Transcripts For CSPAN3 Korean War 70th Anniversary 20240712

Two years ago at seoul a United Nations supervised free elections south of the 38th parallel and the republic of korea, a sovereign democratic nation, was born. Its president was sing mull ri. In may 1950, the citizens of this young republic went to the polls to choose their government under their democratic constitution. Even as the citizens of the korean republic voted in free elections, the north korean communist leaders were boasting of their intention to unify the country by force. And this was their target. A partly mountainous peninsula and the 20 million peaceloving citizens of the republic of korea. The attack by the north korean communists came suddenly and without warning. The heroic Republic Army faced by superior forces with the advantages of deception and surprise rallied it the defense of the republic improvising quickly to meet the unprovoked aggression, korean republic troops were against the invaders. Against a prepared enemy armed with modern tanks, planes and guns the republic troops were ill equipped to meet the onslaught. Back in the United States an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council is called. Ambassador chang of the republic of korea heard the general say the present situation is a serious one and a threat to international peace. The Security Council is, mr. President , in my opinion, a competent organization to deal with it. I consider it the duty of the Security Council to take steps necessary to reestablish peace in that area. A vote on the United States demand that the North Koreans halt their aggression is carried 90 with the soviet union absent. In korea the saddest victims by the communist north korean puppets are women and children. This is not new. These tragic and bewildered refugees are always the first fruit of wanton aggression. Charles hanley is joining us from naples, florida. He is a former Ap International desk special correspondent and out with a new book ghost flames life and death in a hidden war korea 1950 to 1953. Thank you for being with us here on cspan and on cspan3s American History tv. Thank you, steve. Very good to be with you. The historical significance of the korean war as we said often being viewed as the forgotten war, what is it 70 years later . Well, i think we can see it simply in the tension that still exists on the Korean Peninsula, the Nuclear Crisis. But you mentioned it was sometimes called the forgotten war, and it basically was because it was an indecisive conflict in a faroff place. It came just five years after the good war, the great war, world war ii. And then eventually it was overshadowed by the vietnam war. But when we look back we can see this was a watershed moment in 20th century history because it militarized the cold war between the communists and capitalist worlds and it also was the first undeclared war by the United States in its history. Of course, thats all we have had since. It remains the last conflict between great powers, in this case america and china, and with soviet help on the chinese north korean side, and it really made permanently militarized the United States within just a couple of years. The Defense Budget quadrupled in the early 50s as the war was being fought and, in essence, the pentagon never looked back after that. But we can see today, as i said, in the Nuclear Crisis this is really rooted in that war because the United States threatened in various ways openly and secretly through backchannels to use Nuclear Weapons against the North Koreans, against the chinese. So, as a result, obviously china realized it needed its own deterrence and went to work on it, and by 1964 the chinese had a nuclear weapon, and now we can see the North Koreans as well, who suffered such tremendous devastation during the korean war, they now have their own Nuclear Arsenal as well, which they consider a deterrent against another devastating conflict with the u. S. We should point out we have a line set aside for those of you who are veterans of the korean war. Are you saying that the underlying issue in the conflict 70 years ago was the cold war tensions that resulted in the war . Yes. Of course, at the end of world war ii, korea, which was a japanese colony, was divided by the soviet occupation, American Occupation in the north and south. Consequently, they each followed the virgin paths. Communists an capitalists. And then, although in 45, in december of 45, washington and moscow reached what was called the moscow agreement to reunify the koreas within five years, their bickering and hostility between the two great powers doomed that to failure by 1948. The whole idea had been dropped and the two south and north declared themselves independent nations. And so, yes, we can find the root of the korean war very directly in this hostility between soviet union and the United States. Your upcoming book ghost flames life and death and the hidden war looking at korea 19501953, you personalize those on the front lines including citizens in the war. Walk us through what you learned. What i learned was more than i already knew. I had been working on this as a journalist for many years. But i learned even more about the complete devastation of two societies, not just north korea, which suffered such tremendous bombardment, but also south korea, with the back and forth of the war. And my characters, the featured individuals, and these are real people, of course, and real experiences, but i call them characters, my characters witness