Service. They had been raised with the sense that they had a duty and a responsibility to serve the american people, and they both did, in very, very extraordinary ways. And you know, i think john f. Kennedy the inaugural address remains one of the drof greatess of alltime. I have to agree and say fdr in the events of his time as president shaped the nation, shaned that generation in profound ways. President kennedy, even nixon, is only three years older than kennedy and later president bush, Herbert Walker bush, is only six years older than kennedy and world war ii shapes them. So many other kennedy siblings serve in the war, either in the military or in civilian roles, and i think president kennedy would have encouraged us, were he alive today, to always value Public Service and consider Public Service in its many forms as a way to strengthen the nation and make the world better for the people around us. Alan, a great place to end todays conversation. Thank you for joining us. Doing a great job and have a great year. Always look forward to talking and hope to viscid hyde park soon. Thats it for today and hope to see you again in the future. Youre watching American History tv every weekend on cspan3 explore our nations past. Cspan3, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service, and brought to you today by your television provider. Weeknights this month we feature American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight, a look at programs from the kansas city public library. In kansas city, missouri. We begin with a talk about the life of hole w50d artist mill vent tat trick. Ofo sdutsing lady from the black lago lagoon, watch tonight. Beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan3. The president s. Available in paperback, hard cover and ebook from Public Affairs presents biographies of every president inspired by conversations with noted historians about the leadership skills that make for a successful presidency. In this president ial election year, as americans decide who should lead our country, this collection offers perspectives into the lives and events that forged each president s leadership style. To learn more about all of our president s and the books featured historians visit cspan. Org slash thepresident s. Available isnt paperback, hard cover and ebook, wherever books are sold. Next on the presidency, a conversation about portraying Abraham Lincoln at the stage. Fords theater director paul tret trault talkoetreault. Joined by actors david selby and Craig Wallace who played lincoln respectively. Ford theater provided this video. Today we are happy to welcome playwright Richard Herson and david selby and Craig Wallace. All created work that appeared on the ford stage, too many times to count. So were thrilled to have them with us today. Im also, i would like to say weve been watching demonstrations unfold in our neighborhoods and across the nation as we plan for the future of fords theater, we know we have work to do. We commit to using our platforms that tell stories, that speak to the present moment with courage, inspiration, healing and, of course, Abraham Lincoln legacy. Today were talking with Richard Craig and david about a specific play they took part necessary sacrifice ford theater premiered in 2012. Ford commissioned richard to write the play to celebrate the opening of our center for education and leadership in 2011. This play explores the relationship between president Abraham Lincoln played by david selby and the abolitionist frederic doupg lis played by Craig Wallace. It seems particularly important this week to consider the leadership of these two great americans as they helped our country find its way through one of our greatest crises. So i want to start this morning, this afternoon, just by first of all welcoming you all. Thank you so much for being with us from across the country. California and d. C. We go coast to coast here. I want to start with richard. Tell us a bit more about the play, richard, how and why did you put the play together . Okay. Basically its the story of two meetings that happened at the white house during the civil war between Abraham Linken and Frederick Douglass one summer of 19 1 1863 and the next year 1864 gavgly went at it how to basically get the country through this crisis in a way that was best for everybody, and then secondly, when the crisis was over, try to envision what kind of country we wanted, when the war was over, because we couldnt wait until then to start shaping it. So first its about douglas trying to convince lincoln to make the war an abolition and then lincoln realizing they have to face implications of that. What its going to mean in the terms of black citizenship and equal rights. Kind of a push pull between the two of them. Douglas is an outsider, instigator, agitator. Agitating on what he believes needs to lincoln an insider saying harder than you think because of of politics involved and institutions involved. He said the play was commissioned the year that the new center for education and leadership was going to open across the street. Already had done a couple things for the theaters. A couple short things. One destiny. Some of you know. I got an email in fall of 2010 asking if id be interested in