At first i was very guilty. And then i realized that all of the things that are taught you not only by society but by psychiatrist to fit you in a mold and i rejected the mold and when i did reject the mold, i was happier. Mostly independent organizations all across the country, there are somewhere between 60 and 75 independent groups across the United States, maybe more because they grow up overnight. And this is a unified effort on the part of somewhere between 20 and 30 organizations on the east coast. The differences of approach and tactics. Certain groups tend to emphasize fill tant confrontation tactics and other groups emphasize educational approach, going into areas that people dont know much about homosexuality. Most groups provide social services to our own people, help for people in need. But this is a minor part of the effort. The major effort today is to change the social institutions that make life difficult for us. [ crowd chanting ] a portion film documentary from lilly vance and that is what the Stonewall Inn looked like today inside of the sunday New York Times is a demonstration that took place in july of 1969. And joining us from Greenwich Village, new york, is marc stein, the editor of the stonewall riots, the documentary history. Thank you for being with us on cspan and stacspan3, American History tv. We appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. Take us back 50 years ago this week. What happened . Well, the police in that period routinely raided gay bars. And that was certainly the case in new york city. And there was actually a raid on the Stonewall Inn a few days earlier and on the night of june 27th, the police began a raid and things proceeded in a fairly routine manner. Some of the patrons were allowed to exit the bar and some were detained. It was very common for the police to detain bar owners, bar managers, bartenders, people of color, people who transgressed gender, transvestites or drag queens or street queens and people who talked back or fought back. And so some people were detained inside of the bar. Others began existing tting the. By that time it was the Early Morning hours of june 28th, patrons and passersby gathered on the street outside and as the police tried to bring those they had detained in police wagons, the crowd began to erupt and over the next few nights there ensued riots in the streets, protests and demonstrations. At one point the police were trapped inside of the bar until reinforcements arrived and the Tactical Police were the Riot Control Police were called and tried to reestablish order on the streets. But the rioting proceeded over several days over the course of the next week. But why this location . Why the Stonewall Inn and why july or june of 1969. What triggered this particular set of riots . Well, it is a complicated question. The Stonewall Inn was mafia owned and managed as were many gay bars in new york city and some other american cities. And there was a system of payoffs whereby the bar owners, managers paid off the police in order to limit and never completely restrict police raids on the bars. But the police would raid the bars. Even if there were payoff systems in place. There are a lot of different accounts of why the police raided the bar that night. The payoff system might have broken down. There was a Mayoral Election going on and that was often a time when police would raid bars as part of a crackdown on vice, though the City Administration would appear to be promoting law and order. There were allegations of violations of Liquor Licensing laws, disorderly conduct, blackmailing and other allegations about the Stonewall Inn in particular. So that is probably why the stonewall itself was targeted. Why june, 1969 . That is a question historians have been debating for a long time. In goble terms 1968 was a major year that witnesses rebellions and revolutions around the world as well as police reaction, state reaction, violent state repression so in some respected we could see the stonewall riots in 1969 as an outgrowth of the worldwide vem developments happening and then they there were local developments. As i mentioned the Mayoral Election, just days and weeks before the riots took place. Mayor john lindsay had lost the republican primary to be reelected. Now lindsay was known to be a friend of the Gay Community in the late 60s. And he ended up winning the election in 1969. But he did so on a thirdparty ticket. And so in late june nobody knew that he was going to end up winning. There around that time was a series of Police Killings of lgbt people around the country. Los angeles, berkeley, oakland, california, and in new york city. And i think that contributed to the rage and the anger and the fury that lgbt people felt that night and in the days and weeks surrounding the stonewall riots. Our conversation with marc stein, a professor of history at San FranciscoState University and the editor of this book the stonewall riots, a documentary history. Were dividing our lines regionally and the number is 2027488002. But marc stein if you could tell us physically where you are situated. Well directly behind me in the new Stonewall National monument created during the obama administration. It is a small park, Triangular Park and behind the park is Stonewall Inn itself. It is the twostory building with