much of the horror of the war. Some of the worst of it from the atrocities to the error of bombardment in north korea and in particular. So this is a way i thought to bring home to the reader the real meaning of any war, and this war in particular, which is so neglected, it seems, on the book shelves in america and in particular. So i have characters ranging from a little a northern refugee girl in seoul, a 10yearold girl, who opens the book, in effect, awakening to the start of the war on through various soldiers and civilians. Even an american who runs a clinic for refugees in south korea during the war on up to people at the top. General matthew ridgeway, who ended up fairly early on as overall commander on the American South korean side, and a general of china who was the overall commander from 1950 onward on the chinese north korean side. These we follow i follow their experiences through the war and through them we get a good big picture, overview of the strategy and the conduct of the war. Meantime, many of my ordinary people are going through these battles, are pleading as refugees, are under from american airplanes and such. Our guest has one the Pulitzer Prize for his reporting with Tthe Associated press. What specifically event led to the initial conflict . Well, of course, there was an invasion on june 25, 1950. I believe it was seven north korean divisions coming across the 38th parallel. But there had been skirmishing along the 38th parallel separation line for a couple of years before that. Some of it pretty serious. And so when the war broke out on june 25, that morning, a rainy morning in korea, many people in the south thought, well, we hope this is just another skirmish. Well, it turned out to be a fullscale invasion. And actually on the northern side the people in north korea were told that south korea had attacked. And this fiction, it is still maintained bit North Koreans officially in their museums and such. But it was a surprise attack and there was a failure on the south korean and american side, an intelligence failure to not detect that these movements of troops across the north of the 38th parallel was the preparation for an invasion. The North Koreans had very cleverly staged a socalled maneuver which was actually a hoax. The movements were not a maneuver, not a practice, their movements, but rather a fullscale invasion. Lets get to your phone calls. Bo is first up joining us from sylvester, georgia. Good morning. Welcome to the conversation. Caller thank you. I had a relative that served on the lafi during the battle woo son, which was the longest artillery dual i believe in naval history. The first question i have is that president truman called it a Police Action even though it was undeclared, and the second question i have is that the armistice ended the fighting on the peninsula in 1953, but there has been no formal treaty. To many of the North Koreans the war has never been forgotten even though we have forgotten the war itself in a lot of American History. Thank you. Bo, thank you. Two very important points. Yeah. Of course, it is a war, as i call it a war on hold. There has been no peace treaty. There was to be a political settlement. This was called for within the original armistice agreement in july of 1953 that there would be a political conference that would reunify the two koreas. But the hostilities were so great that by 1954 the meetings took place in 54 in geneva and it did not go very far. I think it lasted two or three months and finally the United States walked out because of the disagreements over who would oversee elections and such. The United States proposed that the United Nations oversee the elections, but of course the United Nations was actually considered by the north to be a belligerent in the war. The Security Council having adopted resolutions urging countries to provide aid to south korea. In other words, it took sides in the war. And that was something the North Koreans did not abide. They proposed, they and the soviets proposed and the chinese proposed a neutral, a commission of neutral nations, but the americans rejected that. And so it ended in failure and we now continue to have a war on hold. No peace treaty. No war, no peace. And im sorry. The first question related to . Basically, there has not been a ceasefire, a formal agreement between the u. S. And north korea. The caller brought up the undeclared aspect, the Police Station action. And this is interesting. As a journalist, i see this happen so often. That was raised in a question by a journalist to president truman. Would you consider it well, say a Police Action . And truman said, yes, okay. He went along with it. But this was not his formulation initially. And this was very early on when there was some thought in washington at least that the entry of the United States forces into a war would end it pretty quickly and it woul operation. But that proved to be not true. We see it went on for three years at a tremendous cost. You may have mentioned, steve, the cost, the casualty toll for the americans, which was over 36,0000 dead. But the total dead for the others involved were just tremendous. And very indefinite. Its believed that between 200 and 400,000 south korean troops and the same number of north korean troops were killed. And even more chinese were killed in that war. Approximately a halfmillion. But the real toll was on the civilians in north and south korea, and its believed that probably a million on each side, north and south, were killed during that war. So