Butterfield, director of the fred w Swift National library. It is my pleasure to welcome you back here. And the Ford Motor Company each month sponsors a free book talk like this one. An opportunity for the community to come and learn from the greatest historians in the field. Thank you for being here tonight. We are thrilled to have to begin the program, im you. We will hear a brief hesitation from susan swain, copresident and chief executive officer of cspan. She will be joined by brian lam, the founder and executive chairman of cspan and moderating an esteemed group of historians discussing the american presidency. The american presidency is, as you know, a fascinating subject of inquiry in every possible way. [laughter] in the constitution, there is not much said about it. As you might imagine. Article one is quite long. Article two is quite shorter. As you can imagine, the executive power shall be vested in a president of the United States of america. Full stop. That is the first sentence in the key phrase in the second article of the constitution which describes the presidency. Much of what we know today as the american presidency has come from experience and precedent. From action. We are thrilled to have an opportunity to learn about that experience and that action. Tonight, a group of wonderful historians we will tell you about tonight. We will be joined by douglas brickley, Richard Norton smith, and more. Brickleys president ial historian for cnn. Historian of john f. Kennedy in the great space race. On the panel doctor meant the author of history, shes the author of lincoln and emancipation. Richard norton smith, an acclaimed author of a wonderful book on George Washington called patriarch. George washington and the new american nation. Hes written many books including one from herbert over, and served as a director of five different president ial libraries. Tonight these individuals will discuss their new book, president s noted historians on the best and worst chief executives. Please join me in welcoming them tonight. [applause] good evening, everybody. Nice to see you. And thank you, kevin. I cant think of a more appropriate place to talk about president ial leadership that mount vernon. It was actually cspans 40th anniversary, but what a week we picked for this book to come out. And also to put some Current Events into context, we hope to do that tonight. In putting this book together, brian and i have worked on nine of these collective works of his interviews. And this one we decided to actually bring two resources into play. Brian has been doing a sunday Night Program for 30 years. And we have an archive that is full of his interviews. The odometer in the archives is about to hit 250,000 hours this month. Not all brian, but [applause] but among the people brian has interviewed are these three people that have become great friends of ours over the last quarter century. And some of the country leading contemporary president ial historians. In addition to having the vast archive of collective works, about 20 years ago exactly 20 years ago in 1999, we did this yearlong project. Two year long project. I have cspan colleagues knotting about what a big job nodding about what a big job this was. We went to a site and did a two hourlong program on their lives. It almost killed us but we made it through. We needed to put some kind of capper on it. Lets do a survey of historians and take all of this biographical material that is more anecdotal in nature and put a little data and Science Behind it. We gather together along with Robert Browning who is the head of our archives. Professor john swain is a teacher at the university of maryland. We got into a wonderful debate about what should the 10 qualities of leadership be . In order to do a survey of 100 president ial historians. The idea for the book was to merge the survey work that we have done three times now with the collective content of president ial biographers. So the book you will learn more about tonight is actually organized not chronologically but where the president s fell in line with that survey. You are jumping through history but youre going through a continuum from the very best to the very worst rated leaders in our country. And you learn about the characteristics and qualities that put them in that ranking. Let me tell you about the 10 qualities we finally agreed on. The first is public persuasion. The second, crisis leadership. That comes in all sorts of forms. Third, economic management. The fourth quality was moral authority. The fifth, International Relations which includes not only diplomacy but also war. The sixth is the assembly of the cabinet and advisers. The next, relations with congress. You can have that and not get a program done. The next reminds me of george w. Bush, vision and setting an agenda. The next, pursued equal justice for all. And the 10th was performance within the context of their times. We sent a survey out to 100 historians. This is three times now. We worked hard to get people from different demographics and people of different political points on the spectrum so that we could represent lots of different points of view. This survey was so successful that we now do it every time a president leaves office. President trump has not been rated and we will not formally rate him until he leaves office. But it doesnt gender a lot of conversation about the current occupant of the office. I will give you a quick overview on the best and the worst so you have some context of what you will be hearing from the historians. The top five. Fifth place from the top, William Hitchcock is the biography we chose but historians rated eisenhower in fifth place. There is a hidden hand theory very about his presidency. His lowest score was public persuasion. The next we chose a t. R. , we used a wonderful biography called wilderness warrior. Im sure we will learn more about Douglas Brinkley about why he chose t. R. s agenda. His lowest score was equal justice, pursuing equal justice for all. In third place, Franklin Delano roosevelt. We chose goodwins really terrific biography on the white house years when they had all those interesting people including Winston Churchill living on the second floor of the white house to help them get through the war years. His lowest score was economic management. And pursuing equal justice for all. In second place was George Washington, scoring 1s and 2s. His single lowest score, and the folks in mount vernon have been working hard to help us understand is equal justice for all. And the top winner in our survey and every survey ever done is Abraham Lincoln. The top score was 1000 and Abraham Lincoln got a score of 907. He had a terrific rating on every single one except for relations with congress where he scored a 9. Who are the bottom five . Who is on the other end of the spectrum . John tyler is number 39. Our biographer does argue that he has redeeming qualities. I invite you to read that chapter. [laughter] the man who ended up not having a party but managed to establish the president ial succession because it was not written into the constitution. Number 40, Warren Harding. He scored 360 out of 1000. We know some much about the scandals that plagued his presidency. The biographer we selected was john dean. That john dean of watergate fame that knows a thing or two about president ial scandals. He uncovered papers of Warren Harding that were previously unknown to biographers and argues that he deserves a little bit better than the place the historians have given him. It is up for you to decide. Next is franklin pierce. New hampshires only president. 