Thank you, sir. Thank you very much again. Would you please share your birthday and birthplace. My birthday is may 28, 1933, in new york city. I was born in York Hospital in new york city. Yesterday was your birthday. How was it . It was wonderful. My daughter was here and one of my grandchildren was here. He came early and we went out to play golf, which was my first time playing golf, in over three years, because of the injury to my leg. Oh. The cancer in my leg. It was a very wonderful birthday. Thank you. Please tell me about your family background, the school you went to. In york city . In new york city, yes. I went to a school that is now called the Fashion Institute of technology. You are in Fashion Institute . I tried but i never worked at it at all. I cannot sew a button on now. [laughter] but, yes. Then i went into the marine corps and i was 19 years old. The war in korea was going on. It was a calling. I had always wanted to be in the military. I had cousins and uncles and a godfather that served in the military, during world war i and world war ii. So, korea was my opportunity to participate, and help. And i am glad that i did. When did you graduate high school . Uh, i did not graduate. I Left High School in 1950, and i went into the marines in 1951. Did you know anything about korea at the time . Oh yes. How . The chosen reservoir was a very, very well covered media event, in those days. The country literally was on edge, hoping that the marines could get themselves, out of the reservoir, and back to the shoreline, where they would be relatively safe. That part of the war attracted a lot of young people. Attracted, not scared them off . No. It attracted a lot of young people to come into the service. Wow. And i was very fortunate because when i got to korea, i was assigned to the company, fox Company Second batalian seventh marines. Second battalion, seventh marines. That company was very instrumental in holding the pass open, from the chinese, in order to allow the marines, to continue their march out of the encirclement. Before we go into that part of the war, i want to talk more about where did you get the basic military training . What was your specialty and so on . Paris island, south carolina, was where i attended boot camp. I later went out to camp pendleton, in route to korea, where we had our basic infantry training. I was a machine gunner. A pretty good one at that. So, when i arrived in korea, i was assigned to the machine gun platoon, of fox Company Second battalion seventh marines. What battalion . Second battalion. Second italian, seventh marine regiment. That was the company that held the pass open. As the Company Commander he received the medal of honor. Captain barber. Yes. So just being a member of the company gave a high sense of pride. And you got a swagger. For being a member of that company. Hmm hmm, must be. When did you leave korea . The ship and do you remember the month and year . I think it was february of 1952. The ship was the general wiegel. Wiegel. It took us 14 days to arrive. We went in through inchon in landing boats. You did not stop in japan . Yes we did. We stopped in how was that sail . Did you have seasick . Not at all. You are exceptional. I do not think so. Many people told me they want to die. It was not that bad. Ok. It was a long time. But it was not that rough. I never had seasickness. Let me ask you this question. In paris island, when you receive the basic military training, how many africanamericans do you see, by percentage . I have a photograph of that. I looked at it. And i am the only africanamerican in my platoon. That would have been about 120 people and i was the only africanamerican. And when we arrived in fox Company Second battalion, seventh marines, we had four or five, two of whom were killed. And three made it out. I talked with one of those yesterday. He lives in new york, on long island. That is the only other one from fox company i know of. But at the peak there was five and two got killed. Im going to ask you more questions about this in the korean war that i want to also ask your question about how you were treated in the boot camp, in parris island. I mean if you do not like the question you do not have to answer. But i really want to know and i think it is important for young generations and americans to know about those things. When i went into the marine corps, it had just been integrated a couple of years, not very many. I think integration took place in 1948. President truman ordered that all the services integrate their ranks. And so, korea was the first war that, i cannot say that. The first modernday war that, where African Americans were able to participate in combat. Both as a unit and as an individual being assigned to units. That was a significant time. So that means before the korean war, the africanamerican soldiers were not allowed to participate in the combat . Not as a unit or as individuals in the marine corps. They obviously were, every marine is a rifleman. Africanamericans were involved in some fights when the fights came to them. As, especially in the islands, when they landed during world war ii, the murray landings had to be supported by Service Units at the beach receiving supplies, sorting out supplies and moving supplies up to the front lines. Oftentimes the japanese would attack those supply units. And they had to fight. But they were not assigned fighting. They had to know how, and they did. So, on occasion, they would get shot at. And we had a dory miller, who was a sailor, get a navy cross, for his activities, on december 7, when the japanese bombed pearl harbor. Dory miller was a hero, an African American navy person. So here, integrate means africanamerican soldiers integrated into a unit official unit. And they are representing American Military units. Exactly. Exactly. Have you been singled out and being treated badly or . No. Marines are a different breed of people. And the logistics of boot camp are such that, the area from which you enlist, they get a certain number of recruits together from that area, give them a shipping date and they all meet and they all go down to parris island. Typically they