its one of the, i think it is still considered the war with the most costly casualty toll of any that america has fought. In other words, the portion of the total death toll. We are looking back at the start of the korean war in 1950, 70 years ago on cspan and cspan3s American History tv. Sam is up from hillsdale, michigan. Good morning. Caller hi. I was reading and i got so mad toward the end of it that i had to quit reading it because it seemed to me that the Truman Administration was just clicking its tongue and shaking its head watching mcarthurs crazy behavior over there. Why didnt somebody do something about that man . Thank you, sam. To his point, maybe a broader question, too, some of the key players involved in this conflict. Charles hanley . Yes. The key player, you are asking, i am sorry, steve, the key players . He mentioned general mcarthur. I was going to mention him and some of the other key figures in the conflict. Yes. Well, on mcarthur, mcarthurs behavior really came to the fore during the war itself and not leading up to it. And during the war he was, general mcarthur was the overall commander. And so he was the one who ordered troops in after getting the okay from truman in an undeclared war. Ordered the troops into korea. And had a very hard time, of course, quickly, to summarize the early back and forth seesawing of the war. The north korean invasion pushed the south korean army and the troops there into the southeastern quadrant of south korea, which became known as the pew son perimeter. The defense line. And then later in september, september 15, 1950, mcarthur landed a huge Amphibious Force at inchon, west of seoul, and that effectively cut off the North Koreans in the south from their resupply. At the same time the american and south Korean Forces in the south broke out from their p uso n perimeter and drove the north Korean Forces north. The North Koreans were very weakened at that point because of their supply line. And then mcarthur sent his forces across the 38th parallel capturing pyongyang and all the way on to the chinese border. Now, the directives from the joint chiefs of staff in washington were that you should not send american troops to the chinese border because the chinese would consider that a threat. But he disobeyed that. And the whole u. N. Command moved towards the border and some reach the border and thats when the chinese the disaster for the americans. At the same time, mcarthur made a strategic error in splitting his forces up east coast and west coast of north korea and so the chinese could pick off the two forces more easily that way. And their attacks were a great surprise to mcarthur and his generals. They went into essentially a headlong retreat, all the way back to seoul and then eventually even south of seoul. But the real thing that got to president truman about mcarthur was that he was speaking out geostrategicly, not just militarily, but he kept on pushing for a wider war against china, attacking the chinese bases, attacking china itself, and even mustering troops from taiwan, the Chinese Nationalist troops that had fled to taiwan, getting them to reinvade china to start a second front in the war. Now, my character matt ridgeway, general ridgeway, one of the featured individuals in my book, he could see early on that mcarthur was making a great strategic mistake on the ground in north korea, and also he understood when he was told he was taking over for mcarthur, mcarthur had been fired, and ridgeway would lead the pentagon and go to tokyo sorry, ridgeway already in korea. He was in command of the 8th army, but he would go to tokyo. Ridgeway knew that mcarthurs ideas were mistaken. The American People would not stand for another global war this time against communism. And truman simply became time patie impatient with mcarthurs insubordination and speaking out publicly on geopolitical matters, and so he fired him. We welcome our cspan radio audience, also those listening on sirius xm channel 124 every sunday morning. Charles hanley is a Pulitzer Prizewinning writer for the associated press. His new book, as we look back at the korean war. Bob next in arlington, texas. Good morning. Good morning. Steve. Its been a long time. Well, my brother got killed over there. 1952, august 5th. And what bothers petme the most the fact that most people over here these days dont know that china was the biggest part of why we lost that war. We still disrespect it. The second thing is that on memorial day everybody over here says happy memorial day. Well, it aint very happy for me. I tell you that. The second thing is that guys like Colin Kaepernick that disrespect the flag really burns it. I tell you what. That is the lowest point we could ever respect the honor of the people who died. Thats what memorial day is all about. But you get a guy like Colin Kaepernick or these other celebrities and whatever. Well, this is our flag and they are disrespecting it. And i would love to disrespect one of their relatives in the same way. Hey, bob, tell us about your brother. What happened . Well, he waited to get drafted. And he was ready to come home. Evidently, a sniper got him. He was listen, the 5th regimental combat team, and effortly he was behind the lines. But they had the snipers out there just picking people off right and left. He had been promised to be able to come home. He had already served his time. They kept promoting him. He got promoted. They didnt know how to manage the peace. Everything was quiet. Everybody was waiting for the next move. How old was he when he passed away . 