writing a play for 2012. The thing you need to realize is that commissions often come with parameters. And there are things the theater wants you to do, when you write the play. Almost like an assignment. So one destiny. Lincoln assassination two hours, two actors, go. I happened to find my assignment for this play in original emails. We would like it to be exploration of leadership, focus on lincoln, three to five characters with a simple set. Like one of the characters to be africanamerican if possible and go into rehearsal in one year. [ laughter ] okay . Specific, but not specific enough. No pressure. It is what it is. The funny thing was, the thing that jumped outs me in that was the fourth thing. Wed like one character to be africanamerican. I didnt want that character to be minor. I didnt want that character to be a servant. Didnt want that character to be one of those multiple roleplaying people playing three to five parts. I wanted that character to be a legitimate, dramatic character in the play. And funny. When i look back at emails, my first email response back was, Frederick Douglass . First one that came to mind. Kind of chewed on that. Kicked it around a while and then bless your heart, sarah, i remember sarah jennings, director of education mentioned a book calmed the radek many and the republican. The radical and the republican by james oaks. Okay . And the subtitle is Frederick DouglassAbraham Lincoln and the triumph of antislavery politics. I got to the part they met the first time and said, thats it. I have characters. I have situation. I have theme. Ip have setting. I thfocus. I have focus. So now its, go. And that well, let me richard, let me turn back a minute and before i do that i want to bring david and craig in to the conversation here. So, david, you have played lincoln in many, many venues all across the country. And you had played lincoln for fords theater previous to this production, and our production commemorated the bisen ten yams the heavens were hung in black another play we commissioned. You played lincoln in numerous places. What made you sort of what drew you to this play . What made you feel like this play was worth your bringing lincoln back to the stage . Well, i think because of the relationship between douglas and lincoln. And how important they were to each other. I just thought that, then when i read the play, and ive had this same reaction in this last, you know, days leading up to now. Going back, reading it again. I still had my script. In my in my folder right here. And i have my notes and my lining and my comments, and you know, everybodys notes or whatever that pertained to especially that pertained to lincoln, but i i just i dont know. It just spoke to me. Paul, it spoke to me in a way th that it just goes back to what richard said. I found that here were two equals. That had ironically, in a certain way, not the same upbringing, but very similar. They were both, you know, not particularly well educated, in a formal education sense. Do douglass with knew was a slave. Lincoln was you know, born and raised a little bit down in kentucky, and then they moved up to illinois, and his life, he was driven sump as douglass and was was driven to i dont know, to do something. They just had an energy and they werent people that, you know they would compromise. But they were, they remembered why they were doing what they were doing. To better make the place, make the world a little better. And if they could do that, thats, that was it, and i just, it just spoke to me in those ways. Terrific. All right. Now, craig, of course, you had a very different, ill say different, very unique journey coming to necessary sacrifices. And im not going to set it up anywhere, but why dont you just tell us a little about your journey and how you got here, and i know it was, it was short and rapid, but ill let you go and tell us. Well, i was in rehearsal for a production of to kill a mockingbird in our first week of rehearsal and i get a call from kristen fox. She says to me, would you be willing to leave that show and come to fords and play Frederick Douglass in our production of necessary sacrifices. Your current frederick douk liss douglass had taken ill and you were about to go to tech. Long store short, arrived thursday, and that next week had an audience. It was exciting and terrifying all at the same time. Yes. But thanks to everybody at fords and david in particular, and richards patience, i got to know the play, learn the play, and ultimately do it, and enjoy doing it. Yeah. Well, craig, i mean you were not only sort of its one thing just to step in and, well, im just going to plop in and fit in the here, but you not only came from afar and dropped in and what a lifesaver for us, but you actually, embodied the character and the role so brilliantly. I mean, you really, by the end of that were all thinking, oh, my god. I mean, could we have ever imagined anyone else doing this play . And watching you and david onstage was really just a treat and a dream, and just a great, a great place to go, and so, you know, whirlwind for you, but thank you. It was already strong going in. They had already built it. I just moved my stuff in. With a, if i remember right, correctly, with a script or a performance