Hello. Can you hear me. Good evening. A little bit of housekeeping. Please silence your cell phones. We dont want them to ring while david king is talking. Also, cspan is filming us. Later in the question and answer portion, if you would please go to the microphone at this side so you can be heard. Also after the event, before the signing, if you would please take your chairs and lean them against something solid, just help us make this store orderly looking again. Ok. At the time when there is a growing sense of unease among sensible people is of the rise of fascism, it is important to look toward the past and analyze the conditions that made fascism possible. We turn toy past. Ians for the murky one such scholar, david king, is with us. He is a professor who once taught european history at the university of kentucky. A New York Times best selling writer, he has written several best selling books. He is here to reach was from his the beer hall putsch, called as one with a great recurrence of order. And joseph, the author of the , this is a crucial and often overlooked chapter. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Please let us welcome him. David king. [applause] prof. King wow. Thank you very much. Thank you. Can everyone hear me ok . To roaming when i talk. Im kind of chained to the podium. Thank you very much. Its a pleasure to be here. We are coming out. And i brought my family. Very special guest over here. Very special guests over here. What a wonderful bookstore here. Its an honor to be here. Imagine for a moment catching adolf hitler alive and hauling him into a courtroom and putting. Im on trial for his crimes this is sometimes a dream. Sometimes a premise for a fantasy. Many novels have been written about this. Happened in february 26, 1924. A few months ago in november, he air andpistol into the declared the National Revolution had begun. It did not begin. Hitlers eventually was arrested and actuallyout stayed in the attic of a germanamerican woman. Wrote an incredible memoir about hit where cap hitler , her guest. Became a laughingstock. The New York Times announced his career being over, and it probably should have been over. What happened . It may not be what you think. It certainly was not what i thought when i started researching this. I just finished my previous book. Theres a serial killer on the loose. True story. It was gruesome. Ironically i was looking for something a little less dark. List of history topics. Every book i write seems to get longer rather than shorter. I would go down one rabbit hole to the next. One wild goose chase after the next. I was probably amusing and exasperating my wife. A crazy person. All the while the topic was in front of me. One of my favorite lectures i used to give when i taught was on the beer hall putsch. In my swedish motherinlaw. That was the premise of the book. I thought, this is something really interesting, not just economic, but social, cultural, psychological ordeal. The Exchange Rate was 4. 2 marks to a dollar on the eve of of world war i. By december 1918, it was eight to one and that he goes 10 to 1, 15 to 1, 101, 1001, a million to one. It eventually goes down to hundreds of millions and the trillions. Your life savings. Munich costs 10 billion marks. That is what i originally thought out. Been about 30 years and i thought the story had a lot going for it. It was the city at a turning point. You had sweeping action, the drama, the melodrama, the apocalypse. And you have these conspirators plotting revolution. You have a young adolf hitler, rudolf hess, rosenberg, many, many others. They were all young, all in munich at this time. Said, you would learn about somebody. You could use this beer hall putsch, i thought, to understand munich at the time. What a sophisticated culture and city. Romantics, bohemians. Munich,uld happen in who was safe . That is how i went into it. I could not believe there had not been a book and 30 years. I was struck a something else. All these wonderful books, the ,cholarship about adolf hitler there had never been a book on beach ryle, a full book on the trial in the english language. At web the first books i read about hibbler as a teenager, and oxford professor at the nuremberg trials, an expert on thucydides. A classicist. That she was always impressed with hitlers during the trial. Thered never been a book. I could not believe it. I was astonished. Has been a dealbreaker for me many times. Theres not enough good, credible sources. I have never done historical fiction, so i would be lost. Out that this was a gold mine. Transcript itself is a mustread thousand pages. The original german transcript. The Munich Police files. Thousands and thousands of pages here. Interviews andhy interrogations. Anyone they could catch. Offered rosenberg, heinrich hoffman. Many, many people. Offices,ted with the the inventories of everything they took. You can picture the paintings on the wall. There were the pictures of the two gypsies. There were the bicycles. It was like pompeii. All of that was there. The damage to the beer hall. We had the papers of the lawyers and one of my favorites was the prosecutor. Impressed. Among other things. Thugs and hooligans were coming in. There was, of course, hate mail. Also in munich, there were the hate mails of the prosecutor. Afterre the prosecutor go somebody. A graph of hibblers hitler s bodyguard. He jumped in front of hibbler. On and on and on. Hitler. In front of is blaming people, like ludendorff for the failure. She gets a plumber, so the plan was to throw some blankets and tarp over it. Did not go for that. Other writings. The letters of goerings wife karin, who is swedish. She wrote home to her family in sweden. This was fun. You have to concentrate 100 . Reading is one thing. You could insult somebody. But there were letters describing his time. In the offers he had meantime. And a jewish family, how a kind jewish family saved goering after he got shots. Files, theree nazi were all these interviews with stormtroopers, the u. S. Army captured this. And they brought it back to germany. There were copies at home. He claimed to live across from