stay together. So, what im saying is, when i was in boot camp, although it was in south carolina, my colleagues were all new yorkers for the most part. Ah. Different areas of new york, but all from new york city. So there a different understanding of human beings, from new york, that there was in the deep south. That is what nyc and americans nyc represents american politics, even now. Thats right. The last melting pot we have in this country. Please tell me about the senior first thought when you landed in inchon. How is korea . How was landscape . How was city . How is people . There were no high buildings. We did not see people. We landed by landing craft, wading up to the beach and water up to our hips. When we got to the beach we were trucked out and away. I think we went up to kimpo. Initially, by truck. From there, to one of those mountains. One of those. [laughter] how was people . What did you feel about the Korean People when you saw them . I did not see very many Korean People. The Korean People we saw were what we called kfcs, the Korean Service corps. That was the extent of it. I was able to, i was chosen to be a part of the honor guard, that met and protected president eisenhower, when he came over. So i did get to see vietnamese people, no interaction. We were about business. In late 1952. It was before elections and he was elected in 1952. Oh, right, right, right. So you took truck to kimpo. And you saw those. Was it completely devastated . Not completely, but certainly nothing like now. There was not any high buildings at all. People are, i suppose, not living in, you know, had you imagined it would be in a country you never knew before . You knew that because, you knew korea because of the battle but before that you did not know it, right . What were you thinking at that time . Getting home alive was the prevailing thought. You had to help your buddies. You watch your buddys back and they watch your back and you any regret . No, no, no. I think of the recent wars that the United States has involved itself in. I think the korean war was the one that produced the best results, for a number of reasons. The invasion from the north was initially defended by the people of, the Korean People of the south. And so, americans went in, and others, United Nations went in, to help the Korean People of the south. Help themselves. And they did. Then after the war was over, the economic buildup of korea was just astounding. Tell me about your typical day of your mission . What was the situation . Did you move from kimpo to one of those mountains . And moving all around all the time . Or did you get stationed at one camp . And tell me about your typical day. Show we were on the line typically for 3540 days at a time. The trench line. We have started the trench line warfare. So it was building trench lines and fighting. Hmm mmm. What was it like on those 83 days you are up . The 83 days it was summertime, late 1952. Summer or autumn or winter . Was it hot . Yes it was warm, it was in the autumn. A piece of it was winter, though. Let me think of it. No, it was warm. It was into the autumn. And so it was not really hot. It was hot at the beginning because it was across the summer. We got off the line, just before thanksgiving. We did have thanksgiving in the rear, after having been on the line for 83 days. They took us off her thanksgiving, and we went back up on december 24. S were there any severe battles, engagement with the chinese, at the time that you stayed at the front for 83 days . Yes. Tell me about the typical day and describe the scene. The typical day because we were static, and a trench line, we would receive lots of artillery fire or mortar fire during the day, and sometimes during the night as well, mortar fire. Could not come out of the trench line without drawing sniper fire. That is scary. It is war, you do what you do. Described the day, so that we all know how you lived that day. You would be up most of the night. On watch, to be certain to be aware of any movement in front of your position. And you would be awake and aware of any patrols of our own. If you are not on the patrol yourself, you would be aware of other patrols out there. But being in machine guns as i was, the rifle squad that was assigned to have a patrol, what choose their machine gun personnel, to go along with them. When you are on patrol, machine gunners going with them . Yes. Yes. Was it heavy to move around . It is what we do. It was heavy. Oh. So . We would carry it, and have maybe one or two ammunition carriers. And that would last all of the dark hours. You would go out at dusk, and the sun went down just at dusk. And he was start out into a defined patrol route, where you are going. And sometimes you run into chinese that are doing the same thing, patrolling. And you might have a firefight. Then you have to begin calling on your battle buddies to send out illumination, light, or mortars, or whatever the situation called for, to get back, in order to get back to the line. How close were you with the chinese . Worstcase . Worstcase, one of the hills they came, this was an outpost. We got into, they attacked. The chinese attacked our outpost. We were able to hold them for a while. But somewhere there is a breach. And they got into our first two sets of trenches. One near the base of the hill and another a little higher on the hill. And the chinese got into the hill. So we had pretty close, i do not know, 50 yards or so. Some people had hand to hand combat because they had climbed up the hill and into our trench line. And some people were into real hand to hand. I did not get into that. Were you the only africanamerican in that 83 days . There were three of us. A young man from chicago and another young fellow from new jersey. Both of them were killed. On that line, as a matter fact. On that 83 dateline two of them were killed on that 83day line, two of them were killed. How many of them total in that 83 days in the trench . Total marines . Yes. We probably had nearly 300 or so. You had a rifle company, you had special weapons. Like, in those days we had require less rifles attached to you. So the company was probably 300 men. How