or two. James kronzer, i believe, our set designer. Uhhuh. He made me this book, and the script was written in this beautiful book with parchment paper. So it looked like Frederick Douglass was carrying around, you know, this period book when, in fact, it was my script [ laughter ] it all worked. It all worked and really was not only, you know, sort of a beautiful production and i think the audience felt that way, but one that was actually very popular with audiences and people, here we are, what . Eight years after we produced the show, and people still talk about necessary sacrifices. Ip think part of it is that, you know, we know that douglass and lincoln were contemporaries. We know that they were, you know, in the sort of, in washington at the same time, but we dont often think about, oh, they actually interacted. And i think thats one of the things that keeps this play so interesting and intriguing to audiences, but one of the questions i wanted to talk to you, richard, was, you know, one of the things that i think fords has always been so successful at is kind of this intersection of history and theater. And so you talk about the two meetings that Frederick Douglass had with lincoln at the white house. So that is fact that douglass, you know, went to the white house on two occasions,meetings with lincoln. What else do we know about those two meetings . Almost nothing. Which is why its great for a dramatist. Because its wide open at that point. You do have a responsibility to the time and to the people bep say that. All we know, actually, pretty much everything that we know about it, firsthand is from douglass. Because he wrote a couple of letters. He mentioned the first meeting in a speech. Very proud to go out and speak and tell about stories. He was a storyteller. Feeling lincoln and how he felt to go to the wuhite house. He wrote about it extensively in his third autobiography and by that time boosting up his image. Lincoln never wrote an autobiography or spoke about it. All we know what douglass said and contextual things we can find out about policy at the time. So i had just the barest bones that there were these two meetings. They did happen. I did Historical Research to find out about those meetings, but obviously no one was in the room. So you cant know what they said. It wasnt recorded. Thats why i say the intersection is drama. Has to be drama, but you do have a sense of history kind of hanging over back here. Right. Youre not outraging it too much. Its really an interesting box to be in. Right. Historically. Listen, we have a very special treat today that craig and david have agreed to read a scene from the play. And im going to let richard set up the scene and give us a little bit of synopsys. I want to sort of remind our audiences that this is a reading that we gave you know, the script to craig and david, or sort of gave them the excerpt just a couple days ago. And certainly theyre going to read it for us. Richard, will you set up the scene were going to see and then let these guys show us their amazing prowess of two great men. Okay. Setup. So its 1863, summer after the emancipation proclamation and one of the elements, black men accepted into the United States army for the first time and douglass became a passionate recruiter for that. His sons were the first two to sign up in the 54th massachusetts, because he felt this is our moment. Once we get that gold button on our jacket and get that muss t kitt in our hands, fight for the nation they will never be able to deny equality and even though getting half the pay of whites and never become officers, at least we have a chance and was a very successful recruiter and then they went off to fight. Soon as went off to fight and the in battles south issued orders any black troops captured either shot or sent into slavery. Absolutely brutal. Not to be treated like regular prisoners. The word from lincoln was silence. That did it for douglass. He was now, Everything Else is problematic. I am not signing up another man to go fight for this unless i get support, backup from the white house. He went to washington. And he got into see secretary stanton. Pumped it to him. Stanton, didnt exactly blow him off, offered commission in the army to go recruit, essentially saying, be quiet. Since he was right next door, he went to the white house, unannounced, to take it up with lincoln and sent up his card, lincoln brought him in and just before the scene in his motion folksy humorous of prairie politician way, lincoln is kind of, talked douglass down, so he thinks. About the pay promotions. Lincolns thinking, great. Go back and recruit black troops, all going to thanks for stopping by, and then this all right, gentlemen. Well i will be grateful to have you recruiting. Its good to talk with you, mr. Douglass. Theres something else. Go on. Suppose i put on that uniform with those eagles shining on every button. Go to the Mississippi Valley and suppose in the course of those efforts i should be captured by the rebels. You know what Jefferson Davis has decreed. Yeah. One moment. A negro captured while fighting for the union is a dead man. At the very least, sold into slavery, no matter his rank, whether a freed man or runaway. I know. What youre driving at. Douglass. And