That your parents drove you to the college here in fall of 1957 . Yes, they did. What did you discover here . It was a big day for me. For the whole community. I came from something. I didnt just show up. I came being supported by the whole community. They prayed for me at church. They gave me a little a few pennies here and there. As i said, we didnt have a lot of money. And i had a little scholarship. I had taken the sats there, and so i had done well enough to have been granted a little scholarship money, and i was going to work a little bit. But there was always that, let me give you a few pennies. So, i came, being borne up by the good wishes of the community. And off we came to Bennett College. Id never been to Bennett College before. Id never been to greensboro before. And i arrived here to have ourselves, you know, just sort of swallowed up, my parents and me, and all of us, by a lot of parents and a lot of students, all being deposited by parents. And it was a lonely feeling when they said goodbye and left. It was very lonely. Tell me about some of the people who would, you know, in short order become persons who were important to you here on the campus, faculty, staff, fellow students. Dr. Terry i met when i as my parents were getting me situated in my room, there was a woman who was bringing her daughter there was a girl, roslyn smith, being deposited from West Virginia. And her mom met my mom, and they talked. And roslyns mother told my mom how they talked and just told each other so much in so little time, ill never know but heres what got established in that little while. Ross mother had other children in college at the same time, and so she immediately knew she told roslyn immediately she wouldnt be coming home, ros, that is. Ros wouldnt be coming home. There wasnt going to be money to bring roslyn home except at christmastime and in the summertime. My mom told mrs. Smith that we lived a couple of hours up the road, and they would be driving back to see me often and theyd be i could come home quite often. I could come home for thanksgiving. I could come home whenever, you know, and that roslyn could come home with me anytime. So, mrs. Smith and mrs. Alexander sort of bonded that day, and they exchanged children. My mom became surrogate ross mom, and ross mom became sort of my mom, although it would take a long time before i got to West Virginia to meet ross mother. Ros went home with me that very, very first break that we had, and she went home with me for all four years. My very best friend to this day is roslyn smith. She is actually living in greensboro. Isnt that nice . Dr. Terry and so, its she retired here some ten years ago from new york, where she had been working in social work. So, she came back when she retired to greensboro. I often laugh at her and say, whyd you come back to greensboro . Did bennett have anything to do with it . But she came to greensboro, and then, of course, when i took the job here, i was delighted that shes here. And so, we are where we met. She was, as i think i understand, she was on really kind of in a different part of campus in the classroom, so to speak. Dr. Terry yes. Because she studied sociology and political science. Dr. Terry she studied sociology and political science. And you were doing english and theater. Dr. Terry i was doing english and theater. Yeah. Tell me about the world of being an english student and a theater student in those late 1950s. Dr. Terry oh, my goodness, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. My english professor was hobart jarrett. Well, i had several, but dr. Jarrett was the man who taught me literature. Dr. Jarrett, what a wonderful man. What a brilliant man. All of my, all of my faculty were. Dr. Jarrett was hard. He was tough. He exacted absolute perfection, and we were arrogant enough to think we could give it to him, you know. He really had us just charmed into thinking that we could write anything, we could articulate any idea, we could debate anybody. He was just a wonderful teacher, and he empowered us a great deal, but no nonsense. So, i was very much engaged with him. He would walk on campus and say, miss alexander, i am going to pick up baugh. What am i . Thats a book. And id say, Literary History of england . Hed say, yes. You know, i mean, those little games, you know, he would he was such a showoff about how erudite he was, and we reveled in it. He also was a very handsome man, and he smoked a pipe. And he was so he was so elegant. We all just sort of drooled after dr. Jarrett, but in a nice way, nice way. We were so, so proud to say we were his students. Now, that was dr. Jarrett. Then there was dr. Crawford, who taught us grammar. He was less how should i say this . He didnt, he wasnt i dont want to say he was less polished, but he was less polished. Thats a fact. He was less polished. But he was a terror. He didnt like you to split verbs or anything of that sort. He would so, he taught us grammar, and he would have us at the sentence. He would make us parse verbs, and he would make us diagram sentences. And he was, he was tough. I wasnt i dont think i was one of his favorite students, but i was treated kindly by him because i could diagram a sentence, you know, and i got on out of his way. But there he was, he was serious. You know, he was, he was just a serious man, and so he wasnt quite like dr. Hobart jarrett. Then we had in the theater, we had fred allen eady, who had come to us from howard and was a terrific director. And we got him married. We thought he needed to be married. So, we selected the lady on the campus that we thought he