General james holmes, commander of air combat command, discussed the future of the u. S. Air force during a virtual conversation with the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. This is an hour. Good afternoon, everyone. Warm welcome to all of you. Im dave deptula, dean of the institute for Aerospace Studies and would like that thank air combat command general commander james holmes for joining us today. After so many years of service and in key positions throughout our air force, needs little introduction. Simply summarize by saying hes excelled in operational, staff and academic purchase suits at every level, and as a result, hes brought an unsurpassed degree of competence to his current job. As commander of air combat command hes responsible for organizing, training and equipping air force aerospace cyber and Intelligence Forces for Rapid Deployment and employment. With that mobile, id like to turn it observer ver to you to what are at the top of your priority lists these days especially when it comes to operational employment are Aerospace Assets in key regions around the globe. So im shaking the stick over to you. Thanks, dave. Thanks for the kind words and hello, everybody. Thanks for spending some time with the Mitchell Institute and thanks for giving me a chance to talk to you a little bit. Now, as dave pointed out, air combat command is primarily and organized training and equipment command. Our job primarily is present combatready forces through the air forces other service component. Whether those components are att, number of air forces or presented them through another com. As result pretty ready and focused a lot of the time. So at the top of my list right now has been our efforts to mitigate the impact of covid19 on our compaapabilities and peo and att airmen and families responded very, very well and able to maintain our capability and capacity through that. And very interested right now also, our act headquarters, we wear a page that says, people first, Mission Always kind of one of our core beliefs. So were very focused right now on the air force and air combat command staffers to dig into Racial Disparity in our force. And to address the things that are keeping our airmen from being able to live their best lives and contribute to our mission. Then were working with Headquarters Air force primarily with the Lieutenant General kelly, you know also been nominated and not confirmed but nominated by the president to take my place as att commander. In his role, we are work fing t fine tune and present a new air force and present a system and talk more about it in some of the questions. So those three things are at the top of our plate every day. Kind of the next thing as we work through this season of budgets where on the hill theyre marking on the 21 file, and osd building the 22 pom and looking at what i describe as kind of a funding and strategy gap where the air force finds itself in a place where were not big enough to meet the cocoms requirements spelled out by our National Security strategy, and then perhaps too big for the budgeting we have. So we struggle to have enough people, capability and enough time to be able to keep all of our force modernized, keep up with the stress and ready enough to go fight with pure adversaries. Then finally, when you look at what our job is trying to set priorities as we go forward, we know that theres talk about what will happen to the Defense Budgets as we go forward. Both the investments that weve made in stimulus through covid, and Election Year coming up. What will happen to budgets as we go forward . We prioritize our work and efforts trying to balance those things with the things the airs provides to join force nobody else does. Two primary things. One, control the air and space in the department of the air force and the electromagnetic spectrum so the joint force has preem freedom to operate and act across all capabilities and, two, to provide the lions share of the c2 making global and theater joint air power use possible. Those are the things on the top of our plate i think weve got questions allow me to expand on those. Thanks. Mobile, excellent overview. Lets dig a little deeper into some of these issues. When you and i were far younger, we had the privilege of flying in an air force far larger. General goldstein summarized ready well when he talks about the air force that went to desert storm versus the one on todays flight lines. Which is arguably answering a far higher demand signal across numerous concurrent fronts with less than half the forces. As commander spoo eer responsib meeting these demand, could you give us insights just how this challenge is affecting air combat command and thoughts on a way to deal with it . Well, you know, when you talk about a smaller force, with increasing demand, i agree thats true. It drive as collision for att forces between preparation for combat with pure adversaries, having the right capabilities, the right modernization and having the right readiness to be able to square off with a capable pure adversary, and then the president , competition deterrence around the world every day so we dont have to fight. Every day theres a collision between those two things. Training time to be competent in enough and providing the president with cocoms around the world to compete and deter in the National Security strategy spells out pure adversaries with security, rogue nations, iran, north korea, who are testing our boundaries now. And then extremist organizations in our continuing battle with isis, issel and other places and our efforts to reach a lasting solution to the problems in afghanistan. So you have that coalition between those two things. And then you have a collision between operating to do those things and modernization and readiness. So the goal and the way we try to work through that is to try to find predictable white space, we call it. White space on the calendar. Got a calendar what youll do next year, got things written in for your vacation and for work trips and all youre doing. The white space on there is when you rest and