41st place. He also had a bit of a drinking problem. You might remember that he came in to office with a tremendous tragedy. They had three sons, you have lost two of them. And the third died in front of his wife and himself as their train capsized on their way to washington. He carried his sons dead body up from the accident and his wife had a hard time recovering from that. They spent much of the first couple of years on the second floor writing letters to her dead son. It is a very tragic story. He had a hard time focusing and assembling his cabinet, understandably. It put him behind the curve. Next up, Andrew Johnson. 42nd place. David stewart is the biographer we chose for him. The tennessee governor loyal to the union but impeached by the republicans using the tenure of office act. Guess who is dead last. James buchanan. This one hurts a little bit because im a pennsylvanian. I love the biographer we chose, robert strauss. I love the title. Its called worst. President. Ever. He is a full 30 points below Andrew Johnson. All of these people all of them are below William Henry harrison who was only an office for one month. They were the net negative presidencies. Lets look at how modern presidencies fared. Ronald reagan was the only one that made it into the top 10. Lou cannon, the terrific biographer is the chapter that he did. He had a lot to say about reagans command of storytelling while he was in office. George h. W. Bush in 20th place. It will be interesting to see now that he has passed and records are available. There is a bit of a halo effect when president s leave office. He is also book ended by the two adams president s. Bill clinton came in at 15. David marinusseminal biography, he writes about bill clintons duality. He could be both good and bad at the same time and it impacted everything that happened throughout his public career. How about george w . Just out of the bottom 10, his highest score was pursuing equal justice for all. That is his first entry, so it will be interesting to see how he will do as time progresses. But he has some difficult problems to overcome. Hurricane katrina, the economic crisis, and ongoing wars. Youll see what historians say after time goes by. How did our most recent president do . Historians rated him at number 12. A good showing for the first entry. He got 24th in International Relations and 39th in relations with congress. I thought it was interesting to look at these scores. To see what the biographers had to say about how the historians rated them. This is my last set of slides, who is up and down . Andrew jackson. Down. Over the course of the surveys come he went from 13 down to 18. Woodrow wilson down. Six to 11. You folks will have to explain this to me because i have a soft spot in my heart for rutherford b. Hayes. He dropped six points over the survey from 26 to 32. And Grover Cleveland, our only two turn nonconsecutive president went from number 17 to 23. Who are the ones that went up . Dwight eisenhower made it from number nine spot into the top five. Bill clinton. I told you he was in the number 15 position. But he was in 21st in 1999 right after the impeachment process. He moved to 15 by the second time we did it and he stays there in the 2017 survey. And finally, u. S. Grant. And edna will have to help me understand this one. Grant is the president to change the most, going up 11 points over the course of the three surveys. I would love to hear your perspective about why historians are looking more favorably on him. Now you have three fabulous historians that have been so much a part of cspans programming over the years that will add some context to that. Thanks for your attention. [applause] this book is what it is because of susans fabulous editing capabilities. Thank you, susan. [applause] Richard Norton smith comes to us from grand rapids, mr. Brickley from austin texas, and edna from howard university. I would like to start by asking doug because lincolns number one, he discovered got back from the Lincoln Library in springfield. And richard opened it for us all. It was 2006 . What did you find . Everyone should go visit springfield, illinois, if you can. They built an incredible new library for ibram like in. Lincoln is always number one. Largely because no matter how bad other president s think they had it, lincoln had it worse. He wasnt on seven states on the ball to vote for him. He comes to washington d. C. To have a body double. The executive mansion wasnt called the white house until Theodore Roosevelt dubbed that, the executive mansion had very lax security. People bringing animals in the from on, lincoln sitting there so vulnerable. I flew in there and landed in Dallas Airport which is very very close to the battle of bull rod, where the confederates first one that in there is Abraham Lincoln sitting in the white house with half the country putting up confederate flags, and trying to find a way to keep america cobble together. He did it in a miraculous way. Im always amazed how we are able to hold an election in 1864, and hes able to get reelected. When you think about it, to gettysburg address, lincolns first inaugurals are almost foundational tax, meaning theyre likely declaration of independence, the constitutional bill of rights. We arent a full nation without addressing lincolns accomplishment, and the emancipation proclamation of the original sin of the United States and slavery. Here lincoln gets to be the person who leads the abolitionist crusade from the white house, and put america on a new and better course. And finally its assassination of john works booth, school kids go to the theater, when you realize that lincolns body moved back to springfield, he is buried there in a cemetery in springfield, the train ride with his casket went across the country, at the exact same moment that the Union Soldiers and veteran soldiers were laying down their arms and coming home, as a homecoming. Lincoln is in a category onto his own. If you want to if you are a book lover go to the lincoln book shop in chicago that says nothing but books about Abraham Lincoln. All scholars want to write a book about lincoln, i never have. If i could have i would talk about linking going down the mississippi river, two trips and slavery markets in new orleans. If we pick up of where susan asked about u. S. Grant and you get thrown your comments about mr. Lincoln if you like. Could you explain why granted is done so well in the survey. I think every generation decides how they are going to rate president s and interpret president s. At this time in our history, saying that really matter to us our integrity. I know this is a scandal filled administration supposedly. He has surround him self with people who have not always been behaving