Transcripts For CSPAN3 Oral Histories Benjamin Schleider Interview On 6th Armored Division In... 20240713

Experiences with the sixth Armored Division in european theater, including fighting in the battle of the bulge. Mr. Slater served as an aide and shared stories about patton. The National World War Ii Museum conducted this interview in 2009 for its oral history collection. 2009. Is august 5, thomas with the National World War Ii Museum. Today i am with Esther Benjamin schleider. For the record, please state your full name. Olafchleider benjamin schleider. Were reborn . Mr. Schleider texas. When were you born . One of the things i remember is, my grandfather, who was a very successful is businessman, was nra, theppy with the National Coverage at recovery act. He had a lot of choice words to say about that. I also remember, we had some tom operations in addition the business my father was in. To,we had to kill cattle for some reason, it was part of the program. And it was very distressing to my family to have cattle killed. We tried to process as much of the meat as possible. And preserve it. Course, we were very frugal. I came from a family that was very german. Had comeal grandfather from germany. And done well as a businessman. He and my father went into business together. Things i always mused about was my father making the payroll for the family business. On saturdaye home and tell my mother that, well, weve made the payroll. He was very proud of the fact that they never missed the. Ayroll during the depression they tried very hard to keep the employees. One of the things that was important to him was continued employment, because he was very, very loyal to him, and they to him. And he sold his business, he sold to a man who agreed to maintain the employees, and some of them are still in that business, which is still going. But, it was a hard time and we finances,of on our things of that sort. Besides cattle, what else did you have . Was it strictly cattle . Mr. Schleider the business was not cattle, the business was a very prosperous, at one time, mercantile business and a saloon. The saloon, of course, was closed when prohibition became the law of the land. There were other things about theression that were limits on things we could do. We didnt take vacations, things of that sort. But, we all got along well. What were you doing before the war broke out . Mr. Schleider well, i was in in mayhool and graduated 1939. Course, in september 1939 the war began. Started at texas a m college in the fall of 1939. On i was involved with the war until the end of the war. Indirectly or directly. Did you join the are the rotc . Mr. Schleider yes. At the time what to a m, we a core, all, it was men, all military. It provided lots of officers for the service. And still does. That has large core been maintained since 1876. How long did you attend anam . M . A and we graduated earlier because we went the last year of our college careers, 12 months. Or, two years and 12 months. Two years of college, and 12 months. That is very accelerated. [laughter] so, what happened next . Graduation,r on one night, and the next morning the entire class came down to Houston Armed forces recruiting , andon to take physicals everybody that past was sworn into the army as corporals. We didnt get to go to summer camp, so we had to go to our branch ocs. Where was the ocs . Mr. Schleider there were different ones. I happen to go to artillery. Quartermaster, those of the primary ones. Tank destroyer. That was a new branch in the army by then. Where did you end up going . Mr. Schleider i went to the artillery school. And how was it . Was it challenging compared to your previous military channing training . Mr. Schleider we had an edge over i think we had an edge over people who did not have military experience. Limited exposure. We had four years of artillery,nd it was primarily updates wringing us current on the doctrine that was being practiced in the field. The first things we did were firing and it was a 16 week course. Class of 63with my on may 6, 1943. Where did you go after . Campchleider i went to roberts, california. There i had, we were asked for sources four choices. I selected armored artillery, which put me in the sixth Armored Division at camp cook, california, which is now Brandenburg Air Force base. So you are transferred after that . Mr. Schleider i was transferred to the sixth and remained with the sixth throughout the war, in different categories. Ask how long did you stay at camp cook . How long did you stay at camp cook . Mr. Schleider i got there in the fall of 1943, and we left there in january of 1944. Did you travel to go to the east coast . Mr. Schleider we went by trains, troop trains from camp cook to camp shanks, new york. Was in new york, but it was right across the line from new jersey. Human distant you disembark from there . We left the 44th street. We left the 44th street pier in new york. And traveled by a convoy of ships to glasgow, scotland. Did you have evasive maneuvers . Mr. Schleider we work pretty well secured. Recall. Us 11 days, as i at one point there was a change, because part of the convoy went to the south of england, and we continued north to glascow. Remember, we had some pretty rough weather. I was fortunately not seasick, us the queen mary would pass coming and going. [laughter] she would come over the horizon and be gone in two hours. But she had no escort and 20 or 30 knots faster than submarines. She had no escort, but we had a battleship escort and several destroyers. One, small aircraft carrier. You are well protected . Mr. Schleider yeah, we were. We got one alert, as i recall. Very heavy weather, because we were in the north atlantic, close to iceland, then ducked down towards scotland. So you landed in glascow . Mr. Schleider right. Where did you go from there . Mr. Schleider we were put on troop trains and went to england, a very colorful area. In Artillery Battalion i was was in a little place called finstock, right in the heart of the cotswold. They are a very distinct village. Construction like england, all of the areas have a different type of construction, and that always fascinated me. These were limestone cottages, and the villages were you to flee situated. , ourd a lot of hiking compass routes and so forth. Where did you go from there . Mr. Schleider we were in the cotswold. All of thet, division officers, this was about the first week, or shortly after the first week, assembled , near the town , forrton in the marsh indoctrination by general patton. He did this with all of the divisions that were coming into the third army. As they arrived, he would let them get settled and then he would address them. Have an assembly of their officers. A pep talk. I remember this one very vividly. I dont know whether you want me to go into that, but it was raining and it was 600 officers about who had assembled as planned. We patton to address, and were all at attention as general growth, the Division Commander, and general patton arrived. Both, cavalry uniforms both were cavalrymen. They, you know, am i off . Cut me off . Sorry. Mr. Schleider got a little allergy today. General grove had a booming voice. He called us to attention and had built a special platform for patton to use for his address. Andthey climbed up on that, gentlemen, i introduce to you general george s patton. And patton got up to the microphone and he says, anybody