Transcripts For CSPAN3 World War I U.S. Railroad Operations 20240713

Hello. Welcome, everyone, to your National World war i museum and memorial. Im Camille Kulig Program Specialist and thrilled to have everyone joining us here this afternoon. Whether you have braved the rain, congratulations. You made it. Or if youre warm at home watching through our live stream. Today we have the pleasure of hosting dr. Rudy daniels who is going to present his lecture, the Great Railroad war, United States Railroad Operations in world war i. Today we also have the pleasure of being joined by one of the museum and memorials esteemed board members. He is going to speak more about his ample experiences with railways in the midwest. And his connection to the museum and memorial. Without further ado, please help me in welcoming dave everick. Thank you very much. Yeah, im really pleasured to join you today. We have a great guest and dr. Rudy daniels who is going to join us. Ive been with the Railroad Industry for about 23 years now. I have quite an experience with the military, too. I went to west point in 88 and was out in the military for nine years as an attack helicopter commander. And then joined csx railroad. I was there five years and then came to Kansas City Southern where i was there for 14 years and was able to make it up to the rank of chief operating officer there. And so i had a wide variety of experiences both in the u. S. , midwest, and in mexico. And then for the last five years, ive been working with genosy railroad. Im out helping the railway. One thing that a lot of people dont take into their thought process is that railroads have been around for 150 years. Rudy and i were just talking about the Union Pacific driving the golden spike celebrating 150 years. And when you think about how long the railroads have been around and really how the u. S. Has grown up around the railroads and how Much Technology has come so far, the railroads have not changed very dramatically. Sure we went from the steam engines to the steel locomotives. It is still the most efficient way to move freight thats out there. I think the latest stat with the current freight operations is that we can move one ton of freight on one gallon of gasoline of diesel for 500 miles. So you think about that. Its pretty impressive. And then you think about all the roles that the railroads have played in a lot of the wars. Even the civil war. You know, one of the major objectives was to get behind the lines and get to your enemys rail structure. They would heat up the rail and bend it around trees in the civil war. Just to make sure that they cannot resupply or get resources to the front lines easily. You know, i just look at those things in the United States and the Development Even every town west of the mississippi river, every major city you see primarily used to be a rail hub. And then it built up around that rail hub. But the development of a lot of our history revolves around the railroads. And what youre going to hear about today is something you dont usually hear about. The role of the rails in world war i. It really had a dramatic impact. But you just dont see a lot about it out there. And really looking forward to dr. Samuels talk today. Let me give you a little bio on daniels, im sorry. He received his phd in russian and soviet studies from the Pennsylvania State university. And since then taught a college and universities, United States and germany. He has written numerous articles and books including trains across the continent, complete history of the u. S. And canadian railroads. And the Great Railroad war which can be purchased in the store that we have here. Most recently, dr. Daniels was a contributing editor to the Railway Atlas of the United States and currently gives talks on a variety of aspects of railroad history. Please help me in welcoming dr. Rudy daniels. Thank you very much. First of all, its an honor to be here this afternoon at the National World war i museum here in kansas city. A great honor to be invited and to do this presentation. And as far as world war i, the railroads of world war i, as a historian, i have written several other books on various subjects, but i feel its almost a privilege. Now it is a privilege to have written this story, to bring it to light. And basically to quote the french army during world war i, he said this is a railroad war. Quite simply this. You need a train to get the young men and women to ports to lead the United States, of course, ships overseas and trains again to get everything to the front. So railroads played not just a critical but a vital part in the american victory and the victory of world war i. I want to start off with a couple of slides here. This first one is all controversial. You see the soldiers this is the cs from the chesapeake and Ohio Historical society. They said well, they have soldiers embarking for europe. And i kind of think this is in virginia because of the bridge. Ive been there. Today Csx Transportation and someone said well, no, the soldiers are arriving from europe after the war. The Historical Society said these are soldiers leaving for war. The reason for is it is they had overseas hats. The overseas hats were issued during the war because the standard hat they had originally took too much room. So if anyone here has an idea and a source that can help me with that, i would be more than happy to hear what you have to say. This is scene that happened all over the country. The American Red Cross set up volunteers mostly women, sometimes children. And they would at these station stops, they would bring refreshments. It would be sandwiches and coffee in winter. Watermelon, ice cream, so forth in the summer. You know, seasonal and what not. The red cross operated almost 700 of these canteens during world war i. And, of course, canteens would be operated during world war ii also. But this is kind of like the beginnings of it. During world war i, the troops were segregated. Here you