Transcripts For CSPAN3 George Washington The Constitution 20240713

Is widely published. I had the great pleasure of introducing her recently on a podcast, and i cannot wait to share her work and her insights with you. Lindsay, welcome to americas town hall. Edward thank you so much for having me. And edward larson, the hugh and hazel darling chair in law at pepperdine university. He is a recipient of the Pulitzer Prize in history. He is the coauthor of 14 books, several of them on George Washington and the founders, and his newest book is franklin and washington, the founding partnership. It is wonderful to welcome you back to the National Constitution center. Thank you so much for having me back, even if only virtually. It is just great. I am so eager to learn from both of you and with both of you in a spirit of louis brandeis. Come, let us reason together. Let the learning begin. Let us begin with you, because you have this powerful pairing of the two founders you consider the first among the founders, washington and franklin. You notice they are labeled first and second in the most famous portrait of the Constitutional Convention and are often considered for most by their contemporaries. You developed so many parallels among them, including their shared support for strong Central Government. The friendship they cultivated during the battles of the french and indian war and their opposition to the stamp acts and during the colonial era and the Constitutional Convention, you noticed a shared quality in both of their call characters. That is a dedication to a stoic conception of virtue. Both said in different ways that a government cannot succeed without a virtuous people who believe in happiness is not possible without virtue, and virtue is necessary for a successful government. And they got that from stoic sources, pythagorasgolden rule, having been an avid reader of socrates. Washingtons favorite play was cato, which he read to the troops. The concept of virtue is not familiar to our modern eras. Tell us how washington and franklin understood virtue, and why they believed it was crucial to the success of republican government . First, we must realize that at the time, a republic was literally something new under the sun. That was the motto, something new under the sun. There wasnt any examples of an effective continental republic. And there were very few republics. Maybe in switzerland, maybe venice. They could look back to ancient rome before the empire and see a republic. And they looked, they studied both men. Both men realized and remember, both were selfmade men. By the time of their death, certainly by the time of their prime, they were literally the most famous americans and the most respected americans both here and throughout the world. They had come up, especially franklin, from literally nothing, from being an indentured service, a refugee to philadelphia, to become one of the wealthiest men in philadelphia. A true success. Washington is the same sort of success story. He was not born into everything. He inherited some, but he worked hard. They were creating something new, and they looked over to europe and they saw a few leaders. Franklin new a lot about this personally because he spent so much time in europe. You realized they were decadent. Then he looked at the people, and the people were like sheep. They wanted to create something new. They were both children of the enlightenment and they wanted to create this new thing. They wanted to create a government of the people. That is what washington wrote in the draft, a government of the people. Lincoln later borrowed it, but that was from washington. And that is what franklin dreamed about, too. To do that, they believed they needed both republican virtue, as they called it, republican virtues in the people, and republican virtue in the leaders because they feared a demagogue, a person like a Patrick Henry would be there example. They feared that. They knew that aaron burr would be a later example. They feared what that would do to a country. But they also knew that people needed virtue. That is why they supported public education. Think of what franklin did to motivate public education. They knew they needed virtuous people. When they left the Constitutional Convention, on the last day of the Constitutional Convention in philadelphia, franklin gave a magnificent closing speech. In it, he said, this is not perfect. This will not last forever. But it is the best we can have now. But this government, if the people lose virtue, it will lead to tierney like every other type of government to tyr anny like every other type of government. He wrote the same to his nephew, that this constitution will only work as long as the people have virtue and the leaders have virtue. That is what they brought to government. That is what they brought to what they were trying to create. They knew how fragile a republic was. Thank you so much for that. Lindsay, tell us more about that powerful statement that both franklin and washington believed that the republic would falter unless the people and the leaders have virtue. How did washington believe that people should cultivate the habits of virtue . Franklin famously proposed 13 virtues that all of us should follow every day, from temperance to patients to humility. He