22. Hey, bob, thank you for the call. Thank you for sharing your story. And im very sorry to hear about your loss, and obviously, it stays with you all your life. And your mention of china, of course, as i noted earlier, there were possibly as many as 600,000 chinese soldiers lost in that war, and they were the deciding factor in the war. They saved north korea. Otherwise, we would have a unified korea under beginning with the dictatorship back in the 50s. But the chinese still view that war as the great victory, first of all, because they saved north korea. And they have a very close they paid close attention to the history of that particular war. In fact, one of my characters, as i mentioned, who was the overall commander of the chinese general who was the overall commander for the communists, and soon after he entered the war zone and set up a headquarters he had now, their eldest son on his staff. He was a russian translator. And soon after the chinese army entered north korea, the headquarters would detach and general pung had just left his cabin and for some reason mao had returned to the cabin for something and warplanes, american planes came in and nepalmed an area of the headquarters and incinerated and killed mao. So maos son, whom some considered a potential successor, i suppose, is buried in north korea and is honored on their memorial day, so to speak. So the connection between china and north korea is quite close. They have their animosities for various reasons, including the nuclear standoff, but the Chinese People and the north Korean People recognize that they were relationship is deep and long. Our guest is joining us from naples, florida. Our next caller is from key biscayne, florida. Bill, good morning. Caller good morning to you. Its a privilege to talk to mr. Hanley. My question is sort of two parts. How did the north and south korea originally become separated . As to distinct countries . And my the second part is, how does the or do you think that north korea thinks in terms of what drives them today is not sort of selfpreservation, but the desire to funify the peninsula . Thank you. First on the division between north and south korea along the 30th parallel, Charles Hanley . Yes. As i noted earlier, there was an agreement between the United States and soviet union to reunify the koreas after they occupied separate zones after the end of world war ii, north and south. But the discussions fell apart after a couple of years because of their growing animosity over so many other matters, particularly in europe. And so they just simply went ahead in mentoring and fostering the creation of separate governments. In 1948, first the republic of korea was declared in seoul and then later in 48 the democratic peoples republic of korea was declared in pyongyang, that is in north korea. As far as the attitudes towards reunification, i can say the Korean People are very, lets say, nationalistic, very proud of their culture, their history, their unity over centuries. In fact, in 1950, this was the first time for in about a millennium, it had been unified for a thousand years, essentially, before the americans and the soviets brought about this disastrous war. And so i think in their heart of hearts all koreans would love to see reunification. But i know in the south there are misgivings because of the great burden that the south would have to undertake if there were to be reunification in supporting a very impoverished north korea and very politically troubled north korea. As far as the north korean attitude, officially they consider themselves the legitimate government of all of korea, and people have been prop begandized along those lines all their lives. And so they, im sure, just think its their rightful place to be reunified and to be the rulers of korea. The Korean War Legacy Foundation putting together a series of conversations with those who are on the front lines of the battle between 1950 and 19d 53. Among them allen clark. Here is part of his story. First off is the field jacket. Yeah. And it has the hood on the back that can zip off or button off and its real thick. Right. And the other one is a godsend that we had it. Its an overcoat. It has an insert, which is london fog. And everybody had one of these and everybody wore them. You slept in them. You wore them and you were lucky to have one. Right. In addition to that, we had a wool scarf, which was wonderful because you could put it around your face in that wind, which was really cold. You could put it under your helmet and have your eyes out, and that was wonderful. And one place we were, the wind was blowing like crazy. This was, we were out near the bridge that was blowing and we were communicate being their headquarters. As i stood there with the wind blowing, and it was at that time, it was 42 degrees below zero. Wow. And the wind was blowing like crazy. And if i faced the wind, in a length of time i couldnt close my eyes. Thats allen clark reflecting on what he remembers from the war in korea 70 years ago. Back to your phone calls. Al is joining us from ithaca, new york. Good morning. Krifrmt go caller good morning. Thanks for the program and your guest. You have got two questions. One is the, if he could dwell perhaps, even though his book starts in 1950, if he could deal a little bit more of the list of the korean resistance to the Japanese Occupation that started in 1905, and also the establishment of the regovernment in the south. From what i understand, that the