Constitutional vision, you see Ronald Reagan aspiring to repeal the new deal republic through transformative Supreme Court appointments. Bruce ackerson was here. He argued that had reagan succeeded in his appointment of a rubber board, he would have been as great a president as roosevelt and lincoln because he would have been led to a new republic. With one more Supreme Court appointment, a republican president might achieve the resurrection of the republic. It would be just as transformative as the transformations of washington, lincoln and roosevelt. It is wanted to add one quick thing to that. I just wanted to add one quick thing to that. Often times, people say, about lincoln, he did not really do anything before he became president. I think one reason why lincoln gets elected is because the people cared about in the 19th century is what they still care about now. They care about vision. They care much less about experience than a president s judgment. Lincoln had both. Many of our great president s, that is what they have. Susan jeffrey, im going to turn to you for this paired why has wilson dropped so many points . Jeffrey his views on race. The president who resegregated the federal government is not a president who can speak to our time. That is one important reason for progressives now questioning wilson. At the same time, conservatives and libertarians are questioning wilson. George was here two years ago. He is coming back next wednesday to talk about his new book. George says, the defining question for whether you are a conservative today is who you would have voted for in the election of 1912. Conservatives would have voted for taft. Anyone who voted for wilson or roosevelt is a progressive. Wilson,races to woodrow the questioning of the separation of powers, the birth of the imperial presidency, the rise of demagoguery. Lots of conservatives and libertarians blame it all on wilson. That is a tough series of critics to have from both sides. Maybe related to that, for you to start on this, to shifting cultural views impact the ways historians rate president s . Michael absolutely. In part because we are embedded in culture. They can try to break a lot of things, but they cannot break out of their culture. It might be able to change the culture. ,incolns vision encompasses lets change our culture by getting rid of slavery. Lets break the chain so to speak and begin a different way of thinking. Then, unfortunately he died. Culture is critical for a president because it defines the context in which they operate. Susan will take about 10 more minutes with questions. Place. Jfks is it camelot . He did not pass much legislation. Signal things he ted to have done, he found well, not too much success in congress. Back, people who do not like trump are in a horror of our age, but the queue mid missile christ the cuban missile crisis, we thought we were going to blow up. I would not call it a great successful presidency, except culturally shared except except culturally. Except the idea that the youth involved. Any of these things that he represented as opposed to the old times. It is probably now why we are having a resurrection of eisenhower. We are remembering those old times is not so bad. As robert wasng speaking, silence is not something that helps a presidency. This reminds me of one of the greatest stories of any president. That is calvin coolidge. Coolidge did not like people all that much. He also was burdened by the death of his son while he was president. He also did not like to speak all that much. There is this great story that arises with coolidge when he is at a dinner party. A woman sits next to him and says, i made a bet with someone i can get you to say more than three words. He said, you lose. [laughter] susan not surprisingly, we have four or five cards that went to ask about the incumbent president. I will use this one. Perhaps again, michael, because you just talked about historians being a part of the culture in which they live. Will historians be able to look at President Trump in a nonbiased way . Michael great historians, that is what they have to do. They have to find a way to be dispassionate about their subjects so they can be able to write about them in a way that will improve understanding and enrich our understanding of history. Trump, itth president might probably take some time for people to be able to put him in perspective. That is what historians do. He is also a president who cannot stop himself from talking. The more and more words he ammunition so to speak for people to be able to judge them not just now but later. Susan im going to throw this question to you because at is about the Supreme Court appointment. 