properly. But he always did. I dont think theres any real criticism of him personally. It is also about the fact that during the reconstruction period, he is trying to make sure the violence that is developing especially in the south is quelled. And so he is willing to enforce those acts against the clan. And we really recognize how important that was. That is one of the major things. We have each historian if they would write a special piece about this and we also have one of the chapters from the president s. Richard norton smith writes the opening chapter and calls it a magnificent lion. Would you like to explain that . Along with arthur schlesinger, there was a preeminent Political Science named clayton rossiter. He wrote an essay on the presidency in which he described the president as kind of a magnificent liar. Who was more or less free to roam around the reservation at will as long as he did not agree joyously offend congress it was an essay perfectly attuned to the times, written in the shadow of both roosevelts, truman, and president s that were very assertive. Some would say imaginative in interpreting the range of executive power. And also governed in times of crisis. Any reader will take away just how evolutionary the office of the presidency is. One of the real challenges that confronts anyone any one ranking president s, we all agreed that context is a determining factor james monroe presided over the first Great Depression in American History and he was reelected with all but one electoral vote. 100 years later, Herbert Hoover was in and personally indelibly and personally associated with the Great Depression. What changed . The nature of government. It changed with lincoln and tr. Tr in particular, the bully pulpit, the idea that the Administrative Office had become one of advocacy. Advocacy. Protecting consumers against tainted meat. And Woodrow Wilson had a concentration of power during the war by the time hoover became president , people expected vastly more from the federal government. How do you weigh apples and oranges, but monroes proportion and hoovers performance . That is one of the eternal what if, anyone who plays this game has to grapple with. Luckily james mineral everyone in the audience would know the monroe doctrine, which is where you have hoover ville, sometimes people only remember a couple things about a president. So monroe got the beneficiary of that, we could be part of the virginia dynasty and having that great connection to washington and the other founders. I think first of all, you already know theres some cards on the side if those of you want to ask questions we will go to that before too long. This will be a 90 minute evening. I would like to go back to these three historians and ask you why the three of you, have devoted your life to history, and to the study of president s . I will start with at now. Mine is a long story. Ill try to make it short. So is history. Absolutely. I grew up in Charleston County virginia. The birthplace of john tyler. It was a county that was 82 African American when i was growing up. I noticed that we did not have a lot of authority over the county. We could vote but that was about all we could do. As a child, i wondered where i would fit into all of that. So when i went off to college, i decided well let me be honest, i started as a biology major. And realized i did not want to spend the rest of my life in a lab. So i switch to history. It was something that i truly loved. But i think just growing up in that kind of environment, and not knowing where at the edge of this three is what propels me into this. In terms of the lincoln scholarship. I sort of front im really not, i studied lincoln but i dont study all of the president s like these two gentlemen do. I think i became very interested in lincoln, because of cspan actually. Because of your filming of the reenactment of the lincoln debates. That was when i really started becoming very much interested in president ial history in general and Abraham Lincoln in particular. Mr. Smith you are story. Its pretty bizarre. I was a really strange child. Someone would say it was a preview of coming attractions. I was seven years old in 1960, watching as the returns came in, and i was about the same time i would have been given a book a blinking, which actually played to preexisting interest. Previous later in 1964, author of no relation named jim smith, published a book when the hearing stop. Its about the last years of hoover wilson. Whatever you think about him, i know he slipped a few notches, you ought to read this. Because he humanizes wilson, which wilson was not very good at himself. Its a model, of smart scholarly, readable president ial history. In any event, it lit a match. I am a lifelong wilsonian. But also, it is a somewhat biographical aspect of the presidency. There are a lot of of approaching president ial performance. As a biographer, i find every single one of these, maybe more interesting than most people do. And we also have to say, great lincolns scholar, tells the story about when he went to the Kennedy White house, and jfk was obviously not happy with the days News Coverage and he said, nobody should pass judgment on pass judgment on a president. Who has not sat at this desk and work on the papers i came across. I think it was special pleading there. There is only so much you can do for james buchanan. But it is true. The study of every single president is useful, and i think will deepen your understanding and appreciation of American History. And of this broad but immensely admiral experiment of which we are all embarked. We cant leave you without you telling the story of the trips he used to take with your parents as a young man. The Station Wagon from hell. [laughter] people dont do this anymore. I must have been about eight. I told you, the polite word is precocious. But i had four siblings. We used to go for a month every summer we would get in the Station Wagon and do a section of the country. The midwest, the deep south. Guess who gets to set the itinerary . It was all set around grave sites and civil war battlefields. We found out where wilkie was buried, we had to pay our respects. That sort of thing. The only concession that we made to the others was they got a Swimming Pool in the evening. Form of study that was a form of study. There is no excuse, there is nothing quite like being there. I dont know how you feel, but Andrew Jackson who is not on my hit parade of president s, goes to hermitage and you will walk away from it with a much more vivid sense of who was, including his limitations how did you get into this . I was born in atlanta, georgia. When i was young, my mom and dad would go to callaway gardens. Near the gardens was the little white house of fdr, state park. I cannot believe that the president had lived in such a small Little Cottage house. And that he and he died while somebody was painting his portrait only half done, and that the pools there i thought and understood polio not being able to walk, and he actually considered himself handicapped but yet he never acted that way. Then we moved to ohio, and i lived not just down the road from fremont, ohio where in a while