Transcripts For CSPAN3 Psychological Impact On World War I Pilots 20240713

House museum and has worked for the smithsonian and mystic seaport. Before wilkins is a published author of books and articles relating to maritime and aviation history. Mr. Wilkins has a masters degree in history from Harvard University and is currently working on several books relating to world war i aviation. He is adjunct faculty in the History Department at st. Marys college of maryland. Mr. Wilkins is also serving as producer of aerial effects for the lafayette escadrille. His book, aeroneurosis, will be available for purchase on october 21st. Due to unforeseen complications we do not have copies of the book available for signing tonight, however we do have bookplates already signed you can pick up on your way out or the speaker graciously agreed to personalize some as well. Thank you again for joining us this evening. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming mark wilkins. Thank you for that very nice introducti introduction, krystal. Im happy to be here tonight. Thaur thank you all for coming. I hope you find this topic as fascinating as i do. Basically, give you a little backgrounds. Sort of arc of progression for this book is an article i did for Aerospace Magazine, let me think, called dark side of glory. In Aerospace Magazine about two years ago. Anyway, the research for that article sort of open mid eed my to the amount of material out there about how greatly a lot of these First World War pilots suffered because it was a very aerocombat was in its infan infancy. People werent prepared for what awaited them. The first part is going to give you the context in which these people flew and fought and died and suffered then i have about five case studies taken from the book on the various pilots and kind of a lot of direct quotes from their letters and writings about how they felt at the time whats illuminating about that. Id ask that you save your questions to the end and lets just get rolling here. So, yeah, i brought my one copy of the book. The publisher assured me theyd be here. I apologize. I add my voice to krystals. I dont know why theyre not here. They were supposed to be here. Anyway, i hope you see it fit to buy a copy. A lot of fascinating reading in there. So this is kind of an overview of what well cover tonight talking about the various sort of components. Chief among them sort of this sort of a coming out of the Industrial Revolution in the late 19th century. These fantastic array of inventions that were produced in the late 19th century, early 20th century, seemingly in a sort of siloed manner. People making these things. Developing these things. And nobody could really kind of piece together the big picture. How this would all coalesce in the western front when war broke out. All right. Okay. Urbanization, yeah, this was those students of history out there will recall that, you know, beginning in postcivil war retruconstruction there was movement in america and other countries as well. Many of the urban, agrarian jobs, farmers, that sort of thing, subsistence farming, that sort of thing, people gravitated toward the cities where there were better jobs, more promise of steady work. This slow process of urbanization pulled people toward the cities and sort of left the rural environment behind somewhat. Yeah, working poor flocked to the cities. Hours were preunion, understand, pre federal income tax. The gilded age, edwardian age. As i mentioned, a dazzling array of new technologies. You have einsteins theory of relativity. You have, you know, henry ford model t rolling off the Assembly Lines. Other people ripped that off, if that car could be mass produced that way, so could other stuff. Textile mills, one of our key studies tonight, a giant textile magnate, had a major factory in the south. Elliot would eventually take over that business. Anyhoo, the brownee camera, photograph, light bulb. All these things were being produced and some not so fun stuff as well as well find out interesting notion. James beard. Not sure if anyones familiar with his writing. Kind of kooky. Developed this term, neurasthenia. Industrialization, urbanization. He blamed he pointedly blamed steam power, press for magazines, dissemination of information, telegraph, sciences and the mental activity of women. Go figure, right . A little bit of a crackpot. But, i mean, he does touch on an interesting point. This notion of progressively more technologically infused society and kind of a shift for people to adjust to all of this technology. This will become even more amplified as we move forward toward the First World War. So, okay. If theres one man you can point to who probably was unwittingly one of the chief architects of the slaughter of the First World War, it was this guy. He was a frenetic inventor of all manner of things. Coffee roasting. Electric light bulbs. Had a very active mind. As a child, he was hunting in maine and had a shotgun, maybe it was a rifle, and he was aiming at something, fired, the recoil knocked him to the ground. He remembered this. He said, you know, there ought to be a way to harness the energy of that recoil. When he invented his machine gun, he spent weeks and weeks and weeks drawing, he was a proficient drawer, engineer, craftsperson as well. Machining the parts for his first machine gun, he called a real daisy. And it was the gun you saw the western front and the guns you saw on the aircraft, ships, everywher everywhere. Maxin was very savvy as a businessman. Traveled he introduced he was made sir maxim turn of the century, 1901, around that time. He was in tight with all the elites and nobility in england. They took him around, spro deuced him to anybody who was anybody. He got in tight as a tick with the british military, before the First World War. He went all over the world, in fact, promoting his gun. China said we dont want such a gun. This fires way too fast for us, get out of here. So that was interesting. In turkey, they said, you have not invented a suitable vice. They say . You can come up with something thats a really cool vice, come back and see us, were not interested in your gun. Pretty interesting. One of the interest things about maxims thought process, he thought this gun would only be used on savidges. Not, quote, interecivilized peo. It is an interesting mental construct that he produced for himself. There was a number of battles where the british army just down with incredible rapidity and facility the oncoming native people that were attacking them. This was in africa. And he was a little appalled by it. And wanted to quickly, eventually, disenfranchise himself from this invention he invented and was preponderant all over the globe. He invented this pipe of peace. Right, could not go further in the other direction. It was a menthol inhaler for people who suffered from bronchitis and asthma. He wanted this to expunge the history of the machine gun for himself. In the closing chapter of his memoirs he says i suppose my pipe of peace will, you know, obliterate any ill be remembered for the pipe of peace, not the machine gun. Of course, this couldnt be further from the truth. In the hands of everybody, every warring faction had access to this gun or most of them did, anyway. Of course, nobody could, again, see the big picture. Right . Postnapoleonic war, tactics that would be used, frontal cavalry charges, et cetera, at the western front now into machine gun fire because people couldnt connect the dots of all of this technology and old tactics that were being employed. Heres another good guy. Fritz haber. Inventor of poisonous gas. Synthes synthesis, ammonia, bread from air, used to promote agriculture. Since he was german, in peace for mankind in war for the fatherland. So theres the chemical formula for i believe mustard gas or chlorine gas. Of course, this was another thing that was available. Chlorine gas, mustard gas. All these gases were available. People are so preoccupied with can we do something, they didnt ask themselves, should we do something . Of course, once its out there, once you invented this thing, the specter of military application is never far away, never has been in the history of mankind. So these things were, you know, again being developed in almost a kind of isolated fashion. Submarines, oh my goodness, this is a whole other topic. Bushnells, the strange thing that looks like a tomato with a pr propeller. This is this notion of this deranged captain nemo destroying warships, et cetera, with submari submarines. Couldnt be more preshant, right . England, france, germany, u. S. , all had subs. The big question was, do we want to use them, right . Lord nelson called them thats what me referred to submarine as. He thought it was a very unma y unmanly, un not very chivalrous. This notion of a submarine. It was cheating. Warships should stay on the surface, follow the rules of engagement. Shouldnt have to resort to using subs. In england, churchill who was one of the first sealords at this time. You cant find fine distinctions in the matter of wartime if we find a weapon to help us. War time, we have to put that aside and win the war. Basically everybody kind of tacitly agreed they were going to use this technology. They just it was just an abstract concept. They could not see that the First World War was just over the horizon. They said well probably use these for war should it occur. They sort of back burnered it, like thats probably not going to happen. Although when it did, germany kind of, well, well get to that many a minute. All right. This is kind of an ironic statement by norville wright. The dream of flight being used for military application. Thats interesting coming from him because one of their Wilburn Orville keen on getting the military contract. No two ways about it. In all of their writings. Theyre really kind of the thing they wanted. Wanted them to buy their flier for the signal corps. You had this time from 1904 to 1914, had a very dynamic context for aviation. Especially in france. My goodness. Wrights developed the first flier, basically controlled flight, it was an okay airplane. Look at blerios flier, looks like an airplane, has a fuselage. French was taking the ball and running with it. Had bleriot channel crossing in 1909. The big takeaway, in england, everybody realized that, almost freaked out, look, were not going to be protected by our navy anymore. These airplanes are going to fly over the navy and bomb or attack our homeland. This was a huge worry. The first to call for air service in the uk, in england because he could see the writing on the wall. He knew this was cuttingedge technology. That sooner or later was going to be adopted by all nations. It was. Fast tracked in pretty much every country and an infection thing. One country realized they had a flying corps, flying machines, every country wanted it, like anything, balance of power. They got the government contract for the rigwright flier. Thing with the wrights, kind of tied with chasing its tail. Contract in hand, nobody wanted to buy an airplane until they saw it fly. So its kind of bottlenecked. Wrights were like were not going to sell it unless you fly. T they did this dance all over europe with the wrights. You know, anybody whos read tom crouchs book, the bishop boys, chronicles this very, very