2020,less of who wins in it is possible that the supreme and gayll overturn roe marriage, which are out of step with public majority proopinion. Im going to use the president s ability to appoint and what the majority of the culture might be saying in Public Opinion polls. To help people understand that. It is a very important question. We just did podcasts on both of these questions. A plug for the we the people podcast for every week, i get to talk get the call of the top liberal and conservative scholars in america. We did a twopart podcast on roe. Since 1973, the polls have been consistent that about two thirds of americans have supported the right to choose early in pregnancy and a stronger majority, 80 or more, however have reported restrictions. Mirrored in the 1992 casey decision. The debate has been transformed with the fascinating new debate of new debate of when life begins. It is not supported by large numbers even within those states. The position does not have a super majority or human majority support in the writer states should in the red states. Conventional wisdom is you need another Supreme Court appointment to change the balance of the court cleanly to justurn roe rather than chipping away at it. Marriage equality does have majority support. It is for that reason that many conservatives and libertarians think that even the Roberts Court will not be in a hurry to overturn the Marriage Equality decision. That is the answer to the question that over the course of time, michael and many other wonderful scholars have written about those. The Supreme Court has tended to mirror the broad currents of Public Opinion on the rare chain on the rare occasions when it challenges them. It will often provoke backlashes that lead to judicial retreat. What is so dramatic about this moment we are about to enter into. Imagine the scenario the questioner signals and what i mentioned before comes to pass. President trump wins. He has another Supreme Court seat. Say the court did overturn roe or even overturn the Marriage Equality decision, which are not inconceivable. That would put the court in conflict with the majority of Public Opinion. It could lead to the striking down of federal laws such as regulations that are supported by a majority of the American People. What happens next . The democrats might be talking about court packing, about not funding the courts. The definition of a constitutional crisis is when government breaks down. One branch does not fund the other. These are some of the scenarios that might play out. It is a long way of saying that the court get strongly out of step with Public Opinion and the public has a way of fighting back. Susan this will be the last from the audience. It is about eisenhower inching ahead of truman and wondering what happens considering that truman gave us the marshall plan, integrated the armed and stopped the expansion of communism in korea. Michael it is another great question. Im thinking about eisenhower and truman. They did not like each other. It would bother truman a great deal to know that eisenhower just inched him. I am sure that eisenhower would chuckle. I think the fact that eisenhower to some extent has begun to rise nowttle bit is there seems between us and eisenhower, eisenhower was a president who also was not a man of many words. Andas a man whose deeds actions even as president have become important. Jeff mentioned earlier, eisenhower had to enforce the civil laws, but it took them some time. Much of the story of his presidency is how long it took him. That may be critical. He did not fail in the end. Valuingnd, he ended up something. I will come around to the fact that one of the things that are important our values. What are the values that animate a presidency and defined them . The president s who are regarded as great are those who embrace values that the American People as a whole embrace. President that do not do that, buchanan, fail. President who do that, like lincoln, are remembered. Susan the last question is about our poll. It says, showed the 10 categories be weighted . Genocide notns cap more . Are historians made the decision early on to be consistent over time and rate each category evenly. I would argue that the survey does take into account and that is why jacksons poll numbers have gone down in two major areas. Pursue justice for all and moral authority. Our shifting understandings of his role have affected his poll numbers enormously. It does get weighted in the court of historians opinion. If you are a math ways, go to cspan. Org the president s. All of the ratings are there. You can play with the survey results yourself by knocking off one of the categories and see what happens to the results. Have a little fun with it. I would like to thank you all for your attention and have you thanking brian for his questions. [applause] susan all five of us will be at the table if you would like your book signed by everybody. We are happy to accommodate it. Thank you to you and your colleagues for hosting us. The president s. From public affairs. Available now in paperback and ebook. Biographies of every president organized by their ranking by noted historians. From best to worst. And features perspective of our nations chief executives and leadership styles. Visit our website, cspan. Org the president , to learn more about each president and historian featured. Order your copy today. Wherever books and ebooks are sold. Next on the civil war, scott mingus, coauthor of targeted tracks, talks about the importance of the Cumberland Valley railroad during the civil war. This was a one track Railroad Running from hagerstown, maryland to harrisburg, pennsylvania. It was used to move union troops and supplies and was often under attack by Confederate Forces. The Gettysburg Heritage Center in pennsylvania hosted this talk. A little bit about our speaker. We have with us today scott mingus. I have known scott for a number of years but i really didnt know scott until i reviewed his bio that he sent to me. Surprisingly, he is a scientist and a consultant in the