And monticellos historic interpretation manager, Brandon Dillard, discuss how depictions of both slavery and jeffersons life have changed over recent decades. Thomas Jeffersons Monticello recorded this program and provided the video. Good afternoon. My name is Brandon Dillard and i am the manager of historic interpretations at monticello. In previous live streams, i am behind the camera reading questions from our audience as they come in, so we can engage with you while we are talking to our first person, interpreter actor bill barker, who portrays Thomas Jefferson. We wanted to do Something Different this week. Given the National Conversation and given that it is all around us, we know 2020 has been a challenging year. Monticello has been closed. We reopened this weekend. And in recent weeks in the united states, millions of people all over the country are actively fighting for equity against different forms of racial injustice, whether it is raciallymotivated Police Violence or raciallymotivated monuments, memories. It is a conversation that we must engage in. Working here at monticello, we are a site for memories. Monticello is a plantation where over 400 people were enslaved. Today, we decided that to have a conversation, we would do something that we havent done. And i am sure everyone knows that when you tune in, you are not actually talking to Thomas Jefferson, you are talking to my friend bill, who portrays Thomas Jefferson. Bill is going to join us today. When he does so, he will be out of character. We talked about this before we would go live, as to how we would best address the subject. We thought perhaps a good idea would be to talk about the challenge of interpreting slavery explicitly. Bill and i, when we talk about this, we recognize that we are both white men, and we are talking about something that impact greatly people of color and black america. This friday is juneteenth, which marks a day of remembrance in this country for the end of slavery. It is a day that all americans should celebrate, knowing that this is an institution that legally ended. But that institution legally ending was not the end of its legacies. Slavery has always existed and slavery still exists, but the kind of slavery that existed at monticello, racebased slavery that developed to the Transatlantic Slave Trade and into the early united states, was inextricably intertwined with developing concept of race, the lasting legacies of which we still struggle with today, and the legacies of which we are still trying to dismantle. We believe, bill and i, that we must engage in this conversation, and monticello is engaging in this conversation and are engaging others to do the same. I was still accept questions online. Bill and i will answer those as best we can, but today, we believe we are going to use this time to invite you all to join us in this, understanding we do have privilege as white men, and as such, the duty to engage in a conversation about all our shared pasts, and help us understand how the history of the past determines who we are today. Bill, we should start with an explanation of what a firstperson interpreter is. What does a firstperson interpreter do, and what you do here at monticello . Thank you, brandon. And thank all of you for coming to talk about, speak with and importantly, to listen, too. Because in my vocation, it is an element of theater. You cannot extricate it from theater. And what is so important to realize in our conversation, this is no mere intermission of a show. This is the reality of our times, past times, and this conversation continues. And in my capacity as an historic interpreter, the theater is as shakespeare said, the thing. The play is the thing, often to spark and to provoke the mind of the king, to help us look at ourselves. Shakespeare in particular succeeds in his plays, to hold up a mirror in which we can see our human nature. And it is none the less in historic interpretation. So my vocation in interpreting Thomas Jefferson, and that is what i have done for nearly 40 years, is to put on the vestments, but also the theater of mr. Jefferson, to help us think and help us better understand our past, particularly who we are as americans, and to engage that conversation, certainly as he would want. You made reference that you have done this for a number of years. Our topic about interpreting slavery, talking about slavery, is so relevant, but it has been an ongoing part of conversations at monticello for quite some time, a Historic Site throughout the world tells us about how it has changed over the years, this interpretation of slavery . Yes, we are talking about it now. We have been, but not for the 40 years in which i have been involved. And imagine, im a child of the 1960s. So i grew up talking about this. And we go in and out of it and in and out of it, but since i began this at Independence Hall in philadelphia, yes, there was mention of slavery, but it was not engaged thoroughly. And im going back 40 years. When i went to Colonial Williamsburg in 1993, williamsburg had already embarked several years upon the discussion of slavery. There was the africanamerican interpretive group at williamsburg, and i welcomed that opportunity to work with them to better explain the story, and enact the story of our history. Monticello embarked at the same time on speaking about slavery and continues, as Colonial Williamsburg and many other living history museums and national Historic Sites across our country continue to speak about this more, engage this, and what is so important, to acknowledge it, to acknowledge it. And struggle with it. We need to struggle with this. A firstperson interpreter is limited to the character in the time that they are to portray. One of the things you and i discussed is a great example, juneteenth, something Thomas Jefferson would not have known about in his life. Can you talk about the challenges of staying in character . A big challenge in interpreting Thomas Jefferson