Bycongress in 2009 conducted the smithsonian museum, the american folklife museum, and the Southern Oral History Program at the university of North Carolina chapel hill. Fathermy parents and my was born and raised on the farm. That was his life. That is what he loved to do. The first five children were. Orn that first five were very young when he died. Jones, dad, ernest married my mother and had more children. Us my dad raised all 10 of because he was very, very young when that dad got killed. Was ly, what he did she was very disciplined he was very disciplined. He had a seventh grade education, mom had a seventh grade education, but very brilliant people. Had,f the ambitions they and they gave us as kids. Two goals for us. He wanted all of us to be educated and to see all 10 of us in heaven. He wanted us to be committed to church, hard work. I had the pleasure of going to school all the way through elementary, all the way through high school, and i never missed a day. Us on mean and tough on the school, so we had to get up at 4 00 in the morning, milk the cows, feed the pigs, and do all of that. Walk one mile from the house to the dirt road where the bus came 6 45. Catch the bus at everybody, theto boys and the girls the same way. We had the fortune of understanding work very early and going to school very early. Said. S kind of what dad he said when he bought his first acre of land, he was 13 years old. He paid 1. 25. It took him six months to make that. So the farm we grew up on was mcennona, butn he added to the acreage. We farm to cotton we farm to farmed corn we cotton. He created a large piece of the farm. We had berries and all of that. Made from the we sale of fruit and vegetables is what he used to farm the cotton, corn. What was the nature of the town in those days . James when i was born, there were a lot of folks there. It has never been an incorporated town. It was just a village. When i grew up, two or 300 kids maybe. What happened is most of the migrated,up with me, took off, went to detroit, dallas, texas, houston, texas, all of those places, looking for work. We were the only black farm group in willis phil willisville. All the other kids worked on , and that was hard, because they were not allowed to go to school. They came to school maybe around thanksgiving, but by march they had to come back to work. A lot of them did not have the opportunity i had to go to school from grade one through high school. Interviewer how did your father manage the farm without all that extra help that would have been there if he had not sent you to school . Enough,ll of us was big the older sisters and brothers, there were older kids who dropped out of school and just kind of wondered. He would get those kids and bring them back and they would work there with us. He would pay them at the end of the day. They did not own they worked on the farms that they did not own. A lot of the times the problem with that system was they never made enough money and it never worked hard enough to pay off debt. Would happen to come over when the state fair was taking place and would say, come here and i will give you work so you have a few bucks to go to the fair. Everybody wanted to go to the fair, but they did not have any money. They were gracious to come over and work at our place as well. Interviewer tell me about church. Where are active in the naacp were they active in the dim in the naacp. Sunday was a day you could not touch the farm. You had no choice but to get up, down the dirt road, go to church. All day long church, not one service. You went to church in the morning. And when you got out of that church, you went to another church. My mom had a beautiful singing voice and everybody in the neighborhood wanted to come saying. We hopped in the back of the truck and go. If somebody had a meeting, we would go. So it was church, church, church. Politics and race relations. Everybody call my mother vic. A lot ofpassed away, people called the funeral home, and someone said, who is this precious jones . The undertaker says Everybody Knows her as vic. Country said the you cannot have that funeral. Postpone the funeral because we want to come to the funeral. That is when the word got out it vic, so hundreds of people came in. But mama was very active in organizations, the naacp and magnolia in magnolia. She would go to the meetings. When she would come back, she would talk. We got to do some things. She would talk about how we need to do better, how people need to learn how to fix up their homes and all that, stop depending on outside people. When they would have those meetings, she and her sister would get in the back of the pickup truck and they were gone. Sheas not a thing would not ask permission. She would get in the truck and go to the meeting. For kids growing up in a rural area, they were glad to jump in the back of the truck and go somewhere. That was her. She was just very active all over the place. About whate learned people were doing, she would come back to church and talk to people about what we need to do is we need to get the men together to do this, and the women get together, because that is the kind of thing she would learn from the naacp. Do you remember interviewer do you remember a few things from the 50s, you board,rown b board v to montgomery to little rock . Was that talked a lot about the house was that talked a lot about in the house . James the one thing i remember was the brown case. Thurgood marshall and my dad always my dad always had this big old radio. It was very powerful. We could pick up st. Louis. That is how i kept up with baseball. I always had the radio on. Put out, on radio, noon, all they negroes standstill at noon because the Supreme Court is fixing to make an announcement that will change this whole nation. Schoolwent to the little where i was going to school and told the teachers about it and said we need to make sure everybody hears what is about to be said. He had that much politics in his head. People got those radios and everybody was listening for that announcement. He stayed on top of stuff. He was that same way about farming. , butuld not borrow money what he would do is he kept his on what whitee farmers were doing, and some of the wealthier white farmers plows, they would go get alow and would new one. What he did is he would ask the white guys, the way owners, what are you they going to do with that plow . Oh, we have another one. I want to see if i can get that plow. He would take