Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence Image - Julia Grant 20240712

Garden spot of orchids. Growing up in a slave holding family, she ended up as the spells of the commanding general at the u. S. Army during the civil war. She and he was ulysses as grant shared 37 years together that included the hardships of war, the tribes of politics and eight challenging years in the white house. Welcome to our program, our continuing series first ladies influence an image. Tonight, the life of julia grant. Lets introduce you to our two guests of the table, a member of our Academic Advisory Panel for this year, we are delighted to have him here. Hes a Longtime White House a story in and the author of the president s house. Bill, its so great to see you. Pam is a historian at the ulysses as Grant National Historic Site and st. Louis majority and working on a biography of julia grant. Lets start with you, we last left the cities with the johnson,s after impeachment. And the politics with the radical republicans and the reconstruction, so set the stage for us as the grants come into the white house. Well, grants election started off with a campaign, let us have peace. So people were really looking to grant to kind of bring some peace and quiet to the white house and to the nation after the war and then the years of the Johnson Administration so those who are grants initial efforts as he took office. And those are the themes that we brought who were looking at his inaugural, the themes that he struck when he spoke to the nation for the first time . And he also had the added advantage of being a hero, famous even in the south if he wasnt beloved. But everywhere else. 1 million young men trying to imitate his stance, the stance he had and he was widely pop people and clean, it was clean nothing dirty attached to him, so i think he was a natural. But the president was ready for it, in other words. Talk about the first lady herself. She had been the wife of a general, so that brings some skill sets along with it. What did she bring to the role in the white house . She brought an incredibly strong supporting role to the president there. Their lives had been that way. She ultimately was very supportive of him but she was supportive to him and they wanted to represent in the white house the ideal american family, and they werent there but this huge portrait was brought in and hung in the bedroom. The white house had been open to the public since jeffersons time, and they put this in the red room, the suits picture of the grand family to the public could see it on the tours. This was their home, and where they lived. So this whole symbolic home that julia grant developed. Since youre working on a biography, what kind of woman was she . She was very outgoing and warm, in some way they were opposite and had some similarities as well, both had a fondness of riding horses and reading. She was a very likable person, and you get that not only from contemporaries of hers but from her own memoirs as well. Would be fair to say that she was a better politician of the two . She could be very politically astute in some of her dealings with cabinet members and their wives and public but she would most often differ to the political realm. She seems to be very protective of her husband to and she was not hesitant to give her opinion on things. She seems to be a woman who cut her cloth, as they used to say exactly what does that mean . She knew what she wanted to do, what you want to accomplish in the rest of the stuff could be arranged. She was unusual in the fact that she had been educated at that timeframe, so she completed Something Like 15 or 16 years of schooling. Yes, shes gone to a Neighborhood School as a young child with her siblings and then to a female academy in the city of st. Louis, a boarding school that she attended until about age 18. The Grant Administration is a two term or and it was full of so many stories, it was hard for us to find just a few to put on the screen, to give you a sense of what it was like. In 1870, president grant was successful and having the 15th amendment to the constitution ratified, giving people the right to vote regardless of race, of course still not women. And then an 1871, the force acts were passed. That was anti kkk legislation. It was something that president grant was much involved in and that was to protect voters in the south against the rising work of the kkk. 1873, and will talk more about this later, the panic of 1873 a big downturn that resulted from some of the policies of the administration, and the battle of little big horn was fought. That is just something during that administration. As he brings on his, cabinet the story of the granite ministration is that they were no strangers to political patronage, so for both of you, what kind of advisers did he surround himself with and how involved was julia in that process . Most of the people that a grant appointed, at least two his cabinet, he either knew of or new personally, for example wash burn, a former congressman of illinois. He had been appointed secretary of state and as a thank you for having supported through the war. And others were Business People that he thought would do the best job, some of them said not to be so, trustworthy as they had placed in them. What kind of tone did they set . At first, grant made the decisions himself, and i think that caused some friction with congress, especially numbers of his own party who expected him to consult with him and his selection of cabinet members, and he made his decisions entirely on his own. I think the whole theme of the era was success, great success. It was before the panic of 1973, and they came from not a lot and had gained a lot. He was attracted to those kind of people, and they were to. And they entertain them, they associated with him and it was certainly a more loose supervision by the government over what the politicians did. And the idea was that he would be the chief executive. It was called the executive mansion, and was onstreet talk. But executive mansion, this is where the executive of the great nation lived and the congress was the board that ran the country. That was over simplifying it the idea. You know the inside the white house like nobody else, and we have some video of what is now called the white house treaty room, well show people that. And that was the room that grant used for his cabinet, and were looking at the pictures right now. Can you tell us a little bit about the room . They purchased the table, in 1971 is i remember. In philadelphia. And it has been in the white house ever since. It was carried through the administration, that room was a sitting room and lincoln made it into a Reception Room where you took reports and then Andrew Johnson took it in as a cabinet room and grant refurnish did as a cabinet room. With other things you see here, that sofa in the back, and other things were in the house at that time. It was a grubby or room than it is today and lots of political memorabilia. President grant was known to smoke up to 20 cigars a day, is that right . He had picked up that happened during the civil war when one of his victories he was sent cigars in appreciation, and had many he started smoking them on a very regular basis. We invite your participation in our program, thats what makes it work for us every week. We do it in a number of ways. You can call us, and hear our phone lines, two zero two five eight five, if you live in the eastern or central time zones. If you live in the western or part of the United States, mountain pacific time, 200 to 381 5581. Join the conversation and you can tweet us. Use the hashtag first ladies and we will include some of our questions and comments and our conversation. Julia grant, by all account loved life in the white house and here is, similar to the one we use in the outset, my life in the white house was like a bright and beautiful dream. How did she approach her time there . She considered herself hostess to the nation, and was doing her best to ensure that she acted in the manner that the public would have received very well. She did compare her time there and i think that was more a reflection of the first time that the family spent years together without separation. Because of his work, right . Clearly she wanted to make this a model house