Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Manhattan Project 20240712

Companies as a Public Service and brought you today, your television provider. Up next, the Manhattan Project is a subject of a lecture by George Mason University history professor Martin Sherman is the author of a world destroyed, harris she met and its like a cease and a coauthor of a pulitzer winner, mr. Sherman details the development of the atomic bomb, beginning with the discovery efficient in 1938 through the use of atomic bombs in cities like kawasaki and hershey. The event was hosted in washington d. C. It is just under two hours. Our speaker tonight is martin sure. When hes the professor at the history at martin mason. Hes also the author of a world destroyed, the atomic bomb and the world, alliance which won the historic foreign relations, as well as the american book prize. It was a 1975 finalist for it is subtitled hiroshima and its legacies. Hes held appointments at the cardoza fund, visiting as this thing professor at American History at Yale University and as the burnett mailer visiting professor at wellesley college. He started dartmouth, uc berkeley, the university of pennsylvania, hes received the national endowment, in 2007 he was inducted into the American Academy of arts and sciences. So please join me now in a warm welcome for professor martin. Is it working . Good. Thank you ruth. My mother wrote that introduction i hope you liked it. It was more fulsome because my father can get a chance to added it. Im really glad to be here to talk about this topic. I think it is the kind of subject that needs to be reviewed again and again and again because unfortunately the Nuclear Issue is still with us, and it looks like its going to be with us for a very long time. So i had a chance to just talk with it to a few of you, and i know that at least this i chatted with have a particular interest in all broad aspects of the Manhattan Project. And this top im going to give, however focuses on as the subtitle says visions of the nuclear future. But is it focuses on the people who were thinking about what Nuclear Weapons would do, not only for the war but the post war period. That is one of the themes of the stock tonight. That Nuclear Weapons were from the very beginning not just a weapon that was thought about with respect to the war, but the implications of such a powerful transformative weapon was automatically folded into ideas of what effect it would have on the post war period. Now many of you no doubt are interested in the views of those like oppenheim, or general groves, haunts beta, and many many other participants in the project. And id like to suggest to you that if you want to follow up voices, visions of the nuclear future, and the voices that are the subject of tonights discussion, that you go to Manhattan Project voices. One word. Manhattan project voices. The Heritage Foundation has a website with lots of interviews. Some of which i did. But lots of different interviews that were done by other people with the major figures in the Manhattan Project. So i think its not too much to say that the atomic bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki structured the future of not only the atomic age and how the atomic bomb was seen and valued, but also the future of civilization. So were talking about a very big subject here. And one that in a fact has changed over time in terms of our views of the major issues. 70 years ago there was a certain consensus on eve you, 50 years ago there was more diversity of views about the issues. And today there are many many, many many views. But one of the interesting things is that the atomic bomb, although it was not predicted 100 years before it was developed, the idea that science would transform the human condition was something that people thought about even in the 19th century. And one of my favorite quotes with respect to that issue was by henry brooks adams in a book he wrote an 1862 where he says the following. Man has mounted science, and has now run away with. I firmly believe that for many centuries more signs will be the master of man. The engines he will have invented will be beyond his strength to control. Someday science may have the, someday science may have the existence of mankind in its power. And the human race commits suicide by blowing up the world. Now thats 1862. And the beginning of the nuclear age is a moment when that possibility emerged. No matter how devastating, no matter how terrible previous weapons were, there is absolutely nothing that compares to that transformative effect of Nuclear Weapons. Now im going to talk about the period of the discovery of the Nuclear Vision to the post were period. I hope the discussion will expand to beyond present day. But to organize the top ive divided into four pieces. I divided the pie in quarters. And the first section of the top is about possibilities when Nuclear Weapons were, not Nuclear Weapons, when vision was first discovered in its implications were forced thought about, what were the possibilities . That runs from about 1939 till about 1941, until the time in which the United States entered the war after pearl harbor. The Second Period is from lets see pearl harbor until about the time president roosevelt died in april, 1945, and president truman took president ial office. And that was a time of panic. Especially at the beginning of that period. And then, about the time that truman comes in we start to talk about promotion, that is how is the bomb going to be promoted to the world. How is it going to be revealed. Are we going to just have a test . Are we going to use it on the japanese . Are we not want to use it at all . Whatever. These issues with issues that were discussed in visions of the nuclear future. Finally in the post war period were talking about the eminence. The United States, the sole possessor of this incredible force. So lets begin at the beginning. With the discovery of Nuclear Fission. I may be reviewing some think that most of you know. But Nuclear Weapons, i keep saying that, Nuclear Vision was discovered in germany. At it was discovered by two chemists, not physicists, chemists. They were doing a series of experiments where they were bombarding the element, adams of elements in the periodic table with neutrons to see what would happen. They got to the 92nd element, uranium, and the bombarded it with a neutron. And the most amazing thing happened. They ended up not with uranium, but with burial. A tomahawk number 56, as opposed to 90. And some leftover elements of uranium. So they did it again. Same thing happened. They couldnt figure out what in the world had occurred. They sent their experiment to former colleague, lisa, who was jewish and had to leave germany. Lisa we might know, whos a physicist, and her nephew, another physicist, figured out what had happened. A uranium adam had split into, and when the weed the two elements, the berry am and what was left of the uranium, it weighed less than the uranium atom. How many of you are watching the einstein series on television . So basically e mc squared that means that when air energy is converted, energy is converted back and forth, what had happened is that some energy had been released in this bombardment. And if it zillion of these adams could be split at the same time, up the sleeve, and unprecedented amount of energy would be released. And that was scary, and it was fantastic, in it in a sense it transformed the whole understanding of what could happen in the universe. And this was in line with a lot of other transformations that had occurred in the 