got it from pythagorasgolden virtue. He said we should put checkmarks by them. I tried it. It is quite sobering to see, actually. [laughter] but washington had circulated although he did not write it, the famous rules for civility. Obviously he cared a lot about this, too. What were the classical sources that inspired washington, and how did he believe people should cultivate virtue . Sure. Well, washington had a deep conviction that no person was ever fully formed, so there needed to be a constant effort to improve yourself, to improve your education, to try and master your flaws. In to really see yourself as an ever evolving person. He has certainly tried to live up to these standards through selfeducation. He was an avid reader. Constantly consuming news and trying to learn new things in a variety of different fields. War, science, agriculture. He really enjoyed the theater, so he took in culture and fiction when it was recommended to him, high quality fiction like don quixote. He was trying to improve who he was from an ideological perspective, but also master what he knew to be his own shortcomings. His temper, of course, is one of his most famous examples. He worked really hard to keep his natural temper in check, with mixed results sometimes. He learned to not make rash decisions. He learned to consult with people who had more knowledge than he did. He learned to be solicitous of those in the civil government and not speak rashly to people who were his superiors. There were things he had to cultivate over a period of time, learned from his mistakes, and had to bring that knowledge into his next position. He believed firmly that all citizens they were not necessarily going to meet standards, but everybody needed to try to continue to better themselves as a nation, as a state, as a citizen, and a republic required that sort of dedication because they had seen countless examples that power was so easy to corrupt. And it was so easy to go overboard. So you needed to have citizens that were constantly trying to better themselves and were trying to suss out their own weaknesses in order to maintain a republic. Thanks for all that. Give us a sense about whether washingtons virtue, which he included in his farewell address, distinguished him from madison, who was more determined to have constitutional checks that would ensure a successful government even if men were not angels. Then give us a sense of the central defining moments in washingtons character leading up to the presidency. We talk about several important periods where he and franklin worked together in their opposition in the intolerable acts and stamp acts, their service on the work cancel. Workwar councel. Highlighting what lindsay just said, while she was talking i dont know if anybody could see it, but i walked back to the shelf behind me and pulled down the only book washington ever wrote. The rules of civility. At the age of 14, washington did not have great expectations. He was the third son. Back when everything was inherited by the first son. Not only was he the third son, he was the son by the second wife. So he thought he would have to make his own way. That is why he learned to survey, went out on the frontier, and not the future would like franklin believed the same thing. They both believed what made America Special and different from europe is there was a frontier, that people would not be trapped and controlled by a few landowners. They could go on to the frontier, they could make their own way, they could make their own fortune. Franklin did that by experience, by leaving boston where he was trapped as an indentured servant, and making his own way. Washington too went to the frontier and began surveying land. He wrote down these maxims, and he borrowed them from a french maxim, and he wrote them down by hand. The first one is every action done in company ought to be with the same sign of respect to those that are present. Respect, that was a key one. It goes on with all the rest. Both viewed the future as the frontier. Washington went there and learned lessons on the frontier, just as franklin did. They were in two separate colonies. By the time the french and indian war comes, franklin had already made his fortune and he moved into public service. He had been elected to the colonial legislator, and he had become the leader by sheer hard work, ability, and brilliance. He had become the leader of the opposition, the nonquaker government. Meanwhile, washington, both of his brothers had died. He inherited mount vernon, and he also inherited the leadership of the virginia militia. When the french and indian war came, the quakers had to leave the government of pennsylvania because they could not fight. And franklin became the effective governor, and was given the authority to create a militia. Because what had happened is the french and indian war was fought over the forks of the ohio country, which then was western pennsylvania. The french had moved in there and built a fort there, and invaded what pennsylvania considered their own land, but also virginia did because their boundary was supposed to be going west. It resulted in both virginia and pennsylvania claimed what is now pittsburgh while the french were there. The french were attacking also blurs both from pennsylvania were attacking