7 00 p. M. Eastern and 4 p. M. Pacific on American History tv. The korean war began 70 years ended june 25, 1950 and with an armistice agreement three years later in 1953. Next in oral history interview with joseph lewis grappo recorded in austin, texas in 2015 by the korean war legacy foundation. He talks about taking part at turn the tideat earlier in the war and recounts finding fighting Chinese Forces at chosin reservoir where he was shot in the leg and shoulder. The interview project was underwritten by south koreans ministry of patriots and veterans affairs. You were you born . Joseph east palatino, february 18 30 1933. Parents were immigrants. Where were they from . Joseph italy. How many siblings . Joseph 11. Are you the oldest or medical . Joseph youngest. Are 12 kids, but i am the youngest one. It says here that you were enlisted. What made you decide . Joseph my mother died when i was four and my father died and i was seven. I was raised by my brothers and sisters. They would take turns, so by the time i was 15 i was not too happy. Brothers served in the military, all caught all five of them. So, i always wouldve liked to join too. So, i falsified my baptismal certificate and went to work trying to enlist in the marine corps. They knew i was underaged and did not let me in. Army, and thethe recruiter accepted me. Campsame day i was off to breckenridge kentucky. Ivy same day. Joseph yes. Time, it wasnt a jump school, it was just 101st airborne. Ivy you remember what day or month . Joseph august 26. Ivy august 26 was the day you enlisted and went . What year . Joseph 1948. Ivy wow. You were in school . Joseph it was during summer vacation, i was a freshman in high school. Ivy you definitely falsified your information, didnt you . You enlisted and you went to camp. Could you tell me about that . Joseph i went through basic basicng, finished training and went home on leave. When my leave was up, i went to to processshington for overseas to japan. Andlisted for three years, arrived in japan sometime in december, the latter part of december. Ivy what year . Joseph 1950. I am sorry, 1948. And, sent to japan and was assigned to the first cavalry. Transferred to the Seventh Division. And then, i was stationed in japan. I was assigned to rifle company, a company, 32nd infantry, Seventh Division. And, we did not have any mortar companies, so they started one and they took soldiers from begans companies and so i in the mortar company, and that is where i spent the rest of my army life. Littlen you explain a bit about your job . Joseph i was a first gunner. Ivy what does that mean . Joseph i was the guy that put so shell down the barrel that it would shoot off. And, i had to sign in on it. Commands from the command center. That is what i did the whole time. Ivy did you ever were you stationed in japan all the time or did you have to go to karina . Joseph no. Toer on we were moving down the Seventh Division artillery. We were the only Infantry Company there. Wentfrom there is where we started our process to go to korea. Ivy what did you think about that, were you nervous . Had you heard of korea prior to the war . Joseph i had never heard of korea. I had no idea where it was. I remember hearing it on the radio in the barracks. Was. No idea where it to rted getting ready the process of going to korea, so we ended up in several camps where the first cavalry was, where i was stationed originally. There. Barracked we were the only ones in the whole cam because the first cavalry had already gone to korea. I ended up and then we boarded transports. We were going in for the invasion. Ivy where you nervous at all . Joseph yes. Extremely scared because i did not really know what i was going to be scared of. Proceeded with the invasion on september 17, 1950. Ivy invasion to japan or korea . Joseph korea. We landed behind the the marines at inchon, and the next day we moved up to the main line of defense. To make oureeded souel. And the army was signed to the assigned to the east side and the Rifle Companies, we took that area. And after that was over, fortunately, we had some wounded, but nobody was killed there, that i was aware of. But then we went by convoy to , and wen to pusan bivouacked there on the beast the beach in pusan waiting for the invasion. Mines, so wear were delayed. Landed, andhere and there was no resistance. Another city,o and we arrived. I remember someone got into the korean banks and they had tons of money flying all over the place. And i got a fistful of it. Were and North Koreans were selling us apples. Ivy North Koreans . Joseph yes. Thee start heading out to chosin reservoir. It was a japanese name for it. So, when we proceeded up to review of the marines on the east side of the reservoir. Hadnt run into any resistance. The chinese were supposed to not enter the roar enter the war in the north korean army was defeated, so we felt good about that. We were going to advance up to the yellow river, but we stopped my battalion, and was the first battalion, 32nd infantry. We went up the furthest north two rest of the battalions where there. The rest of them set up around the Seventh Division artillery. We went up ourselves further up north about two miles, two to three miles. You could not dig a foxhole because the ground was solid, and it was 30 below zero, so i crawled into my sleeping