recuperate and prepare. You want predictable white space for all of our units, whether theyre tradition archiation units or cyber and isr analysts and the forces that are working every day. And to do that, then, you need time, but you also need the training resources. Whether thats in a live or a virtual, in a simulator, in a constructive environment using a commuter to generate things to bridge in between. Investment on emitters to simulate, advance integrated air defenses on air threats that are realistic compared to the threat and able to put a whole command system together whether in environment places like the National Test to Training Range out in nevada, or up in jay park in alaska or whether that Center Simulator environment or, again, whether that is, those two things that pull that together. We need the white space to train and the right Training System to train in and we think this news for presentation concept that were socializing with the joint staff will help us to do that. I say, new. Weve had an extraditionary force, af structure that debuted, dave and others put together and worked hard on. A couple of things that never brought forward kept us from exercising it. One of them is having a command and control Element Incorporated with it to be able to take them forward as a group. And employ them together. Then another one is having the kind of builtin white space to go with it. Were working on presenting a model taking deployable air force forces breaking into six bins on 36month schedule. So wed be able to both present forces for the rotational requirements, cocoms need and have High Readiness forces to present and Response Force and immediate Response Force that the secretary of defense and the president deems, while ensuring the white space to train in between those, because you train up for that Response Force or immediate Response Force mission you might have to go against a pure adversary. And off that period you have to train for specific rotational mission, which might be cast over afghanistan instead. And then all of that depends on the people and retention. How you keep people around to do that. We take this force presentation, force Generation Model a key to doing that. Providing predictability for our folks. Provides guaranteed time at home for white space, and thats certainly a part, that tempo is certainly a part of the problems people face in keeping them around but doesnt answer all of it, either. Also we work on things like limited number of boots that people make during a career, because that uncertainty and the drive of having to pick up and move, it drives pressure on families. Particularly on spouses. And employment opportunities, and Building Careers of their own, and on the Education Opportunities for their children. So all of the Service Chiefs and Service Secretaries have been working to egg work with the st to improve. Thanks. Thanks for that very comprehensive answer that clearly, its much more than just the concerns restricted to air and sounds like acc under your leadership has really wrapped your arms around that in moves into the future. So lets talk a little bit about resources in the future environment, and as youre well aware, the 2020s are really make or break for aircraft recapitalization. Systems are either going to be replaced or missions are going to have to sunset. The challenges the amfavorses wh the f15 represents tip of the iceberg in this regard. You alluded to it. Given the coronavirus funding, the Defense Budgets are expected to decline. Which makes an already difficult recapitalization effort even more challenging. So whats your take on this situation . Mobile, when you speak to leaders on capitol hill and beyond, how do you explain to them the need for the air force to remain committed to its key modernization goals . Thanks, dave, and, you know, i go back to where i started that were too small for the global requirement, but in some ways maybe too big for the budget we have. Go back look at the root cause of the problem, prior years to 1990, air force bought about 200 airplanes a year to replace old airplanes and able to do that in realtime. Then for the 20 years after that, we bought about 20 Fighter Aircraft a year if you along across that timeline. That drove us into an 18 force the society talked about. If were going to transition that 18 force into new ideas, were proud of the work that the air force war fighting Integration Center has done along with the war society mass comes to come up with a vision and new approach what it will take to counter adversaries in new ways. We watched china and russia spend the time since desert storm watching what we do and coming up with new approaches to be able to counter our strengths, take advantage of our weaknesses. Our folked tried to do the same with them. Work harder, not counter with them and transform into new approaches. The hard part for that is what you led into. Its finding the money to make the transformation wehile you ty to keep doing what youre doing and do it in a different way. If the key problem is were in a battle of longrange fights with pure adversaries trying to keep us as arms length and keep us distant, were trying to find and destroy mobile agile intelligent hard to find targets that are mobile antisatellite systems, mobile direct and energy systems, mobile longrange fires and mobile integrated air defenses and in many cases theyre shooting at fortune airfields, predictable and easy to find. That means we will rely on things like advanced Battle Management system as part of the joint control to help us close that kill chain, to be able to find those targets and be able to have a credible ability to take them out, and that means that we have to invest in new things. Whether thats networks and connectivity with data, you know, at the center of it . And may come back and talk about jcd2 and hms in a little bit. Whether centers, platforms and the weapons it will take to do that were stuck in this collision between capacity and modernization. Then as we look at rising costs maintaining capabilities in those 30yearold systems that we