it to the school we went to, the vocational school, and the kids what experiment with welding what experiment with welding. We would use those plows. He was on top of the farming as well as the political side of things. Interviewer the fact that your father owned his own farm, how much does it matter . To theways, in relation black community locally, and unfolded inur life a sense of how you measured your own possibilities and independence . The first part, on the when mom and dad had to people who lived on other farms and they had very poor houses, he knew that if we did any kind of work on those houses, they would get tossed off the farm. Would haveld do, he us go and help them. And put it cut wood on the inside to seal the holes and everything, and that was no cost. That was something we, his sons, we had to do it. And i remember the one time , someoner under me said, you will do so much. We are so thankful. Take this. He said, i dont take no money. This is something we do for folks. And my dad would say, did you take any money . I said, no, sir. And he said, give me that quarter. He took that quarter and we went to church sunday. He made him take that quarter up to the pulpit and put in an offer. Lot of elderly a people. He was just that kind of caring. I was kind ofide, trained to do something pretty good, but i did not see it because dad and mama would go to the school and have all these talks with the teachers. What they was talking about, later on i learned from my older sisters and brothers, is that mama d james, data dad and mama is very proud of you and they tell those teachers to push you because you have smarts. I learned that a little later. I always had to do everything at school. We would have a school program. We want you to be the mc, we want you to start that group, we want you to be over the agriculture program. I had all the assignments. When i would come home, i did not get a chance to go out and play. James, you have to get all that stuff done. Between feeding hogs and chickens and doing all that, by that time it is dark. I did not see anything in that. When i got a little further in school, toward the 11th grade, i could see it. We want you to do some marvelous things, james, and do you are smart, you do good work in school, you are going places. That is when they started encouraging me. And then when that happened, i was playing basketball. This was a real shock to me because we worked hard. We asked dad, why do other kids come work on the farm . Why do you pay them but you do not pay us . He said, i am saving for hard times. It clara said it, well dad is pretty hard and clara said, well, dad, it is pretty hard. He said it, you do not know a hard times is. He would semia dollar send me a dollar. Back in those days, dollar was filthy rich. Interviewer i want to talk about everything that is going to happen after you get there in 1961, but im curious how much the early 60s, late 50s, made an impact on you. 1957, greensboro in 1960, all of what happened after that. Favor note big favor, but one thing that prepared me really well for that and mamaecause daddy listen to the radio and they paid attention to that kind of stuff and they were really on it, and i remember one son, ifa said to me, ever are put in that situation, do not turn it down. Go forward with it. That was the result of what i did not realize was that my mama and my aunt and daddy, in the early days, they had buses come through the small town. Even in those days, they were the only black folks that would get on the bus on the front seat. It kind of came back to me. Oh, we are integrating the bus lines. When central high came through and those were her words. Whenever you get an opportunity to do something for other people, do not be afraid, because he did not come from and afraid she said, it was dangerous when you all went. People did not like that. You have all been through it in seen it. Comes,n the opportunity go to the head of the line and be brave. They did talk about that. Off to school, and had all that in my head i had all them in my head. I was not looking for anything, but i when got to pine bluff. Nd saw a real segregation enough, butganized i saw it as i went downtown. N inns and all of those. The only black folks i saw were maids. That registered in my mind. Son, i will not tell you what to do. Somewhere and we dont youling never go through a backdoor. If whites go through the front door, you go through the front door. I heard that from her. Family youour mentioned that you weighed your own cotton. Can you tell us that story . James here is who lived on a plantation. Kids who lived on a plantation would work hard. When you picked that much cotton, you are getting 60 pounds, 65. Some guy was really good and hit as much as 80. When they brought their bags to the gin, white people do not let them weigh their own cotton did not let them weigh their own cotton. They would bring their bags, drop them, go back. My dad and mom went to the gin. They were gun packing black folks. Gin would sit right at the with a doublebarreled shotgun into shells between their fingers. When we got our cotton, come on, thereand they would go up and we would weigh our own cotton. The kids who would bring the cotton to the gin could not weigh theres. Theirs. Sometimes it would be 70 pounds cotton. Well, john, what do you think . Give or take 40 pounds. Pretty good. They were taking away 40 pounds from them. I would sit there and witnessed that. , we felt pretty comfortable because they were there with those guns. N we weighed our cotton [laughter] yourviewer how could family get away with that . James everybody in willisville and the surrounding area believed that if they bothered my family, a lot of killing would take place. They believed that because my brother had been in a real bad racial situation. Memberthe only black town called a mcneil. He got a job working on the railroad. Train, he wasthe doing the hard work, putting those spikes and all that. And when he went wherever they when and on the way back, they got to mcneil, they told troy to get off the train negroescks couldnt ride the train through mcneil, it was a small town. And troy would not get off the train. Just like my parents, he had his weapon. Fight. A hard, knockdown he was cut by a whole bunch of white folks. They chased and shot him up pretty bad, but he got through the woods and all that, and so the white people decided they would come down to our house and kill him. Waters is the