Teachers. I think he taught languages and music, and i dont know what my grandmother taught. But they moved from virginia to philadelphia, and that started the family split the family. Because my grandparents couldnt get a job. They said they didnt hire black teachers in philly. They had black children going to integrated schools but no black teachers. So, my grandmother took in washing, and my grandfather refused to do that type work. And the family actually split. They were together physically but not together. The older kids went to college in the family, and they were teachers, the two oldest ones. The youngest kid was sent to school by the middle children, who did not go to college. They had to work to help pay. So, that again, here we go about the color line thing, yeah. I was born in d. C. My mother was born in virginia. My dad was born in maryland. And when i was three oh, my parents divorced when i was a baby, and my dad took the boy, and my mother took the girl and remarried, moved to San Francisco. So, from the age of three on, i grew up in San Francisco. Then, she remarried again and moved to san diego, and i ended up at Virginia Union, yeah, which one of my greatgreatgrandparents was on the board at virginia seminary. And it was great to know that my greatgreatgrandparent had helped to start the school. Right. Gloria yeah. Right. So, if we could talk a little bit more about your childhood, growing up on the west coast before you went to experience virginia, and what were the sort of racial dynamics of life in both southern and also Northern California . Gloria okay. Growing up in San Francisco, i lived in what is now called the west end. It was called fillmore back in those days. Its where you know, and i try to think, was it full of black people . I think, as a child, you probably dont even know. And i guess thats where the black people lived. Then, we moved to the presidio, and i went to st. Dominics on pine and steiner. If you know where that is. It was all white. I was the only black child. And every day, i used to pray, i hope the nun doesnt slap me this morning. She would walk down, as we were praying outside in the morning, and slap me. And i would pray to god, god, ive done something wrong. Please help me. You know, i didnt know what i had done wrong. Right. Gloria never did. And i used to get fs. All my papers were fs. And i was in the second grade or third grade. And my mother said, you need to bring your papers home, and i started crying. She said, whats wrong . I said, mama, im dumb. I get all fs. She said, thats okay. Bring them home anyway. She collected that many papers, about an inch, and marched me up to the school. And she says, why are these marked wrong . Theres nothing wrong on most of i didnt know i was bright. David mmhmm. Gloria and the nun started crying. And mama said, go outside and play. And i said, mama, im not allowed to play. I have to go to church during recess and lunch. David while the other kids were out playing . Gloria yeah. And my mother says, i think you better go outside. I dont know what she said to the nun, but after that, the smartest girl and i in class were vying for grades. And the nun stopped slapping me. I didnt tell my mother she slapped me. David [inaudible] gloria yeah. David yeah. Gloria so, that was my experience there. I went to a Public School first called presidio. And a little boy said, a little white boy, a little boy said that he couldnt hold my hand because his mother said he couldnt hold the hand of niggers. So, i went home and asked my mother was i a nigger, because i didnt know. You know . I knew it was something bad david right. Gloria because he said he couldnt hold my hand. David and that was probably the first time you had heard that term. Gloria yeah. Yeah. That was my experience there. I had heard of other experiences. I remember we owned a mom and pops grocery store, which is typical in San Francisco. You know, they have safeway, but generally you have little stores. And a man came in. And my parents never talked in front of me, but i heard them whispering that hes a teacher, but he can only substitute because he has a dishonorable discharge, because during world war ii he jumped off a ship, refusing to fight, because he said why should he fight for america, freeing other countries, when hes not free here. I remember them saying that. David hmm. Gloria yeah. And then, i remember my mother trying to get a job. And they told her, you join the union first and you can get the job. And the union says, get the job first, and, you know, viceversa. This went on, and i remember my mother crying, but not in front of us. But i do remember. So, little things, subtle things, you know. David right. Gloria you know, santa monica had a big rope across their beach. David yeah. Gloria yeah. Unofficially. David right. Gloria but its there. David right. Gloria yeah. Teaching jobs. David mmhmm. Gloria only teach in the black area. You know, i mean, it was there. Its still there. David umhmm. So, when had your parents at all prepared you for what it would be like, [laughs] as you got ready to go across the country . Gloria heck, no. Nobody could prepare you. [laughter] do you know the first thing i did when i got in town . I sat down at the soda fountain. I said, gee, i want a banana split. Ill never forget this. One strawberry, one vanilla, and if you dont have black walnut, please put another strawberry, no chocolate, and strawberry syrup on top, and whipped cream, and thats id always get that. The lady went away to make it. And she came back and she says, oh, we cant serve you. And i said, oh, are you out . [laughs] she says, no. And i said, oh. I remember saying, oh. Oh. I said, oh. Three times. It shocked me. You know, i couldnt get a banana split because im black, sitting at the counter. David right. Gloria i wasnt thinking. I knew you couldnt, but i wasnt thinking. I just sat down. David umhmm. Gloria yeah. David had you had experiences like that in california . Gloria they are overt, not covert. David umhmm. Gloria you can feel them. David hmm. Gloria you know. David but there it was just gloria well, i have been asked when i went to high school, my cousin was filipino. And she says, claudette, i want you my middle name is claudette. David umhmm. Gloria claudette, i want you to come with me to the filipino picnic. I said, no. Im not filipino. I said, you are. She says, come with me. So, i went and i took my date. And when we got to the place outside of San Francisco, the guy said on the gate, i have to let you in. Are you sure you want to come . So, ive