for the nation and other first ladies that felt that way to. But it was part of grants program, and they entertained lavishly, very lavishly, not in a fancy sense, but in an elegant sense. She handled that very well herself. Grant brought his own cronies and as much as he could and those diplomatic man that he had served bake roast beef slices and apple pie with cheese on it, and the diplomats were horrified. But julia let him go. And hired valentino, a well known chef in new york and he came there and turned it into a very cosmopolitan table. Flowers, costumes, and she was very stringent about rules. All the white house staff were just in business suits, they had to be in full dress and they had to stand at attention. Theres a story she tells that a woman would come to the womans noon receptions, and if you did not wear a house, feud were part of the house party. If you did, you are an outside gassed. And women from time to time would go and mrs. Grant said they never repeated that a second time. How is this received by the nation . One of the other things that was happening was that there was quite a burgeoning press corps and lots of coverage of the couple in the white house. There was a lot of people describing him, there were descriptions of what he did. He and his friends lived across Lafayette Park and would get in races, on their cell keys with their horses and as you know, grant was absolutely a horseman to his sole. His father dealt and horses and was raised that way. Grant new horses, so we had quite a staple. He brought his own coachman to the white house, and he stayed there until the automobile took over as head of the staples. He was a black man who was very grand looking, and managed the stables for the staff. Graham would spend time but the eloquent equipage was part of it, but the public liked it. It looked successful and peaceful and, of course, the accumulation of successful friends, which was easy to do was one of the sad things. He trusted people that he should not have trusted. I think, too, the fact that, as you said, the family was there and so while there was this opulence on one level, it was very down to earth in the fact that what the four Young Children at home. Julia for example closed off the backyard so the children could play. Help people understand the economy of the United States. Were they still reeling from the war . It was just his brightest it was, but you go up in the mississippi and there was some pretty horrible powers in georgia as well, not all blamed on sherman, its the collapse of the party because the english went to canada. The laps of years, and the brocade, the new orleans flourished. So, it was not all like gone with the wind. It was coming back, but it was a different culture. It would not be agricultural, or have agriculture fluorescents until later. The mississippi was in a great Big Industrial revolution, and tell us more about what was happening there. They became a continuation of war, and expansion, and they were getting ready for the centennial of the nation and showing off the advances that had been made in the past hundred years. Most of those were technological advances to the new modern technology, transcontinental is bringing people closer together, going cross country. Theres a few of those, big things happen during the grand presidency, as pam mentioned. The Transcontinental Railroad was completed in 1869 as a grant for coming into the white house, 1870, the establishment of the National Weather service sent an issuing of their first forecast. The great chicago fire happened at an 1872, the First National park was established in yellowstone and, as we just said, the philadelphia centennial celebrations. How big deal was . This huge. Absolutely huge. It was almost like a worlds fair would have been. People from all over the world attended it, but it was really a time for america to shine and really show that it was coming into its own as a world power. And mrs. Grant loved it. She brought two things for the white house with public money, one was a shield that showed characters from miltons paradise lost and a more enduring peace, i dont know after that. But it was a centerpiece so she brought a silver centerpiece, which was about this big and it shows the dog and cat tailed weeds and the canoe in the middle of it, lounging on a bare skin rug. And that was the new centerpiece for the white house she bought at the fair. And that is still in the silver closet at the white house. So, the julia grand have any hired assistance who helped or at the white house . How were first ladies staffed at this point . There was no social secretary. Usually, the guys got together and it was the president and mrs. Grant and their friends would come over for a tea party and they would fill out the blanks usually. She had mary mueller as the housekeeper, the one who traveled to europe with her . I think so. She called her a most excellent woman. And i dare say she helped with some of that. But most of the social duties, there might be a clerk from the office that would help, but there was no social staff until Theodore Roosevelt. Heres the question about their days preceding coming to the white house who wants to know, grants family was often close by during the war in washington d. C. Did julia has a presence in washington before the election . I would say, yes. Yes. Because grant was still head of the army after the war and for a short while the secretary of war. She talks about the receptions that she held, that they held in their home in d. C. And that it was a natural progression into the white house. Dont you think she was one of those women that attracted people . She was a personable woman and she cared about people. When someone had a hard time with something, she went to them. She was a nice person, and people were attracted to it. One of the interesting stories that i read, the illusions to tension between a mary lincoln and julia grant, julia grant would come during the war years, certainly a general, but it looked as if there was some bit of competition that Murray Lincoln might have felt between the two. I want to read you this one paragraph. He writes, on a number there occasion, julia was in a military camp when mary lincoln visited. She imperiously committed julia to leave the room as its done and royal courts. Mary order julia to back away from her so that julian never turned her back on the first lady, as if the first lady were a clean and julia emir commoner. Its a humiliating treatment was intended to provoke an outbreak, mary lincoln failed at it. She later denied she had any ill feeling about her treatment at the hands of the first lady. Im not familiar with that particular story. It couldve happened during the steam boat ways. And shes very kind and her recollections, but when they were dictated, it was years later and mrs. Lincolns tragedy, it happened. But there were problems. She was very jealous of lincoln, and women and lincoln. I think theres absolutely no reason for that, but she was. And she would be very ugly to people who said that they made a remark once, there is a feisty horse and said he knew a feisty horse like that to keep up with your husband. Words to that effect. Mrs. Lincoln said, what do you mean by that . We are going to see videos of a few of the grants preserved sites, and you work at one of them. How many are there altogether . There are several homes that are owned and operated by either the National Park service or the various states they are located in, grants tomb and all of the battlefields have connecting site, and then there are some that are no longer there. The first one is in illinois. Two modern ears, the sounds fairly shocking, but because of his great achievement in the war, when he came home, people built and gave to him a fully furnished house. How was that viewed in the day . Was that considered ethically appropriate to do . Apparently so. It was welcoming a hero and. Look at the british and wellington. It was done, the houses were given to people at various places. Its unusual to see an American History but it was certainly done with him. He had to sell most of them for money. We are going to bring the Illinois House and this is where the grants lived in the years after the war and before coming to the white house. Lets take a look, because it sets the stage