ought to be married to, and so we bought her we collected money and bought her flowers and sent her flowers and said they were from mr. Eady. But we told him. We told him, we said, now, we took this lady these flowers. You should follow up, and we put your name on it. He did. And you want to know something really funny . They got married. We always took credit for that. Bennett was wonderful. What can i say . I lived in the honors dorm, which was kent hall. We were very proud to be bennett girls because we were taught every day that we were as good as anybody in the world and better than a lot of people in the world and had responsibility to help those who werent as fortunate as we were, that there was something in life that required us to be as good as we could be and to give back to the communities from which we came. It was that sense that led us to be cognizant of what was happening in the community, helping people to get registered to vote, understanding the importance of registering to vote, and getting people to do that, taking ourselves into the community to be helpful to help people in the ways that we could, to conduct food drives, to the whole sense and to talk about the community. You know, i grew up thats very important what im saying. Not to you so much as i reflect on it, why i think it was important to me that they taught us these things is because, you see, i talk about having been happy when i was growing up as a youngster. What i mean is that i felt safe, that happiness was somehow connected with being safe. But i can remind you that in that time the whole southern terrain was dotted with white only signs, with signs that said, you know, coloreds or negro, signs sort of, that sort of they were reminders that there were places that, that you couldnt go and there were places that you ought not to go if you wanted to be safe. So, safety was a part of being happy. And thats and when you were cocooned in safety and you were just such a and thats what this campus was. This campus was a place that we knew that we were taken care of. Now, we were asked to give all we could give in the classes, but we also knew that we were special. And that is why it was inevitable that we entered into the sitins. Yeah. Dr. Terry we knew they were wrong. You see, you cant have someone inside the gates being taught how they could be the best of everybody in anybody, they could be everything and then walk right out the gate and be told, you cant sit here. And i think its very important to know that woolworths became an ideal that you cant sit down for a coke. Now, you know you could go into woolworths. Woolworths was not, was not closed to black patronage at all. You could go into woolworths. You could buy anything you wanted that they sold in woolworths if you had money. You just couldnt sit down to get a sandwich at the lunch counter. So, it was the lunch counter. You couldnt sit down there to eat. So, you see, that stood in stark contrast to all the things that we had going on here at bennett, where we dressed for dinner in the evenings and sat with tablecloths and we learned, you know, which fork to use and how. And we went downtown wearing hats, and we wore gloves, and we were bennett ladies. You can see how it wouldnt it was just such a jarring thing to be told, well, bennett lady, guess what . You cant sit down there and have a cherry coke. So, those they were things that got us it was diseased, as it were. Its uncomfortable. One cannot square those two things. Did you, through these, through your first couple of years of college i mean, you being a College Student is a very encompassing and engaging kind of experience when youre happy and thriving in your classes and all. What portion of your attention, in some broad kind of sense, did you give to these wider questions . I mean, little rock is happening, the first desegregation of the local greensboro schools is happening. Dr. Terry yes. There are some early lawsuits moving through the courts filed by people like dr. Simpkins to try to dr. Terry yes. To break down barriers in the city. How much of that was a part of your, you know, what you gave your attention to, because there were lots of other things that were keeping you occupied . Dr. Terry there sure were. But i told you a part of bennett was always that the education at bennett was to prepare you to make a contribution to the world and to be reconnected into your community. My classmates had experiences before we got here. Even i didnt come here, you know, sort of from mars, where everything was great, and we never had a sense that there was there could be clashes between whites and blacks. We all knew about those things. I, you know, i grew up hearing and knowing about such things. You know, my brothers were my mother worried all the time about what would happen. So, what i mean when i say we were safe is exactly that. A storm is going on around us, we are aware of the storm, but we can also feel safe in here. And thats what i meant when i said that safety was a very important part of how i, i think, became was a healthy person. Because i look back over it, and i think was healthy. I think i mean a healthy ego, a healthy psyche, growing up in that. I dont think it damaged me in any way. Now, i might be wrong, but i dont think i grew up with my mother was wise, and she would talk about these things to us precisely so that they wouldnt scare us so much or they would we would know how to live with them. My mother would tell us she didnt want us to hate white people. My mother had this rule she wouldnt let us say they when we talked about white