have, each one of them has a different problem that were working. We have miracle workers and air force Materiel Command dedicated their lives and theres never been an air force in the histories of the world that can get at much out of the 18 platforms as were able to do because of them, but if you look at the f22, the folk es and primary problem there is having enough engines to meet our requirements as weve been flying the f22 more than predicted. F15, talked about fuselage and canopy worn out extended through their service life and have to be replaced which means taking the airplane apart. A10, wings, able to replace the wings on the airplane to continue for a longer service life. For the f16, they have service life left on them, but neat a lot of modernization to be useful. Against current stress. And so its a lot of depo input to get that modernization, manage against requirements forum and for the f35, airplane is maturing. Happy with the aircraft we have at hill. Working through how to figure out sustaining that airplane for a the longterm and at a reasonable cost and the next platform, engine available a ability and depo time it takes to keep the aging airplanes flying. So thats a long story to get to that we cant afford not to continue to invest in that sustainment as well. So we have a collision between sustainment and modernization and between ops utilization and modernization, and the bottom line is that, you know, as you led me into here, i have a hard time figuring out how were going to do that, and if were required to hold on to everything that we have through that process, particularly if the budgets go down. So we appreciate the Work Congress is doing to recognize our requirements. They set forwards and manned daits and mdaas saying the air force has to have 2000 fighters and the equivalent of that across the board, and if you look at those numbers it comes really close to the 38 squadrons the air force should need. Problem is, how do we afford that air force at the budget level given . Not getting the money to afford that we have to make hard choices together with the congress and the department of defense over the next years. Yes, sir. And i think you know this. One of the things were trying to help you with here at Mitchell Institute. To make the decisionmakers on the other side of the Potomac River understand that you can do one of two things. You can either provide the resources that support the needs of the National Defense strategy, or change the expectations of the National Defense strategy. But, you know, its a its a real challenge, and thank you for laying that out. As clearly as you did. Well continue to plug away and attempting to raise awareness of the importance of modernizing our forces to be able to deal with what it is the leadership of the nation wants the air force to do. So lets move on a bit. If youd let me yeah . If youd let me, id add one more thing to that. Which is i kind of went through the traditional things you expect an att commander to speak about. Look at the kcompetition with china, russia, iran, north korea. The primary tool used in information warfare. Certainly a military component to that information warfare. Russia and china use military forces to drive points, drive influence, to drive achieving their goals without combat, but the primary tool is information warfare, and so as we move forward as a nation we have to look at the investment there. How much should be invested in the department of defense for that information, warfare. What should be invested in other places. Covid highlights new challenges to the National Security strategy to take into account. So even with competition for National Security dollars and with the stimulus driving that down, i think we can all sort of expect to hear people talk about with some justification our National Security dollars shouldnt all be spent in the department of defense either. There are a variety of information and pandemics and other things we have to work through how to spread these resources across. Thanks. Well, now, for what its worth, i applaud that perspective and interesting to know when you look at the four security pillars of the United States is based on. Diplomacy, information, the military and the economic element, the only one that does not have a cabinetlevel agency assigned to it is information. So i think your thoughts are spoton in that regard and the nation needs to move out in that respect. Now, one of the things changing the, the subject a bit but fundamental to our aerospace nation, if you will, is the whole issue of training. Training pilots. And general holmes, you just released a groundbreaking concept to revitalize how the air force should be training its pilots. Talk about your project reforge process and the problem youre seeking to solve and houd w do aim to go about doing that . Thanks, dave. Two years ago, i think, i traveled under invitation to israel, and spent time with the israeli air force, and i took five squadron commanders from air combat command along with me. One of the places we visited with israeli aeroforces, they have purchases an advance trainer in their case its the leonardo competitor in the events training market, and they had taken that airplane and constructed avionics so although the airplane doesnt have radar or radar warning receiver and advance targeting, in the airplane feels like it does. Generating constructive stress, they were able to train their crews extensively and rapidly against that stress in a much cheaper platform. Then we looked at work att led and upt next, and now morphing into upt 2. 0 and 2. 5 and 3. 