Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence Image - Dolley Madison 20240712

Women where they could wield a great deal of political power. Here, Dolley Madison would sit at the head of the table and direct the conversation. She got these people to the white house and entertained them, got them together, got them talking. This is very important for dolley to make everyone feel welcome. Whether they were enemies or allies. Dolley popularized the style to american fashion, that was considered her classic look. People noticed it. The octagon, it was the perfect setting for james and Dolley Madison as they try to resume government as quickly as possible. She sat side by side with madison for almost 20 years during his entire meant, helping him compile his papers. She moved back to washington d. C. And became a grand, very much behind the scenes in the political field again. As henry clay said, everyone loves mrs. Madison, and then her equally famous response, thats because mrs. Madison loves everybody. Dolley madison came to her service as first lady with the experience in the role, during Thomas Jeffersons two terms, he called upon her to assist with entertainment. This usefulness the parlor diplomacy allowed dolley to hit the ground rolling into zoomed the role and 1809 as madison became our nations fourth president. Good evening and welcome to cspan first ladies influence an image tonight. Well learn about the intriguing Dolley Madison. For the next 90 minutes, we have two guests at our table who know a lot about her and the world of first ladies, lets introduce you. Catherine allgor is an author, a biographer of Dolley Madison and a historian. One of her books is called a, Perfect Union, Dolley Madison and the creation of the american nation. Thanks for being here its a pleasure edith mayo its one of our four historian consultant for the series, and the creator of the first ladies exhibit at the smithsonian that so many millions of visitors have seen throughout the years. Thanks for being here. Well, ill start with you, catherine. And a 24 century woman who starts to read about Dolley Madison and seasoned parallels to their own lives in the way that she seemed to approach her role in washington. Was she, in fact, ahead of her time . A modern person in the early 1800s or not . Thats the paradox. Really, you understand her as an 18th century woman, raising a certain culture, but when she becomes first lady she starts adopting the past and a way that paves the way for maternity. And she also creates the first lady role that we have come to know. So every modern first lady, everybody all the way it looks to her and we she opens the door for a lot of women. For she shows the parallels about them, what is dolly minds and . You saw martha as the person who perfected the aspect of the role, which was the social partner to the president , and the host for the nation. And then when you get to abigail, she becomes a political partner with her husband and pioneers that role. Dolley is the one who brings the two of them together. She becomes both the social partner and the political partner for her husband, and i think that sets all kind of precedent for the future first ladies. She is kind of still, i think, held up as a standard by which other people measure themselves today. We will spend the first 45 minutes or so, almost half of our program, on those important weiss has years. It was such an interesting and perpetuates time. Will go back in time and then about her biography, how this young quaker woman became this internationally known first lady. And then end up with her legacy. Thats what tonight looks like. We welcome your participation throughout the program, we will have our phone lines open and we will be taking your calls. You can also send us a tweet and use the hashtag first ladies and we have to cspan page on facebook, so lots of ways to add your questions and comments to your discussion tonight. I started getting people emails this week, wanting to know about Martha Jefferson. What happened . We skipped the third presidency, so we talked about Dolly Madisons role, but what happened to Martha Jefferson . Why was she not in the white house . She and jefferson were married for ten years, and then she died in childbirth so he was a widower when she moved into the white house and needed someone to oversee these parties win both sexes were present. It was thought to be unseemly to entertain in mixed company if you did not have a hostess present. So he would very often ask Dolly Madison. But he did not entertain very much . He entertain a very private way, he did not have large entertainments like adams or washington, or the medicines. The capital was getting used to . So their criticism for not being social . I think there was criticism, not necessarily for him being so social, but not so social, excuse me. But because he did not invite the women as often as he did them in, he preferred to have a lot of mail company and conduct actual political conversations. And he also did away with all kinds of rank and protocol, which was very criticized at that time. But he wanted everyone to be treated as equal. He thought that was what the new nation was all about. How important was the relationship between Thomas Jefferson and the medicines . Well, they were is very important, i mean. James madison and Thomas Jefferson were as very close political allies and friends. And so, its natural, of course, when jefferson gets elected to bring medicine on as the secretary of state. I want to Say Something about jefferson social program, if you will. Its not an accident. He was not interested in power sharing. She was interested in securing his own political power. So he had dinner parties with men of one party or the other. So he would sit with his group, the republicans, as they were called, and he would just, keep oak around and rally the supporters. Then, hed have the dinner party with the opposition, the federalist. And that was all about keeping an eye on the enemy. And this idea that each brought up about the lack of women, which is her role its not the big story of that time, he had been to france and seen women, and women at social events. And he was absolutely horrified and shocked, especially about their political power because it fell outside the official power. So he cut off all of these events. The white house was open only for 4th of july and new years day, that was partly because he wanted to curtail the power of women. But there was Something Else going on over on the house on entreat, and that was Dolley Madison setting up the connections and networks and she would bring to the white house. During those first years, the jefferson administration, the center of social and political life was not the white house where the president s mansion, it was the house on f street. Here are our few bullet points about the country in 1810 as James Patterson takes office. The population at that point was 7. 2 million, and now 17 states. 36 growth since the census ten years earlier. And you remember, last week, it was a ten year a 35 growth. So this country is booming, bursting at the seams. Even though the seams were smaller in those days. Of those 16 were slaves, 1. 2 million people. And the largest cities continue to be new york city, philadelphia, and baltimore, and boston. What should we know about the politics, the most important political events of the Madison Administration . What was the time like and how important was dolley and helping to navigate those times for her husband . Right. There were two big stories i want to say about this era, and the first one is a disunion. Youre getting the sense that the early republic, thats what we call this time period was a ton of great anxiety. Nobody was sure that this union was going to hold. In fact, people of the time would refer to the United States in the plural, they would say the United States of america are, with signal that its not quite holding together. So there is a real fear that its going to fall apart. And one of the sources of this disunion might be what they called regionalism, later theyre going to call it sectionalism as they had the civil war. James madison primary goal was unity, and if we keep that in mind as we go on tonight, Dolley Madisons work is going to be understandable. The second thing i would like to say is something that we know the end of the story. We know this nation is going to be a strong nation state with a democracy and a two party system and a strong president. That was none of the things that the founders had intended. So now we look back and we see what that period, as a period of growing pans, and we see that while Dolley Madison did not know how it would end, was the perfect person to help the nation ease into what it is going to be. Here she was with the father of the constitution, serving then as the chief executive of the nation. So he brought a real concept of how he wanted this role to be carried out. How did he approach it and how did she help him . Well, you said concept and i think thats perfect because he was the idea guy. And he was very theoretical. He and other members of the founding generation understood as a concept, unity, that it was their number one drop. But how do you do it . How do you bring forth unity . And what Dolley Madison did, along with other women of the time, its take these abstract concepts and translate them into action. So shes an acting unity on this national stage. How . Well, the first thing somebody alluded