thoroughly. So, anyway, mechaniczed warfare. Putting all the pieces together of the western front. Clearly the dawn of mechanized warfare as we know it. You had tanks evolving during the war. Zeppelins, a great debate over airships versus fixedwing aircraft. They sort of evolved in parallel. The zeppelin raids during world war i were probably more devastating than bomber raids or any other aircraft type of raids. Zeppelin, interesting, they bombed london and paris. Paris, people would sit out on their balconies and rooftops and watch the zeppelin raids. As entertainment as the searchlights crisscrossed the skies and illuminated silverly things streaking across the sky. Of course, aircraft evolved in an exponential rate during the war. Think about the wright flier, wright model b or bleriots 11 and look at the end of the war. The various aircraft developed in four years. Okay . Four years. Wow. Quantumly forward. Unlike the trench warfare tactics fitactic tactics mired in there was none of that for aircraft. Aircraft manufacturers doing something right and rip them off and bed uild on that. Very compressed timeline. Weeks, often outside of months, had a new aircraft design coming off the Assembly Line that was allegedly better than the previous one. Beginning of the war we also saw progression from observation because due to the devastation of trench warfare, nomans land, could not do adequate reconnaissance across that terra terrain. Finally had a role they could be plugged into. Fly over this stuff, report on troop movements, artillery positions, et cetera. Reconnaissance became the chief thing. You have the planes in the same airspace. Okay. Originally it was salutes and semicordial hi, throwing shoes at each other and hammers. People started strapping shotguns to the sides of planes and taking potshots at each other evolving into a fixed pointandshoot weapon at the close of the war. This is how Aerial Combat evolved very slowly. It wasnt so slow, actually, it was pretty quick. So fighters were developed to escort reconnaissance planes and eventually the bombers, right . So what else . Sub submarines as i mentioned. Machine gun, barbed wire. Crazy calibers. Big bertha. Guns that could lob a shell 12 miles. Pilots called them flying rats. They could see the shells flying through the air. You could see a dark shape going the arc of its downward descent. Slowed down the apex of that so they could see them. Anyway, thrust in the middle of this, the poppies. I want to read from the book, this passage, that actually, yet, oh catcheth the heart. The twisted trees. Desecrated cemeteries. Opening candid to the blue heaven. The poppies were growing. Crimson poli poppies. Heedless of human fury and stupidity. Flanders, poppies basking in the sun. You know the famous poem by john mccray, flanders field. These poppies grew in the weirdest places. The other thing i was commenting on before the talk a lot of weird things happen at the western front that were counterintuitive to what you would expect. For example, artillery barrages went on all day long. Like a distant throbbing thunder all day long. So late at night, 10 00, 11 00, when the firing finally stop, the birds would start to chirp all night long until the firing started again. You had crazy reversal. Flowers growing on clumps of mangled carnage. And, you know, the mud and blood of french warfare. Birds chirping at night. All these fantastic weapons. Mariners, whatnot, people in tanks, felt like they were fa facing an enemy, war of shahemas and it was very difficult to identify your opponent or enemy as a human being. Very different context from the frontal assaults of previous wars where youd see your enemy up close and engage in handtohand combat. You could argue this basically facilitated the slaughter. If you cant see the enemy, you know youre destroying it, it makes it easier to do so. This is the exact problem we have with our fliers well get to in a bit is sort of the takeaway is when these people confronted their victims as people, they suffered grievously. Right . Were talking about the fliers. Immortal ace. With trench warfare going so poorly, epic carnage, people were resigned to their fate. Notion of these fliers, these guys far above it all flying sort of in this oneonone type of combat as opposed to the group slaughter of the trenches below was a romanticized notion. Pilots were promoted as kind of like rock stars or movie stars. You know, famous cards of people who these cards were, you know, look at the pictures, i have two of them here. These people were made out to be larger than life and it gave people hope in the trenches in short. There was an idealized notion of fliers being romantic, this chivalrous stuff thats overdone, admittedly. French, germany and the u. S. Eventually all promoted their aces especially france and germany. Britain did not. The air marshalll at the time thought it was unfair to the troops to promote the fliers because what about the troops that are fighting and dying, too . Shouldnt they be promoted . But what he didnt realize, a lot of the fliers mentioned this, was that the troops, especially the people in the trenches, they needed heroes. They needed something to point to that was actually working in this war. Seeming to work, anyway, and these fliers fit that purpose and most of the pilots they knew they were far from invincible. The aces died just like everybody else. But for a time especially over time that image became more and more burnished. Promoted by the press. There were elaborate ceremonies. The pilots were given that. Very amped up publicized event. All papers. People would see this. Proof of german superiority or france proof of french superiority. It did give people hope. Well get to the way france fell in love with this man, actually fairly unique. I call him the antiace because he didnt really fit the ace archetype. Anyway. What else can i talk about this, yeah. Okay. Some people were disgusted by the notion of the aces. He knew by that point in the war their business was a grisly one. Okay . Nothing romantic about it. So, finally, aviation psychiatry. Wow. This is an interesting subject. The notion of combat sipsychiat during the First World War is fascinating. Youre all familiar with the term, shellshock, i would assume. Which was an inadequate term to describe what was happening to these people who came from largely rural environments and used to very quiet lifestyle being thrust into what i call a tech shock of a western front where you have this faceless mechanized enemy destroying everything around you. How does the average psyche come to grips with that . Shell shock, doctors orange fally the notion of military psychiatry d symbiotically with the war. Before the war, notions of any kind of mental problems was largely viewed as cowardice. This continued during the First World War. In england, alone, 3,000 cases of cowardice. 342 i believe were executed for it. After the war, after these sort of sacrificial executions, the doctors said, you know, these guys really werent many of these guys werent to blame. They were suffering from general war neurosis and shouldnt have been treated this way. Anyway, thats getting ahead of ourselves. Aeroneurosis, this is the title of my book. I wasnt really happy with it, but the publisher thought it was a good idea. I guess its catchy, but it describes any nervous condition brought on by flying. Really what the book is about is combat fatigue and how killing people is never a good thing. Okay . If youre a human being with a conscience, killing people is just its a game changer. And we see this in all the writings of these pilots. So, backing up again. Early treatments and diagnosis for shell shock and any kind of war neurosis was designed to get troops and pilots back into the trenches or back into the cockpits as quickly, efficiently, as possible. So this is shell shock was originally seen as sort of physiological, physiomechanical. In other words, blasts from shells are damaging these peoples brains. Its a physical thing. Can eventually be returned to duty. The problem, that type of treatment took a long time. They saw it as psychological, psychiatric, a few weeks in the hospital, they could be returned to the front. That was seen as a more expeditious solution to getting guys back to the fighting. It wasnt humanistic by any stretch of the imagination. It was structural to win the war, okay . So you had a lot of repression going on in the First World War. This was actively encouraged in the squadrons. British, for example, you see this with elliot whitesprings and William Lambert. There was a notion that within the squadron among your fellow pilots that you maintain a disposition of cheerfulness and upbeat sort of dialogue. You dont talk about whats bothering you. So this type of repression, psychiatrists came to understand, was actually exponentially accelerating and increasing the rate of suffering and braekdoeakbreakdown. We know now that talking about it this is where william rivers psychodynamics said that. Its basically to confront whats bothering you as quickly as possible will heal you much more quickly than repressing it. A lot of the rivers aside a lot of the other types of doctors were advocating repression and just do not its not, you know, with enough rest and good food, fresh air, music, light entertainment, youll be fine. You can go back. This is what a lot of the pilots did and it didnt work because what was eroding their hearts and souls was countered one of these experiences, even after the rest they carried that trauma with them, it would snowball and lead to a phenomenal breakdown. Thats craig lockhart. Turn it on. Craig lockhart hospital. Thats rivers. This is a firing squad, shooting somebody accused of cowardice. This needs no explanation. This guys clearly not having a good day. At the conclusion of war, the psychiatrist, squadron, e. W. Craig listed 18 causes he believed led to nervous breakdown. Some of this is physiological. High altitude low altitude. People didnt realize hypoxia, oxygen want, was a phenomena. They didnt believe that. Some of these guys were flying pat 18,000 feet and wondering why their ears were bleeding. They were dizzy. They were nauseous. Headaches. All of this stuff. They didnt put two and two together until late in the war. Extremes of flying High Altitudes, low altitudes, long periods of flying without leave because they didnt realize the necessity of rest and when a pilot is getting traumatized and taken off frontline duty. Alcohol and tobacco, this is funny because especially alcohol, ted parsons of the lafayette escadri, i have a quote from him in a minute. He was advocating alcohol. All the pilots drank it as a tonic for their nerves. One of the pilots well talk about in a bit, a steady diet of milk and brandy for three months to deal with the effects of High Altitude low altitudes. Parsons would take a flacsk wit him, only way he could go, a flask. All the pilots did this. Mcmanik well get to in a bit, a fascinating subject, he made the top five of things that should have taken him offline. Thats the other thing you have to realize. Most of these pilots that flew in the First World War, they would be washed out instantly, some of them, many of them, in todays pilot programs because they just werent they werent the right type. People