0 and found by making curriculum and Study Materials available to students all the time, at their convenience, that people were able to progress faster. And that by training in a computerized environment that kept a record of everything the student did, they also were able to judge the proficiency and different skill sets and focus on what would help instead of kind of doing a one size fits all approach to every student. We think theres an opportunity to put those two things together and the air force feels the new advance trainers, t38 replacement to train pilots in a different way, and our shortage of pilots in the air force, and atc, shortage not just of pilots. A shortage of experience by the pilots. So our goal is to say, whats the fastest, most effective way to produce experience Fighter Pilots . And the way we would measure that would be, can we produce a pilot in training that can transition to one of our operational airplanes . Without having to do what we call a b course or a basic course or a course for a person thats never been a fighter crew member before. So we propose to leave airplanes while waiting on the t7 to arrive and do experiments along with attc to figure out whats the best use of this new t7 were going to buy to try to produce more pilots and to produce more experienced pilots sooner. And we think take advantage the capabilities of that new trainer along with new Training Systems atp previewed and premiered giving a great opportunity to meet the requirements of the shortage that we have, and the fastest best way, and then theres other benefits to come with it. If, for example, you got your ing wings in a seven, eight month program, and progressing to a fighter wing fly 12 to 18 months, advance trainer doing the whole range of airtoair and air Ground Missions and red arrogance local fighters and step across the street and do a local check out and stay and not have to make those moves that are driving our people out of the air force, then we think there are a lot of opportunities to win, to produce better pilots faster, and to increase retention by cutting down on the moves that puts pressures on families. So thanks for the question. I know. And just speaking on behalf of the many folk whose have been a part of the air force, and aware of the challenges, just really would like to applaud your efforts in moving our training regime into the future, and we all look forward to seeing progress in that regard. Now, you mentioned earlier the importance of joint command and control and its no surprise general goldstein has made the notion of the cornerstone of his chief of staff tenure. Air combat command a component whose access is required to make the vision. And the combat cloud i applaud this emphasis. When you discussed the vision to Key Stakeholders on capitol hill, how do you describe the stages of implementation . What are the core technological elements that need to be fielded, and how do you envision operating concepts that change this . Thanks, dave. Ive had a chance to talk on this in a couple of places and in longer forums, and there are videos out there, longer versions of this. What i highlight right now is, when you talk about your combat cloud or when, talking about abms as part of jbc2, the common denominator, data is at the center of that, making use of all information out there. Getting it to all the places where it needs to be and being able to make better, faster decisions, because of that. Thats certainly central to the idea to how you make all the information we already collect useful to all war fighters and the term is connect every krecer througher shooter. What youre connecting and aid lewing is flow of that data back and forth in between all of those places. Connectivity is the next element. Being able to connect all that together. Thinking of it as an internet of military things. The same ideas bringing connectivity of devices all over the country and all over the world being able to share Information Machine to machine without asking us. How can we bring that to our military tools . And then when you pool that together, theres still a need thinking what sengser e sensors platforms do you need . Every sensor to every shooter but what sensors and shooters do you knee to supponeed to suppor decisions, and the first Mission Always. Focus on the people involved in the effort and the people actually using it to provide these resources. So we are building a capability as nellis and shadow Operation Center to be able to take the tools and ideas and networks that are being built in abms and across the services, and other jdt2 efforts and be able to sit down with people. Certainly the idea is with modern connectivity you can do this command and control from everywhere, but you still have to do it from somewhere. Somebody has to do it some . We propose to bring the people there with the connectivity and the data to put them into a def sepp option to modernize the test process, test things try them soon as we code them and see what we need to correct on it. And then to move from there into an op generation. The air force has air operations center, the army has corps and division and brigade headquarters. 2345 navy that command and control for strikers, individual ships. The next step get that play ground going and move to an iteration in one of those existing facilities and see how we would do it differently and what the tools allow the people in those centers to be able to do differently. So weve made Good Progress with demonstrations to the kind of things we can do. Id advocate for the next thing to put people there to solve command and control problems with these new tools and see what, where it takes us. Very good. Just elaborating a little more on the concept. In many ways this generation, fighters with sensors, processing power, connectivity and ability to close the kill chain represent a key element. Same could be said for sensor shooter complexes epitomizes by what predators and reapers have done over the last decadeplus. What have the different technologies taught you about this vision . Ah, you know, i think id go back to the the connectivity. So, you know, f35 tremendous radar. Do radar maps, automatic target recognition. In many cases can determine a threat better than the pilot could with the naked eye, yet we didnt build it to transport that data all the way back. Its more designed to accept data from other platforms going forward. So sensors, platforms, weapons. A lot of the pieces are there. If we start by just connecting what we have now, together, its a really, its a great capability across