all settlers, from both pennsylvania and virginia. He led the troops and it turns out he was really good at it. Washington has to go west, ahead of the militia, and defend what is now western pennsylvania. They started to Work Together. Both worked with brad acklin. Both warned him, dont do it. These native americans will cut you to slices, which they did. Famously, he said back to franklin, they may cut your militia to slices, but they will not know how to beat the british army. They did, including branded, who washington brannock, who washington carried back and buried. You have the two people working together then. They realized we can only win by working together. These colonies cannot work independent. They need to Work Together. They also learned that you cannot trust the british. They dont care about us, they only care about themselves. After the war, they drew a proclamation line and said you cannot settle in the west. This is what sets franklin and washington off because they thought public virtue would come by people having economic freedom, Economic Opportunity, political freedom, political opportunity, and that was the frontier. If you lose that, you lose what makes America Special. So right from the get go, they had fought for that. They thought we needed to unify. These colonies could not do it alone. So they learned together in the french and indian war the need for americans to band together. The First Political cartoon ever drawn in america, they unite or die with the rattlesnake cut up in pieces, this is interesting. That was published in the pennsylvania gazette, the First Political cartoon drawn in america. If you look at the picture, what surrounds it is washingtons account of his trip west to fight the french. They are all together. So they continue to bring that knowledge that we need. Unity, we need people with Economic Opportunity and political freedom. We need virtue. And they brought all that to the revolutionary war, where washington led the troops. Franklin proposed that he lead the troops. Franklin oversaw the work committees until he was sent to france. Then he oversaw the alliance with france. He brought it about. Then he orchestrated sending the troops. Where is the french navy needed . Where is the french army needed . Yorktown would not have happened if he had not arranged for the french navy and army, and washington brought down the american army, to capture cornwallis at yorktown. They worked hand in glove so after the revolution, after franklin comes back, he is elected governor of pennsylvania. It is almost he is almost 80. He gets elected back then when people lived shorter times, and he gets elected governor. And he is fabulous at the job. The state was in trouble before him. He knows how to make it work. Then of course, washington from mount vernon, franklin from his seat as governor of pennsylvania, pushed for a Constitutional Convention because they saw america collapsing without unity, without unified commerce, without a Central Government controlling the western frontier. That was so important to both of them because until you had a Central Government with the ability to raise troops and to raise funds and to project our armies, open up the frontier, what was happening was no state had an interest in protecting the frontier, and the native americans were moving back. They had retaken the forks of the ohio, they had retaken two thirds of georgia. It was these needs of opening the frontier, of maintaining the frontier, of having a Central Government maintain Foreign Policy and a Central Government able to raise taxes and spend money for the common welfare, and also control interstate commerce. Franklin and washington, because they both had run businesses across state lines, they knew that was essential to create a place where there would be a growing economy, which was central to the peoples virtue, and protect her to go freedom and not have individual states go off on tangents like rhode island in georgia. Rhode island and gorgeous. Rhode island and georgia. The very first place he goes after dropping off his bags at Robert Morriss house was to visit franklin. They sat down under that Mulberry Tree in front of his house and discussed what they needed to do to make a more perfect union. That is great. You have given us so much to think about, taking them from the french and indian war all the way to the Constitutional Convention. You begin your book by discarding that scene of washington deciding not to drive up to franklins house because that is where he was in company by enslaved people. Franklin did not approve of slavery at that point. You take all those experiences this shared devotion to a strong Central Government, strong commerce to keep the west open and ensure economic independence. Lindsay, i would love you to give us your insights on that broad period from your remarkable and helpful perspective. You can take us through the same period. Edward didnt talk as much about the revolutionary war and exactly how franklin and washington joined together on the work counsel. But focusing on washington, take us through the Constitutional Convention, and in your view, what were the central experiences that shaped his devotion to strong central federal power and senate virtue . Washington has to be understood as someone