Born were born to another man. They were killed was the first five were very young when he died. My dad married my mama. He had five more children. My dad raised all ten of us, because they were very very young when their dad got killed. Basically what he did was, they were very disciplined. Had a seventh grade education. Mom had a seventh grade education, but very bright. One of the ambitions they had they gave us as we were little kids. They had two goals for us. They wanted all of us to be educated, and they wanted to see all ten of us in heaven. They wanted us to be committed to church. Hard work and school. So i had the pleasure of going to school all the way through elementary and high school. I never missed a day. He was mean and tough on us going to school. We had to get up at 4 00 in the morning. Milk the cows. Feed the pigs. Do all of that. Walk one mile from the house on a dirt road and catch the bus at 6 45. You had to do that. It was applied to everybody. Girls and boys. We had the fortune of understanding work very early and going to school very early. That is kind of what that shaped. He said when he bought his first acre of land he was 13 years old. He paid one dollar and 25 cents. It took him six months to make that dollar in 25 cents. The farm we grew up on was part of my mothers side, but he added to the acreage and grew us a great a good farm. Corn. He could not buy any money from farmers administration those days. He created large pieces of farm, and we have peach orchards. Berries and all of that. The cash we made from fruits and vegetables as what he used to buy corn. What was the nature of lewis ville in those days . When i was a little boy there were a lot of folks there. It never has been unincorporated town. It is just a village. I would say when i grew up, two or 300 kids, maybe. What happened is i, most of the kids grew up with me. Migrated and took off dallas, texas, houston, texas and all of those places looking for work. We were the only farm, black farm group in lieu is filled with a farm. All the other kids worked on farms but it was not theirs. They were primarily white farmers. That was hard, because they were not allowed to go to school. They came to school. While there was that come back to work. How did your father manage the farm law by sending you every day to school . What he did was all of us was big enough to do something. My older sisters and brothers. But also, he always law used they were older kids who would drop out of school. He would go get those kids and bring them back and have them work with us. He would pay them at the end of the day. They were excited about that. When i worked on other farms that they didnt own, a lot of times they were put in the books. The problem with that system was they would never make enough money and never worked hard enough to pay to pay off those debts. Then dad would have them come over law. The state fair was taking place. He would say come on over here. Ill give you some work so you could have a few bucks to go to the fair. Thats how that helped out. Why tell me about church. Were they active in the naacp . Why my mother was very active. That stayed very close to the farm. They end and they out. Sunday was the day you could not touch the farm. That was the day you had no choice but to get up and go down the dirty road and go to church. All day long, church. 8 00. 12 00. You went to church in the morning. Then you went to another church, because my mom had a beautiful singing voice. Everybody in the neighborhood wanted to come sing. We would have been the truck and go. If they had a 5 00 meeting we would go to the church. It was, church church, church. I had plenty of church. What was the sense of politics and Race Relations . My mom everybody called my mother vic. When she passed away and they had the name printed jones. A lot of folks at the funeral home said who is this prettiest showns . The undertaker said, Everybody Knows her as vic. When he said that they postponed funeral because we want to come home to that funeral. Thats one word got out it was vic. Hundreds of people came. But mama, she was very active in organizations. The naacp. The magnolia was the closest place. She would go to those meetings and when she would come back, she would talk to the kids at church. They would talk about how we could do better. How they should learn to fix up their own homes. Hostile in when they would have those meetings, she and her sister would hop in the back of your pick up truck and they were gone. There was not a day when she would not go as permission from parents. Get in the struck. Get in the struck. They would go to the meetings. So the kids were good they would jump to the back of the truck and go somewhere. That was her. She was very active all over the place. When she learned about what people were doing she would come back to church and talk to the Church People about what we need to do, is we need to get the men together to do this. Get the women together, because thats the kind of thing she would learn. You know the brown v. Board from montgomery to little rock, especially little rock where you lived. Those things talked a lot about in the house . The one thing i remember was a brown case. There were good marshall and my dad always had this big old radio. It was a powerful we could pick up st. Louis. That is how we kept up with baseball. Always at the radio on. Mr. Thurgood put out on video and on that day, 12 noon, it said all law negro should stand up at noon, because the Supreme Court is about to make an announcement. That announcement and that Supreme Court changed the whole nation. So dad, he went to the Little School where i was going to