for their presidency. This home was a gift that 13 businessmen from melina purchase to give to the grand family, in appreciation for his service during the war. Julia mentions and her memoirs coming up the hill and being prevented this lovely villa that she said was furnished with everything good taste could offer. Now, the parlor. Which was the entertainment part of the home, and we all know that julia was an avid entertainer, she loved it. The family spent quite a bit of time here in the parlor also. We know that mrs. Grant and their daughter ellen played the piano, so you can imagine the family sitting here, the other boys here listening to their sister and mother play some songs for them. Theyve entertained and here, and julia and maybe ellen played a little song for their guests. Grant launched his president ial campaign from his headquarters, which was in downtown the lena. The day after his election, gradually opened up their home at the parlor here for people, townsfolk to file through and congratulate both of them on his election in the next step of their lives. This is the general and mrs. Grants bedroom. The bed is the oldest piece that we have in the house, probably the most personal. This is the original that they brought to glean with them from white haven, putting down some roots here angelina, and they left it here. Even throughout all their travels and the white house, this was always here for them when they came back. This is called a lab book. It has misses u. S. Grant on it, it was julias. And she probably kept papers, pens, her correspondents in here for when she was either writing letters, or receiving them and kept them stored in here. Religion was very important for mrs. Grant. Her grandfather was a methodist minister, so growing up it was important to her and she instilled that in the children. They attended the Methodist Church here angelina, the pew they used is still marked at the church. Over on the dresser, we have a viable that was given to miss his grant by the Methodist Episcopal Church in 1888. This is the dressing room, the most personal space in the house relating to julia grant. This is the room when she would come in to get ready in the mornings, get ready in the evenings, ready for bed, and just to come in to give some solitude. Theres a lot of things that belong to mrs. Grant. Theres four sewing kit that she wouldve used two men some socks, so a button on. We have a couple pairs of her little size for shoes that she wore, and some persons that he would have used as they were going out on the town, visiting on a sunday afternoon. A majority of the furnishings that we still have belong to the granite family when they were here. If they walk through, they would feel right at home because its furnishing the lives when they were here. They came back when they were a military hero. He started his political career, his rise to the presidency and this is where he was living when he was elected, when she became first lady and this was home to them, right before that. And regina grumpy asked us, did the grants ever consider returning to clean after the presidency . They visited there for a while as they did at white haven, but settled in new york, in part to be closer to the children, the three of the children were living in new york city, and their daughter was in europe. And part of it, we think, was the social life in new york was a little bit more enjoyable for julia then gleaner or st. Louis. The grant said five children, four from live to maturity, one child died. Is that Bad Information . No, they only had four children. You do finding from book to book that are very contradictory. By then, they had renounced their citizenship, and we havent talked about that. We should talk about her. But we just saw the family life they created in the lena, illinois. Talk about the family life that they created in the white house. One thing id like to tell about family life that makes me be a fly on the wall, general grant added between if you face the white house on your right, there were greenhouses built up on the top of the wing, the west wing, not the offices. They werent there. But just a straight wing. And general grant built between that and house a billiard room, which had stained glass in it and all sorts of things. And he would invite his old civil war cronies there. The play billiards and smoke cigars, and maybe drink a little. And they would end up going into the red room and reliving the battles, and reliving we imagine being able to see. That but thats the sort of informality they lived with with their friends, and they were trying to show morals more than the grants were, they tour the billiard room down immediately. We also have some video of this white house small family dining room, and it was told that the grant would get there as a family farm breakfast every day. What is that room like today . Its very dressy. It reflects more Theodore Roosevelt did do it in 1902, it was always a cloth on the table, and you served the pantry through those doors on the side and the dishes were watching their, and the family gathered there at this great big table. And that was the little dining room. That was a big staircase and a big dining room where state occasions were held. In 19 oh, to this was incorporating there, and it was the state dining room today. The grant family had four children who we have established, but were all of them living in the white house at the time . The oldest son had received employment to west point, so he was coming and going. But the younger children were still there, and julia thought over that dining room table how ulysses sometimes would play around, and play games and take pieces of bread and roll it into a ball, and to a deal and throw it at the kids, at the boys. And play with it. She disapproved, and she also recalled with some of the children coming into her room about half an hour before dinner and they would all just sit and talk and visit and share their days comings and goings in the events. And she would recall that very fondly. There are very lenient parents. The second one is a little less, and he actually talked back. He could checkmate a lot of things his father said, and they thought it was funny. Heres our first caller, bianca watching us in newport news virginia. Bianca, youre on, welcome. Hi, how are you doing . I would like to know more about julias that. I know that her family is didnt family, can you talk more about them . Very briefly, will spend more time about that later, but give us a quick synopsis. Julias parents came to st. Louis in 1816 and established their family in the city of st. Louis in that country home, where she grew up and spend most of her families and she had for older brothers and two younger sisters, so it was a rather large family. They consider themselves southerners, at least her father did. And they were a slave holding family. They were as many as 30 slaves that colonel dent utilized a labor of at white haven. That created great tension between them, the grant and the dent family. Yes, when they were married and the city of st. Louis, none of the grants attended the wedding, reportedly because they did not approve of ulysses marrying into a slave holding family. Did they live in the white house for sometime . How was that received . He was living there, and he was a jolly old man, he was not really a colonel and she was very witty and that is probably where she got it, so grandfather would come in with and would go around to the departments and try to make them by horses, and the two of them were just unbelievable in the white house. The colonel called them that old gentlemen there, and teased each other a lot. It was good nature teasing, and it would have been stopped if it wasnt. Very different rules about the world. But everyone loved them, but it was never along there. It seems as if julia used her military direction to organized and command the white house. That seems to hold strong, even today. Julia was more influential than she realized it seems. Did she bring military organization to the running of the white house . I think thats a good idea, a good remark. She brought real order an organization, she tried to manage the money and the people. They were double 2 30 and all the payrolls exist. And then she very much interacted with them. There was a man