who wants to get there their down wept sit can sit down. We later learned. You know, i did not bring you over here to get killed, we brought you over here to kill germans. You dont have to die for your country, we want you we want them to die for theirs. All kinds of things of the sort. He says, when we get to france it was a real peptalk like you would heal in high school. Here in high school. Days,xt couple of chaplains were offended by his language. Grove andith general said that they should support his actions, his language report his actions, his language. Was careful, but he assured them that general patton was a good commander, a good leader, because he knew patton quite well. And he talked them out of taking any action. The thing smoothed over. That always was an impressive incident. [laughter] assigned to you general grove . Mr. Schleider in april i thought i was going to be courtmartialed, but we had gone out on a night problem, maybe getting in something you dont want to get involved with. It was a compass problem, in blackout. We got back and they did not have coffee or anything. I find out there was some doughnuts in the Division Artillery mass, so i got the screwdriver and got a lock off, went in there, and got them all doughnuts. I got called on the carpet for that, and i thought i was told to report to division headquarters. And i thought, my lord, im going to be courtmartialed. I met with the tier one and he said, i am interviewing you. Senior aide is going to some other assignment. Would you be interested in being aid . Al groves i was so relieved, i said oh my god, yes. [laughter] several days passed and they finally decided they wanted me to come on board. As i was leaving, my Battalion Commander said, slider, i want to tell you, you go to work for that old man you will get killed a lot sooner than you will be as a forward observer in this battalion. I remember that. A very interesting thing, working for general grove. He was a teacher. Like, you his aides are important to me and i want you to know as much about the army as you can. Do thingse, he would like, he wanted to take a ride on an experiment to see how gliders operated. So he took me along. He would do things like that. I made a glider run with one of the british writers. Riders. We did lots of travel down to wales. On one occasion patton came down, we had a live firing problem. Patton came and stayed with us, just he and his driver for couple of days. So polite, quiet. He and general grove had a lot to talk about. Were both old cavalrymen. Commanded the original Armored Division, which must strangely enough, was named the second Armored Division. Not the first. Grove was his operations officer. And was very well regarded by patton. That, for wanton of a better word, hatched a lot of very prominent generals, particularly in armor. Grove ultimately left that as a lieutenant colonel, and end up committing the sixth armored as a major general. Commanding the sixth armored as a major general. Reputation. Mr. Schleider i would say he was a front line. Respect from the troops . Mr. Schleider oh, i think so. If he and general patton had the same philosophy. They never wanted to find a commander in his command post, they wanted to go down to the firing units and see them. Many times, patton came down understand, itu was an intervening headquarters between the division and Army Headquarters. ,atton would always come down trying to inspect us or talk to grove, or see something he thought was worth talking to grove about. It was interesting that growth was frequently conferred with. I dont think this is something that, probably im not putting it well, but i think a lot of commanders and core commanders would like to get gross idea about some contemplated operation. Because he was a real leader. Fundamental armor mechanized division. In the 1930s. He was a groundup man, and he thoughtful of his troops. Phenomenalbsolute comprehension of terrain. That, no doubt, when he was in the cavalry on the texas border, when he had a sergeant who went undercover as mining engineers checking u. S. Topographic maps of northern mexico. Do a map study in his pointrs, and go out and to the names of the hills and the elevations. He was phenomenal. A greatas it was education to be with him in map reading. Among other things. But he talked to us about tactics and things, what he wanted to do, and what he thought our operations would be. It was a great learning experience. What was your First Military assignment . Your first invasion . Mr. Schleider im not sure i comprehend. Im pretty sure i dont comprehend. Onks tell me about landing utah beach. Tell me about landing on utah beach. Mr. Schleider it was an overnight run from southhampton. Grove never missed the trick. Couple of landing ship tanks that were docked and we needed ships to get our division over. Lollylogging, and he got them loaded with our people, kind of shanghaied them. It was no longer hostile landing. Want to think, the 18th of july, 1944. Landing, lst stayed offshore. G4 and i went along and Landing Craft to contact the landing officer at the beach, who was a colonel eugene caffe. Bright engineer fellow. German block house on a bluff and we went up and reported. There was a personal incident that embarrassed me. I walked in with the general and the staff and took off my headgear, laid it on the bunk. Caffrey came unglued and chastised me for putting a helmet on a bunk. He says, its horrible bad luck. I guess he was an irishman. Embarrassed, being chewed out by a colonel in front of my general. Everybody else laughed. [laughter] we got our instructions and moved the division. Coast of theest peninsula. Barneyville, i will never forget. We were behind the 79th Infantry Division. It was planned that when the time came we would be used to make a run down the west coast , through the 70 night 79th division. Tell me more about operations. Did you come in heavy resistance . Mr. Schleider before that, the thing that impressed me, to this day, was on the 25th of july, general billy wyche invited general grove and the 70 night, was in contact with the enemy. Me,ted us to join him, not to watch the bombing of bombing from a hill to the east of the 79th possession. , and thewent to bombing was ferocious. Tremendous bombing. Of course, as you know or may recall, there were a number of casualties. [coughing] it was a controversial bombing. Ive always been interested in a history of it that followed. Linedid dislodge the substantially, which was a road center. Bradleyt army under attacked south. The 27th. Off at and on thesouth, the third army became operational. And the 21st army group became operational. Bradley became commander of the 21st army group, which had the first army and third army. Attacked. It was an interesting experience. One night after we had gotten was a very key point. It was a River Crossing. It was a road center. A great deal of road convergence. A major objective, and we it and went into an Assembly Area southeast of the city. The germans were hampering,topping or bombed and dropped a lot of chandelier flares for bomb target acquisitions. For identification. The fourth Armored Division, which was to our left at the time, left or right, started firing a lot of antiaircraft fire. Grove put on an order that said, do not fire. So, we set there in the moonlight and the chandelier flares. Everyone stayed quiet. Theever got a strike, but