Korean Independence Movement was declared a capital or declared a party very early in september of 1945, and the u. S. Sort of instituted or made the regovernment come into existence. Thanks for your research and interest. Al, thank you. To his first point, he really goes back to the start of the century. Well, history is very interesting, of course, steven. You know. And in 1905 there was a settlement of the japanese war in which Teddy Roosevelt played a mediating role. As part of those agreements there was a secret agreement between the United States and japan in which the United States would acknowledge the japanese sovereignty over korea, the entire Korean Peninsula, of course. In exchange, the japanese would not interfere with the american role in the philippines. And the japanese very quickly turned this into a colonial situation. They declared that they basically annexed korea. Declared it a colony and virtually part of japan and even tried to impose and did impose the japanese language. It required all koreans to pick japanese names and it became a very hated colonial power over korea. The caller is correct that there was some resistance to this, some armed resistance, but it never amounted to much. Some armed resistance, but it never amounted to much. In 1919, there was a fairly peaceful protest that broke out, although there was some militarization as well, but they were crushed very ruthlessly by the japanese. So the resistance ultimately gravitated toward manchuria and the Russian Far East where there were many ethnic koreans in that region north of korea itself, in manchuria and china and the Russian Far East. And they were organized eventually as a Guerilla Force in various ways. Either fighting with the chinese communists against the japanese and the Chinese Nationalists or, and this is where sun got his training, as part of a russianled, russiantrained guerilla unit in the soviet far east. That was infiltrating japanese controlled manchuria and carrying out sabotage and such. This is where kim ilsung grew into the communist military strongman that he became. And so this man also established a dichotomy between people in the south and the caller is correct that the people in the south tried to form a koreawide or at least southwide Independence Movement and even a structure for government, but the American Occupation force simply eliminated that. And in fact, there was a Korean Workers Party in the south, the communist party, that was outlawed, made illegal by the american commander in the south. So theres a deeper history than simply what happened in 45 with the division by the soviets and the americans. As with everything, the roots run much deeper than that. You know, steve, i didnt mention the subtitle to my book, which is life and death in a hidden war, korea 19501953. The title being ghost flames. But this is really a key part of what i tried to pretend, and that is the hidden aspects of the korean war. Many of which did not come to light for a half century. This involves mass political executions in the south. It had several aspects to it, but the worst of it all did not come out until after the year 2000, really. And between 2005 and 2010, a true american Conciliation Commission did some very deep investigations into what happened in 1950, and what happened was that the government had jailed tens and tens of thousands of Political Prisoners, and when the war broke out, when north korea invaded, the military police and the civilian police simply took these people out in areas, had them dig their own mass graves, and then executed them by the thousands and thousands. And one of my characters, one of my featured individuals, is a british journalist, a british communist journalist, of the daily worker, the london daily worker. And he was the first outsider to happen upon while traveling with the north korean army deeper into south korea, he was led to these mass graves and reported the killing of thousands of Political Prisoners by the government. In fact, he reported that american officers were present and u. S. Army trucks were used and u. S. Army drivers, Trucking People out to the killing fields. His report in the daily worker, the london daily worker, was then denounced as an atrocity fabrication by the u. S. Embassy in london. And no western reporter, so to speak, noncommunist western reporter, ever followed up on this. It wasnt until the year 2000 it turned out that the u. S. Army officers at the scene of this one mass killing, and there were many, many, all over south korea, had taken photographs and sent them back to the pentagon, and they were classified secret and kept that way for a half century. Until finally, a researcher had them declassified. And allen liningtons denounced reporting turned out to be true. And there are other hidden aspects of the war that ghost flames goes into because some of my characters have actually witnessed or were caught up in these atrocities. One is a woman, a young mother who lost her two children, killed by a regiment in late july of 1950, and we follow her through that ordeal. She was badly wounded. And then through the rest of the war, as she tries to she and her husband have to fend for themselves through the war, and the husband begins his quest to find out who killed hundreds of refugees. There were orders that colleagues of mine turned up at the national archives, orders for u. S. Air force, for example, to refugee colonies approaching u. S. Military lines in south korea. And orders such as the division commander, commander