that had an excessive imagination, all the doctors at the time said imagination is not a good thing for a combat pilot. But you read the tracks these guys wrote, one, for example, the guy had a heck of a imagination. The way he describes things. Well see. All of them did. Elliot writer. He wanted to be a writer. That was his thing. Great poetly and great tracks. Its fortunate a lot of them wrote about their experiences otherwise we wouldnt know what we know. Some of these later ones, insomn insomnia, well, plenty brooding over trivial matters with connection of ones work. Obsessions. This is mcmanik in a word. He was obsessed well im getting ahead of myself. I cant resist. He was obsessed with going down in flames. Selffulfilling prophecy. Just how he went down. A lot of these things came too late in the game to be of structural use to help people during the war but realized after the other thing is t the ill just get to that slide. So this is ted parsons. Ill read the quote if you cant read it. No matter whether a man is visibly scared or not by a shower of flying lead, each time it happens to him it leaves an invisible scar. He begins flinching before he knows it and in the end the strain cuts into his nerves. If he hasnt a settive for those strained nerves and sometimes despite, a bird is slykely to get so screwy, it goes wild and begs for danger like dope or gets the windup and comes uncompletely unstuck. Little period verbiage going on. The windup is becoming panicked, right, very anxious. So what thats parsons there with his training helmet, which hilarious. If you landed on your head, that would supposedly save you from getting a concussion. Many of them did. Anyway, he was advocating alcohol. He said, we need it. He said, without it, we would, you know, all be in the loonybin in short order. So parsons was one of the few outspoken people advocating for dh alcohol whereas the doctors were saying, no, dont do it. The doctors had never been in combat. Actually none of them had ever flown in combat. They were observing sort of the aftereffects of what happened. All right. Lets see. Okay. So i want to mention one more thing before we get to the case studies. Is the hospitals, people were not prepared, troops, pilots, navy, all of it, were not prepared for the epic amount of amount of casualties in the First World War. You had various types of hospitals, resting stations, nerve stations. There was a station not yet diagnosed nervous station. So if you were kind of mildly freaked out but didnt know what was wrong with you, you went to one of those and kind of endured a period of observation to figure out what was wrong you. Base hospitals and restaurants popped up like mushrooms all over the french countryside, all over england. Properties were coopted. Where roy brown was treated, there was an ref hospital there, number 24 General Hospital, and he just mentioned, like, old schools, gymnasiums. Any structure that the military leadership could coopt, they would, and turn it into a hospital. Its fascinating. Theres a pamphlet. Old hospitals of world war i. I was on it because i was trying to find some research, but it talks about the structures that were coopted. If the school was out during the summer, okay, we got that school for three months. Great. Well make it a hospital. An empty school. Well put beds if there. They werent prepared for the amount of casualties that were incurred, you know, psychiatry was an offshoot, subset of that. And they were equally unprepared for that. At the end of the war there was a number of tracks published by the u. S. , english published a number of tracks on aviation psychiatry in an attempt to sort of codify, get a handle on what they learned. A lot of it, like i said, is a little abstract because theyre trying to make it theyre trying to point to things they can fix. Like not enough rest. Bad food. Smoking. Alcohol. We can fix those things, but the real thing we cant fix is what these guys are actually doing is killing people. So, anyway, im getting carried away. Let me let me get to our first case study. Elliot whitesprings. This guy is fascinating. I dont know if anybodys read warburgs diary of the unknown aviator. He attributed the author attribute attributed john, his close friend who died in the war, Elliott White springs basically wanted the proceeds from the book to go to grieders family which is why he gave him authorship of it and denied authoring it for years afterward. If you read springs letters and read warburgs you can go line by line. Grider died earlier in the war. The book goes deeper into the war timeline wise. Lets talk about elliott. Fascinating person. Yeah. Bottom line, he add a very contentious relationship with his father, leroy. Leroy, oh, boy, elliott saw his biological mother die when he was 10. She dropped dead and he found her. And was traumatic for him. First trauma along his long his list of traumas in this mans life. He never bonded with his stepmom, as well see. Leroy was an uncomfortable father. He sent him off to school. Boarding schools, military schools. He was deprived of a loving, nurturing child as a boy and spent that time away from his biological family and ended up at Princeton University where he wanted to be a writer. F. Scott fitzgerald was one of his contemporaries. They werent friends but probably crossing the campus together. Wanted to be a writer and took classes in writing, fiction writing and journalism and all said basically, you know, you stink, dont be a writer. But he was like, no, i want to be a writer. He continued with it. Thank goodness he did. As well see, this was actually a key piece in him healing himself. Okay . Well get to that in a bit. So he joined in 1914 wanted to fly, caught up in the wave of excitement over flying. It was the most exciting and intoxicating thing that you can imagine. And i was starting to mention, lack of a decent home life with his family increased the bon ed. Talk about frontline camaraderie. Band of brothers. This amplified that bond with the three musketeers. So he experienced genuine war neurosis. And helped to heal by writing warburgs. Okay . Three musketeers. There they were. Springs, larry callahan, and john grider. They were inseparable on the front. When grider was killed, springs blamed himself, took it to heart. He was flying along, he could look back and see him then he was gone. He held out hope for the longest time that he was safe and hed landed, you know, and captured but he was clearly traumatized over that loss because he bonded so deeply with these two men. As i mentioned, lack of any kind of meaningful family life. And the other thing thats interesting about his book, the warbirds, allowed him to f finish the story the way he wanted to. A neat thing. All the things that went wrong in your life, write a story, somewhat autobiographical, you finish the way you want, its kind of neat. That was kind of a mental construct that he developed. This book was a big piece in his healing eventually. Heres a letter to lean e lena, step mom. Letters he wrote to them, saying they were toxic is putting it lightly. Mac is gone but hell never be forgotten until the huns aim improves or my bus goes back on me. Or i pass out from irritation at the doings of the springs family on the home front. Anyway, i hope my ghost haunts you and never gives you a moments peace. I could sleep with great ease but instead im writing you until time to go up on patrol at 7 00 to try and avenge mac. May your powder nose take on the color of an overripe tomato, may you never see your feet again except in a mirror. Im completely fed up with you. Letters, he wrote tons of these letters. Its hilarious. Hes venting, talking about his father. You do this, you do that, but you dont have time to write me a decent letter so the letters was basically the sum total of his emotional connection to his family so it took on this added importance. Every letter he got he was hoping for some heartfelt emotion that would sort of fill that void. That he never got growing up. So these letters took on this crazy importance for him. And one thing he was fanatic about was not his father would share his letters, you know, back stateside to various folks. Look what my sons doing. Shot down another hun. He did not like that at all. He said my letters, those letters are private, theyre for your eyes only, not for you to pass around at a cocktail party. Right . So, because it was their connection. However toxic and contentious, it was their weird little connection. So you see this actually with others fliers, too, this sharing their war experiences was a very personal thing. All right . These letters these are all from springs that im quoting here. And he makes a number of really interesting observations. So one of them is nerve. Hes talking about courage, real courage, under fire. Nerve is cultivated and may or may not include recklessness. It is the ability to carry through anything anywhere without faltering. A man who rushes into a fight and lets his hands shake on the trigger hasnt got it and the fool who doesnt know when to be afraid hasnt got it. A man with nerve is a hardened, tempered individual who may be scared to death but fear to him is like water on a ducks back. Hes talking about people hes observed in combat. Some died. Some got through it. Some broke down. The ones that actually excelled at this new medium of warfare were this way. Took a special breed. Okay . So thats interesting, this is a commonality for all the great aces. They had that steely nerve that enabled them to get through. They were scared, sure. Fear was a friend to them. So, but they were able to get through it and perform. Okay . This is probably his most poignant quote, writing this after the war, in fact. Hes talking about the best part of himself. No matter where i go or what i do, the best part of me wils always remain between zeebrugge and armentlere. And in front of cambrai. There also lies the biggest part of myself. Their memory will always be a sear. Wow. Thats summing up this war experience which is both horrifying and intoxicating. Thats the other thing you find in the writings of these people. Like an adrenaline junkie for today. This was probably the most exhilarating, intoxicating, frightening, gamechanging experience and these people, you know, were young. Good they were doing it when they were young because they probably would have never done it when day were otha they were. Hes teasing at this notion the biggest and best part of himself he left there at the front. So, think about that. At the end of the talk maybe youll have some thoughts on what else that might mean. So his book you read, warbirds, if you havent read it, you should read it. Its a very good read. Quick read. Its fascinating. Its semiautobiographical and paints a very good picture of what it was like. He was an american flying with engla england, the flying corps. He also commented on this notion of british stoicism among the squadrons, but yet these people were also very sensitive, even though they were outwardly stoic and sort of quick to laugh. They were very thoughtful, pensive, sensitive people, just like anybody. So hes talking about his mental condition. After the war, he basically continued to have this war neurosis and problems and he said, my doctor says ive been behind the eight ball all