beige stucco and a threestory building also part of the Stonewall Inn. So this is in Greenwich Village in new york city in lower manhattan. And what do the monuments represent . Well, when obama referenced stonewall alongside seneca falls and selma in his inaugural address, it really signaled a recognition that lgbt activism, lgbt movement was part of the broader aspirational struggles for social justice in the United States. And that was a very powerful symbolic statement on the part of obama as president of the United States, as first the first africanamerican president of the United States. And establishing the space, this monument here just is another way of signaling the road that has been traveled over the last not just 50 years but even longer, to achieve lgbt equality, a still unfinished process i might add. But it is quite complicated with the Stonewall National monument because this is a action on the part of the federal government which for many, many decades was quite oppressive toward lgbt people. Still we have problems with federal policy. And so there is a paradox that the federal government has recognized this space and yet continues to adopt policies currently, the best example might be the ban on Transgender Military Service members. So there is that paradox of recognition by the federal government but also ongoing struggles and problems by the government. And you mentioned the inaugural speech on january, 2015, here is what he said. We, the people, declare today that the most evident of truths, that all of us are created equal. It is the star that guides us still. Just as it guided our forbearers through seneca falls and selma and stonewall, just as it guided all of those men and women sung and unsung who left foot prints along this great mall to hear a preacher say that we could not walk alone. To hear a king proclaim that our individual freedom is inex trickablely found to the freedom of every soul on earth. [ applause ] that was then former president barack obama there 2013. And one more point about your location. Because the Stonewall Inn itself is, i guess the best way to say it, it is a rather cozy bar. It is not very big, is it . It is not very big. In the large scheme of things. But actually it was known in 1969 as one of the larger gay bars in new york city and in Greenwich Village. It featured dancing, it featured gogo boys. And so actually compared to some real holes in the wall, the Stonewall Inn was known to be relatively spacious. And why were these locations to important at that time to the gay and Lesbian Community . Well, in 1969 same sex was illegal in 49 out of 50 american states. There were also laws, federal, state and local laws that regulated lgbt speech, that regulated lgbt participation in many aspects of public life, difficult to get government jobs at the local state and federal levels in 1969. Bars, though, were a congregation place, a place where lgbt people could come together and socialize together and enjoy time together and in that sense some people argue that the bar was for the Lgbt Community what the church was for the Africanamerican Community or what the factory was for the labor movement. The central space for gathering, becoming active, developing ideas about social justice and equality. And in order to kind of get a sense of how the media covered the gay and Lesbian Community back in the 1960s, i want to share with you and our audience a portion of a now controversial cbs news documentary one in which dan rather has apologized for but mike wallace in 1967, the title of the program was called the homosexuals. Most americans are repelled by the near notion of homosexuality. Two out of three look upon them with disgust, discomfort or fear. One of ten said hatred. A vast majority believe it is an illness. Only 10 say it is a crime. And yet here is the paradox, the major of americans favor punishment even in private between consenting adults. A homosexual aware responds by going underground. They frequent their own clubs and bars and coffee houses where they could escape the disapproving eye of the society that me call straight. That from cbs news and marc stein, i know youre familiar with this program. As you hear and see that, your reaction . Well, the media was changing in the second half of the 1960s, as was the lgbt movement. So i think that program was quite soundly criticized by the priest stonewall lgbt movement but there were other media stories that were more accepting and more open to change. One example would be the New York Times magazine published a major story called civil rights and the homosexual in 1967. The wall street journal in 1968 published a major feature story on the gay rights movement. And more generally the lgbt movement had success in the second half of the 60s. And that was certainly true in new york city. So under the lindsay administration, there was a decline in sexual entrapment on part of police, a decline in arrest for sexual solicitation and some success in Court Decisions that allowed gay bars more freedom to exist and to prosper and thrive. So things were changing, actually, in the second half of the 1960s. When we turn to the stonewall riots themselves, the media reports were interesting, conflicting, and everchanging. So in the first week the New York Times, New York Post, New York Daily News