to in the beginning, she brought people together. She launches her drawing rooms. And there every wednesday night, every wednesday night. It is a matter Vice President has died, there will be a drawing room. And she put people in the room together. And that sounds nice but this is more about just nice. For the early republic, its a time of survival. So this feeling of disunity or disunion is exacerbated in washington because all these regionalisms come together with the most, im going to say, the most Fractious Congress that weve ever had. These are people who did not just disagree with each other, but they dueled and fought each other, not just in the streets but on the floors of congress. And so, thats why bringing people together and having them see each other as humans its not just, you know, lovely, but actually, crucial. The drawing room concept is a kind of thing that Martha Washington and algal adams had used. Yes. But its very different from what they had done. There is was extremely formal and dolleys was much more open. So, you had everybody at dolleys drawing rooms able to have access to the chief executive at this lady. And thats very important for forging a unity in the United States. And, also, dolley creates she starts out as the wife of the secretary of state. But what she is doing is forging networks, social networks, on which politics and diplomacy can be conducted in a civilized manner through the ceremonial forms of dinner, receptions, parties and so forth. So that some of these tensions and animosities that play themselves out in the hall of congress have a way of being resolved at parties in an amicable way. So she is, she really is forging new networks that would work for both politics and society. And this concept, you write about and several of your books, and the subtitle it this is, and the creation of the american nation. And you write about the fact that the women of this class, they understood as their power to be able to use social skills to build the nation. Well, the founders understood that this American Revolution that they had was more than just a Political Revolution they were going to and this is a phrase they l ve build the worldanew. And that meant everythin was under consideration. This is it going to be the new world, and they were going to scorn everything of the old world. They turn to the women, and this is acts a political theory called the scottish indictment, in case someone wants to wikipedia that, which he says that in a culture, laws can come and go. But what they call manners stay. And manners are not just teacups, but the way people treat each other and how they regard each other and how they behave. And this is very appealing to these new americans. For one thing, they are inventing a whole bunch of laws and not sure people are going to buy, and they really need people to behave. So the phrase they use is republican virtue. Thats republican with a small are. And that meant that people would put their interest of the country before, you know, themselves. How do you get people to do that . And they look to the women of this class to start enforcing what they call the national manners. So this is a very important part. And these women, these elite white women of the cities were very conscious of that. If you like to participate by phone. Here the phone lines. We divided them recently. If you live in the eastern or central time zones, our number is 2025853880. Please dial carefully stage and someone altogether. Not in the pacific . 2025853881. We will take calls in another ten minutes or so, so you can get in the queue right. Now this is a facebook question, and either of you as a long time curator of first ladies. So kate wheeler on facebook says, the early first ladies were excellent correspondents writing hundreds of notes and letters in their lifetimes. And what condition are these early letters . I will go adams, we saw last week thousands of letters over the course of her lifetime. What about Dolley Madison . What did she preserve and did you have a sense of her legacy . I think she probably did have a sense of her legacy and shes writing to, i believe, her sister. As the british are coming to bring the white house. And shes telling her sister what shes doing and what she is saving so that, you know, there will be something to put in the history book. She wants it known that she is saving this date documents, the important pieces of silver, the portrait of George Washington for which she is so famous. But she is writing, literally, at everything is being packed to be carted off to virginia to safety. So shes very aware of what she is doing and she writes a number of letters to her family members. Susan, i want to weigh in because this questionnaire knows that, as historians, this is the heart of what we do. These are the primary sources. And for what along while, to find dolleys letters and what she wrote, it was hard to do. But in the 1990s and early 2000s halle showman and david matter in at the papers of change medicine at the university of virginia began collecting her behaviors and published them and a lovely book called the selective letters of Dolley Madison. But halle is now the web master of the Dolley Madison digital edition, which anyone can find in their librarian and has every letter to and from dolley. These are the papers that are really crucial. And we also have this great account from her niece, mary, cuts and she writes about her aunt. A lot of the stars have to come from dolley herself. That tells us that, late in her life, shes getting a sense of her legacy. So she, of course, cannot obtrude up on the Public Notice as a man would, but we think that she kind of coopted her niece and gave her these memoirs, which weve now just published for the first time so people can read. We have our first video to show. You will cut throughout the night and visit places that were important to Dolley Madison. And this is the white house. When you go on tour, you visited a room called the red room. It was an important part of Dolley Madisons parliaments. Lets watch. The portrait of Dolley Madison hangs in the red room. She sits in a red chair, and red fabrics have already complemented the fabric in her chair. So shes clearly an inspiration for that room. The red room was, in fact, yellow under Dolley Madison. It was her yellow parlor, in the red color was introduced more in the 18 twenties and thirties. The furniture of the period that is in that room now is american empire style furniture, it wouldve been that cell in her lifetime. Also the fact that to the most interesting art objects are the bust of martin van buren, the white marble bust by harlem powers and the portrait of his daughter in law angelica that has the white marble was painted into the background. And the fact that Dolley Madison its connected to the three years later. I mean, when president van buren was inaugurated in 1837, president madison had died the year before and she moved back to washington. And she was the most important woman in washington. And the president van buren was a widower. Dolley madison basically introduced angelica to her husband to be which was the president eldest son. And so, she became the de facto hostess of the white house. And so, entered the chain of first ladies even if hes not strictly a wife, but largely as a result of Dolley Madison doing a little matchmaking. What condition was the white house when the medicines moved in, and washington d. C. As a new capital city . Washington d. C. Was a very muddy place. And abigail had ridden home that it was the very dirtiest hole of a place that she had ever been in her life. You know, the roads were rooted. The houses were separated far apart. So its not like we think of it today at all. Its very rudimentary. So, i think what will she is doing is building a social Network Among the women so that a lot of this is overlooked or, you, know politics and diplomacy and fashion can carry people over the fact that we are not living in some fantastic capital of the world. A question on twitter from and who asked, did dolley no apple go adams or Martha Washington and did they get along . Yes, actually. Dolley madison new Martha Washington because she was there when Martha Washington was first lady. In fact, her niece this is one of the stories ernie said that when James Washington was courting dolley, and Martha Washington cornered her and said, is it true what you say about you and George Madison . And she blossoms demurred. And Martha Washington apparently said that we think its wonderful. The general i think its wonderful, even if hes much older than you. Whats interesting about africa adams if we have one letter, i think in 1816, so quite far into apple gayles life. She writes acting a favor of Dolley Madison. And she says, even though weve never had the pleasure of having an acquaintance, so we know they did not meet. But what so interesting is that abigail is asking Dolley Madison for passionate, that is to give a job to a relative. And sometimes you ask is why we study womens history and first ladies and, the big answer for me is that we learn things that you wouldnt know otherwise. And if you look at Dolley Madison, you understand the a huge patronage network. Men would not touch passionate, its to royal, to courtly, to corrupt. But their wives and daughters are playing patronage the whole time. And so we have this moment where we have a former first lady and a former president s wife asking another for patronage. Lots of people and