guy who in willisville had the store. He told us, dont go over there. You will get killed. So my dad had some brothers and some cousins, and you had to go through these woods to get to the farm. About dark, they were coming to get troy. Man, there was so much shooting and people got hit. I heard people scream i have been hit. What dad and his brothers did, when they were shooting people, they went to them and took their guns. They let them go, but took all their guns. It was kind of known that we people to mess with. Interviewer how old were you . James i was 68. Interviewer excuse me, how old were you then . James 8, 9. Ville to willis willisville. My dad made the comment, if they come down here and mess with me, i will kick their ass. I thought he was talking to me. I walked all the way to willisville and told this white. Uy, womack he said, i will take care of that later. Tell me it was like, theat it was impressions you formed when you arrived in pine bluff . Campus, because that was a very important black institution. There, to pineot bluff, that was my first big city. The campus was very pretty. It was really exciting. Jumpstartelped me real fast is this school i went to, oak grove high school. It was a very good school. Fact, about four guys from that school were professors at pine bluff. I did not know that before i came along. My brother in milwaukee similar letter and said, there is a guy in the vocational school. Him oneind him and tell of my older brothers sent you. He was dr. Haney. I went there and when i walked into his office, he looked up and said, i do not know your name, but you are sure one of them jones. He recognized me. Oh yeah, you look just like ernest jones. He really was telling me all about the school. Walked around, took me all over campus. Boys,d, this is one of my ernest joness boys. Smart, andeet, kind, i went all professors to keep an eye on him. He is a good student. He came from a high school that had all of that. Said, you might need to taper luminary courses. He said, you are from a small town. What did you have in high school . I said, i had algebra. I had trigonometry. I had physics. I had biology, chemistry. He said, what kind of school did you go to . I said, i had a very good school. As a matter of fact, the handpickedmported, teachers from all around to come to that school. Interviewer was it private . , but there were four that were arkansas by way back in 1931 interviewer roosevelt . They think they were were, it was a group out of new york somewhere built these schools way back. I know our school was opened in 1829. The schools were built and they had a vision of folks coming. The schools were built with dormitories. These teachers came from other places and lived on campus. I think the quakers. There were two allblack school districts. Mine was one of them and the other was arkansas city, where ebony magazine johnson came out of. Unlike a lot of other schools, we had books. Wouldof the white schools give old books to the black schools, but we had good books. Are describingu a personal history. James yeah. Bluff, i was pine had metfortable and somebody that had been in ralston. He introduced me to dr. Marshall. Dr. Marshall was a professor on campus and he had another house by his house. He asked me, are you going to live in a dormitory . I said i have to live somewhere. Dr. Haynes said, put him in your house over there. You will take a liking to this young man. So we started talking, and he said, you sure know a lot to be a country boy, a country kid. You would expect the city kid to know everything. We started talking. He was the one told me, he said, there are some folks in little rock that are trying to get civil rights things started. T to smith and didnt have any luck. All of those kids were city kids. You to meetant those guys. That is when greenwich i met greenwich. ,o greenwich came down greenwich and bill hansen. A little bit later on, i met him. Later, they both came and started talking. Man, youaid, dang, already have done what we tried to do in your hometown. I said it, that is how i was raised. He said it, it must be a piece of cake for you. That was not when they were trying to get it started, but they said they were working in little rock. When we come back to pine bluff, we need to sit down and talk because this is a college town and there is a lot of segregation here, he said. You have all these mcdonalds and all this. In this city is driven by this university and this city is driven by this university. So that is how i met them. Interviewer do you remember, more specifically, about this group of folks, hansen . One is black, one is white. Met, greenwich talked about how he had been involved in labor and union groups a lot. Talked, heansen talked about how he had been involved in sit ins and things like that. The first thing bill said is, we students. Ganize they had already been around. Was, i amansens take a white boy and i do not need to be leading it. That is what he said, but we need a black person. You have already done all this stuff. If you went into one of these White Restaurants and was arrested, what would your parents say . Here, and come up they would come to the jailhouse, and they would say, james, is this what you want to do . They wouldid yes, say you will do whatever you need for us to support you and go back home. Me about this know, if you, you get involved and they talked about, dont you ever go through no backdoors. Whoa, is your mom a civil rights worker . I said that, i guess not. Not. Said, i guess were. That is how they brian womack was what we considered a very rich white man in willisville. And as i got involved, he was talking to mama about, you need to go get that boy, hes up and theing all of this, black schools where he needs to be. Word, and that is when all of this happened. Mama went and jumped in the car and him, made him take her, d him, i ought mr. Womack was a big white guy. It was freezing cold and he was sweating so bad because he knew mama had that pistol in her purse. Wouldnt doy mama that. In little rock, that was the issue. Everybody was afraid their parents would take them out of school and away and that was why they couldnt get anything started. Think that do you what might end up actually end was the the problem folks at the college, that your president . James i did not think that it all at all. Looked at the hotel that was segregated. I went down there by myself. Just to check it out. And when i came back, they