that work in the white house and had a lot of trouble, and then she was very emphatic that he started buying washington real estate. She died a wealthy man, but she put the salary of that. And she ran the whole thing. With the help of the dortmund, and that is a likely remark of how they were organized. You were talking about this before, but a bit of a different view. You and i both read about the fact that there were infrastructure problems, and that she tackled this and did some great refurbishment of the design. What do you know of it . A lot of it was the perception that she wanted to present to the public, this was the nations home as well as their home, they were only temporary residents. And she also was concerned in some ways that she was from the west, as she called it, which missouri was at the time that she did not have the social accurate that many of the eastern families would have expected. So she wanted to ensure that what she did would meet with the approval of the nation and those social elites. So she immediately talks about not even moving into the white house right away because she is going through and cleaning things up and getting things organized. The money of that came from congress . Johnson and his daughter patterson who have completely ridden the white house inside, repainted, redecorated and all. But julia grant says in her memoir that she went in and change the furniture around. But it was very stylish in the 18 sixties, about to react to mass production. They had everything in the rooms to look artistic. So they went and pulled everything together and put tiny bows on the back of the. Furniture she did that, and then they later redecorated the east room and did some work on the house. The style was what . They called it general grant, who was probably steamboat gothic. Steamboat gothic . I have that image in my mind. Ted adams asks us if they were educated at home or in school . They did attend schools, even during the war, boys were sent to various schools, once the grants moved east, once his responsibilities called him to the east, the boys went to school and burlington, new jersey. Jesse and natalie would have been schooled in washington d. C. We did not really establish this but it was implied. Michael asked on twitter, what julia grant ask about to seize grant to seek the presidency in 1868 . Was it something she supported . She did, but she was initially has attend. She had always wanted to marry a dashing lieutenant and always saw herself as the wife of the general, so initially, this change into the presidency was a little she wasnt sure about it. And she wasnt sure if ulysses really wanted it either, so she asked him and he said no. He really wasnt interested in it but felt that he was the one that the nation could best use at that time. She was happy as an army wife and but he had loved at that point . But he was still a famous general, and she realized that. Eight years later, she was not so happy about leaving the presidency. In those years in between, and this is a story of their lives, so many ups and downs economically. A great success, and then financial ruin. After he left the army, he struggled, is that correct . To find something that he could do well. He resigned from the military in 1854. He had been stationed from the west coast, julie had been living in west haven, had made the journey with him two years earlier, because she was pregnant with their second child. And, so, grant resigned from the military in 1854 to come back to st. Louis, and its rather ironic, he says that he supposedly told someone, if anyone hears from me in ten years, they will know of me as an old missouri farmer. Of course, 1864, he was general of all of the armies during the war. He came back to st. Louis to farm, just Getting Started in those years, rather difficult throughout the country. There was economic panic and bad weather, so he held a couple of different jobs in the city of st. Louis and then move to the. A will show that later. A the daughter of now leaving moderate in the white house. Tell us about. That a sweeping, romantic, dramatic events that happened in the white house probably since the british burned it down. Nearly was 17, right . She met the gentlemen and he was an englishman on the ship. They were engaged to be married and the parents disapproved because she was going to england, but when she was so young, mr. Grant said, oh so young. But the wedding took place on july 21st, 1817. They redecorated the eastern room for, it living the basic would work and adding more. And the nation in just one wild. They werent a lot of invitations, 200 only. 250. But the streets were mobbed. You can get to any place. And what witman was there and wrote, yield thy red cheeks to a nations loving kiss. And it was just the most wonderful thing. Huge wedding bells for, and the presence was assembled to where they were bought. For those presence were bought, and there was a wedding breakfast, and then they left the honeymoon and lives in england, where she is right on to her citizenship, but she later regretted it and petitioned congress to get it back. I think she actually had to announce her citizenship by marrying someone from england and moving over there. It lasted 17 years . Yes. Reportedly, after the wedding was over, grant went upstairs and just fell on the bed and wept. He was so upset that his daughter was leaving. The guy was a womanizer for, and its been a lot of money. That four children, one died in infancy. He died a 90 something, she died later. One of the things, weve seen so many photographs of julia grant and they are often from the side. One of our viewers is asking on twitter sorry, facebook. Twitter book, sorry. I read that mr. Grant was injured as a child and never saw straight again. Was this true, and how did she stay so active and involved . I have read one instance where it was a supposedly caused by an in jury, but my understanding with that she was born with what today would call a lazy i. So one i turned in and shes always very self conscious of that feeling, especially as grand rose to fame more, she needed to do something about it. And she, on two separate occasions attempted to have a surgeon work on her eye to fix it, and grant found out about it and told her that she had fallen in love with her the way she was, and she might not like our half as much if she had her eyes surgically corrected. Marty is watching this and lancaster are highly, youre on. Thank you. I have a question, it has been rumored that president grant liked to drink a lot. How did julia handle his situation where he wanted to drink . But its not a whole lot of proof that grant was a drunk, he drank, a lot of people drink and there are stories about him being drunk, secondhand stories and things like that, but when you lay it on the table, it doesnt go very far. He wasnt a binge drinker type person, i dont think anyone has been able to proof more than six sources for that. He went through a lot of trouble in the years before the civil war and hard times and businesses and, it ended by production in the civil war. He was trying to do business in those terrible years and some of the things that i have looked at have indicated that, perhaps out on the west coast after being separated for two years, he was definitely depressed and missing them, theres no evidence that he was forced to resign at that time. Later times, when some of these rumors came up again, it seems to have been when other generals were jealous of grant success and this is a attempt to bring them down. Of course, lincoln is rumored to have said, although its not a proven story, that win congressman came to him saying, remove grant, hes a drunk, he cant be running the army, he reportedly asked them to find out what type of alcohol grant was drinking and he would order barrels for all of his generals. Because of his success on the battlefield. We have so much to cover and so little time. But when you see historians analysis of the granted ministration, it ranks very close to the bottom for the many scandals that encompassed the administration. What did people need to know about that period . What are the most important ones, and what was the effect on the presidency . Actually, historians have been reassessing grants presidency and the tanya survey. They moved from 33 to 23, so he is