20th century. We mentioned and stunts theory of relativity, then his special theory of relativity. Then the new conception of relativity, then has embers uncertainty principle. Classical physics had been completely transformed by these new insights, and now this. So it was an amazing event. And it was an amazing event with all kinds of not clearly understood possibilities. One being perhaps we could end up with a weapon. Now you all know about einsteins leather to roosevelt. Einstein said to his friend lynn is polling i made one great mistake in my life when i signed a letter to president roosevelt recommending that the atomic bomb be made. But there was some justification. The danger that the germans might get them. That of course was the possibility that led to the panic phase two. And that letter that and stein wrote to roosevelt was however not a letter that said we have to hurry up and build atomic bombs because the germans are ahead of us and we need to build atomic bombs. It was much more cautious and it was written by leo who had worked with einstein in berlin years and years before. Einstein wrote that it is conceivable that much less vision as a source of power that extremely powerful bombs of a new type might be instructed. And he pointed out that a single bump of this type carried by boat and exploded by port might very well destroy the whole port, together with the surrounding territory. Now if the letterhead ended at that it might not have had the effect that it had which was for roosevelt to say give it to an aide, his name was paul watson, and to say look into this. But the last part of the letter was critical. I understand i start had wrote that germany had actually stopped the sale of uranium from the czechoslovakia mines that germany has taken over. So you can understand that the framework for what would eventually become the Manhattan Project, even in this earliest stage when nobody knew if it was even possible if a weapon could come out of this discovery, but the framework was this is something really important that can make a difference. Roosevelt initiated activity. And the activity in the United States has basically committees of scientists and some military people studying the not only implications of the strassmann discovery, which by the way was published in Nature Magazine in 1939. I think i neglected to mention that the experiment had taken place in december of 1938. A couple of months later its published in Nature Magazine, which is the premier Science Magazine in the English Speaking world. So every physicist around the globe knew about this, and had the same thoughts that had that he put in this letter that einstein wrote to roosevelt. But the committees in the ended states between the spring of and 10 39, where the summer of 1939, which is when the letter was sent to roosevelt could not figure a way that it was possible to build a Nuclear Weapon. They looked into all sorts of possibilities, but in effect got nowhere in england however, there were two refugees from germany, a couple of jewish scientists, a fresh, lisas nephew, and rudolph. They were in britain and they were not alloweds to work on the most secret project that the british were involved with. Anybody know what that was . Radar. Okay. I have an informed audience. It was radar. And they immediately decided well, what do we know best . Nuclear fission. Lets work on that, and lets see if we can figure out if it could be possible to get the Nuclear Fission built. Working off of advice from a lot of people, just going into the problem, using their imaginations theyve figured it out. The key to the conclusion that if you could collect enough uranium to 35, which is the isotopes of natural uranium to 38, it would be very very small, less than 1 of if there was some way to extract uranium to hundred 35 which had fast neutrons, then it would be possible to build a Nuclear Weapon in two years. In two years. Now the discovery of Nuclear Weapons, i did it again, of Nuclear Fission had occurred in december, 1938, published in february of 1939. That was more than two years ago. The discovery was made in germany, and comes to the conclusion in britain two years later that a bomb could be used in two years. Oh my gosh. Or at the germans well on their way to building a atomic bomb. Possibly. At least they thought, the vision of the Manhattan Project. The germans are ahead of us. They must be ahead of us. They have a lot of good physicists who remain in germany. So the british, who have an agreement with the United States to Exchange Information with each other that might be helpful for the war effort send the report to the United States, and that report arrives sometime in the spring of 1941. Spring, 90 40, one was still before pro harbor. And it has a transformative effect and the activities in the United States. Then her bush, who is the head of the office of Scientific Research and development, which is the office that oversees all the wartime atomic bomb projects, bush gets this memo and he writes the mom all to henry simpson, the secretary of war which also goes to president roosevelt. The reason it goes to the secretary of war is that the bump project is going to be under the secretary of war pages. And he says, one thing is certain. If such explosive were made, it would be thousands of times more powerful than existing explosives, and its use might be determining. And its just might be determining. And that is the thick of the Manhattan Project. And that is the intellectual engine so to speak, or the vision that drives the project that is warp speed. Roosevelt approves the Manhattan Project on december six, 1941. Very interesting day. December six, 1941 december seven, 8 00 in the morning, pearl harbor time, pearl harbor is bombed. The Manhattan Project is underway in the war is underway virtually at the same time. And remember, the germans maybe two years ahead of us. When general groves is appointed to run the Manhattan Project he is assured that he has the highest priority for material. He has the highest priority for recruiting scientists. He has the highest priority for everything, because its use might be determining. And so the Manhattan Project moves as fast as possible to completion. Now most studies of the atomic bomb, or the atomic bombing, the use of the atomic project came in 1845 when harry truman became president. That is a big mistake, because franklin del inner roosevelts rule is absolutely critical in understanding the attitudes towards atomic weapons that truman inherited when he became president. What happens after pearl harbor in the war . What is the environment in which the Manhattan Project develops . Six months after pearl harbor theres the great battles, navy battles of midway and karl c. And the United States defeat the japanese fleet at midway and cardinal sea. That stops the advance of Japanese Forces towards our country. And it begins the process of turning the war in the pacific around, and the difficult, bloody process of island hopping. One island. Battle after battle begins. Thats six months after pro harbor. Thats june, 1942. Thats the war in the pacific. It has turned around within six months. The war in europe. That takes longer. Remember that takes place in september of 1939. The United States comes in right after pearl harbor, and the battle of stalling grad in the winter of 1942, 1943, stops the german advance and begins the process of turning the war a reopened, and moving the soviet forces towards germany. So by the spring of 1943, which is exactly when russ alumnus opens, in april of 1943, the war is moving in the direction