people. She wouldnt let us say, they did soandso. No, no. So, one day she took a piece of chalk, and she wrote they, and then she erased the t on one end and she erased the y. And she said, now its he. you come and tell me what he did. You name him and you name her, and we will deal with that. But you will not ever speak of all white people as bad or having treated you bad. And, you see, we had we understood that. So, we couldnt afford to be shielded from what was happening in the world. I just am always grateful that my parents taught us, i think, the best way to negotiate it. She told my son as i said, i have one son. And hes always so pleased to remind me that, when he was home talking to his grandma, he told her something about some white people doing something. He said, grandma, why did you, why did you let them do that . Why do you let them call you mary . She says, mike, you know, theyre as good as they know how to be. What are you going to do with that . Theyre as good as they know how to be. And so, there was a way that she my mother allowed us to have an ego about who we were, and she wouldnt let anybody damage that. So, we were just told. She said to mike, theyre as good as they know how to be. But what are you going to do with that then . Theyre as good as they know how to be. But to come back to your question, so here, yes, we had dr. Edmunds. We had roslyn, my friend, was in sociology. Well, they didnt talk about we had a life out there. They talked about issues. We talked in our classes about what was happening in the world. We didnt pretend that the world wasnt out there. I think you missed dr. Kings appearance on the campus in 1958. Is that correct . Dr. Terry yes. But 1959, things especially fall of 1959, of course, the momentum is gathering and will soon lead to some direct action protest. What do you remember about the fall of 1959, and some of the women on campus, of course, were talking very actively and really thinking very hard about this question . Dr. Terry well, it really started in the my classmates who were in the sociology classes. They took sociology, roslyn smith, gwen mackel, shirley dismuke that group. Gloria brown. They were the ones that were engaged, engaging in an intense way. But, you see, they would come back to the dorms and tell us what was happening. And, as i say, roslyn was my best friend. We knew what was going on. We knew and you start as a theoretical, how do we conduct ourselves in the world if that is the case . And then, someone says, why dont what would happen if we boycotted . What would happen if that how can these barriers be torn down . These were questions that were being asked. You know, there had been sitins before. Greensboro was not the that was not something that never happened before. There had protest before. There had been marches before. Bennett girls had been engaged with protesting the showing of the film birth of a nation, which is a pretty ugly film and its stories. Youd done Voter Registration work. Dr. Terry we had done Voter Registration. I dont so i cannot tell you exactly and precisely what moment, you know, there was this great epiphany and we did things. But what i end up knowing was that students were planning and talking about a boycott, going downtown and picketing, what would happen if they picketed, what would happen, and then it went from picketing to, well, what would happen if we sat in, sat down at the lunch counters . And so, these were conversations that were being talked about. Students were talked about training in nonviolence. Thats exactly what thats a route that people dont often remember is that these students were dr. Edmunds and our faculty talked about, what does it mean to be nonviolent . You remember king was talking about nonviolence. What does it mean to be nonviolent . If somebody hits you and you hit them back, you know, whats to be associated with that . How do you conduct yourselves . Is it dangerous, you know, what happens . So, it was in the air. And we were here on the campus, and, yes, we talked about those things. Do you think that these you described and named a group of women who were very much active in these kinds of conversations on the campus and friends of yours. Do you think that, among those women there is a sense that, that they were well, let me ask this way. To what extent would they think they ought to be placed in the how much should they be credited for the full realization of that impulse here in the Community Among students, and now were reaching across over to a t, that opened the door to direct action protest . Are they credited sufficiently i guess is the right way to dr. Terry they would say not. They would say they are not. Dr. Terry they would say not. Talk a little bit about that, if you would. Dr. Terry back in two years ago, i, for the 50th anniversary of the sitins, i was here as a new provost and i remembered those days, so i called a group of them to come back to talk about that. And so, we had a retrospective. Gwen mackel came, shirley dismuke came, delores finger came, roslyn smith came, linda brown was here. We were in the chapel and we talked about that, and they would say, no. Heres how they talk about it. They say that they, indeed, did not argue with the fact that the four young men at a t were the first to sit down. But they say that it was not spontaneous, that it had come that action had been born of a plan that had been carefully, carefully considered and deliberated, beginning here on bennetts campus with the girls, and that they had, in fact, been happily considering it. And dr. Jarrett had said to them, well, you