you wrong me. You pay them double, make every colored soldier a general, but if they have no protection protection . Youre talking about retaliation. Killing seven prisoners, answering murder with murder. Is the alternative is answering murder with silence. Oh not so fast. Pay and promotion is fine. I dont like it, but i understand. But those black men who joined your army are my responsibility. And when they fought like heroes at fort hudson, add militants bend tied up and shot or stabbed or beaten to death and nothing not a word came from the president of the United States you dont want protection. You want retaliation. You want revenge. I want justice its not justice to kill a man for something he didnt do. Only because the prisoners youd have to shoot might be rebels, but they are white. Isnt that it . Well, that is surely what the country will say. We knew lincoln would get to this. Now white men are to be killed. Are to be killed by niggers. Nevertheless, i have ordered it. Against every bit of black better judgment. When . Ten days ago. For every soldier the United States killed in violation of the laws of war, a rebel soldier should be exkated. And for every one enslaved by the enemy, a rebel soldier shall be placed in hard labor until the others shall be released. I didnt know. More killing will lead to less, i dont know. But the army seems to agree with you. Can you guarantee that this policy will be carried out . Why do you doubt it . Because excellency with all due respect you have a penchant for pra chiz. For compromise. Never mind. I know what you think of me. You serm filled your newspaper full of it for all to read. Most sad and disheartsing feature of our present military situation is not the varieties disasters experienced by our armies and navies but the tarny hesitating vacillating policy of the president of the United States that is not precisely what i meant. Oh yeah. Looks damn precise to me. And, here. An administration without a policy is an administration without brains. Since while a thing is to be done, it implies a known way to do it, and he who processes his ability to do it but cannot show how it is to be done, questions his own imbecility. I wasnt aware you had a subscription. I dont. But thats hardly the way to, to get me to buy one. I wrote that when enanim emancipation was still a question. Now you know the answer. Did i not do what i said i would do . So far as it goes. But i did it. And no man can say that having once taken a position i have contradicted it or retreated from it. I may go slow, and i may find roundabout ways to get where im going, but i get there. And in the meantime people suffer. You neednt lecture me on suffering. There are dispatches on this table that would make you shudder i read them every day. I would stop every bit of it if i could. Jefferson davis issued his order when the first colored regiments were formed. Why didnt you order retaliation on the same day . Because the people, the people had to accept it first. That is why i have such doubts. The day they stop accepting it, may be the day you stop enforcing it, mr. Douglass, i have issued my order and i expect it to be followed. If you find that tardy in hesitating im sorry, but i can only go as far and as fast as the people of this country let me. That is not leadership. It is in a democracy. Understand something. The suffering of any soldier cuts me to the core, but there can be no progress where colored soldiers are concerned until the country heals the same way. Awful as it is. The people need to be as moved by the suffering and the gallantry of negro troops as they were by that at antigo or shiloh. Now, i did not send your volunteers into battle intending for them to be intending for th to be butchered afterwards. But it happened. And what it were not so, having happened in the cause of bringing the country along, those men at fort wagner, yes, i read those reports too. They became necessary sacrifices to that end. So thats it . They died to make a point. Not at all. But if there is a point to be made, is that the one you yourself would make . Then you may keep your commission. I will give you no more necessary sacrifices until you can tell me which ones you consider unnecessary. Im sorry to have taken your time excellency. God bless you. Bravo. Bravo. This is just a small taste of what this play is about which is these two, you know, monumental historical characters in our history and their relationship. And you can see the tension between douglass and lincoln in the scene, but i think as most of us know, there was that tension throughout their lifetime. But all of you can join in chime in here. Is that douglass was one of lincolns most one of lincolns biggest supporters is probably the wrong word. After lincoln died douglass always entoned lincoln because he knew that lincoln was on the right side. Am i right, richard, there . I think so. I mean, he knew he went farther than others. I dont think he had ever felt that he had gone far enough. But relatively speaking, i think he did alaud lincoln as far as he went. And i think that would have continued. If lincoln had not died, i really do believe that relationship would have continued over the next i think we would have had douglass back. I think he