Transcripts For CSPAN3 FAA Administrator Stephen Dickson Testifies On Plane Safety 20240712

Are sold. Faa administer testifies about airplane Safety Standards and oversight. The Senate Transportation committee is investigating the faas safety certification process after two deadly crashes involving the boeing 737 max aircraft in 2019. From earlier today, this is just over two hours and 45 minutes. Good morning. Today the committee convenes for a hearing on the federal Aviation Administrations oversight of aircraft certification. I welcome our witnesses, faa administer steve dixon and michael stumo, father of samyo who tragically died and thank them for participating. March 10th marched the oneyear anniversary of the crash of ethiopians flight 382. The aircraft involved in both accidents was the boeing 737 max. Our deepest sympathies continue to go out to the families of those loved ones who are among the 346 souls lost in these crashes. Since the Ethiopian Airlines crash, the committee has heard from many whistleblowers at the faa, at boeing and in the Aviation Industry. It is increasingly clear from our investigation that the faa has a number of Serious Problems to address. My investigation staff has interviewed dozens of witnesses, reviewed many thousands of documents and emails and been diligent in pursuit of these facts. No matter where they lead. However, i must express my profound frustration with the agencys lack of responsiveness to most of my requests. Dating back to last april, for documents that stem from whistleblower disclosures. On april 2nd, 2019, i sent then acting administer Daniel Elwell a letter about training and certification of the aviation safety inspectors. Following the responses to my initial request, i sent a followup letter on july 31st, 2019, to acting administrator elwell. These 65 specific items included such serious matters of allegations of whistleblower retaliation by senior faa managers. Nearly one year later we have received complete responses for about 10 of those items. And partial responses for another 30 . We have not received any response to over half of these requests. Given the subject matter of todays hearing, i would note that 12 of the requests that faa has not responded to pertain directly to the 737 max certification. Directly to todays subject matter. On august 1st, 2019, Committee Staff asked the department of transportation, d. O. T. Counsel, to identify which item of the requests each production was responsive to and whether the protection represented a complete response. This request has been reiterated several times but has not been consistently followed by d. O. T. The committee has made every effort to aid and document production. Back in september of 2019, the Committee Staff sent the faa a prioritized list of ten of the most significant requests. Ten. Two of these ten items were emphasized again on december 18, 2019. Over the course of nine months, we have received completed responses to two prioritized requests. Partial responses to six and no response at all to two of the top ten items. In one case, staff requested emails between two faa employees during a short period of time. The agency provided a response but did not include a specific email we were pursuing. Additional narrowing to a specific date by staff was required to produce the specific emails sought. The faa has still not produced the additional emails between these employees that i requested on july 31st, 2019. Today is june 17th. We have not received any documents since april 27th of this year. The lack of timely and complete responses to our document requests force the staff to seek faa staff interviews beginning in october of 2019. The d. O. T. Response in handling of the interview requests has been very slow. In seven months, our Investigations Team has been able to interview only four faa Staff Members of the 21 we have requested to interview. And then came the virus. Recognizing the covid19 impact on april 6th, 2020, Committee Staff requested to move forward with brief written interrogatories of multiple faa employees to expedite gathering information with minimal impact on involved parties. D. O. T. Staff did not provide a definitive answer on the feasibility of written interrogatories until april 30th, almost a month later. When they stated that inperson interviews were preferred. On may 5th, as a result of d. O. T. Rejecting the interrogatory approach, the Committee Staff requested to interview the next faa employee. On may 11th, d. O. T. Staff stated that they were working to make the next interviewee available. That was may 5th. As of today, june 17th, 2020, Committee Staff have not heard back on when this interview can take place. In our telephone conversation last thursday, i raised a number of these matters. And spoke of our frustration generally. You promised that your team would work with my staff quickly to get back on track. I am extremely disappointed that we have not made significant progress since that phone call. My staff followed up immediately after our call to set up a meeting with the staff member you identified. That request was acknowledged but no attempt was made to set up the meeting. Last friday evening, my staff reiterated our meeting request and provided a comprehensive list of all outstanding document and interview requests. My team asked to schedule a call on monday which was denied but your team offered to meet this thursday, tomorrow, one day after this hearing. The entire purpose or the large purpose of the meeting was to get answer before this hearing, not wait until after its conclusion. Its my understanding that our teams did speak last night after my staff insisted on the timely nature of the call. But no progress was made on resolving the multitude of outstanding issues. This record of delay and nonresponsiveness shows at best an unwillingness to cooperate in congressional oversight. It is hard not to conclude your team at the faa had deliberately attempted to keep us in the dark and that and by that i mean our investigation staff, our committee, and me. It is hard not to characterize our relationship during this entire process as being adversarile on the part of the faa. During your confirmation hearing, i asked this question as we ask all nominees, quote, if confirmed, will you pledge to work collaboratively with this committee and provide thorough and timely responses, unquote. You answered yes as we require all nominees to do. The lack of cooperation by your agency calls into question the commitment behind that pledge. We are not embarking on a fishing expedition. Our request for documents and interviews had been very specific in content and reasonable in scope. I can only assume that the agency stonewalling of my investigation suggests discomfort for what might ultimately be revealed. I expect to receive an explanation today at this hearing for the failure to comply with the committees request. As i mentioned, part of the committees investigation involves the 737 max. Following the Ethiopian Airlines crash, the faa grounded the fleet of 737 max airplanes. Over a year later, the plane has still not been cleared to return to passenger service. The faa, boeing, and International Regulators involved in the recertification process should take whatever time is needed to get the recertification right. As the recertification continues, a number of reviews including this committees investigation have raised concerns about how the max was designed and certified, how pilots were trained, and the nature of the relationship between the faa and boeing. The faa needs to hold accountable anyone at the agency or at boeing who broke the rules or fell short of meeting expectations. Last october this committee was the first on capitol hill to convene an oversight hearing with boeing leadership. Today we will hear from administrator dickson on what happened. The steps that the agency is taking to return the max to safe flight and how they can prevent future tragedies. The recertification is a critical component of rebuilding trust in the faa. Before the max crashes, the faa was the unquestioned Gold Standard with regard to aviation safety. Congress has an Important Role to play in helping restore the confidence in the agency. As a result of the committees investigations and findings from the National Transportation safety board from the joint authorities technical review and from the department of transportation, the rank pg memb Ranking Member and i have worked together and introduced legislation to improve aviation safety. Our legislation creates a new requirement for manufacturers to prioritize safety. It reforms the Organization Design authorization system, it creates a new emphasize on understanding how pilots interact with modern aircraft and other Human Factors, enhances protection for whistleblowers and bolsters congressional oversight. This monday, day before yesterday, the Ranking Member staff requested that you be allowed to testify. In spite of the latest of this request, we were able to accommodate such a request by adding a second panel for him. I look forward to a detailed discussion of the faas aircraft certification process and how it can be improved so these tragedies do not happen. I also expect an explanation of the agencys unwillingness to respond to this committees request for information. I recognize my friend and colleague and Ranking Member senator cantwell for her Opening Statement. Thank you for your statement. I want to say that the as Ranking Member, we stand with you for any information requests and efforts to get the faa to comply with what the majority has been requesting. Thank you for that statement. I want to take a moment to recognize the families who have lost loved ones in the Ethiopians Airlines tragedy. I appreciate your vigilance, just as i have appreciated the families who have attended our meetings. We thank you for doing it. All of the voices in these efforts to make our skies safer are important. I also look forward to hearing the testimony. We have to get this right for his daughter and the 346 victims of those crashes. Todays discussion is about leadership, about restoring americas leadership in aviation safety. Safety is job one. Its job one in a critical sector that employs 2. 5 million people, 150,000 in the state of washington, but safety is job one because it involves so many lives. The Leadership Task begins with the faa and you, administrator dickson. We look forward to hear about how you will improve safety in response to these two accidents will be undertaken. There have been numerous reports issued since the accidents and unfortunately the response to a number of those investigations seem more a ridged acceptance of the status quo than the needed changes that we want to see at the faa. No matter what the structure of the faa, it must be clear that it is an independent agency with oversight of certification. We need to have the best workforce, which i believe we do, in the northwest. But we must have experts and investigators that are qualified and technically trained at the faa to oversee in a sufficient manner the compliance process. Now, theres a lot of discussion about wall street and the approach to aviation of value engineering. Im going to tell you something about the northwest, the pride of the northwest is about innovation and solid engineering and solid engineering advancements. It is not about doing things on the quick. It is about doing things deliberately and getting safety right. And i want to see a certification process where we are listening to those engineers at the beginning of the process who are calling out some of these safety issues. The faa management needs to be willing to back up those engineers on the ground who are calling out safety concerns at the earliest phases of the process not at the end and certainly not after certification. The faa system of delegation dates back to 1958. It could traced back to 1927 when private doctors were used to conduct private health checks. However, it was the faas own action taking authority in the delegation of manufacture for technical approval that started in 2005 over the oda system. Under this program, the industry engineers acts on behalf of the faa. These lines of oversight and communication were fragmented. I believe, and i think the chairman believes as well, we need a system of certification where hardworking engineers and engineering safety is driving the certification process not the other way around. We cant have planes certified and then after the certification have them grounded because of unsafe features. A technical review by the International Safety authoritys joint Authority Technical review identified a number of problems with the oda program and faa oversight specifically the need for a more holistic review and the fact that engineering expertise needed to have open Communication System and the Technology Level the Technical Expertise level of those engineers needed to be there. So, mr. Dickson, today, i hope we will hear about what the faa believes needs to be remind in this program, what reforms of those suggested by chairman wicker and myself do you support. I want to thank chairman wicker and his team and my team for working so collaboratively with us and their hard work in introducing this legislation that the chairman just mentioned. I believe it does fundamentally change the way the faa oversees the certification of large commercial aircraft. Specifically, our bill, the airport safety and certification act of 2020, will revamp the oda and make sure that the faa stays in the drivers seat of certification. Under our bill, the faa will once again be responsible for directly appointing and improving the engineers who are tasked with carrying out the certification on behalf of the administrator. In addition, the faa will assign safetily providers to oversee this and create a new whistleblower protection to fortify the channels of communication and reporting safety. Critically, our bill will end any semblance of selfcertification by repealing sections that would give the faa Additional Authority for delegation. Our bill also requires implementation of the ntsb recommendatio recommendations safety administer. I believe these new standards would address the issues of multiple flight alerts and the need for Pilot Training. I want to thank senator duckworth for her work with me on this act. The faa must keep pace with the skills and have the technical capacity to handle an increasingly complex airport technology. Automation has certainly helped safety, but the amount of automation and uncontrolled commands and alerts can be confusing particularly when you only have seconds to respond. So understanding the interactions between Human Technology and operation environment is becoming more critical to safety in aviation. That