would be for a visitor to say, mr. Jefferson, what do you think about juneteenth, and for mr. Jefferson to reply, what is juneteenth . This allows the visitor, the guest, to explain it to him. So here is a wonderful opportunity to speak with our past and for the past to speak to the future to come to an understanding that mr. Jefferson learns from the future, and with a hope that the future will learn, if you are referring to a time in which we finally ended slavery. What did it take for that to come about . Would mr. Jefferson want to know what it took for that to come about . We know, and what i can talk about in persona, are his predictions what could happen. He did make statements in his letters, and that is my job, to interpret those letters and conversations we know he had interactions with those of his period, but it becomes more of a struggle for him, as it does for us, to ponder what it took, and then for mr. Jefferson to understand what it is to take. You answered a little bit with that question. It makes me think about this, given the limitations of staying in character. There are strategies to get more complete messages across. I work as an interpreter, but not as a firstperson interpreter. I think people would call me a tour guide, but not someone who is bound by the times. Share strategies on how you bridge that gap. There are strategies to help us better understand where we have in, they rest in the reiteration and continued conversation about our nations founding principles. I always prefer to introduce mr. Jefferson as writing what George Washington referred to as the promise, the declaration of independence come as something that does not include anything new or original, that it is the representation of the accumulation of mens eternal history in struggle or liberty. That is considered eternal struggle for liberty in jeffersons time, that has gone on. At the fact that our promise, our declaration, in an expression of the american mind, submits these facts to a candid world. One of my strategies in that introduction is to remind people that we achieved the first nation in the history of man founded upon principle, not upon monarchy, not upon nobility, landed gentry, aristocracy, principles enabling inalienable human rights in nature that every individual is entitled to. Is that the experience of the state . No. But he wrote it, and it is our founding principle, and it is our blueprint, from which we can continue to struggle and have the conversation and pursue that equality. I remind people as a strategy that we brought 13 individual nations together, to remind us that these former colonies were nations unto themselves with differences of religious opinion in one different form or another, with the slavery, the overwhelming experience in many, but not in others, that we brought this all together, e pluribus unum, that three heads are better than two, that a house divided cannot stand. That is an ancient idea in support of unity. And to help us understand that egalitarianism, providing equal opportunity, is not socialism, it is an equal opportunity, it is an opportunity for everyone to be able to achieve the pursuit of their happiness, to be happy. And to understand that freedom is not free, it requires an eternal vigilance in order to reflect upon these founding principles. So those are initial strategies i try to engage at the very beginning, and then the conversation will continue. We are starting to get questions from the audience. This is a great one. Student groups are by far the most diverse, ethnically, racially, economically, groups that visit monticello. In normal times, we received tens of thousands of students each year. The questionnaire online wants to know how you go about addressing sensitive topics like slavery in front of your audience, particularly children . The young are very sensitive to begin with, and have a great common sense and understanding. Out of the mouth of babes. And we are better to engage this conversation if only to begin with those who have been thinking about it that they can continue to think about it and engage it. For a student to ask mr. Jefferson about slavery opens the door. It is very sincere, very innocent, it is obvious. And we approach it and we speak about it, we speak with and we listen to. So i welcome students. I have been going out to schools for more than 40 years. It is the most satisfying work, particularly when we greet them here at monticello, as i was able to do at Colonial Williamsburg. This is how we touch our past. This is how we repair our future. So these are open opportunities in persona from our past to speak about our future. Zach wants to know, do you find people assume your views are Thomas Jeffersons views . Is it hard for people to differentiate between you . And do you ever wish you could answer as bill other than as Thomas Jefferson . Of course, i wish i could answer as bill. But in my persona, i am in my job, i am in my vocation, in my duty to teach history and interpret history, but certainly not justify mr. Jeffersons opinions. I expose his opinions. I speak about his opinions. But i also speak about his achievements and i speak about his vision. And most importantly, to reveal that he changed his mind as he grew older, to help us understand we all change our minds as you grow older. You read jefferson and he will let you know what he once thought this, and i now think that. And it has helped me to keep in touch with him and particularly to help me better understand how, day to day, what challenges us challenges preconceived ideas. This is a very challenging one, and a couple of people have asked it, you said it is not your job to justify jeffersons writings. John asked about the notes on the state of virginia and any scholar knows where he describes his opinion on race is the crucial element understanding slavery. You made me think of this earlier when you said it has changed the way we talk about slavery. Even in my short time in the field, i have only done this 10 years, but the way we talk about race at Historic Sites and in Public Discourse has changed. 