the joint services if we just started by connecting all of our sensors to all the shooters to you a the command and control nodes we have now with data and Network Technology thats there. It would be the basis what were going to do in the future and lets just go ahead and get started and iterate it over time. Very good. Now, while we often focus the community tends to focus on the hardware required to actualize the gen c2. Your ethos to the combat command is people first, Mission Always. It highlights the fact ultimately it comes down to the people. Could you chat with us just a bit how you would describe the attributes youd like to see in an airman equipped to succeed in this world . Yeah, thanks, dave. Over the last three years weve been on a, a journey. I hate to overuse that word. On a journey in air combat command to realize what i call a Mission Command approach, command and control based on have be a clear simple commanders intent and then i get feedback from the people executing it. Both when you build it and then in execution. Our first real test to that capability we build was with hurricane mikes came through tyndall almost two years ago and we were able to provide tests across our command and commands that were helping us, and allow that Wing Commander to exercise all the authority we could give him, laid down there, and we gave him a Maintenance Task force to help repair and remove the airplanes that were still there. But we left it under his control under commanders intent and sent a Civil Engineering task force down pulled together from across the air force but left it under his control. The lessons we learned there put us in really good stead with covid in our approach to handling covid. Gave an intent. We talked about it back and forth in person with all of our commanders. Got their feedback on the intent, and then left them alone, because they had the best view of conditions on the ground in their base, and their workforce and their community and of the requirements they had to maintain readiness. I think the attributes were looking for in the system are people with the ability to mirror that. They need to be comfortable with having a lot of data. But also need to be comfortable acting and making decisions based on less than perfect information. They need to be comfortable with accepting authority and responsibility and moving out, making decisions, and then giving feedback, back to that headquarters and need to be comfortable with taking a commanders intent and interpreting that and turning it down to the lower echelons. To make this system work, if all we did was increase the connectivity still expect at any echelon to report back up, mother may i up to another multidomain Operation Center we could probably do it faster than we can do it now but not fast enough to win, in the environment were talking about fighting in. The idea, feedback from people down range to push data to the people that need it to be able to win that battle of longrange fires by being able to out target, out think, out tempo and adversary. The only way to do that is having people empowered out on the ends of that system to take action based on the available information that they have. So its a process to build that trust between echelons and to teach each other how to work that command and Feedback Mechanism back. Awesome. All great to hear. And we wish you all the best of luck as we we change the manner in which we bring folks up to be able to think like that as well as empower the forces that are at the leading edge of the fight. Related topic. Man, unmanned teaming something of increasing interest, thanks to programs like skyborg. Whats the imperative behind this technology and could you talk a little of your vision for how you expect that technology to evolve in the operational realm . Yes. The air force, the road were going down is based on the idea going back to the situation were in with chine in and russia. If they though they only have to target 10s even 100 ports and airfields we have to move resources into to get close enough to operate, that we simplified their problem. So what can we do to move away from our dependence on those ports and airfields . One of the ways, agile combat e deployme deployment, moving rapidly between not just operating out of four our five airfields but operating out of 100 air fooefi and complicating the target program and next, what can you done with the Asset Program to when you get to experiments in the air force Research Laboratory its designed to see, can we still provide relevant hightempo combat power with freedom from a runway . One way to do that, with a lower cost moi attributable platform. You have to be able to network that together, communicate like we talk about in the internet of military things with all of our resources. And theres work that has to be down decide like you always do, whats the right curve between cost and capability . What signatures does a vehicle have to have . What sensors what weapons . How much are you willingsensors how do you balance that. Theres also advantages to bowling project, can you extend the reach of a super hornet or f35 with a loyal unmanned wing man. Put sensors forward or weapons forward and its available to increws your capability forward by having more platforms and able to do more things. The question then is how do we get after it and learn about it. One of the ideas were intrigued with is to take these vehicles being develop and try them out as red air in our training environment. If we can take those systems and let them train against us and let us train against them, what can we learn and build in capable ility and turn and and as asset. So its a great chance, i think, for us to learn about whats possible, and to start training the ago rhythms for Autonomous Systems to operate. Its a path we want to try to walk down here over the next i dont knowing, three, five years or so. To see whats possible in that environment because we need adversaries to train against. We need to see whats possible. Thank you very much. I think the audience recognizes its not as simple as