improving in perspective. The a lot of that has to do with his actions regarding civil rights for the newly freed African Americans in the country. He did do that, but it doesnt take a way from the domestic scandals and the corruption and that sort of thing for. We need to talk about that. Most of them had been going on before his time, some as far as lincoln. Julia grant was in the middle of these things, do we contest that . She talked about the black friday incident where fist and gold tried to capture the gold market and julia talks in her memoirs about that, that the only thing she knew about was when grant had her write a letter to her sisterinlaws, was actually grants sister virginia who was married to april corbyn, who was reportedly involved in this and trying to persuade grant. Grant had a right to virginia saying be careful, and then he turns around and sells off government gold to bring that to a stop. Martha is watching this in charleston, south carolina. Hi martha. Oh, hi susan. Thanks again for a terrific show. You alluded to my question earlier in the show about the possible tension between julia grant and mary lincoln. And then you visited the beautiful home that was given to the grants, and im not sure, was it during the same time period where mary lincoln was trying to get a pension out of the government and mary lincoln was in germany trying to educate her sons dad, and i believe that the grants later on visited mary lincoln when she was in france, is that correct . They didnt, the day . They cross paths, but julia said they did not find out about mary lincoln being in the same town that they were in until they were on their way out and could change their plans. Do you agree with the irony of the fact that Murray Lincoln was struggling and looking for a pension after her husband was the chief executive in the war, and the grounds had these houses given to them . It seems until extremely unfair. She was seeking pinching from the government, and the houses were given by people. Theres a difference. If the congress did not approve, and the congress were all remembered as thugs and a popular way. They were vigilant, it was not all a bad a congress, they were vigilant. They exposed these three major scandals, the one closest to the white house being or bill barrack, who was a part of the family. And he got involved. And he was tried, and general grant testified. He submitted testimony, he did not actually tested by. The first time the president had ever done that. Next to cheri, in independence, missouri. You and to my question about her eyesight, put another question. Being so well educated for the time, julia seek other languages . And i also understand that, after the grants left the white house, they were really party animals. Ill hang up. She may have learned some french while she was in school, but not on a conversational basis that she knew of. They took two and a half world tours and were welcomed by the public and by royalty throughout the world. But most of the time, they had to have an interpreter while they were there. We learned that, at least mary lincoln, thought that washington looked down upon or as a westerner. And the question from David Murdoch on twitter, that washington looked down on julia as being one of the first ladies from west of the mississippi . I never found that. I never found that at all. She was more sure of herself an unsecured like mary lincoln, and she went after it. One of those people that jumped in the middle, she consider herself the head of Womens Society in the capital, and she was accepted. She was friends with all of those kinds of people in washington, all the embassies and everywhere. She was a go getter. And mary lincoln sat back and waited for people to come to our. Were going to visit another one of the sites associated with the grants and will learn more about what influenced her, her early childhood, at what haven farm outside of st. Louis. This is the front porch of the historic home known as white haven, where julia dent grant spent her childhood years. She was not born here, she was born in the city of st. Louis and their city home, but spent all four summers initially and a yearlong out here as she grew up watching boys play out in the yard, or her sister playing the guitar and then singing on the front porch. And that is where she has her earliest memories of her father lifting her up in the air, telling her that the trees were waving and welcoming her back to her childhood home. And that was when she was about two years old. So very early memories. They wouldve entered through the main tore into the foyer, and from here, would have gone most frequently into the former paul are. Where they would have been welcomed by colonel and mrs. Didnt, learning how to be a lady and welcome guests and company to the home here. Some of julias fondest memories from the dining room here at a white haven include the meals that were served here, the meals were always served by the dense enslaved housekeepers. She talked about white china with gold trim and the cut glass. She talks about the slave cook making maryland biscuits, and the games that would be played with the children as well, talking and laughing about the days activities. From here after dinner, the guests would have come into the sitting room, which is where the family would have spent more of their personal time in the evenings, playing games on the game table, checkers or chest, things like that. Julia wouldve played with some dolls in here, and again, but lots of reading taking place. On the second floor of white haven, where two rooms that served as veterans. Her parents wouldve had one bedroom, julia would have shared this bedroom. And the 19th century, when you had a nice upstairs porch area, the boys would have slapped out there in the summertime. And we know much about white haven from those memoirs, shes the first first lady to have written her memories, and she spent a lot of time talking about her life here at white haven. And her day job also. This was the color they painted after they purchased the family during the civil war. Brilliant. Where and when did ulysses First Encounter julia . She seems rather short, he tallest. No, he was not. All he was about five eight, and she was about five foot two. They met at white haven. He had been a roommate of julias brother, fred dent at west point. And ivan grant after graduation from west point was jefferson stationed at jefferson barracks, fred invited ulysses to visit his family out at white haven. Granted that in september of 1843, and then in february of 1844, julia returned home from the boarding school she was attending in the city, and grant says, and julia says that, initially, his visits had been about once a week to white haven. But once she returned home and he met her, is visits were daily. And he proposed to her within three months. We learned from you that they were slave holding families. A number of questions about their families and their personal attitudes sourced lay very. Heres one from donna price. Julie came from a family where her father owned slaves. Is it true that she had pro slavery sympathies . Initially, she did. She had been born and raised at white haven with the enslaved individuals providing everything that she needed, and at one point she says that she thought the house kept itself with all the work that was being done. We there were as many as 30 slaves that colonel dent owned, according to the census records. So once she met, fell in love with, and married ulysses, it put her in the middle, between these two opposing viewpoints. She talks about growing up, some of those enslaved individuals were her playmates, playing in the yard with her. Going to carrying her to school, things like that. And these are the same individuals then that would provide the work on the farm. The older individuals, she considered part of the family. And and uncle, typical southern way of addressing these individuals. But while she consider than part of the family, they obviously did not. With the grants have been the lastly folding family in the white house . Grant did own one sleigh that he acquired from julias father, that he freed, william jones, an 1859. So before the civil war started. Julia, although she talks about having four slaves given to her by her father, she did not actually