bag like everyone else did and tried to go to sleep. Tons of of a sudden china men attacked us and bullets were flying everywhere and we were shocked. We had to get out of the sleeping bag, there was no place to hide or protect yourself. Is a chineseened patrol came in to the command center and they came to the commander and said that they were challenging. I understand that they asked the guys there and said are you americans . They said, hell yeah, we are americans. Five minutes later the whole cp tent, and officers and some sergeants were in there, and they were all killed. That is when it started. Ivy had they been watching you guys and they knew that you guys were camping out there and stumbled across you . Joseph they were planned, they were attacking everybody that same time. Industry 17th infantry regiment has reached the yellow river. Ivy how many people were there . Joseph just our company. That was up that far. All of the rest of the companies down where the artillery was. Ivy how may people are in a company . Joseph 170, if i remember. Something like that. I do not remember exactly how many. Happened, when it first started, i heard this explosion and i looked up out of my sleeping bag and there was a theilless rifle sitting on side of the road that just exploded. They must somehow blown it up. We retreated the next day. Truck would not start, so we had to leave it had to proceed by walking back. We went back to the reservoir where we would set up with artillery. Ivy they attacked you guys in the middle of the night and they did not take any prisoners, they just let you all be . Joseph there were a lot of guys that got killed that night, and then when daylight came, they stopped. So, we retreated back. There were some Rifle Companies the firstbecause battalion, 31st infantry with at was there along 32nd infantry regiment. And our commander was lieutenant don fay. Regiment7th infantry regiment Battalion Commander who was over all of us, he was the senior officer. And, as he was trying to get across to the artillery, he was captured and killed by the chinese. Fire, we allot of had a gauntlet that we had to run through alongside the reservoir and crossed down. There was a creek that fed into the reservoir. , bullets were ricocheting off of the water and i thought for sure that we were going to get hit. But we did not. But we got back to the artillery, and you could just chineseets of dead where the artillery had fired direct at them. Guys were of those still in their sleeping bags, dead. They never even got out of their sleeping bags. So, then we went and set up our mortars in a defensive placement. It was deep, low the level of the ground. And weour mortars up, night, they that attacked us again, and there were two chinese divisions that attacked our battalions. And, of course a lot of guys got killed. Fortunately, the guy name was morgan. Guys name was he was part of our mortar. He got shot through the leg. I do not know how it happened, because we were down in the gun placement. Shot, and i took him to the firstaid station, which i do not remember. But, i located him after the the way after the war at Korean War Memorial education. Dedication. And he told me that i was the one who carried him to the firstaid station. He said i did not remember. And he said, you saved my life. I kind of remember turn putting the tourniquet around his arm and him getting shot, he but i do not remember taking him. And he said, yes, you took me. And that was nice to know. Ivy he remembered you. Joseph ill yes. Oh yes. Day we proceeded, the next we were ordered to retreat back to the green to the marines, which was about four or five. Iles that we had to travel for some reason, we started late in the afternoon, and it darks it gets dark at 5 00. So it was still daylight when we were trying to escape back to the marines. Pilots, fire planes were strafing ahead of us. One of them dropped a napalm bomb in front of our column and it killed some of the guys. I could feel the heat back from where i was at but some of the guys got killed by friendly fire. So, we proceeded. The bridge was knocked out. 20, maybe 10ly that the chinese had blown it. And, to get up to the other side, you had to go down a big embankment over a slushy, swamplike thing, and then we had to go back up the hill to get back on the road. Tracks,had some half twin 40 millimeter cannons, and on that front 50 50 caliber machine gun. They were able to pull the trucks that got stuck in the muck, and then they ran out of gas. Others andp on the on top of this hill, and there probably maybe 30 at us 30 of us at the top of the hill including our Battalion Commander. What the dutch what they had done, the chinese had made a roadblock around the curtain of that hill. Commander gotion us, and it was just like the movies, charge. , andarted down the hill there was a guy named lopez, and he turned around and went back up got them all together and said we are going to do this. We got down there where the roadblock was and i ran into one of the guys who was still alive from that. They sent three tanks, and the ambulance, and the chinese wiped them out. One of the tanks had turned over and was blocking the road, so finally, when they got all the guys they could get up on the road and back in trucks, now there was starting to be a lot of wounded. Ivy how