who has a military mindset. He is most in his leadership most of his leadership was in a military capacity. He had that in the house of burgesses, but he was not known for his oral speaking abilities. He would frequently sit back and listen to other people. Where he took charge was on the battlefield. That really shaped who he was, because he spent eight years in the army and he only went home to mount vernon once. It was on the way to yorktown. He was with the army every day except for when Congress Called him from wherever they happened to be working for an update. He sought day in and day out the lack of food, the lack of shoes. When they say people had bloody feet, that was not an exaggeration. The lack of materials, the lack of food for horses, the lack of ammunition. He felt very strongly, and this was a direct quote, that they were expecting him to build works without straw build bricks without straw. He became convinced that there needed to be a strong central authority. He writes a letter at the end of the war to the different governors, basically saying we need to Work Together to try to improve the strong central authority. It needs to be centralized. We cannot be having these ad hoc communities ad hoc committees. People tend to argue. I think he really had that deep conviction through the end of the work, and it was his time during the confederation after the war, the in between periods where he becomes convinced that congress is not the right body to hold that authority because they tend to bicker, congressman come and go, there is a lack of institutional knowledge. A committee has a difficult time making a decision because one person can move more quickly and efficiently and the economy is in shambles, diplomacy is a mess because the western regions have different goals than new england and the southern regions. They all want different things. They are bickering over defense expenses because eastern regions feel like western settlers are provoking conflicts with native americans and they dont want to have to pay for it. By the end of 1787, sections are threatening to secede and form their own nation. This terrifies washington because he had just spent eight years trying to ensure there would be one nation, not six, or however many sections there might be. He becomes convinced that the executive is the best place to have energetic authority. When i say energetic, i mean someone who can make a decision, then pursue policy and implement that quickly and strategically and with authority. He feels Like Congress is not wellequipped to act in that way. By the time he gets to the Constitutional Convention, he very much believes there needs to be a strong executive. He was a very astute political mind. That is one of the reasons why i think he was procrastinating about going to the convention and was reluctant to go initially, and new what he was coming once he was there, if it was going to be successful and there was going to be a single executive, he and everyone else there knew it would be him. But he believed that he alone could fill that position because i would argue he was the most famous man in the world. Edward may want to disagree with me about franklin. But i would argue that washington was the most famous man in the world. He was younger than franklin, so he was better equipped to lead the nation in this way. He was one of the few people who could bring the states together. He felt a sense of purpose and duty. Not because he wanted to be president. I think he felt like he had to be or else the nation wouldnt work. Thanks for that, and for noting his reluctance to attend the convention, but as you noted, if he were not there, the thing would not have succeeded. It was the knowledge that he would serve as the first president that created the unity necessary to ensure the success. Talk about franklin and washingtons contributions to the convention. They did not say much. Washington hardly spoke, franklin famously said at the end, i always wondered if the chair was a rising or setting sun, now i think it is rising. He did a lot behindthescenes. But focusing on washington in particular, because he is our simple hero here, what were his constitutional contributions to the convention . I agree very much with how lindsay set it up. He believed in a strong executive. Democratically elected executive. One who would serve with terms that would be limited. But he did believe in the need for a strong executive. One of the two places where franklin disagreed with him, franklin had rented the constitution of pennsylvania, which is a strong executive and a weak legislature. But when franklin was governor, he made it work because everybody listened to him. That was the situation we have going into the convention. You have these two, and i agree with lindsay that washington was one of the most famous people in the world. I believe that he and franklin were coequal that respect. They both were the two universally respected people in america. If you read every argument for ratification, it does not matter if it was virginia. If they gave us this, we have to ratify it. They were the two people who were essential to making it work. They agreed on the big things. They agreed on a strong Central Government. They agreed on the Central Government having the power over