good a machine gunner where you . I was the best. Meaning . I was the best. There was a time when night when we had a patrol out. And the route that they were taking was to cross over a dike in the rice paddy and they had to go up and over and we had done that many times. And the way you cross is you send a few people over, and then another few go. Well, the chinese have been watching us do that for i while. And so, this particular night, they had a machine gun of their own set up on top of the dike. And when we had split the squad so that half was across the dike and the other half was waiting to get across, they turned loose a barrage of fire, and ambushed the squad. Happily, those that were hit were not, they were just wounded, they were not killed. The proximity, the closeness of the chinese machine gun and our own marines, it was too close to send mortar fire or artillery fire. You did not know if you would hit your own people. And our people were pinned down. They could not raise their heads without being shot at. And at the time, this was relatively early in the war, we were still carrying radios that had wire. Not wireless. You had a big wire pack on your back and you carried it to wherever you went on patrol. Well, i was not out with them but i was on the radio. And i could hear what was going on. And when wewhen the squad leader ruled out any artillery or mortar fire because of the proximity, i got on the phone and said, that i had a map for my machine gun targets that were calibrated on my machinegun. I was a 50 caliber machine gun. The exact spot where the chinese machine gun was, was on my target map. And i could shoot it. The squad leader said shoot. Not the captain on the line. I wanted to talk to the people out there, and i did talk to the people out there. He said shoot and i did. And i was able to help them, by wiping out that machinegun nest. I have a friend, who now lives in houston, who was on that patrol, and right nearby the machine gun. He tells me this story. He saw one of my tracers. A tracer is a bullet that lights up. He saw that tracer hit one of the chinese, because all of the bullets do not light up, just some. I think every fifth lights up, the rest are dark and you cannot see them. Where did you sleep . We slept on rails. We have these long iron polls that were used for a lot of things. To hold up sandbags in the trenches, to put over your bunker for a roof. We use them for beds. So we slept on iron, and the bunkers. We had two kinds of bunkers, a sleeping bunker and a fighting bunker. Ok. A fighting bunker had apertures so you could see out and shoot. The sleeping bunkers were closed all around except for an entrance. Sometimes you had to entrances so you would have a way to get out, if one is blocked, you would have two of them. So we slept. In the winter of 1953, we finally got boots that were insulated. Finally. In fact they were so good your feet would sweat, a lot, during the day. You would relieve each other to go back, not too far behind the line, and have a hot meal. Who cooked for you . Cooks. And who brought it to you . Kfc . The same marines. We have containers that allow for food to be carried. They can cook it wherever and set up the kitchen stoves. And very efficient, very efficient. What was on the menu for the hot meal . It could be scrambled eggs and bacon, for the hot meal. You did not get a hot evening meal. And we had rations. Were you scared . Always. Yeah, always. Always . Yeah, but you are ready for it. You do not let fear take off your body. Fear and war makes you a member what you are taught and do the things you are taught to do, because they are effective. They work. But you have to be fearful. It does not stop you from doing your job, kitchen not stop you from doing your job. You might even do it better. Did you know why you were there and fighting for what . Yes, oh, yes. It was very wellpublicized in the newspapers here, as to why the war started, with the invasion. Did you have a chance to write letters back to your family . Yes. Yes. Yah, and they wrote. My mother used to send me little boxes of tea. I was a tea drinker and did not like coffee. She would send me teabags. The army would have booze rations. But when you can back off the line you would get two cans a day or something. Did you send money back home . Perhaps, no, we got paid in script, we do not get american dollars. So they cannot spend it back here. I really dont know. Most of the veterans, they sent it. And parents put it into the bank. Allotments. That is probably what i did, i do not really remember. You did not gamble or go shopping . [laughter] no, i did not gamble and shopping was not heard of. Like in vietnam, shopping was in every corner almost. But there was no shopping in those mountains. When did you leave korea . That was a 1953. It was after the winter, during the spring or summer. What was the most difficult thing that you remember, of your service in the korean war, or painful, what was it . The most painful thing was having to go down to the tent and identify that young man that i had told you was killed because of bullets in his ankle, his ankle and he died of shock. I went down to the tent to identify him. After they brought him in, they have a big tent with all of the killed. There were a number killed that day. That night, rather. That was probably the most painful. He was such a nice young man and i think it was his first patrol too. Yes, i think it was. Ooh. Yeah. You mentioned about, what good did actually come out of the korean war and your service there . As a simultaneous achievement of Economic Development and democratization in korea. Yes. Im very happy to see the Economic Development. Yes, you mentioned about it. Looking back on those years of your service and the korean war, what is korea to you now . How do you see it . How do put all of these things into perspective . You never knew about korea. You are dragged into it. You fought there. You saw a lot of things that you do not want to remember. And you did not think korea would be like this now, and now you see it, all of those things. Howd you put it into perspective . Well i am so happy we were afforded