of victory for the United States. Churchill and roosevelt, the american military, the British Military leave were going to win the war, if the British Public and the American Public continue to support this difficult, bloody, awful global war. Were going to win it. Analysts, unless, the germans get the bum first. If the germans get the bomb first all bets are off, because as bush said the war could be determining, roosevelt believe that, churchill believe that, all of the military who were informed and there were very few military who were involved in the Nuclear Program it was so secret. But whoever was informed about the Nuclear Program that if we build a bomb first, or if no one builds above that we can win the war first. But if the germans get the bomb first all bets are off. And the scientists of course were behind this belief. So in effect, by 1943, the spring of 1943, only months after loss alamos is opened up the bomb is seen as whatever you want to call it, a magic bullet which it itself could magically win the war. This wasnt such a fantastic and off the wall kind of idea. We talked about radar a couple of moments ago, and how important that was to the british were effort. It was our most top secret effort. And in fact, i think virtually all historians agree that it was the british sapporo de with its radar that allowed the british to win the battle of britain over skies over great britain. It turned hitler to attack the soviet union, rather than finish of the in the period between 1943 and 1944, the Manhattan Project is going at great speed, and progress is being made. Now there are two types of bombs that are being developed. The one out of oak ridge, where uranium 235 is being isolated from uranium 238. And that bomb, if we get enough uranium 235, is going to be a very simple device. They called it a gun tape bomb. Thin man was another name. In the front of the bomb there was a target of uranium 235. Not so much that it would go critical, packed loosely enough so just sitting there. And in the back of the bomb lets call it a plug or a bullet of uranium 235. And when the bomb was dropped the idea was it reached a certain altitude, the idea was an altitude for it to explode. The bullet in the back would be triggered, fly into the target, and it would blow up. That in fact was the hiroshima bomb. That was never tested. That bomb, they had total confidence that it would work unless people forgot to put two particular wars together and that could always happen. But the theory of it was quite clear. So most of the work at los alamos is related to the other type of atomic bomb, which is and plutonium bomb. Plutonium which is a man made element was easier to produce then the uranium 235. So they put some plutonium in the front of the bomb, some plutonium in the back of the bomb. And they discovered, they calculated, they figured out that there was no way that the plutonium bullet could be fired fast and up into the plutonium targeted to make it go up. Plutonium was so active, so much more active than uranium 235, that no matter how fast you fire that bullet about halfway it would start to explode. But it would really fizzle because you wouldnt get the full effect. So we have this investment so to speak in plutonium. How are we going to make it work . And they came up with this idea of a implosion device. Packing the plutonium in lets see a grape fruit size ball, and designing explosives that go all around the plutonium ball that would go off at once. And when those exclusives fat mom, it was almost a, when it hit the right altitude squish it down to a golf ball size and then boom. But boy, that was much trickier than the first bomb. And all of the activity in 1944 was related, or most of the activity was related to figuring out how this could work. And the test of july 19th, 1945 in the, desert was a test of this device. And remember i said in the beginning that this was, scientists, policy makers, general grove involved with the Nuclear Weapons thought about it for the post war period as well this wasnt something that was just for the war. This was something that would affect International Relations in the post war period. So, the advantage of the plutonium bomb is that a plutonium was easy to get. Easier to get then uranium 235. And 2, the design was much more efficient, and youve got more bang for your buck so to speak. So there was this concern that the design would work. So that is whats going on at los alimos, and this is before truman comes into office. But what roosevelt was thinking wa important. What did roosevelt think about this . There is a very important meeting of, september 18th, 1984, after the second quebec conference when roosevelt invites, they have many meetings over several days and a lot of alcohol is consumed, especially by churchill. Roosevelt has to restock everything after churchill leaves. There is a memorandum of what the british call a minute of the discussion the had with respect to the atomic bomb, and it is called the high park minute, or the high park memorandum. It talks o different things. And it is only two, three numbered paragraphs long. In the middle of the first paragraph bomb which is in a petition box is finally available, it might perhaps after mature consideration, be used against the japanese who should be warned that this bombardment movement will be isolated. So i want to repeat that again. I have never in the 50 some odd years that ive been doing research on topics related to Foreign Policy and what not seen anything like this description of how people are thinking when a bomb, which remember is in quotation marks, is finally available, it might perhaps, after mature consideration be used against the japanese. Now lets think about that woulf this discussion be written that way . Maybe during the q and a period people have some questions and a comment. My conclusion is two things. One this was written for history. It was written to make clear that both roosevelt and churchill understood that the bomb was something special. It wasnt the bomb. It was some very kind of special thing but you dont just decide to use it, decide not to use it, no, it might perhaps after mature consideration be used against the japanese. So theyre making the case here, and the second point i would say after mature consideration leave open the possibility that we wont use it because after mature consideration, whatever that entails, we might decide its not a good idea. We might perhaps after special consideration use it. So its left up in the air. So that september of 1940, 1944. So at that time just before this high park meeting, that neil bohr, the famous danish scientist who was smuggled out of denmark by the danish and British Underground when they came to the conclusion that the germans were going to seize him, neil bohr is informed about the Manhattan Project, and i wouldnt say that bohr panics, but he is deeply, deeply troubled, by the possibilities of the bomb entering the world in a post war period and what it would do. So he writes a memorandum that argues that a its not possible to keep this as a secret long term. B the soviets probably know something about this he was in correspondents with some soviet physicists, and he read between some lines and he came to the conclusion after he read about the Manhattan Project that they probably knew something about it, or were working on the same thing. And that if the war ends, and the United States uses it without bringing stolen into this club or community, the arrangement that the United States has with the british, its very likely that a peaceful relationship