we call the state mother president s. We claim seven of them grand being borne down in north bend ohio. We just, there was a bit of pride that ohio produced so many president s. And a little bit what richard was saying, my mom was a teacher and all that in high school. We would take our car a Station Wagon actually, and we had a 24 foot coachman trailer and we would go all over the country, visiting president ial sites and civil war battlefields, national parks. I have a lot of photos when i was young at the greater the president s, i visited mount vernon in virginia when i was young. I just got really into it. What i was going into college at the Ohio State University undergrad, i knew i wanted to be a history major because it would never work for me. It was never work for me. I would read biographies from great people. I think the biographies matter. Ed now was mentioning grand. Rebar fee of grant after it success with hamilton. It became a new wave of people talking about him and reassessing grant. My friend rather furred b hayes has not had that biography my friend rutherford b. Hayes has not had that biography. Grant also, when president obama liked to say i am a writer, he was a bestselling writer and writing his memoir now, he would look at all of the other president ial writings and the one that stood out was a grants memoir which a grant wrote with the help of mark twain. It is not about his presidency but nevertheless, it is an enduring book, the memoirs of grant, that live on forever. Those stocks of these president s rise and fall. I was once director of the eisenhower center. We always thought ike was going to go up, up, up because the fiscal conservatives like him, and the liberals like him because the industrial military complex speech, and brown decision, and the fact of his his general amiable like. He is fifth. It was almost always Truman Holding that spot. Part of it also is because we have a new appreciation for ike being the commander and in world war ii just as grant was president. While we were talking about lincoln, i would like to hear your thoughts on why it is that Abraham Lincoln at number ones book ended by the two worst . Is that circumstance of history . Character . What contributed to that distinction between those three men . I think that we tend to judge these president s based on how they dealt with adversity. There has to be something extraordinary that is happening during their administration. With lincoln, it does not get any more extraordinary than the civil war. This is a man who could have done what you what buchanan did and simply sat there as the country was falling apart. He chose not to do that. He came into office and decided that he was not going to allow the south to secede without challenging that. So, we judge him much higher than we would someone who just decided to leave it alone and let things take their course. It really does matter how one responds. It has got to be a person who is decisive, a person who is determined, someone who can communicate well, you can set a vision and pursue it and persuade people that this is the right way to go. I think lincoln more than any other president was able to do that. Richard . Is it the times or the man . If you look in this context, lincoln could not have been the greatest president. If his immediate predecessors had not been among the worst president s [laughter] on the other hand, lincoln can be criticized because for rank politics, he decided to broaden his political appeal in 1864 and put they renamed the Republican Party the union party. And they picked a man named Andrew Johnson, who did not lack for courage. He was the only southern senator who had not left at the time, the states seceded, as wartime governor of tennessee. Certainly defended the union. But he arguably turned out to be, after the best president , you can make the case for him is the worst president. In so many ways, he is the unlincoln. Here are both men reared amongst incredible hardship. And who both overcame that in their own way economically. But Andrew Johnson is defined by his resentment. His childhood inflicted psychic wounds on him. Resentments against aristocrats. But also against blacks. He simply failed to comprehend what the civil war was all about. All you need to know is one word. We talk about reconstruction. Andrew johnson preferred to use the word restoration. The civil war was not fought to restore the prewar status quo. Lincoln was radical enough lincoln outgrew the racist society that produced him. Andrew johnson was incapable of that kind of growth. You never want to have the word impeachment swirl about you too much when you are president either. You saw that impeachment had hurt bill clinton. But he was able to shake it off a little bit as we went on further polls. Andrew johnson has the big eye on him. Yet he tried to redeem himself, he ran for the senate and became a u. S. Senator from tennessee after he was president to try to build himself back into good graces. An argument can be made for George Washington to be number one. Playing to my home audience here. [laughter] we see how low washington got because of slavery and because of the time he was in. It is hard on that ranking to be rated high when so it brings your number down. Lincoln being a child of illinois, never having slaves, that the brings his number up quite a bit. The one thing, i mean i do not think there is a presidency without George Washington. Because, it is important to not just be a one term or one termer. People who said when George Walker bush died, he is the best one term president. John f. Kennedy was a one term high. But it is a good sign to be reelected. Like richard talked about james monroe. He did get reelected. So he is a twotermer. Herbert hoover did not. It did make a difference. With washington, one of the big things he did was step down to say, i do not want to hold power. There is something more powerful than being president and that is being an american citizen and coming back here to mount vernon and allowing democracy to take root. That is an irreplaceable quality that washington had. He set the tone and tenor of what it meant to be president. Lincoln has become the favorite of all recent president s. Barack obama launches his campaign from springfield. It is about Abraham Lincoln and the team of rivals. George w. Bush will tell you, my favorite president s lincoln. All he does is read lincoln books. Nixon during the hype of watergate would drink gin and talk to a lincoln portrait in the white house. Theodore roosevelt wrote about it in his love of Charles Darwin come our site our great science president s. He just has a real cast on the imagination, lincoln, because the civil war in the end is the crucible time in our countrys history. But really, washington can be tied with lincoln. Those are the big two. To what extent does his assassination factor into his popularity . Because he was assassinated, he did not have that opportunity to join the second term to make mistakes. What would have happened had he lived . Would we think of him in the same way . We go to people watching the audience are people watching at home. What would you advise them to do