my life, this is the first chance ive had to shake off my nervousness. He predicts great things when i absorb his teaching and mental hygiene. I love that. He told me it was time for me to quit trying to cure myself and let him cure me. He said a genuine war neurosis after 1918 and that i apparently cured myself by writing it out but i didnt have the concrete foundation under me to prevent my return. Interesting notion. Orange fally l originally it helped as a cathartic release. It came back like quicksand. My troubles are rooted in 1918 and father. I quote heavily from springs in my book and warbirds like i said is sort of a synthetic version of his letters. He talks about, you know, its in griders voice, trying to do griders voice but you can tell its really springs so this is him after the war. So after the war, after he hes a real character. You have to know. This guy was a real character. You read his letters and theyre just, like i said, theyre filled with very color mful metaphors and assertive language toward his family. Most the guys barnstormed after the war because they wanted to continue flying. Apparently he partied quite a bit. He was quite the carouser and ladys man. Hed often show up at a party with a strange woman and 5 gallon jug of some liquor and party the night away. Right . So finally, begrudgingly, he slid into the role his father wanted him to be which was to take over the family business. Springs cotton mills. How exciting. So he finally did this in 1931 and he did a good job with it. He apparently went after textile production like he went after combat flying. He set up a loom in his basement so he could work out better production techniques to make fabric. He was very good to his workers. He gave them very good treatment in terms of wages and compensation. And he had this very provocative Marketing Campaign for his textiles. An example of his posters here. Now, see a lot of scantily clad women wearing springs mills cotton. There he is emblazoned with a tshirt, about every one of these posters on it. He was a kook. He also served in world war ii and if youre down south, the Elliott White springs house was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1987. So you can visit where this character lived. If you want. Yeah, so he he survived the war, you know, the warbirds was one of the first earliest examples of art therapy, now so common with ptsd sufferers and whatnot. And actually all of these men, by writing, it helped them. It really did help them, because they were able to put it down on able. Distance themselves from it, read what they wrote and kind of process it. I dont think anybody ever got closure i dont believe in closure anyway. You live with it and thats just what they did. All right . So bill lambert, very different person. From springs. Born in ohio. He was a chemist at a steel works and joined the flying corps in 1916. And sent to 24 squadron flying se5 as, a british flying plane. He adopted somewhat like springs, although more so adopted the british oppression of trauma and this was encouraged by squadrons. It compounded their suffering. Get to mcmahon well get a better example of that, but for William Lambert it was like a ticking time bomb. Okay . He did a very good job kind of he teases it. Hes not explicit like some of the other flyers but talking, watch the birds with wide spread wings coming through the air, even as walk on the ground. How i wish i could do that. Did i little know in a few years i would achieve the same. My mission would be gliding down to kill my fellow man. Already this is hes having a problem with this, and its not manifested yet but thinking about it that this maybe is not such a grange thing. Okay. So one thing many of these world war i pilots did and were obsessive about was working on their aircraft. They figured with so many things that could go wrong and so, in the context of combat itself being so fluid, dynamic, unpredictable, the one thing they could control was their aircraft and their own flying. We see this wee people like wernher voss. Various other german pilots felt if they flew well enough and maintained aircraft perfectly they would be immune from getting shot down. Another way to help process. Hes talking about his se5a. This idea of pilot and aircraft an extension of the pilot. Right . I felt i should know every whim, mood and temperament of a plane. Adjusted this, readjusted that, checked carburetors. I guess it drove them crazy but near perfect as we could make. May sound crazy but its the way i felt. Like i said something all pilots, the better pilots did. Goodness. And people said theyd rather have a secondhand airplane than a brand new one. Luft is taken it, made it like a fine tuned violin. This leaned out. Each pilot has there quirks they line to be tuned a certain way. Especially these aircraft. Goodness. They were so strong but delicate same time. Built of spruce and plywood and covered in linen, braced with wire, engines finicky. Guns more finicing, would often jam. That lewis gun you see here held 46 rounds. Okay . To change the drum you had to pull, release, it would slide down. That drum would want to whip off in the flip screen add youd have to get it an, manhandle another one against the air flow, get it on there, lock it, push the gun back just to reload. It was not like the warfare of today by any stretch of the imagination. Guns jammed all the time. Anyway. So working on your plane was one thing you could do to kind of even the odds. The other thing you see a lot with these pilots, and i wrote an article for air space superstition. Pilots would red baron. Prime example. Plane painted red to recognize his plane and be afraid of him. Right . People were doing things ted parsons, the guy i mentioned an advocate of alcohol. Get this. Goes to paris and sees a gypsy, fortuneteller. Says my lucks running out. What am i going to do . She gives him a stuffed black cat. Put this on your airplane it will bring you luck. Really . Yep. Just do it. So he does. Straps it to the newport and flying on mission. Comes back, sees saw dust coming out of the cat. Stuffed cat. He claims the cat took a bullet for him. If the cat hadnt been there he would have got shot in the head. He wouldnt fly until he got another stuffed black cat. In his book, he mentions that. So this idea of superstition, what can i do . Rick toven had a lucky jacket. All had Little Things they thought would bring them luck. Just another interesting psychological construct to kind of even the odds, because you saw people, friends falling in flames around you almost every day. People you would sit with at breakfast werent there end of the day, and how do you deal with that . Its tough. So okay. So this is a new phenomenon that also evolved during the war. This idea of strafing, strafing, troops with aircraft. This is this was kind of, most pilots despised doing this. They thought it was especially grisly work and this is lambert talking a be that. Poor devils were helpless. What a slaughter it would be. They were human beings i wondered if i could do it. One poor devil tried to pull a piece of sheet metal. One looking up at me. One finally shot straight up with a rifle to shoulder. Sometimes made me want to quit. I hated this aspect of our work. Guess i was not just made for it. Up see this a lot. Strafing, at the war became more mechanized from 1817 on. Aircraft, Fighter Bomber role and Ground Support as war, with tanks, battle of cambrey, the more was more mobile, aircraft became support. Second world war, the owning person that really liked strafing, the red baron. No problem doing that. Kind of bizarre that way. So actually mentions thatting oppression through and through and he really liked to kill things. Okay. So thats incidentally a picture way great expression. This is alluding to the combat fatigue that was just simmering under the surface of just about every pilot in the war. After the nerves, every pilot in the squadron about shot. Most doing this work three weeks, strafing, bombing, air support. With strafing closer to troops. No one complained, but look in the face of a pilot watch his actions, the story was there. During the fighting previous day, no time to think about it but 24 hours later it was different story. This happens, too. You see this a lot in pilots talking about their role. Finally flying, so much is going on, but when they are on the ground, time to think about what they did and how they felt, thats when problems really started to arise and would affect the next days performance. Loathe to kind of get back in the air and do it all over again. All right. So like a light switch turning off, lambert was, he lost his se5a, landed in nomansland. Ran back to the plane, so enamored of that aircraft. Under fire. Ran back pulled the clock off the instrument panel, and wanted a souvenir. Brought it back with him. He survived his war and made it into his office after the war. One piece that worked so lovingly on that he saved. Anyway, he watched the germans blow it up and it gutted him. So this is interesting. This is talking about almost everything from they da until october is a blank. Certain incidents i remember dimly. Vaguely remember the raid and seeing fires. My recollection, watching someone loading my gear into a tender. Later swimming with another pilot on a long, white sandy beach pap woman in nurses uniform strolling on the beach joined us and asked if we would like to go to a large building on the clifftop. Said it was a resort converted into a hospital. Later in a London Hospital evidently for whole of september. So the trauma, this person, as i said, was repressing the war trauma until his psyche could take it no longer and just had a meltdown. Right . Just collapsed. And the, many of these resort towns along the sea were coopted by the military as recovery stations, recovery hospitals for the walking wounded, because they were in a prime location for rest and recuperation. Water, beach. It was quiet. It was restful. Away from the fighting. So this was one of these places and a number of the pilots circulated through there with war trauma. Also this, i dont know if this is john mccrays funeral. Put that in there. Kind of interesting sidebar. Uhhuh. So after the war, he was still convalescing when the war ended. Lambert was. He had 18 victories. Okay . So he actually was a pretty highscoring ace. Shot down a lot. Aerial victories. Not things you things you blow up on the ground. Like others became a barn stormer and worked as an engineer. Invent add pipe rest for a smokers chin. Not been able to find a picture of this weird device. Apparently you could put a pipe in your mouth rest on your chin and you wouldnt have to worry about holding it in your teeth. Go figure. Maybe an offchute of his war trau traumai dont know. Used the u. S. Air force army corps and retired at a lieutenant colonel. Wrote another great book, by the way, looking to, about his mind, its a good read and reads quickly. 