interstate commerce because they did not want the states fighting with each other over commerce. They agreed on the Central Government having power over the military and diplomacy and the frontier. All the big things they agreed on. And they did differ. What franklin said, he said quite a bit at the convention, but both of them were so committed to this working that both washington and franklin were constantly having meetings, meeting with people at their homes or where washington was staying, they were both brokering compromises because essential to their character, both of them believed in compromise. Both of them believed you dont compromise on principle, but we compromise on need. As lindsay said, washington was not a great public speaker. Neither was franklin. They both listened more than they spoke. They both loved to give credit to others rather than take all the credit themselves. Both were famous about that. Both had virtues of working like a team. But asthat is why franklin worked in the council in washington won the cabinet. They did disagree strongly on how much power the president would have because franklin feared that if you give too much power to anyone branch or any one person, that person will become a tyrant. So he joins with a couple other key leaders, one man from massachusetts, randall from virginia, george mason of virginia. The four of them were constantly arguing for a weaker presidency. They pushed for and franklin got things like the power of impeachment because he thought that was essential. They pushed for term limits and all sorts of things like this, but they did not get it all. The the other three this is important the other three voted no. It was only washingtons vote that had virginia support the constitution because it was 32 because they both went the other way. And algebra jerry votes no. But franklin, and that famous last speech, which surprises people, says im voting yes because this is better than what we have now. What we have now is going to lead to chaos, collapse, and destruction. And i believe this government will be led well as long because we know who the first person is. And as long as washingtons president , this is going to be fine because he has good virtue. But this could lead to tierney and some other president. But we need washington to set the standard, set the term, set the precedent that will lead us forward. So franklin has so much faith in washington as a leader, even though they disagreed on slavery, had so much belief in washingtons virtue that he supported the congress the constitution. And without his support, and the convention is secret the only thing to link leak from the convention is franklins last speech, arguing why even a person who questions this should support it. An washington transmits a letter. So when people read the constitution, they read it together with washingtons powerful leteter and franklins powerful closing speech. They knew those two things leaked, and they leaked for a reason. Thanks for all that, and how interesting to learn about the fact that franklin did side with the antifederalists, who refused to sign the constitution when randolph and mason and gary, as ive learned, and it was washingtons support for a strong presidency at the final stages of the convention at the expense of the senate, that laid the foundations for the modern presidency, as he put it, by throwing in his lock with hamilton, wilson, and how important to note that washingtons transmittal letters was so central and during ratification, his support in virginia was crucial, as well. He said the powers granted to congress were indispensably to form government. That brings us up to the presidency of washington and the subject of your important new book. And in your book, you argue that the constitution itself does not establish us president ial candidates. In fact, the delegates specifically rejected the idea. Tell us how and why washington created one of the most powerful bodies in the federal government, why he waited two and a half years to call cabinet, and what the models for his cabinet were getting back to his service in the councils of war. Sure, so, as you noted, the war cabinet doesnt actually exist in the constitution and the delegates of the Constitutional Convention definitely debated this concept. They knew that a president needed advice. No president ever leads alone, so they knew there needed to be people to serve to provide assistance. But they were worried about a cabinet because they had just come from declaring independence from great britain, and they felt that sort of counsel would lead to corruption. It would lead to cronyism. It hid transparency at the highest levels of government, so it kind of obscured who is responsible for each decision, and they really didnt want to implement that sort of system into the new government, and so they put in place two different alternatives. One, the president could request written advice from secretaries. These provisions are in article two, section two of the constitution. The president could request written advice on matters pertaining to their department. And this was crafted very carefully because it demonstrates their desire to have basically a paper trail, a chain of evidence about what people were advising to president s and who is saying what