10 years ago, systemic racism, understanding white privilege, these were not broadly known conversations outside academic discourse. Talk about notes on the state of virginia and another point someone brings up, talking about how as public historians, we can help a 21st century audience who finds this is morally abhorrent, and still understand the context for it. Can you talk a bit about how jefferson would write about things, without justifying what jefferson wrote . If someone, and they have many times, asked mr. Jefferson about his notes on the state of virginia, you will certainly see remorse, to begin with. You will certainly see an effort perhaps to dodge speaking further about the question, but he is not going to dodge it. He is going to approach it. At his does and as he does later in life, he apologizes for. He does it in a letter to a man who becomes a wellknown french abolitionist in 1809, but even this remark is not meant to be an excuse. It is a revelation of the struggles that mr. Jefferson was going through, as we continue to go through when we read those notes. The further revelation is the fact that we know these now, we know jeffersons notes on northern virginia. He did not write them to be published extensively. He wrote the notes collectively in answer to a questionnaire put out by someone to the colony of virginia and all the former colonies so that france could become better aware of the information, animal, vegetable, mineral, particularly to invest in the American Revolution. So jefferson had notes already and gathered them together when he went to and send in, he had them published in range privately and handed down to gentlemen of scientific curiosity. It got out of their hands, it got published, and there was. So there is a background. It is not a justification, it is a revelation of them. A further revelation within these notes, jefferson makes bold statements not only about race, but also religion. He makes bold statements about habits and customs. He makes bold statements about particular proper names that he alone has ascribed to elements of nature, flora and fauna. He answers much of the questions from de marbay, he answers them with questions, too. So here is the revelation of the scientist, who writes very early on, be so old to question everything, follow truth wherever it should lead us. Again, these are not justifications, they are revelations of this information and we struggle with it as we should, and he did, and we try to reconcile it, can it be reconciled . I have never been able to. We got a comment that is very relevant to what you said and the conversation at hand. I will preface it by saying this is an emotionally half in charge subject for a emotionallycharged subject for a lot of people and for our facebook viewers, look at the comments. People have strong feelings about this at those comments run across the board, and are particularly addressed ports this history and the way we talk about this history. Some people clearly say that we are trying to tear down the history of a great man by remembering slavery. Others say that we are trying to celebrate a singular narrative of a white man. And we welcome that discourse. Dylan asks this, and i think it is very urgent, when you are out there, you can see these emotions in people. How do you help mitigate that while you are in character, helping audience members grapple with their own emotions . I only hesitate because i am looking for the word i use frequently in persona. This is the duty of an american citizen. It is our duty. It is we the people who hold the reins of our government, we the people who are responsible for the american conversation. This is exactly the Foundation Upon which the American Revolution was engaged, as the british were wont to play on the surrender feel at yorktown, the event that turned the world upside down with the recognition by john locke and others that a monarch is not put on the throne by divine right. The motto of the royal family in great britain, you can still see it on the coat of arms at the Governors Palace in Colonial Williamsburg, god is my right, i am here by divine right. No. It is the people, the people by which a leader emanates. If there were no people, government would govern over no one. So it is the people that provide not only the purpose, but the power for government this has always been our conversation. This has always been our conversation. And history will tend to it in one way during one period, and in another way through another, and in my opinion, we continue to evolve in this to be able to work this out. That is my hope. That is why i do this. Retirement is not a word in my vocabulary, nor was it a word in mr. Jeffersons vocabulary. At 65 years old, he devoted his time to found a university. We know that the coals brothers approached him on ending slavery and he replied to them as he entered his eighth decade, and this is on the shoulders of the young generation. This is not an excuse, but a revelation on his thought on the subject. Again, this is our duty. This is a necessity, what we must do as people hold the reins of government. And thank god we have a system in our government with our constitution, what George Washington referred to as a guarantee of our promise, the declaration of independence, system of government, the first line of which is, we the people. What a wonderful honor and wonderful obligation, in my opinion. You spoke about the history of history, the idea history is a set of facts is not exactly right. The more we learn about history, the more he learned about history, is that it says almost as much about the time it is written as it does about the time it is trying to understand. There is that aspect of jeffersons history we should address when it comes to talking about slavery. It is one of the reasons way jeffersons