1973. His prized possession aside from his clock from 1084, se5a was a piece of the red baron a piece of the canvas covering a possession. Thats a picture of him in his rfc or raf uniform and thats a barn stormer. Most of these guys felt like they wanted to keep their and in flying after the war. They was an actual way, a very good way to sort of recover from combat flying, because it was purely for enjoyment and getting people excited about flying. Actually, i, two years ago was out in dayton, ohio filming for the documentary film that crystal mentioned beginning of the talk. Almost done, by the way. Premiering november 9thed at Wrightpatterson Air Force base if youre in the neighborhood. Anyway, i met a fellow a drone pilot in one of the gulf wars and suffered from neurosis of doing that and wasnt able to be in the cockpit. Dock it by Remote Control in a bunker and had a meltdown based on what he was doing. He told me that he was, hes a barn stormer, actually, in ohio. Modern barn stormer. And i said, so drone pilot to barn stormer. Tell me that story. He said, well, this helps me heal, being a drone pilot. Take people up and get them excited about flying in its purest form and helps me heal. Fascinating, return to the basics. Anyway. Okay. Roy brown. Roy brown was a an interesting character. Probably youll recognize the name. The person accredited with shooting down the red baron. Okay. We learn later on it wasnt him at all and probably would have made him feel a lot better but he died before we knew that. Yeah. It was actually, he was had the by australian machine gunner on the ground that actually killed the red baron, at the time excuse me. England this was kind of a fabricated story, my opinion. It wouldnt do for the red baron to be shot down by a mere machine gunner on the ground. It had to be by a british flyer to establish the hierarchy. Better than the German Air Force because we shot down the red baron. One of our pilots did. Kind of a propaganda piece in my opinion. Anyway so like a lot of these other guys, like William Lambert he grew up in a very small town in canada. He was into sports. Many were athletically inclined. Successful merchant parents. The town he grew up, carlton place, known for lumber and, a foundry. Potbelly stoves produced there. His parents had something to do with that. Moderately successful to enable him to pay for the school in dayton where he learned to fly, and he didnt have a very good time there. Tough to get his wings, because the planes kept falling apart by they were xso fragile. Need just the right flying conditions. He was there an inordinately long amount of time. He trained in the uk. Showed early signs of anxiety flying. Already kind of, had this on the brain before anything really started to crank up with him. Yeah. I just mention this, sorry, got to thats the write sch school in dayton. Go that site, you can go there and see where that was. Thats carlton place. A beautiful, small town in canada. Uhhuh. So this slide is kind of hard to read. Hes talking about training in england. This is the day off for me in fact everyone as it is raining and low clouds. Hope it comes up for a week. The weather everyone likes to see. No excitement in the last few days but already had enough to last me the rest of my life. Okay. Hes already kind of over it. And it really hasnt, the war hasnt cranked up for him yet. This was some pictures, thats a wrecked spad13 p. A common occurrence with spades. Basically showing clear signs of combat fatigue. Sort of he was in and out of hospitals most of his flying career. Sickly. Of course, a lot of this weeffes of High Altitude and cold. A lot of these ailments, complained about and sent to hospital for it. And raymond a very famous british ace, triplane ace, talking about visiting roy brown. They were friends. Says, i remembered a handsome black squared chin, found him different. Lost 25 pounds. Brown admitted living more than a month on milk and brandy. Had a nervous breakdown suffering from a severe ulcer. He was shocked and didnt want limb to fly any further missions but both menu this was impossible. Thats true. Today these people would vo bha been taken off the line and retired. Brown after his incident with the red baron, sent to training but he wrecked his plane. Some thought he was aeroneurotic and precipitated the crash, but, anyway. Flying camels now, as is coalshaw, and neighbor knows that aircraft knows its a dodgy aircraft. A finicing aircraft. So it compounds problems. In hands of an expert, lethal weapon. Average pilot, its a handful. This is a letter he wrote to his mother. That wasnt supposed to see the light of day. Talking about after he after the red baron was shot down and he was accredited with it, he was told that you did it, although if you read his letters, hes, he phrases in such a way that, i guess i shot him down. Im not sure but i guess i did, but there was another pilot with me. So, anyway described i walks closer, appeared so small, delicate to me. Looked so friendly. Blonde, silk soft chair like that of a child. Fraught from the browhigh forehead. An expression of jindalness, goodness, refinement. I felt miserable, desperately unhappy. A feeling of shame, anger against myself moved in my thoughts forced him to lay there. In my heart a cursed the thought devoted to death. Mashed my teeth, curses the war. If i could i would gladly bring him back to life. I went away did not feel like a victor. A lump in my throat. If you were my dearest friend i could not have felt greater sorrow. This is something, here shoots down the greatest german ace germany has, and he was curious about his victim and goes and sees him. Every time one of these pilots did this, it just did a number on them. So like i said, this is they did not have aviation psychiatry did not have the tools. I mean, wayne rivers and his theories were one pocket. Most treatment was skewed towards, like i said, getting back in the cockpits. Giving them rest and back to the front line and they accepted this. They knew this. After this, nine days after this incident, brown checked himself into a hospital and said i cant do this anymore. So they basically reassigned him to a Training School in england. And thats where i mentioned that, well, let me just cut to this. So this is an interesting quote, because its very difficult, if you look through the british registers of hospitals to ascertain which were actual think specifically for floii fl corps personnel. But here brown describes this number 24 ref General Hospital on the hill close to hempstead, a park in london. They do a lot of Research Work here in a different kinds of troubles, pa tuleculiar for fly people. Purely raf officers, lots of material to work on. Sure do. Good . Having a hospital like this as in an ordinary hospital they do not know how to treat the troubles of flying people. The troubles of flying people. The things that e. W. Craig mentioned. High altitude, obsessions. The various neurotic manifestations what they were experiencing. You have to understand. Nowadays pilots have, you know this. All types of safety devices. Pa parachutes chief among them. During the war, parachutes were frowned upon. They thought people would chicken out and they would jump out of. No, we will not issue parachutes they will chicken out, jump out of the airplane. So later germans allowed parachutes, needed every pilot. Losing the war, knew it. Didnt have enough trained pilots and an interesting quote about that when we get there. Anyway, brown, after his stint in this hospital, he was sent to a Training School in england. Screwed that up, and basically he was discharged, and went back to canada. Left the raf in the rfc, royal flying corps and in 1919 worked as an accountant in a Small Grocery store in canada. He wanted to get as far away from the excitement he could. I cant think of a duller job than that. Thats what he did. Tried founding a Small Airline and worked editor of a magazine for a time. Tried to join the world Canadian Air Force in world war ii but wa rejected. Looked at his track record of illness and aeroneurosis. Not a good fit. I know you still want to fly. Instead wend left, went into politics. Lost an election. After this bought a small tract of land in ontario. A piece of farmland, working in the fields and died of a heart attack. Kind of a very unglorious end for roy brown. But, anyway, just another example. One of my favorites. How many people have seen the great waldo pepper . One, two okay. Two of you. Three, four. This guy was the prototype for the fictitious character Ernst Kessler in that movie. A great movie and parallels closely this life. A colorful one. So unlike the other guys who grew up in rural environments, he grew up in munich. A bustling hub of education, industry and beer. A dynamic, wonderful city. Very different upbringing from the other guys. This will serve him wet. Early interest in aviation. Built models, joined a model club, and attended school of flying, an early aircraft and many of the early Aviation Companies that built aircraft also had flying schools, because you cant build an aircraft and not train pilots to fly them. A symbiotic thing to learn to fly and then buy one of their planes. Follow ke falker did this and many others did. Lied about his age. Joined up anyway. Experienced a brief nervous breakdown early. Learned to fly the faulker f3, and first aircraft to have a synchronized machine gun to fire through the propeller. Became a potent weapon for a time. A very unstable aircraft as well. Learning to fly it well was quite the thing. All right. So, yeah. So munich was just this, i mentioned, bustling hub. Urban environment. Not a rural one. Fared the best in terms of his psyche, although, well, until he didnt. In the Second World War. I dont know if anyone knows what happened to him, but he committed suicide. Militarism and impressionism were strong forces and attitudes in munich. Nationalism as in all the European Countries was on the rise. Many of these powers, france, they saw theyre influence waning in the european world, and war was one way they thought would be a good way to bring they are prestige back. Yeah. Munich was also the center of education at the time. Such that most major universities, you really had to speak germ ton keep up with the advances going on in germany, because it was such a hot spot for education. Einstein, for example. It was an Industrial Power second only to the u. S. Second to the u. S. Actually in only second to the u. S. In steel production. Were talking about material that was available for aircraft construction during the First World War. Germany had to things going for it. Steel and plywood. Wrote another book about german aircraft construction. Not trying to plug another book. Only reason i mention it. Interesting. Look at countries and what raw material was available to them. Germany had these two things. Faulker capitalized and albatross, too, on both of these materials, plywood and steel. Anyway anyway so that was the context in which a young ernst grew up. So you can see what a good, how remember i said imagination wasnt a good attribute for a combat pilot . You can already see that listen to this. Very soon so close i could see the observers head. Rectangular goggles under a great ferocious insect based upon destruction. The moment come to shoot in earnest but unable to do so. Horror turned my blood to ice taken strength from my arms and numbed my brain. I said passively steering idioticsly as we passed each other. Suddenly the machine gun opened fire. Bullets struck my ker. You miserable cower, the engine seemed to say. My thought, thank god nobody saw it. His first brush with combat. Completely froze. Freaked