girls shouldnt get engaged in doing that alone, because, you know, this is the girls must be protected, right . So, they were encouraged to invite the a t boys to sit with them and to plan this sitin and what it would be, because, you see, were talking about something that could be very dangerous. Nobody asked their parents. Our parents did not send us down here to go do that, you hear me . And they would not have been happy maybe. Some of them might have. Because our my classmates have wonderful stories about their lives. Gwen mackels parents had been run out of mississippi because of her dads political actions. These young women werent babes in the woods. I had my own father had had his, you know problems. We had shirley dismuke said she just couldnt figure out nobody had ever asked her to sit in the back of a bus or anything, you know. So, we all came with a real deep feeling that thats wrong. Thats wrong, and we knew that, so they wanted to correct it. And to be educated and not do anything about it was not your education wasnt going to mean very much. So, these girls would tell you that they worked very hard, they discussed everything, and they can tell you that they, that dr. Player, our president , was involved as well. And dr. Player was told, and dr. Player said she couldnt tell us not to, her girls and we were always called her girls she couldnt tell her girls not to engage in that. But she did point out that it would be sort of folly to start the sitins, to start the action before the christmas vacation, because if you started it at thanksgiving, say, for instance, and then everybodyd say, sorry, ive been politically active, but ive got to go home now, and ill come back. Ill see you after the vacation. So, she said she cautioned them to wait. And they did. And they told all of us, when they came back that they were all ready to start. And they came back. And on february 1, was it, the young men sat down. Now, heres an important thing. I asked gwen mackel, gwen, where were you on that day when they sat down . She said, i was in woolworths. What did you why were you there . She said, because we were there but first, you had to go buy something. See, we knew how to do it. You had you couldnt because we had been trained that if you didnt buy something, you could be tossed out of the store, you know, for trespassing. So, you buy you go in the store, you buy something. And she said, i was standing, waiting. Because it was a plan. And it did not it was a plan that had been created here on the campus. And so, the girls would think that they did not get enough credit. Thats what they would think. Of course, very quickly, many other students take places at the lunch counter, and there are dr. Terry yes. There are carpools and careful assignment of rotating shifts of students and all. And you sat down there, too. Can you dr. Terry yes, i did. Beside linda brown. Beside linda brown, thats right. Can you take us back and kind of describe the experience you had and the feelings that that generated and what you saw around you . Dr. Terry i think we might have been young, because, honestly, i felt proud. I dont think my mother ever felt maybe she felt proud, but i think that was not the her main feeling. I think she was terrified. I know that now because i have a child and i i mean, i have a son. Hes not a child anymore. Hes certainly a big grown man. But, even so, i think, as a mother, i would be afraid. But im going to tell you, we were proud. I was proud to sit there. I was very, very proud. I will tell you something else. I never, ever understood the hatred that came. It was absolutely surprising, because i did not understand why people would glare at us with such hatred for that. So, that was a little unnerving. But i was basically very proud to have done that. Did your on learning about it, did your parents have any words of guidance for you or comment . Dr. Terry no. No . Dr. Terry interestingly enough, my parents my mother never talked to me about that very much. She was always she was very quiet. My mom was never very quiet, but my mom didnt talk about that very much. I think i understand why. I think my mom didnt want to say, i wish you hadnt done it. I think my mom regretted the world as it was, that it had to be done, but i dont think my mom was elated that i went. I think my mom would have forgiven me if i had called in sick. [laughter] i think she might have. I dont think she would have been too upset if i had called in sick. But she never, ever let me know from her own words what she felt. She was just quiet. Dr. Player it would be interesting if you would maybe just say a few words about her, because, as youve already said, she made clear in certain unmistakable ways that excuse me. Stop for a sec. Okay, were ready again. Let me were back on after a short break. I want to ask a little bit for your thoughts and perspective on, say, dr. Player in her role here at Bennett College, and then the leadership at a t, because, of course, the institutions have separate histories, many similar general proud aspects of their history, but also, you know, a different relation to the state of north carolina, etc. Dr. Terry of course. And to talk a little bit about black leadership, educational leadership, in that era and the forces active upon that leadership. Dr. Terry what you want me to say about that . Well dr. Terry dr. Player was let me first tell you a little bit about dr. Player. She was a big, big, big, big woman, and i dont mean in stature, i mean in physical stature i mean in the shadow she cast over the campus when she walked it. She was