did all cover the stonewall riots but it was buried knot news. It was not front page news. The voice did major stories and had reporters on the scene even trapped inside of the bar during the riots. And those were much more significant stories but it was really the alternative press and the lgbt press that covers the riots more sympathetically, more comprehensively and those are the stories that historians rely on along with oral histories and Police Reports and photographs for round out of the picture of what happened those week. And one of those the documentary of lilly van vance. Our guest is marc stein joining us from Greenwich Village in new york. Also the author of rethinking the gay and Lesbian Movement and city ofsterly and brotherly love as we talk about stonewall, the riots 50 years ago, a turning point for the Lgbtq Community. Tom is own for the phone from flint, michigan. Good morning. Good morning to both of you gentleman and to all of the viewe viewers. This will be brief. Just a little context. Im a gay navy veteran and grew up in a very much catholic household. And this issue is portrayed many different ways by many different folks and corners of society, but what it really is, it is about love. Its not about sex so much. Its about love. And good luck to anybody who is determined to fight love because youre really fighting quite a force right there. And coming from a religious background, the last thing ill mention is lgbtq issues are often by the religious right mentioned in the same breath as oh, abortion and a culture of death and things of this nature. But there is so much in the bible that is just taken way out of context and adhered to selectively. So it is about love, period. Have a wonderful weekend. Hey, tom. If you could stay on the line for a moment. You have personally felt discrimination as an openly gay american . Caller well, im glad you asked that. Because i value other viewers time as well as you two gentlemen. I served 20 years in the navy, retired. And i guess about 50 of it, sorry my voice is croaky, this morning, but about 50 was under socalled quote unquote dont ask, dont tell. The other 50 like my first ten years in the military was under the republican preferred do ask and well ask and do tell. And that was particularly repressive and draconian and could land you out on the street out of the job in the military extremely easily. I think bill clinton takes a lot of grief for dont ask, dont tell but it was a huge step forward from what was in place before that. And, yes, steve, the last half of any sentence here will be repression growing up in a particularly religious household, you Better Believe it. And thanks for asking. Tom, thank you. Marc stein, what are you hearing in his story . Well, i think it is interesting to see the movement as focused on issues of love. The prestoenl movement we called the homofile movement and it was chosen as the key term precisely because it referenced love rather than sex. But i could say the Gay Liberation movement that developed after stonewall and to some extent began even in the months before the riots, i would say placed equal emphasis on love, intimacy and sex. Sex was very central to the early Gay Liberationists. They wanted the legalization of sex, same sex and wants their identities to be recognized and affirmed and validated. So for a few years sexual issues were important to the movement immediately after the stonewall riots. Post stonewall riots in 1969 here is a look at highlights for the communities in 1973 the American Psychiatric association declaring homosexuality no longer a mental illness. And then in 1982, in the first two years of the reagan administration, use the term aids for the first time. Clinton signing the defense of marriage act. In 2011 president obama revoking dont ask dont tell. And the Supreme Court legalizing samesex marriage and the pentagon one year later bans the end of people serving openly and President Trump rescinding that ban involving transgender service. Lets get to tanya on the phone from new york city. Good morning. Good morning. Im tanya walker. Im an activist in new york and im transgender and im kind of high up in the Lgbt Community here. And i came out of the military to new york in 1986 and i met marsha p. Johnson down by the village and the piers. And i know that the Gay Community didnt like the drag queens because they were trying to be with the straight Community Back then. Marsha p. Johnson was a black trans woman at the stonewall riots who was fighting with the cops and i notice that most of the most of the photos and videos that we see, am i talking . Yes. Youre on the air, tanya. Did you have another question or comment . Caller yeah. And i wonder why he doesnt mention the black drag queens who were in front of the bar fighting that night like marsha b. Johnson and silvia berra. Thank you for the call. Marc stein. No, the caller is absolutely right. As far as we can determine, some of the leading roles in the riots were played by africanamericans, puerto ricans, transpeople and street queens and drag queens. It is uncertain whether they represented a majority of the people that participated in the riots but many accounts place them at the key moments leading the riots, displaying a real courage, a cant be courage we might say. Some individuals who were