out. The other had no problem shooting him but he had a problem shooting the french guy. Yeah. Going through his early struggle about, you know, shooting other aircraft down. Here he is. Continuing. Nine decker right there. Actually a replica built by a guy in germany and flown in australia. Anyway, the moment had come. My heart beat pufuriously. Hands damp. Faulker flew like a hawk. The hawk followed me, did not pounce. Hang on a sec. Even as i hesitate i read if i fail to open into battle i should never have the courage to do so afterwards. Interesting passage. Talking about a defining moment. Its do it now or youre going to be a coward rest of your life. In that case go land, go to my room and in the morning the task of writing my fare a fatal accident while cleaning my revolv revolver. Either does this now or goes back to his tent and blows his brains out. The choice for himself. This is weighing quite heavily on him, obviously. It never once occurred to me, at the time it would later. Conscience of one sensation. Victory. Triumph. The blood corresponded freely through my veins. The tension was over, id been blo blooded. This is the blood lost people have written about so intoxicating. The darker side of the human passion, but its comes to the fore in war time. So this is kinds of that dichotomy between the horror and the, the pleasures of war, as was described earlier in her book. Death punched through the bear we ares in shot somebody down and feels he can be normal again, such as it is. Chivalry. This is talked about quite a bit in world war i. Its overdone for sure. Hmm. I better pick up the pace. Okay. So hes talking about this engagement. Okay . And he points to this as one instance of chivalry that he believes, basically. So lets see. Began to realize more than a match. Completely forgot enemy eight minutes. Flying on each other in circles, longest eight minutes ever experienced. Suddenly looped, back over my head. I relinquished holding the stick, hammered with both guns of the machine gun observing my actions and now knew it was his that i was his and basically afterwards dived towards the west. Sorry, skipped most important line. Observed my actions i knew i was his helpless victim. To my great surprise he waved at me. Stupid phied. In modern warfare something left of the bygone days. Some people, pet missimistic, h gun jammed and why he didnt fire, but uded prefers to believe ultimate component at work that spared him. If you see the movie the grade walgrade the great waldo pepper, robert redford, wave to each other and fly off. Ripped off from that. Anyway. Talking when he finally, over the whole blooded thing and seeing his victims as nothing but victims and actually starting to obsess about this guy, the lieutenant. I flew back in perspiration, nerves in a desperate state. Made a rule never worry about the men shot down but in this particular occasion i felt an insatiable desire to know my opponent. Shot through the head, by him. The lieutenant also in the wallet picture of an elderly woman and letter that said dont be too reckless. Think of father and me. Somehow one had to try to get rid of the thought a mother wept for every man shot down. Seeing this guy as, again, not a victim. A human being way mother and father and thats causing him some trouble. Big trouble. So this is another aspect you see bubbling to the fore in the First World War. Bynerism between the front line and the homefront. Very different worlds and mutually exclusive, actually. So while i was home i seldom went into the city. What was there to do . My friends at the front, many killed. Felt no particular desire to be with strangers. Invited only what i thought was good for them. Protecting them from the truth. Said nothing about my last did not want to alarm my father and furthermore, something i felt reluctance to speak. In any case i cannot speak of a man whose death i caused, a man whose bravery won my respect. Yeah. A transform thags occurs and you see it in writings of various others as well, transformation occurred, front line. These people became creatures of the war where life only made sense to them at the front. Life at home, friends, family, good times, were just like a foreign thing. Just, it was just a transformation that was complete. Yeah. So hes talking about this girl. Infatuated with. Painted her name on many of his aircraft. And this, hes flying there. Talking how these changed. Be absolutely free from restrictions and live freely like on another planet. First laughed. Girlfriend. Then her lips grew tight. Thats impossible. What would my parents say . Being on the front made me forget conventions. I shrugged my shoulders. We have become different men seen being at the front. Other things filled our life. Without being able to express it i felt a need to be at my comrades at the front. Apparently being with his girlfriend and loved, actually married two years and divorced. So okay. He painted her name on every one of his aircraft. He was obsessed with her. Talking about carpe diem mentality. Takes this back home says we should do whatever we want because i could be gone tomorrow. Shes like i cant do that. Come on. This was another whole rub with, you know, especially in germany. A notion of the front and home life and ultimately at the end, felt stabbed in the back. Led to fascism. Getting way ahead of myself. Talking about after the war. After the treatedy of versailles and germany forbidden to train military pilots. In the evening, a little in a depressed mood. Theyd thrown us out. Basically one of the outcomes of the treaty. That the military was well and the civilians blamed the military for losing the war. Theres that, too. Thrown us out. Few of us had the remotest idea how we were going to settle down to civilian life. You know, he said, one day if only we could fly again. Look at all of this mess from above it wouldnt be so bad. We sipped at our drinks and stared straight ahead. So this is yeah. Like i said, kind of what led to fascism, rise of the third reich, only the military had the right to rule germany. All right . Thats all fascism is. Basically using military tactics on politics. Exactly hitler of course being corporal in the First World War. So after the war, udet able to rebound, unlike others. 62 confirmed victories. Became a national hero. Saved by a parachute. Yeah. A great story. In his full fa faulker dives straight down. Hes like, im dead. No elevator control cant pull out of this dive. Getting quicker, wings sheer off ill be a fence post in the ground and remembers hes sitting 0 an parachute. Uhhuh unbuckles his seat belt and jumps out. Pulls the rip cord. Canopy opens. Hooked on the tail of his faulker. Hes trailing his faulker down. He claims that he grabbed the shrouds of the chute, pulled him hmm, hmm, up too the tail. Unhooked himself and the chute opened just 250 feet from the ground. I dont know if that happened or not. Makes a hell of a story. He claims this happened. Thats how he lived to tell the tale. So in the 30s he went on to be a successful demonstration pilot in u. S. And hollywood. Before cgi and the other crazy stuff they do with computers now in terms of imagery, where they actually, stunt pilots. Art and others, one of these people that flew in many of these early you know, aviation movies, and it was a good job. It paid well. Second world warp, he served in the third reich in charge of stukaf production. Put on quite a bit of weight. Had some breakdown he felt herman deprbetrayed him. That was his Squadron Leader and a connection back to world war i. Wrote him, paraphrasing, yew betrayed me, oh great one and put a gun to his head and blew his brains out. I guess that was always the solution when things werent going his way. And the great waldo pepper. So this guy this guy was perhaps the head and shormulder case for repression. Working catholic. Unlike other pilots believed in working together. Collected tactics rather than go to victories, wanted people to fly together. Became a model for raf tactics in the second worrell wald war. Always about the good of the group. Not the good of the one. Loved to read. Loved small animals. All of the flags today would say, aviation psychiatrists would say youre not a good combat pilot. Put new logistics. Inverted, shy. Also gregarious. Obsessed going down in flame. Talks about it all the time. Sizzle, sizzle, crackle, crackle. Hated the idea of the ace. Grew up in canterbury. Like other pilots a quiet, small, rural town. Reading and drinking. He was catholic. A small catholic area where he grew up. So, again, like udet, talking seeing one of his victims. First few shots killed a pilot. Completely smashed. Interesting also the little black and tan dog, dead in the observers seat. I felt exactly like a murderer now. This is, now e, he wanted to see his victim, the fact there was a dog there did a number on him. This is hard to read. I apologize for that. Yeah. Talking about flying a mission, and his courage all but have gone after the experience of this morning. So one thing that he did a lot, maintained, like many of the british pilots true to form very cheerful kind of black humor with the pilots and would go back to his tent, or his room, and he would wring his hands and grab his knees and rock and sob his eyes, sob cry himself to sleep basically. Called keening. An irish thing apparently. This is the passive aggressive part. He would be out wowardly everythings. I, roast the red baron but go back to his room and have a meltdown. Also an accomplished vile lyn i violinist. This is before any of the modern, like phones, tvs, radio, whatever. What you did with your time. Learned to play an instrument. Watch accomplish the double passages, amazed at emotional splendor of his playing. Something greater. Something no other violinist had ever conveyed. Agonies and mind and body for ideals can kill for his beliefs. Told us all in his playing, equally by the tall, gaunt figure standing at the far corner of the mess. He would play actually much like eric clapton with his back to the people. He would play in the corner, because he didnt want that to, people to interfere with what he was doing. It was so personal. This is what he did. A thumbnail sketch. Tall, lean figure, keep set keltic blue eye, modesty and dress appeared to me like all the other people who came under his spell p. A dominating personality. Whatever he did compelled attention. Obviously a born leader of men. He really cared about his men. Believed in group tactics. Often break off an attack of his own, to further his score, to help a fledgling pilot get a victory or bail him out of trouble. He was kind of johnny on the spot with keeping an eye on the whole squadron, his whole flight and help whoever needed help the most. So this is really good, a really good thing and a number of pilots that did this. Talking about his flying. Economy of movement. Never saw him looping or Wasting Energy inching power in this manner, a better than average pilot. Hated the germans. No chivalry with him and the only good one is a dead one. This blood thirsty attitude in another squadron, keeping war atmosphere. So this ethos of kill or be killed have to do this. This is our job. People that are kind of on the fence about it, this dogma helps them get through those patches. This is why they were fostering that. He