started talking about we need to protest these places. Talknow, i said, let me go to some students. Them, i told to thought, my parents but i also said, if your parents will come up and jump on you for doing it, do not go. Octor heris d husband was at the high school. I went and met with him. He said, i have some Young High School students at townsend high. Chool, a Big High School kids, what youre talking about doing, they need to get involved with a guy like you. He said, they are smart, but they want to be thugs. But i think if they were around you, you would change them. So i met with them and talk to them about my parents, what that was like, and they liked that. About going here violent, but very we will be a nonviolent group. I mean, they would hit you in the face, knocking when the down knock you down, you just have to get up. Interviewer why did you think that was a good idea, the nonviolence . Well, the way i looked at , if you can be nonviolent behe white people would happy to beat you down. They would be happy doing that to you. In spite ofhat, it overu could overcome a time period. Downt that if i was beaten and the other kids were scared and afraid of it, i think eventually they will come around. They did. Me is i was helped not scared. I was not scared. My knowledge was not good enough to feel that i definitely could win doing it right then, but i see in whiteould peoples faces that it was because i saw young white girls and young white boys hitting me and stuff and run. And when i would look up, i saw them crying. I said, they are doing something they do not want to be doing. And when i told him that, he said, for real . I said, yeah. They were told to come up in hit us. That was not in their heart. And i saw that. Oferviewer the end february, 1963 and woolworths in woolworths, how did you feel at the end of the day . James that was scary. The first day we went to woolworths, we try to go there tried to go there, it was locked. We could not get in. It was closed, renovation or something. Diane was in town. What is dianes last name . She is still going strong. Diane. An extremelyas light girl. She went into will words to eat because into woolworths to eat because they thought she was white. It was open. When we all went in, she said, reason. 11 00 for some i think that was a time a lot of people would be in their, so we piled in there and it was a had beenbecause diane in the freedom rides and all that stuff, enter strategy was if there are a lot of people in there, they would not hurt you because there was not enough room. And she said, if they start hitting you, fall to the floor. Fall, fall towards people. When we did that, all the white it was kind of fun and a little bit scary. That is how it went. Two things. Butad a pretty good crowd, that was shortlived because dr. Davis called us in. To pinethe parents came bluff and they were snatching the kids up. I think when they finished, dr. Davis and the parents, three or four of us were left. Nash, i think joanne stayed. As a matter of fact, joanne is a professor at pine bluff college. I think she just retired. She stayed. There was this tall guy from texarkana. He stayed on. There were about four of us. Went to see the president , and he was pretty pointblank. Day if us the very next anybody went downtown, they were suspended. The interesting thing about that, that was kind of different. It was only about four or five of us that was going, but when we went the next time, there were about 12 or 15 folks. So itot come to kind of grew a little bit there. Interviewer how did you make your decision to take that hit, take the expulsion . Buthave said a lot already, still that must have been not an easy thing. Case, no, but, in my everybody asked me, what are your plans what do your parents think . I said, my parents support what i am doing. The tall guy from texarkana called his parents and talked to them and they let him alone. He washer guy, nash, from pine bluff. He stayed there. I was kind of like the voice of encouragement. And, youd listen to me know, what if we get hurt . I said it, we are going to get hurt. War. Is like a and woolworths, they attacked us, but there was no jail except that. Eventually we will have to go to jail. We went back to her three times two or three times. The most violent was when we mcdonalds. I think that crowd really meant to hurt us. Was thewhat helped us locked the door, locked us on, butturned that gas i think if we had not been locked in, the audience i saw on the outside really had weapons, a bat, i think they would have hurt us bad. Interviewer can you describe that more. I dont understand, turned the gas on . James when we were in there, the kids working in there went out. We were still at the counter waiting to be served. They locked the doors. Now, the gas was not natural gas. Fall gas. T it burns you, gets in your eyes and shut your breathing off. Interviewer teargas . James yeah. Was my brother troy was in houston. Home about that gas because police would shoot it sometimes. Is, that waterat helps a little. Make sure to get some water, a commode, put your head in the water. He told me that. Gas, i they shot that went to the sink, the water was still on, i said, everybody get the water. Off, but wet cut were surviving pretty good. Burned, birdie up burned you up. Interviewer who turned it on, the police or the owner . James i guess it was the owner. Itn they came to the back, just sprayed and we were in there. That is how that came about. We had a little water that calmed it down a little. Interviewer one of the key things in these moments was that the tensions that just could not be avoided in those moments. We talked about davis. I guess he had motives. Sure money was not quebec cut back sharply for the college. The naacpe clergy, elites, the black business community. Can you talk about how . James the black Community Came down on us very hard. There were two black business in thethat supported us entire black neighborhood. Mr. Brown was a funeral home guy. He was the only one. The white population got very upset with him because he was said to us, this thing got out of hand, but i will say this part right here. If you will end up in jail, do not worry about it. I will bond everybody out of jail. That is all he said to us. Mr. Brown, the funeral home in. His son was an older guy. His son was about to take over. He said, dad, do you want to do this . Do not, son, if you want to do it, get out. I will do it. His son