fourth armored get the hell bombed out of them, as i understand. Got the held bombed out of them, as i understand. Then we kept going. In a villageush called bree. Averwas the main road from anch into brittany. A group,ns ambushed which i was in, which i was in, and we had some casualties, but got out of it ultimately. Headed south and, heading for brest. That was our mission. Tell me about that mission. A lot of forces . Benjamin no. I was in a light tank. This was hedge row country. The hedge rows were on each side. The hedge row would be about even with that mantle. Then there would be agitation on top of it. Vegetation on top of it. Little defenses. There was infantry behind that with machine guns. They had on the railroad crossing, which was about 50 yards ahead, they had a 88 limeter gun, very cleverly we found out along the level of the tecracks. As our people were coming up or down the hill, they would hit them with artillery. The artillery battery was in front of me and they got badly hit. We were speeding like crazy after we realized this is an ambush, trying to beat it out from the guns. It caught my tank with a bazooka. Ultimately got on fire and we had to evacuate and i lost the sergeant. Had thought had four fellows in a jeep following me. We went around the gun at the railroad. Headquarters, to got our transportation back. You . Joe with benjamin i had taken the tank in front of him. They saw what was going on and did not go forward. It was in the command part of the armored car. I feel like i miss read a signal i misread a signal. That is why i went on ahead. Sergeants was signaling me to go forward. I had been following the command car. Instead when i saw that he pulled over, stopped, wanted me to go on. General probably told him to go on. I misunderstood. He says he was trying to stop me. But i made a terrible mistake. Lived with it. Me more about going on the way to brest. , that waswe made that about 250 miles out from where we turned the corner. Brest was. And we were in a true exploitation mission. There were no really solid lines, but there were a lot of german units that were crossing back and forth to try to make their way to brest, which was fairly designated by the german post that was to be resisted, port that was to be denied to us, which it was for some time. Noon, we had been running pretty happy the day before heavy the day before. 4 00n the Assembly Area at in the morning. I think it was the fourth of august. At a place stopped medrinac, southeast of dinan. Stop byeen told to corps and to head and capture dinan. We had already passed it. It was to the north. While we were stopping, trying to get our units stopped and turned to the northeast which was going backwards, patent drove up in two jeeps. His junior aid was in the front jeep with his 50 caliber machine gun pointing down range. The kernel was in the colonel was in the other jeep. Patent came to general grow. We were standing in a wheat field. What had been a wheat field. Helln said bob, what the are you doing here . You ought to be on your way to brest. He said we were, but we got stopped by the 8th corps, who told us to stop and capture dinan. Ouro happened that mcbride, chief of staff, was standing right there. He had a telegram from the 8th corps that said to stop the advance on brest and seize dinan. Patton said i will take care of middleton. It was the corps command of the eighth corps. That night or day we got rolling. We believe we went 60 miles in the dark and ended up in a place hix, i believe. Breakfast, headed out again. We finally got to the outskirts of brest. Grow, in his usual knowledge of terrain, thought that the place to go into brest, the route to attack was from a town called pavau, i believe. U a. I can get it for you in a moment. We had stopped at guipavas. This was the command group. Half track more armored car, maybe a cup or armored car, maybe a couple of jeeps. And one of the drivers with a machine gun started walking down the road towards a hill one at a time. We noticed it was occupied by the germans. They started jumping around and running around and started firing at us with 20 millimeter ammunition. Automatic weapons, which by the way was a vicious weapon. Up the hill. Ck after six weeks of fighting, i think i am right about this, we were relieved shortly after we arrived at brest because we did not have the infantry. The light Armored Division, three Infantry Battalions, we were always short of infantry. The Infantry Division had three regiments. Each regiment, they had the minimum of nine regiments of combat infantry. We were relieved and it finally took six Infantry Divisions i believe. I believe it was six, to reduce fortress garrison. The way they got in the garrison , fromwn from guipavas said, thathich they is the way into brest. So we got in. We had i thought that was kind of interesting. There was a German Division called the 266 Infantry Division. That division was trying to make it into brest. The 15th tank battalion, they were traveling on the road, and caughth tank battalion the lead vehicles and directed pasture. A pastor kept following, our mps cap directing them. [laughter] the Division Commander, carl spang, was the Division Commander. Him at supperad that night and the next day he went on his way to the p. O. W. Camp. Mitchell wentnt, when we first arrived on the outskirts under a thee flag and talked to commanding germinal general who was a Lieutenant General and urged him to surrender. They refused and sent mitchell back out, all very proper and respectful. Ground away. We went down, i dont know if you are interested in this or the but we went down to laureat area. Some of our units remained. One of them was under general van fleet. A there on the du was a little peninsula that went into the estuary on the south side of brest. That little peninsula. They went down to check on them. Liberatorshe b24 that had been destined to bomb the sub pens at brest. They created a lot of dust and fuhrer, but the sub pens remained intact. We went ultimately to the eastern part of france and ultimately went towards the rhine. Unit tothe First Contact the horses coming up from the south, the invasion of hone river the r valley which had been lost. One of our patrols made contact with the first of their units. That was a publicized matter. There was a lot of unhappiness when we were in the area east of one village, being stopped and pushed onto the defensive, ordered onto the defensive by supreme headquarters. All of the Logistical Support was diverted to the british to montgomery to conduct the operation known as market garden. Fence, untiler the that operation cratered, which it did unfortunately with a lot of lives lost area started our advanced. While we were there on the defensive, we had two engagements. One was to the far right of gramercy. Please excuse me. I hope this doesnt appear. We were relieved and put in army reserve near the town of nancy. Eventual operation to the northeast to the rhone river. I believe i would like some water. Gramercy. We went into army reserve. Start an attack towards nancy of the northeast and made a pretty good attack through our lines through the 35th. They had a meeting on the 30th of september at a Little Village in believe it was the 35th division. I didnt go to that meeting. But the senior aide and grow were there. They were meeting with the partyls, mcbride, general bardy of the various divisions. Any