may people survived the attack . Joseph the whole thing, by the time we went down after everybody that up there, we started down the road again, and then we were then a Little Bridge was out over the creek so we had to get on top of the Railroad Tracks, of the trucks on the Railroad Tracks where all of the wounded were. They were just in terrible pain, and you could not put any more wounded on the trucks. They had the headlight guards, and the hoods, and the trucks were just completely packed with the dead and the wounded. So, i was standing behind the first track, the first truck, and we stopped all of a sudden down the road and we heard somebody say help. Know, theye did not might have been chinese for all we know. Ivy it could have been a trap. Guys went down the road and it was the lt. Col. He had been wounded. How he got ahead of us, we do not know. E had already gotten wounded he a hand grenade had bounced off of a tree and he had gotten caught with shrapnel. He got put into that truck, and i was hanging onto the back of that, because our feet and hands were frozen. Ivy what time of years with what time of year of this was this . Joseph december. 1950. It was november, it all started in november. I was flown out december 1. It was the end of november. Startedthis driver coming off the track past the creek. He started going really slow wait for the rest of the trucks and the troops to follow. Fast, and heke off mustve gotten 100 yards ahead of everybody. Of course, they were waiting for us. And, we were going along nice and peaceful, and all of a sudden it was the fourth of july. They had ity bracketed inn, which meant they had fired mortars and had the right sights and everything. I did not find it out until after i was captured. I took off running back to the ant of the troops, and officer says something to me. I do not remember what it was. Line, formed a skirmish and i was the last guy on the right side. We proceeded forward and alas all of a sudden i got shot through the leg, and it went through the center of my leg between the tibia and the other bone they are in your leg and did not hit the bone. And so there was no room on the trucks to put me on. Behindf guys were left wounded because there were no room on the trucks. Ivy did they say they were going to come back for you guys . Joseph there was no way to come back. You were gone. Youve got to the point where there were so many dead and wounded on the trucks so there was no room for anybody. You just could not help anybody. To seean experience these guys begging for you to take them. Wounded too. Lking anyway, after i got shot in the leg, my platoon leader happened to be close guy close by, and a couple of guys from my platoon picked me up and carried me back to the trucks, but there was no room, so i was hanging on the side of the truck, and i knew the Truck Drivers name was buddy, it was written on the side of the truck. If somebodyut for new me on the truck, and this one guy did know me, i will not mention his name, that he was not wounded and i said are you wounded, and he said no, and i said let me on the truck. He kind of did not want to go. In the driver pulled out his 45 and pointed it at him and said get out of the truck or you would have a reason for it. And i took his place to get up in their. Up in there. So, i do not know what happened after that really. All i know is that i was sitting down in the truck with my back up against the side and i got shot through my shoulder here. Ivy it came through the truck and hit you . On those 2. 5 ton trucks, they have those wooden slats. And then i got hit through my shoulder and my neck, and i reached back and i could feel blood all over, so all the way back down to my shoulder. So, i was doing some heavy praying, i was born and raised a catholic. And, i was praying like you would not believe so, i made a livedith god that if i and survived this that i would go to mass and communion every day for six months. Year i said, and i said, oh no, god, i know i cannot do it for a year, but i could do it for six months. I said god, i am bullshitting you, i can do it for six months. The next thing i knew, the chinese were all over us. I laid down and put my helmet over my face. Hand grenade underneath my chest and i took my watch and wallet off and put it underneath, they would search me and find out that i was alive. But they didnt. And one guy had gotten shot right through the head and his bones were sticking out through his temple. I pulled him out over top of me so when the chinese came into the truck it appeared that everyone was dead. Ivy how may people were in the truck . To takei will just have a guess. Probably 20, 25 to 30. Ivy how many people were walking . Joseph i do not know how many trucks there were that were able to get over that hill. I do not know how many were behind me, and how may guys were walking, but there were plenty walking. Ivy you are in a truck and there was this war going on outside, did they start capturing people at this point . Joseph at that point, daylight came. ,hey came down, by that time everybody was either dead or wounded. The trucks was on fire, i do not know whether they set it on fire. I raised up enough to look through the slats in the truck, and i could see all of these guys, it looked like a campground, there were so many dead just laying on