have africanamerican soldiers also to show the red cross is serving them. With refreshments at various station stops. This photo was courtesy of the red cross. They did not know where this station or depots was. Here again, this supposedly is washington, d. C. Here you have, again, volunteer women, red cross women being bringing refreshments to troops on the train in major metropolitan area. This is really controversial. This is a field kitchen on a flat car. The Pulling Company offered to build for the United States during world war i kitchen cars that could serve, they claim, up to 400 soldiers an hour on a train. The army said, no, no, no, were not going to bite cars. Well just use flat cars and well just use baggage cars. Didnt work. The men were actually eating rations, their rations on the train. They just couldnt feed them. The soldiers life in world war i, im sure you see throughout the museum is very, very difficult to say the least. Notice here about how the United States did not want to give into the war. But once you got into december 1916 into january 1917, the mood of the nation changed. A large part of it in during the war is due to a man by the name of george kreel who had a campaign in movie theaters in particular to bolster people for the war. As soldiers and draftees and National Guard were offer to off to their camps for training, these are scenes from nebraska, a small town west of omaha. You see these scenes. These were popular in the metro areas. Here is another such scene. This is chicago and northwestern that served that town. You see the towns people, family, everybody getting together to send the soldiers off. They traveled in coaches and night travel. The Deployment Company rearranged some luxury sleepers at that time, sleeping cars, into more spartan conditions so there would be more room for the men to have their supply bring their supplies with them. And heres the other scene. You can see it clearly there. You see how people were anxious. Civilians putting luggage on the train. In the early years of the war first months of the year, soldiers could take baggage and everything with them. Some of them even took their pets. The army said no more, only taking standard issue along with them. Okay, during the United States Railroad Administration there were 12 types of locomotives. Well get into this a little bit more. They were standardized. The idea was to standardize them for efficiency and also to be able to move locomotives from one part of the country to another no matter what company had the label. Were going to see the government is eventually going lease or rent the railroads from their original owners. The u. S. And the original company that purchased the locomotive could keep its name at the top in small letters of the tender. This is the chesapeake in ohio locomotive with the railroad. So they could keep their own name there. A lot of the railroads didnt like this. They didnt want to purchase the locomotives. They were limited to two types, heavy and light. Lighter ones because a Railroad Company may have trestles or bridges that could not take the heavier weight. And the variance of weight was from 5,000 to 12,000 tons. They had to follow all these government specifications. That is how parts could be easily interchangeable. Beforehand, a Railroad Company would order locomotive to its own specifications for a particular need and the government said, no, you cant do that anymore. There were only three manufacturers. Baldwin, philadelphia, american locomotive and lima in ohio. What is this . Were looking at these. This is a Narrow Gauge Railroad we used in france. They were built by baldwin. Contracts were issued to other companies when defects of the locomotives became apparent. One of the big defects was there was a pipe that connected these two water tanks. The locomotives didnt have a tender. So they had water tanks. The water would slosh about. They had a pipe between the two of them and they would tip over very easily. And i kind of say tongue and cheek, interesting that the engineers were recruited because they were short. When the locomotive tipped over, you had to be able to jump quickly out of the cab. As someone that is 53 could get out of that cab a lot sooner than someone that is 62. Well look at this. The usa there does not mean the United States of america. It would be in this little bunker in the water here in the tanks. These were used primarily this 50 horsepower was used near the front because they didnt want the smoke and fire from the steam engines to be seen close to the front because that would indicate a buildup of everything. And everything had to be mofrd within 20 miles of front because everything near the trenches was contaminated. The ground was contaminated from gas, poise onlies from poisons from the artillery shells. Everything had to be brought in by train. When you got close, just a couple miles to the trenches, they would use these mechanicals. Until then, they used the gasoline mechanicals before that they would use the steam locomotives. This is one of the gasoline mechanicals. By the way, as far as hiding any Troop Movement or any movement to the front for the germans, it was impossible. These things made so much noise. You could hear them ten miles away. So i dont know whether it did much good. Although general pershing used some of these for a ruse for his victory. This is a smaller version. These were usa again, United States army. Smaller version could move one or two cars. They were used to switch cars at a regulating station which well look at a station where your standard gauge met the narrow gauge. Again, these were narrow gauge. Theres been a whole book written on the narrow gauge, particularly the men who operated them and in my book i have a chapter on how they were operated, the operations of them. This is a car used by officers to ride to the front. They tipped over easily. You push them down the track and they went. You can stop them with a break, with