if they get interested in history. I know it sounds simple but we had cspan, we wouldnt be doing history if it wasnt for these terrific historians, three four of them in this book and over the years all the interviews they have given us. Why would you advise a younger person to, or as a matter of fact someone who isnt as young who want to get started . Enter my class. I would tell them to read, read, read. Read everything. Not just the kind of history that you are personally interested in. But all history. If i lived long enough, someday i will write a book on england. We it has to be beyond the president. What you are interested in at the moment. You have to look broadly at history. I would tell them first and foremost to that. And also, dont necessarily start with the historians. Dont start with the secondary sources. We are the primary sources. That will really get you excited. You get to interpret what happened in the past. Youre not looking through the eyes of someone else, who is bringing certain baggage to the table. You get to interpret, look at those primary sources first. In addition to all that, major in history in college, its a great major. Having humanities education is tremendous. Lots of people are worried about jobs when i do with a history degree, if you love history just get aids in college, and after your four years as a history major its a springboard for other fields. You can go into Public Service or government masters doctorate, become a lawyer going to business. Its a fine undergraduate major. You will have history with you for the rest of your life. But you dont have to go to history, go to college. Harry truman never went to college. And he is one of the most well read president s on American History we know of. He would read books about came back here read read read point, and also im just picking u. S. History and it applies to the globe. If you can afford it and get out there, well see places. Come to mount vernon, tour the museums. Theyre always changing displays. Get engaged with the local history site, whether its a fourth or cemetery, whether its the home of someone. Become a friend of one of those Historic Sites that is in your neighborhood, in your county or whatever. So you could start feeling like you could learn from experts and share your ideas with people. Richard what do you tell us where you are at this moment in your research and your writing on gerald are furred . The research and writing is indifferent places. Writing a finish that chapter which was the longest chapter, it took me an obscene amount of time because it kept rewriting it. I have a lot of new material. I have written 600 pages thus far, and have 400 to go. I take have another year and a half or so. The book will appear in 2021. Why should we care about a biography . Thats a fair question. Why . Gerald for like reagan, in some ways made a career very shrewdly on his part, being underestimated. To most people, for example historically hes kind of a quota of the nixon and ministration. An accident, i have discovered in fact his presidency is much more about the future than it is about completing an agenda. For example economic deregulation. Something that we take for granted. It started under ford. Ford asked a question, do we need an interstate Commerce Commission in 1974. That led to other questions being asked. Ultimately, they the regulated the Financial Services and try to deregulate airline. Its interesting because jimmy carter, picked it up it became a bipartisan and then a global they gave it a new name privatization. It started very modestly. And thats typical. The bottom line is theres a lot of unknown History Associated with the ford presidency. And the nice thing is, he turns out to be a much more complicated i thought i knew him pretty well, and ive learned a lot of things. I learned some things that he did not know about himself. By the way tomorrow morning, if youre watching this live at 9 00 the three folks will be on our c span calling show to take calls from the audience at large. Susan has some we could say here for a while i have some great ones. John asked we just talked about kennedy and nixon, kennedy and nixon are the two seminal president s in my lifetime how do you rank them and why . I rank john of kennedy quite high. I say that after really understanding his incredible leadership. When he came in the youngest elected president ever, that ideal Public Service that is put in his inaugural. He created the peace corps, and the seals and the green beret. He was trying to inspire young people to work in government. But also his interest in science. In 1960 scientists were chosen as times people of the year. Science was, john of carried and say lets go to the moon at the end of the decade and they did it in the apollo program, we have six successful mercury astronauts. He was starting to map the ocean floors, and embraced people like Rachel Carsons 1960 to silence bring, which gave birth to the modern environmental movement. He did a lot of right most for civil rights at the time of the freedom rides. Nixon has some successes. I mean when he won theres one bit of the nixon tape, its late 72 next and just beat someone in the biggest landslide win in all of america. He says im the best president ever. I just won the biggest landslide. I did a breakthrough to china. He went on and on about all the things he did. And the next month the watergate is piling up and his reputation is being destroyed about the combination of those tapes with antisemitic slurs, and the watergate fiasco. Nixon has not been able to track, it was him ranked so high in the tapes killed his presidency. Because they were the smoking gun. They were also hurting him from rising in the history. Where is kennedy because of the assassination in dallas, will always be the great young man gunned down in this prime. We will never see an old john f. Kennedy. Hes in our mind fixed at the prime of his life. Like ed now is measuring the lincoln assassination in the drama with that. There is a lot of what if kennedy wouldve lived . Would we have gone into vietnam . What what our country have been . Is almost a mythological underpinning to both lincoln and kennedy because of those untimely and ugly premature death. Richard well come back to him. Its interesting. We talked about overexposure. He started in 1960. Its not his fault, john f. Kennedy was a Brilliant Television performer. He was either the first celebrity and chief. He was so skillful, look at the press conferences. He was so good he said the bar terribly high. And very few of his predecessors could do it. He unleashed televisions preoccupation with the presidency. To get the nixon, we think of jfk as the First Television president. But it was nixon with the checkers speech, in 1952, who had this instinctive im not even sure he understood at the time, the and norm is power of that medium, young untested. To move people. Overnight, Richard Nixon became he is a unique Vice President in that he had a personal following. Because of that speech, there is millions of people before he spoke about silent majority, those are the people he was appealing to in 1952. In a fact he took the decision out