own any. Her father never made legal transfer, otherwise it would have been grants property. To perhaps free. So i think that, counting william jones, the answer is that they would have been the left. They all left white haven right . Before they were legally freed by the emancipation proclamation, yes. Is it an untrue story that when she made trips to visit grant, she brought a slave. That is a true story. Was the irony not lost on her . It doesnt seem to. She needed the help, and she even talks about how black julia, as she was called, was almost captured at hala springs and did free herself. Left on one of the trips. Related to this, and this will be your thoughts. Regina asks, did julia have thoughts on equality for freed slaves and women during the presidency . When asked if color people were to be admitted to the reception, she said yes. But she doesnt remember any attests attending, but theyre probably stopped by the guards. And her treatment of staff, it was a personal one on one thing for her. And i imagine that is how she saw it, as a personal relationship. As apart from this bigger issue. Jim as impressed caught arizona. Youre on the air. What type of a Retirement Plan for did he get . Retirement fee for the president . Whats your opinion for the president . No, not until shortly before his death that congress awarded him a pension, right before he died. We will talk about how he found a way to make some money during that period a little bit later on. We have a half hour left in our 90 minute portrait of juliet and grant, the wife of ulysses as grant and our first lady series. We have a minute for a story . I do. Mr. Williams was talking about but mr. Grants size, you always think of him as scruffy for with the beard. He was very small for a military man, and they were down in mexico and the soldiers were being entertained and they got together and a production of a fellow. And grant was elected to play which, he did to great success. And, later, when the famous actor but came and took the part we, the audience booed and put grant but back on stage. Following up on the question about her views about women, Gary Robertson is asking susan the anthony and other women were pardon by president grant, did julia have any influence in this . I dont know if she had influence on that decision. She did become friends with susan be anthony. Although she was not working for suffrage for women, she did refused to sign an anti suffrage petition that was going around. She had certainly learned during the war years when she was kind of forced to take on roles that typically the husband would have assumed, she learned how to become independent and felt that women should have some role in decisionmaking. We will visit another of the grant sites and i will ask you to set the stage for this one. It is called heart scrabble farm. What is it and where is it . When grant was resigned from the army in 1854, they came back to missouri. Living under his father in law s roof was not what he wanted for his family so he built a log cabin for julia in and their children as the family grew. So you will see that log cabin. We recall julia dent was from a wealthy family. You saw what white haven looked like so youll see what kind of house that ulysses as grant built for her as their first homestead. We are standing inside Hard Scrabble which is a two story log cabin that grant built for his family in 1856. Julia in her memoirs lets us know that she does not like it one bit. She founded crude and homely. But true to her nature, she made the best of it. Farming his own land, having his own home on his land, having their place to begin their life again, to renew the marriage is what inspires grant to say i want my own house. And julius julia is perfectly comfortable with that, she wants her own home to. As a married woman she did not want to be the mistrust of her own home, he just she just thought he could build something as nice as white haven and a little perturbed that her father talked grant into building a log structure. The cabinet is a little bit rustic, whitewash it helps with bugs and reflects light so the rooms are more open and cheery but still rustic. Juliet would have brought with her finer things because as a privileged child she would have had fine china, furniture that would have been comfortable, chairs and abroad table because at this point she would have five People Living in this dining room. This is not a cook fireplace here. These are not set up for cooking. The kitchen at the back with servants, and this particular case it would still be slavery. Enslaved people coming in and serving julia and her children in the dining room. What is important about hearts gravel for them is that this represents their own home together. A question from sheldon, as an army wife did julia find one location more her home than any other. Now she always considered white even her home. In fact, in her memoir she again compares the white house to white haven because of the home that it represented. They traveled so much and had so many different headquarters or homes around the country. She created home wherever she was. As is the purview of army spouses. We have one more video of white haven, the beautiful green structure we showed you earlier, but you will have to go to our website to find it. Each week we put a special feature on our website on first ladies and we have a video there that will show you the grants life together in white haven. Next is john watching us all the way out in washington state. You are on the air. My name is john grant, no relates to ulysses, but migrate grand occult was on general grants staff. His name was cyrus. I have a copy of his diary and in it it mentions a number of times when he was in washington that he would have lunch with general grants wife. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on that. Mostly you hear about general grant and his war escapades but afterwards, you know, does anyone has anyone ever heard of that . I think her grandfather was postmaster general under lincoln we. They were very close to the grants, the blares. Do you know any more for him . Well julia entertained so much that it is quite possible. I recognize the name comstock both from the civil war years and juliet memoirs in the white house. Frequently, congressman or people who were looking to get into see grant would try to do that through julia or gain a favor from grant they would frequently go through julia because she was easy and accessible to them. Our next is a call from judy who is watching us and brooklyn. High duty. Good evening. I have to questions. Since general grant smoked so many cigars, i was wondering if julia or the children had any respiratory problems. My other question was, since england had leaned so heavily towards the confederacy, what was the relations like with england during the Grant Administration . Good questions. Thank you so much. Neither julia nor the children ended with any respiratory problems but of course grant ended up with throat cancer from smoking those cigars so it eventually killed him. As far as england was concerned, one of the first issues that granted to deal with as president were the claims against england for their support of the confederacy. He actually sets up the first ever International Arbitration and is credited with peacefully resolving the dispute with england. This is larry in pennsylvania, hilary. Hello. I have been watching your entire series and enjoy them very much. Thanks. My question is i recently read the generals wife by isabelle rock and one of the comments she makes in her book is that julias father really do not care for ulysses at first. I was wondering if you could comment on that. He did say that she would not like the military life. She had been raised with everything and he was dubious. Where they also had disagreements over slavery. I think it was personal. I think he thought that grant was not going to amount to much financially and give her which he took for granted. Miss ross was absolutely right about. That juliet was her fathers favorite child, the first daughter born after four sons. According to julia, colonel dent actually offered when he told ulysses the life of the army was not what julia was set for, he offered her sister knell to grant which grant obviously turned down. He continued