receding on others behalf. We saw that was part of what was thought of a First Release for role at that period. We saw henry clay in the opening video. In addition to hinder replay, who were some of her biggest congressional allies in the period . Well, henry clay is one of the sort of famous one. And the reason we kind of know about him, again, it gives you a glimpse behind the curtain into how politics. Works leading up to the war of 1812, James Madison really wasnt sure you want to go to war. In fact, he was so secretive about it, scholars disagree. Something he was dying to go to war, some people not. He shortly had to kind of walk a fine line. And if he decided he didnt want to go to war, he needed to have allies. He couldnt ally himself with henry clay in the war hawks, but he had dally to do it. So we have several famous stories about dolley and henry clay sharing a snuff box to gather and everybody talks about the snuff box. And we have to, again, look at these things not a sip lever the mentions or just descriptions but as a former political analysis. When people at the time were looking at that, they want to saying, look at Dolley Madison with henry clay. Theyre trying to read the energy and the wind. So she quit people both sides of the aisle, that was good for her. But when she single somebody out for special attention, people knew there was something up in the. Air our site is a very robust site with lots of information about these women. And a each week theyll be a video that you can only see in the web. If you go there tonight, youll see the Dolley Madisons snow. Foxhound timeless nafta . Her she was addicted, im afraid. Yes, part of that image that she will talk about that. This is another one of those modern concepts of the earlier age. Beverley askeds, it seems like the women patriots knew how to use their own power for the sake of their own country. Where the real feminists . Or why is trying to please their husbands . Perhaps a little of each, i think these women were aware of their place in history. And, particularly, if you are a first lady for even early on, you know that you are essentially positioned to influence aspects of politics. I think they would have never used that term, feminism, or feminist but i think they knew exactly what they were doing. And they enjoyed wielding the power that was given to them. First question by phone comes from scotty in dickson, tennessee. Hi, scotty. Are you there . Im calling into your show for the first time. Great. Welcome. Thank you. What i wanted to know is when Thomas Jefferson was president , and Dolley Madison was helping him as a hostess, did she know anything about the affair that she had with Sally Hemmings . So, the selling hemmings question. Yes. The big story for her is not really helping Thomas Jefferson as a hostess, although she did step in. We dont know anything much about Dolly Madison. Theres a story in the hemmings family, and i read about it in Elizabeth Downing taylors book about paul jennings, who was the first person to write a white house member. He was a slave. There is a story in the family that Dolley Madison asked Sally Hemmings to name one of her sons after James Madison, and that she would give sally a gift. And this rendition of the story, she doesnt give the gift. A related question from michael on twitter, what was Dolley Madisons opinion of Thomas Jefferson, and did the medicines ever visit want to cello . I think they visited back and forth. They were good friends and had known each other for many years. Maybe you have more information on that, but what is additions between montpelier and want to cello . Its a little ways. Its a little ways. In fact, we talk about retirement years, the few times James Madison leaves his montpelier is to visit Thomas Jefferson. I think what is significant is that thomas arson seemed to love her, even as she is conducting the Social Circle under his nose and hes a great hater. Nobody hated like Thomas Jefferson. So the fact that he seemed to adore dolley speaks volumes about her. And chose her as the host is when he needed one in the white house. Catherine is up next in houston. , i. But you are taking my call. My question is, i know that Dolley Madison was raised a quaker and married her first husband who was a quaker and a member of the french church, and then she left it and married James Madison. Ive read about how her father freed his slaves in testimony to the abolition of slavery. And i was just wondering how did how do you think her quicker upbringing influenced her as a first . Lady okay, briefly because will spend more time on that later. Well, ill come to the chase because my theory is that the central tenets of quicker isnt is to regard people as inner lights, as god, which is why quakers dont use titles. And dolley goes on to be famous for becoming incredibly empath again sympathetic and warm. And people said, when you talk to her, it was like you are the only person in the room. I think that come from her quake earnest. I think the fact that she was able to take on this roll into so well was that quakers belief men and women were equal. You dont get any sense of her of being lesser than. She sits right and and does her thing. I think that comes from her quaker background as well. The First White House allocated a salary of 25,000 dollars for the president. Was it about that time by the time that the medicines got to the white house . I dont know. Do you know . Im presuming it was, when we did the white website to translate, its about 1. 1 Million Dollars today which is a lot. Its a healthy sum. Compared to what weve paid the president today. But who paid for all of these social functions . Did they have to pay out of their own salaries for all the events that we are talking about . Yes that was a deal about going into Public Service. This is why rich men, rich a white man, were supposed to take on the burden of Public Service because a lot of it comes out of the pocket. The medicines were not the president ial couple to leave much poorer than when they had come in. What congress to do was give her quite a half the amount to redo the executive mansion, which she did very well, may i say. Its been that money very well. A furnishing budget. Because the previous occupants had about their own furniture in many instances. And then, when he left the presidency, they took at home. Jefferson was one of those that did that and washington, when he was in new york and philadelphia. But this was, this is a thing that dolley wanted to do because she felt that it needed to have a stately, elegant look for the new nation. And so she took the decorating very very seriously. And wanted to make it look as if it could be on somewhat equal terms with the powers of europe so that they could conduct diplomatic negotiations in a popular setting. But it sounds to me, after now three of these, theres this constant push pull between wanting to be seen as equals with europe, but also issuing all the things they revolted. Well if it gets resolved for the women . You fight against everything and how do you express legitimacy the only vocabulary power that they had is royalty so you have these strange moments where john adams is arguing for titles for the presidency and the women of these families took it on. Martha washington is lady washington, James Madison is mister president , dolley its clean dolly. So the men had to trot at this very sharp line, and that is one of the messages she is sending out. Its only when you look at the women at that time that a lot of that beginning of the american nationhood is predicated on royalty. Who called her the president trusts . I think that was samuel mitchell. A lot of people called her the president ress. Who called her queen dolley . A lot of people. She dressed a queen, thats what you see in the reports and the letters. So she looked every inch a queen. Her materials were brought in paris, so shes very elegantly dressed and she looks to americanize as a queen. And thats fine, because shes not the head of state. So shes walking a very fine line where she expresses the, you know, the finer things to which the nation inspires but she is not royalty. So shes always walking this very fine line down the middle. You have provided a wonderful segue to our next video. Because at montpelier, which is the restored homes of the medicines and open for tours, and put it on your list if you ever get to virginia, they have a display the talks about Dolley Madisons dresses and were going to show you that. Most of the dresses we have at the Visitors Center at montpelier are based on descriptions that we have the way that dolley dressed. But one dress that we own is a recreation of something that we still have. This is typical of the style of the day. It shows classical lines, a simple drape, and it was much more simple and elegant then the fashion either before or after it. And this was the sort of style that dolley would have worn while she was first lady. Its the regency style. But many of the dresses were more elegant. This represents what she wore at her inaugural. This is James Madisons first inaugural. And at the ball, she wore what was described as a simple buff velvet. And she wore pearls, which was something both more classically elegant but less ostentatious than the diamonds that you would normally find in the courts of europe. Dolly was setting a style that was unique to american fashion. Now, a lot of people think that dolley said the fashion of the turban, and that is not true. It