global pulp and paper industry. And he holds patents in selfadhesive postage stamps and barcode labels. I never knew that. He is an ohio native, graduate of miami university. While working for avery dennison, he was part of the Research Team that developed the first commercially successful selfadhesive postage stamp. He has written 20 civil war and underground railroad books. His biography of general William Smith won multiple awards, including the dr. James i. Robertson junior literary prize for confederate history. He has written several articles for the gettysburg magazine and other historical publications. Scott and his wife debby reside in york pennsylvania york, pennsylvania. Scott . Scott thanks for coming today. I want to talk a little about the role of the railroads in pennsylvania. I have written three books on the three railroads that ran between maryland and pennsylvania during the civil war. From east to west, the philadelphiawilmington and Baltimore Railroad which of course ran through those three key cities. The Northern Central Railway which ran from harrisburg down to baltimore, and the third key railroad between maryland and pennsylvania during the civil war, the Cumberland Valley railroad, the subject of our talk today. All three of those railroads were targeted by the army during by the Confederate Army during the civil war multiple times. Two had their bridges burned baltimore both in 1861 and again in 1864. In 1863, there were attacks on the northern central bridges. 31 destroyed in york county, pennsylvania. But perhaps no railroad in pennsylvania perhaps saw as many confederate incursions or attacks as the Cumberland Valley railroad, hence the title of our book, targeted tracks. This is the route of the Cumberland Valley. The Cumberland Valley railroad ran during the civil war years from harrisburg, pennsylvania to chambersburg. There, it met the Franklin Railroad, a subsidiary later owned by the Cumberland Valley railroad. In essence, the the cvrr will be consisting of the entire line of the Franklin Railroad that ran from hagerstown north to the susquehanna river. Now, the cvrrs president during the civil war years is named frederick watts. He is very important in the history of Pennsylvania State university, for those of you familiar with that college. He was one of the leading proponents of agricultural education in the United States, and is recognized in some quarters as the father of Pennsylvania State university. Long before that, he was the father of the Cumberland Valley railroad. He was one of the early proponents to get the railroad built. He served on the board of directors and later as the president of the railroad during the civil war and for several decades before and after. Frederick watts had a vision to turn the Cumberland Valley from a small, Regional Railroad to something nationally important. Little did he know that his entree into the National Scene would be the Confederate Army and the publicity his railroad would get. Probably the first time the cvrr plays any role in the conflict between north and south is during john browns raid on Harpers Ferry in 1862. Most of the raiders, including john brown himself, arrive on the Cumberland Valley railroad, having traveled through harrisburg. They set up their headquarters in downtown chambersburg. Ironically, in a boardinghouse owned by a widow of one of the abolitionist governors of pennsylvania. Governor joseph ritner. Mary ritners boardinghouse would see numerous people coming and going throughout the summer of 1859, including john brown. Frederick watts Frederick Douglass would come on the railroad as well. He would meet with john brown. Some accounts suggest john brown tried to sweettalk Frederick Douglass into joining the attack on Harpers Ferry. Doesnt do it, of course. Throughout the year, throughout the summer in particular, brown and his cohorts are bringing in large shipments of goods on the Cumberland Valley railroad. He calls himself dr. Isaac smith. He has been telling the good people of Cumberland Valley, he is a miner looking for possible iron ore mines. Hes been bringing in supplies, the bills of lading are things like picks and axes when in reality they are muskets and pikes. They were used to go down to maryland and set up headquarters at the kennedy farm, and then in october 1859, john brown and his men will raid. Some of the raiders after the raid come back to the Cumberland Valley and try to catch the railroad to get out of the valley. A number of of them a number of them are going to be captured near the Cumberland Valley railroad station in scotland, pennsylvania where some of the raiders are captured. One will manage to escape on the railroad and end up all the way in york, pennsylvania, where members of the underground railroad will smuggle a free black, osborn perry anderson, all the way to toronto, canada at that point. So this railroad, the cvrr, has a somewhat of a starcrossed background. It gained a lot of National Publicity for the role. Some of the members of the railroad are investigated as collaborators. Did they get involved with brown or not . But no charges could stick. In fact charges were never , brought, but it leads to speculation as to the railroads overall loyalty. Judge watts himself tends to be a middleoftheroad person. War begins and the clouds of war start with the election of abraham lincoln, the secession