the ground. Hearhe chinese i could them speaking and talking. , finally i just sat up, and nobody came inside of the truck because they were all over the place. Young, theyeally looked like they were 15 years old. Up into the truck and i looked at me, and i showed them my wounds. And they got out, and they didnt shoot me to death. Ivy why do you think it is that they didnt . Joseph i think they were young kids, they werent really hardened yet. Ivy and that was common to see young kids . Necessarily, but i remember looking out through the , one ofd there was a gi the soldiers was stark naked, walking across frozen snow and ice. Whatked at him and said, my god, what did they do to them. I was hoping that the marines would come and rescue us. I looked out across the reservoir and i could see the marines. You could hardly see them. But they were there. I could see a big line like that. The chinese did not guard us. They guarded us from the hill. In korea, they had these hills that were maybe 20 feet high at the top, and they came down and then it was all flat to the reservoir. And so, they were guarding us from up there. See thatyou could they were maybe 50 feet in the air, you could see cartridges falling. So, they left. , i so i said, well geez think they will rescue us with helicopters or whatever. So, i waited and waited, and ofe comes another sorte fighter planes and they started strafing the hill, and it was just starting to get dark. It was not dark yet. That iade up my mind could not make it another day. I would freeze to death that night. So i crawled out of the truck, m1, and aed up an chinese rifle that was brandnew. It still had the cap bond, because chinese took american weapons. I do not know how it got there and how it was never fired. But it was not just an ordinary rifle, it was a deluxe, the stock was finished real nice. Lacquer and all. I picked it up and took it with me. Truck and out of the my best friend was laying on the ground next to me. And he called my name. I said who is this . And he said jerry. I looked out over the side and there he was lying on his back. I freaked out. I got some sleeping bags off of some dead guys. And there were some that were trying to escape with us. So they were helping the wounded. Really . Joseph yes. They were helping the wounded. We did not have water because everything was frozen. They were doing their best, and i hollered at one to come over, and he rolled jerry on top of one and covered him with the other. And those were the North Koreans. Ivy how many were helping . Joseph i could not tell exactly. A sites that kind of that you were surprised to say . Joseph it does not surprise you. It is just about surviving. Anyways, i got out of the truck and i went around to jerry, and he was dead. And i told him and i tried to believe that he was still alive and i said i would send somebody back for you. I was really upset over that, and i took off over top of the Railroad Tracks. If you didnt go over the Railroad Tracks you will they would not shoot you. If you went over the Railroad Tracks, they would open up on you. Came in, and that is when i took off. Ivy where was he from . He was from milwaukee joseph he was from walkie. Gerald miller. Milwaukee. Gerald miller. Ivy if you had to guess how many dead and wounded, how many would you guess you all were carrying . Joseph the only thing i can tell you is that one of our jones is aolonel retired colonel now. Executive officer, or something else, i do not remember. At one of the reunions we talked, and he told me when they got down to south korea he started up the battalion with seven guys, that was all. So everybody else was either dead or wounded. Off the marines. They did not want to walk into exitedp so they probably to the reservoir. Because the marines picked up a lot of the guys over the next two days. There, by the time i got it had already just started dark, and the lt. Col. Was a transportation officer with the fifth marines. He picked me up and carried me back to a truck. Mey put me in that and took back to where the marines were set up with their hospital tents. They put me out, let me down with all of the dead guys. Y did a ivy triage . Joseph yes, triage. Freezing, iold and was going into hypothermia, i was shaking so bad. So i start screaming as loud as i could, and finally some guys took me into the tent in the medical doctor was there, and they cut my clothes off and i wrapped myself around this heater that they had in the tent and could not stop shaking. On daylight, they took me out to a plane and flew me out to the hospital in japan. Theyi stayed there until sent me back to the states. I got a discharge. Ivy you said that you were captured. Joseph well i was captured for 12 hours. , you know, that was it. All the trucks were stopped. So, about 12 hours. Knew youonly ones that were alive or just the ones that happen to spot you in the truck . Everyone else thought you were dead . Joseph yes. Outside, you looked out, there were hundreds of guys just laying on the ground, dead. And, one of the trucks you could still see it burning. And then i could not see the rest of the trucks. But, anybody who did not run and escape were dead. Notofficially, i was classified as a pow because i was not in a camp or anything. Ivy that you were taken over. , ieph but hadnt i took off would have