Forces, National Guard, and h ia other Law Enforcement units gathering strength here in the i Nations Capital . Gathering strength. Ington, thats a good way to put it. You know, its extraordinary. For a lot of usforces who a liv watched it for a long time, were used to seeing Security Forces and motorcadesci and sect service and even some military, but ive never driven through the city for block after block, the traffic is stopped and andd cordoned off by, you know, military humvees in camouflage s or des browerdesertbrown tan p and itsrace striking and its revealed a new set of questions not just about trump, but about the race question and about the protest, but about the use of the militaryrypo and the really unique betwe relationship betwe military and thetroops civilian politicians who control pem and the difference between, for edel example, activeduty troops versus National Guard troops, ug versus all the police and federal Law Enforcement who are on the groundt you know, line them all up t. Against protesters, they dont all have the same set of rules. They dont have the same sort of training or mindset. Ht war you know, being a Police Officer in the community isutiv ae lot different than being a soldier trained to go fight wars. You are the executive editor of the online publication defense 1. Licy. You obviously your organization covers the military, covers the pentagon and u. S. Defense policy. Sident how early did you and your t reporters get a sense that it was going in this direction in terms of the actions that President Trump would take . Well, i think just like everybody else, you listen to what trump would sayed i andnt e would tweet. The you could tell he was getting frustrated when protests became violent and turned into looting. And the way he kept begging the governors or, you know, yelling at the governors to get their National Guards out, to get more forces out, and then threatening to federalize the National Guard and to send u. S. Placestroops, was like kind of the final step, the one that, you know, we only saw in places like little rock and on the steps of university of alabama in the 1960s, where but that was in a different set of circumstances, you know. Tion, to in the 60s, troops were used ak often to either enforce integration, to provide, you know, greater freedoms and viol equalityen to black americans. N. And in this case or also to e stop violent protests like after the 1968 conventions. E you of tknow, this time is a li different. Tell us a little bit about the background of the use of th . Insurgent act. This is this 1807 act, as i understand. What power does it provide the president , and when was the last time a president used it in the United States . Well, its supposed to be the kind of escape positive from the posse kamikaze sacks. At is wh traditionally, the United States military is not allowed to be li deployed domestically on u. S. Ground, especially to perform Law Enforcement duties. Thats, you know, what separates us from living in a kingdom. The king cant send his troops to quell his subjects. So, thats where you have that. Lull. Instead, states have National Guard. A lot of people may not know coe this, but were saying, the cas state governors control their National Guard, who you see when the hurricanes or natural ke con disasters come, sometr cases li this. The president can invoke this insurrection act to help with two things. He can take control of the state National Guards or he can send t federal u. S. Troops, active duty army, navy, air force, marines, into the United States to been perform Law Enforcement duties, difference, bigr wi th right . Aw. So, right now, for enfoexample,. U. S. Military has been deployedc to thean border with mexico on u. S. Soil, but theyre not performing Law Enforcement duties. They cant stop someone and e arrest them. They can proceed logistical help in the background, isr to d intelligence through surveillance from theo. St sky, its it seems ticky tack, but it really is a legal question of what youre allowed to do. D we just read a report a few minutes ago that florida a Governor Ron Desantis is sending 500 troops to d. Krcc. And what other states have asked for this and d. C. Already has National Guard. We h why would additional be needed . Just that the president wants more. He called for thousands and note thousands, and frankly, we havent been able to ascertain from the pentagon or white house or anyone else in government exactly how many troops have come to the city. Th they wont reveal er but let me tell you that its a lot. I dont know that its thousands and thousands, but theres a lot in the city. Thet d. C. Is unique. E. Im pretty sure to get it right to say, d. C. s mayor cant make the decision of whether or not to allow the guard coming in. Thats when the federal the u. S. Armys National Capital region is in control of the district because its this unique spot. Its not a state in its own. Which is why you see the d. C. Il mayor actually b tweeting out, u know, statehood, a longtime an n political battle for the cities of washington, taking advantage of the situation of statehood. Thats why we need statehood, so others cant send their people here. Theres been a battle with the t guard, so originally, mark esper asked governors from virginia and maryland and pennsylvania and new york to send National Guard, and they said no. One they declined. No coincidence, theyre a spec democratic governors. They found other states who were willing to send them. So, last night, one of the th biggest groups we saw was from utah, a special operations unitd they look like they might be un active duty. Theyve got a lot ofer