suggestion the 35th make a withdrawal behind the river. Two guesses who was there. I am using names like they were contemporaries and friends of mine by these were people i would have addressed with the greatest respect. Im identifying them by the names they were known among themselves, because they are easier to identify i think. It is not a matter of disrespect. Pattonsaid, i dont know will be happy about this withdrawal. Adjourned while they were there on the outside. As visiting with people, shell came in and killed some people, wounded jackie and he was out for five or six weeks. One patton thought were when patton got word of this, he was furious. He had been out away from the third army, visiting some other unit at other headquarters. He came down to the division. I was with general grow when he came there. Idea of makinge a withdrawal. We would all attack and all that. He said i want you to attack tomorrow morning. I want you to eliminate that stadium. If you cant do it, we will have a new division to Mentor Division commander here. He was big on that thread. So we spent the whole night getting units in place, getting ready for the attack the next morning. Grow got an hour of sleep while i watched on the radio. He slept on the ground in a trench coat. The attack went off at x 30. By 9 00 we had the stadium eliminated. It was a ferocious fight. We lost i think 41 killed in 120,short time and about 130 wounded. I have the executive the exact figures in general grows diary. About a week later there was another stadium that developed and weight of we eliminated that. Ourent back and got vehicles in shape. On our welding steel tracks because we were about to jump off in the mud. It was hope this would give us more flotation on track laying vehicles. , the deputyhall chief of staff, tom handy, general patton, general andy, ife commander, i am not sure general wood of the fourth army, the commanding general of 26th infantry, divisions were all brought up at our cp. They were given the chance to meet general marshall and general handy who had come from a visit. I think patton liked us because he would have people meet us in our division. England. Liked us in i dont know if he liked us after we were fighting. I am sure he was area he has always been a great friend of herriot then the next thing i remember that was impressive to me, the river flowed to the north and ultimately into the moselle river. It was a major obstacle. There was an artificial lake upstream, pretty goodsized lake upstream. I think it is Something Like douze. But general eddie came down one day and talked to general grow. General grow and i were together. He said im worried about this lake up here. Im afraid when we tell him to cross the saile river, they will bomb that dam on that leg and we will have a Flood Program that problem because there is a big, plain. The army agreed, they broke the dam and the river flooded. It was over a mile wide. Good planning. The rains were coming, so that , raining veryult substantially for days. The plan was on the eighth of november we were to jump off and go towards the northeast ahead the river into germany and ultimately to the rhine. It had been raining. It worried general eddie and general grow. We were going to be the division that was supposed to be going crosscountry on hopefully a pursuit. So eddie came down to general grow and said i am worried about this rain. He said i am afraid if we jump off tomorrow with this rain, we are never going to be able to get out of the mud. We will be bogged down. He said why dont we take a ride around and see what we think about it and what the situation has done to us. We got in the jeep and followed general eddie in his jeep and ps front,e whole cor noting the rain and so forth. We made the terrain, grow and eddie stopped. He said i think we all to talk to patton. Pattonught to talk to put this on hold until the rain stops. General grow said i think that is a good idea. We went to Army Headquarters and nancy, got there about 5 00, just before supper. Gayral gaffey and general were there. General patton was upstairs. They said, what are you all doing here . General eddie told them and said we came to see if general patton would put the attack off until the rain stops. Gaffey said i dont really think he will do it, but you can ask him. He will be down in a minute. He came down the stairs with old woody patton, his pit bull. As soon as he saw grow and eddie and said what the hell are you and bob doing here . General eddie started and said bob and i have driven all over this front and it is a massive mud and water. Mass of mud and water. We think you should postpone the attack until after the rain stops. Said i tell you what. This is not the way it reads in the history books, nor in row war as i knew it and i think general pattons words are wrong. He said i will tell you what. November 11 is my birthday, only three days away. He said i have always been lucky on my birthday. He said we will jump off but ifw like we planned, you fellows dont want to go along, we will have two new major generals in the army tomorrow night. Generalsinto the mess, and he presided as usual at his mess. About 10 officers eat there. Were guests. Nobody said anything about tomorrow or the rain. Everybody had a good visit. We went back to our cp. General eddy went to the headquarters and we jumped off. The rain stopped at 3 00 that morning. Patton in his memoirs says he was never so nervous. I dont think he slept, but he was really worried. It, had some rough fights. Contacting a unit under fire, which was getting heavy fire from the River Crossing. Area almost constantly in the bridge it would cost. Across in command vehicle. There was another incident near grostinkenace called i believe. Anyway the 35th was aligned , tankthe heavy tank trap ditch. It was a major obstacle. It was, we were to cross it. The 35th was going to try to get andss this tank barrier give us an opportunity to fill , bulldozers. Il we needed a little running room. To see the jump off, there was a ostinkent north of gr that had a machine gun section. 30 gallons. They were dug in, ready to fight. A map. Around with they said this doesnt look like a very good position for us. The minute the 30 caliber opens up, i bet you those krauts are going to dump a bunch of mortars on us. One of them landed so close, the concussion knocked general grow over and sheared a star off of his helmet. There was a dugout right behind. We got in that while the shelling was going on. General, you are not going to be able to see much up here. I think we are wasting our time. He said if you are scared, go down. I said i am scared, but i am not going to leave you. We ran down the hill later on. He got out of there. East to theon river. We did not establish a bridgehead, because we were pulled out to go to the battle of the bulge. That is where we went, first north to luxembourg, then we were ordered to relieve the fourth Armored Division which had just made contact with the gne area westo relieved the fourth and relieved the 101st and turned northeast ne,attack out of bastog which we did. How was the german resistance at bastogne . They had six Armored Divisions. Benjamin we got there. Of course bastogne had been held by the 101st, and they had encircled it. The fourth armor broke that, had a little card to their, there, which we took out. There was a lot of enemy action. We had a strange