of a number of states and then war physically breaks out in april 1861 following the confederate bombardment of fort sumter. Judge watts goes to a political rally in carlisle and is in favor of the compromises that are trying to hold the union together, perhaps even allowing the south to keep slavery. His son is the most vocal person against the compromises, and he wants immediate abolition and immediate war against the south. Over time, the Cumberland Valley railroad sees they will become a critical part of the overall war effort. This is a quick snapshot. This is a small, Regional Railroad at the start of the war. They dont have a lot of hardware and equipment. Only 12 locomotives, four baggage cars, eight passenger cars and 79 freight cars. This is a onetrack Railroad Running from hagerstown to harrisburg through the heart of the Cumberland Valley. For those in the audience on television and locally, the Cumberland Valley is the name applied to the Shenandoah Valley here in southern pennsylvania. So the Cumberland Valley is very important, and this railroad moves a lot of freight, particularly iron ore, timber, coal, beef cattle, hogs, pork, things of that nature back to harrisburg for distribution around the country. This railroad has some fairly interesting pieces of Rolling Stock, one of which is the pioneer. The pioneer is one of the most powerful locomotives, built in 1851. By the time of the civil war, it is outdated. It is a lightweight locomotive really designed more for passenger service. And for relatively small, peacetime occupations. The railroad does not have a lot of heavy freight locomotives. They have a few, but typically they can handle no more than a fourcar passenger train, and some maximum speeds. They added two more of these things and a few freight engines by the time the war begins. Around the valley, they believe it is going to be a short war. Like most of the United States, these people are thinking they will win the war in 90 days. So young men throughout the Cumberland Valley will show up at the recruiting stations in places like carlisle, shippensburg, chambersburg of course, and they congregate at the cvrr stations and will be brought by train to harrisburg. The first unit to leave the Cumberland Valley is the chambers artillery. Now, they dont have cannons, but they certainly have enthusiasm at the start of the war. They will take off and headed on these bright yellow, very distinctive Railroad Cars of the cvrr. The cvrr took the most powerful locomotive it had at the time into harrisburg. The artillerymen immediately become infantry and form a company of the second pennsylvania, again a nine months regiment. This is the harrisburg station they went to. The harrisburg station housed four different railroads. It was one of the few railroad stations in the north that actually handled many different railroads. The lebanon Valley Railroad came in here. The northern central came in here from baltimore through york, as did the Pennsylvania Railroad that ran eastwest from pittsburgh to philadelphia. And, the, of course the Cumberland Valley railroad. At times, the station was pretty hectic. There are lots of accounts of people getting on the wrong train to the wrong destination because you have four distinctly different railroads serving it. The Cumberland Valley of course would remind people to get on the yellow cars. That will remind you to get on the right train. Well, a lot of the early traffic in the Cumberland Valley is distinctly related to the civil war. The cvrr will go down in history as one of the very first railroads ever used deliberately by the military of the United States to move troops into position. In 1861, Thomas Jackson later known as Stonewall Jackson has taken Harpers Ferry. He lingers for a while, and eventually will be superseded by Joseph Johnson, who takes command of the Confederate Forces at Harpers Ferry. Well, the yankees dont like this, because theres a lot of concern that from Harpers Ferry it is fairly easy to launch an invasion into the north, particularly pennsylvania. That is something pennsylvanians have been worried about very early in the war, because they of course are bordered by slave state maryland and slave state virginia, which at the very start of the war, neither of which are aligned with the confederacy yet, but there is significant concern in harrisburg that perhaps the state, commonwealth, as well as its vital railroads will end up being targets of the confederates. So they decide, lets go on the offense. They start recruiting pennsylvania soldiers and moving them into chambersburg, as a launching point for a potential first thrust in towards Harpers Ferry. Lets go after the confederates before the confederates can come after us. So the Cumberland Valley railroad is going to start bringing significant quantities, thousands, fresh, untrained Union Volunteers into chambersburg. Chambersburg becomes the Assembly Point for what later is going to be called the army of the shenandoah. Robert patterson, a relatively elderly gentleman who was a veteran of the war of 1812 is assigned command of these volunteers. He comes down in a brightly bedecked railroad car into chambersburg, with a band playing, has a parade on sunday night, which in those days having a parade on sunday wasnt something you did in chambersburg, pennsylvania. It was a very staid, very conservative