buying a bunch of uninhabited aircraft. Its a complex interaction between manned and unmanned. Holds a huge potential and its great to see the path that youve laid out in the context of training and some pretty unique ways, too. Also solving some of the red air challenges that the air force faces. The air force recently lost an f22. We talked about the challenges you face in terms of demand versus available resources. Do you see or lets put it this way, has the air force considered an option to bring up the early block f22s to a full level of Operational Capability . Given the air force isnt going to build anymore new ones, can we take those tf coded jets and bring them up to combat capable jets . I think we could and yes, we look at it every year when we go to balance budgets. One approach to it as you finish the 232 b maryland fifications the newer planes that just keep working through the old ones. But when you make that decision, youve got to balance the continuing modernization requirements for the block 30 and the newer airplanes that are out there for the 32b planes with the money it would take to do that and with the Future Systems through the program and perhaps other approaches. So its not just a trade off of finding the money to do that. Its where would the money come from and wheres the best place to spend your dollar. Then were also looking at ways to use those older airplanes smarter as we move the ftu to langley. One of the options were looking at is to fly those older airplanes in a red air role and put our students in the ftus straight into the newest planes so they dont learn on the old one then have to transition and with the two operational squadrons here and the red air requirements for them and the red air requirements for the ftu, can we kind of trade the airplanes among each other and make an effective use of the old airplanes while we save our limited modernization dollars for those new uer airplanes. Thank you. General holmes, we covered many topics, but what is it that were missing . Whats keeping you up at night, if anything . You gave me a good chance to talk about most of it. We walked through it and you know, by my retirement has been approved and were scheduling a change of command for the 28th of august here at langley, so as i look at the, my last couple of months in the air force, i think going back to where we started, how has the world changed over the last couple of years with covid and act as against our country that, people trying to interfere with our elections. People trying to shape our Public Discourse and pit us against each other as americans. And what is the right response as we go forward in a National Security strategy. We know that russia, first, has worked to develop capabilities to reach out and directly touch our homeland and if i talk to tj at north com, he believes that russia has built a deliberate capability to try to convince us to stay hands off, by being able to reach out and touch us in the United States. I guess looking at what are the challenges our country faces and whats the right use of our National Security dollars to address some as we go forward and do we need take a a look at the threats to our country and how were distributing those resources. Well, weve come to the end of this portion of our discussion and thank you very much, general holmes, for your superb insights. Id also like to personally thank you for your spectacular career of service and we here wish you all the best in your future endeavors. Thanks. As an alert to our listeners, our next event is on june 29th, when Mitchell Institute will host the u. S. Air forces in europe and also, the release of our newest study, long range strike, resetting the balance of stand off forces by colonel retired mark gunsinger can be found on our website. Were now going to open this session to questions from the audience. As a reminder to our listeners, use the raise hand function and when youre called upon, please share your name and affiliation. So lets kick off the round table with john. John with air force magazine. Id like you to elaborate on some of the things you were saying about the f22. It sounded like that would make a good case for bringing more of those older f22s up to combat status. Was that an unintended consequence . Did i hear you correct tli that youre going to employ some f22s as red air and could you talk more about the engine situation . Is it possible to remanufacture those or maybe use the core from the f135. Ill try to go backwards there a bit. On the engine side, the problem we had is that we started using in ways that werent forecast. Froms and as our ctopranked sustainment guys worked through, we were overflying what we were spending there. In that time sense, weve worked well with Pratt Whitney and their suppliers and were in good shape on those engines. Part of what we were trying to do with three four is to see what we could do to make more capacity without spending more money. So if we can reduce the requirement for our Training Units to train new students, we can take some of that training coded iron and turn it into combat coding iron. We already paid for it so could we provide increased capacity that way. And if you look at the older block f22s, i mean theyre already combat capable even without bringing them up to the higher standard. Id certainly pick one of those over our legacy airplanes if i had to go fight and so one option would be to be able to turn them into a combat coded squadron over the next several years if we worked through and our able to make Something Like the reforge option work. And were able to repurpose some of our ftu capacity and to combat capability. And the red air . The basic idea is the if you have three squadrons and their going to be flying red air every day, we use the t38, but typically augment them with some twos on the red side, too, we use them as red air every day already. So the question comes down to, which ones would be the best ones to use in red air so if i could have my blue air guys training all the time in the most modern, most capable version of it and then let the