with the soviet union is going to be impossible. It will send a signal to stolen that fellow, you could be next. So he goes to churchill when hes in london and makes the case that stalin should be informed about the bomb, about the Manhattan Project. Churchill in effect throats him out of the office. He says you stick to your science, ill do the politics. Actually in high park churchill says professor bohr should be much, hes treading, hes giving secrets to the russians, or he wants to to make connections with the current. So bohr comes to the United States and he makes the case to roosevelt before this high park meeting, and roosevelt is much more accommodating as roosevelt is going to be, and seems to be persuaded. Eventually hes not, because churchill is absolutely, adamantly against the idea of informing stolen at all. Well roosevelt does on april 12th, 1945. And we come to the third period and this. The question of how the bomb will be presented to the world. So the promotion period. There are three points of view that emerge in the period between april, 1945, and august 1945. The first point of view is dont introduce Atomic Energy to the world as a weapon used in war and ill explain why shortly. And the second point of view is use the weapon to warn the world of the danger that the world faces now that and atomic bomb is possible. But after the war promote the idea for the International Control of Atomic Energy, creating a condominium or some kind of arrangement that will prevent a nuclear arms race. And the third point of view is use the weapon to end the war and to make it clear to the soviets that the advantage and their conventional forces was now pardon the expression, trumped is there . Adjust your microphone. You have to accentuate that punchline. Bank you. Okay. So truman and the associates. Truman becomes president on april 12th, 1945. He sells to reporters i feel like the moon, the stars, and the sun have poured over my head. Poor truman, he has been Vice President for 82 days. He saw roosevelt once more or less for a photo op. He has been a senator during the 1930s, but focused on domestic issues, he was head of the truman committee, which was a committee designed to prevent waste and war production activities, and he does that very well. And thats one of the reasons hes chosen to be roosevelt Vice President when roosevelt runs for his fourth term, but he knows absolutely nothing about Foreign Policy. Basically, all of his information is inherited from roosevelts advisers, but he does have views. He is strong fuse about the soviet union. Hes the senator who said when reporters asked him after the germans attacked the soviet union, well what do you think about that . And he said well if the germans are winning wish to help the soviets. And if the soviets are when we should help the germans. This is of course before we got into the war. I mean he does not like the soviets. He distrust communism. Hes right out there that make america great. You have to excuse me, its very hard not to throw these things in. So when mullet of, the soviet foreign minister comes to you no check truman out, introduce himself, so on april 21st, or 22nd i think it is, truman starts to begin a conversation, and trim it starts to dress him down, and says you are breaking your agreements that were made at the altar. Youre not doing this, and youre not doing that. And molotov is so taking back, its their first diplomatic meeting. He was so taken back, hes like ive never been talked to life and my life. And he says just like excluding schoolteacher keeper agreements and you wont be talking to like that. And all of the people in the room are acts, absolutely shaken. The secretary of state goes back to his law office and tells people about it were gets to simpson, the secretary of the war. Now simpson on the night of april 12th had mentioned to truman just very casually at the first meeting that theres a very important project that i have to tell you about, and it just goes over trumans had. Thinks he hasnt told him enough to really alert him but the Manhattan Project. Truman is really shaken up because he feels that the atomic bomb is going to be the key to either peace in the post war world, or a very very difficult post war period in the soviet union. So he writes a memorandum, cause the white house and says i have to see the president as soon as possible and within two days he is with, in the oval office with his memorandum, talking to the president. And this is an absolutely amazing memorandum. Its april 25th, 1945. It has nine paragraphs, each numbered, and it begins with the first paragraph, and he breathed this to truman. Within four months we should in all probability have completed the most terrible weapon ever known in human history. One bomb of which could destroy a whole city. And then he goes on with one or two or three, building on that case. And number four. And number five, he says the world in its present state of moral advancement compared with its Technical Development would eventually be at the mercy of such a weapon in other words, modern civilization might be completely destroyed. And then he goes on to say furthermore, number seven, and the light of our present position with reference to this weapon, the question of sharing it with other nations and if so shared, upon what terms becomes a primary question of our foreign relations. Also, and this is really interesting because, comes up quite often. I also, our leadership in the war and the development of this weapon has placed a certain moral responsibility upon us which we cant ensure without very serious responsibility or any which it would further. I will read that again because its important and its pressing. Our leadership and the war and our development of this weapon has placed is certain moral responsibility upon us which we cannot jerk without serious responsibility for any serious damage for any society it would if the proper use of the weapon could be solved we would have the opportunity to bring the world into a pattern in which a piece of the world and our civilization can be received. So, first simpson, the post war period begins on how we handle the atomic bomb. This is what he is telling president truman. Hes making the case. Now president truman, as i said, was not very well informed about Foreign Policy. So he turned to the man who had expected to be nominated as the Vice President. James f burns who had been a Supreme Court justice, he was known as mr. Assistant president during the third term, he was at alltime and took shorthand. He was skilled at shorthand, so he had the very best notes of the ultra president of anyone, and truman reaches out to burns and taps him as his secretary of state. He doesnt officially become secretary of state until july 1st, but hes at trumans side constantly. And of course, hes the one who was spurs in trumans ear that the soviets were breaking their agreements at the altar. Burns has a very, very different view than simpson. The opposite view in fact. Simpsons assistant john mcclain reported that after a conversation with burns, this is a memo that foot rights to simpson, that burns was quite radically opposed to cooperating. He wish that mccoy wrote to have the bump in his pocket after conferences after the war. The actual quote is, during the conference he was intend to attend in london beginning september 4th. So thats after the war. But during the war, burns press secretary, walter brown writes in his diary that burns thought the atomic bomb quote may well put us in a position to dictate our own terms at the end of the war. So back to the