began in purja, and then moved through france and england. But dolly popularized the style and that was your classic look, to wear some sort of extravagant turban, often topped with feathers. People noticed it and they thought that her fashion was a little bit too regal. There was one incident where she wore something that was lined in our men and she wore some gilded edging in her turban. And people said that this was overstepping things. She looked to regal. She looked to queenly, and they were afraid that queen dolley was setting the wrong tone for republican america. And till the end of her, life dolley were many of the fashions that she wore in her earlier day. And some of this may have been to evoke that american founding, as she was the last living matriarch of this generation. Some of it was because of the growing penury in her life. She didnt have the money, and repurpose them. She had several dagger types and she is often wearing the same thing. Edi mayo, we should mention that she was quite tall. Yes, she was five seven and a half, which was very tall and four or so inches taller than her husband. Dolly with her turbans and feathers, and james mattis and still in the style of the revolutionary founding fathers, it doesnt work for me. A lot of the criticism is focused on this James Madison who was so tiny and pick like, and someone called him an anchovy, and this is a time when a Political Authority was a man. So Thomas Jefferson, they can talk, washington described as a honk and the previous program. And then you have this little tiny guy, and it wasnt just about. Him with the big brain. But this is why you have the press secretary coming, out edward goals, dolleys cousin saying hes five foot four or something. Why do we have the press secretary coming out to say this . I dont know. Its because size mattered. And all its height and her good health led to all kind of scurrilous rumors about her sexuality, has she was overly sexual, that she was to, and their phrase, hot. And so the reason that the medicine never had children was because she was literally burning up his essence. When you read the newspapers of the time, he realized i think for quite serious for these people. Also, during the campaign, he was accused of having an affair with jefferson because she had been the hostess on various occasions, and it extrapolate into of arsenal affair. People had ever thought that scurrilous accusation was the truth. A question about Dolley Madisons approach to this image. Was this a conscious decision to stand apart as opposed to personal taste or vanity . She was creating a brand. We have to look at the context. We all know it was very fragile, and theres not of structure. So we have to talk about the personalities, and on the figure of the person. So we have all these descriptions of George Washington, and all shes doing is removing her glasses, and all this stuff, and it seems that George Washington is posing for statues. Interestingly, the descriptions of her are on the move. So we understand that its not just fashion report, but also a former political analysis. And she is deliberately creating this, so shes not wearing what an actual queen would wear, or what actual court dresses, shes wearing an adaptation. But she imagines americans as queens. So she put those plumes to make yourself taller. Yes, descriptions of what she was wearing and how elegant. Were they proud or aghast . They were proud. The federalists were a little bit put off by the, thought it was too regal, a little bit too queenly, a little bit to court like. But there was a lot of discussion about creating a Republican Court with a small are. And that is a group of people who headed up government but with the idea of having it a republic instead of a monarchy. That is part of what she was, doing and part of the things that was ingenious about dolley if she takes european influences and filters him through a democratic lens. They give you something to aspire to, and how elegant it can be. But you dont offend people who dislike the courts. I want to get this in, but she also had a parrot. I dont want you to get a lot of calls, but it was a terror, and she plays the last moment when everybody fled the white house. Theres a french servant, and he takes them a call over to the Octagon House, where the french ambassador is staying. Somebody took her to montpelier, when somebody takes are in a tight, and shes a victim of a night hawk. You provided a wonderful tradition, because its time to talk about the important decision by medicine to go to war with Great Britain. And the eventual siege of the capital city, which happened in 1814, so there is quite a dramatic story about the approaching british troops. Should we start with you about that story, and edi will you fill it in . The background of all this is that the war of 1812 has been going on for many years, and there are various rumors that the capital was a target. And so, the main interests would say, no, never coming to washington. Baltimore is the place. So when the british to march, Washington City is not prepared. James madison is in the field, and shes alone in the white house. She begins a letter that edi referred to, on the day before the last day of the white house, august 24th, 1814, i hope i have that right. And shes waiting for her husband to come home while preparing for the worst. So shes writing this letter to her sister and she is observing how badly its going, and also packing things, so packing silver and the peoples possessions, and she sending them away in cards. Finally, the word comes, its time to go. And the british are coming. How endanger was she . If she waited any longer, she wouldve been captured. That wouldve been a huge prize of war. She knew that she had to leave. She knew she had to wait for a husband to come home, but that did not take place. They reunited a couple of days later in virginia but, apparently, she had to table set for dinner and the british came in and thought that was wonderful. She did save the portrait of washington, which was one of the things that endeared her to the entire nation. The Gilbert Stewart portrait, so she knew what she was doing. And as i said before, writing about, she knew what her place in history was going to be. Catherine allgor, are you write that this was symbolic because it was a copy of the painting, but the british cannot be seen burning exactly. As a historian, trying to figure out if he was as symbolic, its very in stark you look at the enemies. So admiral colburn framed all of his threats towards wellington as mrs. Madison. If you want to come and dine at mrs. Madison table, hes going to make about her drawing room, paraded through the streets. Hes not attacking jim medicine in rhetoric, hes attacking her. So we know she really was a kind of public figure. And when you got to the white house, and she wasnt there, he took things of hers including the cushion because he was too warmly recall missions madison seat. The dinner party is interesting, because it seems odd to have a dinner party when washington is an exodus, but she was trying to do what she has always done. She was trying to hold a capital gather even if it was falling apart. She had intended to have a dinner party that day. Heres the tax of that letter sheep into her sister as she was fleeing the white house. She wrote this, and, now theyre sister, i must leave this house or the retreating army will make me a prisoner in it by filling up the road im directed to take. When tell i again right to you or where i will be tomorrow, i cannot tell. Of course, after the british had burned washington, there is a great deal of conversation, even in congress, should the capital remain in washington, which was now destroyed or so they moved the capital back to philadelphia . So james and dolly, at least the Octagon House, which was only a few blocks away and began to entertain in a grand style and this really sends a signal to the diplomats in washington, to the people that they were not going to turn tail and run. They were going to stay in the capital. We will visit the Octagon House by video. This building is very important for Dolly Madison as a first lady, the octagon is two blocks from the white house, its a natural fit for james and Dolley Madison as they resume government as quickly as possible. For the different events that they have to have and the life of the president. This is the entry foyer, they have known and was very popular in those days. This is important room to welcome guests. Its a round of room and when you are in this room, no matter where you are, you are an equal. This was very important for dolley to make everyone feel welcome. This is a good example of why this was so important for dolley. She was known for our wednesday drawing room events where they became known as squeezes because you have 200 to 400 people coming, and up to 500 people were come during the war. This room could only fit 2 50 to 100 people, but it still serve that very important purpose. The country was still at war, and dolly was playing an important role, important members of congress would be seated at this table, and many in decisions took place in this room while dolly was a hostess. During wartime, it was very important to maintain a sense of decorum and business has to go on and continue. We have a question that they practice democracy, really liking to mix people and these events. Was that hairstyle . Thats what india her to people that she did have access to well dressed or properly