is why the bill with chairman wicker also establishes a center of excellence for flight automation and Human Factors and creates an office, the faa office of continuing education and training, to make sure that those inspectors maintain and keep the expertise necessary to do the oversight that is required by the faa. We also need science and technical advisers to address these developing new technologies. With technology changing, building skills is important and i want to thank the senator for introducing the building capacity act which will increase global pilot standards in the faas bilateral to improve Pilot Training. The United States need to be loud and clear that we want to see strong airmenship. That is to say, a pilot needs to be able to fly the plane without the automation. And i hope that we and you will help lead that effort on an international basis. We also need a strong aviation workforce for the future and that is why ive partnered with senator blunt with the National Air Grant Fellowship Program which would create an aerospace policy fellowship and leader for the future act. Its clear the race for aviation around the globe is on. But we cannot have that race for competition drive us away from a solid safety and certification regime. The solution to that competition, i believe, is to hire and retain the best Safety Experts that we can find. So i look forward to hearing the ways in which you believe the faa needs to improve the process. Again, i want to thank you chairman wicker for his leadership on the bill that we just introduced and thank him for his focus on this issue. We do need to hold manufacturers accountable for compliance and Safety Standards through the process. I look forward to continuing to work with him on that. We need to have certain design features that we know are compliant with the air worthiness standard. No one wants to see a process where at the end of the process its not clear that the data indicates actual compliance. I will have many questions about this. Mr. Dickson, today, were looking forward to the leadership that you will provide in addressing these issues. Safety has to be paramount and the faa has to be independent. Thank you for being here and i look forward to hearing from both our witnesses. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator cantwell. Administrator, im sure you will want to respond to many of the statements made in my Opening Statement. But specifically just to reiterate, my staff began this effort on july 31st of last year and as i pointed out, weve received no response to over half of the items requested even after we narrowed down the scope of our request significantly. There has been a lack of cooperation. So please explain to the committee your position in this regard and well have followup questions also, sir. Good morning, mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member cantwell, members of the committee. Thank you for sir, you have an Opening Statement, and feel free to summarize that in five minutes also. I neglected that step. Yes, sir. Please proceed. Thank you for inviting me here to speak with you about the faas oversight of aircraft certification and to provide you with an update on the 737 max. First, i want to assure the families of those who lost their lives in the accidents that you and your loved ones are foremost in our thoughts. I think of you every day and it is good to see michael and the other family members with us this morning. The Lessons Learned from these accidents will lead to increased safety worldwide. Our pledge is not only in words but in the implementation of tangible and lasting improvements that will result in part from the observations and recommendations weve received from many review bodies, including this committee. Before i turn to the focus of the hearing, i would like to take a moment to address some of the challenges the Aviation Industry has faced during the Ongoing Public Health emergency. Aviation employees have worked diligently these past months, despite the risk to themselves, to safely transport passengers and much needed supplies. Now the traveler demand is beginning to return, the faa fully sports and strongly encourages the industrys adoption of precautions to protect employee and passenger health. The senators for Disease Control and prevention as well as international Public Health agencies advise that face coverings are important in situations where social distancing is not feasible. Secretary chao and the department of transportation have been clear that air passengers should wear face coverings and we expect the traveling public to follow directions and airline Public Health policies. Well continue to apply our expertise to help lead efforts with other federal agencies, industry, and our International Partners to address Public Health risks in the air transportation system. With respect to aircraft certification and our evaluation of the 737, we follow a process driven by a review of boeings proposed modifications. In the u. S. , our return to Service Decision will rest solely on the faas analysis of boeings work in these areas. At the same time we continue to provide assistance and work closely with our International Counterparts as they make their own evaluations. Ultimately when the aircraft resumes passenger flights, it will be because safety issues have been addressed and because pilots around the world have received the training that they need to safely operate the aircraft. Before that happens, the faa must conduct a certification flight test and complete a Pilot Training assessment by the joint operations Evaluation Board which includes the faa as well as our International Partners and pilots from u. S. And foreign air carriers. Once that assessment is complete, the faas boeing 737 flight standardization board will issue a report addressing the findings. The faa and the Advisory Board will review all final design documentation. The last steps before the faa to approve each u. S. Carriers updated Pilot Training program, issued a notification to the international community, and publish a directive requiring actions. As i said many times, i will not sign off on this aircraft until all faa technical reviews are complete. I also intend to pilot the aircraft myself before the faa makes any ungrounding decision. Beyond the max, our commitment to improve the margin of safety for the Aviation Industry will start with aircraft certification but will be much broader. The faa provided the committee with its action plan in response to the recommendations of the secretarys special committee to review the faas aircraft certification process. The plan describes the faas actions, both planned and under way to address not only the recommendations from the special committee, but also the joint authorities technical review, the ntsb, the Indonesian National Traffic Safety committee and the faas own findings. Beyond certification, the faa is tackling interconnected safety issues not only in the United States but internationally as well. Were prepared to take the lead in this new phase of worldwide safety. For example, we presented a working paper last year on Pilot Training and automation dependency. This material was recently added into an iko proposal and the formation of a personnel training and licensing panel. Our action plan focuses on ten areas for safety, including Safety Management systems, data and innovation and we have aligned our budget requests to support this activity. Were asking to recruit additional employees such as Human Factors experts and Software Engineers and will invest additional money to bolster improvements to information sharing programs. Ive said many times that safety is a journey not a destination. We must never allow ourselves to become complacent. We must keep in mind the passengers and loved ones for whom we work. This concludes my statement. Thank you, very much, mr. Administrator. Lets go ahead, then, and sort of jump the gun a few moments ago. Senator cantwell and i normally reserve our opening marks to five minutes. This is the tone of my remarks today, i think, people would recognize at not really our style. But i hope you understand, mr. Administrator, the very serious way that i see the lack of response from our agency. And so i will certainly give you an opportunity to respond to my complaints in my Opening Statement and to the ones ive mentioned to you personally over the phone. Again, my Investigative Team began their work july 31st and have received no response to over half of the items in the request. Do you view this as acceptable and can you explain to the committee what has happened in the faa in this regard. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i always appreciate the opportunity for dialogue. As you mentioned, our conversation last thursday, and our Oversight Team had connected with your staff last night and i believe that will put us in a position to make progress. As ive said many times and im totally committed to the oversight process. I realize its an important matter for you. You made youve made that clear. You made it doubly clear this morning and i appreciate that. I also want you to know its very important to the agency and its a responsibility i take very seriously. In my i believe its inaccurate to portray the agency as unresponsive. We have provide responses in the i believe seven major subject areas in the july request. There is still ongoing work and i would just point out that we have a number of investigations under way that were already supporting the ntsb and others and some of the information requests have to implicate matters within those investigations and we certainly dont want to prejudice the outcome of those. However, were going to redouble our efforts. I hear your frustration and thats not okay with me. Thats not thats not where we want to be. I am trying to promote a culture both within the agency and really with all of our stakeholders of transparency and openness and this is an opportunity for us to do that. I look forward to continuing to work with you to raise the bar on aviation safety again in the u. S. And globally. Well, i would reiterate that the climate in your agency with regard to the requests for information and documents from this committee and from our staff has been most unsatisfactory. For example, we asked for copies of emails between two parties and were asked to make that more specific. And then when we pinpoint the very day and time of the email, the response from employees at faa has been a reluctance to supply that to us. Now, we have an important responsibility to the taxpayers. This is a part of our constitutional responsibility to provide oversight. And to me, theres no excuse for that. Let me make this suggestion to you, mr. Administrator. It would seem to me beneficial if you could name one specific senior person under your supervision to be the contact with our staff directors on this matter. And that person would be responsible for making sure the agency provided satisfactory responses, be reportable to you, and my staff director would be reportable to me, and at least there would be a direct conduit of information and requests directly from the senior staff person to you, the administer. Would you be willing to agree to that procedure based on my frustration . Mr. Chairman, we will set up a process to have more dynamic communication as you suggest. But im making a specific i understand. Suggestion to you and youre not willing to accept that at this point. Mr. Chairman, we will agree to that. Okay. I appreciate it. Senator cantwell. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Administrator dickson, i would like to ask several questions just to get you on the record on changes that we would like to see at the faa both in the legislation weve proposed and things that we think continue to need to be addressed beyond this legislation. If you could help me out with as much yes and no, that would be so helpful. Should aircraft manufacturers be accountable for compliance of design data submit today the faa approval, yes or no . Yes. Okay. Do you believe that this accountability should exist throughout the certification process, not just at the end of the certification process when safety concerns are harder to address and designs are tougher to rework and correct . Without speaking to the specifics, im not knowledgeable on some of the details youre referring to. But i believe the holistic approach that you referred would produce that result. The answer is yes . Yes. Applicants must certify that data complies with air worthiness standards. Yes. If the faa receives a report of noncompliance, they should ensure that corrective action is taken prior to issuing a certification. Yes. If noncompliance is discovered after an issuance of certificate, do you believe the manufacturer should be required to correct it for future production of aircraft. Thats in the continuing operational safety realm and thats what our process provides for, yes. Okay. Well, certainly i have concerns that thats not whats taken place in the past and its good to hear that thats what you think should take place now. I think the end result of aircraft certification process is, you know, the faa approval of a you know, the approval of the Type Certificate. But we want to make sure that as we go through this process and one of the failures of the 737 max which is just unacceptable, is that we need to make sure that that compliance and air worthiness requirements are met. Do you agree that the purpose of the aircraft certification is to achieve compliance . Yes. Okay. And in order to achieve compliance, the faa must validate the design data is compliant with standards . Its compliance with individual rules, it is not necessarily produce a safe outcome and thats what were trying to deal with. I agree from the holistic perspective. Im trying to point out that the process that we have today between the beginning of the process on the Type Certificate and the final air worthiness approval, certainly in the max situation didnt catch the problems and certainly had information thats why this data and your questions and answers to that are so important and hopefully that will help us in moving forward on this legislation. If i could ask you now about the bill that senator wicker and i introduced. Do you agree that in order to raise the bar, the faa should be directly appointing these oda members . Senator, the without commenting specifically on the bill, i think that we need to certainly take a Systems Approach and, you know, we need to have strong oversight of the oda. We already approved mr. Dickson, im not as genteel as the chairman who resides from the state where genteel approaches exist and are perfected. Im a little more blunt. I dont want to be stonewalled here. Do you believe the faa should retain and appoint these individuals and oversee them in the process, yes or no . Its not something that we certainly approve their qualifications and their background. The individual selection is not something that i believe would add to the safety of the process, but it is something that we are certainly anxious to work with the committee on and see if theres a way that we can add that in. Mr. Dickson, a little hard ill have to view you through the lens here because this gentleman, but this is the very point. We need an independent faa. We need the lines of communication between these whistleblowers or whoever it is on the engineering, you know the member who was on the ground who says, look, this is a problem. He needs to be backed up by the faa. But if you dont have a direct line to that employee and you dont approve him in the final and you dont oversee his work and you dont have the right expertise at the faa, then hes not going to be backed up by you. Could not agree more. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator blunt. Thank you, chairman. On this topic of just being responsive, im sure you know that this is really a concern to every member of the committee and youve heard that clearly today. I hope that the process you and the chairman have agreed to actually produces a different result. But often the request is not that hard to respond to and it just agencies continue to create problems for themselves and difficulties for us by not just responding with information that i have as opposed to analyzing whether you should respond with that to that request. There is virtually never a question that eventually youre going to be required to respond or that you should respond or that the law requires you to respond or that when you testified along with many others at your confirmation hearing you agreed to always respond and always respond quickly. If that question is not asked at a confirmation hearing, its an oversight. And you heard some of that today. Im sure you and colleagues around this department and many others can never hear enough of that because its a constant problem, almost always selfinflicted by an agencys refusal to have someone who will take responsibility. So maybe your agreement today to allow that to happen really important. I may go over a little of what senator cantwells already asked about. But on the oda office, do you think that the legislation thats been introduced by the chairman and the Ranking Member for additional oversight mechanisms would benefit the process of how oda personnel and procedures are approved . Thank you for the question, senator. And there are many elements of the proposed legislation that are exactly on point in terms of implementing systematic approaches and strong oversight and data driven process between the manufacturer and the faa. Also strengthening the work force aspects, what we need is system approach, system thinking as engineers, Human Factors, individuals. Those Additional Resources would be very helpful. We worked to get the 2018 faa act, all the members, but i chaired the subcommittee at the time and she was leading democrat on the subcommittee that brought this legislation forward. Can you give me an update on how the implementation of the 2018 act as it relates to these programs has occurred and as the faa implementation created any changes to its implemented agent is to do oversight of the odas since the 737 crashes. Yes, senator. The oda office has been was implemented within the last year, and we have set up the framework and the process to essentially oversee and audit all 79 odas. And we have money in our budget request for the upcoming fiscal year to continue to gdevelop an permanently staff that office. Weve also recently selected a project manager who will be reporting to me quarterly on the execution around a lot of the issues that are in the proposed legislation that will hit the same themes from the joint authoritys technical review and the ntsb recommendation. You mentioned on recertifying the plan were talking about that you would fly that yourself before it was recertified . What kind of special information or training would a skilled pilot like you need before he got in the cockpit of a plane that was in the process of being certified again . Well, senator, ive got quite a bit of flying time on the 737 on previous versions, and ive been out to in my first month on the job went out to seattle and have flown the various profiles. So, im very familiar with the system. Also, my deputy and i will be completing the same Simulator Training that the joint operations Evaluation Board pilots will be going through. And then ill complete a flight profile on the aircraft as well. So, we will have several days of preparation to get ready for that event. Okay. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator blunt. Senator klobuchar joins us remotely. Thank you very much senator cantwell for holding this hearing, and administrator dickson, thank you for being here. And i want to acknowledge the families out there. Im so glad i know that senator cantwell worked to have mr. Stewman testify. I think your courage coming forward is going to make a difference not just for your family but for so many families out there. I wanted to start, mr. Dickson, these two tragic plane crashes as we know, 737 max8 indonesia and ethiopia took the lives of many people including one of my constituents. At the committees hearing in october, i expressed concerns of the findings from the report from the department of transportations Inspector General. I found that the faa conducted oversight of only 4 of employees responsible for conducting the certification. The same report found that one manufacturer approved about 95 of the certifications for its own aircraft. Knowing this program contributed to the faas oversight failure for the 737 max certification, are you concerned how widely the program is used for certifications and how little oversight there is . I guess the second question would be, you know, you release the plans to improve the certification process, but it would not change the program by which the faa delegates authority or really addresses undue pressure for manufacturers. So, could you talk about where you are. Thank you for your questions, senator. I share your perspective on the families. And as i said we owe it to them and to the public to do this right. With respect to the amount of delegation, it depends on the you know, delegation, the oda process is based on trust. And i would say its a trust but verify system. And its a privilege. It has to be earned. And early in its certification process there is typically only very routine items that are delegated. There are four parts of the certification process in terms of establishing the certification basis and actually the only part thats actually delegated is analysis and testing. And those are the items that you see as we see data as a process continues over a period typically of 5 to 7 years in most cases that there may be an opportunity to delegate additional items in terms of certification analysis and testing only. The undue pressure issue is what im concerned about, given what we saw with that internal serving at boeing where 1 3 of the employees said they felt this pressure. Well, i think thats an extremely important issue. We continue to investigate instances of undue pressure. But specifically this is why Safety Management systems are so important, because the only way to address that culture issue is by increasing the ability for front line folks both within the agency frankly and within the manufacturer to bring issues forward in real time. And one of the benefits of Safety Management systems is that it puts safety responsibility where it belongs at the highest levels of the manufacturer. It also promotes transparency. All right. If i could just move on, mr. Dickson, i dont see the timer here, but im going to ask you just two quick more questions. In september, the ntsb noted in its report that the underlying assumptions made about how pilots would react under certain conditions were severely flawed. The assumptions were. And have you started looking at the approval of other aircraft, non nonboeing aircraft or other boeing aircraft based on the recommendations on the pilot assumptions. To me anyone whos not a pilot saw this as a problem. Thats a great question, Human Factors and pilot performance. The pilot integral to the design of the aircraft is something we are reviewing very closely as part of not only the return of service of the max but also our certifications processes in general. Its a key pillar of our strategy. Okay. Last, in january the special committee excision hadded by secretary chow to review the process recommended the faa should expand efforts to improve international standards. This bill was already referenced with senator moran and senator capito and of course senator cantwell and im one of the cosponsors to help improve international Pilot Training. Do you agree that the faa should work with International Partners to develop International Pilot and Safety Standards for the work force and agency. I think we all know as we know from my constituent dying in that crash that no one is immune. Our americans are going to be on flights all over the world. Yes, senator. Wholeheartedly agree. The effort i talked about before is the activity were already undertaking in this area and we look forward to continuing to engage both bilaterally and regionally on Pilot Training and qualification issues around the world. Thank you, senator klobuchar. I would note that technically our clock is supposed to be on the screens, so well ill fix it. Ill fix it. Next is senator fisher also joining us remotely. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Administrator dickson, welcome this morning. Good to have you here. The joint authorities technical review said that the faa was not completely unaware of mcas but because the information and discussions about mcas were so fragmented were delivered to disconnect groups, it was difficult to recognize the impacts and the implications of the system. Last october, i asked thenboeing president and ceo about that permutation between boeing and faa which he responded that boeing need to make changes to improve communications of the agencies. Do you agree that the communication between boeing and faa, that it was fragmented to the point that relevant information was not provided to the agency . And if so, how will steps that you have outlined such as a Safety Management system and a, quote, just culture improve that . Thank you for the question, senator. Couple of points there. I agree that and i think our reviews and the other reviews have shown that information was presented in a fragmented manner and it was difficult to follow the entire thread. And this was part of one of the major issues that were dealing with. Within the agency, we have recently taken steps to have our pilots and our Flight Standards group involved earlier in the certification process throughout. This is part of our effort to make sure that Human Factors considerations are taken into account and integrated into the design process. As you mentioned, Safety Management systems as i mentioned a few minutes ago, are probably the biggest game changer in my experience in terms of turning a culture around and making it more transparent and focused, again, at the highest levels and throughout the organization on safety and quality. And it also puts the agency in a much stronger position in terms of being able to oversee the entire certification process because its less transactional. Its not, you know, a question and answer. Its actually a data feed where were actually privy to the picture as the program progresses. So, theres a lot that goes into that. Again, data is very important and communications are very important. But that will definitely put us in a much better place. And also, mr. Dickson, were seeing that aircraft are becoming more automated, and that means that theres more systems that can affect the aircraft controls without any kind of pilot input. During a hearing last year, d. O. T. Inspector general testified that, quote, reliance on automation is a growing concern among Industry Experts who have questioned whether pilots receive enough training and enough experience to maintain manual flying proficiency. Do you share that concern about automation . I do. And automation is a benefit, and it has led it has been part of the improvement in aviation safety that we have seen over the years. But the individual still have to be engaged with the machine. To the extent that were overreliant and we lose Situational Awareness flying the airplane, you still have to manage your flight path and stay mentally engaged with the aircraft. Theres a balance and thats why integrating Human Factors and human capabilities into aircraft design has always been important but its more important now and ogoing to the future than it ever has been. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, senator fischer. Senator shots. Thank you. Mr. Dickson, i wanted to change the topic a little bit from certification reform to flying safety during the pandemic. The International Civil Aviation Organization recently issued recommendations for travel during the pandemic, and i just want to get your views on those recommendations and what the faa is going to do to integrate that into their process. Well, thank you for the question, senator schatz. And actually those recommendations were the result of work that we did in the agency and brought forth to iko through the iko council on Aviation Task force. I selected by deputy administrator to lead that effort and he worked with the council and with authorities around the world to bring those guidelines forward. Were working on a similar process within the u. S. Government and certainly involving the cdc and others to have a similar set of measures and guidelines promulgated for travel within the u. S. So that we are when you say measures and guidelines, do you mean rules . Or do you mean guidelines . I mean guidelines as the secretary has said, these will not be regulatory mandates. But they will be very specific. And we expect for air carriers and the public to follow those guidelines as well as airports. And were working with our with the air carriers on this. Were using their Safety Management systems and the data thats coming out of those systems to monitor is this a philosophical thing for you folks . I mean this sincerely. I just dont get why you wouldnt want this to be mandatory. I dont understand why were sort of going with a sort of private sector driven approach here or a voluntary approach or a federalism approach. Is this just a matter of your approach to what the federal government should do . It seems to me when youre talking about aviation, its certainly federal. And when youre talking about a pandemic it falls into the category squarely in the kinds of aviation safety. Its the kind of thing you ought to make mandatory if you come to certain conclusions about how to fly safely. So, what gives here . How come you dont want to make a rule . Well, i appreciate the question, senator. I am coming at this and the agency comes at this from an aviation safety perspective. So, there are many things, theres a lot of data that we have that we get from the commercial aviation carriers, and we need to make sure theres not an impact on aviation safety. With respect to Public Health, thats the cdc and of course they have responsibilities for sectors of transportation and really the entire Public Health situation that goes well beyond aviation. So, we are acting as a facilitator in that process. But if there is a nexxus for aviation safety, then we are concerned about that. And thats what we are working with the carriers on and in the intera int interagency process within the government to make sure we have consistent guidelines out there. Okay. I got it. Look, we have a difference of opinion here. I think im hoping well be able to get some bipartisan support for some mandatory rules here, but i dont want to chew up all my time. I want to ask two more quick questions. Is flying safe from the standpoint of coronavirus . Yes, i believe so. Again, we all have a role to play. We have to protect each other. And again, the air carriers and the airports and tsa and all stakeholders out there, the faas air traffic organization, we have to make sure that we are operating the system safely and consistently and predictable. Thank you. One final question. On may 1st, the d. C. Circuit ruled in the case of Hawaii Coalition that the faa must establish air tour management plans for all covered parks within two years. Im assuming that you will implement that as soon as possible and especially in those parks where there is an area of contention . Yes, senator. We are familiar with the ruling, and i believe that we are working with the park service now and have a preliminary plan that will be presented on august 30th. Thank you, sensor. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Senator moran. Thank you, thank you for being here. To the second panel, to the witnesses there, condolences from me and my colleagues in the committee. We thank you for your presence here today to help us better understand the importance of the decisions that the faa and that congress may make in regard to airline safety. Weve come a long way in that regard but recognize its a neverending attempt to advance safety and im pleased that youre here. Im sorry youre here for the reason that you are. Let me first indicate chairman wicker, thank you for your efforts. I dont know exactly the information that youre seeking from the faa, but im always pleased with congressional efforts are made for greater oversight, and please consider me an ally in any way that i can be of help in the effort to make sure that the faa and other agencies respond to congressional inquiries. Mr. Dickson, you have been useful to me, valuable to me, and your responses, our opportunities to have conversations both in person before covid19 and subsequently by phone, and i thank you for that. Im surprised. I certainly am not at all suggesting that anything but safety should drive the recertification process, but it surprises me how long its taken, and it surprises me because i assume that the plane which was previously certified, the 737 max, it should if it was already certified, it seems to me that the changes necessary to satisfy the needs for safety would be rather modest. And i guess im asking is that just a false assumption that fsh and if so, how did we get to a point in which the magnitude of the problems with the 737 max were so great that its taking a significantly long time to get them fixed . And tell me again, during our last conversation, you indicated midsummer. Is that still the case . And has covid19 slowed down the process in recertification . Thanks for the question, senator. To your last point, we are not on any sort of timeline. We are narrowing the issues and we have not had any impact with covid19 up to this point. When we get to the joint operations Evaluation Board, that involves International Pilots and International Travel. So, there are a couple of alternatives that were looking at to have the processes in place to be able to support that work. But up to this point the process has proceeded without interruption. One of the you raised a great question, and i think it needs to be clear that the redesign of the airplane is not just limited to changing functionality. The entire Flight Control system beginning boeing undertook this in the june july time frame of last year, became a much more ambitious project. And theres much redundancy. The Flight Control computers in pitch compare their signals dynamically. Thats an extremely ambitious project. And as we have moved forward, when you make a system like that more robust, what happens is it implicates their interdependencies with other subsystems on the aircraft that have to be taken into account. So, you know, again, this is we have moved forward, i think, very diligently and very carefully. And as you know, we have retained all matters within the faa including we will issue the worthiness certificates ourselves. But thats why this is such a journey that weve been on. Well, administrator, i am in no way suggesting anything but safety should drive the time frame. And the question was really and we can have this conversations ourselves does the magnitude of the changes necessary, does it suggest that the certification initially was significantly flawed to begin with . And ill be glad to follow up. I want to just touch on a couple of other things in the 30 seconds i have left. I want to explore with you and will submit a question in writing about how do we get the faa to be in a better position to adopt new innovations and move in advancing aviation safety through technology. I think theres some significant opportunities and i want to make sure that we dont lose the chance to pursue those innovations as we pursue certification. The work force in kansas but across the country is damaged. Its absence is noted. Furloughs are prevalent across our aviation and Aerospace Industry in wichita in South Central kansas but elsewhere in our state as well. We are working to find a path for a Public Private partnership that keeps the employees in place and on a payroll. I would seek your advice and suggestions in that regard. And finally i appreciate senator cantwells cooperation along with senator capito in regard to senate bill 3959. Because of the lack of time that i have, i guess theres no time left, ill follow up with you in writing unless we have a second round of questions. Thank you, senator moran. Before i go to senator blumenthal, let me remind members that we have a series of two votes beginning at 11 45. Ive talked with senator cantwell. Our intention is simply to share the gafvel, proceed on and do te best we can to conclude both panels of this hearing. We are required by the next committee to surrender this room no later than 1 00, and i feel surely that well be able to do that. But and i also appreciate members being so thoughtful as to the fiveminute time frame with the questions. Senator blumenthal, you are recognized. Thanks, mr. Chairman. Im going to be even less genteel than senator cantwell. I find your responses, with all due respect, administrator dickson, to be totally unsatisfactory. The culture of secrecy at the faa has only been aggravated under your tenure. You have completely refused to respond to any of my letters requesting information, not even an explanation neither there nor here. I see no way you can continue in this job if you fail to be more responsive to this committee. And i think it begins today with a commitment to end that culture of secrecy, to commit to major reforms of the kind that the chairman and Ranking Member have suggested in their legislation. I welcome it because it includes stronger protections for whistleblowers such as i suggested in the bipartisan in the reform proposal that i advance with support from senators marquee, udall and feinstein. Minimum qualifications for the engineers performing work on the units. Minimum addressing concerns about compensation and bonuses for meeting performance goals. The fact of the matter is that the faa has been complicit in these crashes by failing to do more diligent oversight. Its almost been like a dog watching tv. And there have to be reforms that take back major swaths of the authority that have been delegated. The faa has to do the work, not just oversee it. It has to perform work that involves certification. And so let me ask you first, i can the faa not take back the authority its delegated over critical safety features . Well, senator, i i vehemently disagree with your characterization of my level of desire for transparency, and i just want to reiterate the commitment that i made to the chairman. Ill make it to you as well. We want to collaborate and Work Together with a committee to raise the bar on aviation safety. Critical novel technologies, those are things that are typically not delegated by the agency. As i said in my remarks earlier, testing and analysis typically on more routine matters and early in the certification process are typically delegated. But thats it did delegate that authority with respect to the 737. No, sir. No. Not until very late in the project. Well, late in the project is often the critical phase in the project. Let me move on to another area, and ill invite you to expand on your answer in written responses. Would you join me in supporting a prohibition on pof claims mad on the airline. Right now boeing is taking the position it will deny all claims against it simply because the faa certified the 737. Be happy to work with you on that proposal, senator. Well, i was hoping for a yes. Im not prepared to respond on that point today. Will you join me in supporting time limits on the certificates or certification of specific airline types . I believe youre talking about the change product rule or the Type Certificates. And that is one of the areas that we are looking at and thats harmonized globally with the other states of design. And we are looking at that process. Whether time limits is the most effective way to deal with that remains to be seen. That current rule actually enables safe additions to be brought into very safe existing designs for effectively, and its actually in many cases used less in the u. S. Than other states of design. So, its something well have to look at. Let me just say in concluding left to its own devices the aviation certification system puts corporate profits before consumer safety. And this system has to be radically reformed. Im going to ask that my letter of october 24, 2019 which is among many that you havent answered be put in the record. I hope that you will provide an answer in light of your responses here. Is that a letter i hope you will help to rebuild trust. To the administrator, sir . Is that a letter to the administrator . It is. Without objection. Thank you senator blumenthal. Senator scott. I want to thank you chairman for holding this important hearing. I want to first thank mr. Steube for being here with us today to provide your testimony. My heart goes out to you and your family for your loss. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to come and do this today. Administrator dickson, i want to thank you for being here today and i want to thank you for your efforts to restructure and improve the faa to make sure it will be again be a Global Leader in safety. So, can you talk a little bit about how you restructure the faa to increase accountability and ensure you have the capacity to be the Global Leader in safety and the certification process . Thank you, senator scott. The level of engagement globally in my first few months has been extremely impressive. And im very proud to have the privilege of leading 45,000 professionals at the agency. They are extremely committed. We started out we start out with core values. We are a technical organization. As has been said many times our top priority is safety. Weve got to be driven by core values. Rules arent going to get us where we need to be. Weve got to have an approach where we are transparent. We can have professional disagreements, bullet weve got to have a way to make sure were looking at all sides of every perspective. So one of the things i really pushed is to deal with issues from a one Agency Perspective. What i find and ive seen this in the private sector as well is youll have a department or in my case a line of business or staff office thats pursuing its own goals and objectives and maybe even using its own data. So, what we have to do is take across the entire Agency Perspective because we have a lot of data and there have been a lot of problems solved over the years that have created various pockets. But weve got to be able to see the whole picture. Thats one of the things were really working on. What i mentioned in response to senator klobuchars question gets to this point is a more seamless integration between our Flight Standards group and our aircraft certification group. Thank you. Does your certification process incorporate any cross checking or something similar to you reduce the possibility of factors like human error . Again, yes, thats always been a part of the process. But the what we are looking at as we mentioned in our response to the secretarys special Committee Report is were looking at some of the assumptions around human error and how those can be incorporated into aircraft design all along more effectively. When you think about the in a certification process, are you reassessing the certification process for all aircraft that you certify . Yes, sir. Thats what our all of the reviews that have been done, the work of the committee, the dialogue that we have had internally within the agency, its all leading us to a more robust process. I believe that the biggest thing that we can do is implement Safety Management systems for manufacturers, and we are working on that right now. We plan to initiate rule making on that shortly. And im a big supporter of that. Ive seen the benefits in the airline industry. We need to take those same kinds of benefits into the manufacturing sector. Whats your communication plan to make sure, you know, everybody gets more comfortable, that the faa has changed, and that the certification process works and that its if you get faa certification, your clearly going to be safe. Or as safe as you can be. Weve got aviation, again, is the safest form