a brake, one direction only, one speed only. Thats it. There were two sizes they used. The lever here, thats what made it go. That was it. Go and neutral. This is the typical narrow gauge boxcar. They could only fill it up twothirds or three quarters because, again, they would tip over very easily. This he did not they would lay down the tracks very quickly and take them up quickly as front moved back and forth. Because the germans the same gauge track, by the way. And they used each others track as whenever possible. These were the wounded they were braced on the narrow gauge cars, flat cars. They were set up so. Those who were critically wounded were moved by ambulance. These were taken to a regulating station about 20 miles away to then be put on a standard gauge hospital car. These are from the national archives. Just to show you the railroad guns. Well see another one in a moment. You see the railroad gun. We used these gasoline mechanicals because we in the mountains, United States had its own lumber operation where it used narrow gauge to cut down trees and they were used for fence posts, for bunkers and so forth at the front. So this was critical. So the french said, okay, you can use the mountains. Start your own lumbering effort. Again, all done by the army. This photo kind of shows a lot of things. They were moved 20 or so miles from the front lines. Every woman was evacuated. Only military could be there. These are the knights of columbus. I got this photo from the knights of columbus. All the men, the knights of columbus, the ymca that was there, had to wear military uniforms and were subject to military law. Now this is a little tram that was smaller than the narrow gauge. Well look at this in a second. They would move artillery shells, food, other supplies in and around the trench area. The third trench area. The knights of columbus opened up these huts. They call them huts out of boxcars where the soldiers can go and get free donuts, coffee, anything for free. Here theyre tending to a wounded soldier. Hes not critically wounded. But hes placed on one of the trams. They even had a turn table at the front to show these cars to go around to be moved in different directions. So this is a third you railway tram that was used in the war. Here you can see the deceased that would be placed on these trams to be sent to the regulating station. Were going to see well talk about that in a moment, to be sent home. This is from russia. I got this from the National World war i museum here. This is a typical russian train, if you will. Old locomotives. Dated from the 1890s. People traveled mostly in what we would call freight cars. If you will, this was a train still under the control of the imperial side, imperial side, the emperor side and so forth. This gives you an idea. This is a five foot gauge railroad in siberia. And here are civilians exiting the trains. There was a great epidemic of typhus in russia. Some people mentioned more people died of typhus in russia than bullets. I dont know how you measure that. This is still under imperial control because of insignia on the train, people would come to the east for medical treatment or as much medical treatment as they could get. They were also fleeing the civil war which was beginning at that time in russian. This is not a railroad photo. But this is the United States flag in russia. The United States thats what by invitation. This is a regulating station. This is where the narrow gauge tracks meet the standard gauge tracks. And if you can look, there is a sailor there. Theres a sailor there. And who is this guy here . Walking. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Naval officers are there. This is where supplies were brought about a months worth of supplies at this regulating station. Thats what it was called. You see some of the supplies, lumber in the back and what not. And then they would by telephone call the regulating station. Please send supplies, whatever they needed, ammunition, water, food, whatever was needed at the trenches. And then they would dispatch for 20 miles on the narrow gauge. But this was the meeting place. Lets look a little bit closer here. Oh, there is that guy again hes inspecting the train and with the army. Whoops, there is a navy here to. If you look closely here it has u. S. Am on that car. This is about 450 miles from the coast. This usn favorites. A good discussion question. Here again the usn fact, sailors, army, look at this. The old train. These were as much units as we were going to see. There he is more closely. I think some of you know who this gentleman is. Yeah, yeah. There is the big gun. What bernard baroque, this is a guy whos going to solve the supply problem and organize the economy to successfully fight world war one. He is going to take a civilian, wilson is going to call him in to solve the logistical problems of supply. This is the car in which i really shouldnt have this photo but this is world war ii, where hitler had his car taken out of the museum in paris, brought to the same place that the armistice was signed during world war one and i have this here because later on they will have the car brought to germany and destroyed. This is a replica of the car in which the armistice was signed and im kind of proud of this. This is in what the museum of armistice in france and i took a chance. I hadnt used french in 40 years so i took a chance and i wrote to them, i sent them an email, and i asked in french if i could please purchase some photos of this car, a replica, to be used in presentations on world war one. I got a response within 12 hours and they gave me six photos saying any american who write us in french for the photos, you can have them for free. laughs so i got them. Well one of the reasons for our operations in russia was to check legion and these were the czech soldiers. Numbers were different about them probably 60,000 and this is why the United States got involved in russia, was to help evacuate