the school. He went down there and told the teachers about it. He said he had that much politics in his head. People got those radios and everybody was listening for that announcement. He stayed on top of stuff the same way he was the same way about farming. He could not borrow money from the farmers administration, but what he would do if he would keep his eye very close on what white farmers were doing. The wealthier farmers would use it would have the ability to go and get money and get a newer plow. What he did was he would ask those black guys who were working for those white owners, what did you do with that plow . Nothing. I want to see if i can get that plow. I just want that plow. You can have this boat. And he would take it up to the school that we went to, the vocation school, and the kids with the experiment with welding it. And so we would use those plows. So those were accumulations and he didnt have to pay for as part of his farming, he was on top of the farming as well as the political side of things. The fact that your father owned his own firm, how much did that matter, in relation to other members of the black community locally and in relation to maybe how your life unfolded in a sense of how you measured your own possibilities and independents . The first part, on the farm side, with mom and dad had people who lived on other firms, and they had very poor houses, he knew that if we did any kind of work on those houses, they would get tossed off the farm. What he would do, he would have us go and and help them. We would go cut wood and put it on the inside to steal the holes and everything, and that was no cost. And that was something that we, his son had to do. And when and if we i remember one time my brother under me, he took three someone said, you will do so much. And they said take this quarter. I said no, thank you, this is something he wanted us to do for folks. And we went home and dad would say, did you boys take any money . I said, no, sir. And how much money was he going to give you . So he took the quarter and we went to church sunday, he made him take that quarter up to the pulpit and put it in the offering. You could not spend it. And we did that for a lot of elderly people. So he had just that kind of carry. On the other side, i was kind of trained. I was trained to do something pretty good, but i did not see it because dad and mama would go to the school and would have all these talks with the teachers. And what they were talking about, later on i learned from my older sisters and brothers, is that they said gyms, dad and mom is very proud of you, you are real smart. They tell those teachers to push you because you have smarts i learned that a little later. I noticed, i always had to do everything at school. Everything. We would have a school program, we want you to be the mc, we want you to start that group, we want you to be over there, we want you to be over the agriculture program. I had all the assignments. So when i would come home, i did not get a chance to go out and play because i had gotten do all of these things. James, you have to get all of that stuff done, so between feeding hogs and chickens and doing all that it was dark. And i couldnt go play basketball. But i didnt see anything in that. When i got a little further in school, toward the 11th grade, thats when i could see it. We want you to do some marvelous things. And you have the skills, you are smart, you do good work and school, you are going places. That is when they started encouraging me. And then when that happened, i was playing basketball. And this was a real shock to me because we worked hard. Dad wouldnt give you any money. We asked dad, why do other kids come work on the farm . Why do you pay them but you do not pay us . He said, i am saving for hard times. And clara said, well dad, it is pretty hard. He said, no, you do not even know what hard times is. You have close. You dont know what a hard time is. And my older sisters and brothers would write letters and say, how are you doing in school . Senior greats . I was sending migrates and they would send me a dollar. Back in those days are dollar was filthy rich. Im interested, we will talk about everything that is going to happen after you get there in 61, especially in 63, but im curious how much there early sixties, late fifties early sixties, made an impact on you. Little rock in 1957, greensboro in 1960, all of what happened after that. The one big favor, not a favor but one thing that prepared me, prepared me really well for that is that because dad and mama listen to the radios and they paid attention to that kind of stuff. They were really on top of it, and i remember one time mama said to me, son, if you are ever put in that situation, do not turn it down. You go forward with it. And that was a result of what i did not realize was that my mama and my aunt and daddy, in the early days, they had buses come through the small town. And even in those days they were the only black folk that would get on the bus in the front seat and take us with them. And then it kind of came back to me. Oh, we are integrating the bus line. When central hiking through and those were her words. Whenever you get an opportunity to do something for other people, do not be afraid. Because you didnt come from and afraid family. It was dangerous when you all went to your own kind. People do not like that. But you all have been through it and i have seen it. And when the opportunity comes, do not go to the back of the line, you go to the head of the line and be brave about it. They did talk about that. When i went off to school and i had all about in my hand. I wasnt looking for anything, but when