came back and said, i will help. Was dr. Heon was a dentist, a very wellknown dentist. Only one at of the medical community. He came after it was over with and asked was anyone hurt. If anybody gets hit in the mouth, i will take care of it at no cost. So those two were the only two business people. Would go towards a couples, there was businesses, a club and something else. People told us to go to the other side. These are black businesses. Now, one thing that came to our deal, i think sealed the is there is this guy named reverend allen. Of a largepastor Methodist Church. And i think reverend allen may have been from new york or somewhere. We do not know who he was. He was this guy in this blue suit. Go igetting ready to think to holiday inn, because that is where we got the first arrest. This guy, nice blue suit, and we were standing at this holiday in n, and this guy walks up and says, these are students. They have an education. Their parents have worked hard, gave them money to come to go to school. They have money to come into your place and pay for their meals. And we were all sitting there. We had no idea who this guy was. Whatever, heer came out and said, who are you . He said, i am reverend allen. He said, does the Methodist Church know you are involved with this . He said im not involved with anything. This is our future. He said, you need to get off the premises or you will go to jail. Standing hereust and having a conversation. Take me with you. I got the impression we all got excited but it looked like there was something about him being a methodist that kind of calmed them away. That is when he turned around my church doors open door is open. It well, thank you. Church. And went to the this might be a going to jail thing because this guy had Police Standing by. We walked to the church. We came the next day, and the , the kidshey came from town. About six or seven of them. Saidked in talk to him and and there was this real dark skinned guy. All these guys had nicknames. O, hotdog, allp these nicknames. It took me a long time to figure out their real names. He said, no, hansen and mr. Greenwich, we are going down with you on this one. He said it, when it is all over with, we will get our punches in there. Back. We know how to get it may be five or six months later. We know how to get back. They said, we are going down with you. There will be no fight about it. So they are, they did that. That was the first arrest. Two things happened close in time that were very significant. Successfulrst ever integration at a restaurant also,in pine bluff, but critically, that is when the arrests start. The Police Department switched tactics. As you were saying, you get to a point where you think, we may be heading towards arrest. When that moment arrived, i wonder how you made your calculation because of the implications of jail, jails in those places at the time. Think there was a fear, because we moment, had the beating and all that. Hotel taking the , i think the College People in the crowd was real nervous, but the young guys had been to jail. They were kind of like an asset. It is no big thing. It will just be crowded and nasty. I said, what you doing . Oh, we have been in there before. Of calmedk that kind their nerves a little bit, those younger guys have been there. By, and heleman came did not go to jail but was think the street, and i when people looked around and saw the faces, even a distance away, it kind of made you feel a little bit better. We kinda of got a little support. But what going to jail did was amazing to me. The jail thing is when the old black people came out. Jail, and they had a meeting at reverend allens church. There were no College Students or anything like that, but i was told the church was packed. About havingking to bond us out and all that. Said, some of the old it, and wed some had rebelled out. That church group, i think population, that shifted the whole city, that, we saw a lot more yelling and cursing and white people started throwing objects but they were not that close to us. They were throwing at us. At first, it was knocking you down. Like, i think that will have some impact here. The old people did not march with us but they would come to the church. They started doing things like going to the jail house and asking people if they could bring kids food and at first, they said no. I do not know who changed that when they brought the food they let us out of a part where they lock you up and they hold you in a holding cell because before they send you the bars. Us in. Eople actually let they let them bring in that food. From that point on, we see a few more people coming and stuff like that. Thing happened that is a campus,cary is on somebody said if we do not stop teameating, the sports would lose because they would take all of the money. I think that was a scare tactic. When we were out of jail, a lot of girls were coming to cs. Big Football Players came and threatened to bust our schools and that was scary. Some guys did take that seriously. No sports, no scholarship. Very scary. What was the resolution of your legal case in the narrow, legal sense . The attorney for us, it was a young and small black guy. No, hes is not going to participate. But i think way later, bill clinton appointed him to be a federal judge. And he walked into church on a sunday afternoon. Tons of people came. We just love you. Andame and just walked in said i would handle the case and ironleft like that stop not sure what happened to the case. I do not remember going to court. I do not know if it was thrown out or what because the big , he was, the whole, civil he was appealing his case to the federal level. He started coming down. So we went to war again. He said, can done you tell the people to come down here . I know we had a little thing. To spend thethere night. I want to make a transition toward what would be your decision he did not want to relinquish his role. Kind of got through it but do it that way. The votinge about and registration work and other ask,ams let me first did you go to atlantic occasionally . Did folks come to atlanta how did the relationships work out . They would have a coordinated meeting were all the different states involved would exchange thoughts, what are you doing here, how did you overcome that, and that. So i got a good feel for it. One thing i have felt i thoughty about was ad a better feel for because a lot of folks back in , when i got to a lante and would go down, all