never survived the night. There was no way i would have survived, i would have frozen to death. Were youmany battles engaged in . Tooph the one that wasnt fierce was when we went into seoul. And that was not too fierce, and then the rifle company, some of the guys got killed and wounded. Was at theeally it reservoir when we were really when i really witnessed real war. You were so angry then at that now some of the soldiers over in iraq are murdering these prisoners. Thing. Will tell you one after going through what i went saidgh, if someone had kill a duck kill hundred of them, i would have done it. That is the state of mind, and that is why amex so against trying these guys, because they do not know what happens the day when they experience all of that. People get killed and blown apart, and their friends turns you into someone else you wasnt some else you werent before. Hospital, a friend of mine was there, he was wounded in seoul and he was cooking while he was still being treated for his long lungs. I and up going to tokyo and waiting for orders i ended up going to tokyo and waiting for orders to be sent back to korea, and they sent me back to the states. There are a lot of experiences, and i could tell you about them when we were surrounded there. Theres an old house there and they were set up at the command post. Wouldover and bounce up from the hill. Us, ihey first attacked dont even remember. I was speaking my head up i was peaking my head up and it looks like raindrops. And if you dare stuck your head up you were dead. It was a lot of guns. That was a scary thing. Got hit, it was the real stuff. Down, beingalking able to walk in the daytime. You are still mournful but you still did it. And they line up all the dead feet. N a row, maybe two i walked down that and seeing all those guys. One of those guys had half of his head blown off. Part of his head was gone. Thought oh my god theof the guys there was taste of decay and death. Ivy were you there with other american soldiers . Joseph we had training soldiers, they assigned one to each of us. Kid. Was young, i kid a it was great. He was a young kid on guard duty and this was before the North Koreans were ahead of we peaked our head but he let me know that they were there. It was a dumb thing for me to do. Ivy going through that experience, how did it make you feel, knowing that it was called the Police Action . Joseph that infuriated me, to this day. Home, my brother met him in san francisco, he was in the treasury at the time but he and they took me [indiscernible] and he drove out there and he talked and put me in the barracks with the Company Commander or an officer and my brother asked can you give him a pass so we could spend the weekend together . And he said sure. Crazy. Says i didnt realize at the time, it was many years i didnt know it. I thought i was normal. I did not realize it until years mess. But i was really a ivy can you speak about your asked did you speak about your extremes with your family . Joseph it didnt affect me like some guys. Soldierstake 10,000 thousand were in combat. The majority of guys dont see combat. It. S willing to talk about i didnt go around boasting , but my brothers and sisters all wanted to know and while i was at my brothers house gerald Millers Family came out to california and i end up moving to california. Out they lived in this big house, nice house, they have and the whole family was there. And they had been missing in action have been missing in action. I dont know if it was his motherinlaw or who it was brotherinlaw or who it was, he asked about him and i said hes dead. He said are you sure . And i said absolutely. Theres no way that hes alive. Believe me, hes gone. He said my family doesnt want to believe that. Im telling you, do what you gone. But jerry is they knew we were good friends. He . How old was 18, nicerobably. Ooking kid, athletic [indiscernible] i boxed and did baseball but he was really athletic. Cleancut cut guy guy. Not a rough guy. Young, i was adventurous. Much were you getting paid for combat . Joseph 90 a month. Ivy was it enough to take care of what you needed to take care of . Joseph it was never enough. Ivy especially for what you are doing. , my 16th was fortunate birthday we were at that first calvary camp. My friends were going to go to and i said its my birthday and im going to go up and buy the beer. Ivy i keep forgetting that you are only 15 or 16. Joseph i took my wallet with andand i went to the shower the guys were shooting dice. I one 1800 i won 1800. He said when you come up, youre too young to gamble. So i walk in and i act real sad. I said i lost all my money. And said thats tough. And they in my pocket freaked out. Ivy probably one of the more pleasant memories. Joseph and everybody drank. Someone even went up and got a scooter, a japanese scooter is called a rocket. It was like a hundred dollars. Home and ithe money was fortunate. Won a lot of money gambling. Was i had ai problem. But i did have a problem. Ivy what do you think his legacy carried on by the korean war veterans and the korean war . Beginning,be in the guys probably didnt have any feeling one way or the other other than what are we doing here . Sohave never heard of korea, they were fighting for their lives. I dont know if they realized what they were fighting for. I think they were