these checks soldiers and thats because president wilson run the promise to creation of a country called czechoslovakia one. The upon the end of the war that this new country would be created. This czech region would be fighting for us, they were supposed to be brought to the french side of the war, to fight alongside the americans then have their own country. Of course the war ended by the time they got one cross pacific, cross United States and then go fight in france. Of course the war ended. The last of these troops by the way, president wilson met and they stood in review, the American Red Cross to care of world transportation and took care of all of the wounded of the soldiers. These are my maps. I designed at the maps. These were the principal routes used by the american United States army. They are later to become known as the transportation corps. We said up port cities here. We have soundless our, which is probably the largest worry. Would share with the british one. We would take these routes here. These are the principal routes. We used other routes but these are the principal routes that we used. Later we had the supply back in southern france. We completely rebuilt this line will. We completely rebuilt that line including putting up blot signals believe it or not. We will get to that. So United States was completely rebuilt, the French Railway network during world war one. Also to we built our own Telephone Exchange so we had our own Telephone Network from the front to paris and the port cities. This is where we operated trains in siberia. Man volunteered to work the trains and operate the trains all the way from and thats about 3500 miles. Greater than the distance across the United States. Then we sent the army there about 6000 of our troops, 2000 International Troops to keep the railway open because this was the supply line to the Eastern Front because after all, the turkey as a nation had blocked off the black sea. You could not use that route. So the two ports were just beginning as a port and was archangel here where the main other supplies but there was ice and other problems. United states was in russia at the invitation of the russians. We were invited there. This area here, the chinese eastern railway, it was built in the United States steal of the Union Pacific had his hand in that. Great northern had a lot of enterprises in eastern siberia. Its very similar to growing wheat in this part of the country, the climate in this eastern area and we had a whole number of enterprises in that area. So we were somewhat familiar. The chinese eastern was the original part of the transcript syrian railway during the russian japanese war in 1905. The russians built their railroad entirely on their own territory so they didnt have to go to manchuria. The japanese were constantly trying to colonize this area, get this area during the war and we saved them off from that. Okay, we are back to work wahoo and i guess really my part of the program is really the narrative and that is in organizing and logistics, it was left to the railroads to move the troops and it was due to george hodge is of the ohio railroad. I actually had a round robin use of coaches and pullmans to move men from their being drafted or volunteered to army camps for training and then move them to primarily camp merit in new jersey for overseas. It really worked out a really neat way on a 30 day notice to move the men around. He even develop the secrecy code when all the troops were called maine and the details would follow encode and that code, by the way, was used by the various Railroad Companies for years after the war because it was so efficient. Freight was another problem. Freight was bottlenecked like you would not believe. As a historian, this is what got me into world war one. Railroads move things from point a to point b, you hear that all the time. Point a to point b. What was the problem of moving things from point a to point b . The bottle neck stung so bad, particularly we are talking about the war going to the eastern seaboard to western europe and it got so bad that every freight yard between new york and pittsburgh, and new york and buffalo was congested. Nothing could move. And the railroads had volunteered at the beginning of the war, the railroads 600 executives met in washington, d. C. To place their entire support to the war effort. They could not get through these bottlenecks. Troops could move easily because the railroads are moving themselves, then we have to say what was the problem . One of the problems, a huge one, was that supplies were being moved to depots and warehouses that were not yet built. Supplies were sent to hospitals that were not yet built so simply, the army kept the supplies in boxcars, in freight cars and so forth. This proved another problem, but how did this all occur . Well by the end of december 1917, both the railroads and the United States government was talking about having the United States government take over and around the railroads, literally lease the railroads from what they call the class ones, the major Railroad Companies with trunk lines and thats what happened. It leads to railroads, they were able to take this to the fray cards will and get things moving because the army owned all the supplies. What was the problem, why did this occur . Its because each area of the army competed with the other in ordering supplies. Quartermaster, medical and engineering. They all actually competed in getting the supplies first. On top of that, the manufacturers were paid once the thing was loaded on the train, not received so manufacturers wanted to load stuff on trains and send them off as fast as possible, whether it was placed there or not. It took the army later into the spring of 1918 to coordinate all this ordering, so you dont have the separate order and you dont have this fiasco occur. It was finally bernard peru coup actually built and designed this system from mine, to farm, to the trenches in