of the boys were big city boys. They would be sitting up in order to say we will go down the road to the store. It took them three hours because they would use educated and articulate all the big words and i would just sitting there like, what are you all doing . Aw a lot of when they would ask, they would comment, i would talk very specific the about the level of ,olks out there in the issues and i do not think that will happen. Said, what you are doing is a direct connection. That is a wonderful thing. Asked me, do you want to send people . There is a group, a great singing group, send the group up here. Theve a lot of people, church folks love that. Lets slowly graduate come up with those guys, they came and saw the big crowd. All they wanted to do was sing trying to good time get people to vote. They need to be highly respected. They had a little planning. He was promoted to management. The folks who never thought it would happen, you have to make an announcement to make it happen. That is the kind of stuff, we do not have to go into a White Restaurant to eat. If they want to do that, they can. Went. S the direction i public accommodations, you can do that, the Voter Registration and starting to run education, you were talking about the schools question. I have seen the numbers for what the program accomplished in darn short, in order. 24 months. More people signing up despite the 66 governors race. And, we are back on after a short break frequent equipment. We were talking about the work out there and let me turn it to you. In some cases, folks fell because now were individuals who, public accommodation was all they had in their head. And unless you instant integrate and desegregate and all of the restaurants open their doors, and you can go into and get your room, to me, that is finish. Folks who look long distance,. Those folks were in arkansas and i said no. This population needs to access voting and start running candidates. Some folks were stuck and could not get off that. Describe your experience across a representative week. Who do you see, what is it like, and how does it feel . In every community, almost every community, there is that women,and in most cases, and she said, young man, when you go into a for the first time, if there is a black arbor shop, go in there. I said ok. Typeyou ask for a specific of people. Somebody thatfor , ornterested in politics know some good people that could run for office, or they have a lot of influence. she said, the people in the barbershop know that stuff. To the city, i took that advice. I pulled up and there were four or five guys there. Myself. Troduced i said, i am part of a program and we are trying to encourage black folks to vote more. And better than that, we would like to see more black folks run for office. Thing, saying you need to talk to mrs. Clinton. She owns the funeral home. Her husband died but she made an even bigger funeral home. Talk to her. So i had a little volkswagen and i said how do i get there and they said follow me. They introduced me to her. Raring to go. She said, im glad to see you. This is long overdue. She was all excited. She set i told my sister and the two of us talk all the time. She said, how do you want to first ofand i said, all, i will probably stay two or three days. A come to my house. Which one do you want . And her sister came over and talked about this preacher. Is a very aggressive preacher but he is by himself. Went over there and i said, i need to have a meeting. Those women said, you just go there. I do not know who they called, but they had that night. That is when the guys name came up he was there. Everybody, andew all the working folks, follow them vote, we would win all stop that is how it got started. The seed was there. The next one, i made a point, i said, i followed your advice. I went to all of the places, i was looking. I got to the little lady over there come i cannot think of the store. Nymore, she had a i introduced myself what i was doing and im trying to urge , and she said, i ran two years ago but i had novos. She said i would love to work with you. Your car and we took off. Know, im getting kind of old now, but my son just finished college and i might but to him about running, she was able to rally those type of meetings. A few years later after i was gone, i learned there are a lot more elected folks started that and by the end, when i went back through there, we met attorney, whatan is his name . I chatted with him and he said good things have been going down. With, they had a health clinic. Clinton appointed him, i understand, as a federal judge. What is that guys name . Oh shoot. It will come to me. Come a lot of good things have gone on. East arkansas. Circle. In that i thought we had gotten past that. Accommodation. Some thatwe turn to , what was your mood, your sense of relative gains, challenges not met . How was how are you you know, i felt good because i have a personality of incredible tolerance. When i go out to do things and folks dont participate or we dont get it done, i dont get mad, ied, i dont get just say to myself you cant win them all. Always been that type of learned my i also personality has helped me a lot. I dont get mad with folks. I dont pick and choose. I can take it, you dog me, it doesnt bother me at all. It as a failure, sometimes i say i wish we could have done or could have gotten a bigger role of folks participating. But it doesnt bother me that it didnt. Im very realistic about things. I have never put my eyes when i look at doing things, i work at it hard and very diligent. But if 15 people step up and are ready to work at getting it done, some folks, just like in folks, you can get a lot done, but some folks think if you cant get 75 people to help you, its a failure. I say 75 people will be a problem for you, so lets get a small group that has high energy and is ready to go. That is where i have always worked. I think because i could recruit people and identify, folks took off and did a lot of things. Georgia i was in what was that town called . I went down to this little town out i went to this town and there was a little town where they had little andory that had left town so when i got there, i said well, i went and met with a schoolteacher. Shes a very prominent woman in the neighborhood. I said i would like to have a little meeting and she said i can get the people to come out. , there isall came out a big meeting. There is a big warehouse sitting there. Its a big