credited with int gating and leading the riots, Silvia Rivera and stormy delever and there were questions about whether they were there. Marsha p. Johnson herself explained that she wasnt there when the riot started but got there sometime later. So if we take her at her word, yes, she played an Important Role that night. And certainly other people of color did, trans people did but she may not have there right when the riots started. To dave in new york city. Good morning. Hi. Good morning. Thanks for cspan. I was 20 years old and come down, grew up on long island, i was a College Student upstate and i would hip down and go into the other bars, julius was the other bar, all mafia run and strange to me being sort of a macho kind of College Student wearing square, weightlifter, and young and wearing shirts, but boy the stonewall was an amazing place and i would go in early in the evening, before we went down christopher street toward the river toward the new bar dannys which i hadnt heard mentioned. So i went in about 10 00 until the evening to the stonewall maybe after julius and go to them and walk through. And it seemed all right. It seemed normal early in the evening. Then i walked down to dannys. Well when i came back, maybe two hours later, it was and i havent heard this in a movie or the commentary that i saw on cspan last night, a Wonderful Program of people that were there, the choice reporter. But i would say the queens, they were the bravest. They were lighting garbage i saw this, they were lighting garbage pails on fire from the outside. And throwing them in through the big window at the police that were inside at this point, who else, i dont know. So i stood outside, i remember standing on the bumpers of two cabs that were parked right there in front of it. And this is a first night. I think i was there for the second night. I was back on the island and it is hard to get in. So that is what i will never forget, that the police were sort of trapped inside and at the point that i got back there. And they were lighting garbage cans and throwing them in the window. That is all i wanted to say. That is really true. And, you know, it got a little better after that. A bit. But it took years really. I would guess to get to where we are now. Years and years. Decades and decades. Im 70 now. Thanks for weighing in and sharing your own recollections from 50 years ago this week. Marc stein, your reaction . Yes, well, my book reprints 30 media reports and other accounts of the stonewall riots from 1969. And it is quite interesting to see that the first accounts provided by the New York Times, daily news and new york, New York Post referred to the rioters as homosexuals or young homosexuals, but within a voice, the lgbt press were the leading role by what were transvestites referred to, or street queens. The most extensive coverage was in the local gay newsletter, a local Gay Rights Organization. Interestingly the transperiodicals of the today. They didnt cover the riots, but the gayoriented newsletter emphasized the prominent role played by street queens and drag queens in the riots. Things are quite complicated. We also have the issue of translation 250 years later. Today we tend to police the boundaries between gay and trans, but in 1969 many people were comfortable referring to themselves as both gay and transvestites. They didnt see the things necessarily in opposition or as mutually exclusive. We are looking back 50 years ago and marc stein is the author of a new book at what happened 50 years ago. Weve been talking about new York City Police officers that the Police Commissioner james oneil on twitter with this apology for the way officers 50 years ago handled the situation. I think it would be irresponsible not to speak of the events at the Stonewall Inn in 1969. I certainly wont stand up here to be an expert on what happened. I do know what happened should not have happened. The actions by the nypd were wrong, plain and simple. The action and laws were discriminatory and oppressive, and for i apologize. To the community that this should never happen in nypd in 2019. Marc stein, that apology from the new York City Police commissioner . In yes, maam stormgeneral td first step. I would like to see similar apologieses in many cities where lgbtq people were killed. But in addition storks are , we leadership, we still have only a few states where lgbt History Education is mandatory in the public schools. We still have policies, local stye and federal level especially with respect to trans people that could be addressed. Where is the funding for education and history of museums . Theres a longstanding History Museum in San Francisco. We could see more of those projects funded by city, state and local governments. More research into the history of lgbt abuse and harassment, including abuse and harassment by official government authorities. Those would be steps that would build on whats a symbolic apology at this point. Richard, good morning to you. Caller good morning. I wanted to discuss the beginning of my coming out and going into new york. I used to go to the gay pride parades, but only at night, because i didnt want to go near tv cameras and my very best friend who was a schoolteacher said he couldnt go to the parade until eveningtime, because he was was afraid he would lose his job