trying to save each others life. We later on, it changed as got older and we understood what life was about and how the rest of the world was. At that time, you are just out of high school and you dont know whats going on in the world. Kids learn things today, they. Atch the news ander on i became this went back to korea after. He war ivy how was it to see korea developed after the war . Joseph i was there in the 50s it had not developed yet. I do have some pictures that i will give to chuck. Roebuck store and. They had the big sign painted and they sold everything and anything you wanted. , they wereat picture ready to get out and make money. Ivy in your opinion, why do you think the korean war is referred to as the forgotten war . It was just after world war ii, everyone was doing well, people were going to school. Recognized andre got married and there was nothing happening. I was a good time. Americas industrial growth was going crazy. Everyone had jobs. Little korean war and that korean action, that wasnt europe or japan. It was some country that people in america did not even know about and did not understand any than they were trying to stop the communists. They were living a really good life over there because of the sacrifices made to say the country. And American Kids should know that. They have programs like that in , a ivy i hope you get a chance to go back to korea and see the results. Joseph have you been . Ivy yes, in june, it was amazing. I would like to thank you so much for coming in and talking into me and talking to me today. It was great to meet you. I hope that your grandkids can join us at washington, d. C. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] that oral history interview was provided to cspan for the korean war legacy foundation. For more on their archives you can visit their website at koreanwarlegacy. Org. This is American History tv comics pouring our past every weekend. This is the 70th anniversary of the start of the korean war, june 25, 1950. American history tv is on cspan3 every weekend and all of our programs is on our archives. You can watch lectures and college classrooms, tours of historic sites, and see our schedule of upcoming programs. history. Span. Org about thetorians talk recent debate over Historical Monuments and discussing how decisions to remove or contextualize them could be decided. Here is a pretty a preview. Theres a Tipping Point here that we were not at even a year ago. Not in the summer of 2015 when much of this began after the charleston massacre. Back then it was about taking the Confederate Flag down and a few monuments were under duress. Now its everything confederate. Everything confederate. Every Tipping Point has excess. Ands, it has excesses everybody is moaning how could you take down a grant statue. He was bequeathed one slave and he freed that slave. He save the union. There are going to be excesses and we have to be able to stand one, oray toppling that topple this one. Im with you. As weve said before, you make choices every day. You are doing it all the time. The point is how takes place and the discussion that takes place about it. All three of us have talked not anhis, that theres inevitable slippery slope and thats a ridiculous argument. You have written prizewinning work about jefferson and the founders in general, this is brought up by the people who say that the icons will be smashed. What are the criteria that you can imagine using, thinking about the judgment . The one that i have always given distinguishing the confederates from the founders is that the founders created the country, the confederates tried to destroy the country. Thats a pretty good bright line rule. When you lose a war you dont usually get to continue glorifying yourself by putting up statues in Public Places mocking the people who defeated you. The confederates were vanquished. Theres no reason for them to be there. The confederacy was a branch. Hat went off to nowhere theres nothing that they contribute that you could not get from some other place and its not what they stood for, their values are not values that we stand for. And inferiority. They specifically repudiated jefferson in the declaration. The founders are different. They founded the country. Its hard for me to think of living in a place without telling the story or commemorating, not celebrating, when you think about a statue to me its not about this is a god and this is the greatest personal ever lived. Its recognizing that this person did something important. If you think the founding of the United States was a good idea, these people did that. And its important to see them in all of their complexity. Watch the full program this here ont 7 00 eastern american tv. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] next, descendents of president s ford, truman, mckinley, johnson, and Theodore Roosevelt share their stories. The White House Historical association hosted the conversation as part of a their conference attended by representatives from president ial sites around the country and descendents of president s from james monroe to gerald ford. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome fred ryan, chairman, White House HistoricalAssociation Board of directors and deborah rudder, president of a the john f. Kennedy center for the performing arts. [applause]