zone. Eastone we had on the due to the river. The zone on the left followed the Railroad Track from ba stogne to a little town called bourcy, i believe. And beyond. The further we got out, the further we got out, the wider our projects. The less strength we had in the line. Grow used to complain to third headquarters. He was always bithcing because we wereing because going out, it was the middle of winter, we didnt attack before 9 00 because of the lack of sunlight. We have maybe a few hours of fighting time. Plus the weakening of our offensive as we got further out. They finally saw the Infantry Divisions moved up general van fleet, who later commanded in 90th, commanded the division and we worked with them closely along getting those units along the line. 80. , 26, forget maybe at were four larry four lariat divisions. We got our boundaries, our zone narrowed and crossed the river through thely cross fried line. Sieg how was it . Benjamin the germans used it as much as they could. We had charges and things like that, but they didnt have the troop strength to do it. A lot of strength in the bulge. And i guess at the end of january, the bulge was pretty much over, our headquarters was at a place called i have forgotten the name. To the skyline drive which is where the germans voltage,ough on the joe off in december. Night or day, we went over to third headquarters securehe, we had gotten on the side of the river. February. He first of that is the date. Went to third headquarters and John Millikan who commanded was still mad at grow because we didnt make the time out of the bulge because of our wide zone he thought we should have made. Patton was quite satisfied, which was really more important. Then we went on to luxembourg, spent the night with, in luxembourg. Before we did, general grow took , hadd we went to pattons dinner. General van fleet was there. Maybe gay was there but not caffe, because caffe had taken over the fourth Armored Division. Joking andf laughing. The generals had their cigars and whiskey and we stood around waiting, or we sat around in case they needed something more to take notes. The date was february the second. What happened on february the first as i recall from subsequent history is on the first of february, patton had gone to 12th Army Headquarters and was told third army would go on the defense in contemplation of the offensive by montgomery to the north. Everything had to stop when general montgomery was going to make an offensive i guess, to be sure he got all he needed. On the second we did go to the third army, met with millikan, then went to third Army Headquarters. The there but cant caffe was not. I didnt talk. Talkedu when i say we , i am talking about general grow. I sat there like a statue. They smoked cigars, a little scotch. Patton was very talkative. I remember general grow told us, they set you talk about the fourth Armored Division making kills. These tank it is preposterous because first of all they were not in line that much and didnt have much opportunity and we may not have a lot more. Sonon said, you are a dumb of a bitch, but i love you. [laughter] i will never forget that. Patton was saying future armored vehicles, not tanks because tanks already have them, should have steel covers on tops so the artillery fire would not kill troops that are writing in vehicles which became riding in vehicles like which became the bradley fighting vehicle for the herself carrier. You got those over at the museum. Not the bradley. Benjamin you have an apc over there . They load in the back, got a plank, dropped the tailgate. Proper cover on top. They were talking about Armored Divisions needing more infantry. That was always a discussion. It had been discussed as i recall back in october when general marshall and general handy and that enclave came down to our headquarters. Our needs are primarily infantry. Else, if i can think of anything else. Patton was saying the reason we are going on the defensive was because montgomery is supposed to attack in nine or 10 days. He said he needs at least that much time to tidy up his front yard, he said. Montgomery always has to do that. He referred to him as static monte. [laughter] that was his nomenclature for him. I remember we got an order from third army. Third armys order to go on the offensive. Sixthd six armored Armored Division will cease crossings over the river, consolidate a bridge to move forward on order. I was his idea of defense to ce ase crossing. [laughter] and patton was complaining about having units drained away from him and sent north to first army and ninth army. Dubious honor the of protecting the right flank of montgomerys 12th army group when they crossed the rhine which was to be a major operation by them. They did not get off in february. Captured on i was believe march 7, is when they first got close to the bridge. The combat command that made the crossing was out of the ninth armored and it was committed by a general by the name of William Houck who was a very close friend of grows. They consolidated that of course. Ultimately the bridge collapsed, but they had plenty of alternate crossings. We were brought out of the line and put in Army Reserves to the south. In seventh were put army, which upset general patton. He hated losing divisions. Until we attack through the other part of the another area and to the east bank the west bank of the rhine. About the time we got to the rhine, and ithe heard this firsthand, patton had 27th ofnd think on the march, had called up to the generals read irving, had been thattz, and he said to him the army g2 determined there were very little forces defending the east bank of the rhine in germany. See if he couldnt get of italian a battalion across and maybe a regiment. They attacked that night and got a bridgehead across with very little loss of life. Day, theyxt consolidated and had a bridgehead at a place called oppenheim on the rhyme through the thing that was neat about bankseim, it was low and they had a little fairy ferry to the north of town which made it an excellent approach for a bridge. You would have to have a downward ramp from the banks into the ferry landing. They tied up a floating bridge and ran it across the rhine. Of march. On the 25th online towards frankfurt ine. Rankfurt am ma on the day we crossed, combat command a which was out front, was committed by colonel jack , whose father had been chief of the army, very good west point officer. He pushed out to the preferred frankfurt out to the mine crossings. German artillery landed on the back deck of his tank and sheared off the front of his face. All he had left i went to the aide station, when they pulled him out of the tank. Followed him back to the aide station. Clearing station and then general hospital. We went on the attack. While they were suturing him at strafedstation, we got by german aircraft because they were trying to frustrate our attack on the rhine. So embarrassing. We had a heart by going into frankfurt. We had a bridge that was partially affected. We got some infantry across the we didnt have the strength and had to be relieved by the fifth industry infantry and had to shift up to the east of frankfurt, made River Crossing and headed up the autobahn giards gays and towards. Zen, castle we ran into heavy resistance at and id turned east wanted to show you something. This is off the thing. I had them take this picture. Growth,patton, general