had that type thing. David umhmm. Gloria or places in you people can come in. Do you think youre going to be happy . David hmm. Interesting. Gloria yeah. David yeah, kind of coded or presented in a different way. Gloria right, right. David may i ask why you decided to go to a traditionally black college . Gloria yeah. My mother thought it would be good for me. Yeah. But, you know, i think a black i think i should have gone to howard. I mean, dont get me wrong. Virginia union was great, but i should have been in a city. [laughter] you know . David yeah, yeah. Gloria because it was too much learning at one time. David mmhmm. Gloria being in the south and the mentality and david so, what was that like . I know you talked about the ice cream parlor. But what was the indoctrination to life there . Gloria well, i didnt like anybody, the black people and the white people. First of all, i was young, and i thought i knew everything, and i didnt. I didnt know anything. David and this is what year that you got there . Gloria in the fifties, 1959, around then. David okay, yeah. Gloria but, you know, as a young person, youre very ignorant, but you dont know it. [laughs] and i thought i knew everything. And when i went there, i couldnt understand why the white people treated the blacks the way they were treated, and why the blacks allowed it. I even got angry with some of the black people for not sitting in, the kids. And i didnt understand. I do now. If they had sat in, they wouldnt have had dinner on the table that night because their parents would have been fired. I had no idea, you know. David mmhmm. So, what was Virginia Union like, in terms of a sort of a consciousness, a black consciousness, among the students . Or, even, were there teachers that were talking about these issues . Gloria yeah. You know, i believe people it was a way of life, and they knew how to live within the system. Im not saying it was comfortable for them, but i think they had a black society, which was a way of living, you know. David mmhmm. Gloria i remember dr. Johnson, who was my favorite instructor there, bob johnson. He had two phds, i think. I think he got his first when he was eighteen, im not sure, very bright man. He used to play in a quartet. I dont know what he played, violin, or something. He said, one night he was driving home he used to tell jokes in class and he had this white woman in the car. Then, he thought, oh, my god. Im going to be killed. You know, he was always saying things like that. David mmhmm. Gloria but i dont know. I dont remember. Im so daggone old, i dont remember. [laughter] david so, im going to be asking you questions about the sitins that you got involved in, obviously, but i was sort of curious about what prefigured those, what kind of conversations you may have been having amongst yourselves as students. Gloria yeah. We were having meetings. And, as you know, charles and whats his name . Tony pinkett, i think, were the leaders. And we were always having meetings about that. David thats charles sherrod, is it . Gloria yeah, mmhmm. David and can you remember what some of those meetings were like . Gloria no, i cant. Im telling you, being old is a sonofagun. [laughter] david right. But gloria i thought the world was going to change, though. I was so naive. Gosh. I remember the Police Person was very nice to me. I remember when we were arrested, he held my hand and helped me up into the paddy wagon. And i thought that was so nice. And my aunt called me. She says, i see you on the news. Youre being helped into the paddy wagon. David you mentioned that there were some students who didnt participate that you were angry at. Gloria i was angry with them because i felt they lived in virginia. They should. But then, after meeting i met one girl at the reunion. I met a lady at the fiftiethyear reunion. Well, she was in the sitins, so evidently i knew her, but i didnt. They needed pictures. I didnt remember anyone. They needed pictures of when they were young. David right. Gloria because i havent seen these people in fifty years. And we were sitting at the table, and tears were coming down her eyes. I felt like crying, too, but i dont cry in front of people. And she said that her father was fired, they had to move out of state, she had to drop out of school. I dont know if she ever finished college. And i thought, you know, thats how naive i was. She was one of the virginia people. A few people from virginia were in the sitins. Well, quite a few, im sure. But i wanted all of them to be in there. But i didnt live in virginia. [laughs] my parents were in california, you know. David mmhmm. You talked about thinking you were going to change the world. What did you want to change . Gloria well, i thought, i know that were not all going to be, you know, hunkydory. But i thought, well, its going to be integration. You know, its not going to the first thing i did, i remember, when we got arrested, we went to a courthouse i mean, im sorry, went to jail. And they put us in this cell, all of us, and it was smelly. And i thought, doggone it, not even a clean cell can you go in. And then, in the court, the court was segregated. I felt like, am i in hell . What has happened . I mean, even the courts are segregated . And then, i remember a black man came in, and he was a drunkard, and you could smell him. And i thought, why do the dredges have to come in . You know, im thinking, its going downhill fast. And i thought, am i losing my mind . You know, horrible. David yeah, yeah. Gloria but i just thought, okay, now that weve sat in, we have these attorneys. And theyre going to go to court, and everything is going to be right, and its not going to be any longer. But you can change laws, but you cant change people. That comes about through your doing individually. David mmhmm. And thats what kind of process is that do you think . Gloria what do you think . [laughter] you know, i think well, the young kids today, many of them didnt grow up during that era, thank god. And many of them, if you get angry with anyone, its angry not because of a persons color, its for some other reason. And i think thats great. Many of the kids are that way today. David mmhmm. Gloria yeah. I mean, you still have youre going to always have an upper dog and a lower dog, you know. John how long were you in college before the sit in started . Gloria i dont remember. Youre asking me difficult questions. [laughs] david [laughs] john this is just the preexam. Gloria im sorry. Really, i dont remember. Yeah. In fact, i was surprised that it was so important. David hmm. Gloria