france. When the government leased the railroad, it found out Something Else and that is all the changes that came about. Incredible textbooks say the progressive area ended world war one but in the United States Railroad Administration, how about this . Government mandated equal pay for equal work for women and for African Americans that also regulated work processing, they recognize fully the labor unions so progressive islam continued within the United States Railroad Administration. Believe it or not, it was only later that the official legislation went through congress for this to occur and in their leases, the war ended before the government could lease all the railroads so there was still railroads without lease functioning in this way. Okay, we are solving the problem in the United States, the yanks are coming and the yanks are coming in by train and by boat and then by train again. The french promised that they would take care of all of the transportation in france but their demands for troops moved from just thousands to 1 million, then 2 million, then 4 million. The Railroad Network could not do it so the United States has sent over observers and then sent over our army to build and rebuild tracks in france. The initial orders stood for this, 980 locomotives, steam locomotives, that is conducted a shuns to eight zero if you know the code. These are locomotives with the largest steam locomotives that can make tighter curves on trent French Railroads and make also their platform clearances and so forth. They also requested over 9000 freight cars and this is going to grow. We are going to send more locomotives and more freight cars to france. How about this, the United States brought over 4400 miles of standard gauge rail. Over 10,000 switches, 25 1000 tons of copper wire, and 425,000 acres that we used for our supplies. Copper wire, we are going to build our own Telephone Network there. We completely revamped french operations, made them more efficient, we would run through trains, the french never ran through trains, it was station to station, take off an engine, put another engine on. We would run through trains to our regulation stations. We actually built locomotive shops to repair and build our steam locomotives. We built our own Storage Facilities and of course the regulating stations were operating troop trains, we operated hospital trains and freight trains. The one thing, one final ointment, as you know, our standard gauge is four foot eight and a half inches. The french standard gauge was four foot 11 16 inches. We could use our standard gauge on their rails as long as we went slowly through switches. We were trying to derail and switches. When we had hospital trains, we ordered them from england, they were smaller, our cars were larger and wanted smaller trains, so we ordered them from england, it was cheaper and they were made to the french standard so they can get through this which is. Also for the railroad, is this huge mark one, 14 inches, called caliber guns. These are from the battle class idaho mounted on a train. I do describe how this had to be actually cemented in the ground in how they try to turn this gun. What was great about it, it shot a 1400 pound artillery shell, 24 miles accurately. Accurately. General pushing want to discuss on because what he did, and general pershing himself put it in a letter that this gone was instrumental in winning the war for the United States because he aimed this come, not at the trenches, he aint aimed this gone at the supply storage area of the germans so they would be deprived of not just ammunition but water, food, everything going through the trenches. General pershing hoped to get them out of the trenches and on to open warfare and this gun is what did it. It was a specially designed on a special railroad parish that can only go five miles an hour. That was the train that you saw before that United States navy, because the navy operated that train. We used five of those guns and just something very funny, very quickly. The french was skeptical, they said what we got to test is gone and fire this thing. They fired one shot from it, the french said, take it immediately to the front. Right now immediately to the front its interesting how they spotted these things. So this was how the railroads played a critical role, not just in United States, but also operating in france. I want to mention and emphasize that this 60 centimeter Narrow Gauge Railroad was used by the austrians used by the germans. The reason for that is the inventor of it, so to speak, built this originally for farming so you can lay down the tracks quickly and put your crops and then take it to the nearest area. It was really used in agriculture but it was very easily used during world war one on both sides. You want to take up your track quickly because the other side could use it and thats what happened. In fact, after the armistice, our men marched into the area of france. We actually used the german narrow gauge and our locomotives to bring supplies to our men as a march forward and as the germans retreated. To look at the final report in france, the United States army built 1300 root miles of track. 1000 miles of railroad sidings. We brought over 1500 standard gauge locomotives. 25,000 freight cars were. What we brought over 600 miles of narrow gauge track, the track that they were using, french were using, was to light so we brought over our own tracks and so forth. 