dressed is the term and if you are properly dressed, you can have access to the family. This discussion about boots. Dolley madison gets criticize on both ends of the spectrum, something a lot of people would say. Shes to queenly and they are reaching out and suspicious of it, and they express their reservations around this issue of boots. A gentleman will never come onto a carpet with boots on, he would come with shoes. We remember that washington was a very muddy place and they pointed to that as a sign of a dangerous democratic tendencies. This is a very specific question of local history. Is it true that she escaped washington during the war of 1812 through what is now mclain virginia, on what is now jefferson boulevard . She goes first to bellevue, she visits the home of the secretary of war, but goes to bellevue, which is now a house that you can go and visit, and right from there, they do go across and that route that we figure, and she spends the time at a plantation. She ends about that house that is Still Standing now, so she does wander through the ridge in your countryside, and i think that the road reflects that. Was she safe when she across the river . Its private housing, but i was lucky to go there, but when she standing on the hill, she could see washington burn. Barbaras up next. Can either of your guests spoke to a story i read about Dolley Madison that he stopped at a store in baltimore that was on by a black woman named on sally and that it was there that she first tasted ice cream and she loved it and after that she served it very frequently at her social gatherings. Do i love your guests know anything about that . Thanks, im glad you asked that question because ice cream and Dolley Madison became synonymous, well later on and 20th century america. I dont know the accuracy of that particular story at all. I think jefferson was the one who was credited with actually bringing ice cream back from france and dolley served in the white house, but where she found it, i dont know. After say the story, which sounds frivolous as the ice cream question, but it has a serious import. The story is probably not true because ice cream does exist, i think the washington served it. But this Association People tell me, oh Dolley Madison impinged ice cream, but what she did is almost immediately, while she was living in after her death, she becomes closed associated as a symbol of american womanhood. And her name and her image get coopted by everything to do with, ice cream, hairpins, even theres a sexy dolly brand of cigars. So she becomes a brand so quickly that this association and ice cream becomes one thing that people think she invented it. But it goes to important she was and how large she loomed in the american imagination. And how people want to do attach whatever their product was to her name and that would recommend it. She sort of foreshadows what Francis Cleveland does in the late 19th century, where francis is face and neymar plastered on all kinds of products for sale. Today, how the white house is approach that . I think they try to skirt it as much as possible. Lewis in washington d. C. , welcome. Thank you. Fascinating program. Ive enjoyed being on with you before. But no questions, he was extraordinarily courageous, and you touched on part of my question, what we heard, here she is, shes not just worried about getting out herself. We know that she walked, she ride, when she took those valuables including the stewart painting, one of the drawings, but how she personally get away and where would you have crossed the potomac to get over into virginia . Do we know . I think catherine should take that one. But do i get the geography questions . Ill say this. She sends all of the papers, including James Madisons notes on the constitutional convention, she takes them and sent them away in these cards. At the last minute, she decides on this painting, and as you said, theres some evidence that it might even be a copy, but it did not matter. She understood the psychological import, so she got her servant and her slave to wrestle it off the wall and break it out of the frame and she gave it to some gentleman from new york to put it in a cart and took it away. All this is getting scattered to the four winds, hoping something will survive. And see herself is taken away by carriage. And she does cross, but i dont know where. Don is in new york. Thanks for taking my call. I understand that Dolly Madison died in poverty, and i was understanding why that was true, and how that happened. Secondly, i know that elijah hamilton lived around the corner from Dolley Madison in their old age, and i would curious if they ever interacted. How far into American History before president had pensions . A while. Certainly it might have been the germans. The founding generations not at all. What they had was what they lived on when they retired. And the supposition was that if you are wealthy enough to get into politics in the first place, youd be able to support yourself afterwards. But dolley had a near 12 son whose name was tied from her first marriage, and he ran through their estate. He ran up enormous debts, he ended up in daughters prison twice, and each time james and dolly would bail him out. And then after madison died, dolley unwisely put him in charge of montpelier. And that was a disaster. So she ended up losing montpelier and living in poverty. Will she just not a judge of her sons character . We all have laws. And one of the great political gifts that you brought at this contentious time in american politics is her refusal to contend. She did not fight and she squelched dissension around, which is great. Its not a great when you have a son who is being spoiled and needs to be curbed, and this was her blind spot and all that that goes great and politics, is not going to work with him. I want to ask about elijah hamilton, and they did know each other. In 1848 when they lay the cornerstone for the washington monument, the sponsors or whatever decided to bring the relics of the republic, because windows were called relics, so they invited Dolly Madison and elijah hamilton, so people of the time. These women were representative of the time. We have 35 minutes left in the time to answer the question of who was this woman who became internationally famous. Weve visited the house in philadelphia where she looked as a quaker, it will show you that right now. This was the dolly town house in philadelphia, its here where she becomes a wife, mother and because of the yellow fever epidemic, a widow. This was the kitchen, and you will probably fine dolley with her two sisters, when she married john todd, she would often have her younger sisters living here with her. They may have had they service, but they did not believe in slavery and her husband actually gave free legal advice to abolitionists in the city. This was the dining room and this was a multi use room, not only did the family dying here, but they also used it for educational purposes. They believe that both men and women should be educated, so there are books here, and a slate for educating our sisters, and later her son. In august of 1793, a french ship arrived in philadelphia and it was carrying passengers suffering from yellow fever. Anyone who had milling sent their family outside of the city, and jon todd, as a successful lawyer, did exactly that. He said dolly in those two babies across to the school river and he died of yellow fever on october 24th. The same day that john todd dies, dolleys baby will die as. Well not only did she lose her husband, but also she has the Quaker Community watching her. She has gentlemen that are interested, even when she walks on the streets, her friends with ease her that all the men would stop to stare at her. The quakers are watching very quickly, even one of her friends ones that she needs to be aware that they are watching her, that they need to do right by her son because the household, this property is partly his property to, even though hes only two years old at this time. So dolley has to contend with the scrutiny of the quicker community, and even has to go to Orphans Court to petition the court to be the guardian of her own son. That was the situation in those days with women in terms of rights. Also, even though dollies husband had made her executor of the well, her brother in law head kept back the property. And so, she has to hire a lawyer to protect her interest from her own brotherinlaw. Well, this is on the second floor of the house. This is the parlor. This is where you would entertain your friends. One of the men that was interested in meeting her was James Madison. He was a congressman here in the capital city. Philadelphia was the temporary capital of the United States at the time. Its an exciting place to be. James madison was friends with aaron burr. Erin burr had been living in dollies mothers boarding house. So dolly new erin burr. It was erin burr that lets her know that James Madison wishes to meet her. So James Madison would meet dolly and we believe here in this parlor for their first meeting. In the Quaker Community they expected at least a year of mourning before he could get married again. So it really raised eyebrows in the Quaker Community that she would marry within less than a year. She was very scrutinized by the quakers for that. The fact that he is not a quaker means that she will be drummed out of the community as well at a meeting as they say. Im well, that video gave us a very broad overview of the