of travel. Our commercial aviation sector accident rate is down 94 in the last 20 years. And, you know, weve had hundreds of millions of flights here over the last decade with a sterling safety record. One death is one too many, and of course the 346 egg deaths we saw in these two accidents are tragic and unacceptable. So, weve got to keep raising the bar with aviation within the u. S. Weve also got to take the responsibility that u. S. Products are being maintained throughout the world. So, we need to raise that bar around the world as well. Thank you, administrator. Thank you, senator scott. Senator markey. You should have known about the safety of the boeing 737 max before it ever took off. The tragic fate of flight 610 should have led to an immediate grounding of this plane, yet the faa allowed the clearly unsafe 737 max to keep flying for five months after the first crash which killed 189 people. During these five months, the faa repeatedly said it did not have enough data to ground the max. However, we have since learned that the faa conducted an unpublished Risk Assessment after the lyon air tragedy. This report predicted 15 more fatal crashes in the life of the max. 15 more crashes. The faa knew that the 737 max was not safe and still let it fly. The faa knew and it gambled with thousands of lives. The faa only changed course after 157 more people died on the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. But this second tragedy never had to happen. If the faa had been transparent with its data, everyone would have demanded the max be grounded before a second crash. It is now your responsibility to make sure the faa is completely transparent while it reviews whether to unground the max. Will you commit to making every document and study related to the ungrounding of 737 max public . Senator, i appreciate the question. The document that youre referring to is actually not a predictive document. Its a Decision Support tool. It really is an actuarial calculation thats designed to when an unsafe condition is identified, designed to make sure we are disciplined will you make will you make will you make every document available, every document . Its an easy question. Its an easy question, mr. Dickson. Will you make every document available for the public . Senator, im not sure what normal protocol is on that, but we will be as transparent as we possibly can. No, no. Thats not the question. Not as you can. Thats what happened the last time. You werent transparent the last time. Will you commit to making every document public . Senator, im not in a position to commit to that at this point. Well, if youre not, then youre part of a cover up. Then you im not. Youre complicit. Youre not providing the information which is going to be needed. And i just want to follow up for a second on what senator blumenthal was just asking because despite all of its wrong doing, boeing has barely been held accountable for these tragic crashes although boeings former ceo was fired he left with a 60 million golden parachute. Boeing has failed to even settle the claims of victims families in the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 lawsuits. And i find this lack of accountability absolutely outrageous. The flying public cannot trust that boeing has learned its lessons until the company and people responsible are held to task for the 346 deaths they caused. So, i am appalled but not surprised that boeing is arguing in court that the faa certification of the 737 max should shield it from liability to the victims families even though the plane was unsafe. I want to follow up, administrator dickson, do you support boeings position or should the victims families be able to hold boeing accountable for a defective plane regardless whether the company complied with broken regulations . Im not in a position to comment on that, but i would certainly be willing to follow up with you on that question. Look, theres no way that boeing should escape liability. I think you know that. And i think its going to be important for you ultimately to make a statement to the effect that boeing had a responsibility to ensure that this plane was safe. And if it did not act that way that they should be held accountable. And i think the faa and you should make a statement to that effect. I just want to make clear that the safety responsibility to produce a safe product does belong with boeing, absolutely. Okay. And i think thats important for people to hear. Boeing has responsibility for making a safe product. Im glad you clarified that. Absolutely. Because its important for the record to indicate that its not just the faa but boeing itself that has responsibility and they did not just dodge that responsibility, they should be made liable to these families. Thank you, senator. Thank you, sir. Senat senat senat senat senator udal. Thank you. Administrator dickson, the duty of our committee is to closely examine the failures of both the federal Aviation Administration and boeing to prevent the tragedies that occurred last year. We must reexamine the Current System that allowed for a muchtoocozy relationship between regulators and Companies Including boeing. I want to make this point crystal clear. Boeings effort to push for more selfcertification and to push the faa to move faster and faster to approve the 737 max were totally counterproductive and resulted in tragedy. This continues to be a case study of the complete and total failure of selfregulation. And i think this will go down as one of the big mistakes in history in this area. Mr. Dickson, last month in the faas response to the special committees report, you said the administration would increase staff at the office at the middle of this investigation. The Organization Designation authority, the 2018 faa bill required that faa do so. Why has it taken over a year and hundreds of lives lost before you committed to expanding this office as required by law . Senator, i appreciate your question. We stood up the oda office towards the end well, actually well in advance of the budget request. But we didnt have the resources at that point for permanently staffing it. Thats what that 2021 request will allow us to do. I support legislation before this committee that would reform the oda process. I believe that it is essential to prevent future accidents as t the faa recommend any reforms to oda . Yes, sir. Ive mentioned several times this morning we certainly the implementation of Safety Management systems, the use of safety risk management, integrated system safety assessments is very important as well as the consideration of the operating environment around the globe. These are some of the recommendations that we have responded to, and i think they are railrovery consistent with the committee is headed. Have you implemented those changes already . Well, respect to the we are working on them. We are in the process of we have plans to recruit system safety engineers and Software Engineers as well as well as additional Human Factors experts. We are also on our 777x certification plan. We are using a technical Advisory Board as we did with the max. And as you know with the 737 max, we have retained every aspect of that project as well including the issuance of the individual aircraft certificates. And well continue to do that until we see that through. An important component in the certification process is that the faa must be made aware of changes a Company Makes to its equivalent. But reports say that the faa was not aware of the significance of the changes boeing made to the equipment of the 737 max. What specific steps or policy changes has boeing made to regain trust of the faa and the american people, and how can you assure us that boeing will truly comply with all regulatory requirements in the future . Well, senator, its a great question. Again, boeing has voluntarily implemented some aspects of Safety Management system. They have made some changes to their internal processes. We are seeing a Culture Shift in some areas, but there is more work to be done. And we are going to stay right on that process to make sure that we see this through as we continue to reform our processes within the agency around voluntary safety reporting and Safety Management systems as well. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator. Senator rosen. Thank you, chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell, administrator dickson, and mr. Steube, i am incredibly sorry for your loss and for the loss of all the souls on the planes that crashed in this fashion. So, today i want to talk a little bit about boeing more boeingspecific questions building on some of the topic that have already been asked. I would like to revisit a topic that i raised with boeing ceo when he game before this panel. According to news reports when the Brazilian National Civil Aviation agency came to the u. S. In 2017 to test out the max 8, it determined the changes made to the old 737 were significant enough that they needed much more information from boeing and were going to provide it to their pilots. When brazils Aviation Authority eventually published Pilot Training requirements, it was able to flag the m cat as one of the changes that the pilots needed to take into consideration when flying the max 8. Yet, for u. S. Pilots, ma cast ws not mentioned in their manual. So, administrator dickson, why was that the case and why didnt the faa not seek Additional Information from boeing on the m cast system . Senator rosen, thank you for the question. Im on record and i strongly believe that it should have been in the material, in the operations material that was provided to the pilots. Anything that affects the Flight Control system of the airplane, the pilots should have. So, i think that i have concerns about how that was initially done. Well, a appreciate that. So, can you assure us that moving forward the faa will make it apractice when other countries make significant changes to their pilot manuals based on major operational changes, that the faa will consider or absolutely do this, doing so as well, and notifying u. S. Airlines and pilots to prevent any tragedies . Thats a great question. We do that now through the Certification Management team, what the other states have designed. And depending on the operating environment in different parts of the world or how pilots are trained, there may be differences of opinion of exactly what those details are. Wouldnt you agree with me that it might be better to overinform than not inform at all, so that may on the off chance that somebody might not know, isnt it always better to give a little bit more information . I would thats how i was going to finish the sentence. So, i think that if theres any doubt that having that Information Available is always going to be a better place to be. And then id just like to follow up with the little time i have left more broadly. Can you please speak to what steps youre taking to ensure that manufacturers disclose those safety Critical Systems that are not activated by the flight crew . How do you plan to be sure that this information is disclosed in pilot manuals because they need to know whats under their control and what maybe isnt, how they do the overrides . So really two things. The integration of the pilots earlier in the design process is going to be very important. In fact, we are undertaking training our technical pilots and our inspectors within the faa who arent certification experts but who are in that Aircraft Evaluation Group, train them on things like system safety assessments and certification processes so theyre actually embedded earlier on in the certification process. And that will put us in a much better position to have visibility into those issues during the as a certification of a particular project goes forward. Thank you. Thank you, very much, senator rosen. Senator duckworth. Are we able to be joined remotely by senator duckworth . Can you hear me now . Yes, thank you. Glad to hear your voice. Thank you, mr. Chairman. A poll apologize. I apologize i cant be on video right now. I have several questions for you, so in the interest of time, please limit your answers to yes and no. Given that the faa is responsible for aviation safety in the United States, your agency can take measures including legal enforcement action for violations of federal aviation regulations. Is this correct . Thats correct. It is faa with im sorry. It is faa policy to investigate complaints of lowflying aircraft that endanger persons or prop tererty . Yes, any kind of reckless operation of the aircraft is responsibility of the pilot in command and thats something wealth want to investigate and look into. Thank you. With some flexibility for helicopters and my manual is from 2018, so maybe some things have changed, but i doubt it. Faa regulations require a minimum altitude of a thousand feet above the highest obstacle for congested areas including any open air assembly. Is this correct . I believe thats correct. I would have to go back and verify that for myself. You have bigger and better aircraft. You need to check me out in a helicopter sometime. Well, you know the last time i did there was a big hole in the door. I might not be the right person. Mr. Dickson, i hope to pull up the slide. This aircraft was roughly 100 feet above Peaceful Protesters in downtown washington, d. C. On june 1st. Are you as outraged as i am about this extremely dangerous maneuver . We are looking into this senator. Im aware of the circumstances, and were looking at this from compliance with air traffic regulations in addition to the operation of the aircraft. And its an ongoing investigation. I believe what youre referring to took place within the prohibited area which is not under active control. But the pilot in command still is responsible for following the safety regulations. Were going to get im going to have a question along those lines in just a minute. But before that, the International Red cross emblem as you can see on that la ckota aircraft is painted on. Its a symbol of medical aid and its use is prohibited under conventions. If i could pull up slide two, what about this blackhawk helicopter flown above protesters on the same like. This helicopter endangered civilians on the ground and potentially violate faa safety regulations . We have not again, its under investigation. We are looking into it carefully, and i will be happy to follow up with you once we have completed our review. Thank you. These helicopters were reportedly flown by the d. C. National which is the only in the nation that goes directly to the president of the United States. The downward motion of the blades snapped a nearby small tree. Mr. Dickson, youre talking about looking into it. Are you saying that the d. C. Flight status District Office has opened an investigation into these events . Yes, we have opened an investigation. When do you expect the investigations final report to be available . I do not know this morning, but i will follow up with you as it proceeds. Wonderful. So, youll commit to providing my office with the copy of the report as soon as possible . We will provide you with the results of the investigation, yes. Thank you. Now, if we can pull up slide three, please. Mr. Dickson, from an aviation safety perspective, do you agree with this tweet from President Trump whos condoning dangerous maneuvers to intimidate american protesters on american soil . He tweeted this problem is not the talented low flying helicopter pilots wanting to save our city. The problem is the arsonists, looters, criminals and anarchists wanting to destroy our country. Do you agree with this tweet . Im not familiar its the first time ive seen it. Im not familiar with it. Do you agree with it . I dont know how it applies to im not sure how it applies to this particular situation. But as i said, senator, we will look into the facts of this particular event. Senator duckworth, weve had a technical issue. I believe youve referred to three slides. Lets enter those into the record at this point without objection. Is there any objection . Then it will be done. Thank you, senator duckworth. Senator baldwin. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I mr. Dickson, this past december, amy gannion and her 13yearold daughter jocelyn were killed in a Helicopter Crash while on a Family Vacation in hawaii. Amy was a local Business Leader and an advocate for entrepreneurs in wisconsin. She was an energetic and posture presents for the madison area in wisconsin, in fact the whole state. I understand that there is an ongoing ntsb investigation into that Helicopter Crash. I would note that for you in this committee, serious whistleblower allegations of misconduct at the faa and that the whistleblower has said that he was prevented from inspecting the safari aviation aircraft prior to its crash in december. Mr. Dickson, can i have your commitment to working with me to help ensure that what happened to the gannon families not repeated for any other family . Yes, senator as ive said many times, you know, we got to make sure that we are doing Everything Possible to promote aviation safety. Helicopter air tours and other operations of this type are not where they need to be from a safety perspective and its a big focus for the agency. We are engaged in training our inspectors to make sure that they have the appropriate background and familiarity with this type of operation. The we would welcome working with you on the subject. Thank you. Mr. Dickson, in december, senator duckworth and i sent senator chao when you a letter following up on a bipartisan amendment with chairman wicker that we included in the faa authorization act. That amendment require the department of transportation to review existing regulations and standards and sharing assistance from passengers with disabilities in air transportation specifically our letter noted a concern that current regulations do not require hands on training for employees or contractors one moving passengers including those with a spinal cord injuries. Passengers have been dropped during the transfer process and this is unacceptable. I have not yet received a response to our letter, which requested an update on your review of existing regulations and standards. Can you share that update with me now . Senator, this is a matter thats not within specifically within the faa purview, its within the aviation policy area of the department but i will take it right after this hearing. I will take it and we will get an update for you from the department. Wow mister chairman, i cant currently see the time clock. A minute and a half. Oh, excellent so administrator dickson, at your confirmation hearing before this Committee Just over a year ago, i noted the ongoing investigations at the faa here in congress and within the dot Inspector General and the department of justice. I asked you then if confirmed, what would you require of boeing before and grounding the 737 max. In the year that youve been administrator of the faa, some of these investigations have in fact concluded and produce reports for recommendations and other investigations including the department of Transportation Office of investigator general audit have not yet concluded. We continue to see reports in the media of boeings planned, most recently that boeing is aiming at conducting a key certification test later this month, so i want to ask you the very same question that i asked you a little over a year ago. As head of faa, what will you require of boeing before giving the green light to an grounding that 737 max . Its a great question. We will require every step of the process to be completed. Were not on any timeline. Ive said many times to my team that we are going to retain every aspect and we will work the process through to completion. However long that takes, we will have undue delays, we will be ready to go but one of the things that we have been working with boeing on and have seen some improvements have been to give us complete data submissions in the certification work as weve gone forward and we will continue to do that. I also, as we work forward, there are some civil penalty actions that weve taken. I believe its the second largest civil penalty in the history of the faa against boeing and we will continue to look at their performance and reserve the right to hold them accountable moving forward as well in that way, if thats necessary. Thank you mister chairman. Thank you very much. Senator cruz . Thank you mister chairman. Mr. Dickson, a little over a year ago you sat before this committee in a confirmation hearing. At the time i and others told you to be off at what had happened. Youve been in office 329 days, weve heard today that you are stonewalling the chairmans investigations, that you refusing to answer multiple letters from a least one of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, senator blumenthal and that youve yet to provide responsive documents to mr. Stumos for your request fired filed eight months ago. Im going to ask you some simple questions. In the process of certification of the 737 max, did boeing lie to the faa . I cant say, i mean, definitely there was incomplete information and fragmented information that was provided. No doubt. Why did one of their senior test pilots right in the text quo, so i basically lied to the regulators unknowingly . I dont know, i cant speak for him, i dont know what he meant by that, senator. So in 329 days what have you been doing if not figuring out whether they lied and what they lied about . Im interested in learning from the past and making the process and the agency more effective and better going forward. The important point is that the information was not provided in the way that it needed to be provided. That in itself degrades the trust that we need to have thats a foundation to the certification process. Whether an individual lied, i cant did the faa screw up in certifying the 737 max. I had concerns, i would say there are mistakes being made, yes. So in washington, the passive voice is a classic tell. Mistakes were made is a great way of avoiding responsibility because there is no actor in that phrase, mistakes were made. Who made the mistakes and why . Dont speak in the passive voice. The manufacturer made mistakes and the faa made mistakes in its oversight of the manufacturer. What were the mistakes and why were they made . The full implications of the Flight Control system were not understood as design changes were made. Has anyone had faa been fired . There have been changes in leadership and various areas. No one has been fired over this particular matter up until this point. Has anyone been disciplined over this matter . No, not specifically. So unknown somebodys made unspecified mistakes for which there had been no repercussions, is that right . I would not say there have not been repercussions. Well, please tell us the repercussions. The repercussions are that we have significant reforms we are making to the process and we are standing up audit processes and review processes and more robust Safety Systems so that we can be more effective in the future. As an organization. Is there a systemic problem of agency capture at the fa . You know i remember us having this conversation, senator and i dont believe that it is agency capture but i do believe that when you have very capable, technical subject Matter Experts that they get focused on their checklist or their part of the process, they hold themselves accountable for that and they dont always see the whole picture, so thats why we need, as leaders, to make sure that we are taking an integrated approach and our dealings in this case with the manufacturer, air care, whatever the private sector regulated party is, that we are responsible for overseeing. Mr. Dickson, in your Opening Statement you said, safety is a journey, not a destination. For the 346 souls lost on the two 737 maxes that crashed safety was all about arriving at their destination. They should have arrived at their destination once. Had looked boeing not covered up serious safety concerns, number one. The and had the faa done its job of making sure that the put in the field without war pilots being appropriately trained. I think the concern this committee has is were not seeing from you any of the urgency of fixing this problem. Its very easy to go into an agency and yourself get captured by the agency. You understand sir, you do not work for the airlines and you do not work for boeing, you work for the american people. This committee expects transparency. This committee expects that when we ask questions specifically about malfeasance that cost the lives of 320 246 people, that you will be forthcoming in answering those questions. Im hopeful thats the conduct we will see going forward. Thank you. Thank you senator cruz. Now i thank the chairman for holding todays hearing as part of this coming these oversight in the wake of the two tragic crashes in asia and ethiopia. My deepest sympathies remain with the families and we want to thank them for being here today. I want to associate myself with the comments that have already been made by the chairman and other members of the committee emphasizing the importance of being responsive to request for documents and other information as we conduct oversight. I hope you are hearing loudly and clearly, mr. Dickson how critical that is to the work that we do and to the work that you do in order to keep the flying public safe. One of the major lessons that we learned from these tragic accidents is that a thorough consideration of Human Factors should become a more fundamental component of design and testing of new aircraft, especially as avionics becomes more complex. What do you see opportunities for the a fee a is improved as Human Factors in the aircraft certification process . Thats a great question senator. First of all, its bolstering our Human Factors an expertise, so there is a workforce component in addition to working with academia and nasa on these issues. Frankly, also, involving our pilots and our Flight Standards group, our Aircraft Evaluation Group, into the certification process added earlier and more integrated point in the process which allows us to taking more holistic view of the role of the human in aircraft design and not look at them as independently as they have been in the past. Its more than a matter of just training a pilot to operate a particular machine, we want to make sure that the pilot is viewed as a part of the design. Good. Well that was one of the things i think we learned as they were gaps in training as well and it seems a big serious issue to be addressed. You mentioned your testimony, the faa will need to ensure personnel received the training they need to adequately adapt to an industry thats constantly adopting new technology and implementing complex systems in line with that discussion, what initiative is faa pursuing to make sure the current personnel has the training as well as recruit and hire new personnel . Again, great question. Our Aviation Safety Organization has a tenyear workforce plan and we are in the process of continually reviewing our needs in our response to the secretary special Committee Report, we will have a focus again on i talked about Human Factors and experts but also system engineers, Software Engineers and data scientists so that we can again have a stay ahead of new technologies as they are introduced. Your testimony also discussed, and you mentioned it just previously here, the faas plan to adopt a more holistic approach when it comes to certification consistent with recommendations from the special committee to review the faas aircraft process. This includes better coordination between various f if faa offices for aircraft manufacturers. How does the faa plan to improve coordination between offices such as the Aircraft Certification Service and Flight Standards responsible for different aspects of the certification process . Its a great question and weve recently initiated program to train our aviation safety inspectors who are involved in the Aircraft Evaluation Group on many of the processes that our aircraft certification engineers actually use, so that they are able to participate more fully in all phases of that process. In addition to that, we are standing up a project management, or Program Management function that will take these programs where you have over a period of years and sometimes you have personnel changes and people who may not be there throughout the whole five to seven years of the project to make sure the entire project hangs together from beginning to end. So those two functions should improve the coordination, thats the goal between those two parts of the agency. Can you speak, quickly here, to how requiring adoption of a Safety Management system for manufacturers would benefit faas oversight of the certification process . Yes senators, smes has many benefits, i think its actually the most important step that we can take to improve aircraft certification on the companies side, the manufacture parts safety responsibility were belongs and it promotes transparency and voluntary employee reporting on safety issues. It really focuses accountability for product safety to the highest level of the company. On the agency side, it allows us to oversee the system and the process and it reinforces the sharing of data in a dynamic process between the manufacturer and the agency, so it greatly improved the regulators ability to identify hazards and manager oversight before a compliance bust actually occurs. We dont have to wait for that because we are getting a date of