and who was advocating for each position. And if the opinions are all written then you have the documentation. And they also wanted advisors to stick to their area of expertise. They didnt want advisors about every single topic. Instead, they wanted their president to be getting details, concise, wellestablished advice from people who had experience in these areas. The second option that they gave was the senate. And unlike today, where the senate sort of serves as a rubberstamp on treaties or appointments, or rejects them out of hand, the senate was intended to be basically a council on Foreign Affairs and provide advice to the president when he was considering issues of diplomacy. Now, of course, the senate was much smaller at the time, so its not 100 people trying to provide advice. But that was really their expectation because the senate was indirectly elected. So it was at least somewhat responsible for states. It could be held accountable for the advice they were giving. And so when washington went into the presidency, he had said he was there every day. He was socializing with all of the other delegates. He was having tea and going to the theater and the sting to music. So he had a very clear expectation of what they had decided about the advisors. He had been listening. And so he had went into the presidency attempting to really follow these rules. And he visits with the senate in august of 1789, and it goes very badly because the senate was acting like the legislative body. They wanted to deliberate. They wanted to talk about committee. An washington was a military man. He wanted that official advice. He wanted answers right away. So just a couple of months into his presidency, all of a sudden this option isnt really working for him and he decides hes not going to go back to the senate to request advice. And he quickly discovers that written advice isnt really effective either because today, when were exchanging emails with people, sometimes well have another question and well forget we wanted to ask it and so we will send another email. Imagine trying to do that with parchment and quell. It takes a long time to write the letter, let it dry, have it delivered, and then they have to write the response. And these are serious matters of state and there are complicated issues, and washington was frustrated that letters were moving too slowly. So he starts having hell exchange a letter, and then hell start inviting his secretaries over to have them followup discussion, and did that for about two and a half years. In the first Cabinet Meeting didnt take place until november 26, 1791, so to an a half years into washingtons administration, which is really important because it shows it wasnt therefrom day one or what anyone expected. As he mentioned, washington grew on his council were experienced to shape his interactions in the cabinet, because it was the leadership experience he knew and its what worked really well for him during the war. Thank you for that. Its a important story. It has not been told before, and tying washingtons war service to this institution he created during the presidency, which as you say, does not appear in the constitution, has illuminated us all. We have 20 questions in the q a box, and theyre so good. Start time to start asking them. Lets try to get through as many as possible. Ill offer them to different ones of you. The very first question is professor larson, love your books. By the way, please remind us why president washington stepped down after just two terms. Itd set president precedent. And it is a great virtue, his republican virtue. He believed you took office by the call of people. And you will by the call of the people. Now, it wasnt a strong presidency, but weve got to remember he served to all the people. He had done the same thing as a military leader. He vowed that when the revolution was over, he vowed at the beginning that he would step down. Oh, the opponents would say oh, look, the breeder said look, why are you changing one george for another . Now you are going to get king George Washington. Look at every leader. They all become dictators. Washington said no, im going to step down. That created the story from the roman leader in cincinnati who had stepped down after saving rome. Washington does it at the end of the revolution and is convinced he needs to do it again as president to not have the sense of a lifetime president , but rather this president is called out of the people to serve and go back. Franklin thought the same way. He went out and back in and out. And set that standard. And he believed everything he was doing was setting a precedent. Hamilton believed that. So did morris. So did the key advisors. He believed he was setting the precedent. And that precedent then lasted up until world war ii and Franklin Roosevelt. And as soon as Franklin Roosevelt broke it, hten the states and cons then the states and Congress Passed an amendment. Two terms, thats it. Thanks very much for that. There are several questions about virtue. Virtue may have been an aspiration for both franklin and washington, but they were skeptical to wish to aspire to virtue and guard against would you agree . We also have a question about whether their conception of virtue and washington, in particular, in the lifelong quest, was