original thought. The views may be determining. The bomb may be determining so we have two very opposing positions within the highest level of government. Whats happening in the Manhattan Project . There are also opposing views there about the atomic bomb. There is a group at the university of chicago. Thats led by james funk, who wrote a memorandum known as the frenk report that argues that the atomic bomb shouldnt be used on japan, because if we ever expect to cooperate with the soviet union after the war, such an action will make it impossible. And just to quote a few sentences from a very long report. If we consider International Agreement on total prevention of Nuclear Warfare as the paramount objective if were thinking about the piece in the post war period as our paramount objective, and we believe that it can be achieved, this kind of introduction, that is using the bomb as a weapon, atomic bombs against the world me easily destroy our chances of success. Russia and even ally countries which bareless mistrust in our ways and intentions, as well as neutral countries may be deeply shocked. It may be very difficult to persuade the world that a nation which was capable of secretly preparing, and suddenly releasing a weapon as indiscriminate as the rocket bomb referring to the version one inversion two rockets. It is to be trusted in its proclaimed desire of having such weapons abolished by such International Agreement. So thats the argument the scientists are making at the university of chicago, which is part of the Manhattan Project as you know. Thats where the families favorite squash court experiment took place. On the other hand, robert up in high moore at west alamos is a member of the committee, the interim committee thats organized by simpson. And he believes that the bomb should be used. Hes been told, hes back and forth to washington a lot at this time of the year. And hes been told that we have to invade japan, and the bomb may in fact prevent the necessity of the invasion. So hes supporting it. And in fact at the interim committee he argues that if two bombs are available we should have to use both of them at the same day but that is an idea thats fortunately squashed. Now you are probably know the story of trumans attitude at the conference. It begins at the middle of july, july 15th. And the tests of the atomic bomb takes place as you know in on july 16th. And general groves report arrives in pots ten and given to stimpson who brief some on the 21st of july. And hes briefed in world war ii he says now i know what happened truman he had learned about the atomic bomb and he paused everybody around that afternoon. Suddenly he was a different man it gave him the confidence that the United States was in a position to in effect not only get the war over with this weapon but also to have something that simpson called at potsdam, the great equalizer. The atomic bomb would equalize were neutralize the huge soviet advantage and conventional forces in europe. So trumans attitude changes completely, he calls in general marshal and he says marshall, we came here with the intention of getting the soviets to live up to their promise to invade japan, to come into the war and can we get them to back off that now . Now that we have the atomic bomb . We dont need them. In fact, we dont want them, because we dont want them to participate in the occupation of japan. Yalta, sala had promised roosevelt that within three months of germany surrender, he would come into the war against japan. There was a nonaggression pact between the japanese and the russians. Neither of them needed a two front war so they had this nonaggression pact. But stalin wants a piece of the action in japan after the war and remember, there was this 1905 rousseau japanese war which the japanese won and they took all of a lot of territory from the soviets install and certainly wanted that back. Three months, germany surrenders on may 8th and one month may, june, july, august 8th. Why three months . Why did he enter the were mediately . Why . Because all the soviet troops were on the european front and it would take three months to move all of the forces to the japanese front. So stolen theres no question and marshall says to truman started to any good, they want to come in and indeed thats the case. Kashima on the six and three days later, nagasaki. Why three days . Theres a five day sprint and the reason for the fiveday spread was that it was expected to be a very complicated process for arming the second bomb, the plutonium bomb are on the island of tinian, where the planes to attack japan took off from and when colonel plane comes back after its successful raid on hiroshima, the scientists say, we might be able to do for days because bad weather is expected to come. Thats in effect, what happens. That threeday spread is made by scientists an air force, Army Air Force on the island of tinian, its not a truman decision, its not a simpson decision, its not a general groves decision. Its a battlefield decision. So three days. After the atomic bombings, what effect does this have on sloan . Everybody was worried about stalins reaction and of course, they were right. Paul lattice love soup back, a very wellknown russian historian the new move of hiroshima and nagasaki struck stalling like a thunderbolt. He was shocked. There was a wonderful memorandum of a conversation about a week later that stalin had, with ambassador harrabin, whos the American Ambassador to the soviet union and george cannon, who is the number two man is there and he takes the notes and writes this memorandum. And there are a couple of lines and it, stalin says to heroin, we have entered the war in spite of your attempt to end its before we did so. And he replies, the atomic bomb will end the war, we have its and it was very expensive to build. It will have a great impact on postwar International Relations. That had to be prepared to text. A skilled ambassador like admiral harrabin doesnt say things like that off the top of his head. Its expensive, its going to have a great impact on post war International Relations, meaning weve got it, and you dont. And stalin says, japan was about to surrender anyway and the secret of the atomic bomb might be hard to keep. And i cant help thinking that stalin really had to work hard to suppress a big grin when he said that because the soviets had been getting information on the Manhattan Project since 1943. Stalin knew about the Manhattan Project long before harry truman or afro heroin etc, etc. What about the decisions to use atomic bombs against two japanese cities . The first thing i would say about it it was neither inevitable nor was it necessary in order to end the war in august of 1945. What i say that . There are several reasons. One, the invasion was not scheduled to take place until november 1st. And to, as stalin said, and he knew it because the japanese were trying to see molotov in moscow, he said the japanese had been searching for a way to surrender with conditions for months. We have all sorts of traffic from our decoding of the japanese diplomatic message traffic to this effect. In 1939, the United States broke the japanese diplomatic code. Not the military code but the diplomatic code. And throughout the war, we were reading all their message traffic. It was referred to as magic. And you can see all this stuff on the web. It is fantastic, what we know about what was going on in japan that the japanese didnt know that we know. We were demanding unconditional surrender, which was unacceptable to all of japans leadership because it implied that to the emperor