347 narrow gauge locomotives and that tilting or spilling we were correcting, we were getting new locomotives just before the war ended and 125,000 miles of wire that we used for communication. The remaining time in russia, the whole point was to evacuate that czech legion but the french and english, particularly winston churchill, wanted to use our troops to destroy the revolution which was occurring in revolution at that time. Wilson, president wilson did not want and gates trick orders that the United States army, that he sent to siberia was, not to involve itself in politics or start a civil war because they wanted to use it to destroy what the bolsheviks. We operated, we actually sent volunteers, most of them at the locomotive company. We set up 14 stations along that travel from vladivostok two unce. 14 stations where our men acted as train masters, yard masters and helped repair the trains, get them on their way. We did what we could to modernize the trans hyperion rail ray in the timeframe and sent our soldiers over there to make sure the various peoples did not destroy the train operation or interfere with the train operation in siberia. They did so very well. Unfortunately, they got caught up in the civil war particularly with bolsheviks and their supporters and shooting at them, literally. Also the japanese had soldiers in that area at the time and there was a lot of conflicts between the japanese and the United States because the japanese wanted to call unce their area. United states having a presence, there prevented that canonization from occurring. That is extremely important because if the japanese were successful in calling unce colonizing the area. Can you imagine the Food Supplies they would have to engage upon their expansion during world war ii . They wouldve just had an incredible source of food and supplies. Our men again got caught up in the civil war and they did help evacuate the czech region. The reason for archangel was to evacuate the 60,000 or so, anywhere from 40 to 60,000 troops, they thought more quickly and later archangel to bring them to france. The czechoslovakia and leaders, these troops were scattered along the railroad path, sometimes hundreds of miles and claims of 1000 miles. Therefore we are not able to evacuate them successfully. Also by that time, bolsheviks started shooting at our troops and this kind of really puzzled us. Here they are trying to help evacuate and try to help russia win to war and here they are shooting at us so they never got from the st. Petersburg, they never got from archangel want to make contact with the trans ovarian railroad. They were neighbor able to get all the way. The only way they could be evacuated was along that long route of the trans siberian railroad. So we were successfully doing so, many of the lesions who could make it to vladivostok, once evacuated, we kept troops there until the final evacuation. The sad part is that it took them until the 1960s and due to court order, that our soldiers serving in our United States army in russia dropped the veteran status. It took them that long by court order. The United States government was unwilling to recognize the as veterans. The last part of this is what the war over what to do with the railroads. Changes had been made and everyone recognize you couldnt go back to the old ways of doing things so there was literally a freeforall discussion. Many groups from the labor unions to the chambers of conch mers to stockbrokers, every one of those including the head of the United States Railroad Administration all had suggestions in what to do, what not to do. Congress held hearings on this and finally in the end, what they did was put together what is called the transportation act 1920. President wilson made it known to things on several occasions. One, he did not want the government to take over the railroads. That was one plan but he did not want that. He was very clear, government was not to take over the railroads or continue to take over the railroads. The second thing that he made very, very clear was that the railroads were be given back to their owners and he wanted them he wanted this thing to be done by the end of this administration so there for one of the final acts of the Wilson Administration was to return the railroads to their rightful owners. This begins an incredible political fiasco because the United States Railroad Administration around the railroads without much regard to maintenance and without much regard to improvements unless it can be pinpointed directly for military reason. Therefore, the railroads were handed back to their owners and quite a bit of disrepair and indeed the owners had to, if you will, bring the railroads back into some kind of working, better working condition to the expectations of the civilian population. Now, what they did in the transportation act in 1920 was incredible. What they did was, this was popular at the time, they made the railroads on National Public utility. They were privately owned, but heavily regulated and if you look at the history of the time, this was a time when privately owned electrical companies, privately owned gas works, remember you had to make coal, you make gas from cold at that time. Other Public Utilities were coming under either city or state scrutiny of regulatory legislation and thats what congress did to the interstate Commerce Commission, that heavily gray regulated the railroads and try to get them functioning as a national system. They just about did. Given the private ownership, but they created an idea of competition, they wanted this competition to still remain alive even though the republican utilities, i call the Public Utilities, they want to the competition to be alive for improvements and there are many improvements then that remain in the Railroad Industry, passenger and freight services, in the 1920s and changes made in the 1930s. This is the age of the great streamline earth. The age of the broadway limited. The age of the famous city trains of Union Pacific. The southern bells, since we have some Kansas City Southerners here. We have the great trains that has bolstered in luxury and services and speed throughout the nation. This came out of the government leasing of the railroads during world war ii, world war one that would lead to world war ii and that is, what occurred and world war one was the meeting of each problem, meeting of each crisis just about on a trial era error basis. Never had the world seen a conflict so immense, so greedy for