went on a number of leaves, when he felt stressed out or couldnt hack it anymore. He would go on leave to england, from france. He would visit with the ailes. Jim ailes and his wife, dear friends of his. And this is ailes account of him close to his death. Before the last time he returned to france. He changed dramatically. Gone the sparkle and incessant whit. I could see him wring his hands together to conceal the twitching. One day started to tremble vi violently. Terrible sight. Saliva running down his face. Smileded and tried to make light of it when he saw me waging, wouldnt talk about it at all. This is the problem. He wouldnt talk about it at all. I felt helpless. He was ashamed to let me see him in this condition but could not help it how much hard he tried. Right after this breakdown, he felt he could unburden himself with the ailes. Such close friends. He could do this. Couldnt do this at the squadron sdmesquadron excepted from private. He wanted this man to see what condition he was in and went back to france for a final time and, of course, met his demise. Shortly before his final flight, talking about his idealism. This is an interesting passage. I didnt believe the war and in the great push of things rare and superficial. Talking to actually a nun. A couple of nun that would have lunch with the squadron every day. Mental anguish, fen official things for the human race. Exactly the same as we experience called upon by our sense of righteousness exists animal temptation. These boys tempted every moment to run away from the ghastly hell created by the maker but resist the temptation and die for it or become fitter and better for it or because of it. Talking the crucible of war being a characterbuilding exercise. These guy, terrified, wanting to run away yet they dont. Theyd rather die than do that or become stronger as people. Hes seeing this as kind of a positive thing. The war. In spite of all going on with him personally and around him. Okay . He was, by the way, many people were in the red baron, when red baron was shot down, many people sent condolences to the german to the red baron squadron. Sorry to hear hes fallen, blah, blah. Mannik was ecstatic. Couldnt be happier. Amazing. 60 victories. Highscoring ace. Helping lieutenant from new zealand get his first victory. Actually both in the mess he said what do you say, kiwi . Catch a first plane . And the kid said, sure. They shot down a two seater. And mick had a whole treatise he developed, didnt put it in the presentation. Things to do to attack the enemy. Violated two of his basic rules, we went down low. Machine gunner hit the, engine of his se5a and saw the flame burst out of the cockpit and spread rapidly. Plane on its back into the ground and blew up. He got back to the line. Poor mick, the bloody bas tards had shot my major down in flames. He would make black humor about going down in flames all the time. So on his brain he couldnt oppress it. Obsessed with it and it became his end. Running out of time. George, another very interesting person. All of these people are very unique individuals, which is interesting when you think about the Second World War aces and how they seem to fit a type. Georges was, distinct yet there were commonalities. He was slight. Sickly. Weak. Thin. All of the things you think of aces as athletic, robust, brave. He was like the like the black sheep. Had a privileged upbringing. He worked his way up. Bake a master spad pilot and had this very french unless one has given all one it given nothing. So he lived that. That actually was spelled his end because he was fried. Desperately in need of rest but felt he couldnt do it. Had to keep fighting. So where he grew up north of paris, coronations treaty signings, elaborate royal and at its height, his fame faily fy privileged. And this is an interesting passage talking about frances connection to this man. Because he was such, unlikely kind of stock in terms of what you think of an ace, i think france resonated with this guy. They could see themselves becoming an ace as readily as georges did. Put a photograph up on the wall for a Lesson Learned last mentioned in dispatches for writing this when we wrote his name and he was the subject for the theme. Sorry. Typo. We began to draw an airplane. Thought of him only after he broug was dead. And an example for all the knights in history. Should be the example for frenchmen and each will imitate and remember him as we remembered roland. I especially shall not forget him because he died for france like my dear poppa. A school board writing about georges made into a martyr for france after he fell. And like i said, all of france loved him. He wasnt the highest scoring ace. Rene was but he was kind of a jerk. Pompous, arrogant. And kind of a socially awkward, and georges, people could resonate, he resonated with people. And before making use, and predicated to future flights touch with his hands. Long, white hands of a rich student now tanned and calloused often coated with soot or grease and worthy to be the hands of a laborer. Every piece, bolt of his machine would release him from voluntary servitude. Basically, you know, he applied to be a pilot, two or three times. Rejected. Too weak. Guy cant eve carry a rifle, lift a spoon to his mouth. What do we do with this guy . His dad had juice, pull, his dad said, cant you just find something for him to do . Take him into the air corps and have him clean up trash or something. So thats what he did. Basically given the crappiest job in the squadron for a long time. The guy schlepping cans of grease around. Cleaning soot off airplanes. Every awful job he did it to learn to fly and be accept as a military pilot. Humble beginnings. Paraphrases, crashed a bunch of planes. Crashed on landing. Some found it funny, this child, among men, never open his mouth not have an excellent rep dags. I did not know what to think. Took up another plane, crashed it. This is alarming. We cannot allow him to demolish all the squadron planes. Hes a bundle of nerves and most brutal but best composed toward him. Squadron leader. He came to me said you do not know me but if you did you know i would love to do the things right. French paraphrasing. The guy on the right. Big guy. Yeah. Conceded. Okay. Fly another plane. Didnt learn to fly in two weeks, he would be washed out. Crashing all of those planes. Finally, most unlikely beginnings put his mind to it and mastered the craft. Became a master spad pilot. Talking about, again, this notion of nerves. This is how i master my nerves. The boss shot 500 rounds as i maneuvered. It was necessary. Getting shot at on purpose. My life was decided that morning. Without facing up to it i would have chickened out. Basically he set himself up as a target to see if he could take it. Chicken out or not, and he didnt. So without going into excesses about him, he became a very good spad pilot. Spad was a fast, stable gun platform, highspeed. Another shift in the war from turn fighters like the newports and the ball tralbatross and th triplanes. They were speed altitude and fire power, it was important as in the Second World War. Anyway, so his former flight intrui instructor invited him to dinner and a consultlike demagogue in france. Entry the public gave him ovation. Orchestra stopped what they were playing. Almost impossible to dine with the guests asking for autographs. On their menus for postcards. Ladies wanted to touch or graze against him. The entire room stood up again when he finished. So he wouldnt really go anywhere. Like a rock star. Just like, oh, my god its him like a cult figure, and he was this is the beginning of his demise. He was tired. Look at pictures of him in the beginning and the end. Its a world of difference. He seems much more comic, much more relaxed in early photographs. Later photographs, face sunken. That 5,000yard stare. Too much combat. Really good but also became, many of these aces became a victim of their own success, always trying to keep his score going. Increasing. Increasing, increasing. Became an addiction. He had bad luck. Wasnt shooting anything down. Trying to overcome this bad lack is a hard time but he would not give up. Like a skilled gambler, noofhe w he was getting manic, sloppy, making mistakes. Still pushing through trying to get another victory. Clearly he should have, should have relaxed and taken some leave and regrouped. So this is an interesting passage that talks about many his biographer, talking about a notion of the ace and the air fighter. Public as a rule has a misconception about air fighting and combat pilots. Directing dog fights, relaxed. I cannot expression hearing miss conceptions directed to me in the form of compliments im compelled to bear it. Poor fellow, ought not to think about this subject you know nothing about it and dont understand the first word of it. If i responded no one would think of honoring my sintatory, by desire to spread correct information. Instead think i as rude, boastful or something else. The reason i listen, remain quiet and let the notion gnaw a the me. Some say its better. If a layman knew what we know he would possibly no longer admire us. End of the war. This is when tactics were codified in terms of shooting aircraft down. Americas ace of aces referred to this dog fighting end of the war as scientific murder. Because everything had been kind of worked out in the form to make sense and no longer glamorous or romantic. It was just, just a business. It was something that you followed a certainly procedure, a certain tactic, and you werent guaranteed success, but certainly it was higher than beginning of the war. So his great a powerful idea and a frail body. Lived near him with the secret sorrow knowing some day the idea would slay its container. This is actually what happened. Just, kept flying. Wouldnt quit. Right . Because unless one is given all one is given nothing. Right . It was a trap for him. Final flight september 11, 1917, and, yeah. We dont really know precisely how he was killed, but likely shot down by a two seater, what you do with a two seater if you were engaging it, was you fly under and below. Two seater, heres your fighter. Gunner cant see you down there. A blind spot. He yawed over here so that the gunner could see him. Shot him in the head. Killed him. So anyway. Conclusions. About air fighting. Tech shock versus a grain of context, upbringing, copious xpamp examples of that, faceless enemy. Brutalization, talking how the human body was actually torn apart by artillery rounds. Brutalized and hospitals and medical staff et cetera had to come to grips. The most awful thing theyd seen. Certainly. At least in the civil war, since the american civil war. Shell shock. A label for combat trauma. Aeroneurosis, another significant label for trauma. Trauma of the war and most importantly, a finite amount of emotional capital, what they could endure and like i said, medical practices evolved sufficiently, many of these people might have survived or experienced less trauma. It just wasnt in place yet. Finally, kmped victims, embraced humanity suffered grievously. This is true. Every single one saw the victims as human beings it was too much for them. Good quotes about this experience by various pilots. To those of us who pass safely through this strife and blood shed and be affected by the rest