might be considered a war criminal and as you know, at that point in time, the japanese considered the emperor a deity. It was opposed by the military, the Japanese Military for very personal reasons. It was humiliating and the Japanese Military understood that they had lost the war but they were trying to surrender with some kind of saving face. And they wanted conditions. For example, they wanted to disarm their own troops, there were four five conditions. One of them i usually say sarcastically was that the japanese generals should get their tea in the morning served by american sergeants, but none of that was going to be acceptable. But all of japan was absolutely determined to fight to the death if the emperors life was at stake. The Japanese Military proposed a dual strategy. Or in post, not just proposed, in post, a dual strategy on the japanese government. One part was diplomatic, one part was military. The diplomatic part was that japans Foreign Ministry must approach the soviet union and try to persuade the soviet union, bribe them, give back everything that was taken during the 1905 russell japanese war and whatever else made sense. To get the soviets to mediate between japan and the United States, to mediate on behalf of the japanese for better surrender terms than unconditional surrender. They argue that the advantage of this also was that, if they were mediating on our behalf, japans behalf, that would keep them from attacking us, which of course, the japanese realized was a possibility. That is a diplomatic part of the strategy. The military part of the strategy was that they would focus attention, focus their military on all the areas that we are most likely to be the areas of the american invasion. And the argument was that, no, we are not going to be able to defeat the americans but we can bloody them enough so that they will be willing to accept surrender with conditions. So that is the strategy. But stalin intended to be a victor and an occupy into, not a mediator. And once he entered the war, as i said, on august 8th, 1945, the japanese strategy, military strategy, was completely lost. The diplomatic element had failed, but also, with the soviets coming into the war, the military Strategic Planning had failed. Because all of japans troops were going to be in the southern part and it was impossible for the japanese to fight a two front war. And not only that, when the soviets came in, what was the likely consequences . They were going to take the areas that the japanese had taken from them, but they were very likely to take hokkaido, in fact, stalin proposed to truman after the war that he take hokkaido and truman said no way. And the other thing that you have to understand is that the japanese government was virulently anti communist. More anti communist than the americans at that time. So the thought of the soviet union coming into the war, sharing in the occupation, taking hokkaido was japans worst nightmare. The worst nightmare. And so all of a sudden, when the soviets came in, the surrender, japans surrender to the United States appeared to be its best possible option. There was no way the japanese were going to lend themselves to being occupied by the soviet union if there was some way to prevent it. So. I think its fair to say, certainly based on that line of argument and during that q as period, you can sort of talk about other lines of argument. That the atomic bomb did not end the war, it was soviet entry into the war and its probably also fair to say, if the timing was the same since the bomb and the soviets coming into the war occurred simultaneously, more or less, that the bomb did not save any american lives. In fact, i discovered in some research that i did, but two americans who were in a hiroshima jail, to pilots, whose names were norman preset and ralph neil were killed during the atomic bombing. What were the reactions . Were talking about visions of the Manhattan Project. Truman says in his memoirs that when he heard the news, he was on the ship heading back to the United States. He gathered the sailors around him and said, told them that this is the greatest thing in history. When eisenhower heard about it, he reports in his book crusading europe, i was against it. We didnt have to hit them with that awful thing. And there is a whole list of the way he and others who were opposed to it. The one that i find the most interesting is john force dallas, who becomes eisenhowers secretary of state and the massive promoter of retaliation and brinks mentorship with Nuclear Weapon in 1945. , august 45 after the first bomb is used dulles writes eisenhower a telegram and says, if we as a christian nation feel entitled to use Nuclear Energy in that way, men elsewhere will accept that verdict. Atomic weapons will be looked upon as a normal part of the arsenal of war and the stage will be set for the sudden and final destruction of mankind. Taking us back to henry adams. After the war, there is a concerted effort, led by oppenheim or, to bring some form of International Control of Atomic Energy into being. The first report, state Department Reports that he is not named in but he is the designer of the report, was called it comes out in february of 1945. The Truman Administration is not thrilled with this, it turns it over to bernard peru, who presents a different version, his own version to the United States United Nations Atomic Energy commission in june of 1945. By december of 1945, when its voted on, it has to be unanimous to be accepted. The vote is ten to two, russia and the sun soviet union and poland dissent. That is really the end of the possibility of a serious effort to bring some kind of arms control to the Nuclear Issue. I want to conclude in the next five minutes or so with some general points. No decision in history, certainly not any government decision is or was inevitable. If you believe an inevitability, i would say, dont bother to study history. Because history is the study of possibilities. Why was a chosen over b and c . And my view, most importantly, what would have happened if b or c had been chosen . Im going to end with a counter factual. What if the argument of the chicago scientists, the frank report, which i read to you, had carried the day . What if, i after the july 16th test in alma gourd oh, that that was the last use of the atomic bombs . What would have happened after the war . You can imagine that there is no way to keep the Manhattan Project secret and it was the most expensive project in wartime history. Two billion dollars, which today is a drop in the bucket but it was big bucks back then. What if simpsons views about Nuclear Danger had prevailed . And the weapons were not used . There wouldve been a congressional hearing for sure. No special prosecutor, just a congressional hearing. And simpson would have been called as the secretary of war who was in charge of the project and what would he have said . He surely wouldve said what he told truman this where bin can destroy civilization or if its properly used, can save civilization. The United States is not nazi germany, we are not imperial japan, we have our own morality, we have our own way of coming to decisions. And since it was not necessary to use the bomb to end the war, it is inconceivable that we would use such a weapon. Atomic weapons are beyond the pale, atomic weapons are weapons that can destroy human, all human life on earth. We must work to make sure that these weapons do not become part of the arsenals of the world. I ask you, if Nuclear Weapons had been introduced to the world as being a pariah weapon rather than a magic