warehouse that was shut down. Everybody in this building had these big thoughts of like storage highrise buildings, all kinds of wild stuff. I said can i make a comment on something i see with my eyes . I said if a plant comes here and ,ell get a chance to go to work i said i see so many babies, semi kids, i dont think nobody could go to work. And they started laughing and they said mr. Joe, you are right. Work, youve to got to have someone leave. You have five or six kids. One thing i would suggest is you all need to consider a nursery to keep kids. Be saturatedr will with little kids. Everybody had five kids, six kids. Said my brother thats her brothers warehouse. She said my brother got a big warehouse. Hustler. He is such a i said what kind of hustler. I said hes a bigtime gambler and he loves money. He aint got a do nothing. She says i would like to meet him. Meeting. E to the 55yearold guy, maybe 60. I said, sir, in order for this town to even think about going said if we could build a nursing home here for these kids to be taken care of, i think most of these women here could find work. Already talked to her, this a big military they were hiring lots of people. Thats your warehouse . He said yes. That big warehouse what are you going to do with it. We could turn this warehouse into one heck of a wouldy and these folks have a place to keep these kids and they could go to work. Jones, if youmr. Could get it renewed, it needs a lot of work on it, i would give it to the group. He says i will give it to the group. Thats what he said. Ladies, weve got work to do. Yall areand all of going on that tear and we are going to tear it down and we are going to put all that board in the street and call the city to come pick it up. I said are yall ready to do that . Woman, they showed up and it was so beautiful. Lumber company in this next town, this guy had taken some lumber somewhere and he came back, all of these women sir, youid come here, are the only man i see. Are you in charge and i said yes, sir. I told the women we want to tear down this place and we are going to turn it into a nursery so all of these women with all of these babies can go to work. Some big navy base, Something Like that. He said they were way short. We is just sweating blood. I said let me go talk to my boss. This guy went down there and came back, he said you know what . Ive got some good news. If they are going to do all that building, all that lumber out there, its it has been a little rained on but it is still good. Thetake it up there, man, women built that thing and the guy who owned it said man, are you jesus christ . You cant tell women to do all that work. I said they are doing it for themselves. About two blocks, three blocks in size. This one lady said let me tell you about that if we get federal money for this, the federal government will make you put square feet per child, you wont get a third of them kids. But you can stack them in like lack sardines. Working, you get a job, you get a group that can take care of these babies and all of yall that get a job, you get a few dollars for taking care of the kids. It just took off. Left, i would get little cards from folks and they say we would love to see you come back and visit. I have just always been a little gifted on that side. I believe folks can do it ready good themselves. The lastmove toward section of the interview. Some of the things that were happening and how they reverberated in arkansas and how you made your transition over. We talked earlier about the directorship passes formally into your hands. For all of the whites coming in 64, 60 five in arkansas, that would have about ,. Ght people for. For black, four white. The tensions are becoming a little more closely felt on the racial leadership in the organization. It was a pretty hot summer nationally, with the riots at all. The whole question with the integrationist model is being challenged. We talked about economic difficulties. How do you finally get to the Economic Justice issues . With all that is prelude, im interested in your perspective 64 65 time, how did that play out in arkansas and the circumstances that led to you moving away . , what i saw away and what i felt was the peoplees and the use of and a lot of the folks who have that energy early was beginning to drift toward going to work to make a living. Older, the group was young and high energy and educated and this whole movement was a fun thing. A lot of folks was not recognizing we are getting older, we are becoming family dwindling,urces are and that was a natural thing to make. Back lot of the white kids come down wanted that to be a lifetime situation. But what we were dealing with was not lifetime. Of the kids we had worked with and we saw do wonderful things and all of that, they, too had hit College Level and gone on. I saidd my wife this to bill hansen look, guys, this we have done a and we are going to ruin it if we keep stretching it and stretching it and we are not doing anything. Theres no means of income and that is when folks start peeling off because i think the black panthers and all of that, they and they wereent trying to rebuild some new since and get it going this has kind of ended. I think it went as far as its capabilities and we had to recognize that we got older and needed jobs to support families and we had seen black elected officials come in, and i thought that was very successful, but there were a lot of folks still, people who think we should be doing that, its not the same. It has changed, people change and there are conditions all fitnd, but i dont think it the type of activity we are doing. I think we did pretty good feeling folks rose, but i dont think we could be a lifetime instrument for that. You were in atlanta and busy traveling quite a bit. Spring, one last thing i want to ask or two things left behind. Greenwich feels compelled to make the statement challenging the abandonment of the integrationist model. He comes to arkansas. Interested and you were a thing,ys away, the other and little rock, bobby brown and black ink united, that bumped up against that and all. But iid not bump into it, heard about it, what was taking think when way i perceive that was that was going ande a very small faction it was going to be very satisfying to brown and satisfying to stokely, but id dont think they were focusing on anything that was going to be helpful to people. They were on their oneway trip g on it. Were egoin both of those guys, way