as a couldle teacher. He loved his job as a Foreign Language teacher. I do remember enjoying halloween night on christopher street, but then there was a change during the Gay Mens Health Crisis i was in a storefront where they were setting up the telephone lines, things like that, and men much older than me i was probably 21, 22 tony sid because everyone was putting their name down on a piece of paper. Tony leaned over and said, you know, hes extremely young. Hes petrified his name will be on anything. So in that storefront with the Gay Mens Health Crisis, i didnt put my name on that piece of paper, because the first thing i thought is the nazi and the gay concentration camps and i would be put in a camp and possibly killed for being gay. We should point out christopher street is directly behind you, marc stein, and its become an icon place for gays and lesbians, and located where the Stonewall Inn is situated. As you hear his story, whats your reaction . The first parade took part in the summer of 1970 to remember the Stonewall Inn. There had been some parades on july 4th, beginning in 1965, and we are held for five consecutive years, but the decision was made by Movement Activists in the fall of 1969 to switch the annual recognition of the lgbt struggle from philadelphia and Independence Hall to stonewall and new york city. That became what we now know today as the gay pride parades. That eventually spread across the world, but the early parades in 1971, 72, 73, it was confide brave to participate and it was uncertain whether there would be vealens from harassers who might come and confront the participants. It was unclear whether the police would grant permits. In fact, in los angeles in 1970, it was only shortly before what was called christopher street west that the parade organizers received official police permits to conduct the march. They only did so under a judges order. So the first recognitions in commemorations of the stonewall rebellion, required a lot of courage of the participants, but many of us believe thats when the stonewall riots acquired the significance that they have today. There had been other lgbt protests and demonstrations before stonewall, but stonewall became central to the way that we narrate lgbt history really because of the annual commemorations every summer that have now gone on for 49 years. I want to put one point in perspective. Walter jenkins, who at the time was one of the closest aides to president lyndon johnson, worked with him to 25 years when he was in the senate, Vice President and then president. He was married, the father of six children. This is a forecast of walter jenkins, forced out of the white house after a sexual liaison with another man. He was charged with a crime on morals charges, and i mention that in 1964, to where we are today, with pete buttigieg, the mayor of south bend, indiana, openly gay, and among the top tier candidates running for the nomination. In that arc of history, what does it tell you . Candidates began running for office in the United States before stonewall. They werent generally successful, but there began to be successes in the early 1970s. The first in an arbor, michigan, City Council Members came out as gay and lesbian and ran and won election. Then there was a state northerly elected elaine nobel and harvey milk winning for the board of supervisors. Shortly after, a few governors by now, but there still has been a kind of a limit to that kind of success in electoral and appointive office. So we have yet to be an openly lgbt cabinet member. Do you think the country would elect an openly gay man in 2020 . Its an interesting question. I think buttigieg is showing the country that it is imaginable, it is possible. I would also remind everyone that we have yet to have a woman president of the United States. So there are many groups in American Society who have yet to be represented at the highest levels of government. I think its certainly possible, maybe even likely in our lifetimes there would be openly lgbt member of a Supreme Court, Vice President or president. According to the advocate there are ten in the congress list. Caller here in canada, its basically become a nonissue. I notice in the United States theres a lot of attention paid to even the terminology thats used, like lgbtq its units unfamily here and get your pin on how its dealt with and the language thats used and how its evolved as well. Thank you, dan. I lived in toronto for 16 years, so i know something that youre talking about. Thinking back to the stonewall moment, it was actually exactly at that moment the number of countries began to partially decriminalize samesex sex acts. That was right before the rights for canada, germany and wales. It was partial decriminalization. Theres a controversy in canada recently about the formal federal government apology for the criminalization of lgbt people, and the unfinished nature of those reforms that occurred in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I understand theres been action even this month on removing from the canadian criminal code some of the other criminal statutes that have been used to target lgbt people. Its important to remember its not just sodomy that was criminalized. People were harassed and abused with disorderly conduct, lewd conduct, obscenity law. In canada body