quiet. She was a very, very quiet, very dignified woman. But i believed but we all believed, not i we all believed that she was profoundly committed to making bennett women, the girls who came to bennett, into women who could stand in the world, strong women with a commitment to social justice. Now, that i dont mean just to being good english teachers, being good, you know, math teachers, being good physicists. I mean undergirding all of that with a profound sense of social justice. And that was her i mean, and she talked about that, but quietly, in her philosophy. She talked about the fact that education was no good if you didnt use it to correct wrongs in society. She just believed that. And so, she didnt make fiery speeches about that. She wasnt a fiery speech person. But she was very quietly committed, and you knew when you were in her presence that it was not just nonsense that she was talking. She really believed and lived what she talked about. So, dr. Player was a really, really brave woman. And if she cared about anybody, she cared about the legacy that she would pass on to us at Bennett College. She was an incredible woman. So, that was dr. Player. I dont know very much about the leadership at a t, but i do know that whatever is said and written about the movement here as it played itself out in greensboro, Bennett College women were involved in it from the top down, and we were supported and we were encouraged, and so, the college was there. It was what we learned as a college. It was what we were brought together to do as a college. Now, i dont know what and dr. Player, we knew she was looking over us. We knew she was monitoring us. We knew, for instance, we knew she said that we could go down and march and sit down and sit at the lunch counter but that we would have to turn in our grades. There was no no faculty member was to give us excuses, you know. When i was in amherst, the kids used to ask, when they went off to march at a protest or something, theyd come and ask the professors to, you know, overlook the fact that they were there, you know, to forgive their, you know, bad grades. We said, no, you dont do that. Thats not a political stance. Thats youre not giving up anything. If youre not willing to risk your grades or to walk out and take a d to go do something, you dont mean it very much. So, here, we knew that this was something real, it was profound, and it was sort of like it was like dr. Player was here with us all the way, and we knew what that meant. And anybody who saw us knew that we came from there. They could trace us all the way back to where bennett started. And that was what i could say about dr. Player. Now, i dont know very much about the, who was i dont even know who, the name of the president at a t was. And i can suspect that he didnt spend a lot of time, that the young people down there from a t were spending a lot of time, you know, being supported and encouraged by the president. I dont know, but i now, i said that, but i can believe to my heart that he probably wanted the sitins to be successful. So, i can believe in my heart that he wanted those sitins to be very successful, and whether or not he was able to say, i dont know. But, as you say, there are different relationships that people had with the state and with being funded by the state. But dr. Player, you see, we were private. We were private. And if you ask, every one of us would tell you, i think, if we hadnt been private, i do believe dr. Player would have done exactly what she did. I cannot prove that, but i believe that, because it was so much a part of her. It was so much a part of her. You know, later you must know this story, that, when the girls were arrested during the second wave, they were put in jail she got in her car and drove downtown. Now, she didnt get a driver to take her downtown. She got in her car alone and drove downtown to go and to say, these are my girls. I brought them their homework. I want to see after them. I want to see what they were doing. I believe that she would have taken risks, risks that others did not and would not have taken, and i dont think that she would have judged them for that. I believe dr. Player would not have become the enemy of anybody at any one of these institutions because they did what they did. I think she would simply say, you must understand i do what i have to do, and i and thats the difference between us. I think thats the difference in how i would see dr. Player. Yeah. And she, just i dont think you actually said the word she went to the jail to dr. Terry yeah. To see the bennett women who had been arrested. Dr. Terry yeah, she went to jail. But, you know, thats a very dangerous that was a you know, here, this is a black woman in a car. A lot could have happened to her. A lot of people in greensboro did not like what was happening, and to see this woman you know, there had been a cross burned. She did have a cross burned at the College President s house, you know. Dr. Player was a committed and sincere soldier. She really was. Let me turn your attention to graduation and beyond, because, of course, that spring, then, the spring of 1961, you graduate. Dr. Terry yeah. And go on to chapel hill. Dr. Terry to chapel hill. And as a danforth fellow, i think. Dr. Terry yes. Yeah. Im very interested to have you describe your ambition and your experience in chapel hill and many things id like to ask about that, but let me just invite you to begin that story. Dr. Terry well, at that time, i knew i didnt know so much when i came to bennett, as a freshwoman, about what i wanted to do. It was sort of vague i