back in the early days wanted to be the top gun, but they didnt have an audience and that is what that is and its nothing else. Ago,ember a long time stokely was trying to carve out a group because he wanted to be the next malcolm x. Thats all it was. He was not focused on the benefits of trying to make the situation better. He just wanted that star in his hat. I never was interested in that. I think you have to sort of try to make a difference the best to go out on their own on your own and carve out a little spot. To me, thats a waste of time and its not going anywhere. It gets you a lot of media and that kind of stuff. About that,e and but when i was with the there are folks who feel they deserve being paid a lot of money, no identification or what for, just to do it. Ast my assignment was sharecroppers was to go identify , florida,a, georgia south carolina, small farmers. Deal with the inside of that mechanism. Think there are some opportunities to sell their product and make some money. I work with National Chain stores and the Big Chain Stores ,nd i learned in that circle most of the stores was looking for, like some of those small fresher,closer, cheaper because of the distance and that worked fine. That was kind of easy. Themhat has some of blocked is they were talking about money the big farmers were making which is not always true and shipping it all over the country and you need a lot of volume. They were not looking over the got five acres of tomatoes that i can harvest four times and i can send it right here and they will buy it, which is an excellent marketing strategy. They were looking past that and thats the kind of stuff i work with. Them ended, but that was because the older population who was farming, children did not want to farm and headed to new york. Its time to close that project down. Some folks dont recognize that and you have to be straight with them. Or you will have nobody run the farm anymore. Dont sell your property. Please dont sell it because in five or 10 years, right here is wobbly going to be the home of condos. Youll make plenty of money selling. Thats the side i walked on trying to get them to make money. You mentioned earlier on, talking about yourself and how you went through this experience. Have a measured sense being a realist, did you ever have reason to think that in some way, progress is much slower and this is a basic economic question that maybe theres another way to do this,aybe with institutional racism that may be the integrationist model we had in mind that wasnt cry was not quite the right model . My thinking was i never did see it like a lot of guys did that the integration thing was the model to go with. Was a lot see though of the white kids who came in and played roles, i would look very closely some of them did bigry good contacts circle, wealthy, and what i zeroed in on, give us some ohio,ts in the northeast, where we can possibly do some because some of the folks in the movement saw when the whites came in, they thought they saw money and money to be brought and put in the pot. I always saw them as potential great contacts to make better outlets. Arkansas, i said look, weve got these kids, pretty smart, we had some kid from kids from boston, new tok, d. C. , why dont we go these kids that are smart and looking to college, do you in your circle have contact with schools we might can get scholarships . That is how i use them. I never had this dream to heaven and mylot of people did background helped me Stay Grounded. My parents did well in farming, this trillionave dollar farm 3 trillion falling out of the sky. That help me Stay Grounded and some of the Movement People did not have that kind of grounded background and a lot of that stuff was theory. We should be able to do this, and some kind of theory depending on what the government is doing, but the folks we were working with were not ready for that level of stuff. I think in terms of slow things, i saw slow development, i saw a lot of things that didnt happen. Like efforts to try and get more nurses, blacks in nursing, small hospitals in smaller towns, trying to recruit doctors to come in in those areas and spend time. That did not happen. I was hoping that kind of stuff would have made huge steps arkansasou take east and look at the folks in little rock, memphis, the big cities i looked at that, but it didnt fly. But it wasnt something that brought me down. Thoughts . Guess my final thought is my being involved was a wonderful thing. I saw a lot of growth in people. I saw a lot of growth in young folks who excelled and went on. See thatome people because they did well and moved on was a disappointment as opposed to staying where they were. Its just a geographical change and you cant blame people for that. Later real good years that i did pretty good putting people together and work on the market and end with the small farmers. I think i feel good about when i stayed in the rural area, still working on behalf of people and if you look at my resume, every job i have had put me in touch with working with a lot of people and thats been the joy of my life. Ive just left it. Probably could have been several other things. I wish the 50,000 black farmers we had identified in the east and the south and the far south could have been given some payment toward the government not allowing them to borrow a lotand all of that, but of those folks, when a decision , a made to recognize them lot of those folks was dead and gone. And that was who should have and now beneficiary their sons and daughters are in chicago, detroit and everywhere else. If there is compensation needs to be very carefully done. I would not be real excited about john doe in chicago now is 37 years old and doesnt even know who his granddaddy was that farmed 75 years ago. That compensates you did the hard work. But i have been very pleased with the direction i went in life. Much always been close to agriculture, small towns all my life, which is what i love doing. American history tv is on social media. Follow us at cspan history. Reel america is our weekly series that provide context for todays Public Affairs issues. Coming up in the next hour and a half we will show you for Police Training films. First off is mob and riot control from 1960 four. How to use baton, smoke and tear gas. After that, in orientation for Police Officers from 1965. A great and honorable duty. Since tear gas has been in the news lately, we will show you teargas in law enforcement. A