hibbler. He did later on. He cling to live across from hitler. He did later on. Files at the nuremberg fleamarket. Prison director of the was robbed. That was a wonderful surprise. It opened in the former dining hall of the military academy because they could not have a room big enough to secure it. Nothing like that in germany for years. A team of judges. Reporters from all over germany, france, switzerland, britain, scandinavia, elsewhere to cover the sensational trial, scandalous. And hitler would take the stand, hour defendant, speak after hour. Hes not quite shrieking. But he did get lots of press. The press cover this in great detail. How he would speak, how he would move. And if you ever heard hitler when he is not screaming, its unsettling. He is a screaming lunatic. He is speaking, just lowering his voice. Its pretty frightening. But that hitler. Up close, across the room, hitler in all of his narcissism, his megalomania, his mesmerizing demagoguery. Knickerbocker said he was probably the greatest spellbinder of all he said actually in his memoir he was number two. The one person who was a better speaker than hitler was leon trotsky. In all hisler confidence, under pressure,. Cting in the spotlight we have ruthless activity. He did not want the truth to stand in the way of a good line. Thee were Seven Members in act room. In the back room. And he says in the trial, its not true. He did not have millions. One of the nazi workers, there not exactly millions. So, hibbler would take the crowd into a world of alternative facts. All the while he exploited the lower instincts of the crowd. This is not theater, the judge would say many times. He spoke thanks to the presiding judge who had his own reasons. It asdge always looked at this ardent nationalist and he was. I do not want to spoil it. He had stuff going on. That, hibbler was speaking to the biggest audience he had ever had. It was not just a beer hall in munich. Courtroom. All of germany and the world. This would be his first major and he uses it to spread a mythology about himself and this is an incredible moment in history in many ways. Treason. High he did not deny it. In fact, he bragged about it. Lengthy prison sentence. All, hibbler was not german. The law said he should be deported. There were day by day glowing reviews. There was less and less. You could still see reporters ts,elling hitler with two or new zealand, when he is bragging about his military background, lt. Col. Hitler. Himirony of thinking about like that. These mistakes would be less and less common as the trial goes on. End, hitler is more and more powerful. Hes not this buffoon who botched the putsch. Hise turns the tables on accusers. I am not the trader im not the traitor. Its the government. Itors in the government. They will write the semi autobiographical manifesto mein trial and would use the as the basis for some of it and rebuild his party, which had fallen into squabbling factions. During this latest period of the putsch, the trial of hitler is not just a sensational, terrific many reporters noted at the time it was a catastrophe. He was not locked up as the lot required. He was as the log required. He was not supported. Was even on, hitler parole when he went to the beer hall. He was already on parole. So, he gets out. They thought that there were no more effective ways to undermine the constitution. Thank you. [applause] prof. King does anybody have any questions yucca any questions . Yes. Questions. Let me ask a question. Im from the caribbean. Netherlands. In there was still a tremendous rage at that time. , those who were involved in some resistance. This leaves a few questions. A bookst question is has been published, 10 or 15 years ago now about the german legal system, that the german legal system started in the netherlands. But the premise of the book is the german legal system from the underminedhad been with profound antisemitism and it was basically there to be had by the coming nazis. That is the first question. The second question is how hitler uses a lot of the modeling that was going on in ,he United States in germany right . The violence against the etc. Ities, etc. , as r as he develops his political programs, right . And ultimately, the last one he never won the majority of the popular vote in germany. He got rid of the parliament. He got enough of the parliament to be able to gain a follower. How do you see these issues playing out and leading to the figure of hitler . Danger of a potential not exactly hitler, but somebody like hitler coming to power again . Thank you. Prof. King ooh, yeah. Definitelyisemitism , i think also one of the problems we have with the weimer system is, when they were making judges who the enforced the laws were still monarchists. It was very much oldstyle never reallyand came to terms with this republic. Dea it was germanys first republic. The weimar republic. Fragile, wrecked from within even as hitler comes to power. Never having the popular vote. I think thats one thing we see here. There was a statistician writing in the 1920s who had reviewed many cases and the german legal system. The vast majority would be let basically with a slap on the wrist. If you compare it to suspects on the left who were far fewer, i have a lot of them in the book. You can see. They would have much harsher sentences. 