want to teach, and ill go back home and teach in wise. But by the time, i had studied with dr. Jarrett and dr. Crawford, i was i wanted to do really, really i wanted to work in literature. I wanted to be an english teacher. I wanted to study english, and i knew that i needed to go to graduate school. At least, i had been encouraged by dr. Jarrett to go to graduate school and dr. Crawford and dr. Elizabeth sewell, who came later, and she thought i wrote well, and that always pleased me. And she said, go to she was an english woman, later left bennett, i think, and worked at uncg. Until that time, and i never could figure out how this worked, but if one wanted to go to graduate school prior to that, prior to my times coming and this was just changing when i entered uncg, just beginning to change if one were black, you could apply to the state after you had been accepted at a northern university, and the state, of course, would pay your way. Now, of course so as to avoid the obligation of desegregating on their own. Dr. Terry so as to avoid the obligation to desegregate and to have you in the classes there. So, we know that history. You know, James Meredith at ole miss and all of that. My father and mother said to me, if you want to go to grad school, im a taxpayer, my dad said. Go to chapel hill. So, and this was my mom really pushed this idea. Go to chapel hill. Now, this is after the sitins, you see, and all of that. So, now its go to chapel hill. I think my mom thought, all right. She can do it. Shes okay. So, mom was a little less tense. While she never talked to me about bennett and the sitins, she did say she wanted me to go to chapel hill, and she said, because youll be nearer home. And i didnt believe that. I thought she was kind of proud that i would go to chapel hill. So, i did. I went to chapel hill. Theres a funny story about chapel hill. I left here, and i went to hartford, connecticut, where i lived with my sister and brotherinlaw. And i worked as a waitress there, but my sister took all of my money. She took all of my money. Every week, shed take my money. And then, when i came back, got ready to come back to chapel hill, she cashed she gave me my money. That was enforced savings, and she took me shopping. My sisters and brothers were always very kind to me. Well, i came home and then before i got home, i had called to chapel hill to ask, to apply for graduate housing, and i was going to stay in the dorm. And yes, and they asked, did i fill out the form . They mailed it to me, to hartford. I mailed it back, saying, yes, i would like a roommate. And so, they sent me my room assignment and said i should appear at a certain place on a certain day to pick up the key. And i sent forward my deposit, etc. So, on that day, my dad took me and my mom and my brother, we drove down, and my sister. We drove down, and i went to the place and i got out. I said, im esther alexander. Im here to get my key. And there was a look of absolute consternation on the womans face, and she finally said, you cant be esther alexander. Well, now, that kind of confused me and my dad, because, you know, yes, i am esther alexander. As it turns out, you know what she had done. She had not known that i was black, and she had paired me with a white roommate. And there was a ruling at chapel hill at that time that that was not to be. So, she didnt quite know what to do with me. Now, i thought, oh, boy. This is not the best way to enter school. But i learned something that day, and my mom and i talked about it a lot. They kept me aside and eventually they came and said, now, you have your room. Your room is ready. And i said to my mom as we went down the hill, i said, well, im going to be the only person in that room. And she said, yes, i expect so. But and i would have i was prepared to just be furious. I think i was. But, on the way there, there were white girls sitting on suitcases, because they didnt have very much space, housing space, for graduate students and they would have to go in the city someplace. Those girls were from i dont know where, but they were saying to me, do you have a room . Do you have a room . Do you have a roommate . Do you want me . Do you want me . May i would you like a roommate . Would you like a roommate . Id be happy to room with you. And the lesson i learned, and my mom and i talked about it when we got in our room. She says, its not the girls, and you have to remember that. This is my mother saying, theyre as good as they know how to be. My mother said, its not the girls. Its the law. Its the ruling. Its the ruling that you hate. Dont hate the girls. She was right. I met some good friends there. They were never like roslyn smith, because they could come to a certain point in friendship, and there were doorways they couldnt cross or wouldnt let themselves cross. And i probably wouldnt let mine cross either. But they didnt they didnt do me harm, and they didnt wish me harm. And i managed to get a masters degree at chapel hill without much fanfare. Yeah. The faculty and the Academic Experience what was your how would you evaluate and measure that . Dr. Terry oh, i took a class with c. Hugh holman. Remember c. Hugh holman . Holmans handbook to english literature, you know. I was fortunate to have a class with him. He was a brilliant man, a charming man, and a gentleman. My faculty members there were gentlemen, and i didnt have a woman. Isnt that interesting . I just thought about that. I didnt have there was not one course that i took there i was only there to get the masters. Im just going to tell you. I didnt want to stay. I had to go to work after