house legislation, a variety of other criminal statutes. Youre doing a great job. I know the trucks behind you sometimes can drown out the noise, but we appreciate it. You are at the park thats now part of the National Parks service on christopher street directly across from the Stonewall Inn. Of course its open to the public. Our guest is marc stein, independence his doctorate from the university of pennsylvania. Tom is on the phone from washington, new jersey. Good morning. Caller good morning. I would like to say a quick story. I knew about stonewall and how much of a Remarkable Movement it started, the catalyst for the lgbtq movement, and i was walking alone by myself in manhattan, and i just happened to come across by pure accident, the stonewall memorial park. Its very, very good feeling, knowing that i was standing inadvertently in the middle of a catalyst for such a remarkable social justice movement. I was really taken back. So, again, just in brief, i wanted to thank cspan and professor stein for shedding a transformative light on this subject, and thank you all good enfor your time. I appreciate it. Tom, thank you for the call. How do you teach stonewall and its significance 50 years later . I think weve been trying to improve education for some years. Its really important for it to be integrated into our general narratives of American History. Its one thing for there to be courses on lgbt history in colleges and universities, but another thing entirely when lgbt history and the history of the stonewall riots gets incorporated into the general America History courses. A number of us are working hard on that right now. I think many of us try to teach that stonewall followed 20 years of political organizing. There was a prestonewall movement. Many of us try to teach the broader history of sexual and gender difference and variety in American History, so stretching back centuries, and then, of course its important to follow the story after the stonewall riots. How did the Gay LiberationMovement Development in the 1970s, the Lesbian Feminist movement. The transgender liberation movement. How about people organize autonomous movements, growing particularly strong in the late 1970s. How did that all change in the 1980s with the aids crisis . And what were the changes in more recent decades with legalizations, but also the complications of what it meaning to be recognized by local, state and federal governments, and the possibilities that liberation might be limited, might be compromised, might be unfinished in a variety of ways. So i think thats what a lot of us try to teach when we emphasize lgbt his torrie. You probably have spent more times than most historianing looking back at stonewall. What has surprised you the most . Well, this 50year commence ra commemoration, but even as i was working on nigh mu book, maybe i underestimated the extent of the public interest. Thats gratifies. Its an opportunity for us to teach about stonewall specifically, but teach about broader history and broader history of social Justice Movements. I guess its also frustrating about the myths, that it started the lgbt movement, when we know there was a preexisting movement. We see a lot of photographses circulating that purport to be from the stonewall riots. We actually have quite limited photographic evidence of what was going on, and really only one image published in the New York Daily News that captures the confrontation between the police and the rioters, so the internet creates the problem. Of course it creates many opportunities, but it also creates the problems of once a problematic representation is presented on the internet, and then it can go viral and spread, then we end up with lots of misinformation and misinterpretation. Our next caller is from ithaca, new york. Hester, welcome back. Caller thank you. 9. Good morning, are you with us . Caller yes, yes, i am. Can you hear me . We can now. Caller thank you, first of all, for everyone behind the scenes who put us all on every day. Its past ore Michael Vincent crea, and mice ministry is ecmen logical, egalitarian, one world life systems. Stonewall needs to not just by a historical site, it needs to be an insight into our history, and mr. Stein, i think we concur that not only the commemoration of these events and i didnt come out until i leave the seminary in 83. Then i went into the peace corps and won the most comprehensive case in peace corps when i was wrongly fired. One of the things they fired me for was being gay in senegal. Also, i have my masters of divinity, but my last paper at Catholic University was same gendered marriages, and what we do not realize is that what we need is a vehicle of veracity with the capacity to uphold those selfevident truths. So what we would like, i would think we need, with all the talk and everything is good about the reparations, about voting rights, about equal access i got fired by Trinity Church for standing up for a south african transgender woman to use the womens bathroom, that we need human rights courts. Im going to stop you there. Thank you for share your story, marc stein . One of the things the call ers emphasized was the potential liberating role by religion. Before the riots, religious leaders were important allies along with i would say the American Civil Liberties union, which was