town, and this guy shows up with marching bands and military escorts on a decked out train and assumes command of the troops in chambersburg and tells people that we are going on to virginia. Patterson, within a few days after this arrival, manages to get the troops semiorganized and begins to move troops south. The problem with that, jackson is in his way. Now, for those familiar with the campaign will know pattersons number one role, and all these volunteers, mostly pennsylvanians but from other states as well, their goal is to keep Joseph Johnson bottled up inside the Cumberland Valley, or Shenandoah Valley in this case. The mouth of the potomac river. It is a task patterson fails, miserably. Johnson is able to get his troops to manassas gap and ride the rails to manassas junction, and we all know the story. Johnsons men will arrive in time to correct the balance of the first battle of manassas and lead to a confederate victory. Now everyone realizes the war will not be over so quickly. You have all kinds of problems, and now they started raising troops for three years, for one year, for different terms of service, and the Cumberland Valley railroad brings the first group of boys home and starts shipping the second, larger groups out of the Cumberland Valley back into harrisburg to be recruited. Fast forward to 1862. All those rumors, the confederates are going to come to harrisburg, finally start apparently coming true. Rumors abound that the Confederate Army is marching on pennsylvania, late august, early september, 1862. The governor of pennsylvania, a republican, a close friend of the president of the United States abraham lincoln, he says we need troops. He calls out the Pennsylvania State militia. Pennsylvania has a standing militia before the war, but in general the governors prerogative is to activate the National Guard and raise these men into regiments to respond to emergencies. Now, they werent allowed to leave the commonwealth borders. It was only for the defense of pennsylvanians that you could activate this militia. So they are going to call and get thousands of these new state militiamen and the Cumberland Valley railroad will be pressed into service to bring them to chambersburg. This time, and by the way, general patterson left in an unmarked car without a military escort and snuck out of town in the middle of a very nondescript business day. The new officer in 1862 was a guy you might have heard of, john fulton reynolds. Reynolds takes command. Very militarylike, arrives on a train with troops into chambersburg, no pomp and circumstance, very businesslike. Reynolds takes charge of the Pennsylvania State militia. The militiamen are going to serve throughout the antietam campaign, the maryland campaign. They are not ever going to see combat, for which reynolds is somewhat grateful, not quite sure how the men will do, he confides in a letter to his sister in lancaster, pennsylvania about some of his doubts about the quality of the Pennsylvania State militia. Nevertheless, the militia doesnt have to fire a shot. They end up moving back through the cvrr. By the way, in those days the Cumberland Valley ran through downtown chambersburg, downtown greencastle, downtown through mechanicsburg, downtown shippensburg. The major hotels and businesses lined the railroad tracks. It was on the main street in most of these towns, and these boys in their soldier uniforms on the way to chambersburg and back to harrisburg, these boys are thrilled because the townspeople, particular the very pretty girls of the Cumberland Valley, turn out lavishly to cheer these men. In fact, at one point they go by the irving female academy, to which one soldier says, i think we need to stop the train right here and make this our camp the rest of the war. Well, they will obviously not stop at the irving female academy. But you can kind of see, these young men in blue are happy. They dont have to fight the rebels, the girls seem to like these guys and it is all good at that point in time. Well, just a few weeks later, another problem occurs. And by the way, this is reynolds letter to his sister basically saying theres nothing in the valley that will stop the rebels. That if the rebels want to come to harrisburg, in effect, we have a problem. Just a few weeks, a few days after reynolds makes the declaration, on the day after the battle of antietam is perhaps the cvrrs finest moment in the civil war. General mcclellan is out of 20 pound to 24pound ammunition and orders more from the arsenal in washington. Theyre going to load it up on the baltimore and ohio, take it to baltimore, and transfer it to northern central. The northern central will leave baltimore, and the train of ammunition will arrive in hagerstown in four hours, 31 minutes. And i cant do that today on the highways, with all the traffic, but you could do it back in those days. This train, loaded with incredibly explosive ammunition, careens at speeds up to 54 mile per hour, on tracks never designed for cars going more than 40 miles per hour, and the standard working speed for a Freight Train in those days was 20 to 25 miles per hour. You are doubling that. It is so bad, some of these ammunition cars get so hot that they worry about them catching on fire. They have to stop twice and physically cool the train off, so it will not catch on fire. Anybody can guess what a boxcar of ammunition would have