of the first calgary division, telling his troops that the refugees are and the colonel in his division ordering his troops to shoot refugees coming across the river, which was the defense line. So there were mass killings of refugees and civilians, by Ground Forces and by aerial strafing, in south korea as well. Well never know how many, but my characters, the little girl, the northern refugee in seoul with her mother, her widowed mother, theyre caught in one of these strafings on the road where the girl sees her first People Killed in the war by an american aircraft. Simply randomly strafing civilians along the road outside seoul. And so the book, i hope, will bring home in very real terms, because of the human dimension of it all, real people who the reader gets to know, will bring home, i think, better than ever to american readers the true horrors of the korean war. Charles hanley, let me jump in. We have lot of callers who still want to chat with you, but quickly, who was sigmund reed, the president of the republic of korea . Sigmund ri was a well educated christian korean. Actually born in north korea outside pyongyang, who early on in the japanese colonial error, went in and agitated for decades for korean independence from japan. In fact, he was at the conference at the end of world war i, agitated for korean independence. But of course, the japanese were allies in that war, allies of the western power, the victorious powers in world war i, so he got nowhere with that. And then, the subsequent years, he lobbied in washington for korean independence all through world war ii, and then when the two koreas when korea was divided into two nations, he had been known to the washington establishment, and the cia in particular, wanted him in installed as the president of the new south korea. So macarthur, General Macarthur in tokyo flew him over in a plane to take over in south korea, but he was very impetuous and turned out very ruthless leader. And became very unpopular with the people who had to work with him, the politicians and members of the national assembly. Its interesting that there was an election just before the north korean invasion. An election in south korea, that put the opposition in power i the national assembly, and they would have stripped rhee of some of his power. But the invasion in effect saved rhee. And rhee maintained a lot of popular popularity among the people. Because of his insistence on total reunification. And late in the war, as the americans beginning in mid1951, the americans were negotiating for an armistice with the chinese and the North Koreans. By 1953, rhee was so furious over this impending armistice that he began pulling stunts that would try to sabotage the talks. For example, freeing thousands of north korean prisoners in the south who declared they wanted to stay in the south, and this put fury in the northerners and chinese. So rhee was a very difficult person for the americans to deal with, but in the end, he had to acquiesce. Our guest is also the coauthor of the book the bridge at no gun ri, a hidden nightmare from the korean war. Our next caller is a veteran of the war. Herman is joining us from baltimore. Thank you for waiting. Go ahead with your question or comment. Caller im 89 years old. I was in korea for the last three months of the war. I was in the signal corps and the intercept Radio Operator about ten miles behind the line. One of the things i remember is that i know also i was stationed right alongside the highway leading north. All day long, fresh troops were being trucked north. And all night long, it was ambulances coming south that i do remember. My two questions and i wasnt close enough to the line to be shot at, but i could see the flashes in the sky and hear the rumble from, i guess, the bombing and the artillery. My first question is, what was the relationship between north and south korea before the invasion . And you did just talk about the syngman rhee dictatorship. What role did he play in maybe having the invasion get started . Hey, herman. Can you stay on the line . Well get a response, but i want to follow up with you. Can you be with us for a moment or two . Well get a response. Herman, please stay on the line. Charles hanley. As far as syngman rhee, its interesting. One of my characters was a north korean general. He was the operations chief in the north korean army. We followed him, the reader follows him through the war. And he learned late in the war about the genesis of the war. He learned from an old comrade of his who happened to be ilsungs russian interpreter, and he was told that in march of 49, ilsung went to moscow and proposed to josef stalin, who of course was the sponsor of the communist nations, the chinese communists and North Koreans and others, that he wanted to invade and reunify, invade the south and reunify. Stalin was extremely cautious about this because he was worried about the americans. The American Army, the occupation army, was still in korea. He told him its not a very good idea. But also, he pointed out to kim, you know, syngman rhee seems very eager to invade you, to invade the north. So why dont you just let him do that, then the whole world will comport what youre doing into defense and you can take over all of korea. And stalin indicated he would support him in that case. Well, the general, my character, learned as well after that, stalin told kim, go back to pyongyang, but lie low, dont raise this issue of invasion again. But then the American Army pulled out of south