feet all throughout the process. Thank you and my time is expired. Next up and i think she is with us remotely is senator cinema and upon senator cinemas question pending senators appearance, we will move to the second panel. Senator cinema. Thank you mister chairman. Administrator dickson, Many Airlines wear masks on airplanes. However, reports have shown that has been uneven and difficult. The cdc is vital to Public Health particularly were social distancing is not possible like airline cabin. The faa needs to do more to make sure its mitigating the spread of the virus. Right now the faa only had recommendations but no requirements for masks. Why isnt the faa mandating masks on flying and what more can you do instead of pilots Wearing Masks . Well thank you senator and we have been working through out as the Aviation Safety Authority to provide our aviation expertise to the Public Health authorities and as secretary chao has said, we believe what our spaces in aviation safety and their say 50 is in Public Health. We have made those standards available to the airlines and to labor stakeholders and others and i have told them, very specifically, that i expect for them to abide by and those standards including the wear of face coverings on commercial aircraft and we will continue to do that. We are seeing, in recent days, the adoption of more stringent enforcement as a part of the airlines and we will continue to monitor that situation using the airlines Safety Systems to make sure that they are following through. So does the faa plan to mandate that masks are on flights . Sounds like youre recommending it but theres no enforcement. We do not plan to provide an enforcement specifically on that issue. However, we are reviewing their voluntary safety programs to make sure that they are following through. On a related topic, as you know, im looking on legislation with senator cruz to create a Contact Tracing method for International Travel into our country during covid19. Given your position on the task force addressing covid related issues, can you discuss the importance of Contact Tracing for travelers during pandemic and details on any ongoing efforts that you are taken to a justice issue . Its a great question, senator. We have been involved in the contract Contact Tracing work since the very early days. Really dating back to january, frankly. And again, we are using our aviation expertise to act as a facilitator between the airlines in this case and the Public Health authorities who can manage that data. The question is, that is a need that we all have and all agree with that. The department is engaged in this as well and we have we certainly have an open mind but we are trying to make sure that that information gets ingested into the systems where the cdc can conduct the Contact Tracing that needs to be done. Thank you. Airports in arizona including phoenix, tucson, have asked for more tools to speed up the construction of airport infrastructure. Earlier this week, i introduced legislation with senator young, had to incentivize for more airport construction projects. For to incentivize airport projects. Have you had a chance to review our legislation and you have any thoughts on helping airports expedite these products . Thank you senator. I am familiar with the proposal. I have not actually seen the legislative text but from what i understand, it is consistent with the need to stream line and facilitate Infrastructure Projects so as i understand it, its something we would support and the department would support. Thank you. Thank you mister chairman. I yield back my time. Thank you very, very much and i would now pursue to the statement made by mr. Thune. We will move to the next panel. Mister administrator, thank you very much for your presentation today and we certainly look forward to following up with you on all other matters. Let me go ahead and before we excuse you we will have questions for the record as im sure you are familiar. Upon receipt, we ask you to submit your written answers to the committee as soon as possible and im sure you will do that. At this point, thank you sir. Thank you. And if staff will assist mr. Stumo in law coming to the microphone we will begin our second panel and a vote is occurring and again, we are going to pass the gavel around and try to accommodate senators and the schedule. And so if we are ready, our next panel is mr. Michael stumo. As we said earlier, father of samuel stumo who tragically died on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. Mr. Stumo, thank you for your presence today. You have a written statement which will pieces myth in its entirety and we ask you to summarize your testimony. You are now recognized. Thank you chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell and Ranking Members of this committee. Chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell, i appreciate your recent legislative proposal which is an improvement. I have some ideas from me in the families and how it can be further improved. The et 302 family members are also dedicated to you mr. Cantwell, to learn about our families, facts, solution so theres not a third crash. But zambias 26th birthday will be in less than two weeks. I speak for my family, i dont speak for the other et 302 families. Lion air plane crashed into the sea killing all 189 passengers. That boeing 737 max was only three months old. After an angle of the test sensor failed, the pilot fought with what we know was 13 minutes before the crash. Faa didnt ground the plane, boeing put out a statement saying the max 8 is safe as any airplane that has flown the skies. It was not. March 10th, my daughter was traveling on a First International trip for her employer, think well. She flew from dallas to ethiopia for a layover. After she arrived she texted us, just landed, another two hours to nairobi a. She never made it. Semi a border the boeing at local time. That aircraft was only four months old. Again, the angle of the tech sensor fell and it repeatedly engaged in pushing the nose down to the ground. Samya experienced six minutes of rollercoaster terror, so did the others on the plane. The plane plowed into an ethiopian farm field. When my family and i visited the crash site, we saw that the plane and the passengers that broken into small pieces and were mixed together with jet fuel. The first crash should not have happened, the second crash is inexcusable. Between the crashes on december 18th, december 23rd 2018 we now know that faa had done an internal Risk Assessment projecting 15 more crashes in the max in its lifetime. In a slideshow data december 18th of 2018, boeing was reassuring that faa that pilots can handle failures. They could respond immediately, react immediately, fix it immediately. Faa, we now know, seemingly had boeing four software fix in ten months to keep the plane going. The crash happened before ten months was up, they gambled, we lost four. So the max was a plane developed in the obama era, but certified on march 2017, it was a deadly aircraft with ill fitting engines voted to 50 or old fuselage. Rather than fixing the aerodynamic design, but we took the cheap wear out using glitzy software that relies in put on a single sensor to push the nose of the plane down to the ground in certain situations. This was a pattern at boeing. In 2013, they minimize the and cast to faa saying its an extension of the existing speed trim system. Everything im saying has already been found in reports. Its those reports linked in my testimony. In 2016, they drastically straits in the and cast and fill theres a critical system, safety Critical Systems. We now know that the chief boeing test pilot bragged about jedi mind tricking the faa in accepting the Pilot Training. In 2017, another boeing employee said the airplane is designed by clowns who in turn were supervised by monkeys. In 2018, yet another employee wrote, i still havent forgiven my god for what i covered up last year. Boeing engineers have told us, the families, that the faa industry has allowed undoing influence on safety engineers. The prior system resisted onto influence because faa appointed, they removed and supervised boeing engineers involving certification duties. Now faa allows boeing to self certified, boeing engineers are cut off from faa technical specialist by reporting only to boeing managers. The profit and timeline pressures can overwhelm the Safety Culture. The prior system resisted influenced. The current o. J. Practice invites undue influence. Last october, a committee of International Aviation was released a report critical of faa the max, the report also found the undue influence, found many problems with the faa, reducing direct involvement with critical Safety Systems. Thats what the International Report found, they were too much for reducing with critical Safety Systems. They determine the faa overseeing boeing were too few, too unqualified to do so. Faas never responded to that report. The European Agency and transport canada have told fa last year they will embed independently validate its findings rather they deferring to faa. The faas source and certification and merely push paper and watch powerpoint presentations. The agency seems comfortable to be as one buoying employee said, dogs watching tv. I expect better and so do the ete 302 families in the flying public. My time is up, im having to spell out the legislative changes in any question answer sessions. Thank you for allowing me. There just arent any words. That we can say. In my Opening Statement i mentioned several frustrations i had with information requests. Your written testimony discusses this also, so can you describe the current status of your requests . Our request for further improvement, we appreciate the movement thats been made so far in the legislation. Our requests are to further rebalance delegation on a substantive level. We appreciate that the faa under your bill will appoint, remove, direct communication with the boeing engineers responsible for certification, but again with the whole thing with the data report found that the agency wants to reduce direct involvement certifications instead Congress Must require that faa do its job with safety Critical Systems that they retain and not delegated authority over safety critical system. That means not only those determined hazardous and catastrophic if they failed, but also major because we see that boeing try to fit the mcast in the major category which isnt quite as bad as a hazardous or catastrophic so that it can minimize many things and push profits. Safety Critical Systems is something the faa should maintain, we should have an fa right team to look over the blue team, so to speak, of the manufacturing engineers are doing. Number two, as a lifetime that the max was certified, the year is born, 1967, im 53 and that families 53. They are trying to cram new engines in an old fuselage putting new software on Old Computers that dont talk to each other and at some point, youve got to innovate, make a new plane and thats before 50 years. Maybe 25 years, but at some point you make a new plane and if you dont, you make a 24 century aircraft and from boeings perspective, so the brilliance brazilians and the chinese dont catch up to them. Next, faa certification, as weve seen, is flawed. Its not very good in many cases and it should not equal immunity. Boeing apologizes and said they are very sorry, we are going to do better, but in courts they put claims that say, we dont have to pay anything because faa is certified in that makes us immune, and thats wrong, and the faa and other cases has supported that position. I dont like it. That should change. Legislation should make that clear. Lastly, faa and ntsb secrecy must end any excuse they can have to not, you know, you hear the words. We know words and actions are different. Any excuse to not respond whether its, you know, were too busy or when they do, thats confidential and proprietary information and youve seen it. When they send documents in, they get out the rubberstamp and everything says confidential and privilege, even if its the dinner menu. Then they all say export control, and then four ntsb, which is blocking disclosure of documents that have been between the crashes, they say an ex 13 covers the dinner menu. At some point, they are just going to use those privileged and confidential excuses as broadly and theres no penalty for abusing it so congress has to step in, design, and rebound to public interest. So those are what i would suggest. Thank you for your testimony. Im sure you had no intention of becoming an expert in this subject matter, but we appreciate your insights. Senator cantwell . Thank you mister chairman and mr. Stumo, thank you for being here in your wife as well. Im lending my condolences to you and all the families who have been impacted by this and again, my thanks for your continued oversight and communications on these issues because, as i said, ive seen what the kogan air families that they have made an impact on what weve been able to do on safety and so im sure that you all have the same impact. But nonetheless, a very painful experience and continue to focus on these issues, but i thank you. I wanted to go over a couple of things about your testimony to ask further details on. I agree, we need the faa to remain in the driver seat when it comes to the certification process and that is what that legislation does, as you say, making sure that they have oversight over the employees and the process on a supervisory role and owning the system. Thats what chairman wicker and i have also agreed to in the legislation. I was im not little, i was very surprised to hear that faa administrator not fully support that concept today. Do you have any comments on that . Weve seen a consistent set of reports from faa including a 20, i think it was a 2017 air transformation report. Its full of i refer to it in my report in my wrist and testimony that its full of management consulting, a about goals and aspirations, but what it boils down to is a dedicated internal peers from the outside, a dedicated internal process that they are going to withdraw from, you know, the direct involvement certification. Apparently that includes appointing removing and communicating with the bowling engineers during a public service, which is certification duties. It seems to be the plea embedded. I was surprised to see how resistant demonstrator was to the mere fact that, hey, when we just take it a look at these folks. They approve, they can remove if they screw up. We all know people cant screw up. You make an appointment and you wish you hadnt. You have supervision that is going on in between because that is what we have heard from boeing engineers that have been around in the er system and the a. D. A. System. When you have boeing