an opportunity to go back, and see it. Inchon, seoul, it was it was truly a lifelifting experience. Most of the bad memories, if not all, have been replaced in me, now, with the goodness. There are things that happen during wars that you carry with you for a while, because youre wondering, the whole time in the back of your mind, is this worth it . And then, to be fortunate enough to see that, yes it was worth it. That is, that is a rare experience, a rare opportunity. That im just so happy, that i was able to do that. I never expected to be able to go back and see the country built up so well. Was it last year . Last year, last september 11th. When i want back, it was a not a war scene, it was a scene of well executed urban development. Transportation development, avionics, it was a delight. No traces of the war, physical traces. There are probably a lot of emotional traces of the war left and people. But the physical traces were so wonderful. A lot of better things. Yeah. Where were there any discrimination you felt during your service in korea . No, certain that we were not among the people as much as maybe some other wars were. We were on mountain to mountain. There is no time and room for these things. No, no. The people that we saw that were korean were kfc, the Korean Service corps. And once in a while we would see soldiers, marines, the Korean Marines were with us. I do not remember on which mountain. They tied into us. By the way, where were you . Do remember the name of the camp . I do not know. It was the army. Pun dac i remember. Which was not too far from panmunjom. Then kimpo early. We zipped through inchon. And i went back down to seoul for eisenhowers visit to korea. You are in the honor guard . Honor guard, for him, which was a good thing because i got a brandnew pair of boots. [laughter] they were not insulated boots, but at least they were boots. The marine corps wore, they came up to here and then you had leggings. Are you familiar with leggings . Oh yes. That is what we had. And you got the clean uniform . [laughter] a brandnew uniform, it was wonderful. How was ike . I never got to really see him at all. We were just in a truck behind wherever the cowboy was going. Let me ask this question, how did your service during the korean war, affect your life after you returned from korea . I stayed in the marine corps for 20 years so when i came back i was assigned to camp lejeune, and then to lakehurst, new jersey. The scars of the war were shared with a lot of people who knew or who were there, or, we were all in the same profession. Those were the people that i was around. Vietnam, i was assigned to flint, as a recruiter for the reserves. And i met this congressman rigell, and that was in 1966. And he and i stayed in contact with one another. So, as i was going over for my third tour, and vietnam, he called and offered me a job. If i got out. And i was retiring, so i did accept the job. And went back. I was his principal aide in the city of flint for 12 years. Hello, i am fortunate enough to be this mans wife for 49 years. Read . Right . It goes so fast. We got married shortly after his service in vienna. Did he talk to about his service in the korean war . Not very much at all. A little bit. I knew about the trenches and about the cold. But i remember vividly, when he had left the corps, and we lived in detroit at the time. He had already been mayor, and we were going about our regular lives and he got a phone call. He hung up the phone and he says, we have to make a trip to new orleans. And i said what . He said this guy was in korea with me. Theyre having a reunion and i have to go to it. I turned to him and said jim, it has been so long ago, you do not know these people. You do not know any of them, they are different and you are different. He says, we are going. And i just thought, what a waste, what a waste. We walked in the hotel, and we do not even take five steps. And there are eight people running toward him. Just calling his name and hugging him. So i said, i did not know what i was talking about. I just did not understand. [laughter] i did not know. Your sure you did not know . I did not know. They just bonded. And we met with them annually, regularly. Some of them have died. One of his closest buddies that was in that reunion, we made a point to visit him three times as he was dying. He left in las vegas at the time. We would make a trip to las vegas, just got his home. And go to the hospital, and spent a nice weekend with him. It was a nice going away and we hear from his wife every year now. And she has come to visit us. The bonding that occurred in korea, has been a lifetime for him. I talked to my squad leaders wife. My squad leader died 20 years ago. I talked to his wife yesterday. I spoke to a friend up in idaho, who was a rifleman, at that time, also yesterday. They all call me,mabecause they say i used to take care of them. I would be the one to take care of them. So they all call me, ma, still today. Even the wives. When i call the house and the wife answers the phone, she will say, hello, ma sharp. [laughter] we did not meet until years after korea. I think you had been back at least 10 years before we met each other. And he went back to korea with him, last year . Yes. So the things you heard from him about korea 60 years ago and the one you saw, what did you see . Unbelievable. Korea was wonderful. The people were great, are great. It has not been 12 months since we did that trip. I like to walk and i would leave the hotel and walk for exercise. I got smiles and greetings. We cannot communicate with each other, but you could feel the warmth and the caring. The beauty of the country is unbelievable. Next on American History tv, paul talks about his book, the saboteur, the aristocrat who became the nazis most daring commando. We hear about the world of what Robert Mueller russia, this is provided by the National World War Ii Museum in new orleans. Welcome to louisiana more memorial pavilion, named after the greatest city in the union, according to me. Also to those of us on the live stream we welcome you as always. My name i
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