would have asked him you know that phrase of, the stone that sharpens the knife, you know that phrase. I think of douglass as the stone that kept sharpening lincolns knife. Lincoln was not sharp to begin with, but he needed to be pushed and guided and the fact that i think they were both that they did see each other. I think what you said earlier was right. They recognized something of themselves in the other and thats why they were able to listen and not, you know, i thought about the scene the other day when we were talking about it. It would have been so easy for lincoln to simply say, no, im not going to see him. The most famous black man in america just showed up outside of your door and i have a line of people to see. It would have been very easy to say, im not going to see him. Or brought him in whatever the 19th century equivalent of a photoop, thanks for dropping by. But he brought him in and listened. I didnt mean they agreed and i didnt mean they didnt have differences, but they respected each other enough to listen to what each other had to say about where they were going. I think i think i just revisiting your script. Just reading it. It strikes me that lincoln had a great way of massaging douglasss shoulders so that he could relax and they could talk to each other. I think we lost your sound. Am i not with you . Can you hear me . I can hear you. Can you not hear me . I got you. Maybe its yes, i can hear you. Great. You know what i mean, in the beginning of this play after he i need to be after he talks to sterns, you know, douglass goes in there ready for a fight. Yeah. But lincoln has a way of making him breathe so they can still have the argument but thats where the listening actually comes in. Which i think is great. Yeah. I agree with you. I think that thats when we were talking about lincolns personal style, everybody talked about when you read about him, his way of disarming people, to bring you along and i think youre right. It could have been extremely confrontation. Also, hes the president. He could have said, i have no time. Go. And whats really interesting to me is after the first meeting when all of this happened the second meeting of the year later, it was lincoln who invited douglass. He issued the invitation because he wanted to talk to him again about what was happening in the country and where we were going at that point a year later. And so i think that he i think he really respected douglasss honesty about all of this because you can be surrounded by all kinds of yes men and douglass was not going to not tell him the truth. You need to hear this and i have the credibility, the number slavery got me the credibility. And in my life experience, what have i done in my life, its gotten me the credibility to stand to you mantoman and have this out. Sorry about that. I could hear your conversation. I like you guys having a conversation without me. Craig, talk a little about and this is actually a question for both you and david. Ill start with craig. Sort of playing such a historic figure, just in general, but also playing that historic figure in fords theater. Well, you know, every time i step on fords theater stage, its an amazing experience for me just knowing the history and the fact that i have a role there. Its interesting because i came into the process late, i learned the stuff i learned about Frederick Douglass i learned once we were up and running, stuff i was reading in the dressing room. Anything that richard would share during tech. So what i did was, i just read the play and i understood what the characters objectives were, i understood what he wanted, what he was trying to get and the listening. And so i guess what im saying is i didnt i played richards Frederick Douglass. I didnt come in with an idea of who Frederick Douglass was because i didnt do the research on all of that. I read the script and i built the character from there. Whats your take . Obviously slightly different because we know that lincoln, you know obviously lincoln in fords theater is several levels up there. And you had played lincoln at fords theater before. But im sure every time that you think about lincoln or speak lincolns words at fords, it must have a sort of unique resonance. Yes. Unique resonance that i can get very emotional about. So i have to pull in my emotions especially when i look up at the stage and i look up at where the lincolns were seated and i think about that theater. I think those times. I think about how long it took fords theater, and it wasnt their doing, to bring lincoln to the stage in a play such as richards. And speaking of richards play, and this is all ill say, having reread it again a couple of times, it is so vital and it speaks in its way to what this country is going through. Richard, why dont you tell us a little about that now. I know that we this is obviously a session that we had scheduled some time ago before all of the events of the last ten days or so. But i mean, here we are talking about a play about these two extraordinary figures, these powerful, you know, figures and clearly black and white and lincoln and douglass on stage, the power that had, tell us, richard, about what that play meant and that respect eight years ago and how it resonates today still or how