biography of Dolly Madison, so lets fill in a few of the blanks. First of all, where was she born . That is a bit of a family scandal. She wants very much to be considered virginian born and bred. Her mothers folks are indeed from virginia and probably her father as well. But what happens is that john payne converts to quakerism which mary coles, her mother, is quaker. And they go off and they live in the frontier which is in North Carolina in a Quaker Community. And as far as we know, they were just going to move there. And dolley is born in North Carolina. So she is North Carolinas only first lady. But whats sad about that is she spends most of her life denying it. Something went bad on the North Carolina frontier and we think it has to do with her fathers rather shady Business Practices and they moved back to virginia. And so, she sorts of is raised in that sort of loving circle of kith and kin in the gentry world of chattel slave holding. Well, her father released his slaves as a quaker. And is that the cause of his inability to continue his business . He couldnt make the economics of it work . I think he had other problems besides that. He couldnt farm, so they moved to that chilly Northern City of philadelphia. Well if, and edith, im not so sure if you know her thoughts about slavery but her life was affected by her fathers decision to release his slaves. How did she recognize soil herself to have actually having slaves in the white house . That is a very good question. Im not sure i quite know the answer to that. But she did not free any of her slaves as her father had. And she didnt speak out against slavery. So the quaker background there did not affect her slave holding. I dont know, are there letters about that because so this is why historians have a hard job. Theres a real dichotomy. Yes she grows up in the world of slave holding, the father freeze the slaves and they go to philadelphia. And for about ten years things are terrible for the paynes in philadelphia children die, her father gets drummed out of the quakers, her mother has to open a boarding house. Shes sort of pushed into marrying john todd. She has two children, one of them dies. Its all horrible. And then, she is this widow, this beautiful 25yearold widow and you could argue in what has been the capital of United States, she could have had her pick of any man, right . But she picks James Madison. Now, it turns out to be a great pick. But why did she do that . And i think its one of those moments where she said, i could go back to the world that i lived in, the world of exactly. But we dont have anything from her at that time. What we do know is by the time shes a woman in middle age and old, she has exactly the same kind of weird attitude towards enslaved americans that southerners had which is a kind of inability to understand them as humans. And so, when James Madison dies and he doesnt free slaves which everybody thought he would, everybody begins to blame dolley. And part of thats fine because she does starts selling slaves as soon as she can. But some of that is a kind of a reflection of their disappointment with James Madison. What about her quaker roots affected the kind of woman she became, if this particular aspect of it did not . Yes. I think were back to and the peacemaking. Yes. The not warring. The idea that you dont make war, you conciliate. Do we know if she counseled her husband against going to war since quakers dont believe in fighting wars . We dont know. She was for all of this that were talking about if you really read her letters, shes as partisan as anybody. And she has that kind of white house defensiveness that happens when youre the president and president s family to defend your husband against all people. So i think she probably supported him 100 percent of what he decided to do, but her own nature was always to conciliate. Heres a question by twitter. Justin asked, how did we feel about womens education . Well one thing we know about her is that she was a very well educated woman for her day of any class. Were not exactly sure how she got there because she was a southerner. And southerners not necessarily graduate and educate their children. But she spent time in philadelphia which was a sort of a center of female education. But we know from her handwriting that she was very well educated. Now she never had a daughter so, we really dont know what she wouldve done but im sure she wouldve given her daughter is good as an education. But growing up in the quaker tradition they didnt believe in educating women as well as men. So she benefited from that. And, you know, she takes that background with her into the marriage and then into the first ladys role. On facebook, ruth wants to know, what qualities did she see in James Madison when he was so much her opposite . Well, i think opposites attract many times. I think she was very impressed with his intellect. And, in private, he was thought to be very amusing and very entertaining. And so, i think thats the side of him that she saw while they were courting. And its interesting that aaron burr provided the link between the two. You get the sense of the these people who are part of the american cannon really were all a very small community. Yes. Its a small world. And i have to say that James Madison immediately fell in love with her. The family lore is that he saw on the street like a lot men just fell for her and was very romantic which is he was in his almost mid40s and he had never married which is very odd. But marriage is a very pragmatic business in this in this age. And romantic love isnt necessarily a part of it. And so dolleys approach to the marriage was rather pragmatic. He was a good person. He would be a tender protector for her son. Now, as the marriage went on, i think she fell deeply in love with james. And james got over his infatuation to love her deeply as well. But we have to remember that marriage was a was a pragmatic business and she property to be managed. And someone who would do that honestly and well. And had a reputation for running his own family. We have rick up on next from manhattan, kansas. Thanks rick. Two questions if you would. First, did mrs. Madison travel abroad . If so when and who did she visit . And then among modern time first ladies who might dolly have compared with . Thank you for your call. Thats great. So did Dolly Madison travel . Abroad travelled abroad. She never did. But one of the things that diplomats who came from abroad were just amazed by that because she was so conversant. Yes. And so, like a wife a diplomatic wife or a queen. Right. So they did marvel they did marvel at that. That she had that quality. And did in fact how did she get her knowledge of french fashions, for example . Well, she ill tell you, if you knew Dolley Madison, you could not go anywhere whether it was a city in america or in france without having to shop for her. So she knew it because she sort of knew the right people. Also, very early on she became the first lady of the french ministers wife thoreau and she sort of schooled her in fashion as well. And then, she hired Jean Pierre Sioussat who as her major domo or her master of ceremonies in the white house who was french and familiar with all of the diplomatic nicety, shall we say, so that he would explain to her what kind of food was served and what the french taste was and what french cuisine was about. So she had a number of people who helped school her in this kind of thing. And im still curious about the economics of all this. So today, the white house staff is large and there all these people in roles of press secretary and councilor. Did all of this come from the money that they were paid by or from their personal wealth, so all this extra staff and advisors that you talk about . I think probably most of them did. I mean, for instance one of the things she hired as they called him french jean, away from the minister from Great Britain which was a huge flap. I mean, to hire somebody away from someone elses household, particularly when that person was in the Diplomatic Community was an insult on the one hand or a great coup on the other. And she was able to do that. Yes. And a lot of the madisons resources went toward creating these outfits, these ensembles that at one point she was, she got the bills and she was just like, dont even tell my husband. Because between buying it, the stuff from france, and paying the duties on it, it was quite it was quite a lot. Helene in olney, maryland. Hi. I wanted to ask you about the maryland component of this fleeing of the white house during the war. My understanding is that theres a house in brookeville, maryland thats called the white house for the day. And that my understanding is that madison arrived at that house and conducted business from there and i wondered whether Dolley Madison was part of that or if it was some kind of a transition from virginia to maryland . I do not have the answer to that question. I do not have the answer to that. Either yes, i do not know it. Im so sorry. Julian sorry. But you know that gives us another stop. I would like to go back for a minute and give my opinion about the second part of the question which was, who compared in the present . I would say jacqueline kennedy. I think she looked at imaging, her husband was an administration and recreating the white house as a stage for the conduct of politics and diplomacy through her renovation of the white house, in the same way that dolly looked at the white house as a stage and