point acy patches, but theyre not. Theyre from a National Guard unit, which is another point i think worth saying. To people on thehe street, most americans dont know the difference of the National Guardsmen and an activeduty soldier when you look at them on the street. Its not that simple. Host not that it matters to them. Its still troops on a city street, and thats a pretty shocking sight. Have some governors turned down the request from the white house . Yes. As i said, thats what was virginia and maryland, the request from the whouite house . Yes, thats what i said. The democratic governors. The executive editor with defense one, and were talking about the insurgent act 202488001 for democrats. The wo well get to markrk esper in a moment. The headline of your piece sayse trump finally gets the war he wanted. He theres the defense secretary and the chairman of the joint chiefs. What did you mean finally this f getting the war he want snd. The division in the united qr states . Our beatat anddoes h the nation defense beat weve been tracking for a long time. Does trump really want to pull out of afghanistan and iraq or does he want Something Different . Because he says he dead but deployed more troops. Places like syria, north korea, iran. Hes the kind ofps politician a leader this is a different td thing. To s this is the division that i think even jim mattis was talking about in his eft an extraordinary comment last night to say this president lives off of stoking division. He loves he loves to poke the media. He loves to fire up his base with, you know, just the extrem partisan views and comments. He he has sds directly i think leslie stall on 60 minutes he knows exactly what hes doing. So thisis kind of division he think is good for his politics,h good for hise reelection chancs and i assume he thinks its good for america, too. Thats what he wants. Here you know, everything that the far right is calling for. Guard c in addition to d. C. We kno and minnesota where else is the National Guard been called up . You said minnesota. Weve seen them out los angeles. I saw a decent group there. I believe miami. Im not exactly sure. Ive really been focused mostly on washington. Let me play you the commentst of the defense secretary yesterday at his briefing, and you may have been there and heard this, but i want to play it for you and get your thoughts on what mark esper had to say. Take a listen. At times, however, the United Statess military is asked in support of governors and law w enforcement to helpp maintain lw and order so that other americans can exercise their right free from violence against themselves or their property. That is whateek to thousands of guardsman are doing today in cities across america. E utmost it is not something we seek to do, but it is our duty. Th and weat mon do it with the utm skill and professionalism. I was reminded of that monday as i vizzed our National Guardsmen who were on duty monday night e protecting our most aloed grounds and monuments. Im very proud of the men and nf women ofar the National Guard w are out on the streets today als performing this important task and in many ways at the risk ofo their ownr welfare. Ive always believed and continue to believe that the ao National Guard is best suited p for performingto domestic suppo to civil authorities in these situations. In support of local Law Enforcement. I say this not only as secretary of defense but also as a formere soldier and ant former member ol the nationalas guard. The option to use active duty rt force in a Law Enforcement role should only be used as a last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. Te we are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the oe insurrectionon act. News reports indicate hat th. President was not too happy wita those comments by his different secretary. Yeah, that was quite extraordinary. We in the press corp were waiting for esper to come out and make comments himself specifically about his turne appearance in thatd photoop opportunity and clearing the s. Park monday night and showing up there. And instead he kind of turned it into he did a little bit of spin. He came out saying we in the is military came out in support of the constitution and he just repe repeated it. Tution to me thats him. Is th toe th states saying were not the army of President Trump, were the n army of thewh constitution, andt this is the rule of law at which lots of military commanders to , have served under trump to say. You may not like asking what trump but its the law. Until its illegal or immoral theyre not going to do it. And the moral question can be debated but thats their stancea ordi finish. Go ahead. Y the second part on race i think its extraordinary that he also said yesterday he had sent a memo out to the force, you know, calming like a lot of us have seen from our leaders and r the workplace, for example. This is time of unity, the thi country needs to come together,n racism isar real, systemic raci is real. R these are things its extraordinary that the commanders in the military felt that must be said. We have theres no other sighting. Theres no all lives matter. This is we have to do better by our Black Brothers and sisters in americacr especially the unid states military. But hes been catching a little criticism for waiting so long. Ne after a good 48 hours secretary of defense put out a statement, we saw some statements from likl the fleet commanders from europe and africa. So theres a lot of calming and support and calls for unity. Utio much morens focused on securitye than on civ unity and, you know finding solutions to all these civil problems being protested. 