yeah. David well, this would have been so, the sitin at Virginia Union was or with Virginia Union students was about, i believe, about three weeks after the one in greensboro, north carolina, on february first. Gloria okay. David and so, it would have been one of the early ones, but part of the wave of sitins. Do you know if you were aware of where, you know gloria other sitins . Yeah. David other sitins . Gloria yeah, yeah. David or why did this come up as a strategy for you all . Gloria yeah. I dont honest to pete, i really dont remember. David but you were aware of there being others . Gloria oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. David what about the notion of nonviolence and how you were going to comport yourselves in what could potentially be dangerous situations . Gloria yeah, i was going to be a nonviolent person. Im not a violent person anyway, just my mouth, unfortunately. [laughs] i thought, its not fair to have people hit you, and you cant really protect yourself. Its really not fair. I think had i been a man, i probably would have been angry and retaliated. I dont know that, but maybe. David mmhmm. Gloria yeah. David and was there were there . Gloria no, no. No, no. David did you run into trouble at the sitins . Gloria the dogs and things, but it was fine. When i say it was fine, our sitins were calm compared to some other sitins in other cities and states. John well, what actually happened . Gloria oh, we went downtown several days, and we went to Thalhimers Department store and we sat down well, i didnt sit down. I was standing, but being so tall, they pointed me out, really and truly, you know, because i stand out, and i had on high heel shoes, too, so that made me over six feet tall. And they just wouldnt serve us. I mean, it was relatively calm, compared to what ive seen on the news and talked with other people. David mmhmm. How many students were involved . Gloria thirtyfour. David and you went were you arrested right away, or did it take a little longer . Gloria we walked. The first time we werent. The second time we were. We walked from school to downtown. It was kind of a i hate to say this, but a jovial mood, you know, a lot of kids walking together, and i guess were all going to change the world, you know. David mmhmm. Gloria i dont know how they felt, but thats the attitude that i had and the feeling that i had. David right, right. Were there songs being sung or anything like that . Gloria yeah, yeah. And dont ask me the names of them, okay . [laughs] david yeah. Gloria not only that, i had to learn black culture. Not that i you know, i had to learn the black songs. Growing up a catholic which im no longer growing up a catholic, you dont know those songs. I had never heard the black National Anthem before in my life. A lot of things i had to learn. I remember i went to Adam Clayton Powell was a big man, and he and my uncle worked together, too. And he came to town to talk. And i went to one of his meetings, civil rights meetings. And in the church, the people clapped. [claps twice] and they banged their feet like this, and it scared me, because i had well, i dont want this on the thing. John [inaudible] gloria okay. I had never been in a whole group of black people. And can you imagine, im black and im scared . I mean, that doesnt make good sense. You know . David but you had never experienced this before. Gloria no, no. David yeah. So, you said earlier that when you first got to virginia, and there was this sort of not liking the black people, not liking the white people. Gloria yeah. David did this change for you as you were there longer . Gloria yeah, i i got a better understanding of what was happening. You know . But the black people had to live there. And the white people were only going along with the status quo. And i yeah, i knew i was getting the hell out of there. David as soon as you could, or . Gloria yeah, as soon as i could. [laughs] david [laughs] gloria yeah. David and why was that . Gloria because i didnt like virginia. And i shouldnt say that on camera, because virginia has many fine qualities. I have to put that point in there. I was too immature to really appreciate what was happening. David mmhmm. Gloria i was too immature. Yeah. David did you ever experience other parts of the south, or the deep south . Gloria no. No, that was enough. David that was enough . Gloria yeah. David yeah. [laughter] were jumping around a little bit, but i want to follow this. When you finished at virginia you graduated . Gloria mmhmm. David and then, where did you go from there . You said you wanted gloria you mean schoolwise or citywise . David im just following up on you saying you wanted to get the hell out. I was curious if you went gloria i went to d. C. My dad lived in d. C. David yeah. Gloria and i had a little boyfriend well, a young man, boyfriend. And my mother kept saying, come back to california. And i said, mama, when i go back, im not going back to san diego. I dont like san diego. Its too country. San diego is flat. I said, im going home to San Francisco. She says, claudette, please come back. She says, ill tell you what. Ill pay your way back, and if you dont like it, you can go back to d. C. Or San Francisco. Well, i came back and started partying. Im a kid. Im partying. And then, i got a job. So, i was stuck there for two years, another city i didnt like. Then, i moved to l. A. , because im partying in l. A. I have friends there. This is during the summertime. I love dancing. And i thought, ill dance all summer, go to all these parties, and then, ill go up to San Francisco and get a job. Well, i never did, because i waited too late. [laughter] so, i got stuck in l. A. David yeah. Gloria yeah. David and thats where you stayed . Gloria uhhuh. David yeah. And what did you end up doing for work . Gloria my last job was ab 9, Assembly Bill 922, which is an expulsion counselor for l. A. , Los Angeles Unified School district. David okay. Gloria lausd, yeah. David so, did you work for the schools for most of your career then . Gloria well, i taught people working for masters. You know i have a doctorate in Human Behavior . David mmhmm. Gloria so, i taught graduate students career psychology at cal lutheran and mount st. Marys. David okay. Gloria yeah. David where did you do your graduate work . Gloria at usau san diego. David okay. So, back to california. [laughs] gloria yeah, well, my masters at usc. [laughs] yeah, im a california person. David yeah. So, what i do want to ask more details about the sitins, but lets stay in california for a moment. Gloria okay. David what