You just recently had a birthday too huh . Harlan yup. Did you grow up in gilbertville . Harlan the first 18 years, i was in gilbertville, and i have not spent any time since then. Is gilbertville where you would consider to be your hometown . Harlan it would be considered my hometown. And how many brothers and sisters did you have growing up . What was your family size and makeup . Harlan two brothers and one sister. Where did you fit in . Harlan i was number three. Now tell me, before we started recording, we were talking a bit about your family and growing up during the depression years. Could you tell me a little bit about that about what life was , like for you coming up during that time . Harlan my father was an irishamerican. He emigrated from ireland to the United States to find a better place to live. And he and his family came over here, and i looked at their papers, and found out they had 600 to the whole family when they emigrated to the United States. My father spent most of his life in the clothing cloth industry. He was either a loom fixer or a weaver or whatever in these mills. You say your father was very educationminded when it came to the children . Harlan yes. I can recall at a very early age, when my father was going to talk about what was going to happen in the future. He says, now when you get done with college the following will , happen. His ambition was that every one of his children would get the education that he did not get. And all of you did go on to get it. Harlan two doctorates and two masters. You would have been 19 years old, almost 20 when the japanese attacked pearl harbor. And do you recall where you are you were what you were doing , when you heard the attack . Harlan yes. I was walking through the united aircraft factory and hartford, connecticut at 12 30 in the afternoon. Where you working for united . Harlan no, this was a sightseeing tour that they had arranged, and which i wanted to go to on. What was your reaction to hearing that news . What was your reaction to hearing about the attack . Harlan the world war i had already been fought. We knew some of the survivors, and there were very few stories around about war. So when we heard that the japanese had struck us, we were astounded. Had interviewer had you been following what was going on in europe . Harlan yes, we were very much interested. We did a lot of it, following in the schools. Hitler was a real horror to all of us. Interviewer after high school, you started college on your own, correct . Harlan right. After graduating from high school, i got a job. I earned a great sum of 100, and i had 75 left to go to college, and i told my dad and mom i was going to go to college, and they did not resist and said, ok. But i did not have the funds, and i went to college on 75. I survived. I paid the tuition. I paid my living expenses. And the spring of my first year in college, i remember reading in the paper you could take an exam to the Naval Academy and if you want you got an appointment to the academy. This sounded like heaven to me. This meant Free Clothing and a job after i get done. I came in second the first time i took the exam. The next time i took the exam, i came in number one. Interviewer when was it that you took the exam . Harlan in the spring. Interviewer what year . Do you recall . Harlan the first one would have been i really cannot tell. March or april, somewhere around there. It was the same time next year. Interviewer how old were you at the time . Harlan i was 19 for the first exam, and i have to do a little bit of arithmetic. Interviewer you took the first exam before the u. S. Got into the war, 1941, and then 1942. Harlan i took the second exam, and i won. This is a great thing in my lifetime, really, because it showed me you could do anything if you work hard enough at it. Interviewer tell me about life in the Naval Academy. Harlan the life at the Naval Academy was kind of severe those days. The plague years of the academy were awfully rough. Very strict. Very demanding. And, of course, i will never forget the and chairwoman were saying shake hands to the man to the right of you into the man to the left of you. One of you will not be here next fall. He was telling us it was going to be tough. Get ready for it. Interviewer did it end up being as tough as you were expecting it to be . Harlan academically, i think it was as tough as i thought it was going to be. As far as discipline was concerned, i did not realize discipline could be that severe. Interviewer what did you specialize in at the academy . Harlan engineering, mechanical engineering. Interviewer did you make any lifelong friends while you were at the academy . Harlan oh yeah, a lot of them. I cannot recall all of them. My roommate, he passed away about 20 years ago, maybe 15 years ago. Porky cantwell, he went on to become a captain in the navy. He died several years ago. I could name a lot of them if i sat down and thought about it. Interviewer when you took the exam to get into the academy, were you doing so with the intention of making the navy your career . Harlan i thought it was the greatest opportunity