4 we want to8 remind our views and listeners we set aside a line for those of you active duty military, 2024880003. Saying in part in that piece generals must follow lawful mp n orders such as helping to enforce curfews to preventing lawful protests from turning violent. If trump can enlist or appear to enlist the military in his scorched Earth Campaign against his enemies then he threatens ts undercut more than the military it was reputation with his Conspiracy Theory claims the election is already rigged against him and democrats worried hell try to steal it from them. Ank yo trump threatens to undermine american democracy. Marvins retired military in chattanooga. Thanks for being with us. As a retired military person im a vietnam veteran from the most decorated Company Clerk from the total vietnam war. Home may 25th is marvin day in tennessee, thats me. And when i came home in 1969 an. Saw in 1970 as a College Student the United States government shooting at their own people and killing their own white children and i said to my god if theyll do this to their own white people what will they do to another race . Stat all these things turned around has been totally monitored by the president of the United States during these periods. L w. And in this particular period this particular president of the United States is leading us to o civil war. I would like to ask him in his dispersement of troops into the black neighborhoods, what u happens inre the State Capitol michigan, lancing, michigan, ah when youror armed citizens stoo in the face of their of authority. Marvin, thanks for being with us this morning. Kevin, any thoughts . First, sir, thank you for calling in. Its an honor to hear from you. Its a good story. This is frequent complaint ive seen. Clearly armed protesters who were white stood atot show the capitol. The president said, oh, i they got a great right to protest yot should listen tohe them, and th police didnt show up in riot gear ready for a confrontation. They lookedprot in normal unifo. This looks different. Frankly i think its a little t bit of apples and oranges because that protest they may have been armed but there wasnt citywide and nationwide looting and fires which unfortunately ie what happened this time around. And initially the Police Response was, you know, to thatn violence. I think whats changed in thehe hi last fewng days especially in Tr Washington and new york and s. Other places were seeing Security Services like police and the guard who are pushing rd out peaceful protesters. E now, were 6, 7 days into it. Theyre worried those protests are all going to explode once nightfall comes into violence because thats what kept betwe happening in some cities including washington. And, you know, theres a difference between theres also a difference between the statehouse in lancing and the white house. Security around the white house is like no other, and frankly some of us were surprised they allowed suchkind of a large ga of protesters at Lafayette Park even on the weekend even thoughl its kindev of a location of traditional protest yugoslavia. See itt all the time there, buth binot at that level and not after days and days of violence in other cities. If you assume theres going to be violence why let them be there, boy did trump take the ball and run with it with such large presence. I think this is pendulum. Frankly, things are different this week. All right, heres ed in lawrenceville, georgia. Ea good rd amorning. Nd good morning. I know you think youre at the , prime of your life with your black beard and everything but i find you to be a little delusional, some of the things you write, some of the things you say. First of all, id like you to know i know this is not goini to get through to you, but we aree a republic. Were not a democracy. I hope you could look that up. The thing i wanted to tell you was your portrayal of President Trump and this whole deal is so twisted because i dont think youre realizing were facing people that are using explosives. Theyre hitting Police Officersk on the. Head with heavy fire extinguishers. Theyre stabbing police in the neck. These are our families, okay, w mr. E smily. Our gue you know you think you know everything but you dont know whats going on. And ill let you go there and get a response from our guest. Appreciate the call. You know, i think theres a lot of frustration like the caller has in just what hes saying. When violence broke out, you know, initially i think people go to their camps and the conspiracies come out. And you heard a whole lot of people on the left going its got to being white extremists. Its just like those armed protesters before stoking all this. And people on the right said its got to be antifa, those left guys. The Intelligence Services come out and sayay no, actually ther were antifa here. E. In a short few days wee started to see video of yeah there are some anarchist left wing folks k causing btrouble, white peopleb causing trouble, masks on inserting themselves into the middle of black crowds and making it look bad and its become a big, giant mess. Absolutely theres been a call a for muchve b larger Security Services especially in minnesota at the beginning of this that hr theyst shouldnt have been allod to do mat that. This is s in my own city in washington y e saturday night was thecu first g night of violence and we all ec felt the exact same thing. This is a sate of security everywhere. Parkernmen police, secret serviy justice, fbi. Look up governorexecutive. Com. They had ath good piece about h many federal Law Enforcement in the city. D start but that first night they werent there. E. Just