korea. And in addition, the chinese communists won the civil war in china in 49, october of 49. And so the conditions on the ground were changing. In addition, soviet union had developed its own atomic bomb to match the americans. And so at that point in april of 50, stalin gave ilsung the goahead for the invasion. It turns out just in june, just two weeks before, ten days before the invasion, john foster dulles, special envoy of president truman, was in korea assessing the situation. And rhee even then was begging him to allow him to invade north korea. And as i said earlier, and of course, the Truman Administration was very leery of starting a war with the soviet union, and so even at that stage, and as i said earlier, there was skirmishing along the border, after which, lets say, had to be blamed had to be the doing of the south and perhaps the other half the north. But they were fighting each other for a couple years before this fullscale invasion occurred. Yeah, you know, you were there the last three months, and we think of the action in the war really taking place in the first year from the invasion in june to the following spring, and such a back and forth, up and down the peninsula, the chinese entering the war, et cetera, but the final two years were quite a bloody, grinding trench warfare type of war. And im not surprised to hear that trucks going north with troops and ambulances going south even that late in the war. In fact, the chinese lau its punishment for syngman rhee and the things he was doing. Just at the end of the war. And there was always during those days an attempt to gain an inch more territory, so there was a lot of patrolling and small attacks and sniping, et cetera, going on. And casualties continued day by day. Herman, let me go back to you. Are you still with us . Yep. So you were 19 years old at the time. What was going through your mind as you left the u. S. , traveled to korea, and became part of this conflict . What were you thinking personally . Caller well, i was in college and not doing well. I was at the university of North Carolina. And after my junior year, i dropped out. And i had no choice, either to be drafted or enlist in the army. And if i had they said if i were if i enlisted, i would not have to go to korea. But i enlisted for three years. And i ended up there anyway. I was totally nonpolitical. It was just, you know, i was, you say 19 years old or whatever. I just had to do what i had to do. That was it. I never thought about the war in particular. Herman, thanks for calling from baltimore, maryland, a veteran of the korean war. And lets go to james next, who is joining us from berrien springs, michigan. Good morning, jim. Caller good morning. Thank you for the book. My question is, in 1968, i was stationed at an air base in japan when the North Koreans seized the uss pueblo and shot down the picket plant. In a surge, where i met my wife of 51 years who was born in north korea in 1949. And over the years, i had concluded that she would not have been in south korea if General Macarthur had not disobeyed orders and were losing you. Caller if you could comment on the number of refugees who were able to get out of north korea as a result of macarthurs disobedience. Thank you. And Charles Hanley making a reference to his own wife, who he met in 1968. Your response. Yeah, im sorry, steve. I didnt catch all of that. But he mentioned his wife being from caisson. This is a very interesting and sad situation. Actually, thats spelled kaesong, and it was in south korea before the war, and was much fought over during the war, but in the end, at the demarcation line, it ended up in north korea. And kaesong is an old capital, Royal Capital of the old korea. And now, you may know that kaesong is also sort of the center for the interkorean cooperation whenever it does happen, theres an Industrial Park there with south Korean Industries for some years or longer, and shut down temporarily south korean industry was able to use north korean workers for production. But the whole refugee story is just one of the great tragedies of the 20th century, the korean refugee story. Its estimated that 10 million koreans were separated from their immediate family, members of their immediate family, and my featured individuals, my characters have many examples of this. One is a medical student from north korea who dodged the draft by the north once the war broke out, he was supposed to be drafted, but he hid. His grandmother hid him away. And then eventually, with all of this back and forth over the territory and north and south korea, he gets evacuated to south korea by sea. And is impressed into the south korean army. But when he left the north, this is when the chinese entered the south korean army and American Army had moved deep into korea, including past his hometown, and he thought korea will now be unified. Then he returned from his hospital, he was a medical student. Returned from his hospital duty one day and sees the south korean army marching south. He asked a military policeman, whats going on . He said, well, this is just a tactical retreat, young man, for three days. He goes home and tells his mother, i better leave because im a draft evader. I should leave, but ill be back in three days. And this is just such a typical example. He never saw his mother again. This was in late 1950. And this young medical student survived as a soldier in the south korean army and went through some very hairraising experiences. And went on to medical school in the south and eventually