i saw when i got to pine bluff and the cities you saw real segregation because there was a sit in. And when you go to the town you are seeing, and when i got there id never seen it. But i wasnt organized and anything. I sought as i went downtown and i saw the holiday inn and all of those. I looked at it and i saw, i only saw black folks if they were meads. That registered in my mind. When i went back home, i share that with them. But he said, well son, if you im not going to tell you what to do. That is what my mama said. If you go somewhere and we were traveling sometime dont you never go through a back door. If whites go through the front door, you go through the front door. I heard that from her. You mentioned a moment ago that your family would go and wager on cotton. Can you tell us more about that background . Kids who lived on a plantation, they would work hard and you have these ten and 12 foot long tracks, when you pick that much cotton, you are getting 60 pounds, 65. Some guys was really good and hit as much as 80. But when they brought that bag to the gym, white people did not let them weigh their own cotton. So they would bring the bags and drop them. And then go back. Now, in my case my dad and mom and aunt and uncle went to the gym. They were gun packing black folks. They would sit right at the gym with a double barreled shotgun and two shells between their fingers. And when we got our cotton, come on, boys, and they would go up there and we would weigh our own cotton. Know the kids who would bring the car into the gym could not withers. We would sit there and watch them, sometimes those bags would be 70 pounds of cotton. And these guys would ask each other, well what did you think . We give or take 41 pounds. Pretty good, oh boy. Give them the benefit of 47 pounds. That is 40 pounds that they were taking away from them. I would sit there on witness that. Now the fun thing was when all of us where there, we felt pretty comfortable because mom it was there with those guns. So when we weigh ours, we would look at the white folk with. How did your family get away with that . Everybody in the surrounding area believes that if they bothered my family, there was a whole lot of killing going to take place. They believed that. Because my brother had been in a real bad rachel situation. I just remember that. He was the only black member that went to a little town called mcneill. He got a job working on the railroad. He was not on the train, he was doing the hard work, putting those spikes and all that to keep the rail. And when he went wherever they went, on the way back, when they got to mcneill, they told him to get off the train because blacks couldnt ride the train through mcneill, it was a small town. And my brother, troy, would not get off the train. Just like my parents, he had his weapon. It was a hard, knocked down fight. He stabbed and cut a whole bunch of white folk and they chased him and shot him up pretty bad. But he got through the woods and all that, so the white people decided they would come to our house and kill him. Mr. Chester waters is the guy who had the little store. He told us, dont you all go over there. You will get killed. So, my dad had some brothers and some cousins, and you had to go through these woods to get over to the farm. And about dark that night, they were coming to get troy. Man, there was so much shooting and people got hit. I heard people scream, i have been hit. What dads and his brothers did, when they were shooting people, they went to them and took their guns. They let them go but they took all their guns. It was kind of known that we werent people to mess with. And there was a lot of them. How old rio . I think it was 68. How old were you then . Eight or nine. Matter of fact so just a kid . I went up to willis fill, my dad made the comment that if we they come down here and mess with me, i am going to kick their butt. That was his exact words. I thought he was talking to me. We it was about a mile and a half, i walked all the way there and told this white guy. , i want to go back home but my daddy i will take care of that later. Four tell me what it was like, the impressions you formed when you arrived in pine bluff to go to school. Also you mentioned that the segregation you saw in a way that you hadnt seen before. That was a very important black institution. When i got to pine bluff. That was my breakfasts my first big city. It was very pretty. He was very exciting. What helped me jumpstart real fast is the school i went to. Oak grove high school. It was a very good school. As a matter of fact itll, they had sent professors at pine bluff law. My brother in milwaukee sent me a letter and said, there is a guy in the vocation school. You go find him. Tell him people that i sent you. Doctor hany. I went there. When i walked into his office he looked up and said, i dont know your name but you are sure one of those jones. You look just like the joneses. Law he was telling me all about the school. He took me on a tour of the campus. He said this is one of my boys. A jones boy. He sweet, kind. He painted a beautiful picture. I want all of you professors to keep eyes on him. He is a good student. Dont be putting him in social studies. He came from a high school that had all of that. He asked me and said, i said he said are you from a small town . You might have to take preliminary courses. What did you have in high school . I said i had algebra. I had trigonometry. I had physics. I had biology. I had chemistry. He said what kind of school did you go to . I said i had a school that was a very good school. As a matter of fact, the principal imported he handpicked teachers from all around to