perhaps the most important ally for the prestonewall movement. In San Francisco they featured a number of ministers who allied with the activists of that day and really made important groundbreaking efforts in california, and those efforts continued after stonewall, so i think theres offense a tendency to think of the religious community as hostile to or at odds, but the fact is religious communities are divided. Weve had for several decades denom assassinations in the forefront fighting for inclusion and rights, and others who are in the forefront for opposing lgbt liberation, and even within some denominations that have been mostles, this is divisions within. Even efforts in the Catholic Church or Mormon Church to promote acceptian and lgbt wrights. So its been an important site of struggle. We think about our schools, the media popular culture, law, politics. 50 years after the rye another which moved into early july, what does the rainbow flag, which is behind you represent to you has a historic . Historian . The rainbow flag emerged as one of the sim also of the movement. The many colors was meant to celebrate the diversity of the lgbt movement and community, so to emphasize its not an allwhite community, its not all middle class, its not all men, but it encompasses people from all backgrounds, all social groups in the global community. There have been calls to expand the colors on the rainbow flag to even further emphasize the diversity of the Lgbt Communitys movements, activism. Tony in denver, welcome. Caller dr. Stein, a brilliant presentation on it. I found this highly informative. Two questions for you. One, how large is the Lgbtq Community . How large is the demographic . Second, as a historian, are you concerned im concerned as a white male about injustice for anyone who is not white over the last couple years. Im wondering if you have a view, are we going backwards as a society . Not just for lgbtq, but just in general in terms of Justice Movements . I would like answers to those two. Thanks for the call, tony. Mr. Stein . Quantification is very difficult. We have lots of surveys stretching back to the kinsey studies in the 1940s and a50s. If the question is asked narrowly, we tent to get reports of 1 to 3 to 5 to 10 of the population. If the question is asked more broadly, we tend to have more. The term queer has been evoked to have a much broader array of people. Anyone who has ever transgressed gender in aspects of their lives we start to get much more we we might say 100 is potential queer, though they dont claim that he. So its how we define those letters of the alphabet. With respect to the current moment and whether were making progress, taking a step back, in many respects they things tend to happen in cycles. There were important reforming during the obama administration, and as weve seen in the areas, a retrenchment and reaction during the trump administration. There of course have been limits to that, because we have three branches of the federal government. We have state and local governments, some of which are continuing to make important strides. So its complicated. Sometimes we have two steps forward, one step back, sometimes one step forward, two steps back. It really depends on the question were asking. In certain aspects, theres been progress. In others, theres been a retrenchment. We go back to your first question, the notion that we each have to claim strict identities, and avoid dealing with the complexities of gender and sexual fluidity. Maybe were not at such a great moment right now. I have seen more and more insistence that people claim strict identities and dont embrace possible transformation, possible fluidity of gender and sexuality across our own lives, of course and across history. This headline from the new york city daily news. It reads hohomo nest raided, queen bees are stinging mad. It was characteristic of some of the mainstream coverage. Because of my book offers basically 30 accounts from that summer, we get to see we get to compare the coverages. And west coast periodicals like the berkeley barb and tribe, and then you would not have seen a headline like that in newsletters of the day, but you know, this was a day for mainstream newspapers to get readers, to get interest. It can then be compliment complicated to use them as sources, but they sources. Just even the National Magazines of the day, time and newsweek didnt cover it until the fall, october. It took several months before at least the magazines of the United States to see stonewall as something significant. You spoke about the importance of the bars and taverns, nancy younger is a professor at santa clara university, and from the cspan library looking back at the role they played for the Lgbtq Community. Gays and lesbians who became of age in the 40s, 50s and 60s speak over and over and over again how they risked their reputations, their marriages, their families, their are their livelihoods by going to gay bars, because the gay bars saved their lives. They kept them from desparing that they were the only ones. Kept them from believes that society was right, that they were stick and criminal and would be better off dead. In the bars and night clubs they found hookups, one night stands. They also found partners and lovers and friends and people who accepted them as they were. They