did that experience that you went through there, both as a student and just experiencing that side of jim crow that was kind of different from, maybe, from where you were raised, and then going through the sitins there and all that, and coming back, what did you take away from that . What did you bring back to california . Gloria that the wheels of justice turn slowly. [laughs] really and truly, its slowly, you know. And i often thought would i do it again . Yeah, i would do it again. I would do it again. Yeah. It did hurt me jobwise. I went for a job in d. C. , and the guy said, i have to hire you, because you made a high score on the exam. But i dont think you would be happy here. He says, i see youve been involved in civil rights, because i always put down that i have an arrest record. And then, for lausd, i took the written exam ten times, never flunked the written. They flunked me on the t e, the training and experience. So, i was working for the County School district before i came to lausd. And i asked the superintendent of the county he liked me as a person i said, mr. [tolen], can you find out why they wont hire me in l. A. . And he did. He says, you have an arrest record for sitins, and they think youre going to be a problem. And i finally got in because somebody mistakenly sent me a contract. I think it was my guardian angel. I really do. I think somebody saw what was happening im just guessing maybe a black secretary, and sent the paper out. David mmhmm. Gloria so, its there. You want to talk more about the sitins, and i guess i dont talk a lot about it because i think in my i think ive suppressed that. It was uncomfortable, very uncomfortable, and it hurts to this day. David what is it about it, do you think . Gloria because it hurts because many peoples attitudes have not changed, you know, on both sides. And also, when i see these black kids not going to school, it hurts me to my heart. Not voting. You know, dont they realize . They need an education. They have to vote. And many of them are not doing it. And i want to cry. You know, i really want to cry. David yeah, you told me before we started that thinking back to these times made you feel very emotional. I was wondering what exactly you were thinking about. Gloria yeah, the whole thing in life, but the way the situation is today. And also, with obama being president , many feelings have come to surface, many of what other people feel have come to surface in a negative fashion. And i dont like that, you know, the screaming out during sessions, calling him names, comparing him to hitler, and so forth. And i do know you always need a top dog. I understand that. And it will be if we get rid of race, itll be size, height itll be something, color of eyes. When my brother came back from switzerland he was the man behind kissinger in the geneva conference. David oh, wow. Yeah. Gloria he came back and he says, claudette, you know, he says, this stuff is b. S. I said, what . He says, the racial stuff. He says, we have World Problems. He was really upset. He says, we have World Problems to contend with. David so, you come from a family of serious achievers, it sounds like. Gloria yeah, i do. David with an emphasis on education. Gloria yeah. David why any insight into that . [laughs] gloria no. Not at all, not at all. No. Im glad i did. David yeah. Gloria yeah. David yeah. In your work in the School District and as a counselor, were there racial issues that came up . Gloria yeah. In fact, i was so angry i wrote a letter, threepage, typewritten, well, computerwritten letter. And, theyre going to say it was not racial, but it was. We did expulsions for kids who brought knives, guns, drugs, and so forth. Okay, we had a hearing, and if we found this to be so, then we told you you were straightexpelled or suspendedexpelled, which meant you were either kicked out of the School District or you go to a special school. We had a kid who, without any names, of course, who was involved and very involved in drugs, but because his parents had money, he was white, they didnt kick him out. And i was so angry. And i was one of three on the committee, and i told the other two committee people, who are white, i said, you know, hes guilty. And they said, well, hes going to go to college. I said, so . Well, we judge it on a case by case i said, dont feed that to me. You know, thats like saying, oh, youre so good. You can do that. i said, dont do that to me. I said, the kid is guilty. So, i wrote a letter saying that inner city kids who are not going to go to college who do the same thing or not as much will be expelled. David expelled. Gloria yeah. So, its there. David yeah. Hmm. Its so insidious, yeah. John how did you feel when obama was elected . Gloria i was elated because he was intelligent, not because he was only black. I have to put black, too. Because he was intelligent, knowledgeable, and i felt he was going to do the best he could for everyone, you know, not just black people, everyone. Yeah. You cant have someone doing for one group and not the whole. David were you working for the School District during the busing period in los angeles . Gloria yeah. In fact, i was on one of the committees and i asked the question, i said, why are you only busing the black kids . And the person who was in charge said, did you hear what i said . He shut me up. He says, did you hear what i said . Right now were busing the black kids. And that was it, and he talked over me. David hmm. And that was it . Gloria yeah. David yeah. And that is how it happened. Gloria yeah. David absolutely. I remember that. Gloria yeah, theyre the ones who had to get up early, come home late. David mmhmm, mmhmm. Gloria drive far. David mmhmm. Gloria i know where i lived in l. A. I lived in view park, which had the number one Elementary School academically in my area, because the people who lived in my area were educators, doctors, lawyers, black people mostly. And our school was top. My kids went to private school. The french school. But anyway, [laughs] they bused the kids from the school, and no parent would put a kid on the bus. They said, why should we bus our kids . Our kids have had integrated experiences. Theyve gone to europe. You know, theyve been to stores. They dont need to go to a white school. Well, what the School District did was take out every other grade. David oh. Gloria so, you had to bus your kid away. David right. Was that one of the reasons why you sent your kids to private school or not . Gloria no, i just did. David there were other reasons for that. Gloria i sent them to the french school. I