in the world. A fulltime job after you graduated and a job until you wanted to get out. Interviewer when did you graduate from the academy . Harlan 1945. Interviewer did you do was it didnt you have to do a tour aboard a ship . Harlan we had cruises every year, and that was to train us in the physical aspects of commanding a ship, so it was very good training. Interviewer and when you once you graduate, you are commissioned an ensign, correct . Where were you assigned . Where were you sent after graduation . Harlan the uss indianapolis. Only 12 of us were assigned to capital ships at that time. Both of us were assigned to the indianapolis. My compatriot [indiscernible] i was the only one that went into active duty as far as i know on the indianapolis. Interviewer were you able to go home on leave after graduation . Harlan 30 days. Interviewer your parents must have been proud to see their son. Harlan they were, and of course, i was thrilled to death. My girlfriend all this time agreed we were going to get married and we got married on june 14. Interviewer while you were home on leave . Harlan yes, she was 21 and i was 23. And it was a marriage that lasted 72 years. Interviewer what was her name . Harlan alice. Interviewer on june 14, you said. Harlan yes, flag day. Interviewer that is what, only five weeks later that the ship was sunk. Harlan right, on the 29th of july. Interviewer when and where did you report aboard the indianapolis . Harlan i cannot name the seaport on the pacific coast. Interviewer in San Francisco . Harlan no, what is the other one. Interviewer san diego . Harlan it was near san diego. I cannot remember the name of it. Interviewer coronado . Harlan no, one more. In any case, it was there that i reported aboard ship, and unbeknownst to me, our ship had been chosen to carry the first atomic bomb to the pacific. Interviewer so you knew absolutely nothing . Harlan we saw these two sailors coming up the dock, and slung between them on a pole was this thing. I said to the chief, they must have a lot of damage in the pacific. That looks like a radium flask to me. And, when it came time for the court to inquire as to who knew when. He knew what it was. He said it was a radium flask. Interviewer what was your First Impression of the indianapolis when you first reported . Harlan beautiful ship. I have been on several ships before that, but that was a beautiful ships. Interviewer can you describe her a little bit for me . Harlan you had your command division and then you had the secondary division, and i was in secondary with the ship, the bomb blew up. It blew up the bow of the ship, and the ship began to sink. Officer whitney said he was going to go down and see what the orders would be from the chief executive officer, from the executive officer who was red flynn, and he went down, and never came back. I went down the ladder, and i reported to red flynn, and he said bring them in together and make them stay together. I did that. And, finally, i knew this was an impossibility and i gave the order to abandon ship. 325 men came along. Out of the 325, 151 survived. Interviewer what were you doing when the torpedoes hit . Harlan when you are on watch, you are always observing. You are observing the sea to see if there is an enemy approaching, if there was any real reason for caution. We did not see the enemy. It was cloudy. Visibility was almost nil. Interviewer just prior to the ship being sunk, when you stopped at tinian to deliver the parts. Harlan when we stopped where . Interviewer at tinian. Harlan oh, ok. Interviewer did you see the parts being removed . Harlan yeah i was on deck when they were unloading it. No big action on board the ship, but on the dock, there were admirals. Everything of importance on tinian wasnt there. Was there. We later found out it was the bomb. Interviewer were you able to go ashore while you were on tinian or no . Harlan no. As i recall, we took off to join the fleet. Interviewer so you were on watch the night of the 29th . Harlan a quarter to 12 00, the torpedo as i recall, it was a quarter to 12 00 when the torpedo hit. Torpedoes, not one. One took out the bow and started the immediate sinking of the ship. Interviewer were you aware the ship had stopped zigzagging . Harlan was i aware of what . Interviewer were you aware the ship had stopped zigzagging . Harlan yes, of course i was aware. Everybody on the ship knew what the ship was doing. We had stopped zigzagging, and we had slowed the ship down. Interviewer did that concern you at all . Harlan no, it did not. I am not absolutely positive we stopped all of the zigzagging. I know we slowed down to 22 knots. Probably stopped zigzagging pretty much. We did not zigzag as i recall. Going out. I cannot recall now. It has been a long time, 70 years. Interviewer so when the torpedo hits, there is a big flash. Harlan oh yeah, you knew we had been hit. Interviewer did you know it was a torpedo . Or did you suspect you had hit a mine . Harlan i had no reasons for knowing it was a torpedo. I was on the ladder coming down from skyaft, and then the second one hit. We knew we were in