imaged her husbands presidency. So i see a lot of comparable activity and things that she was trying to achieve as was jacqueline kennedy. She was a reform scholar of dolly. She was a fan and referenced her especially the redoing of the white house. And she had to love the french furniture. With regard to the renovation of the white house, you can go to the white house today can you still see evidence of the torching by the british . There are places in the basement where you can see burnt timbers. I know when they did the restoration of the white house under the trumans, they found a lot of charred wood and charred bricks and so forth that were sort of taken out and saved as remnants from the fire. Were showing some pictures of the charring right now. You can see it on the truman balcony also. Mrs. Laura bush took me out and showed me, and she told me that her husband quite mischievously lead out the british Prime Minister and showed him, maybe not diplomatic, but it was funny. How complete was the destruction of the white house . Pretty complete inside. It had to be almost wholly rebuilt. How long did it take to rebuild . Well, they didnt move back in. It wasnt until the man Rose Administration that they were able to move back into the white house, so i would say a few years. Weve got 18 minutes left and its time to move in this brief look at a very complex part of our history and a very interesting and long life to the retirement after the Madison Administration. James and dolley returned to their beloved montpelier in virginia piedmont and were going to visit that place next. So if you were a visitor to montpelier, you would enter here at the front door and he would be shown immediately into the great drawing room. Mrs. Madison had many lady friends that she would invite here. Margaret baird smith was a favorite of hers and the daughters of thomas jen for us and were also frequent visitors. Her most it to mid circle usually included her own family. Her sisters especially, ana and lucy, were always very welcome guess as well as many nieces that she had. They often stayed for extended visits here at montpelier. Now, the drawing room by many different themes into one, you see many of the faces of the Great American statesman but you also see figures of classical antiquity. You see the bust of pallas athena. Palace athena. You have production of the declaration of independence. You have a miniature of home are, the writer of the great ethics of greece, and then you have a painting of the pan, nips and youths. This was 200 years old even when the medicines purchased it and in this way, a blending of the classical in american, they are trying to place the american founding an important events of world history. This is a rumor all the guests would assemble before dinner. They would have a chance to meet one another, they would have a chance to converse socially and casually. Then they might be invited to dine in the dining room. After supper the ladies would adjourn back to the drawing room, maybe play a game, maybe serve some coffee and tea. This was the social center of the house. If you are uninvited guest of the medicines or a part of the intimate circle of family or friends you would be divided into the dining room for the drawing room. Here, Dolly Madison would, in an unusual setting for the period would sit at the head of the table. Her husband, james would sit at the center of the table. Dolly would direct the conversation and james would be able to engage in intimate or lively conversation with the people to his immediate left and right. Now this table today set for eight people. But there could be as many as 20 people served in the dining room, that would not be unusual. Indeed Dolly Matheson consider dining it bump elliott to be so much more relaxing and entertaining in washington. Many as 20 people served in the dining room; that would not be unusual. And, indeed, Dolley Madison considered dining at montpelier to be so much more relaxing than entertaining in washington. She said she was less worried serving 100 people at montpelier than 25 in washington. Many important historical figures would be seated with james and Dolley Madison. Now, Thomas Jefferson, a close family friend was frequently here. James monroe is here. General lafayette; henry clay; Margaret Bayard Smith, Dolley Madisons good friend, a writer from washington. Once while mrs. Madison was serving at the head of the table, the Vice President Elbridge Gerry offered to do the honors for her. And she responded, no, watch with what ease i do it. And indeed, he had to admit that she did it with unparalleled ease. It was as if he said, she had been born and educated in versailles. And looking at their life when they returned there, how was it for them compared to when they lived in the white house . Well, i think they were besieged by people who wanted to associate themselves with the madisons. Many visitors, in addition to, i mean, political visitors in addition to family and friends sort of like the washingtons and the jeffersons, everybody wanted to meet the great personages. So they always had people, you know, in the house with them, not only their relatives but also many, Many Political visitors as well. She was clearly devoted to him and so important to him in getting all of his papers together and that a very important role. Was she happy there, do we know . Yes, because at that point, she loved her husband very much. And montpelier was where he wanted to stay. He didnt want to go and so she stayed as well. Its interesting to the descriptions of her at this time arent those kind of same political fraught descriptions. Shes described as happy, contented, adam and eve in paradise. I think she probably would have wanted to visit a bit more. She definitely missed washington and she would write to her friends in washington and say, tell me all the news. And she would sometimes complain a little bit, i havent been out and you know. Keep me up to date. Keep me up to date and let me know just let me know whats happening. So i think for her own self, she probably would have wanted to go back to washington for a visit, but James Madison was going to stay put. We just did the math quickly. She was 49 years old when she left the white house. Remember he was 17 years her senior. And we saw that she worked to continue to involve him even when he was in his last days with his final illness. Before we talk about her years back in washington, because she lived until the age of 81 and was very much involved in the washington scene, lets listen to sherry in charleston, south hello. I have a couple comments about Dolley Madisons clothing and fashion and i have a question. I used to be a docent at the greensboro North Carolina Historical Museum and we happen to have some of her belongings which included and does include the original of that red velvet dress that we saw at montpelier. Also, we owned the a pink silk dress that she wore while she first lady. And whats very interesting about that piece of clothing was that when we had it conserved by the wonderful people from williamsburg, virginia, they found out that the teeny tiny little round buttons on the front of the pink silk dress were they were filled with dried peas. So thats what her dressmaker did for her with french fashion. Also she as she grew older and her hair became very, very thin, she did have some real human hair curls sewn into her turbans and she would put her turban on in the morning with those little curls showing and she looked younger, she thought. But my question is, the way the greensboro Historical Museum came into possession of these wonderful items including beautiful silk shoes and calling cards and carved ivory calling cases is they received it from some philanthropic folks who bought a trunk at auction that was sort of a hidden treasure. And i want to know what these ladies know about the finding of that trunk that was hidden behind the wall and i want to say it was in philadelphia. But i want to know how the person who had that hidden behind the wall got those things, those very important things and why they have them . Ok, sherry. Thanks so much for all the details. And ill just answer quickly because i want to say that this is happening in the 1950s and60s, so not that long ago. And the story of how the ladies of Greensboro Historical Society found and financed this collection deserves a Television Program on its own. Is that right . Yes. It was very fascinating. It really was hidden behind the wall and they raised money in a way i think that dolley would approve one Chicken Dinner at a time to pay the princely sum of 20,000 to get this valuable stuff. And is greensboro, North Carolina close to where she was born . Is that where the connection is . Yes. I think it was. So, again the ladies of greensboro felt like she was North Carolinas only born first lady, so they want it to save this legacy rather than having it be scattered to the winds and you can go there now and see parts of that. So Dolley Madison returns into washington after the death of her beloved james . How does she spend her final years here . She becomes the grand dam of washingtons society once again and because people know about her poverty, but dont want to actually confront her with it, people in the white house, the pokes and the tylers invite her to come to dinner on many occasions. The younger first ladies always ask her advice on entertaining and handling large crowds of people, so she becomes a sort of first lady advisor. And