just did. Yeah. They ended up at Public School eventually. David oh, they did . Gloria yeah. David yeah. And which school . Gloria you know pali . David yeah. Gloria yeah. David thats where my sister went. Gloria oh, really . David yeah. Gloria yeah. David and had an okay experience there . Gloria yeah. David yeah. Okay. Gloria my kids dont see things the way i see things anyway. I mean, they have experience. My son used to be Vice President of fritolay, of dr. Pepper, in marketing. And before that, he was with fritolay in marketing. And i dont want to say anything about different corporations, so i wont name the corporation, but he hit a glass ceiling, also, which you know. David mmhmm. Did you talk as you were raising your own children, did you talk to them about the experiences that you had had . Gloria i did not no. You know, my mother didnt tell me well, she would show me these history books, and i would see and read in the history books, but she didnt want to prejudice me against people, which i can appreciate. And i didnt want to do that to my children either. I know i took them out of school, and i stayed home that day, and took on Martin Luther kings birthday, i would take them to the museum. You know, that was the big black thing that we did, i guess. [laughs] david before it was a National Holiday . Gloria yeah, a National Holiday, yeah. David right. What about getting positive images of black people in schools and things like that . Was that happening for your children . Gloria you know, i dont think anymore than i got. Yeah. Because i i dont think so. Hmm, no. I was on a Book Committee with lausd, and i said, why is this page with a black person on it at the end of the chapter . And it was mifflin houghton. And they said, because when we send the books down south, we tear that page out we dont include that page. I said, but ive read the chapter, and it has nothing to do with the chapter. I said, you just stuck a black person in there to sell your book. David hmm. Gloria you know . David hmm. Because the project that were working on is on the Civil Rights Movement, right . Gloria civil rights, yeah. What is the Civil Rights Movement to you . I know it can be defined in different ways. I am interested, in the experiences that you had, whether you see yourself as part of it . What is the Civil Rights Movement . Ms. Grinnell today, the kids, especially in l. A. , they are not concerned in civil rights. Its lala land. What shoes do you have on . What purse . What brand name . Whether you can rap, play ball, basketball, where jewelry. Thats black, white, green, or yellow. They are very involved in superficial things that wont last. To me, i moved up here and i kept my house in l. A. In case they, they meaning white people, in case they burn a cross on my lawn, i am moving. I am too old to fight now. Of course, they did not. You thought that might happen. Ms. Grinnell yes, because i read in the newspaper that a black kid had nigger written on ojai. Cker in about in over an didt incidents of racism not surprise you . I am wondering what you could tell me life is like in a town like this for an africanamerican person. It is a small town that in a lot of little restaurants. I dont know who plays in the theater. I do not go to them anymore. It is a nice little place. Their were walking trails and horse trails. And the helicopters are private helicopters. It was Something Else to see those helicopters. And it was Something Else to see the sky full of helicopters again. I had forgotten that. Gloria thats right, yeah. I knew how to work the projects, if i had to go in them. I knew if the helicopters were overhead, if its too late in the day, you dont go in. You know . David umhmm. So, did you do in your job, did you do home visits and that kind of thing that took you into . Gloria not as an expulsion counselor, but before that, i was making home calls as a job in another counselor, psa, Pupil Services [and attendance], which expulsion was under that, psa. But it was a different we had i dont know how many jobs under psa. I would make home calls, but you learn how to make home calls. You know . David umhmm. Gloria you learn when you knew on what we call mothers day, when the people got their welfare checks, you dont go in. Different days, you know. David umhmm. Welfareat happened on check day . Gloria the people werent going to be home. Theyre busy. David so, do you think again, this is back to, i guess gloria yes, i know gloria because thats what youre doing. David yeah. Where do you think we are now . Or are you how do you feel about where we are now . Gloria ive thought about that. David yeah. Gloria i think what do they say . The more things change, the more they stay the same. I think things are we have code words now, you know. And its like living in california now. Its covert. You know. So excuse me. But my neighbor we go out to eat. Were going out to eat next monday, four of us. My neighbor oh, when i moved in here, my neighbor sent me a pie, which i thought was very nice, and another neighbor gave me some fruit. Anyway, my neighbor said, oh, im from some southern state. And she said it again, to let me know, i think, that, hey, im okay. Im a human being, you know, because she told me that. David trying to make a connection. Gloria yeah. I didnt answer your question, and i have pondered that question. Where are we today . Yeah, the black kids dont have to go into education, social work, the ministry, whatever the jobs were that we could get. If you notice, you ask an old person like me, im seventythree, what did you do . Theyre all in education, because thats the only thing we could do. All the black men were at the post office, you know, with degrees. Today, you can get other jobs, fortunately. I dont know how high youre going, but you can get other jobs. David so, what thats a sort of a segue, i guess. Let me ask about your graduate student experience. Were there other women in your program . Were there other black students in your program . Gloria yeah. Usc doesnt have didnt have many blacks. But, yeah, there were other blacks. And usiu had a few, a few, you know, not many. David yeah. Gloria yeah. And the experience was fine. I didnt feel any racism at all. David umhmm. I just and so, from that experience that you had at Virginia Union im thinking especially the sitin experience did you, did that ever come back to you . Did you draw on that experience at all in later parts of your life . Gloria draw on it in which way . David i dont know. Ill just leave it open to you. Were there times that that came back