it speaks to the issues that were dealing with today. Thats a tough one because i i get i get weary of plays that try to speak to a time. Im sure its just me. I dont think that theater is necessarily a very good newspaper. Unless its designed to be that. Thats not what your play what intended to do. Thats whats ironic about the whole thing. Exactly. You write the work at what youre feeling at that time. If i wrote it now, im sure it would be different because of the times and me and you try to tell the story as honestly as you can and to get inside of it and hopefully it works in the time it was written. Hopefully then it works later on or then it may not. I think there were certainly forces the force that is were seeing now are not new. They didnt happening two weeks ago. Its been going on for a very long time. And those things were present albeit in different forms ten years ago and there were different people involved so on and so forth. But when i was reading douglass, especially, douglass wrote volumes. His writing some of the most amazing writing you will ever read about this country. What caught me then was i think the thing that does exist. It takes on different forms and reactions. They both loved this country very much. They both they were both patriots in the best sense of the word. They differed as to what needed to be done about that. But lincoln loved this country. And he felt responsible for the whole country. He says i was born in kentucky, i was raised in indiana, i live in illinois and now its my responsibility to take care of all the people of the United States. And Frederick Douglass said every stripe on my back testifies of my right to be here, the grave of my child testifies to my right to be here. We love this country. We believe in this country. And we are not leaving this country. Its a line from the play. And so were in this. What do we do . How do we solve that . And that question was interesting and vital to me ten years ago and if its interesting and vital to me now, its because the confluence of things that has happened since. But that question still remains, were in a crisis, how do we get out of it, and what is the country we want when were done. Thats what both lincoln and douglass had visions of that. And so how do we make that happen . How do we make that happen . Anything to add . Yeah. Which is why the play resonates today because as i was reading it again, i was thinking this is i think people would enjoy seeing this. These two men together, these two patriots, not brothers in arms, brothers in thought, in vision, in faith, all of this stuff trying to figure this stuff out. Look outside, just down the treat, people are trying to figure it out. You know the its so interesting in the way lincoln explains politics to douglass is fascinating, you know. Sure, you want me to just do it, but its not that easy. Things have to the way that he lays it out, its just its the type of things that i think are happening are questions that people have on their minds right now. And i think whats so great i often think of this play as a love story. [ laughter ] because i because i think whats so great about your piece is that its not two stuffy men going blah, blah, blah. But i think they enjoy being in each others space. I think so too. And i think thats why we say because we want to see them be in that space together. I think so too. Right. You all have teased it up above. Now i have to say it, that, you know, our audience that are listen folks that are listening out there have said that these are two of my favorite fords theater actors and i dont think theyre talking about myself and richard. So they are looking forwards to hearing and seeing you guys again and i think, you know, one of the things that weve been talking about is a virtual reading of necessary sacrifices. Its very interesting that the three people on this screen today have each individually and separately over the last two months written to me and said, you know, all these people are doing virtual readings. Isnt it time wouldnt it make sense to do a virtual reading of necessary sacrifi sacrifice. I dont think we have the schedule set yet, but weve all agreed to do a reading of necessary sacrifices. There will be more details coming up as we get these two amazing actors to at least voice these phenomenal characters again even if e with cant get back to our theater here. Were getting close to our sort of final 15 minutes here and i know weve got folks out there who are hoping well ask questions. But let me ask richard a question here. Just going back to sort of the concept of, you know what a great premise. You have two of the greatest figures in history and we know they had two meetings at the white house, very historical setting, and we dont know what they said. Richard, in looking at that, clearly you did a lot of youre not going to have any of these two either of these two guys go into this meeting and Say Something they wouldnt have said somewhere else. But yet, you know, tell us a little about that process and how many scenes of the two meetings did you write, toss out, write toss out, go one direction and then change course. I dont know the answer to that. I know that i think by the time we opened it was maybe on draft nine, i