grounded in religious faith . Ill ask whether the stoic or classical value of reasons, part of it as well. And then, of course, theres a question about how franklin was more colorful in his personal life than washington. This personal life was beyond reproach. And how central was this virtue to shaping this exemplary character . Lindsay, ill let you take all three of those about washington and franklin and virtue. Sure, lots of questions about virtue, which is great because i think thats something were seeing is a really important part of politics. We want our politicians to be virtuous, especially in times of crisis like were seeing today. I dont think washington was a particularly religious person. He had a deep sense there was some sort of providence. And it wasnt providence like god like we think of today. It was providence like a sense of fate, almost. But he had a conviction that he had a certain role that he was destined to play. And so he had to better himself to be able to fill that role and fulfill that destiny. So, i dont think its a particularly biblical approach to virtue, but more of a deep sense of who he was supposed to become. In terms of his personality, he definitely wasnt as outwardly colorful as franklin. But that didnt mean he was boring. And we tend to think of him as this marble bus or the picture on the one dollar bill. And thats not really who he was. He had a lot of passions. He loved to read, he loved the theater, he loved music, he loved dancing, he loved riding horses, he loved dogs. And these are the things that make up who he was, just like our passions make up who we are today. He also had a great sense of humor, which is sometimes underappreciated. One of my favorite washington stories is after he retired, he went home and they had these big meals almost every day. He said he was hosting guest every day that were coming to see him. And his favorite hound was a big hound named vulcan. And one day, vulcan came in and basically stole the ham that was sitting on the dining room table and ran out of the room and ran outside with it. And martha was furious because she had ordered this dinner prepared, and washington thought it was hysterical and just burst out laughing and absolutely thought it was the funniest thing. And i love telling that story is because one, it shows he loves dogs and i love dogs, too. But it shows he was a real person and he enjoyed humorous things. Wonderful. Thank you for that. Let me add i want to add questions on the table, and both about washington on slavery. Throughout his life, did washington own slaves . And was there any efforts made in philadelphia to change his views on slavery and slaveowning . And bonnie asks, how strongly did franklin push his position of antislavery on washington, and in what setting, such as the Constitutional Convention, did washington speak on slavery . These are great questions, both of them. And that certainly was the achillesheel for washington because, as your people, as these questioners ask, franklin was pushed on being a model to oppose slavery. Remember, franklin had become the president of the first Abolitionist Society in america. Franklin was taking the lead in opposing, calling for the end of slavery. He was working worldwide with abolitionist leaders in france and in england to abolish slavery. Pennsylvania, first state to abolish slavery. Washington comes there as president. Now, he pressed washington, but more importantly, so did so many of his advisers. Hamilton, lafayette, lawrence. They all pressed washington during the revolution. Please, release your own slaves. Make a statement against slavery. Be like franklin. You and franklin are the leaders. You can set a model for it. And washington always equivocated. Thats the word for it. Hes pained by it. Hes pained when he talks to them. When it comes time for the Constitutional Convention, is the head of state, but also head of the Abolitionist Society. He clearly talks with washington about it. But what franklin decides is the constitution wont go through. The carolinas, virginia, theyll vote. We need to make a stronger union. Once we have that union, then can work to abolish slavery. Well have the power to do it. When the first government is formed, the first thing franklin does is submit petitions calling on congress to end slavery. In those petitions completely stop government for weeks as they have to debate the slavery issue raised by franklin. And washington is furious. We know his private letters. Because he wants to keep the country going. He wants to go further along this route. Answer franklin is venting and private and so frequent is venting franklin in venting in private. Those petitions are buried after a while, after some debate. Rachlin goes to his grave. Franklin goes to his grave. He frees his own slave. Because he wasnt a good speaker, he leads to retiring, led by his actions as a leader of the truce. And here, hes trying to lead, i believe, by the action of freeing his slaves at his desk because that, he hopes to send a message. It doesnt work. Its too late. But thats where washington ended. Franklin was pushing for it. Thats their last interaction. Its a divisive one. But its how it ended. Thats how they stand on slavery. And of course, as franklin warned in a speech read by Gouverneur Morris