to you, or that you took something from that experience that may have influenced where you what you did with it . Gloria yeah, i think it opened me to be more respectful, in my mind, of people of different cultures. I call richmond a different culture. [laughs] yeah, to be respectful and to appreciate differences. We all cant be alike. And to appreciate where i am at the moment. At that time, i was so, my god, i cant stand richmond. Look at the people. Theyre backwards. You know, im judging. They werent backwards; i was backwards. You know, they were fine. David what was it like for you going back for the reunion . Gloria richmond hasnt changed. It still it looks the same to me. And yet, they say it had. I dont know. It looked when i saw downtown, i said, my god, this place is the same. I like visiting, but i like but i am going to live in california. And im sure theyre glad im here. [laughter] david would you have sent your own children to historically black colleges . Gloria my son went to union, but he didnt like it. He says, mom, i cant take it. Its too country. But he did go to morehouse. David oh, he did . Gloria yeah, for undergrad. David yeah. Gloria and then, that school in carolina i told you about for grad. David umhmm. Was that going to a historically black college, was that something that you thought might be important . Gloria i wanted both my children to go, but as i told you, my daughter was only 16 fifteen, i think, when she started. David oh, wow. Gloria she was too young. David she was young. Gloria yeah. And my son, i think, was sixteen or seventeen, you know, too young. David they went to college young. Gloria yeah, but he was ready. She said she was too immature, but she knew she was. David so, she was mature [laughter]. Enough to know that she was immature. Gloria yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yeah. David right. Gloria what did i take out of it . Well, as i said, i really had my eyes opened when i went to the reunion, the fiftiethyear reunion for the sitin people. And i had thought about it, too, about how i was so judgmental. I remember an old black lady saying to me, honey, why are you guys marching for this . You need to march for better jobs. And i thought, you silly old lady. She must have been every bit of fifty. [laughs] you know, why are you asking me this silly question . I didnt say that to her, but i was thinking, oh, were not ready yet. When are you going to be ready . David hmm. So, you i mean, really, youre involved in very early sitins. Gloria umhmm. David and did and left Virginia Union not, i dont know, not too long after that . Gloria well, i graduated in 62. David okay. Alright, so a couple of more years. Gloria yeah. David did you follow what was going on in, either back in richmond or in other parts of the south . Gloria yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, in fact, i was here, which is not quite the sitins, but the march on washington, i was here. And i told my husband, gee, i want to go to the march on washington. I really did, you know. And my brother would keep me informed. He says, claudette, today people are meeting at the white house and planning strategy with kennedy. I said, youre kidding. He says, yeah. [pause] so, yeah. David just to follow on that, i was thinking of do you remember your reactions to the legislation that was passed, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights act . Gloria i was extremely happy. Of course, it doesnt take much to make me happy now. You know . David umhmm. How does that relate to what we were saying before about you can change maybe you can change rules, but can you change hearts and minds . Did you think that those why did you think those acts were important . Gloria well, you know well, as i said, first of all, you have to educate people. And maybe, hopefully, through education, people will change their way of thinking, hopefully. Maybe people will get out to vote, if they can, if they dont put they, i keep saying they, the parties that be, black or white put stumbling blocks in the way. You know, hopefully. We have so many people that dont care, that say, what difference does my vote make . Its not going to change anything anyway. David right. And were in a situation just in the last few days where it seems like the Voting Rights act might be challenged. Gloria yeah. David whats your reaction to that . Gloria good. Lets take it all the way up and see what happens. [laughter] good, good. David right. Gloria yeah. David yeah. Gloria you know, its fine. As my uncle and my aunt said, lets have a good old fight. My uncle and aunt loved knockem down fights, legally. David umhmm. Gloria yeah. David well, that brings me to another question, which is, how did your family react about your involvement in the sitins . Gloria well, i called my uncle. And he used to call me screwball. He said screwball, talk to martin m. Martin. That was the attorney handling it. That was his friend. And i talked to attorney martin. I said, my uncle told me to talk to you. He said, whos your uncle . I said, j. Hugo madison. He said, oh, i know him. I said, he says for you to take care of me. He says, okay, i will. [laughter] and i felt very happy and giddy about the sitins. I didnt it was depressing, as i said, the whole thing of being in that paddy wagon. It was not clean. And then, being in the jail wasnt clean. And then, the courtroom was segregated, and it was smelly. And the guy who came in was nasty and smelly. I just thought, im losing my mind. This is hell. I really thought i was i didnt know what hell was at that time. [laughs] yeah. David umhmm. But you said you were also giddy. Gloria yeah, i was giddy because im changing the world. David right. Gloria its going to change now. Im going to court. Its going to change. Were all going to be happy. And, you know, it was going to be black people are going to stand up, and white people are going to be okay. I mean, were not going to all sit down and eat ice cream together, but at least youre going to respect that i can sit down here. Yeah. David umhmm. So, you got the support of your uncle, it sounds like. Gloria oh, yeah, and my aunt. My aunt called me from new york. David okay. Were there others that were . Gloria oh, yeah, my david fearful for you, or . Gloria no, nobody. Nobody. My mother, my stepfather, nobody. No, umum, not at all. David so, what was the reaction you got from them and from others . Gloria oh, they were very happy. And my uncle says, claudette, things are not going to change as fast as you think. It takes time. It takes time. David