material and men. You know this, and world war one, i mean nothing comes close to it. Think about the United States having to move men and material across the atlantic. Hanoi will didnt have to do that with his soldiers, neither did alexander the great when he went to india. They were able to live off the land. Our men could never live off the land. We had to supply everything. It was the most incredible, logistic effort up to its time in world history. It did Something Else, the trial and error, the problems that occurred in world war one is building in france gave United States the blueprint when world war ii occurred. We didnt have to take over the railroads, the railroads knew how to move the supplies. We knew not to purchase supplies until the need was there or the men and the depots and the hospitals and so forth. We learned to coordinate so world war i, as paris prepares for world war ii, even though it was the war attend all warts. I would like to conclude this portion with this thought, indeed the men and supplies were by train, from home to camp, from one camp to another camp the or to their embarkation overseas. When they got to france, they wrote by train to the front, to, the regulating station and them from their narrow gauge to the trenches and they were supplied by the royal charm way that went through the trench area. Indeed, and world war i for the United States victory rode the rails. Thank you. applause and ask a question if you are unable, im happy to come to you. By the way, this is my favorite part of the program. I hope i can answer your questions. Thank you. I was working at a thesis on some 19th century rail subjects and i noticed you mentioned at the beginning of the war, in world war one, United States had a major backup of freight and at one point obviously they seized patrol the railroads, took them under control with them to kind of work out the problems they had and a trial an era basis for their experience in world war one. Im wondering, and this is my question to you, was it the lessons from the civil war and what mcallen and the United States military railroad, all of that knowledge and experience they documented that point, was not forgotten by the u. S. Government at the time world war i . Thats a good question. Actually, it was not forgotten because obviously when swore was a major area study. By the way, that was the point of world war one, as it was raging, it was not. The idea for and the military railroad melt world war i was a train, it was not a railroad. They used other railroads and simply ran out of railroads. They were not a Railroad Company. They were a train. Specifically, not those ideas were applicable during world war one. First of all, you ahead youre volume, i mean just the incredible volume and moving to one place on the east coast, really to places, newport news in new york. Other than the idea of Rapid Movement of troops by train, that the Lessons Learned during the civil war were really not applicable in this situation. That statement was actually made by the Railroad Companies and the army when they embarked on this. One thing i didnt have a chance, since you mentioned that, one of the problems was in the late, you said youre interested in the 19th century . 19th century, yes. In the 19th century, the government had placed a number of regulations on the railroad including the creation of the interstate Commerce Commission and a whole series of acts. During world war one, the railroads went to the attorney general, his name was Thomas Gregory and said to him, release us from these regulations so we can move our trains more efficiently. We can pool, a lot of regulations were against pulling in the 19th century against pooling and. I am not going to release you and we are going to enforce these laws. Its kind of a myth number. The railroad itself went to the government for the government to take over the railroads. It just so happens that, the secretary of treasury, he was a railroad person to begin with when the Hudson Railroad, the old Hudson Railroad led to tunnels and whatnot. He said that we are already talking about this so its kind of like a marriage. The idea was circulating for a couple of weeks, a month and finally brought together and so the railroads found that when the government was releasing the trunk lines, they were relieved. They were actually relieved but no, the lessons of the civil war were not applicable here other than the efficiency of moving large numbers of troops by train. The question. Thank you. Good question. Hi. Over here. Im sorry. I noticed you mentioned a couple of different gauges that Different Countries used and some compatibility issues maybe. Were there any other compatibility issues with gauge sizes and i was mainly thinking about, you said the russians had five foot but you did mention what the germans used on the Eastern Front. The germans had the same narrow gauge as the the 60 centimeter. They used the same 60 centimeter at the front and had, what we would call an eight and a half gauge. Understand that there were narrow gauges in all countries, okay . And the russians five foot gauge was the building, the first railroads. By the way, the first railroads were built by americans in russia. The it was a five foot gauge. They had other Narrow Gauge Railroads where they had Mining Operations. They used a narrow gauge in the Mining Operations and i believed was a narrow gauge. I believe it was in 1910, 1911 that it was brought to either their five foot gauge. Their standard gauge. Narrow gauges of various gauges existed in all the countries, okay . In germany also, england had Narrow Gauge Railroads in their culture areas and whatnot. The standard gauging in western europe with four foot eight and a half inches, the french was 11 and 16th. By the way, i did Everything Possible to find out why it was 11 16 of an inch and the only answer i got is because they were french. I really tried reading through these french histories, secondary