commander eddy and Johnny Walker. , where our the South Headquarters were for johnny heinz got hit. Had 39 operations after the war. They built him a nose and he could wear dark glasses. Lip. D his lower he did not have anything up here. 2000, the last reunion of the sixth army. I want to show you something i think is an interesting what do you think about these i am not on here now, right . These folks giving these people the miranda warning. Look at that picture. E captured 8000 germans all we did was disarm them, separate the officers from the men and march them down the esplanade of the autobahn. We were moving north and they were moving south to a pow collecting point. You think we could have given them the miranda warning . [indiscernible] it would have taken forever. Benjamin provide each one of them counsel . [laughter] [indiscernible] photograph. Us benjamin that was us. We had, we actually had, you can going had Tank Task Force this way, this is a truck with one of the battalions. I thought that was very interesting circumstance. I messed that one up. I didnt expect that. You are all right. Tell me about capturing mulhouse and. Benjamin we had a good fight. It was a pretty important political town apparently because they had a lot of german flags and materials, so forth. I got some flags and daggers and things like that and memorabilia. Was just a spotty resistance. I mean it is a serious resistance, but when you measure in the magnitude of major armor operation, i dont think it was quite that heavy. It was important. Hausen was a pretty network. D road i was looking at a map that we had of it. Important it was important for that reason. It was important because it disorganized the german resistance when it was captured. Thatt recall that we, general grow had the casualty figures there. We always had casualties only got into a fight. With the concept of armor was to engagements. Ve to the soldier phrase for it was bypass and haul ass. , we would have roadblocks and things like that. There would be things like muhlahausen where you would have a substantial fight. That was one of the last major fights we had, although we had River Crossing problems. The germans were very astute at making defensive positions along River Crossings. Whenever we got a bridge, it was a bonanza event. Every bridge we did not have to achievement. Reat it facilitated in time, facilitated movement and eliminated casualties that are incurred when you have to fight for a bridgehead. Those are always spots good commanders have in mind. General grow was as diligent about to it casualties and wounded and troop wellbeing and any officer i ever encountered. And we went pretty fast and to buchenwald main camp, where they had the ovens and so forth, was secured by us but we didnt have to the Camp Personnel by the time we got there, the germans had evacuated. They had flown. It was an interesting circumstance. We were moving so fast, we heard that buchenwald had been captured from the ninth Infantry Battalion which was our south flank. What happened was one of the flank patrols moving east was signaled i think by two germans, some russians who had been in buchenwald. This was a camp that was north west of weimar. In. Had the patrol came didnt have to fight, but they were overwhelmed by the joy and enthusiasm and freedom feeling of the occupants of the camp. They heard i heard this was that , the commanders throwing in the air with blankets or something, but they had a heckuva time getting out of this lodging and advancing to the east. Wasnt it, but i present. We went on. We went on. The mcured crossings over and the one that mit weine is on. We put our cp in the river at mittweida. They were very concerned about us getting in the firefight with the russians accidentally. To a place called wasberg i believe, which 15, 20 miles maybe east, southeast of mittweida looking for the russians. This was no mans country. I never found them until later they came drifting in at the time. They were something else. Invited to, we were the soviets, one of the day with for lunch one a real vodka flowing liberally. They consume it just incredibly. We could not keep up with that. But they had reached our front. We had pulled back from mit tweida. By may the eighth, they were on the other side of the river. Ve day, they had fired guns over the roof, houses on our side, all of that kind of celebrations. We ultimately withdrew, went beyond is believe the boundary was the mulda river, which was back from where we had crossed and into Assembly Areas of the war was over. Tell me more about the buchenwald concentration camp. Benjamin we did not go there the day it was captured. Our division immediately went to arrangingnd started hospital accommodations for the victims at the plant. Base s a german air see if i can tell you. Urg, but have an army of german air base. They had hospital facilities. He converted those facilities through our division medical battalion. Worked on reviving, restoring and rehabilitating those poor victims. We visited nine days after we captured buchenwald, the hospital and later in the day went to the camp itself where the ovens were, the crematorium. Was theg that struck me only way some of those victims would be identified as a live was they were slowly, and in great intervals blink their eyes. They could not. They were skin and bones. It was very shattering. How long did you stay when you visited . Benjamin maybe 30 minutes. They were not talking. They were on serious injection infusion of fluids. They could not eat. They had to be fed intravenously. It was a Major Medical operation. When they were able to evacuate them, they would. But for the division with a single medical battalion, we had our own problem. We were no longer having battle casualties but to have attrition from other medical problems. Occupiedal battalions with, and they have to maintain a Field Hospital or something sort of like that. Branch, ourr. Medical doctor from arkansas, did a remarkable job of organizing and providing sustenance and care for those people. Crematorium was a macabre experience as you can imagine. And thus ended the war. Did you stay on occupation duty . Benjamin yes, i did. General grow, at the end of the war, general grow was always interested in another assignment. Ateral patton had, we were the canal from where we had not far from where we had crossed the rhine. We went down to see general july n early june or i guess early july. Headquarters of third army was at that time in bavaria , south of munich. General patton had occupied a villa that had been owned by the publisher of hitlers mein kampf, and he made that his headquarters, his personal headquarters. There and wentn to Army Headquarters first, and forn down there, and stayed at dinner. Having his conversation. General smith, who commanded the and division, was there, guess, and ofig course general patton. As he waxing again, usually would in those occasions. I was lucky to be there. He had just come back from the continental u. S. , and said he had a visit with the president , and an exchange with the president. The president asked, general, what do you think of the nonfraternization rule enforced in europe . President , i, mr. Dont think its worth a good goddamn. I dont know if thats what he told the president , but thats what he told us. [laughter] president truman said, i dont, either, general, well stop it. It was came