10 or 12 years. They talked about how the legal system was this wellspring for the third reich because of the there is a system i can refer you to. They kept a lot of that. Comes in, one of the things he does, he goes five years with the Peoples Court institution in munich at the time and they will recreate the Peoples Courts. He wont let them talk. Defend ast let them he was loved do when he just would talk and talk and talk. As he was allowed to do when he would just talk and talk and talk. I think you raise a lot of questions about the antisemitism and the challenges they would have. A followup to what you just said im a lawyer among other things. What was it that gave hibbler. Uch an advantage you have a lot of people talking and howe third right him third reich and how important it was that people cooperated with its . There was something about the legal system that made the totalitarianism hobbits easier of it easier. Had. T in with what they what was it about the law . I think there are a couple things. The way that it worked at the time, the defendant would be allowed to talk, question witnesses. And hibbler will do that. And hitler will do that. The judge will be criticized by a lot of people behind the scenes for not taking more control of the situation, allowing him to speak on and on and on. He said, well, i wanted to make he was like, well, i wanted them to present their case to the people. The judge at this time is working with that. They also have these closed sessions you go into. In fact, there is even a trial held behind closed doors. A lot of the trial will be held behind closed doors. A lot of the transcripts in 1924, they dont have access to these closed doors, but the germans in the 1990s published a wonderful addition. The transcript has the closed sessions. Ployis another strategic they will be working with. You make your case behind a closed door session. And i have a lot band they have a lot and they have a lot to hide because of the versailles treaty. Germany seems like an almost unguarded arms dump. France had these very strict rules on what you could have after the war, 100,000 people, limit to everything. They are hiding these things, the guns. Hitler hid in a fraternity society. They dont want this out. The french are following this. The french papers are wonderful sources for this because they expected this all along. They had all these patriotic societies, a bit like the stormtroopers. They were helping the army. They were able to help shield these weapons. That is another thing they have to guard. They dont want that to come ou t. They dont want the involvement of the bavarian government to come out. Judge is trying to protect, exactly. Thank you. The way i understand it is the featured speaker at the beer hall was to be ludendorff, not hitler. Hitler claimed he was like the drummer for ludendorff. You may have a different view on this. My question is how did hitler sortace ludendorff as the of leader of germany . Great questions. The speaker the night of the beer hall was going to be the general state commissioner, who is almost he was appointed. The german currency was going crazy. This was at the height of that. They appointed this guy, gave him strong executive powers leaning on the dictatorial side. He was going to speak. We have a found invitation to the beer hall that night when he was going to speak. Him thatf, he had seen afternoon. Hitler will show up because hitler will send three or four people out to bring him in. Onendorff will always deny, of the famous generals of world war i, the far right, one of the one of the best generals ever. He comes in, he pretends not to be associated. Some major hitler biographers, he will be described coming in in his uniform. Becausecivilian clothes he has a cover encase all goes wrong. In case all goes wrong. He seems to cover his bases very well. Right, there is another transition here because ludendorff was an idol to the far right for a lot of reasons. Ae right, he is seen more of National Hero at the beginning. As the trial goes on, ludendorff does not come out very well compared to hitler. If you see the press reports, you see the ludendorff trial first. You start to see hitler replacing him. Hitler will take the responsibility. He is like, yeah, i did this, i take over spots ability. They say take responsibility. They say ludendorff is blaming everyone except himself. Come across one french communist newspaper is having a ball with ludendorff. He does not come out well at all. Ludendorff will run for office after this band it is a disaster. And it is a disaster. I am also under the impression that ludendorff at one time had a nervous breakdown before the arms was signed and advised the kaiser to end the war. Undermine use that to ludendorff . He will definitely see ludendorff you will definitely see ludendorff with this breakdown. It is interesting watching hitler at the trial ludendorff is getting hammered in the press because of his statements. Does this seem like a general . He seems more like a cadet. Some said no, he doesnt seem like a cadet, he seems like an ass. He goes on the stand and is blaming germans problems on the catholics, the marxists, and the jews. Somebody says well, okay, that covers a lot of people. Hitler will walk this balanced line. There is this great german socialist paper who had a great becausen my opinion, ludendorff is this loose cannon. Instead of alienating people, he distanced himself from ludendorff. A one point he goes, i am catholic, hitler says. He makes no mistake saying he is antisemite. He makes that clear in the trial and marxist. But he is uniting the far right in a way where ludendorff is dividing them. Is the see one part use nietzsche and other figures. Some are anticatholic and antichristian, and you have this other side of the far right. Hitler is trying to unite them while ludendorff is appealing to a small part of the far right. You can watch them go down as hitler is going up during the trial. Historians say the japanese political assassination by the military and exoneration at their trial started the second world war. Did you see any parallels between those trials and japan and this trial . I dont know a whole lot about the japanese trial. I read nuremberg and was looking at trials, but i dont know a lot about i have a couple books at home on that trial, but i wouldnt know enough about it to say about the japanese trial. A couple things. If the worldwide depression patent occurred hadnt occurred, do you think the nazis could have taken power . And this is hard to judge, but dont you think antisemitism in germany was far less than that in france, russia, and Eastern Europe . In the 19th century and prehitler. The first one it is always hard to say what could have happened if it didnt. It is hard to imagine hitler in power without the depression. Without it, you would be getting into alternative history, so it is hard to say. Without the depression, it