the masters. Id been in school too long. I needed to take off. I couldnt stay and go straight through. I needed to have a break, so i did. And then i went to st. Augustines college and taught for a couple of years and knew, i really did, if i was going to do this work, i really did need to get the doctorate. And so i went off to and ended up getting a doctorate at umass in amherst. Lets take just a little break here. Okay. Okay, dr. Terry, were back on after a short break, and kind of, for our last segment here, i want to ask about some of your experiences up in amherst, specifically around and theres so much. We have limited time, so ill skip past other things that would readily merit a whole separate interview, and forgive me for that. But i want to, um, i want to ask about, in 1969, the creation of the African American studies program at umassamherst, and you would, of course, direct that program for a couple of decades. Dr. Terry yeah, but not at the beginning. Not the beginning, right. You got your phd in 1974, i think, yeah. So, later you would step into that role. But that was, i think, one of two programs at the time it was created . Dr. Terry yeah. In fact, as kind of a capstone to your tenure as program or department chair, youd be one of the very first two, i think, in the first two in the nation to offer a phd in African American studies. Dr. Terry yes. So, broad theme, but im interested in kind of both the creation and the Foundation Period and how you thought about the pedagogical challenge, the frameworks, the narratives, the you know. Dr. Terry broad theme. Well, where do you want me to start . Massachusetts was it was easy in massachusetts. I think what happened in massachusetts could not have happened at other places, and ill tell you why. We had a very, very, very sympathetic administration on the campus. There were some things that had happened at and in the College Community of faculty and friends. It was an incredible assembly of people there. First of all, in 1959, the massachusetts had the umass press had come forward with the massachusetts review. Thats the College Literary magazine. Read the pages of that magazine, and its almost its eerie. Because when that magazine was launched, it was dedicated to the four young men who it referenced the four young men who had sat down at north carolinas a t university this was in 1959, when it was launched. It committed itself to being a magazine the pages of which would be readily available to black writers, to young black writers in the country as they expressed themselves and their traditions. It was an amazing thing. I did not know that. I had no way of knowing that. But the group of people who had started the massachusetts review would become my family, almost, when i got to umass. When i got to umass, there were very few black people on that campus. But by that didnt bother me by now. I was there to study to get the doctorate. I was an older woman now. Im all of 22. [laughter] im all of 22. Im seasoned. Im a grown woman now, right . So, i could i was actually, i was really, i was 25 or so when i got there. But i was able now, i think im certainly grown im able to handle this now. So, i got there and i at the same time i got there, Mike Thelwell came. And then bernard bell was there. My husbandtobe, eugene terry, was there. And we became, we black people, now, let me tell you, we were half of we were 50 of all the black people on the campus at that time. How did we get there . We got there because sterling brown, out of howard university, been sending his graduate students. We were writing to him, saying we want to go study at howard university. And he said, no, no, no, no. You dont want to study with me. You need to study if you really want to study literature, you really want to put American Literature, and you need to go study with sidney kaplan, who knows more about black American Literature and how it fits in American Literature than anybody i know. These so, he had sent us all there. Sterling had sent us all there. We used to say we were sterlings little gang of folk there. And sidney kaplan, of course, was a graduate in the graduate program there. And as soon as he got to be the head of the graduate program in the English Department as the graduate Program Director, hes the one whos going to select students and get students he had written to sterling, saying, send me students. And this is sidney had been a part of creating the massachusetts review. Now, hes the graduate Program Director in the English Department, so he says, send me some students, and we all got there to be students. And the first thing we started to be involved in, of course, was a program, not a department, a program under the aegis of the English Department. We started the you know, we started, and we would go visit the homes in the evenings of the professors and the staff people who ran the massachusetts review. It was a wonderful, wonderful place to be at that time, because politics was everything. We talked about the world. We talked about making it better. We talked about the obligation to make it better. Mike thelwell had come from the movement. He had been involved in getting the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party down in atlanta with julian bond. It was just the most amazing, amazing assemblage of people. And then, we talked about what would a Program Look Like that would infuse and here is what we always talked about. We never talked about erasing American Literature. We talked about embellishing it with the story of the African American and that contribution. And so, ours was