back, over. Inton asked for a command the pacific. Why,id, i cant tell you but this war will be over soon. Sorrytton of course was about that. Grow was sorry about it. Glad, because i didnt want to go to the pacific. [laughter] that heay, he then said had told us, and i know he told a story about, we did not bring you over here to sacrifice your life, get killed. We came over here to kill the germans. I know this is a story he must have told before, at least once in his memoirs. Meyer, ast to fort commander of a cavalry regiment, which had duty as a ceremonial regimen and an active military cavalry regiment, in the 1930s, he said, bea, beatrice, his wife, and he went to chapel, their first sunday there. They were very religious. Theaid, we went down to chapel, and the chaplain spoke aid,almost an hour, and he s monday morning i called the chaplain in and said, chaplain, you dont have a damn thing to say that you cant say in five or 10 minutes. And so next sunday, he says we went down to chapel, bea and i, up to the front row, and when the chaplain started peeking out his head, he said i put up my watch and laid it over my leg, and he said in 10 minutes he was through speaking, and he said, i think i taught him a lesson. Thats where i end my speech, overdue. Would, it was customary to have a Division Follow us and take over extremely occupied, defended areas, because our mission was to move, and bypass, get around the enemy. On the, i cant find any support for this other than my memory, which mayt not be the best in te world, but i do remember that general grow had problems with the 76th not following us fast enough. We were moving so fast east when would make 10, 15 miles a day, and it was important for us to get these occupied areas that were defended contained, because we had logistics. We had supplies to move up, rations, ammo, fuels, new brookins lubricants. Empty trucks, resupply vehicles, wouded. Wounded. So it was always important these more heavily fortified areas be contained by the following infantry unit. I remember general grow calling evening, and i think thats in his diary. I didnt get time to check that. The 76thmplains about division not following close, and also that division was commanded by general william schmidt, who was the same night at the villa, after the war. He was the only other nonofficial general on the staff. Remember patton coming down, and we had a map on the hood of the jeep. Patton and schmidt and general im met and schmidt said, having trouble keeping up because my flanks are exposed. So patton says, dont worry about your damn flanks. You have a flank, the germans have one, too, so you get moving. My curiosity, ive got to check that. Were around these generals a lot. They were having meetings. Were you privy to a lot of major disagreements . You mentioned a disagreement here and there. Benjamin oh, no. You know, theres a certain mystique about being a general. Was, i was never privy to it, because i never was a general. [laughter] but generals are very discreet, usually, and very discreet about criticizing each other publicly. When they have disagreements, and one general is senior to another, they might relieve that general, but you dont hear a lot of bad talk or any, any indiscreet comments. I never did. The only thing i heard was things like, when general patton as heng about called it. [laughter] good name, really. When montgomerys son, ambrose had that dday remembrance in 1984. But i dont recall anything like that. Aneral grow relieved Brigadier General who commanded one of our combat commands. I never heard him say anything except Something Like, maybe hes not doing what i told him, or Something Like that, and he relieved him, wrote a letter to him and discussed relieving him with the corps commander. Mccoy did it, in discussion with taylor. Taylor told not get follow orders. At lease that was his appraisal. Was his appraisal. He sent taylor back with a letter, saying he relieved him, and he went back to the states as a colonel. Ever got muchhe of a command of any sort. Generalalk a lot about grow. You talk a little about patton. And you talked a little offcamera. What was your impression of general patton, overall . Benjamin i think he was an outstanding general. Ill tell you what. From pattons aapers, for example, pertinent example. In england, and about the time patton had made his talk, maybe at that time, p atton told grow we were a far batter division than either the far Better Division than either the fourth or fifth Armored Division, and he wanted one of those Division Commanders, and i will not mention his name because i dont want to embarrass him, to, he was going to go have the corps commander, at that time Johnny Walker of the 20th corps, he called him sometimes fast walker, not to his face, but in his memoirs he referred to fat walker. He wanted walker to take this Division Commander for a visit. He told him, i want you to show him around, because i want him to see a good division. I want, in a few days, you to go visit this general dont want him to know what i feel about the situation. I thought that was very discreet. Patton was critical of collins and bradley for relieving officers too quickly, but he was always on the ground. He was on the ground, when a unit was going into combat for the first time. He would be on the ground, seeing whats going on, criticizing. He did that to us. For example, when we jumped off, we had a combat command a, held up at a River Crossing because of a blown bridge. There was, when patton got down there, it had tidewater. A at flood tide, itd be problem. So patton said, when they started, it was flood tide i think, they started to build a bridge and the ebb tide took it out and it was shallow. He said, get going. They waded in the water. [laughter] but he was making a point that i think was valid. You have to operate. When the tide goes out, you cross it barefooted. Thats the kind of guy he was. Havet think grow had to that instruction from patton. He was like that. He was a curiosity. He said, people are not curious enough. He said, patrols out to be curious. Know,ught to want to what the hell is on the other side of the break or, o the other sider or the other side of the other side of the river or the other side of the hill. He said, lack of curiosity curiosity didnt kill the cat. Lack of curiosity did. [inaudible] w. Njamin he was a quiet fello i think he was a nice general. He was sort of a plastic fellow. I saw less of him than general gay. I got to know general gay much better, and i had a Good Relationship with a fellow who came from a very wealthy family in new york. I think they were big shareholders in an Investment Banking firm. I think his first name was george. French name. , general gay was pleasant. He was blind in one eye. You couldnt tell it. Hed been hit in the eye with a polo ball. Polo player. Almost all the generals were big polo players, understandably. But gay was very nice, very good. Chief ofe was a good staff of patton, because he was, he could smooth things over. He was a healer. If patton got off track, he would be able to manage it. I think patton knew that, and patton welcomed it, i would assume. If i were patton, i would have. [laughter] he was a delightful fellow. I saw him at an airport long after the war, in el paso. He retired in el paso, fort bliss area. He grew up at fort bliss. I was always amazed pershing didnt go back, because he