of our lives. Maybe not matched up with the best i was there with them. My crowned honor of glorious life. Talking about this notion of just, summer of his life. Hes doing this, most intoxicating terrifying thing and not the best pilot but with the best pilots engaged in this incredibly lifechanging transformative experience. Okay . And again, this quote by Elliott White springs. One more time. No matter what i do and where i go always remain in front of cambray, lived a long life, with my companions and adversaries and there lies the biggest part of myself. Thats an interesting thats an interesting one. Arthur, here ap the corner of the chateau wall and the sunshine by waving grain, with everything as peace i remembered them and filled with a heavy sense of loneliness. Although i wasnt killed something in me had. Something gone out of me and buried and would always are buried in 100 cemeteries in france and england and companions. A debatable point whether country was ever in danger during this slaughter. Thats how he chooses to remember it and thats the end. So are there questions . Yes, sir . A couple of questions. Okay. Sure. Do you feel that the barnstorming of these pilots after the war was one way of almost trying to commitment suicide . The question is, do i feel if barnstorming these pilots after the war was a way to commit suicide . I dont know. I dont know. I mean, ive heard positive, more of the positive end of the spectrum which is way to get back to the purity of flying, before it was corrupted by the wartime experience. Ive heard that. But there probably was an element of reckless danger that appealed to them that they missed from the war experience. You know . The intoxication of combat. Barnstorming was dangerous. Especially as the stunts evolved. So, yeah. There may have been some of that, to be fair. And second point. This is is a comment. Just a shame its taken 85, 90 years to realize posttraumatic stress. Yes. Comment its taken 85, 90 years to realize posttraumatic stress syndrome. Thats true. Actually for this book i did talk to some doctors at wright pa Wrightpatterson Air Force base. One doctor sent a power point he presented in new york city talking about ptsd, and nothing has changed. Its the same stuff that theyre struggling with now that they struggled with then. So its just different label, different context. Weve evolved the hardware but the same, both desires and horrors are still with us. Yeah. Other questions . Yes, sir . The irish guy. Mcmannik. I wonder as you were speaking the fact he comes from an island. Okay . Where hes very vulnerable. Okay . Just like the brits felt that the germans would run them out, and, run them out, whereas, for example, those who could go back to the states had a different opinion . Yeah. Safety of the states in the distance to keep yeah. Commenting that the fact that mcmannik lived on an island closer to germany, lived in england. Operation sea line. Was that a factor that contributed to his hatred of germans . Whe whereas, springs, coming from the u. S. , u. S. Isolationism, coming from the ocean separation. Could be. Could be. I mean, he was he had a lot of frustrations about what was going on, and i think he channeled that to a genuine hatred of the enemy. He felt if he could kill enough of them he could vive the war. You have to understand. He was an idealist, germany the way they conducted affairs in the early part of the war, germany, russia was first to mobilize, but germany in belgium, to pieces of key information, belgium atrocities and sinking of the louis t louistainian. Germany did have really bad things beginning of the war that didnt help popular support, public opinion, about them. So, yeah. I mean, fance saw, basically saving france, a fight to save civilization. Germany was going to invade and ruin that, and draconian rules and repression was going to take over. Germany definitely was seen as the bad guy by most allies and not much sympathy. Nobody had much sympathy for the german plight. Yes, sir, in the back . You made the point very well that british social interactions made it very difficult for the pilots to talk about what they were going through, which was, was the wrong strategy for getting them bet perp was there any society or any air force in world war i that did better than this . Im thinking you know, austria and germany, say with the legacy of Sigmund Freud or carl did they do any better . A very good point. Hes asking with the british social interactions and sort of etho ethose in terms of trauma what they were feeling. Did any other country do a better job in terms of talking what the meant were going through. I didnt see any. You think with freud a better psycho in germany. No, i didnt. Had to get through that wall, all of that topdown sort of stuff, and they needed every fighting man to win the war, and so there was not much sympathy for people suffering. Youve heard of udet most outspoken. Others who thought that, another example of kind of what William Lambert went through. He felt if he flew well enough a round would never hit his plane. When he found a hole in his plane he obsessed about it for weeks. Like, oh, man. Theres a hole in his wing. This guys going to obsess about this and i got to sit through this stuff. Pretty funny. 234 anyway, i didnt see evidence of better treatment anywhere else. Germany didnt even produce a tract on this end of the war, at least not that ive seen. Whereas, the u. S. Did. Which is comic. Medical manual. Published in the u. S. In 1919. I mean, we basically were trying to come to grips with something we didnt really know much about. So it was funny. But the british, the british by dr. Graham anderson. Quoted in here. He was actually the doctor that attended roy brown at number 24 General Hospital. One of his case studies. What he writes about in that tract talks about browns problems, we pru zoom, as well as many others. Thats more reliable, because theres more patients that were actual flyers. U. S. Didnt really have came in later, 1917, and our definitions for air service were very rigid. Such that the lafayette flying corps, the two groups of american pilots that flew for france had the most combat experience basically cwere kickd out of the u. S. Air force even though they had the most experience. They were given prominent roles answers promoted because they were seen as Senior Leadership and could help. A lot of these guys that were good combat flyers werent good enough on u. S. Standards. Pretty funny. Im sorry. Im rambling. Other questions . Yes, sir . Going to ask you, how did the incidents of the ptsd for aviators compare against that of the soldiers in the trenches . The question is how did the instances of ptsd or airneurosis compare with that of soldiers in the trenches . Like i said, they applied labels to the various trauma. Like shell shock, for troops. Aeroneurotic condition or ae aeroneurothemia, and what occurred on the ground, artillery, fixed position fighting, characterizeded first part of the war. The sense of hopelessness and devastation. Whereas in the air fighting one on one. It was different. I think i think they were very different animals in terms of what they encountered. You know, airneurosis is not just combat. Its anything to do with flying. People who aredizzy, having issues with motion sickness, with altitude. Roy brown mentioning the peculiar troubles of flying people. Meaning they were specific, and they were. Like i said, if you went too high, you got nauseous. Your ears bled. Ernst actually said in one of his leaves youre not fit for flying. Your ear drums of ruptured. He was like, come on. I got to go back, join my buddies. After so much arm bending the doctor signed off on him but he should not have been allowed to fly. Stuff like that. Does that answer your question, somewhat . I guessaliti alitie little b i can see an analogy on the ground in terms of the getting close to your victim. Say, from the standpoint of a trench sniper, whos picking off guys, maybe a mile away, but he can see them up close sure. Plus epic amounts of carnage. Dead horses. Pieces of people all around you. Blown to bits. Brutalization i mentioned. Whereas in the air its a very different type of death. Basically before, before parachutes, go down in flames or jump out and fall to your death. Of course, the french were issued, what was called the french parachute. A pistol under the seat. There you go. Painless, right . Third option. Yeah. But, yes. Different animals altogether in terms of the manner of death and what you saw. When you were up high you just saw this thing fall apart and disintegrate, it was gone. You landed, went to dinner, went to bed, did the same thing the next guy. Your buddy, in the trercnches, hole there and part of his hand. Very different. Perhaps very different on the ground. Perhaps i dont know. Yes, maam . Logistics. They wint back to see the victim, who they shot down. They would have to land in enemy territory. Had a camera. How does this work . They didnt have a crew to get back up logistics how did they see their victim, she asked. How did they did they hand . Have a camera, how did they do this . Yeah. The ones that were able to be seen were definitely, you know, on their lines. When the red baron was shot down, very close to australia. Australias took hit triplane and put the body in the tent. Thats how brown was able to come visit, because it was in friendly territory. So obviously, i mean and you know, most squadrons were very close to the front to get there. You only had gas for two hours basically and castor oil, flying a ammunition, 46 rounds, maybe 260 rounds in a vicars gun. Post them close to the front. Approximately, take a car to get there, you see these victims. Other questions . One more question. Time for one more question. One more question. No . All right. Well, thank you very much. [ applause ] very good. Tonight on American History tv beginning at 8 00 eastern, exploring the american story with a look at the Great Depression era. Hear stories and visit places around the nation related todow. Followed by city tour stops featuring history of chapel hill, north carolina. Amarillo, texas, san antonio, texas, and Brian College station, texas. Watch American History tv over the weekend on cspan3. Talking to strangers, a new book, the author details why he thinks people make inaccurate judgment about people they dont know. Step on out now. I dont have to step out of the car. Step out of the car. Im going to drag you out of here. You going to get me and drag me out of my own car. Get out of the car shes imprisoned for resisting arrest and a few days later hangs herself in her cell. You know, a tragic and unexpected result. But the whole, that exchange that we saw, which by wait goes on and on and on, we saw a small snippet of it only, that was the kind of which i first saw that online, that was when i realized what i wanted to right about, because if you break that exchange down, moment by moment, you see multiple failures of understanding, of empathy, of a million things. Sunday night at 8 00 eastern on cspans q a. The president from public affairs, available now in paperback and ebook. Presents biographies of every president , organized by their ranking by noted historians from best to worst. And features perspectives into the lives of our nations chief