to try and convince colonel dent, that no matter what it took, he would be the one to make julia happy. Is it not fair to say that some of his concerns may have been valid . Ulysses as grant was a great warrior, a great general, but most of the other veterans ventures he got involved with he had a hard time making them work. Of course, at that time in 1843 or 1844, nobody knew that grant would become the success. He was in the army, he actually did not intend to stay in the army. He wanted to get out and be a math professor. So. But lets look at his post white house years. Even after all this time in the white house and experience, he then goes on to a career in wall street and loses lots of money. Fred. Yes eventually it is his son who joins. That was fred. It was ulysses junior. It affected the entire family fortunes and basically Ferdinand Ward had everyone fooled. He was a wall street wizard, he was making everyone money hand over fist and that should have run some bells. But just like today it doesnt. Bernie made off yeah. Grant lost just about everything. This is a similar question, how is it that grant lost all his estates and . Money was it due to his drinking . Was he financially wrist irresponsible . He was a man who probably concentrated we did not concentrate on finance the way people who made money to. He would like to have a lot of money but i think other things interested hit him. Was he a bad judge of character . Well, he talks about when this financial failure happens with Ferdinand Ward. When ward comes to ulysses junior and grant himself and says the bank is in a financial straight could you borrow some money and we just need to get through the next few days we. Grant accepts that, burrows 150,000 dollars from William Vanderbilt and Ferdinand Ward scones with the money to canada and the fortune is lost. Grant says that he does not know if you will be able to trust anyone ever again. We have them in their post white house years and people who are watching shun know that we are back then there were no restructure restrictions to run for a third form. Did they seek to run for a third term . No but people many wanted them to. She did. He gave them the letter without telling her and she began to be suspicious. They were upstairs at the hall in the white house and she said you cannot do this, he said i have declined a third term. She said you cannot do this to me. She liked being first lady. Yes. He said it is done, that is it. She seems to have held up fine until inaugural day when they got onto the train car and then she says she went to the bedroom and fell under the bed and sopped and wept because she hated leaving the place. She said she felt like a wife with no home because she was not sure exactly what was going to happen. Im sure she felt that before. In fact, they plot a come back . Once. When they returned from the world tour there were those who thought that he should run for office again, especially with all his Foreign Relations experience. He was interested at that point feeling that he could be of service to the country. Julia says they were in chicago when the convention met and she tried to encourage him to go downstairs and meet at the convention and show his face knowing that would put him over the top with the votes needed but he absolutely refused to do that and lost. Ray specific question because some of the properties we are looking at our near the and house or bush property and you are from that region of the world. Michael reagan wants to know if the grants were tied in any way to anyone in the room Anheuser Busch family . No they purchased many acres of the estate in 1903. The only connection is that in the early years of the war, adolfo this busch served for a short time in the civil war. Marvin in cincinnati youre on. Good evening. Yes. I always heard the story that you alluded to that mrs. Lincoln and mrs. Grant had between each other, that they were originally the first couple that was offered an invitation to affords theater the night of the assassination. Mrs. Grant politely told mr. Grant not to accept and that was the only reason they were not in the box that night. Is that true . Yes. Thats true. They were going to philadelphia and they had a house there. They were going to see the children in philadelphia and that is where they were when they heard that the president had been shot. Was it specific that the assassinated to the train and the door was locked . That is what she talks about in her memoirs. Even earlier during that day when she was at lunch, that theyre been a success suspicious group. Then when they were driving to the train, a man came riding a horse along by the carriage on the way to the station and looked into the window at grant. Grant remarked he was sinister and the man did it twice. It may be just coincidence. But she was obviously scared to death. They believed he was targeted as part of the assassination plot that brought down the lincoln administration. Yes. We learned that julia grant was very unhappy to leave the white house and general grant assuaged that grief by taking her on a twoyear world tour. What should we know about the tour . It was actually his idea. He felt upon leaving the white house like a boy out of school. He always loved traveling and so they embarked on this tour that was originally supposed to be europe and then extended all the way around the world. She enjoyed every minute of it mostly because of the praise and a claim that she saw her husband rift receiving. As well as the shopping and that she did and things that she wanted to bring back home with her. She had a wonderful time on the world tour. We will return to the galina home and see some of the items from the world where they have on display. After eight years in the white house, the grants came back here to glean up for some rest and relaxation for a few months. Then they decided to go on a world tour. They were gone for over two years visiting close to 40 countries. The grants were so popular at the time, they were like american celebrities, and they were treated like royalty in the countries they went to. They received a lot of gifts on the tour. They were fortunate we are fortunate enough to have some of these in the home. Two of them are on the mantle, these red phases were gift from the king of bulgaria. After the world tour, they came back here for another few months and then went to mexico and cuba. The paintings on each side of the fireplace, the landscape paintings, were given to the grants on that trip by the government of mexico. The artist who made these paintings was a popular artist in mexico. This is the dining room where the family would have their meals. Julia would maybe have done a little light entertaining here. This is not anything to elaborate in the home. We have some more gifts here, this piece was given to julia. It is a bronze urn given to her by the citizens of yokohama japan. Of based on the table was given to the grants by the emperor of japan. And here on the mantle was probably one of the most personal pieces that juliette liked the best. He framed leaves here. The leaves were given to her by general grant that he picked up at the holy city. She framed them and wrote the whole story. She had the time of her life on the tour and devotes almost a 34 memoirs to it. She developed friendships with Queen Victoria and a very good friendship with the emperor of japan. They actually ended up staying in japan longer than they expected because they developed such a nice close relationship with him. After president grant died, juliet was living in new york and the emperor of japan actually visited juliet while she was there. They kept that friendship until the end of her life. This was always a place where the children and family could come back to. This was always considered home and was always welcoming for them. Not just the house but galina as well. She refers to it in her memories as her dear dear galina. We have just a short while left and we have to talk about the years after the tour. They come back to the United States and they have lost a lot of money in this event we talked about in new york city with investments. What is their financial situation and the roles of memoirs and assuaging them . When word gets out that they have lost this money, there were actually some veterans from the war who sent grant money to help him, but they loaned to him. But he has offered to write some articles for century magazine about the war and then encouraged from that to write his memoir. Something he was never interested in doing. Samuel clemons, mark twains Publishing Company that ends up publishing those memories for grant. Although he completes them a few short days before he passed away, he knows they will bring financial comfort to julia. The first royalty check was 200,000 dollars. 