of iraqs hands, busting on the ticket. Which was pretty shrewd. And later, Richard Nixon or reagan couldve in the early eighties, he skillfully used television in the white house. For example at the time of the vietnam demonstrations in washington, at the silent majority speech. He was one of the last president s who could assure himself with a phone call, that he would have 70 Million People that night. Sitting in front of them. You cannot remember an oval Office President ial address was a unified event. The only counter to it the people offering instant analysis on cbs. Today, we dont see many oval office prices, when we do theres 20 Million People out there who are twittering their own instant analysis. Isnt that terrific first free speech . Its not good for the presidency. Whats more important . And that metaphor what do you say about nixon and metaphor . Kennedy was certainly more beloved. In my house, when i was growing up. The only people whose images were on the wall, where the kennedys. Jacqui and john. Everyone else on my walls or relatives. My father who was a republican, dont tell anyone, became a democrat when kennedy ran for office. But he still had a certain admiration for nixon. He felt that he was a great president , until watergate. And he had never change his democratic evaluation after going with kennedy, he certainly did have a certain kind of feeling for nixon. I find nixon to be much more interesting than kennedy. Because nixon was so flawed. Your book really sells that out. He comes out loud and clear. Some analysts applause very insecure, who probably would have liked to done the right thing, but couldnt. Because it was in his background or whatever. I think that we could identify more with nixon, in terms of him as opposed to kennedy who was perfect. And we all know he was not. I want to make sure you all know, in the 44 chapters of this book, theres a different author, different historian riding each one of them. Plus we have a website set up for people like me were interviewing these authors, constantly being told stuff that i have absolutely no idea about and it sent me to the research, the primary sources as you say. And we tried to reflect that in our website. For those of you who just want to get on the website, and find all the background on that you could do that. Susan yet another question . Theres a lightning round question. For the two who are in the midst of books, with president was the best writer . I liked roosevelt. Id like to see our. He wrote 150,000 letters and his writings about americas scenic wonders are remarkable. He was an avid reader also spoke foreign languages. He may not be quite the legal intellectual of Thomas Jefferson was also a fine writer. I put tear at the top. Id say lincoln. In a utilitarian way. Lincoln is the original great communicator. There is no Public Opinion polls. He was lying on the seat of his pants and wanting exposure which he went out of his way even in wartime, to make sure it was possible. If you look at the second inaugural address, i would argue its the greatest sermon in American History. I dont think i also think maybe the second greatest speech by a president is actually wilsons speech in april 1917, when wilson who had been very to take america into the war, finally deciding he had no choice. And once he decided that it became a crusader. He wrote an extraordinary speech. I recommend dont take a look at it. I have to agree. Lincoln hands down. Its because of the second inaugural address. His Public Private letters to his friends, and two republican allies were really extraordinary as well. He said so much in those letters. He meant them to be public. He knew they would come out. I think theres no other president that was able to communicate as well as he did. Just with the words. Its extraordinary. Sometimes very complex, but still very extraordinary. At a fair amount there is a picture of peter drumming, and i took this picture some very proud of this. It is peter looking looking closely at the john clinton john quinte adams diary. It he has been a White House Reporter for 11 years. And he is distressed with the attacks on the press. How do we restore trust after the trump administration. One thing that is clear every president has had a problem with the press you can find in chapter after chapter. You talked about that in the podcast we did, how these are not new things we are going through. Is the relationship with the press worse now than it has been at another point in history. I think that the problem is that when we deal with alternative facts, when you deal with enemy of the people when we use terms like that it does erode trust, in a near sacred american into institution. Even though weve had those problems in the past, i dont think its quite the way it is now. Americans have learned to distrust what theyre reading, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, but when you believe that the press is out to get someone because thats what you hear that becomes problematic. And i dont know for ever going to get back to that point where the American People actually believe that the press is working for them. What about this edition acts though . As would say about nixon, and people who had enemies list, reporters that you want to put away into a with, and the reporters to get nixon in the end. I dont find when you read this book, i dont think its usually smart to keep worrying about the press. Most president s dont like journalists, and they dont like stories being written about them. Jack kennedy wanted to be a journalist, and he wanted to get rid of a journalist for the new york times. He said he should be writing about him. Reagan did it very well he didnt read every negative thing. You cant read all of the press, or listened to every bad thing and respond to it. Because you gotta start getting hatred in you and you start going after reporters by name, trying to dehumanized them. And nixon and trump both do that, which puts them on a bottom ranking on how they are with press relations. Roosevelt, would just and what you into the room. His trick was tell the report about how great his recent article was, you know the best article i ever read the best article, was just this one. And then he would write he would invite cartoonists to the white house and then have them do the fireside chats of fdr, he would call reporters in, and its better to interact in a positive way. Its better in general, but trump and nixon, are not alone in hating a certain journalist. Its the way both of both of them respond to it. Thats a destructive way. I would remind you, that on the other hand, president forward he is an anomaly, he actually liked reporters. He liked them were when plans were being drawn up for his funeral there were two mosques in terms of eulogies. He wanted a journalist, and in time magazine, unfortunately passed away and the president called up tram tom broke up, and tom started out his career as a white house correspondent. But forward, when he lived in alexander when he was a Republican House leader, his phone number was in the book. And his private number, every reporter in town had it. So he used to quote a late great reporter for