trouble. Interviewer so you gathered 325 men at the aft end of the ship, you said . Harlan i did not gather them. I told them to hang onto anything they could hang onto, including the lifelines. When the tilt became too great to hold on, i gave the order to abandon ship. Nobody abandoned. Then i yelled, follow me. At bodies came in so fast it was unbelievable. And we swam away from the ship. And then, we looked back and the ship went down. Interviewer you saw the ship go down . Harlan yes, we saw it go down. It was only about 50, 60 yards from us. I do not know how many yards. It is hard for me to remember at this point, this date, but we could see the image of the ship going under. Interviewer what is going through your mind when you look back and see your home, even though you had only been aboard the ship for a few weeks . Harlan i had been at the Naval Academy and trained. They trained their officers well, and my first thought was, were there any Senior Officers around . And there were no Senior Officers. So i took command. To be honest, the sailors did not really want anybody to tell them what to do. Gunner, the real hero of my group said, you heard what the officer said. Do what he wants you to do. So they all did. I started at that point to have to the life nets in the water. My group of 325 were pretty well tied up. Interviewer how did you determine there were 325 men in your group . Harlan counted, count off. In the navy, everything is count off. The 151 i get from the people on board. The 325 was counting off. We counted off 325. Interviewer you had the guys tied . Harlan we had the guys tied to the rope. We had four of them in the water. We tied the rope together and the men tied themselves to the rope and get inside the rope. Whatever they wanted to do, i wanted them to be attached. Interviewer did you all have life rafts or lifeboats . Harlan we had three rafts. There were so many cruelly injured people. We put them in the life rafts. And, as i recall, i do not think there were any people in the life rafts that were hurt real bad. Interviewer you yourself had been wounded. Harlan pardon me . You had bid wounded, correct been wounded, correct . Harlan oh yeah, but by the grace of god, i had a big wound in my side from shrapnel. I bled a lot, but it did not take on , so it healed itself but aut i dont know, length of time. Interviewer when you all got into the water that first night, what were some of the problems you all faced . Harlan disorder, fright, wounds. I would say that was all we had. There was not any fighting. There was not any turmoil of that type. But everybody was scared to death. These are all 18, 19yearold kids. Interviewer you are leading or in command of a group of 325 guys and you are, what, 23 . Harlan 23, but i was well trained. I must say that the Naval Academy is fabulous. Interviewer were you all confident that you would be picked up fairly quickly . Harlan no, no, that was a big problem that we had was to try to keep the men thinking that they would be saved, but there was no way on gods green earth that i knew we were going to be saved. In fact, when we were saved, the water had my lifejacket had become so sodden with water that it was almost up to my lip when i was in the sea, so i was maybe 10 or 15 hours from being i would have gone under. I would have presumed that all but a few would have gone under. Interviewer you were wearing one of the k pockets . Harlan yeah, the k pocket. It is supposed to last 90 hours. Ours lasted four days and five nights. Interviewer the following morning, the morning of the first day is when the sharks showed up, correct . Harlan right. Interviewer what was your first indication that this was going to be a problem . Harlan they grabbed some of our people who had broken free from the net. Everybody tied to the net the sharks did not attack. Every time the sharks were coming in, we would kick and scream and do things we thought would drive the sharks away, and they did drive them away. The sharks only picked off as far as i could see the sharks only picked off to eat or to kill people who were by themselves. In other words, no protection around them. Interviewer could you see or hear any of the other groups of guys . Harlan none. Interviewer as far as you knew harlan i did not know there was any other group. Interviewer as far as you knew, youre the only other survivors. At some point you had set up a shark watch. Harlan right. Interviewer what did you have the men doing . Harlan whenever they saw as yell sharkould and start screaming. I do not know whether the hell that was effective or not. At the sharks did not like us, so they would leave us, but the sharks, they attacked in groups. Interviewer human beings are not designed to outmaneuver sharks in the water. Harlan no, there is no way you could. Interviewer you also had a deal with wounded men dying. How did you deal with that . Harlan pardon me. Interviewer you also had a deal with wounded men dying. How did you deal with that . Harlan they had been in rafts. We had been taking care of them, and when they died i just cut them loose from the group and let them float