bullet weapon, that was used twice on what oppenheim or later called, in reversing himself, an essentially defeated enemy. With things have been different . I dont know. You dont know, but we all can have our opinions about that. I submit to you that the most important thing that i have said to you tonight is to put that thought in your mind to think about it. To discuss with your children and grandchildren. And to talk about the whole decisionmaking process that leads from point a to point b and finally to a Nuclear Weapons. It seems to me that counter factuals are at the heart of the human condition. Every animal can understand what is happening to it at a particular given moment. And it reacts according lee but only human beings can think about alternatives. We are not lemmings. And it is very, very important to always consider the alternative. Lets think about it in the context of the United States and Nuclear Weapons today. I dont think anyone can argue convincingly that the iran nuclear treaty, for example, was inevitable. What about north korea, right now . Is there an american policy that is inevitable . I dont think so. Choices are going to be made based on assumptions. Sometimes those assumptions are right, sometimes those assumptions are wrong. There is nothing inevitable here. There are compelling logics and i will end with one that takes us back to the concerns of the most for cited scientists of the Manhattan Project. Its a comment by the Canberra Commission in 1997, discussing Nuclear Weapons and the world. They say, the proposition that Nuclear Weapons can be retained in perpetuity and never used accidentally or buy decision, defies credibility. And that is a real downer to end on. laughs i apologize for that. But it really is the crux of the issue, today. The world that we face if Nuclear Weapons keep proliferating is a world that is going to be far, far more dangerous than the world we have lived through. Thank you very much. applause . Yes. Is there a microphone around . Right here. Yes, go ahead. Use the bomb on the soviet union . Were we was there a suggestion certainly not during the war but afterwards, especially during the eisenhower ministration with a massive retaliation, brinkmanship, the war plans that we have managed to be able to research are filled with plans to destroy the soviet union in a week. Yes, absolutely. Can you repeat the questions . Okay. Right. Thank you for a very good presentation. I would like to correct you by saying that admiral heroin was not an admiral. His first name. Admiral. Truman had little to deal with Foreign Policy but he served in the artillery in world war i and he said sondland was struck as a thunderbolt by understanding that we had Nuclear Weapons thats. Not what happened at pots down. I i quoted vladislav zubok. He was wrong. No, the use of the bomb on nagasaki and hiroshima struck him like a thunderbolt. He knew about the weapons but the fact that we would use them on what he thought was a defeated enemy, he saw as a warning to him that the soviets could be next. Im sorry that i wasnt clear enough thank you for your question. Do you believe as he intimated that heisman bergh deliberately slowed the german effort for the bomb down . That is a big controversy and just to explain it to the rest of the audience, highs in burke, the famous german physicist who claimed that after the war, that he knew how to build an atomic bomb but will not tell hitler about it because it was too horrible weapon to give to hitler. All of the german physicists that the russians didnt get were rounded up in an operation near the end of the war and sense to farm hall doug and the building in britain, which was completely bogged. And we have the transcripts. When the announcement came over the radio that hiroshima had been bombed, han said to the rest of them that if thats true, youre all second raiders. Implying that they were trying to do it. Highs in burke argues that he did know how to do it but he wouldnt reveal it. The historians of science that i have read make a fairly persuasive case, i think, that his calculations were wrong. On the other hand, thomas powers, a friend of mine, also wrote a strong case in a biography of heisman burke, defending him. I guess its kind of up in the air. What do you believe . What i believe . I guess im more inclined to believe that he made a mistake. But without evidence. Thats different. Way in the back. Why did often howard changes views so quickly . Use the bomb and internationalize . Why did oppenheim or changes views so quickly . He was convinced, during the war, when he served on the committees that it was necessary to use the bomb to prevent an invasion and very soon after the war, he learned, he was very plugged into the War Department and he learned that it wasnt necessary. On two occasions that i know of, one, in a public speech and one in an article in the earliest versions of the bulletin of atomic scientists, i think it was a june 46 issue. He actually wrote it in writing that it was used against him essentially defeated enemy. But he never argued publicly that we shouldnt have used it. Yes, sir. With the decision to use the bomb have been different if roosevelt had lived . Of course, thats another counter factual, your guess is as good as mine. I tell my students when i say that, your guess is as good as might actually, its not as good as mine. laughs but youre guesses ok. I have come to believe, i have done a one 80. Ive come to believe, the high park memorandum that i read to you is a part of that, that if roosevelt had lived it would not even used to the way it was used. Here is the additional reasons. Roosevelts primary goal for the post war period was good relations with stalin, with the soviet union. A very persuasive cases were being made that if that is your primary goal, using the balm on japan in august 45, the way we did, is going to undermine that goal. I think that roosevelts goal of good relations would have predominant it. Yes. Lady. Madam. What do you think about north korea . Nuclear weapons, if one country pulls the trigger, their innocence destroying themselves or the strength someone else at the same time. Theyre not going to pull the trigger and then someone says lets talk about whether we should bomb you. Where is this all leading . Im glad you asked that question because, like everybody else, ive been thinking about that. I was in seoul last november during the election for of all things, a conference on Nuclear History and we had a lot of koreans speaking about their view of north korea. And much to my surprise, the south koreans, the ones that were at this conference, argued that while kim jongun appears to be a bit crazy, and totally unpredictable, its a strategy and he no more wants to see this very good life that he and the elite in north korea live completely destroyed by starting a war. And the at the thing to be said is that what the south koreans what they worry about most, is the United States taking some initiative that could start a war without consulting with them. Since they believe, they understand the situation a lot better. Of course, they have the most to lose so they would not take Nuclear Weapons to destroy soul. There are conventional everybody in the business, so to speak, believes that so many targeted on so these various countries having Nuclear Weapons, its a mexican standoff. If you dont have, it your week, if you have it youre stronger but. People Pay Attention to you,. I ask yourself the question, what is north korea want to spend all this money on Nuclear Weapons . Why . Because i have our attention. Theyre