a few blocks from the whity house the from looters just hadt walkhe over and start smashing windows and spray painting. And theyve been tagging the city from georgetown all the waa east to the Convention Center and beyond. Civ and iil reported that. For example, theres a circle called Thomas Circle named after a civil war general whos from the south from virginia, went to west point, fought for south thn and led black soldiers against the confederacy. Hes a hero of blackck freedom in the south, at least he should be, but hes just one more general on a statue in washington. I didnt even know what statue that was until i looked it up, but the ironny is there. E wind i fully appreciate the call by a lot of americans to stop the ho, violence. Nobody wants to see windows get smashed orsu things get burned people getting shot especially the Law Enforcement officers wh arewhere supposed to be protec us. I think, fortunately, were ofc seeing a changeer the last coup of days where the protests are becoming more thpeaceful, a lot moree officers are reaching across the line to them. Were seeing hub hugs and hopefully thats the trend we continue seeing. This is bob, retired he use military. Glad to have you with us. Caller thank you. I thought it was my understanding that the president called for the use of troops to, stop rioting not vandalism but not to control or stop peacefult protesters which is what the ti times article said. It made it sound like he was using the military to stop peacef peaceful protesting. I dont think thats the idea. Tion i think youreal g right, but thats not what happened. It started with the monday night clearing of Lafayette Park in front of the white house. National guard were part of that. At first we werent sure but e t its been oconfirm. Its not like the troops that the president wants and stayed separate from the rest of the force they were all called in together. Its a little bit later in the week of the protests but thats not what we saw earlier but theres definitely been a lot of commingling. Youre right, a lotsupp of the president s statements say we support peaceful proat thes buti were not going to stand for violence and destruction. Hurch n i think the difficulty is that a lot of those things happen in the same place. Street take for example st. Johns church on monday night, the evening before peaceful ones w protesters are in the park, theres a street and then theres a church. And that whole same groupway of people were the ones lighting fires one block away pushing lit garbage cans and dumpsters into the street at the Security Services, the police and the guard mixed in. They were spray painting the church all over the place and every other building nearby, breaking windows. Ll so how doing you distinguish between quelling the violence or dispersing the people altogether even the peaceful protest ones when it all just explodes in th same place . The news report i heard from the mayors News Conference yesterday, mayor bowsers News Conference d. C. Police tuesday night did arrest some 200 i think looters that they encountered. Lincolnton, north carolina, republican line. Good morning. Youre on with kevin baron. The caller hey, first of all i going to say im for law and order because thats what this program is about. I dont think like whats going in new york and thestop governo and theyre letting everything happen. So i think you do have to call s in help andaid ab i think it sh have been stopped by now. Ice. Butt i wanted to ask you too somebody had said about a Justice System and they wanted quick justice. Ian and my thing i want to bring up is the quick justice for trump,. The three years of lies, russian hoax, mueller, the th investigation. E look at how long its taken. A white man, our president of ui the United Statesll and look ho long its taking, and now maybe finally its going to come out and the truth will be heard. But wheres the protests for that . If it was obama i want to know what kind of protests there svil would be. Le, would it last three years if itp was obama . And the last thing i want to say with charlottesville, im not sg forgetting when g trump said tha were good people in the crowd and the media went nuts. Now all of a sudden weve got good people in a bad crowd and r the media is like, oh, yeah, yeah, good people. So my thing is, you know, bring out the military. Bring out whoever you have to bring out and stop all this crap with the looting and breaking windows because its not about i floyd. G. That was a horrible thing and justice does take time, and this time it was quick justice and n still everything is happening. So i say end it, bring them in, do what you got to do and stop the windows, and whos going to pay for all that damage kevin baron. Yeah, thats a fascinating ty caller because theres somebody who, you know, right down the middle. Alking on the one hand shes calling for more Security Forces, athe h crack down which is what trump wanted earlier and had become point on the lkingway right and left while at the same time shes asking with how trump has been able to get away with just being trumpmp for three years, it never would have happened if its obalm mu. It sounds like shes angry at trump but supporting him in thir sense, and, you know, i think thats normal. Especially from a lot of republican supporters or even former military who have really tried to not which out against the president , let him be the cs president but. Just this week said enough is enough. Guys like mullein the chairman of thege joint chiefs, guys lik jim mattis who worked for trump who said generals shouldnt talk and get involved in something h like this