out to sea. I did not want the bodies around. Interviewer do you think that would have more of an effect on the survivors in the group . Harlan right, i am sure they were glad to see the bodies go. Interviewer did you all have any kind of supplies at all as far as medical goes or food . Harlan i cannot recall. There was no food. I cannot recall if there was any water flasks. There were a couple, but i do not think they were in our group. They were in another group. Interviewer you all were floating in a big oil slick, correct . Harlan pardon me . Interviewer you all were floating in a big oil slick, right . Harlan yeah, that was a blessing because it helped us from getting sunburned. I had everybody smear themselves with oil. And they did, and it stopped them from dying of sunburn. Interviewer i actually read that the oil, the fuel oil also may have contributed to keeping the sharks away. Harlan i would suspect. I am not a shark expert, but they did not they never attacked the group. They only attacked single people. The single people do not have the oil slick with them. Interviewer how did you keep the guys from, because you guys did not have freshwater. How did you keep the guys from drinking saltwater . Harlan well, i just told them what would happen. I have no recollection of anybody resisting the fact that i told them do not drink the saltwater. Interviewer after the first day, once you start getting into days two and three, and how are you keeping your group under control . Harlan they were all so scared at that point. And feeble. Anybody who could command would have been able to commend them. Strangely enough, i had several officers in this group of people that stayed with me, and i never knew it until after we got out of the sea. Interviewer these were guys who were higher in rank than you . Harlan pardon me . Interviewer these were officers higher in rank than you . Harlan i would say they were higher in rank to me. Me and iem came up to said, you take over. He was so burned, and i said, tie yourself to me, and i will dickcare of you, and remained. Ofk went in and out rationality throughout the time. He remembered that i had told him what to do, and he told his i get, and to this day, ters from his family for dick has died. I get letters from his family for saving dicks life. I did not save them. He just did what i told him. Interviewer i guess, especially by the third day, after having been out in the heat or the sunlight that long with no food, no water you probably had quite a few guys who were going in and out of harlan sanity . Interviewer yeah. Harlan yes, we saved all we could. If we spotted somebody that was starting to go under or lose his senses, we would try to take care of him. And if they fought, there was nothing we could do to stop the fighting. And when i say fighting, they did not like the idea of someone telling them what to do. You know, they are out of their heads. Interviewer what was your biggest fear during those few days you were in the water, those four days you were in your water . Harlan pardon me. Interviewer what was your biggest fear in the water . Harlan my fear was for the men, not for myself. I never feared for my. I was too busy. I did not go to sleep in the five days, five nights rather. My biggest concern always was the people that we could save that we save them. There were some we could not save. They were just blown apart. We sort of nursed them as best we could, but we could not really do anything better than make them feel good. Interviewer and you stayed awake pretty much the entire time, correct . Harlan yes, i really believe ive looked back so many times. I really think i stayed awake all the five days. Interviewer you say by the time you were rescued, there was only 151 guys left . Harlan yeah. Interviewer were just the other badlyundred odd guys so wounded that they passed . Harlan i think that the we all lost about 25, 30, 40 pounds. I went down from 151 to 129. That is my actual weight by weighing, by the way. Interviewer that is a lot of weight to lose in just a couple of days. Harlan yeah, well, you were not bringing any liquid in, and liquid is going out. Interviewer the issue you all faced was hypothermia. Harlan right. Interviewer a lot of people do not realize. You think the balmy, South Pacific water is 85 degrees, but your natural body temperature is , you know, 98. 