an american story. And we wanted we thought ours would have to fulfill what was the perfect the narrative, that the narrative of the black person would be a narrative that belonged in the consideration of narrative for American Literature, what was uniquely american. We always talked about that. And then we had a program. And then, the next thing we knew, we were talking about a department. And so, we went amherst is the flagship, but the president s office was in boston. So, when we went to talk about when my colleagues went to talk about the establishment of such a thing to the president and to the board of trustees, we were never alone. We had people who were there we never were not one thing happened at umass of protest. Even when the kids were out protesting or whatever, there was never one such action that had all black kids and only black kids or only black faculty involved. So, we had a wonderful assemblage of people who were there to work with us and to stand by us and to help us with that, and so it was easy. So, i love to tell people that, if you know what was happening at cornell, what was happening all over the place, where fights were breaking out and there were all these the day that we were granted the right to establish our independent department in afroamerican studies, people kind of yawned and voted it and went on, and nobody nothing was blown up. It was a real quiet thing. And i felt kind of you know, i thought, wheres let down. We wanted there to be some protest well, if not protest, let there be some celebratory noise of some kind. But it was like, its okay. Its all right. I think, i think umass was a very special place for me. I spent a long time there in my career. I grew a lot there and got to learn so much more than i ever learned. Because where there were thresholds that i thought i couldnt and other people thought i couldnt pass at, say, a chapel hill, i was pulled across those in many ways at umass. And so, it was a really if i look back at what i, what i had done in terms of how it just worked right to be there. It just worked absolutely right. And i was able to join with people, black and white, to make sure that we had a program thats a good program, thats a program that talks about making what was existent in the ivory tower better, because it would be, it would be it would not now have to close off closets. We opened doors, and we knew that we had students who could do that. We knew that we had a country that needed to understand that and who could swallow that and grow from it. Thats what we thought. Thats what we did. And we have a Great Program at umass. And i was very, very sad to leave it. But i needed to. Just a final question. There is a nice kind of closing of the circle when you come back as provost here in 2009. Dr. Terry and ive come back as provost here. And im just interested in maybe a final thought or reflection on bennett today and how it stands in the lives of the young women who are here now and in the community. Dr. Terry its a small everything is changed. Because its when i was here, the signs were up. Blacks this way. Whites this way. Dont come in. You know, to knock down the signs sometimes leaves us not knowing what we have to do. And, if were not very careful, we can begin to think we are free, and there are no more things to be done, there are no movements to have. But there are now. There are economic considerations. And i say to the young women who come to me, who want to know, dr. Terry, whatd you do when we sat down . Did you sit down . I say, well, you know, you only can run the relay that youre in. You run the lap youre in, and then you pass it on. But when you pass it, that person doesnt get to run the lap that you ran. That laps been run. You have to run another lap. You have to run your lap. So, i say to the students here that the world now is different. Its not the same as it was, but it also is not perfect yet, and its a far way greensboro, even far way from being perfect. It doesnt have some of the problems that it had, but it has other ones, and theyve got to find them. Heres what i say to students. That you still have the obligation and the responsibility to make social justice and equality a partner with you, as you develop whatever skills you want to develop and you pursue whatever course of study you want to pursue. You have got to be the best. You have got to give your all. And youve got to have a part of it committed to giving back to the community. I think that. I think that, so i think and now, i think i go through here, and the young people have got twitter and technology. I cant stand twitter. [laughter] its so limiting, all the i dont do twitter, you know, and i try very hard to stay away from blogging and all of that. But, you know, the students have to do that, and i have to know enough about it to get through. Their world has got all of these novelties. Its also unjust in many ways and unequal in many ways. And if theyre not careful, they wont see it. So, theyve got to work really hard to do that. And i think bennett is a good place to be. I think bennett can become a haven for at least 900 little girls, to make them into big women. Thats what i work to do. And i dont plan to be here forever, to have another career, but its certainly a good thing to do on the days that i am here. Caller watching American History tv all next on the presidency, and encore from the cspan series influence and image. Polk,l hear about Sarah Margaret taylor and abigail fillmore, first ladies during the administration of Zachary Taylor and millard fillmore. Sarah polk was very up on diplomacy