and said enough and enough, i have to speak out. Wall people are speaking out. And people are calling for law and order. Is say the headline here on the wall street journal what you just made about jim mattis, fete former defense secretary jim ui mattis says, quote, trump tries to divide us. The headline, donald trump is the first person of my lifetime who does not try to unite the american people, a statement from the former defense secretary. S, kevin baron, the a question for. A text from peter in provincetown, massachusetts. He says aad milit recent shooti military bases is deemed as rod terrorist attack. Already had the military intelligence and Counter Terrorism units on very high g d alert prior to the current round of protests. How is this influencing current military planning and operations . Interesting question. More certainly the military like everyone else in the United States is more awaree of Mass Shootings and those kinds of incidents happening. How this is changing things, dont forget we were all in covid lockdown already including the military and so the military like everyone else was supposed to be quarantined or isolating and beinge troo safe and wearin masks. And its especially so in the military where troops neededto e at the ready for deployment. If your unit was going to get called to say afghanistan youve got to join your unit and do ov your 14 days of quarantine before youre allowed to go into the field of operations because they dont want to bring the e virus over andnd the same is tr in reverse. Now with domestic emergency and needing troop tuesday be called up quickly its just as the mi troubling when youdd see all the protesters mask or not masks, were in the midof a pandemic, same thing is true now in the Security Forces. theyre nowws shoulder to shoulder, called up together with each other as well. So i think thats one thing. This will effect and cause planners to check ratings of all the units who have been deployed into all these cities. This i longerterm it goes back to what i said earlier about these messages to the force about race. This is the second time in the Trump Administration thatan the joint chiefs felt they needed to weigh in on Domestic Social issues and send a message to the force. The other time c they did it wa charlottesville. E. The same exact thing, a raciallt charged white versus black, protest got out of hand. Milit but this time it has been, you know, a much deeper call. And i think we often say the military is just a reflection of society. Generals are writing be these s where theyre not taking a side saying all liveses matter and youve got to be hard on rievan security. Theyre saying we supportcece constitution, the right to protest, these are legitimate p grievance, theres a long history of racism in america it is systemic bututmi we need to better and change not just for civilians were protecting but for our own kind, for the military which are heavily e populated with minorities. So i think thats one way youll see change thats lasting in ta because of these events. I have a claudia, tallahassee, florida. E yes, i have a problem with the president equating people who vandalize buildings that probably have heavy insurance i and equating those people to the taliban and isis like sending in american troops to kill them, t quell them. Ign that is ridiculous. Rtance that is unamerican. How can you ignore the hijack importance ofed protests but quw that protest when its hijacked. By lootersrs and people who , any vandalize . Ill let you go there, tallahassee. Claudia, thank you for that. She kevin baron, any final thoughts . Yeah, on that i think shes right. And thats the frustration many have and thats the story frankly we journalists are and following. The difference between trump ordering troops and the white house and officials saying those troops and National Guard are there to protect the right to protest and to stop and protect any violence on property or elyt people. Its one thing to sayhaay night. Its another thing to see it. See and unfortunately that monday night event and others whenaftep those Security Services forcibl. Stopping demonstrations even, you know, after curfew, for example, and just marching righ through, well, you know, you got to walk the walk, talk the talkn it didnt match the rhetoric s g what theyre saying. Prote i think its changed a little bit. Last night i saw lots of images acrass the country again of set peaceful leprotests, people singing. I think it was in maybe seattle even lifted their curfew because the protests were so peaceful r they didnt want to disperse doi them. De thats a real change for the hig positive i think for everyone, and hopefully were on the downside, the backside of this whole thing andur was violence t really indecline. And our washington journal listeners andnd viewers can watch can follow continued coverage at defenseone. Com. We appreciate you being with us this morning. Thanks have having me on. I appreciate the time. Tonight on American History tv a look at the American Revolution beginning with park ranger and author on bostons role in the origins of the revolutionary war. Thats followed by a discussion of revolutionary war clothing and how american tailors impacted the era. Then the origins of the American Revolution. A number of historians offer their thoughts on how it started. Watch American History tv tonight and over the weekend on cspan 3. Up next, testimony from Veterans Affairs secretary robert wilke and how the cboe pandemic has affected the budget need for Veterans Affairs. He spoke with the Veterans Affairs committee
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