want to say. I do know i keep everything i keep everything in my file. I have the original idea, then i have the abysmal draft, the appalling draft, the incompetent draft, the really awful draft, and then i have the bad draft which is we do a reading of. And then i have a worst draft and eventually we get to rehearsal. So i dont actually know. But for the writers out there, i dont think plays are written. I think theyre grown. I think you grow them. However it takes to grow it is what your process is. In this case, i had to start with the Historical Research, certainly, i had to start with reading about lincoln and douglass, but also reading them, reading lincolns alerletters a speeches and douglasss speeches and editorials. He was a voluminous writer. Partly to get the history but partly to get their thought, partly to get what they might say, as you said, if they were in the room together, what they would pull out of their rhetorical pocket. Partly to get the cadences, to get how they would sound. Lincoln was harder because most people talked about lincoln, you know. What you got from him was his speeches and letters. Douglass, i had everything. I had so much to pair down. But i think it was a process of accretion, of beginning with something and growing it out and shaping it as it happened and i would be really remiss if i didnt mention Jennifer Nelson in this who directed the piece. I think jennifer was really on me about keeping it balanced. Its the great thing about a director. Actors are in the moment. Actors are the greatest resource they have because theyre in it and they will tell you when its working and theyll tell you when its not and sometimes they will say, what if i do this and you they say yes in that moment and they steal it. But the director has that overall vision. And the number of times that jennifer kept me focused and balanced in this piece as craig said, it had that quality of the two guys face to face was crucial. So when i say it was a year, it sounds like a long time to people, but a year is very little time in the theaters to go from zero to opening night. Its a lot of work. Its a lot of fun work. I get to be in the room by myself with lincoln and douglass for a while. You brought something up there and i think everyone on the screens here know that the great thing about the theater is its a collaborative process. Maybe have input into it. Maybe some playwrights are more collaborative than others. A famous playwright once said to me, if you dont want to collaborate, write a novel. So this is a collaborative process. But im curious if you either david or craig in recognizing, craig, you swooped in at the 11th hour. David, craig or jennifer weighed in and said this doesnt sound right or did david say, i dont know if lincoln would say that . Did you get any of that during the process, richard, or, david, you might want to check him and make sure his facts are right on this. Yeah, i got that. And certainly because to go back to an earlier point, this is one of the things that i lost by having craig come in late is i never got that process with him. So when he says i did richards Frederick Douglass, im thinking, i kind of would have liked to have figure out how to do craigs Frederick Douglass in the script. I didnt have that. David, on the other hand, because hes played lincoln and knows lincoln down to his bones would be flexible with lines, movements and certain things and because hes doing it and its organic it almost always felt right. There are times you say, no, i think well stick with my line on that. But i think if youre smart, you listen to your actors. They will tell you when things are working, even if they dont tell you directly, you can hear it, when theyre struggling. And you listen to them and you follow them and try to find you try to help them do what they have to do. At the end of the day opening night, im gone. Theres nobody more useless than a playwright after tech, actually, were useful. The actors are up there every night, doing it and they need to be able to do it on their terms. Thats what you have to give them, i think. David, anything to add to that . Are you you never got a writing credit on this. So i guess youre additions werent extensicessive. I did not deserve any kind of writing credit. Maybe i needed editing, a little. Edited a little. I just went when craig came in to and it was such a whirlwind that when he came in and we had to just we had to do it. We had to he already had to follow the outline that had been laid out on the stage as far as the blocking was concerned or whatever. He was just i cant i cant imagine. He was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And its been a pleasure all these years when we get to see each other. But it all came out of richards play and i think in the title necessary sacrifices, sometimes we all have to make necessary sacrifices for the good of the whole. And thats this play, speaks to that. Thank you, david. Craig, i want to ask you something because, you know, were talking about sort of the input of the actor and the rehearsal process, obviously, you didnt have that with this. But i wonder if a twopart question, craig. One is, at what point obviously you were thrown into this and, you know, the whirlwind i remember i