guys that are stepping in to red air. Its one of the things were going to try. Thank you for being here today. Not just the c2, but also hour you are able to better employ your forces because you now have better c2 capabilities. Trace back to anything i specifically said. I mean, i think that we have worked hard to create that Mission Command of empowering people at the lower level echelons in our yununits to tak control. The responsibility weve given them, i think that has been very effective in dealing with the crisis at the base then as we work to field new capabilities, new technical capabilities on the Community Control side, we want to make sure we build them to empower and enable that. And make sure that we dont inadd vinad v inadd ver tently build systems that are more centralized. Its about sharing the data we had. Theres too much data to push everything to everybody. Its working through who needs what and give it to them. Having the connectivity that enables that data to move around and then deciding which platforms are required to make things. Can i just follow up quickly . How are you talking to congress about this . I noticed that the senate, the Senate Committee essentially tried to put a whole bunch of platforms back in and didnt seem to be so convinced. Wondered how youre making that argument to your friends in the congress. We appreciate the professional staffers up there and worked hard to understand the commands. There are a lot of requirements out there to use everything we had and a little bit more. I think the argument well make as we go forward is refining down. So what are the key threats to the United States and as budgets may decrease in the coming years because of service on the debt and the stimulus funding and all the things people are talking about, then how might we prioritize that and well make the case that we need to put some priority on modernization and readiness and with trading between those and to trade capaci capacity. All right. Thank you. How about retired Lieutenant General, bill bender. Bill, i show youre unmeet utedt we cant hear anything. Nothing. Okay. Valerie. Can you guys hear me . I wanted to ask about the Aircraft Leasing for the reforge concept. I know that a couple of months ago, you put out a sole source to the t50 then there was some talk about the m346 for that as well. So can you clarify whether the path forward involves just the t50 or potentially you know, both or either of these aircrafts and could you provide any more specificity fabout how many plane, hour, however youre quantifying the size of that, why not expedite t7 production instead. Was it just cost and schedule prohibited to go that route or was there Something Else . Yeah, the t7 is a great airplane and we cant wait to get our hands on it. But its several years away. Theyre working on a development, sorry, to operational development. Theyre pretty darn close. Still takes time to turn that into an operational platform. What were trying to do is use the time while were waiting to get that operational platform to work with joe webb and wills and their teams and atc and try to figure out the best ways to use the plane as we go forward. In our initial research, there was some thought there might be only one plane that was going to be bid against it, but as we did more market research, we found there were multiple people that were going to bit and with a couple of different airplanes and certainly, competition is in our interest so we want to have that competition to see who could come in at an affordable cost. Frankly, our budgets are tied and we have to have the option that if nobody comes in, we may try to do this in a different way. Were trying to get to a bid process and to see if somebody cease going to come in with a cost that we can afford. Im not going to talk about the specific number of airplane, but its not money. Its a limited leez. To see how long it takes us to train an ip force to do it and then how long does it take to build us an experienced suh 11f, be qualified as a flight lead in the plane then go into a fourth of fifth gen fighter and do the short generation course instead of the long one. Those are the metrics that we use and we think thats a good use of the time between now and when the t7 starts to roll off the production line. Could i just ask when are you guys going to release the rp for that and when will you make your selection . You know, im not the contracting agency, but what were trying to do is get airplanes available for us to use by the summer of 21. Then were working through to process to try to deliver that. How about marcus. General, i wanted to ask you with all the commercial pilots out of work right now and covid19 and the airplanes predicting years before they get back to where they were at the beginning of 2020, how does that impact your Pilot Shortage and just the way you think about needing pilots in the coming years . We have some that are able to leave the air force and reaching that decision. I think some of those will decide to stick around with us for a while longer. Some will decide to commit and some will make a year to year decision and wait and see what happen miss the environment. It gives us a a chance to try and convince them to stick with us, which is an opportunity for us. And the larger areas, theyre working through some other options on some alternative paths to wings and you can put your specific questions to them, but its questions like hey, can we bring a pilot thats already a commercial experienced pilot and can we put them through a Short Program in the air force to make them an air force pilot, to make them a professional military aifuater on top of their already developed aviation skills and see if that allows us to take advantage of some of the folks that are there, then theyre looking at a way to go out into civilian Training Programs and work to design programs where we could take people out of some of those university or School Based Programs and bring them straight into the air force. Their education and Training Command has to lead on those initiatives and theyre working