did you believe him . [laughs] gloria yeah, because i knew he was doing that in norfolk. David umhmm. Gloria yeah, i believed him. David yeah. Did you feel that the family that you came from prepared you for what you got involved in, in some way . Gloria im sure. Im sure. Without knowing it, you know, you give your children their values, covertly and overtly, both ways, yeah. David right. Gloria yeah. In fact, my mother always said, the squeaky wheel gets the attention, whether its bad or good. So, i guess i was a squeaky wheel. David umhmm. And have you stayed in touch with people from Virginia Union . You went to the reunion, but other than that . Gloria no. No, umumm. Only charles, and that was by mistake. I saw well, not by mistake. I saw him on tv during black history month. And i said, thats charles. And i went online and found him. David umhmm. And had you been aware what he had been doing all these years . Gloria no, no. John [what was he like . What was he like when you were gloria he was my boyfriend. David aha. [laughter] john [inaudible] david now, were getting somewhere. Gloria and he was a baptist minister, and at that time i was a pseudocatholic. I went to Catholic Church in richmond, and i knelt down. And everyone came in the pew. They looked over and saw me and got up and left. I said, now, my faith is not that good to start out with, and you guys are not helping it any, im thinking, you know. And this people are going to hate me when i say this, because im spiritual now, whatever that means. So, i told the priest after mass, i said, you know, people came in when i say people, white people people came in the pew where i was, and they looked over and saw me and got up and left. I said, then, an old lady came. There was no place to sit, and she came late and saw me. She knelt down beside me, then she saw me and got up and left. He says, my child, pray for her. And i thought, well, im not going to church anymore. I have to pray for people . And you cant tell them, you know, during a mass . David that was the last time you went to that church . Gloria yeah. And, as i said, my faith wasnt too strong anyway, so it didnt take much for me to go over. [laughs] david umhmm. So, what was Young Charles sherrod like . Gloria he was nice. I would go with him when he preached down in the country. He had to do like an intern preaching at these country churches. And he used to say, darn, you catholic girl. He would call me a catholic girl. We were when i say boyfriendgirlfriend, we werent tight, tight, tight, but we were boyfriendgirlfriend. David umhmm. And had you seen preaching like that before . Gloria yeah. I went with my girlfriend in San Francisco to one of her churches. But they werent emotional, you know, but they did sing songs, i mean, you know, songs with a beat to it. David right. Gloria yeah. I like that now. David uhhuh. [laughs] gloria yeah. [laughs] david i dont know that it would be that easy to find here in ojai, though. [laughs] gloria well, no, no. You can get it on youtube. David yeah. [laughter] right, right. Well, do you have any other questions you wanted to ask . Joe and john you covered a lot of ground. Gloria yeah, im sorry. My memory is really bad. David no, no, its been wonderful. Gloria i am so sorry. David its been wonderful. Very emotional. What was it that made you so emotional . Gloria well, i felt like i wanted to cry, because when i think about what, as they said, happened in the past, and what is happening now, im not too sure that were that far from the past, you know, now, with things that are [sighs] i went online to see the insults that were hurled at obama and i had to stop, because there were so very many of them. And all of them some of them are right out in his face. And i thought, why . I used to think the poorer the person was, the more they would hurl insults, but thats not true. They can have ten phds and do the same thing. And, as i said, i want to cry about my black children not voting. White kids, too, dont vote, unfortunately. Not going to school. Drugs are rampant. Ojai has a big drug problem. You know, what are we doing . What are we rearing today . Where are we going . John well, youre not alone [in alone in those things. Gloria yeah. David yeah. Gloria you know. I dont know. David im just thinking, i mean, were obviously, through this project, were in some ways celebrating the Civil Rights Movement, but were also taking stock, i think, too. So, its a time to reflect gloria yeah. David not only on what was done and sitins in the 1960s, but where we are. Gloria sometimes i dont want to reflect, because its uncomfortable. I told my husband ooh, im freezing again. I told my husband, i said, you know, im not filling this paper out before i go to bed, because i wont be able to sleep, when i put my uncle down and my aunt down, thinking about the things they were involved in, and so forth. David and what is it you think about how they would respond to things now . Gloria no. I know what they went through, you know. I dont i think i did tell you maybe i my aunt integrated the bus line, a Greyhound Bus line that the courts had already said it should be not separate but equal, together, and they did not integrate it. It was in virginia. And my aunt told my mother my mother was visiting. My aunt told my mother and another sister, come on, were going to go to d. C. From virginia, and were going by bus. And my mother says, why . Lets drive. And my aunt said, no, were going by bus. Mama says, we dont want to take the greyhound. Anyway, they took the greyhound. And my aunt got off and says, you keep going to d. C. Call hugo thats my uncle and call powell, Adam Clayton Powell, because im going to get arrested. And she did, because she sat in the white section. But she made them the courts made them obey the law. David umhmm. John [that is something that that is something that surprised me about the movement was how much, once the law was in effect, how much testing of the law had to be done all over the country. Gloria right, yeah. In fact, something was on the news recently about some little southern town, and i dont know what it was. David umhmm. Gloria did you see it . I missed it. John [inaudible] gloria oh, yeah. But i know, even here in california, i know not to go in some cities. David today . Really . Gloria heck, yes. David yeah. Gloria yeah. David because you know what kinds of things do you think would happen . Gloria well, for example, i was going to a city, and i dont want to name the city, and i passed through a little place, canyon country, down that way. And i got