the Chicago Daily news i believe who said, the goal of the reporter is akin to that of a man on horseback who writes down the middle of the street, breaking and equal number of windows on each side. To change the tone a little bit here, someone asked was a sense of humor, one of the important president ial attributes, and with that in mind, where did Calvin Coolidge rank. Coolidge didnt say much about what he said was funny. Grover cleveland, who as you pointed out, true story, he Grover Cleveland had very few friends on capitol hill. Late one night, in the middle of the night mrs. Cleveland, wakes up the president. And said there are thieves in the house grover. He says, no my dear, these are. Harry truman said, without a sense of humor, a man with go crazy in the oval office. And i think theres a lot of truth to that. I once did a notes on ronald reagan, he kept this note card system, filled with jokes. So in any speech, you could pick it, it be dogs, or who want this club, and hed have them in order, and he put these jokes in his speech. And it would it went over very well. Reagan was all about humor. And i think its a key quality, to be a successful president. Like you said, even though when there are exceptions, but president s need or have to show a robust sense of sense of humor. If you take yourself too sensitive to seriously you will become a bore. But he sometimes over did it, and so his cabinet members were a bit annoyed, because he didnt seem to be quite a serious at certain times as he could be, and so yes, when he was telling a joke, and that was the movie lincoln, it was so true that in the middle of somethings happening, and lincoln decides to tell a story, and hes told pretty much shut up. Its not the right time. I think humor had more to do with, helping the man than it did with sort of winning over the people. Certainly with lincoln. He said i believe, that he is purported to have said, if i couldnt laugh i would cry. So it was extremely important. Important for your mental health. Yes. Its in a profession where your values can get distorted, it is proof that you are grounded. Two people asked the same question, and they want to know from each of you, who is the most overrated president , and most underrated. Jeez most overrated and underrated. I will say we mentioned james monroe, i think he is underrated. I think richard was given a book the era of good feelings, but maduro has not had that big seminal biography, you know David Mccullough wrote a book on john adams. Or one of those treatments. And i think theres an opening for monroe to be understood more. As a Foreign Policy president. Those overrated, its hard. Because i just cant quite, because i dont think our top group are overrated. Perhaps we overinflate modern president s, because they are part of our own time, and we lose sight solve the president s from the 19th century. Because we dont know them as well. There might be a modernity inflection going on here with some president s. And you are in this book, would you like to comment on the president and is he over underrated . I dont remember when i gave that interview. Thank good you goodness you did, cause you would never tell us. He couldve done more, for that period, in an era, theres so much happening in terms of abolition is a, and like buchanan, he really doesnt do anything. Leaders are supposed to take the lead. They are supposed to let other people know where they stand, and move the country and what they think is the best direction. I dont think he should be rated it all perhaps, to me the most underrated until fairly recently, its only been johnson. We still give kennedy the credit, for all of the civil rights legislation, but it really was Lyndon Johnson who push that. And we should give him a lot more credit for that. Well hes 37 not 43, . But how he managed to get that. laughs . I would say the most overrated president i would say its Thomas Jefferson, and his second term was a disaster, he impose something called the embargo, which was designed to prevent war, with europes wearing powers. And it pretty much blew up in his face, and i had to be repealed subsequently. Can i ask you about the embargo act of 1807, did they really tight on all the ships in this time. In effect they did, and the region, new england was the maritime card or heart of the country, and it was an area of suspicious for jefferson. Unintentionally, but it contributed to real divisions, fundamental divisions in the union. The most other, or underestimated i should say, the least known, who deserves to be better known, i would say is Mckinley William mckinley. Who could be said to be the first modern president. He sort of straddles the 20th century. Somewhat against his will, took america on the world stage. Not only in the spanish american war, but also said is the first president without congressional approval, to send troops, in this case to china. And also remember, that mckinley, was elected in the midst of a depression. He was sold of like the advanced age of prosperity. Mckinley has a lot going for him. So i am going to defend Thomas Jefferson, because i think that Louisiana Purchase along, in 1803 doubling the size of our country, and the westward expansion idea, of Jefferson Lewis and clark. Everyone pike, that act is so large and we talked about reading lincolns reading and writings, you read Thomas Jefferson on religious freedom, i once wrote a letter of his, that would give you chills on how advanced his thinking was. In regards to religious freedom. And i get, some of the promises of his presidency, but i i regardless would still rate him quite high. I have two similar, questions on lincoln the emancipation proclamation. The seams were the same as the other because, because lincolns emancipation proclamation freed only slaves, and didnt free those in other areas, is it fair to call him the great emancipator, or is that just massive propaganda, for his time and time is following. I think one can be tied to emancipation, without taking all the credit for it. The there were many people in groups, who were looking at the abolition of safe slavery, and the freedom of enslaved people. We can freed those folk in the confederacy. Or those areas in rebellion. Because he couldnt touch them anywhere else because of the constitution. I think that we can forgive him for that, but him to it took him a while to get there. But that title the great emancipator, it implies something else, and he would have never suggested that he was doing it alone. Certainly the military is part of this. African americans themselves are very much a part of it. Because they are walking away from slavery, long before the proclamation, the proclamation is extremely important, it does give the license to live and leave, but there are movements bisque for that. But to suggest he is the only person to do it is unfortunate. The question for both of you, you did a book on jimmy carter, and on this list he has gone down, a couple of notes hes at 26 is that fair . Fair, middle president , great american, won the nobel prize. Habitat for humanity. When he passes, he is in his 90s, confronting bring cancer. He did the peace accord, human rights, recognizing