200,000 dollars . The book made around 1 million. It is a great book, a great classic, i recommend it to anyone. Its still readable . Absolutely. Its beautiful work. Even for those of us who are not military historians. A question on twitter, where mark twain and the grants france since he offered to publish the public the president memories . Yes. They became good friends. It was through twains efforts that grant began writing the memoirs and there were some claims that twain had almost ghost written but twain was very adamant that it was grant who had written it word for word. Another question about mark twain. How close was mark twain close to the grants . I know that twain pay for a sculptor so they could get a death mask from him. Not at the white house. It was afterwards that they developed the close relationship. Apparently mark twain had initially, years earlier, suggested to grant about writing his memoirs but almost as an offhand remark. So when grant says that century magazine is going to publishes memoirs because they were the first to make the offer, twain reminds him that he made the offer much earlier. I will ask my colleagues if we can bring that picture up, the photograph of the president in his final days. It is such a poignant picture, we have seen it, wrapped in his blanket on the porch of his cabinet in new york. In horrible pain. Throat cancer, terrible pain. How was he able to get the memoirs done . He became impassioned to do it. Sure determination. She became that way about riding later, it was the main thing in her life. But he did. It was so important to secure a comfort for his wife. And that he died so shortly after, it seems almost as if adrenaline adrenaline was keeping him going until he was finished. Julia talks about that and grant does as well that that is what was keeping him going. To be able to finish those. I would like to take a call but then i want to hear about her memoirs because she was the first first lady to write memoirs. Listen to a call and then go to that. Kathleen in san francisco. Hi kathleen. Thank you very much. I had a quick question. Julia had Four Brothers and i think i remember them during the civil war they fought on the south for the south. Is that true . Did they finally reconcile . It was her brother fred who had been at west point with ulysses and state in the union army and ends up serving on grants staff. Her brother john, none of them actually joined the confederate army, but they certainly did go south and support the confederacy during the war. At one point, her brother john is captured and put in prison and seeks grants assistance in getting an exchange where a prisoner exchange, and grant refuses to teach john a law lesson. In the white house though, the families always close. Another question from twitter, with all the complexities during the civil war, asking if the grants were either friends with robert easily or Jefferson Davis . Not friends. Certainly grant respected robert e. Lee during the civil war and known him earlier during the mexican war. But juliet does become, after both Jefferson Davis and Ulysses Grant passed away, julia becames friends with davies. Heres the memoir, its available today, its julia grants memoirs and she is the first first lady to publish her memories. This edition was edited by a great civil war and lincoln historian. Whats the story about how these became . He was also the editor of the grant papers, most importantly, which was his lifes work. How did these memories of the first lady come to be published and why so long between her death and the writings . She says that it was her children who after grants death encouraged her to begin writing her memoirs of her wonderful life with her husband. She said she just started it to satisfy their request but then she realized, recalling all these wonderful times, it kind of brought her new life and she did look at them. She was sort of ambivalent of having them published initially. She thought it was just something to records for her children, but then she did try to pursue getting them published several different times and one publisher told her that they were so private then the people who were alive at that time, it was too much personal information. Another time, it was she was told they would be sold by subscription and she was looking for a lump sum deal. They remained in the family hands unpublished until john simon convinced the family that they should become public. She lived for a good number of years afterwards, was she an active first lady . Did she advise other first ladies . Or did she basically become a private citizen after . She still did a lot of entertaining initially. Her son fred was appointed ambassador to austria and she joins him over there and then comes back to the United States. She wrote several articles for different magazines after the spanish american war. She writes an article that talks about the governments and the nations responsibility to the windows and orphans of the war. Norma in newcastle indiana, your question . Yes. I was wondering about whether or not there was a relationship between julia and ulysses and the confederate general long street . Long street was a distant cousin of julius. So when grant was first courting julia at white have been, was also stationed at jefferson barracks. Theres a possibility, although the record is not clear, that he served as a grossman and grants wedding. The tomb was dedicated april 22nd 1987. At his passing handed the country mourn him . I believe it was the largest funeral ever held in the country. Larger than lincolns . Yes. They brought his body into new york city and then buried his body in a temporary tomb in a park in new york city and began the effort to get the money to build a tone we know today. Julie attended . Yes. What was her role in all of that . Proud widow and pleased to see the nation recognizing her husband. As we close here we have looked at a long and distinguished military career, a life of many ups and downs for the grants overtime, eight years in the white house, a successful world tour, hes very celebrated. What is the legacy of julia grant and how does she fit into the pantheon of first ladies we are studying and learning about this year . Well, they are all women who basically support what their husband is trying to achieve. She did it with certain splendor in a very difficult time in American History and a turn of a knob in a very dark period during early reconstructions. She brightened things for the rest of the century i think. Her image in the white house, her public popularity, her featuring of the general and the way she did things, the personal way she was, that she was very significant first lady in that way. A public first lady. After coming from just after the victorian fainting first ladies. Is she a harbinger of the modern first lady in any way . Its very difficult to answer. I think they were all opinionated, strong women, most all of them. Perhaps in a way. She had public interests. Yes, i would say so. The next people morsel with mrs. Hayes but i think juliet grant attracted a lot of attention and Public Opinion to the family that lived in the white house. What is your answer to that question . I think she wouldve said her legacy was that she was a devoted and loving wife and mother to their children. But i think more than that, she tried to represent what her husband was trying to achieve, peace and reconciliation in the nation. In her role as first lady, she was able to accomplish that. Many thanks to all the folks at the grant sites around the country who helped us bringing new video tonight and to the good people at the White House Historical association who are our partners for the series. That concludes our discussion of julia dent grant, our thanks to our two guests for being with us. Thanks very much. Thank you