sources, French Railroads and so forth and never got a good answer. I hope that answers your question that the standard gauge but at the front it was a narrow gauge within other countries they had different gauges including the russians. Question on our right. Yes, maam. I have a question about taking horses on the railroad. My stepfather was connected with the railroads in france, in fact he stayed after to help with the switches, that was his specialty and you mentioned that problem. They used to talk about 40 and eight that a car could hold 40 men and eight horses and i know because there were horses in some of those stories that they use horses and world war i and even try to use them in world war ii because when my brother was in the cavalry, they gave me him all horror so by the time he went to europe, it change to a tank. Anyway. Could you speak about moving horses . That always interested me how they would pack a car with men and horses. Okay, lets go back 40 and eight. That was just something i heard him talk about. Yeah, it was their cars, the way they were built, the french cars the way they were built, could contain 40 people or eight horses. Not in the same car . No, no, no. It could either carry 40 people or carry eight horses, okay . So that is the origin. The horse was really made obsolete by world war one and they use them particularly as Draft Animals to pull artillery and so forth or to move objects and thats because of the machine gun and the modern weapons of war doing world war i that the horse became basically useless as a war animal. In fact, in one of my books, i put down that during the civil war, this was a question during civil war, that in the civil war i actually ended that chapter by saying the iron horse as we replace the horse of flesh, meaning that the train, the locomotive now was moving soldiers, large members of the horses. Horses have been a war animal of course since ancient times. It was a weapon. You go all the way back to the egyptians and horses were weapons. And world war one, given the trench warfare, given the machine gun, given a chilly of the force was made obsolete other than the draft animal. By the way, after the war, the french government made one of those 48 cars a gift to all the 48 states at that time, 48 states and to be displayed in a park or a place in memory of the great war. Sometimes, if you look at four tee and eight French Railroad cars, you can probably find it in some state park in the various states. I happened to come upon it by accident when i was in arizona, i was walking along the park and wow 40 and it was a gift from france. Thank you very much. This will be our last question was. Yes sir. By the end of the war you mentioned that the rails were in a state of disrepair. Im curious, how was the state of u. S. Rails compared to the state of european and eastern russian rails that the u. S. Had overhauled . Okay, well the russians had a greater difficulty, lets start there in rebuilding the Railroad Network, okay . We did a lot to keep their trains moving and so forth. We brought over 1000 locomotives and 50,000 freight cars and whatnot to the russians, modern baldwin made, top line. They would have to their country was riddled with civil war, great destruction until 1921 when the civil war was ended by the treaty of rega and the russian federated socialist republic was created officially in 1921. The civil war literally wrecked everything that was used to rebuild things. In germany, their internal standard gauge Railroad Network was pretty much intact. Its not like it was bombed out during world war ii so their internal network was intact and believe it or not, the French Network benefited greatly from our rebuilding rebuilding their entire rail system or the rate major lines that led to the northeast. We rebuilt them and we left the equipment there, we left locomotives, we left the rails, everything that we could use. Again, in the United States, the railroads had to in the 1920s because now they are coming in competition with the motorcar. By the 1930s with the creation of the day bc3 airplane and by the 1930s it would come a competition with air travel. Despite the competitions, the Railroad Industry was able to get on its feet as everything did in the 1920s. You had a great rise in the economy and to quote an economist, the rising tide lifts all boats , so the railroad was able to replace its equipment and rebuild its equipment and whatnot. The only thing it did not expand track huge because cars now and buses were taking over so you had a decline and the miles of track into night states, but otherwise you had improvements in locomotives, the diesel electric comes on in the 1930s, more efficient locomotives in every way possible. I love seem locomotives so you did have improvements come about. One last story, and to answer your question about the french, and world war ii i came across this and kind of stuck it in my mind when i was starting on world war i. World war ii on train and freight was going to the front in france. It de railed and its truck that is close to four wheels were damaged. It was an american style for a train. The officer in charge was upset because they had to have days to get a crane and to get the replacement truck and all that kind of thing. Where were we going to find a replacement truck . He was complaining. A frenchman said, oh, this is not a problem. You have American Free trucks from the last war behind our deepest. Just get your men and get one of those and jack it up on the cars and put it under. That got me thinking. How did those trucks get there . That was a whole story that really opened up the incredible achievement of the United States during world war one and transportation and the railroads. That is why i say victory arrived by train. Thank you. applause as a reminder. His book is on sale in our store. Please head on down and of course if you have additional questions, rudy will also be available in our lobby. Thank you for coming