is almost unthinkable in some ways, hitler coming to power. You can see that with the 1923 trial. The nazi already does very well doese Election Party very well in the election in 1924. They are losing a lot when the economy is getting better. They go way down again and then it takes the depression for the nazis to get the most votes they will ever get. It would be hard to deny that myself. What was the second question . Antisemitism in germany opposed to eastern russia and france prehitler. It would be a guess going into the late 19th century. I would go back to the lectures we did on austria, france, germany, but i didnt really look into a lot that clearly from the trial. I have Great Respect for someone who takes it on their whole life. This is one year. Looking back to the late 19th century id have to think about it. I dont know off the top of my head. I have a guess, but i dont know myself to say how much worse it is. And austria i mean, austria had the National Socialists well before the germans. A lot of the germans were looking elsewhere. A lot of the nazi Party Members were not even german. Egypt, it was in america for a long time. A lot of the same people we think of, a lot of them were coming in from the baltics, marching arm in arm with hitler. A lot of the nazis at this time had national roots. With munich being such a guessal center, i would germany is far behind a lot of these places, especially like in the east in austria and france. I would have to research a little better before i said. That would be my hunch, so i think you are right about that. In liberal democracies we have the problem of what we do with extremists that dont directly engage with violence. Did hitler at this point directly engage in acts of violence . If he did, why didnt they throw the book at him . He did engage in violence. He used violence. Encouraged storm troopers to go out and brawl. The first people that signed up for the storm troopers are the people he beat up. That is what he said. That was always his claim. He went out in big fights and the first people we beat up will show up first the next time. Dont come out. You go into fight and you dont go out unless they carry you out. He wanted to win the streets. That was one way to win the streets, through intimidation. When they have the trial with so much security, they are afraid the storm troopers will try to spring everybody out. Using violence. That is what got him in trouble. He attacked a rival speaker in the beer hall. He attacked a guy. He thought that was great publicity. Us f they are praising they are writing about us. It is getting us known. We have time for two more questions. They understanding is National Government in germany was a socialist government. Did the relationship between that government and the government in munich have any affect on how strong this is prosecuted . Yes. Because a big dispute, the trial should have never been in munich. There wereourt a lot of problems with the trial. Mark constitution weimar constitution was established, these courts in munich shouldnt exist anymore. You can read the letters of correspondence. There was a special court that had been created for these traitors against the republic. The trial should have taken place there, but it is in munich. A lot of people go, why is it in munich . It should not be in this court. It definitely should not be in munich. It seems like a compromise. You can read the Cabinet Meeting minutes. Are sitting back and forth, just as they are trying to kick out hitler. At one point austria accepts him , then refuses to take him. You see this with berlin and veria, and bavaria, a huge rivalry. In the beer hall, when hitler barges in, he is upsetting their plans to go against berlin. So they are upset like that. You can follow along in the book, but it plays until this into this rivalry between berlin and bavaria that complicates the trial. It is illegal. I just want to congratulate you on the book. I wrote a book a year and a half ago around the same topic, not concentrating only on the trial. This is now the definitive book on this topic, folks. [laughter] i have read most of it. I have read the 12 pages of notes on sources in great detail. Davids research is phenomenal. It is a prodigious of work. I was out of breath reading the notes on sources. I understand you spent five years on it. I spent a year and a half. Yours is a fabulous book, too. This is the first book written in english on the trial. There has never been a regular fullsized book written in german of this trial. This is the book now in english or german or any other language. I read most of it. It takes you day by day through the trial and the rest. So congratulations. [applause] i really appreciate that. That was very kind. Can i say one thing . I have a comment. No, not a question. When you ask germans today, how many jews lived in germany before the war . Do you know what the answer is . Like 20 . In the 1940s, it is less than 1 . There is a paper by my colleagues 10 years ago that the in germany went down is because there were very few jews there. That is a comment. That is all. Thank you. Thank you to everybody for coming out. [applause] [indistinct chatter] if you want to buy the book, we are selling them at the register. [indistinct chatter] announcer history bookshelf features the countrys bestknown American History writers of the past decade talking about their books. You can watch our weekly series at 4 00 p. M. Eastern here on American History tv on cspan3. On americanext, history tv, the president and ceo of George Washingtons mount vernon appears in the Virginia EstatesEducation Center with a lifesize replica of washington. He traces the first president s military career from the french and indian war through the American Revolution while also taking questions from viewers. This program originally livestreamed on facebook and youtube and is part of a series of Online Events intended to keep visitors connected with mount vernon during its closure to the public because of the coronavirus pandemic. Mr. Bradburn here we are again. Welcome back to mount vernon. My name is doug bradburn