didnt have to carry out the exhausting work of pretending to be straight. They could be themselves, and being true to yourself is very precious, and worth a lot of risk. Lesbians during this period suffered double discrimination, even most gay men saw women as inferior. The lesbian bar was the truly rare place where women were not pressured to cater to men. A less by yang in the 1940s said we could throw out of our girdles, our dresses, our high heels, which that was the uniform virtually required of all women. Lesbians could wear pants, be free from straight mens unwanted sexual attention. The. I want to move beyond the riots, and ask you, marc stein, what happened next after the Stonewall Inn demonstrations . Well, initially the existing Gay Rights Organization in new york city, the society, tried to harness the energy, and there were followup protests and demonstrations in Greenwich Village, andactual will you in queens, new york, at a public park that had been the sight of harassmentvigilantes. So there emerged new organizations. The first one in new york was the Gay Liberation front. There was also the queens liberation front. A little while later radical let lesbians formed. Then the Gay Activist Alliance in new york, which was a little less radical that the Gay Liberation front. The other organizations i mentioned were very committed to alliances with the black panthers, with the antiwar movement, with womens liberation, and they participated in marches and demonstrations of those other groups, and they really were calling for rad cat restructuring of American Society. A sexual restructuring, social restructuring, political restructuring. The Gay Activist Alliance in contrast decided to focus more exclusive on gay rights. That really then set the trend for what followed for the next several years. Very influential, very powerful, very active organization in new york and similar organizations around the country. Let mu ask you about two more recent moments in edie windsor, and her challenge of doma. Why was her case so significant . Well, over time the issues and priorities changed. They began prioritizing include in military, family life, religion, and that was contested in the movement. Many thought that the radicals were antiwar, they didnt want inclusion in the military. Were opposed to monogamy and conventional family life. So theres that tension. Nevertheless for many people the goal was broad acceptance, equality in all aspects of american life, and edie windsor and the struggle for samesex marriage was that aspect of the movement. Her role, and others, were absolutely essential in achieves this measure of the longstanding goal, which was for those people who want to marry, that they have the legal right to do so. In 2016, during a march, rangers, those from the National Park service joining in the gay pride movement. What does that tell but where police and authorities were in 69 and where we are today . Again, i think theres conflicting feelings. On the one hand, it represents acceptance and inclusion. Its a far cry from the situation 50 years ago. On the other hand, have those levels of government, local, state and federal, fully acknowledged the longstanding acts of harassment, abuse and violence, committed in the name of local, state and federal governments . Are they completely addressing todays cuttingedge issues . Theres that doubleedged aspect of participation of local, state officials. Including represent tiffs of the nation National Parks service. In half a minute, the cover of your book represents what, in your mind . Why did you select it . Well, its a photograph from the week of the stonewall riots by fred mcdara. Its a staged photograph. As i mentioned earlier, we really only have one image. We dont even have the original. Most versions that people will say, its a grainy image of a newspaper photograph, but the fred mcdara photographs were staged, mostly taken the even of june 28th, so the second night of rioting. These were a group of participants who he gathered, staged on a staircase on this very street, and they represent i think the diversity of the participation. We see people who at least look to us to be africanamerican, puerto ricans, we see trans people, we see the Youthful Energy of the participants. We see camping, samesex affection and intimacy in the series of his photographs, so in some respects it captures some of what was going on during the week of the writing. Author, historian, marc stein, joining us from christopher street. Thank you very much for being with us. Thank you very much for having me. First ladies, on American History tv examines the private lives and public roles of the nations first ladies, through interviews with top historics. Tonight we look at the first two first ladies, Martha Washington and abigail adams. Watch first ladies, influence and image tonight at 8 00 p. M. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online, or listen on our free radio app. Be part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feeds. Cspan created by americas cable companies, and brought to you by your provider. Each week we take viewers into history sites around the country. Up next we visit the rise up exhibit here in washington, d. C. To learn about the 1969 stonewall riots and as they served as a catholics for the modern