was such a big fort bliss cavalryman. War change you . Or, did the war change you, looking back . Benjamin well, i dont know. Was, i was impressed by seeing men in what i considered high places like patton and grow, no the fact, grow had hesitancy about talking to someone who was higher in rank, and id been brought up in kind environment. K my parents were very religious, and here wasern, general grow, who himself had a very meager background. Hed grown up, his mother died early, his father died after remarrying. He helped his stepmother with canada, in manitoba, in that they had. And yet he had this leadership quality. Something worth studying. But i dont think it changed me. [laughter] do you think you might have matured a little more . Benjamin i think everybody matures in combat. You cant tell people what its like to be in combat. You have to be there. I mean, thats like telling someone what its like to have a baby, but its not quite the same thing as being there. I think it certainly is maturing. Is, it makes you understand that you cant just tell somebody to do something, give a command, and thats the end of the responsibility. You have to supervise them, constantly revise, rotate your t houghts and revise them again. Maturing experience. Impression ofr the war for america . Benjamin arent all wars for america . What is the impression of the war for america . Benjamin it certainly changed world politics. Is that what you mean . Certainly opened up globalism. It may not have been apparent, but all these experiences you have in Foreign Countries give you some sort of a leveling feeling that, well, they are different from us, but theyve got their pluses and minuses, just like we have. Can, its not the recommended form of travel, to be in the armed experience, but i think you get some of the benefits of travel. Ive got two grandsons who are now in the army. Iraq,ad two tours in bronze star. Another one just graduated and is a young lieutenant at fort sill. Fifth generation of my family in the army. I think as a family, we had maybe a different attitude about being in the service, and the need to be in the service. I dont know that we are heroes by any means, but its a job, and im glad those boys are doing their jobs. Iraq hashat was in decided he will make the army a career. How do you think the war changed america, as a whole . On the homefront . Benjamin well, i think initially we were all welcomed back. There were so many people in the army. 12 million i believe were in the armed forces, and it would be hard to find a family that didnt have some direct or collateral relative who hadnt served in the service. So it was a well brought home experience. And of course, there were many casualties. Surprisingly, not as many as in the civil war, and isnt that amazing . Of peoplewere a lot who had sufferings from it, a lot of people who had glory from it. twoink eliminating the antagonists, japan and germany, helped tpeace in the world. Its unfortunate that the soviets still remained. I remember being on a hill, we to radcliffeen from the river, and this was a dominating piece of ground. Weret up on top of it, and watching the Armored Division and the second Infantry Division, other units crossing the river. The panorama was fantastic. Grow said, we ought to go to the china sea, and we wouldnt have any more problems. In your opinion, what is the significance of having the National World War Ii Museum for future generations . Benjamin well, i think its become more and more an educational facility. I hope it has. Of course, wars are ephemeral. They are not lasting, fortunately. But they do create things. You know, if you sit and think about things like war, and i had not mentioned this, but it is are greattrue, there inventions, technological discoveries, that come from the necessities of war. Think we would be in this phase of the High Technology we had and electronics if we had not had such things forced on us like war . Im not advocating war for that purpose. But because you need to improve and do things with you just could not or would not ordinarily do, you achieve a hink isogy base that i t a benefit that you get from combat. But its not something we desire to do, to get the technological improvement. Fore may be other reasons technological improvement, and there obviously are. If we are forced to defend ourselves, it does create a benefit to us to that extent, just like i think the various space explorations, think what that has done technologically. How we have benefited from that activity. So, i think we have to look at we have to look at the benefits we get from them with what they are, benefits. Not to go to war for benefits. Thats a lot of mumbling and jumbling. At the bottom line, i dont think you could say much was said. [laughter] thank you very much for taking the time today. Benjamin im sorry i almost stirred up your schedule. Let me see here. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] antonight on reel america, address from Richard Nixon announcing u. S. And south Vietnamese Forces would attack North Vietnamese military bases in cambodia along the border with south vietnam. This led to new antiwar protests on campuses. Good evening, my fellow americans. 10 days ago in my report to the nation on vietnam, i announced the decision to withdraw an additional 150,000 americans from vietnam over the next year. I said then that i was making that decision despite our concern over increased enemy activity in laos, in cambodia and south vietnam. Thatt that time, i warned increased enemy activity in any of these areas endangered the lives of americans remaining in vietnam, and i would not hesitate to take strong, effective measures to deal with that situation. Despite that warning, North Vietnam has increased its military aggression in all of these areas, particularly in cambodia. After full consultation with the National Security council and my other advisors, i have concluded the actions of the enemy in the last 10 days clearly endanger the lives of americans who are in vietnam now, and would constitute an unacceptable risk to those who will be there after withdrawal of another 150,000. To protect our men who are in vietnam and to guarantee the continued success of our vietnamization programs, i have concluded that the time has come for action. Watch the full address tonight, at 10 00 p. M. Eastern, 7 00 p. M. Pacific, here on American History tv. Night,y saturday American History tv takes you to College Classrooms around the country for lectures in history. Why do you know who Lizzie Borden is . Raise your hand if you have heard of this murder trial. We find the true meaning of the revolution is in this transformation that took place in the lives of the american people. We will talk about both of these sides of the story here, right . The tools and techniques of slaveowner power, and the tools and techniques of power practiced by enslaved people. Watch history professors lead discussions with students on topics ranging from the American Revolution to september 11th. Cspan3,in history on every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv, and available as a podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the may 4, 1970 National Guard shooting at Kent State University in which four students were killed and nine others wounded. Next, howard means talks about his book 67 shots kent state and the end of american innocence, in 2016