emigrated to california and became a wellknown cardiologist in california and was finally able to return to north korea in the 1980s, but by then, his mother had died. The mother he told he would be back in three days. As i say, there are so many stories, so many heartbreaking stories of families that thought they were temporarily separated and then find out its for the rest of their lives. There isnt yet another little known, little explored area of this great tragic war. Chronicled in the upcoming new book titled ghost flames, life and death in a hidden war, korea 19501953. Another key figure in all of this, park sunyung. Can you explain . Well, yes, park was a young mother in central south korea. Who she and fellow villagers were chased by american troops from their village as the americans were retreating. And this is in july of 1950. They moved down the road and encountered troops of the seventh calgary regiment who made them leave the road and go up on the parallel road, and very quickly, american war planes came along and strafed and bombed this Refugee Group of several hundred people. Many were killed in this attack, many then fled under a nearby concrete railroad bridge. This twin tunnel situation under a railroad bridge. And the dugin troops of the seventh regimen proceeded to machine gun these people. This was known as a massacre which was not confirmed until half a century later, until 1999. She lost her two children, her 2yearold girl was killed fairly immediately in the tunnel. And then, the next night, she tried to escape, the mother tried to escape with her 4yearold boy, and as very slowly making her way through the brush, as dawn, as the sun rose, an american soldier shot at them point blank. They could clearly see it was a mother and child. Killed the boy and badly wounded her. And then in one of these absurd inconsistencies of war, the americans then took her away to an Army Hospital and treated her and she recuperated. She had been separated from her husband who left earlier who had gone farther south and it took weeks before they could reunite and try to make a new life back in their home village. Let me jump in with one final point because we only have about a minute left. And this is one other video involved in the wear, of course, korean war, and james sharp reflecting on what he remembers from the conflict. I have a photograph of that. I looked at it. And i am the only africanamerican in my platoon. That would have been about 120 people. 120 . And i was the only africanamerican. And then when we arrived in fox Company Second battalion, 7th marines, we had four five. Two of whom were killed. At one time we spent 83 days on line, which was an exceptional amount of time to be on line. While youre on line youre defending the trench line but also out on patrol in front of you, so you cross your own barbed wire and mine fields and go out into the open areas in front of your line and in order to protect it. From the Korean War Legacy Foundation and joining us from naples, florida, is Charles Hanley. Bottom line, with about a half a minute left, whats the legacy of that conflict . Well, it is clearly the simple fact that that 38th parallel on the Korean Peninsula is probably the most tense, explosive little piece of geography in the world. Still we have a Nuclear North Korea at this point, as i explained earlier essentially the result of the war and we need to establish a deterrent. And we have an American Occupation for it, American Allied force in the south as well. And it simply remains a tinder box we see almost every day along the 28th parallel north and south. Also it changed the United States into a permanently militarized nation. We fought many wars after that establishing a precedent for everything that followed. And it still is not clear there is no peace. Were still at war, technically, on that peninsula. And so it really was a water shed moment for American History and global history. Charles hanley is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter. His book ghost flames, thanks very much for joining us here on cspan washington journal and on American History tv. Thank you. Tonight on American History tv, beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, a night of programs on espionage. We begin with paul kicks, talking about his book the sabbo tour, who was the most daring antinazi commando which chronicles the world war ii exploits. Watch American History tv tonight and over the weekend on cspan3. American history tv on cspan. Exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. Coming up this weekend, 60 years ago four africanamerican students protested segregation at a wool worth lunch counter in greensboro, North Carolina which began the lunch counter sitins. On sunday at 9 00 a. M. Eastern live on American History tv and washington journal will discuss this desegregation in the 1960s with professor tracy parker, author of Department Stores in the black freedom movement. Then at 4 00 p. M. Eastern on reel america, two films on the civil rights movement. Movement, february 1st, the story of the greensboro 4 and the American Revolution of 63 and at 7 00 p. M. Eastern on oral histories a interview with esther terry and her role in the 1960 lunch counter sitin protest in greensboro. Exploring the american story, watch American History tv this weekend on cspan3. Up next, on American History tv, a news reel from the u. S. Information agency on north koreas invasion of south korea on june 25th, 1950 the response from the United Nations