done in downtown carlisle, pennsylvania . It wouldnt have been pretty. So, anyhow, in stunning example of mcclellans generalship in those days, he doesnt need the ammunition. Even though the railroaders risked their lives and set new speed records for the fastest route the cvrr has or ever will run during the civil war, not a single one of these ammunition rounds is fired at the confederates during the maryland campaign, at least up to that point in time. But, it becomes known as the amazing antietam ammunition run. It is the finest hour. The finest hour, gets a lot of National Press. They are really happy. Andy militiamen start coming back, reynolds starts bringing them back and the darkest hour for the railroad soon follows. On december 26, heavy fog along the susquehanna river, a train barreling through the fog filled with the 20th volunteer militia from philadelphia smashes into the bridgetending locomotive called the utility and 30 soldiers are killed or permanently maimed. Now the Cumberland Valley is in the National Press again, but not for a reason they want. It is one of the worst losses of u. S. Soldiers at that point in the civil war, on civilianrun railroads. That will change. Unfortunately, they will be worse tragedies yet to come. Watts was terrified about the possible legal ramifications of whats going on, and more importantly, the last of potentially lucrative military business, buys off most of the survivors and manages to avoid any legal reality and the cvrr keeps their contract. That is september 26. The cvrr has another problem looming, and that problems name is jeb stuart. Just four weeks later after the disaster at bridge point where the utility slammed into the train, jeb stuart comes to pennsylvania. What else would he be doing . You can see the map on the screen, the location of mcclellans army still sitting pretty much idle in maryland doing very little. Stuart decides im going to break apart the cvrr, the main supply line besides the baltimore and ohio that will feed mcclellans army. Of the two, the more vulnerable is the cvrr, so he takes three brigades of calvary and comes across the masondixon line into chambersburg. He will end up wrecking the cvrr at chambersburg. They will destroy the turntable and destroy most of the offices and whatever Rolling Stock is still there. All the warehouses around the train station. Chambersburg sees flames on the north side of town for hours and hours and hours as the area immediately around the railroad station burns to the ground. Now, hes going to go on. Hes heard from locals, the bridge is made from iron and cant be burned. He believes the story and hears the state militia is coming after him and then that the Union Regulars are coming after him, so he will head towards gettysburg. He comes within six miles of gettysburg in october of 1862 before he turned south and heads back into virginia. That raid by stuart alarms the railroads in pennsylvania. They realize exactly how vulnerable they are. They have already lost bridges, now Rolling Stock, and the confederates have proven a wellplanned raid can reach the very heart of some of these northern railroads. Some of the photographs taken of the confederates. They raid the warehouses first, and then burn chambersburg, so Rolling Stock and warehouses. This is what the town wouldve looked like an 1862, as stuarts men arrived. Governor curtin is alarmed by this and frantically starts dispatching with washington about how can the Cumberland Valley be better protected. In 1863, the railroad has another problem. They rebuilt the depot, rebuilt the warehouse, rebuilt the turntable, just about everything, just in time for the gettysburg campaign. And the confederates come back to pennsylvania again. Now instead of jeb stuart, it is alfred Gallatin Jenkins from the West Virginia area. He will lead his calvary into chambersburg and they will start raiding the railroads and find out the scotland bridge is not made of iron. It is made of wood. We can burn it, and they do. And they destroy the largest bridge southwest of the susquehanna river along the cvrr. On the way, from greencastle all the way to scotland, jenkins and his men are destroying railroad tracks, burning railroad buildings. They are working on the small bridges, the culverts and small little facilities that line the tracks as well. They devastate the Franklin Railroad from hagerstown north, and the cvrr, the parent company, all the way into the heart of the Cumberland Valley. One more time, they governor organize the state militia under curtins direction. They bring the boys back, and the state militia start riding the rails to get in position. But in the meantime the cvrr sees a massive influx in ticket sales, because refugees from hagerstown, refugees from the Shenandoah Valley, refugees from southern pennsylvania are jumping on the trains and trying to put the susquehanna river between them and robert e. Lee. And so the ticket sales are quite strong, and hundreds and hundreds of refugees, many of them africanamericans, are coming into chambersburg to try to escape the onslaught of the oncoming rebels. Assuming they are really coming to pennsylvania. Well, the state militia, Pennsylvania State militia is not very wellorganized. Governor curtin has asked for 10,000 volunteers from new jersey and new york, so a number of
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