6. Harlan i think a lot of the people there was no way we could tell, that i could tell what caused their death. That was not my objective. My objective was to keep them alive. Interviewer how were you all located . How were you all found . Harlan us. I think i was in my office. An airplane flew over us and thought we were an enemy and came in a second time to bomb us. And, i think it was gunnar hall. Horner. I am not sure who it was yelled , that is men in the water. Not gunner horner. I do not know who the hell it was. One of the crew yelled, those are our men those are men in the water. They took another pass and notified the navy, and the navy came out of the ships 18 hours later. Interviewer that was gwens plane . Harlan gwen was the captain of the plane that spotted us. Interviewer they flew over your group . Harlan yeah. Checkwin, he is the hero of the crowd. Interviewer it took 18 hours for your crew was located . Harlan yeah. Interviewer what were those 18 hours like, knowing that you had been sighted . Harlan there was a lot of joy. Maybe, and i do not know about this, because i can only speak for myself, personally, but whatever i had to do, i had to keep alive, because somebody is coming to pick me up. Interviewer at what point did you realize, all right, i am going to make it through this . Harlan never thought of it. I only had i was imbued with this great responsibility they put into you in the Naval Academy, and my thoughts all of the time were my crew. And how do i keep them together, and how do i protect them . Interviewer when did you find out that there were other survivors, as well . Harlan when we got on, i think it was i do not know where it was, but it was after we got on land. Interviewer and tell me about your rescue. How what ship pick you up . How did you get out of the water . Harlan pardon me. Interviewer tell me about your personal rescue. What ship pick you up . Harlan well, in typical navy tradition. Everybody is trained. I made sure everybody was everybody in my group was on board ship before i got on. And they carried me out of the water. I dont i really do not know, to be honest with you, who did the counting of the 151 men were who were left. But we were on ship. Interviewer which ship pick you up . Harlan oh, geez. I i wish iwish knew. This is what old age has done to me. My memory on these items is scarce. Interviewer is it the ringgold or the bassett . Harlan the bassett. Interviewer what happened to you after they picked you up . Harlan they started to feed me water, teaspoon by teaspoon, and i can recall lying in a bunk and taking my Naval Academy ring off and putting it beside me, and they took me away to clean me up a little bit. Not to really make me clean but to scrape some of the crud off. And i came back, and my ring was still there. And i was thrilled. My fingers had swollen up so bad that i could not stand the pressure of the ring on them. Interviewer how were you all treated by the sailors aboard the bassett who had picked you up . Harlan they thought we were prize jewels, i guess you would say. They treated us so well, it was unbelievable. Interviewer i guess you probably i am assuming you passed out after you got aboard ship if you had been awake for harlan oh, yeah. We did. As soon as they laid me down on a bunk, i was gone. I can recall that. But i stayed awake all that time. I do not know how long i slept. It mustve been a long time. I was not not interested in food or water. I just was interested in sleep. Interviewer what did you do or what happened to you in the days following your rescue . Harlan well, we we are i could recall we were isolated from the rest of the people in the camp that we were brought to. And i do not know where that was, but we were isolated for a long time. I forget and i, and who the other guy was, we were now beyond the scope of power, and we went up and signed out a jeep. I will never forget that. We signed out a jeep, and we were not supposed to sign out a jeep. We signed out a jeep and took off and explored the island. We had a hell of a time. Interviewer this was on pellalu . Harlan yeah. We had a real good time. Of course, dick was happy. He was cleaned up. His wounds were cleaned up and stuff. Interviewer were you all ever debriefed at any point . Harlan were we debriefed . Oh, yeah, we there was a lot of debriefing. And i do not know why i was chosen to get a medal. I do not know about it. Nobody talked to me about it. A year and a half later, i was called on board the deck of the ship i was on and awarded the medal. Am i destroying this . Interviewer no, no, no, you are fine. You got a purple heart for your wounds. Harlan and then i got a medal for bravery. I guess i think i was the first member of my class to get a major medal. And admiral sprillens gave me my purple heart. Interviewer were you all told not to talk about the loss of the ship . Harlan i do not recall now, to be honest with you, whether we were or not. I did not want to talk about it. I did not want to talk about it to anybody, including my wife. I did not want anybody to know what the heck we had been through. It was a horrible experience. I did not want to share the rotten experience with them. Interviewer where were you when the war ended . Harlan well, lets see. Where the heck was i . Jesus. Interviewer were you still on pellalu . Harlan pardon me . Interviewer were you still on pellalu . Harlan yep, i think we were. We were still on pellalu when the war ended. It ended after the second bomb, which was 14 days later. So i would say, yes, we were all still in pellalu. Interviewer when did you return to the United States . Harlan gee. I do not know. I do not know how long we spent in the hospital, but we spent a long time in the hospital. I would say we probably returned to the states in november. I am guessing on all of these dates, you know . Interviewer and you when