opponents on the boeing side, the Safety Culture can get totally overwhelmed by the profit time light measures. It has always existed, but youve got no one else. Youve got to respond to the boeing manager. The boss the boeing gave Aviation Safety Oversight Office has 27 engineers that are supposedly overseeing 1500 boeing engineers and all they could see is a look at paper and put rubber stamps to them. Because there is something, delegations have been around a long time but we have to rebalance it in the way that your bill has stated it. I was indeed surprise. Thank you for that. I also law i agree with you. Thank you for bringing up those numbers as it relates to the Oversight Office itself. Clearly, our bill creates a new office and oversight and saying exactly the right level of expertise and Technology Oversight that is required, and so hopefully that will be fixed. It is very frustrating to hear the administrator today, not embracing these things as fully, because it is very hard for us. We can pass a law, but what are we going to say on top of the faa. I will guarantee you that. We will get the right force work there. You mention the team thing. Which i think comes up in a couple of different ways. This idea of holistic approach. Im interested do you think the ntsb and nasa can play a bigger role in the upfront part big of the certification process when a Type Certificate is being considered and these ideas, or new technologies are being considered . Do you think outside groups like that of experts at the front end of the process can better identify risks . I think it is very possible. I will draw a little bit on what heavier dilutes who lost sister on the 80th to crash. He is an mit aerospace engineer. He has also said you need to have getting a new aircraft designed, developed and certified is a Major National event. It takes something that and he is all hands on deck. He supports having a multi Agency Involvement from the beginning. In this case, we have a khoury have boeing in our case. It is a Public Private partnership, but along the lines, i understand that javier had also supported that given his deep knowledge i tend to deferring agree. My time is expired, mister chairman. Thank you. Tell us again, sir, the name of the author of that paper. Javier de luis. All do you have his paper with you today . He did submit. I can provided to the committee and i think it was submitted to staff. We already have it. So without objection, i will will place in the record. There are no other members. Senator markey, we are told i am here, mister chip chairman. You are recognized, sir. Thank you mister chairman. Mr. Markey, you have a copy of the document that he refer to that was not predictive but mentioned a 15 aircraft accidents that might have occurred . I think my staff has access to it and we will get it to you, mister chairman. Let us put that in the record. If i can help on that, when i submitted my written testimony, it was in it was included in that as well. Thank you, and mr. Markey, you are recognized. Thank you, mister chairman. I want to thank mr. Stumo and your spouse nadia for being here today, and for your tireless work to put a spotlight on this inexcusable tragedy. And the need to reform our broken aviation certification system. I offer my condolences to you for the loss of your brilliant, accomplished daughter. It was an unfortunate tragedy that has taken from you. But i admire so much what you and your wife has done to make sure we focus on this issue, to guarantee that there is accountability, that the d faa and boeing be made never again should we see or have to suffer what you suffered. Im happy that administrative dickson just affirmed boeings legal responsibility for the defective 7 37 max. We need to guarantee that boeing cannot block your families legal claims in court. Mr. Stumo, can you speak further to boeings accountability and how can Congress Help you and holding the Company Responsible . I want to say, it is not just its 156 others that died in that crash. A lot of families have been active in their home countries in canada, europe, the french, the german, norwegian, suites, africa, rwanda, many families have their own individual hurts that they are trying to recover from. I am uncomfortable just having the focus on me, but we are in the u. S. , and under covid we are in washington, but there are others that are doing a lot. You see, from our perspective we see a dichotomy between public actions, words and private behavior, where you have boeing repeatedly tell the camera that they are very sorry. And cale whom, the new ceo who was around during this whole era of certification made a decision against on the board of directors, when they made the decision against developing a new plane and extracting more value from the agent 7 37 family. But they apologized in public saying we are sorry, we will look into it. We will make changes. We are working diligently to compensate and make everything right and then you look in the documents, and they say, now we dont have to pay anything because the faa certified it and it means the family does not have their own claims. It is not right. They know it, that is why they did not state in public. They only said it in private. What from your perspective, again, should everyone who is watching this hearing, know about the families and the accountability you want from boeing on this issue . Boeing has a responsibility to produce safe planes. They are a Great Company with the great history that has lost its way with chasing profit and value engineering and getting rid of engineers and talent over the time, to extract profit and delivering it to shareholders, stock buybacks and executives. We need to have, as a National Champion company for the u. S. , they have got duties to america, to passengers, to us, and they could have made a great 21st century plane. They did not. The faa has to do its job and not be a paper pushing agency, not be dogs watching tv. I am concerned the ms smes Safety Management, sounding like a good idea is not directly on point that will fix the fact that the faa is not directly involved in the certification. That there is more paper to push. When you have a company that is dedicated to misleading and hiding things, that they will mislead it and hide it in the paperwork when you are not on site. That is what i think. Doug so, when you talk to boeing officials, if you have talked to them or your lawyers have talked to them, how would you characterize their response action . We do not talk, we are all represented. I saw a lot of times boeing apologizing to cameras about what happened, but only once when shamed in doing it when big they turn to the families and said they were sorry. Calhoun has not talk to us. Theyve only apologized to cameras. What does that tell you, that they are unwilling to actually apologize to the families . Its a concern that it is just a pr management issue. Meaning its not real. Its not real. They speak to cameras but not families. They need Public Statement that kind of satisfies the minimum requirement that they say they are sorry but they do not want to actually have to meet with the families themselves in order to have that kind of accountability. Put ethiopian an alliance sent a family a letter of sorrow, and apology early on, now Ethiopian Airlines have done another a lot of other things wrong. Look when i apologize to my wife, i do not do it to a camera or someone else. I do it to her. Thats how you should do it to society. Absolutely. They have been irresponsible, and they are clearly engaged in a systematic coverup. Our job will be to help you to make sure that every single piece of information is made available publicly. So that we guarantee that this spotlight is so bright that we will not ever have to see a hearing like this have to be conducted, but not until we have collected poll of that information, not until boeing is made accountable in court. Big khoury thats when we will know that we have done our job for you and for all of the families. We thank you for being here today in order to make sure that the voices of the families are heard. Thank you so much for your willingness to do. This thank you. Thank, you senator cantwell, for being here today and on so many other occasions, lending your voice and face to this reform effort. Not just in memory of your daughter, but to save other lives and to you and all of the families that have lost loved ones, this committee has an obligation not only to impress express condolences, but to put our action where our mouths are, and to adopt reforms that will prevent these kinds of tragedies in the future. You were here to here administrator dickson, and i will just go to your testimony on the rebalance of delegation. You may have heard my question about the f a taking back the delegation at the very least, involvement in critical Safety Systems. Were you satisfied with the answer that he gave . No. No. Theyre always seems to be an unwillingness to do so. It seems wrong. We have got to have the red Team Involved with systems that are deemed major, hazardous are catastrophic if they go bad. We cannot just rely on the internal checks and balances of a manufactured depending upon the vagarys of what ceo is in charge or boeing manager is in charge or who is on duty at the time. On the issue of lifetime limits for Type Certificates, i think you may have said to me at one point during our private conversations, that right now, in fact they can bold a new system on to an old fuselage and just slide it through for certification. Were you satisfied with the answer that he gave me when i asked about limits on the lifetime of certificates . No. There needs to be a lifetime limit. They need to figure it out. There is a lot involved. They did not have a flight crew alert system like those that were required in a crash in an aircraft since 1982. A flight crew alert system that has red, yellow and green lights all in one place, that you can prioritize things that may or may not be going wrong. In this case, the max was one of the many in this whole fuselage, they had this whole kick caffeine of stick shakers and pull up and going too fast and going to slow. In the testimony described before the house where he had a hard time pulling out of this thing. They tried to describe this the reason they have those rules from 1982 which was when this max was 25 years old, not 28 years later they do not have it. Because the grandfather ran old tech. When you safety regulations come into effect, it is a method of skirting it apparently. Single string rudder controls. Various parts of the plane that got grandfathered in. 20 years ago you need to had a flight cooler system. Look who i think on the other issues that i asked and are in your testimony on faa certification in effect, equaling immunity for boeing, the culture of secrecy that we see. I think you would agree that his answers were totally unsatisfactory. The answer has always been on secrecy and being transparent. We heard it from this family since the beginning. We have not gotten one document. Neither have we. No meaningful documents. At least not in response to my question. I can pledge to you, and i think others in the committee will join me in this view that the bill is now pending, can be greatly strengthened and improved. Ive offered one to the Ranking Member and chairman who have offered another. I think theres is very commendable and the progress that it reflects. Im going to be offering amendments to mine and theres in the markup. Hopefully there will be one that would in effect require a take back in delegation on those critical Safety Systems, require more transparency, require to preemption, so that families have their in court in spite of faa certification law. Require that other, Even Stronger reforms be adopted. I think your testimony and your work on highlighting how the faa has become a captive of the industry, how it has become, in effect as you say, a dog watching tv. How it has enabled the industry to put profits ahead of safety. All those points that you have made and all the work that you have done, i hope will have an impact on this committee, and i think what is needed is really radical, forward reform. The public demands it. The industry has reached a crossroads. A real turning point. It has choices to make, but i think congress can no longer leave those choices exclusively to the industry. I think that voluntary compliance delegated certification are going to be a thing of the past. I want to thank you for your being a whistleblower and a watchdog, which is what we need. We need in effect, in the system, and institutional watchdog, not just a watchdog. Thank you very much to you and your family for all the work that you have done. Thank you. Thank you senator blumenthal. I want to follow up on a couple of things just quickly. I have to run and vote in a minute. If you see me dash out its because i have to get there. We also introduced a bill with senator moran, today about standards we would like to see on an international basis. It mentioned captain sullenberger a couple times. I wonder if youve given any thought to this larger issue of, how do we, the pilot, definitely need the faa improved, but we also want pilot standards to be there and have you given any thoughts about that. The u. S. Aviation system is inherently global. The boeing planes are sold everywhere. Families are writing everywhere. It used to be that faas rules were a Gold Standard. But certainly, how do you have, to the extent we improve here, how do you rightly have an extra territorial reach to what we do . Certainly, the human factor approach, and on the human factor, it is all about not excessive reliance on the human which is fallible to be the last chance before a set of smoking home. Because you need a machine to be hardened and have redundancy in hardening. I will make five mistakes before i go to bed tonight. Pilots make mistakes to. They have bad days. Youve got to rely on machines as well. I am in favor to do the best we can to have an International Reach for the bill of the flight aviation safety of ethiopia and kenya. I think our kenyan and ethiopian families would agree. It is not that great. Generally, i would be supportive mister chairman, ive got to run. Thank you, senator cantwell, and thank you all. If there are no other questions, and we will move to close the hearing. On the hearing record, it will remain open for two weeks. During this time senators are asked to submit any questions for the record. Each witness is requested to submit written answers to the committee as soon as possible. Thanks to both of our witnesses. Particularly to you, mister stumo. We very much appreciate your insights and there is just no way to express our condolences adequately. With that, this hearing is now adjourned