the republic of china, panama canal he is the president who officially recognized china. Again there are a group of things that carter did, that are significant but a one term president , and there was a reagan revolution after that and for generations, there was no such thing as a carter, democrats. He doesnt have the political waitlist save like bill clinton did, like and projecting decades on the line. You did a book on Herbert Hoover, hes 36 fair . Who are and William Howard taft, our unique in history of the presidency. Men who were fabulously successful at Everything Else they did. Except the presidency. And that is significant. Herbert hoover, save more lives fed more hungry people, during and after two world wars, then hitler, stalin, and now together managed to wipe out. That is not a bad thing to have on your tombstone. He did not go heavy political bone in his body, he knew it if ego had not been there, he should probably have not run. On the other hand, people play games. In 1920, Franklin Roosevelt wrote a letter. For a fellow democrat, saying they wish that they could nominate hoover for president. Both parties, were interested because of his record in world war one, of feeding belgium and the likes. If hoover had been elected in that time instead of warren hearting, if roosevelt had been elected in 1928, instead of later its a game but, it is the element of chance. But in the case of hoover, he wouldve always been by the fact that his dna was absolutely lacking in the political instinct. Any more questions . I could find one. Heres interesting, would not incumbent parties have as many prime merry candidates, as we had before. I think we had 17 republican candidates last time, . So its yates its relatively recent in the 20th century. I would see the late forties and fifties, the primaries stored sort of became. What let me ask a question out of that . Did we select better candidates in smoke filled rooms than we do with the primary process . Yes except for hearting. laughs . The problem with the process today, its so scripted its a stylized, its performed with that camera in mind. That has distorted our democracy. Arguably more than any other single fact. Thats the point its television in 19 fifties, covering the conventions and then they became the birth of the candidate, now everybody wants to run because its about brand building a name recognition. They are building their branding the twitter followers, extra fees, book advanced. Its unfortunate also, we seem to be running these president ial elections like two and a half years long. Its just become a very drawn out process, which i think is a bit unfortunate. But i dont know how thats going to stop in this kind of media culture that we live in today. Can i follow up on that . How do you all feel as historians, as multi millionaire former president s, versus the harry truman who didnt even have a pension. What do you think its doing for peoples perception of the presidency. Its more of the celebrity vacation of the office. It is almost inevitable, and again its that camera. You want to turn that off . laughs . I dont get it. He doesnt. Either its not your life for four years or eight years. You compromise your health, you have angered half of the population most of the time, you deserve something after all of that is over. You can up your youth. Look at how these people have aged during their presidency. Dont they deserve something at the end of that. Not the millions and millions of dollars to get four speeches but, they do deserve something i think other than their pension. Jimmy carter, refused to sit on corporate boards, so there are examples of president s not wanting to cash in so to speak, on the presidency. But the amount of money you get for a memoir now, its like 10 million dollars. Its just on your way out for your memoir contract. In your research have you found out why, why did jerry ford start getting money for speeches . Because when he left office he was broke. Well why did harry truman go home and stay home . Thats a fair question. There is a myth, that the presidency changes people. You knew, that Richard Nixon would leave office, and as soon as he could with spread and every breath trying to rebuild his reputation. Particularly for foreign affairs, and do everything that he did. You knew when jerry ford left office, he would play as much golf as he could, and he would sit on boards because he happened to believe in, the private sector. And what people didnt pay much attention to, he also did 200 College Campuses free of charge. He enjoyed that. The first week he was president , he has someone he said, when do i get my first check. Because he was literally living from check to check. In the last couple of minutes, that we have we are talking about the same thing, mount vernon, is paid for entirely by private money. Theres a steak funded library, at the middle of ohio, every other library is funded by taxpayer dollars, plus the foundation. What is it about George Washington, and today its all paid for by private money . Because its George Washington. It really is a simple is that. We would not be here, we would be having this discussion, i think you can make a case that without there would not be a unamerican republic if it wasnt for George Washington. And certainly you make the point, that his presidency is about restraint. There is assertiveness, but ultimately it is about restraint. Its about walking away from power. Its about not confusing yourself, with the office or the country of which you are a temporary steward. And that example alone seems to me, is likely to generate the kind of generation, and yes Financial Support that mount vergne has has earned. So why is it the single most successful president in the states. Because of the mount versions ladies society. I think you have to give them credit for all theyve done. And ive seen this place, ive seen evolved last couple of decades, and they have done a terrific job. They can go a bit further, and id like to push them in that direction, but i think that they have done an incredible job. Part of the fundraising for this, is a business. It becomes a dedication. Virginians, to all that they do in the state, whether its montpelier, james madison, washington, it is still a great state to view president ial history. Tourism whether youre studying the american revolution, or simple war or you can go to Woodrow Wilsons home, its really an extraordinary state, and this is the anchor, the flagship of tourism in the states. Its coming to mount burden. Its the crown jewel. You want to wrap it up soon . I would love to wrap up. I would like to thank you and all of our colleagues, for being here tonight you have been a terrific audience. A special thanks to the staff, and management here what better place could we start a conversation about president s, and are book about president s then here at George Washington his home. Thank you for allowing us to be here with this great audience tonight. Thank these three folks are all they do. applause well i cannot invite all the people watching wife, watching live tonight i would like to ask all of you to join us for coffee in and something to eat thank you