you came back, did you remain in the service for any length of time . Harlan oh, yeah, for sure, i did. I think i got out in 1989. I was put on inactive i was put on limited duty, which is really through your career. They put me on limited duty. Then, i asked to be put in reserve. I did not want to be on i wanted either to be admiral or nothing, and limited duty would not give me that opportunity, so i was on limited duty for about a year and a half to two years before i decided, this is not for me. Interviewer now, were you questioned, or did you take part in captain mcveighs courtmartial . Harlan oh, yeah. I was a big you see, when the bridge was blown out, the secondary con, and i was in secondary con, it takes control of the ship. So i blew the hat off the i said, you are trying the wrong men. I was in charge of the ship. I was the only person left in secondary con. In the navy, you go down. And of course, they i do not know what you call it. They took a brief break in the courtmartial, and they came back, and the captain was in command. How the hell can the commanding be in the water . So i maintained that all of the way through. Until senator smith heard my story. I went to him, finally. I think it was in 2000, 2001, and he had a hearing, and i will never forget senator warner. After we had the hearing, he came down and put his arm around my shoulder and said, when i came into this room, i felt one way. Ming out, i feel another i knew that i had won. The captain had been exonerated. Interviewer so that is when Congress Passed the resolution . Harlan yeah, i think it was 2001. I am not sure. Interviewer most of the survivors thought that mcveigh had been railroaded . Harlan yeah, i think everybody did. Interviewer i mean, he was the only ship captain in the ward to be courtmartialed for losing his ship . Harlan yeah. Well, there is all kinds of stories as to why he was courtmartialed. [indiscernible] interviewer did you have any trouble after the war with nightmares or what we now know is posttraumatic stress . Harlan well, i dont know. I cannot tell you. So many years ago, i presume i did, but that was not anything i could not handle, and i was with my wife. She was a fabulous woman. Interviewer when did you get off active duty . Harlan when did i get off active duty . The second time . Interviewer the first time. Harlan i think it was jesus, i cannot remember the dates. It could have been 1948 or 1949, the first time, and the second time was i do not know when the second time was. Harlan 1953 was the second time. I was a full lieutenant. Interviewer after you left the service and left active duty, did you have any trouble transitioning back to civilian life . Harlan no. Interviewer were you able to use your g. I. Bill benefits and go to school or buy a house . Or . Harlan yeah, i think i i think i used g. I. Benefits to get my masters degree at chicago. Interviewer and you served during the korean war in intelligence, you said, in london . Harlan yeah. Interviewer what were some of your duties . Harlan i was a in the korean war. I cannot tell you what my duties were. I had to sign a thing. For 27 years, i would not say something. Interviewer you would not reveal what you were doing . Harlan i would not reveal what i was doing. So if it was that important, it was that important. Let me tell you. Let me tell you, this was a very interesting time. Fabulous. I could have written books about it. Interviewer well, it has been you than 27 years, so maybe want to write a book about it. Harlan then i have lost the facts. Interviewer how did how did your experiences of the war and your surviving the sinking of the indianapolis affect your life afterwards . Harlan well, first of all, let me talk about my marriage life. I had the most fabulous marriage a man has ever had could have ever want to have. I had 73 years of absolute bliss with my wife, and, maybe, this was all caused by the fact that we realizedng there were more important things in life than just living. I do not know. I do not know what it was, but we had a fabulous living life. Businesswise, what decision could i ever make that was anywhere as a important as the decision to tell those men to throw their lives into the water . That was the biggest probably if i went back in life, maybe that was one of the biggest decisions i ever made. Because i was gambling everybodys life that we were going to win. Interviewer you mean giving the order to abandon ship . Harlan yeah. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] American History tv. Exploring the american story, we have been across the nation. Like many americans, our staff is staying close to home due to the coronavirus. Next, a look at one of our cities tour visits. The pearl kind of mirrors what san antonio is. On one side, it is history and culture and a nod to the past, and on the others, it is a look forward to what san antonio has become, just the diversity and inclusivity and all the different kind of things that are happening. The city was created more than 300 years ago. It became a melting pot. And the germans came in in the mid1880s and built small