that is how she happened to do the matchmaking between Angelica Singleton and abraham van buren, the president son. So shes very much in the social mix again and very much behind the scenes player again. So this is not a tragic ending, the fact that shes in poverty. She manages to live quite a wellknown involved life. I think weve realized what you felt down at montpelier, because i think it was very lonely without james. She tried to hang on for a while. Eventually, shell sell montpelier. But you have to remember this is her. Town she worked for 16 years to build this town and the president s mansion as a symbol for washingtonians. In fact, it was under her tenure that the president s mansion got a nickname. They called it the white house. And, of course, all this comes to a head when they burned washington and the white house and so she can be credited with a kind of nationalism around the end of the war of 1812. And she has a vested interest in all of this too. And so, when she comes back to washington, it is like the past has come to light. And theyre mentioning in the video that she wore many of the same clothes. Im sure she would have loved to have new ones but she was poor. But, of course, it had this kind of aspect of making her seem like truly a relic from an era and everybody wanted to use her. From the revolutionary period. Everybody wanted to use her. Here is a very basic question we didnt answer from Jennifer Stewart on facebook. Was dolley her real name . It was indeed. Yes. It was indeed. Though, again, her niece tried to perpetuate this idea that she was named dorothy and then other people try to fancy it up with dorothea. But she was indeed dolley. And we try to figure out maybe why her family tried to and it goes back those scandalous rumors about her sexual affair or whatever with Thomas Jefferson. And they thought perhaps that dolley was too common a name for her, but she was dolley. And shes recorded that way. Her birth is recorded that way. With or without the e . With the e. With e. But you see it spelled sometimes along the way without. Thats the advertising again. The advertising is now that icon of dolley without the e. Madison supplants the real woman. John is in berwick, pennsylvania. Yes. I was wondering if Dolley Madisons first husband, john todd, was related to abraham lincolns wife, mary todd . Thank you. Thank you. Good question. I have no idea. Im going to go around the question and say whats important about that is that mary todd has certainly bruited that about. Now, todds a very common name and i dont know, im sure theres a todd genealogist out there thats going to help us. But when mary todd comes to town decades later and Dolley Madison has still set the example, mary todd tried to kind of like ride on her coattails by saying she was a todd she plays on that. Right. But she does not have dolleys sense of tone. Shes rather tone deaf when it comes to all of that. Here is a more specific question about her son. Is it true that dolleys son from her first marriage gambled away much of her money . Yes. Was it gambling that was his problem . Yes. And drinking. Yes. That will do it. Gambling and drinking will do it, yes. And did he continue his relationship with his mother in her later years or where they estranged . No. She didnt have a good sense to estrange him, did she . No, she did not. Robert in skokie, illinois. Your question about Dolley Madison . Yes. My name is rabbi bob browsen. And im questioning whats the relationship between mrs. Madison and mrs. Polk and harrison . And harrison . Do you know the relationship with the polks and the harrisons . Well, i think the polks became friends. As catherine was saying, people wanted to associate themselves with dolley after she came back to the capital city. And, you know, it was sort of cachet by association. So the polks often invited her to dine with them and to take part in, you know, parties and so forth in the white house. We should tell people about congress awarding her a seat. Yes. Yes. Well, she becomes, i call this her iconic faze where shes not just a person but she begins to become a symbol. And so theres a bust of her, theres a metal cast and shes awarded a seat on the floor of congress with escorts. Shes the only woman which is unheard of. Unheard of to do it and for a woman to do it. So theres a lot of attention being paid to her and she starts to become a symbol even if she is living. And did she avail herself of the debates in the congress . She was a Good Congress goer. Yes, she did. Yes. She did. That was always from the sort of start. In fact, one of the things she did for other women is that she would go to the debates and she would go watch the Supreme Court argue and that allowed other women to do that as well. And that was a way of bringing the women into a knowledge of what was going on politically, so that while they were part of this social network that she was setting up in washington, they could also be part of the Political Networks as well. And she would get the women together and they would go up to capitol hill and she called them, dove parties which was part of educating the womens side to what was going on in politics at the time. Im watching the time go quickly here. But debbie myers on facebook, didnt paul jennings, jamesformer slave, give her money at the end of her life when she was so poor . Yes. Money and groceries, yes. And ellen grasow wants to knowa question about Dolley Madisons letters. You spoke of how she was writing a letter to her sister in the midst of evacuating the white house. How did the letter get posted during an invasion or did she hold on to it . Well thats very interesting. I have to say that we only have this letter in her fair hand. So in 1830s, when we think shes beginning to think about her legacy, her friend Margaret Bayard Smith, the journalist that we saw, wants to write about her and she wants stuff from Dolley Madison. On the one hand, dolleys thrilled of being the topic of history but shes also kind of cautious. And she mentions this letter, but we dont actually have the original of this letter. We have a fair copy which Margaret Bayard Smith sort of reproduces. And, in fact, at washington history, that great magazine that William Seale has, theres a terrific article by David Mattern that suggested dolley may have altered that for historys sake because thats an excellent question. Thats a good pr move. Yes. Pam, youre going to be our last caller from here in falls church, virginia. Youre on. Great. Go ahead. Hi. I wanted to ask whether Dolley Madison had any kind of relationship with James Monroes wife Elizabeth Kortright monroe who i know travelled in europe and i believe was born in england and whether she had any grandchildren, i dont think so, through her son, payne todd . Well, thank you very much because that helps us set the stage for our future conversation. Did they have a relationship . I would say not terribly much, no. I mean, they knew each other as sort of plantation owners in the same area, but i dont think they were friendly. And were there any children . There were no children . Were going to say there were no legitimate issue, as they would say. Thats a nice way of putting it. And as we close here, heres a quote from Dolley Madison, we all have a great hand in the formation of our own destiny. We must press on that intricate path leading to perfection and to happiness by doing all that was that is good and handsome. Therefore, we can be taken under the silver wing of our rewarding angel. So our closing thoughts from Dolley Madison. We have time for both of you for your thoughts on Dolly Madisons importance and legacy. Well, shes important for several reasons. She does set a role of first lady and maybe edi will address that. For historians, we look at her because she lets us know, for instance, among many other things, the role of aristocracy in this firstgreat democracy. But in the end, the question asking us is really why does this matter . And i think for Dolley Madison what shes offered us is a model for governance that stresses civility and empathy. Now, Dolley Madison is modeling this for us. Shes not going to win, right . But we look to our founding generations because we need examples, we need role models. And her way of conducting politics, stressing, building bridges and not bunkers is a model that she has bequeathed us and one we can use for the future. And i think shes very important, as catherine says, for bringing those models but also for bringing women into the political mix at a very early time period. And her conciliation, her abilities to bring people together, wouldnt it be nice if we had dolley back in washington now . We only skimmed the surface in 90 minutes of 81 interesting years of life. If you want to learn more, here is our guests book, a Perfect Union Dolley Madison and the creation of the american nation, and our thanks to the White House Historical association for their help in this series. U. S. Trade representative robert lighthouse or testifies wednesday before the house ways and Means Committee about the trump administrations trade policy agenda. Watch live at 10 am eastern on cspan 3, online at cspan. Org, or listen live on cspan radio app. Wednesday night on American History tv beginning at 8 pm eastern, a look at the life of rachel jackson. Cspan in cooperation with the white houses historical association, produced a series on the first ladies examining their private lives and the public roles they played. First ladies,