the bad guys and they have this perfect deterrent situation. They have south korea right there that they can swat like a fly with. And we cannot without taking the chance of south korea being destroyed bomb north korea. Why doesnt trying to do something . China doesnt want to see regime change collapse and worst of all, they talk about how china doesnt want refugees streaming across the border. That is the number to issue. They dont want south korea on the yellow river we and south korea, which is an ally of the United States, and have the United States on the yellow river they entered the war. They entered the war for that reason. It seems that the situation in the middle east is probably the most unstable and dangerous situation. Israel says they have the bomb, but everybody who has had a bomb has tested it to make sure it works. We dont know if it works or maybe they do because somebody else tested it. We dont know that. On the other hand, iran developing the bomb and attitudes there and sensibilities there are a whole lot different than we could ever understand. I think that is probably from iran or israel . Both sides. We will use it . A couple of things, first, you recall that i mentioned that the iranian bomb was not tested. That was the one that was dropped on hiroshima and did a pretty good job. We. Testing is not an issue. Its very likely that the test of south africa, way back when was probably an israeli test. Who can argue with the point that its really unstable . Ill make a different argument then Prime Minister netanyahu would make. He called an Iranian Nuclear arms iran an existential threat to israel. I dont think its an existential threat to israel. It is an existential threat to israels hegemony in the area. Iran is not north korea. Purja is a civilization that goes back back, back and back. They understand that if they use Nuclear Weapons, israel would blow them out of the water. Maybe the United States would be in there too, using it. Speaking of blowing, the wind comes remember chernobyl and all the poisoning. The bomb has become this, and it was from the beginning, this is silver bullet, this im king of the mountain and all the littler kings are on top of the mountain to. Unless there is a real reversal in some way, which i certainly favor, global zero. We are going to have more states with Nuclear Weapons. I suppose we have to, churchill said that jean, jaw, jean is better than war, war, war. The idea that we dont talk to these people because theyre not behaving the way you want them to his insane. If you look at the cold war, between 1945 and the end of the cold war, when the United States certainly in the 19 fifties, we were hysterical about communism, absolutely certain that they want to take over the world, they were going to take over america, they were going to be, if you can stop them in vietnam they were going to be in california. It was crazy. We had an embassy in moscow, we talked to them constantly, im writing a book on the cuban missile crisis now. The reason the cuban missile crisis did not end in a disastrous war was because kennedy and khrushchev were talking, constantly. There were quite a few letters between them and that single five six days. Youve got to keep talking. We should have embassies everywhere. This idea of cutting the state department budget. We need to triple the state department budget, thats what we need to do. Yes, sir. Excuse me . If the majority of the japanese people at the end of the war were willing to lay their life down for the emperor, that doesnt sound like a defeated enemy to me, what about the argument that as horrific or unfortunate as whatever word you want to use as it is, we must eliminate the japanese peoples will to fight by facing them with a weapon which poses a threat of sure in eilish and. Second question, real quick. What makes you think that an unused weapon of this magnitude after the wars over, would be recognized by the world as something terrible and results in an International Effort to ban it when history of previous arms controls, Geneva Convention everything, was against weapons that had been used in war. What about the argument that using its horrific as it was, created an incentive to see the true horrors of war and result in an International Movement to control the weapon . It is a perfectly legitimate argument. Youre not alone or making it. There are historians who study this issue, the way i do, who are convinced that that is the way to look at the issue. But, i go back to the idea that it was obvious to every scientist who was involved in Nuclear Weapons, even before the bahamas built. I read the memo that bush wrote to stepson and the president saying that this bomb, if it is possible to build it, will be determining. It is beyond the pale. To compare Nuclear Weapons to anything before is a false analogy, first of all. Second of all, the results of using it are what we see what weve got. If you think that declaring it unacceptable weapon would not have changed things, then i cant argue with you. I am thoroughly convinced that if Nuclear Weapons were introduced as beyond the pale, unacceptable and no civilized countries would use them, International Relations had to be organized around the effort to make sure that Nuclear Weapons are not produced, anywhere. Anymore. After the one test of july 16th, 1945, so we know that they can exist. It is quite possible that the history of the cold war would have been quite different. Certainly in the first ten years. Remember, stalin dyson 53. Khrushchev and mullin cough during the transition period reach out to the United States and try to break through the barrier of hostility that exists, but it was totally rejected by the eisenhower administration. And the rest is history. I appreciate your putting that on the table because it is important. A lot of people think that way. One more question. Over there. Should we acquired should require Nuclear Weapons before north korea attacks soul . There is no way that can happen because we dont know where they all are. If youre going to drop ten or 20 megatons on a Hydrogen Bomb on north korea, ive been to the dmz, it took me about an hour and 15 minutes by bus to get there. Nuclear weapons just cannot be used on that continent to bring about any kind of result. I think we have been cut off. applause acting Homeland Security secretary chad wulf testifies thursday on capitol hill, he will discuss his agencys response to unrest in portland and the deployment of dhs Law Enforcement personnel to protest across the nation. On racial injustice. Live coverage of the Homeland Security committee begins at 10 am eastern on cspan. Online at cspan. Org, or listen live on the free cspan radio up. We can ice this month, we are featuring American History tv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan three. Friday night at eight eastern, a look at hiroshima, nagasaki and the end of world war ii, for the 75th anniversary of your shia. We will show you a documentary examining the august 6th 1945 atomic bombing of hiroshima, japan. Through the stories of several survivors. The film also features a young family in hiroshima born after the bombing, we are trying to make sense of the tragedy during the 50th anniversary. American history tv this weekend and every weekend on cspan three. On thursday, the Senate Armed Services committee will hold a hearing on pentagon on the nations, including the post for inspector general, Deputy Defense undersecretary and ifs assistance defense secretary. Live coverage begins at 9 am eastern, on cspan three, online at cspan. Org, or listened live