come in from that at that school. It was a school. There were four schools in arkansas. They were built way back in 1931. I think they were its a group out of new york somewhere. They built the schools way back our school opened in 1829. The school was built and they had visions of folks coming, because the school was built with dormitories. People came from other places. They lived on campus. I think the quakers and there were two all black school districts. Mine was one of them. The other one was arkansas city. We had, unlike a lot of other schools, we had books, because a lot of the white schools would give us our their old books. We had good books. We had good teachers. You are describing a personal history that is not very typical for that time. Yes. So when i got to pine bluff, i was very comfortable. I met someone that had been in rasta. He took me around. He introduced me to dr. Marshall. He was a professor on campus. He had another little house right by his house. He asked me and said, do you want to live in the dormitory . I said i have to live somewhere. And the doctor said put him in your household. You will take a liking to this young man. So we started talking. He said you sure know a lot for a country boy. Country kids dont know nothing. We think the city kids know everything. So we started talking. Then he was the one who told me. He said there are some folks that are trying to get a civil rights thing started. They went to smith, and they didnt have no luck there. All those kids were city kids. The parents said no. He said i want you i would like for you to meet those guys. That was in grinch. Law greenish came down grinnich and bill hansen. 20 a few days later we started talking. Law bill said, dying. A lot dang twice. He said this will be a piece of cake for you. But that was not when they were trying to get they said law when we came back to pine bluff, this was a college town. There was a lot of segregation. And here you guys are down here. Youve got all these restaurants and all the black people cant go to them. This city is driven by this university. That is how i met them. Law do you remember more specifically about this group of folks hansen, one black, one white. When we met when we met on, grinnich talked about how he had been involved in labor and union groups a lot. Wind bill hansen talked, he talked about how he had been involved and citizens and things like that. But the first thing bill hadnt said was, we need to organize our students to challenge i didnt even know what mcdonalds was. His take was, i am a white boy and i dont need to be leading. That is what he said. But we need a black person, and youve already done all the stuff. He said, if you went into one of these white restaurants and were rested, what would your parents say . They would come up here and come to the jailhouse. They would say james, is this what you want to do . If i said yes, they would say we will do whatever you need. We will support you and go back home. He said really . I said no. They talked to me long before i knew about this kind of stuff. If you get involved in stuff, and they talked about, dont you ever go through the white neighborhoods. Back doors. Go through the front door where white people go. You go through it as well. He said wow. I share that with them. How mama rode the bus. I didnt know it. To me that is how they were. I remember womack was what what we considered the rich white man. As we got involved, as i got involved, he was talking to mama about how you need to get that boy. He is not where he needs to be. Not running around. Blah blah blah. My mom got the word. He said mama went and jumped in the car with him. Made him take to to get close. Clothing. He said it was freezing cold. And i told him my mom would not do that. Because in little rock that was the issue. They were afraid parents would take them out of school. Did you have any instinct that what might actually end up being a problem would emerge with the folks at the college . That your president would you know. I didnt think that side at all law. I went and look at the hotel that was segregated. I went down there by myself for the first time. To check it out. When i came back, they started talking about how we need to protest these places. I said let me go talk to some students. When i talked to them, i told them what my parents were like, but i also said if your parents are gonna come up here and jump on you, dont go. Dont go. Then, the doctor doctor. He told me i went and met with him. He said i got some Young High School student in towns in high school. The big high school. He said these kids they need to get involved with a guy like you. They are smart but they want to be filled. If they were around you he would change them. So i met with them. I talked to them about my parents and what was life like. They liked that. Oscar i said what were talking about is going here and it may be very violent, but we will be a non violent group. They were all like, no, no there is going to be some fighting oh no. Oh no. Theyre going to knock you down. Youre just going to fall and then get up. Did you think it was a good idea . The non violence. Well, the way i looked at it was if you can be non violent the white people would be very happy to beat you down. They would be very happy to do that, but i felt though, that in spite of that, you could overcome it over a time period. I felt that if i were beaten down, and the other kids were scared and afraid of it, i think eventually they would come around. They did. I think what helped me is i wasnt scared. I was not scared. My knowledge wasnt good enough to feel that i definitely could win doing it right there. But i