history in the history of monticello is a compelling lens, and that is the fact that jefferson fathered children with a woman he owned as property. Monticello has, for years, addressed what this relationship between Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson meant, so much so we grapple with relationship. We talk about what it means. We talk about how any conversation of consent between master and slave could exist, and how we will never know much about that feeling one way or another. But this revelation of jefferson as hemingschildrens father happened 22 years ago. There was a dna study. The dna study did not prove Thomas Jefferson was the father, and no one ever claimed it did. The dna study provided a significant data point, a piece of corroborating evidence with which historians changed perspective. What was it like for you . You were interpreting Thomas Jefferson at the time. Talk for a minute about how that news spread and what peoples reactions were. I remember distinctly in september 1997, there was a seminar here at monticello. The historians and interpreters of jefferson sites, Independence Hall, the jefferson memorial, the National Park service was represented also, williamsburg was there, i was there as well. And in our collective conversation, it was mentioned that the dna study, in the process for several years, was soon to be revealed in its final statement. So, we want you to understand that this is going to come about in our studies and conversation. And we all wondered when. And it came out on the front page of the Washington Post sunday edition i think on the first sunday of november 1997. I was walking to the Capitol Building in williamsburg to have a program, and people were gathered around saying, mr. Jefferson, have you seen this, have you seen this, what is it . I read it and i remember saying, i will follow science wherever it leads us. That was my first response, and i was wondering the same time, what would this lead to in the group of people there . It led to somebody making a remark that was politically explosive. And there then began an engagement amongst all the people there, and they forgot mr. Jefferson was part of it, and i was able to turn around and go off to my program. That was the beginning. It has never ended. And we know mr. Jefferson never said anything about it, but what i just mentioned, the revelation i will follow science wherever it should lead us, is what has brought us further into this conversation. Where will science go from here and beyond . Dna is one of the most remarkable elements of science that still continues in its further perfection. It is extraordinary, and what does it show . Something jefferson and many others were discussing in his day, are we all interrelated . Are we all, as the natives suggest, a family of man across the globe . There are many who are cautious to allow their dna to be dated, and i find it the most marvelous thing to help us understand that we are all connected. I even question race. We are all one race. That is a great segue for this next question. Because it is true, and this is something we often see with his interest monticello, this conversation about what race means. A dna test cant tell you your race, right . Because race isnt scientifically based. Race is a social construct. It means race was created by human beings to categorize other human beings, and of course that happened during the Transatlantic Slave Trade. When we look at that and we have that conversation, we can easily say race does not exist scientifically, but politically, it very much does. And the reality of how people are treated because of the color of their skin is different. I have known about you and the work that you do for years, since i started in this, and you are very well respected. I knew you had done a lot of reading and studying, but when you came here and started working with us, i was blown away at the amount of knowledge that you have. So you have been a student of history for a long time. People ask this, so i am going to ask you to address it. Slavery and racism today, are they connected . They certainly are. Of course they are. I remind people, in persona, that though jeffersons paternal line had been settled in virginia from the early 17th century, though his maternal line was settled in virginia in the mid 17th century, but that does not make jefferson any the more american than those who continued to arrive here to make for a better life for themselves and their families. I hope people remember that that we were colonies of england, it was not only the english men coming here, that many were escaping the kingdoms of italy, germany, and jefferson writes when he is sailing down the rhine, mr. Madison, i believe next to the english, the germans make up the greatest version of our population. Well, in virginia, jefferson should have thought, in williamsburg i have known for 20 years, every other face on gloucester street is africanamerican, that the great population of virginia is nearly 50 africanamerican of the time he is going to write the declaration of american independence. So i remind people as you talk about when their ancestors may have arrived, what about the africanamerican . The first ship bearing africanamericans sailed into Chesapeake Bay in 1619, and that was not of their own free will. They were slaves. And they had been here many generations already. At the point is, in the founding of our nation, we began to realize before the American Revolution again, that we were becoming less and less british and more and more american. And then, the problem begins. Because who are representing americans . The white male freeholder, 21 years of age or older. Jefferson, that is his society. That is what is governing our new nation, and continues to govern our new nation, even when we have 22 states before jefferson passes away. Generally, throughout our country, it is the white male freeholder, meaning someone who owns outright