lost before i had david gps. Gloria the gps. And my daughter was with me. I said, we cant stop at that little club there. I said, it looks like a little redneck club. We cant stop there. I said, do you know what im talking about . She says, mom, i know. I dont know if she knew. She said she knew. Because you can feel it, you know. David umhmm. Gloria yeah. David and thats something that in some ways hasnt changed. I mean, im sure you could sense those places gloria yeah. David throughout your gloria right. And when you intellectualize it, you get in trouble. You have to feel it in your gut and go with your gut. John [inaudible] gloria right. Absolutely. And thats true for man, period, in everything he does, yeah, i mean, regardless of race. David umhmm. And in some ways, thats you rely on a community, right, to help you through that or to navigate these things. So, in some ways, its difficult i would think difficult in a place like ojai. The community isnt that large. Gloria no. But ive felt it in ojai. But i move one, you know. You dont have to like me. Thats fine. [laughs] david [laughs] right. Gloria do you remember when they had the green book for black people for triplea . David no, i dont. Gloria oh, youre too young. John whats that . Gloria when you traveled we were little. I was little, and my parents used to go to triple a and get you know how they draw the map for you . Well, they had a special book for black people where you could stay, yeah. Because when we traveled, my parents sometimes would stop at a black persons house and say, do you know where black people can stay . When we traveled down south. And they would say, mrs. Jones has a room. And we would go there and stay overnight. Those aren john the things people cannot even imagine now. Gloria right. Yeah, they have no idea. Yeah. Thats true. David it also says a lot about, i mean, its interesting that triplea sort of formalized it, but it also says a lot about how people adapt and take care of each other, too, you know, that you could stop at someones house and theyd put you up, or that mrs. Jones did put up travelers. Gloria yeah. On the flip side, integration closed many black peoples businesses. David absolutely. Gloria yeah. David yeah. Gloria Peg Leg Bates had a place in the, um, upper new york, i cant think what its called. People back east know it. And i heard that the black people used to go there and stay overnight and have a good time. And it closed when integration happened. Many of the black hotels and other places closed. David umhmm. Are there other things that you think the black community lost through integration . Gloria i think some of the black kids dont know who they are, whatever that means, who they are, you know. My girlfriend is married to a mexican fellow, and her kids told her, mom, oh, you just think that because youre black. And, yeah, they dont know anything about her, really. David umhmm. It also means they dont identify that way. Gloria right, yeah. David yeah, we hear a lot of stories of, in some ways, stories of loss or even nostalgia for gloria the good old days david black schools and some gloria oh, black schools, umhmm. David and some of the things yeah, looking at it as the good old days, even though, of course, there was a lot that was very bad about it. Gloria right. You know, speaking of black, i have written the l. A. Times and various other newspapers about not capitalizing the word black. And i spelled it out why i felt it should be. I said, white is generic. black is not. When you say black, you only mean an american from africa. You dont mean a jamaican. You dont mean a puerto rican. You only mean a person in america who is black. So, it should be capitalized. David youre right, yeah. Gloria and i feel that its an insult when you see in the papers different groups of people, and then a lowercase letter for black. David umhmm, yeah. I agree with you as it turns out. Yeah, yeah. Gloria i wrote a letter also, in that package, i have a letter that i wrote to this local paper, and im surprised they printed it. They talked about two black women doing something fraudulent, and should you see them, call the police. So, i wrote them a long letter. I said, you named two black women. i said, you have made it dangerous for me to walk downtown. No description. David thats it . That was the only description . Gloria yeah. Its in that packet. David have you written any other letters to the editor over the years, or other issues that got under your skin at all . Gloria only about the black issue have i written to the l. A. Times and im always writing letters well. David yeah . Gloria but i write good letters, too, to compliment people, when they should be. I fell. I was riding my bicycle and i turned a corner too fast. And, for the first time, i didnt have my helmet on, and i hit my head on the fire hydrant around the corner. David ouch. Gloria and im down there crying like an ugly thing, just crying, and i look uglier than ugly when i cry. And two men got out of their truck. They said, are you okay . And im crying, crying. One man held my hand. Then, i thought, oh, god. Youre looking ugly. Stop crying. So, i stopped crying. But, you know, they were two white men helping a black lady, or two men helping a female, for that matter, you know. So, i havent felt anything in a while. I mean, im sure as i said, if i feel anything, i move on. You know . David umhmm. It might be wrapping up here. I feel but do you think about that, you know, what you did at Virginia Union and being part of those protests, as something very historic that you did, of being a participant in this movement . Gloria i do now. I didnt think it was. I thought it was something we were doing, and i was one of many people across the country. But i didnt realize it until afterwards. In fact, i didnt realize it until i was at a school. And i was in the library, and the lady says, dr. Grinnell, do you know anything about the Civil Rights Movement . And i said, yeah, i do. I said, i was in it. She says, you were . I thought, its not a big deal. You know . Then i realized, shes young. Shes a young teacher. And thats when it hit me. I guess it was a big deal. You know . If you like American History. V, keep up with us follow us at cspan history. This is American History tv wecspan3, were each weekend feature 48 hours of programming. Xploring our nations past historian Harold Holzer talks about artifacts featured in the publication, the civil war in 50 objects. Pike ordered by abolitionist john brown,. This discussion took place online. It isd evening, everyone my d