through this. Real quick as fa follow, guy who are leaving, is it onesies twosies that are deciding to leave or is it substantial numbers . In the year group, every year theres the group that went through Pilot Training ten years ago, come up on the decision to leave and were, we have some fairly small year groups coming up where we reduced Pilot Training, but approximately, its about 900 people a year that come up against that decision for the first time. And so, you know, i think all 900 of those people, its different every year. Might be 1,000, might be 800 in some of those years. We hope all 900 will reevaluate the decision. Theres also a market out there for our folks that left the air force and affiliated with the Air National Guard or the air force reserve and were flying with the Air National Guard in part time roll roles. There are also folks out there that are interested in getting more manned days or coming back on the full time status and the Garden Reserve are working with them, too. Okay, last question. Courtney alban. Thanks for taking the time. With inside defense. I just wanted to go back real quick and this might have been addressed a little bit earlier, but the discussion around the f22 and possibly repurposing some of the ftu capacity for combat capability. Can you just get into maybe a little bit of the possible details around how many aircraft you might be looking at . If youre doing, or what level of cost analysis youre doing right now and i know this is something that acc has looked into in the past and are these yeah, i guess yeah, whats on the table right now . What are the details youre weighing and what level of analysis . So, i would tell you that right now, this is primarily a think piece for air combat command and its based on can we make that reforge Initiative Work and its also based on work were doing as we look at our flying Training Units in general. If you take those two key capabilities from upt next and apply them to ftu next, which is making the curriculum and materials available to students 24 hours day to progress at their own pace, then have it continuously monitor students so we know when they can advance from one step to the next or when they need a little bit more training at that step, it gives us the opportunity to spend how much training they spend in the flying units which means we dont need as many aircraft and sims dedicated to that, which means you can repurpose some of those to additional combat capability without spending extra money. When we moved the 95th squadron and took their aircraft and pilots and maintainers and split them up, we went to bigger f22 squadron, which produced efficiencies of scale, which helped us train those better and faster, but we went from six operational squadrons of about 21 airplanes, 18 to 21 airplanes to five squadrons of 24 airplanes. People know for scale, its easier to train your crews in a 24 than it is in an 18 or 21 because you can fly more front lines in the morning. What were looking at is that if were able to repurpose some of the flying Training Unit capacity then would that allows to create f35 and even if theyre the older f35s, we can do the work on the l load to give them the same signature as the newer planes. They may not have the same aif onices and guts, but its still a very capable airplane that would give us additional capacity and capability without spending extra money. So were looking at those ideas. They to use the things we might learn to see if we can ma make shift airplanes into combat coded planes. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, weve come to the end of this aeroa space nation event. I have to tell you, it was a real special honor to host general holmes and again, we wish you all the best and a gigantic thank you for all youve done for our air force and will continue to do in the future. So from all of us at Mitchell Institute and afa, have a Great Aerospace power kind of day. Thanks, dave, and thanks for all the times you guys have made these discussions possible. I probably dodged a bullet by not getting a smart question from bill bender. Couldnt get his mike to work. Well see you later. Bye. Tonight on American History tv, our series, landmark cases. Produced in cooperation with the National Constitution center, we explore the issues, people and places involved in some of the most Significant Supreme Court cases in our nations history. At 8 00 eastern, we begin with youngstown sheet and tube Company Versus sawyer holding that the president did not have authority to seize private steel mill, even during wartime. Then at 9 30 eastern, brown versus board of education at tepee kai because segregated schools could never be equal. Watch landmark cases tonight on on cspan3 and anytime at cspan. Org. American history tv, exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. Coming up saturday at 6 00 p. M. Eastern on the civil war, historian harold holtser and valerie peally host a series of talks about art facts featured in that you are joint publication, the civil war in 50 objects, all related to the july 1863 draft riots in new york city. On sunday at 6 00 p. M. On american artifacts, well tour ft. Monroe casement museum, which sits at the mountain of Chesapeake Bay near hampton, virginia. Hear about how it served as a beacon of freedom for enslaved people and how it held Jefferson Davis as prisoner for two years after the war. At 7 00 p. M. , a look at fdr, true m truman and the atomic bomb. With president trumans grandson, fdr president ial library and Museum Director and historian edward langel. And at 8 00 p. M. , reagans 1983 inter interview with readers die jest and his 1988 with the bbc. Both were conducted from the oval office with president reagan discussing a variety of issues, including his hollywood days, the bombing that killed u. S. Marines in lebanon and the assassination attempt that left him seriously wounded. Exploring the american story. Watch American History tv this weekend on cspan3. Social justice add vvocate s and scholars look at Police Reform before a House Oversight question briefing. Other