his property, who has the vote, who has the say. Look at our history and you see that the fitting of states, and this is a result of the northwest ordinance, finds one from the north and the next one is going to come from the south, and then after that, one from the north and the next from the south, and this can until we have a question we have to grapple with, admitting north of massachusetts, known as the maine, and missouri, that falls distinctly in the west. How do we balance this, who is going to provide the answer . The white male freeholder, compromising, kicking the can. And that why when we begin this conversation. Jefferson wrote to one of the first two senators in maine, i think jonathan holmes, this could be a fire bell in the night it could call the knell of our union and i think i creator i will not live and have to see it is he knows all too well that i will spend the rest of my days weeping for my grandsons who have gotten to have forgotten entirely the principles of our declaration. That is one generation between the Founding Fathers and those who contend that gettysburg. One generation. There was an ancient adage jefferson knew well, man is only one generation removed from barbarism. If we forget, we fall backward. What if we had a universal system of education before jefferson passed away . Where the child of massachusetts as well as virginia, the child in the missouri territory, let alone the child in georgia and connecticut, could all be learning these founding principles at the same time, grappling and understanding, but wait a minute, it is still only the white male freeholder . Women should certainly not be allowed to vote. Yes, systemic racism is still with us, despite everyone having that opportunity to vote. Or does everyone have that opportunity, and freely able to attend to it . This ongoing conversation, the National Conversation as well, reminds me of something James Baldwin wrote 60 years ago, this country is celebrating the end of the civil or 100 years too soon, celebrating 100 years after the war, 100 years too soon. And yet you are talking about this long, ongoing struggle, and it is so broad and it impacts so many people in different ways, women and American Indian people, other people of color, all these conversations, for people, people who dont own their own land, they intersect in different ways. And it is an ongoing conversation i hope will continue to have. We have one last question today. What is your hope for Historic Sites and interpreters like yourself . What role can you play in this conversation . Reminding us of who we are as americans, reminding us of that. You made the statement, this is an emotional conversation, and it ought to be an emotional conversation. Because being an american is the most wonderful experience. Where else in the history of the world . That is why we continue to be peopled by so many people that come here. Please come to a naturalization ceremony, monticello offers that, Independence Hall offers that come and watch people take the oath to our nation while they forgo any further allegiance to their old nation, that they may someday have to take up arms against the nation of their birth, and they realize that what they are learning about our history and articulately slavery, is already our charge, and has been since we started this nation. And that i hope and i know has been the pursuit and the efforts of Historic Site, national Historic Sites, to remind us of this great honor as an american, remind us of our duty to could you to struggle with it and make for a more perfect union. Thank you, bill. Thank you all for joining us today. I would like to close by saying this conversation is pertinent to us at monticello, it is pertinent to the world. Monticello itself tries to foster these dialogues. We invite you to join us in these conversations. We have opened again to the public and hope that in coming months, we will see better changes, see some normalcy returned to our country as we advance hopefully through scientific defense against this disease. We also hope to foster this kind of Civic Engagement that is so essential to self governance, and a fight for equity. And we believe monticello is a place that can allow that because of what it is. It is a lens through which we can understand how this country can exist based on the highest ideals of freedom and equality, while being created on some of the most devastating realities of American Indian removal and the enslavement of people of african descent. And this continuing fight for equity, equality and justice, it is most american. And the active participation in our governance civil discourse and protest is also a duty. American history tv on cspan three explore people and events to tell the american story, every weekend. Coming up this weekend, saturday, at ten eastern on real america, 75 years ago, august 15th 1945, mark the end of world war ii. We will feature three films about the state of affairs immediately after the war. Road to democracy, here is germany and a ceiling on your home. And on sunday, at 6 pm eastern, on american artifacts, a two part program and African Americans in congress. U. S. House of representatives, historian Matthew Walsh news, and how farewell it uses selection of artifacts to tell the history of a man African Americans in congress. Then at a pm eastern, a look at past political conventions except the speeches by president ial nominees, including bill clinton, and george h. W. Bush. Exploring the american story, watch American History tv, this weekend on cspan three. Next, 6 Million Institute secretary lonnie bunch, and philanthropist david reuben stein discuss the role of slavery in antebellum washington d. C. The white house historicals, ocean host of this event at the st. Johns church, across Lafayette Square from the white house, in recognition of their in mishit of slavery in the president s neighborhood. As we begin tonights program, please welcome st. John