have a vivid memory of backstage before one of the first preview performances and you and i were chatting and i was just thanking you profusely for saving the production and coming in and you were looking at me, you were probably looking way through me and thinking, i got to think about my blocking and i got to think about my movement, the script and thank you so much and sort of went on. But at what point in the process did you sort of it might have been a week in that you started to sort of, like, seep into the character and really feel douglass . And then second part of that is, you know, since you missed the beginning rehearsal process, at some point either during the run or after the run, did you do more reading, research or anything on douglass just on a pure fascination with this amazing man . To answer the second question first, yes, i did. I actually like i said in the beginning, i learned about him subsequently, during the run. I would learn about him. Besides the stuff that i already knew, you know. But its interesting. It was a the whole process was a rehearsal for me. So the first was that preview where i was on book. And then jennifer says to me one day after four days or something, do you want to put the book down . And i thought no. Its working. Everybody loves it. But once i put the book down then i started to breathe into it and with every performance, it got more comfortable and i could play and, you know, david and i could play and if things went awry, because it was just the two of us, we knew i dont think we ever i dont think there was ever a train wreck. There might have been times where we had to massage richards script a little bit to get back on track. So in essence, yes, i think that by the end of the run, i was ready to open. Exactly. It was the end of the run and now youre like, okay, lets do three more weeks. Right. Right, right. Richard, i know you are going to give us a short reading from the end of the play. And i thought this was a good time before we run out of time, i would love to hear you do that and well come back after you do this reading and maybe follow up with a few short questions before we wrap up our session. Why dont you give us a reading of the end of the play. I know you have it here. Well, i supposed this is valordictory. Basically we know lincoln dies and things happen and before that happens, the very last meeting, douglass asks lincoln what are you doing to do when this over with and lincoln mentions all the things he wants to do. And lincoln asks douglass what he wants to do. And he says that all depends. And lincoln says what . And douglass says upon you. At the very end of the play, douglass is left alone on stage, as for my friend lincoln, i had great cause to despise him, i found most reason to believe in him because he was a good man taken for all in all who learned wisdom from a war and would have learned it from peace and were he living would go with those who go farthest in the cause of equally. But this is not an ending. The songs of my bondage follow me still. Too many chords remained untouched or out of tune. We begun to ask those who fought for slavery and those who fought for liberty or justice. Thus i say, as i believe he would say, judge no one by their complexion, but by their loyalty. Wherever there is is a patriot, north or south, white or black, man or woman, fighting for all, hail them as a citizen, as kin, as a brother or sister beloved. The unfinished work remains. The sacrifices must be ours upon us. And thats it. That says it all right there. That last line. Well, i think thats you know, what a brilliant ending and i sort of remember the play so beautifully with douglass standing there at the end because of course douglass lived, what, another 40 years after 40 years, yeah. 40 years after lincoln died and always i think reflected back on him. The theres a question that someone wrote which im going to throw out to the group here and its an odd question. Maybe its a more ponderous one for us to let go into the air beyond this telecast is, is there would there be an interest in a play, would it be interesting to have a play with the sort of characters of lincoln and douglass. And maybe its the ghost of lincoln and douglass looking back at america and whats happened in the last 150 years. I mean, i god only knows what lincoln and douglass would say looking at whats going on today. But i just it would be interesting i wonder if thats i throw that out there for the group. Is that too strange . How many characters and how long . Spoken like a good playwright. David . Craig . Im not sure. Im not sure there was an Old Commercial from the 70s where a native american is on a highway and somebody drives by and throws litter at his feet and its just a sign of him and a tear drop. And i think thats that play. You know, i think i think they would look back on where we are now and would be angry and saddened at opportunities lost and the things that were slaves too even though we have the capability to achieve many great things, our own folly and our own whatever is keeping us from doing that and i think they would be very saddened and angered by that. I dont know that thats i dont know what the play is after that. You know, maybe they maybe they have a drink