at the convention, its slavery thats going to tear this union apart. They realize it. Thanks for all that and for addressing that crucial series of questions. Lindsay, sharon asks, did washington solicit advice from anyone else in choosing the first members of his cabinet . And ill just add, a as well, this great quote from nancy hart. Who were his mentors that helped him shape him as a person . Great question. Yes, washington absolutely did ask for advice of who he should appoint in his cabinet. He had a couple of key considerations. It was very important for him to represent different regions and interests in the nation. And so he made sure that hamilton represented the new york merchants, trade, industry, urban, perspective. Knox was making his home up in maine. Admin randolph and Thomas Jefferson came from virginia. But they also had a lot of different backgrounds and experiences. They had the type of expertise that they could provide with a different perspective. And this was a precedent a lot of people dont appreciate, that president s that follow him really begin to follow this model. And of course, this idea of what interest and what people should be represented in that image has expanded and become more diverse. But he did ask for more recommendations. Madison was instrumental in getting him to choose jefferson as his secretary of state. As ed, i think, said earlier, i think Robert Morris was close with washington. There were good friends. But Robert Morris to beard and said he didnt do mirrored and said he didnt want to be secretary of state. It was important for washington he had a personal relationship with all these people already. Hamilton was a natural second choice because they had this wartime relationship. Jefferson and washington knew each other well. Admin randolph was an aide during the war, washingtons private attorney for many decades prior to coming into office. And henry knox was one of his favorite officers. And they were immediately, from 1775. So, he had these different considerations and ask for peoples advice. And whoever fit that image or those different values, he was amenable to appointing. Wonderful, thank you for all that. Well, its time for very brief closing thoughts in this absolutely wonderful discussion. Ill just tee it up with a question i asked lindsay when she appeared on the podcast. This is the question. In his wonderful novel, democracy, henry adams has a great scene where Madeleine Lee, whos the hero, takes a trip to boat trip to mount vernon. And she has a date with a dish nobleman about what british nobleman about whether or not George Washington was overrated. And some of the participants say he actually was a paragon of virtue, and others say he was a paper saint. And Madeleine Lee decides the meaning of america turns depending on whether washington was a saint or not, whether the american idea is real or is a lie. If you had to take sides, what would your answer be and what would you want the audience to leave with about the central virtue of George Washington . The story of washington, of course, when people look back at washington right after his death, talking right away, whats the story . His story is i cannot tell a lie. I cannot tell a lie. Now, thats a story. It didnt actually happen, but its a story that americans believe. And what it captures is the need that americans needed to believe that washington was not a lie, that washington was not a paper figure, that he really was fundamentally a saint. And that goes for franklin, too, whos worshiped. His autobiography is the bestselling book of the 19th century, worshiped by so many people. These people are founding fathers, have to have a certain sense, particularly washington and franklin, have to have this believability, this sense of truth. And i think washington was that way. I think washington was fundamentally honest. He dealt straight with people. He was honest. And that sort of honesty in government he admitted his limitations. He knew he wasnt infallible. Thats why he used a cabinet. Thats what he drew on others. But that sense of virtue and character, he had to not only projected. He had to live it. Thank you so much. Lindsay, last word to you. You had a chance to think about the henry adams question. Was washington a paragon of roman virtue, or paper saint, or something in between . Yeah, i kind of want to stand by my original answer. I think he was neither and both, and thats what the nation is. Its this great idea and this great possibility in this great experiment, but of course continues to be deeply flawed. But that doesnt mean there is not incredible potential for innovation and growth and improvement. And as weve talked a lot about today, thats what washington wanted to pursue himself was constant betterment. And so, what better legacy to actually lead for the nation then constantly wanting to be better and be more virtuous and improve . Thank you so much, lindsay and ed, for a superb launch of our National Constitution centers virtual town hall series. Friends, we have a series of great programs coming up, including on april 6, the constitutional legacy of the warren court. On april 20, why does the Electoral College exist . Thats a great debate. You will love hearing both sides. April 23, how to fix president ial elections and beyond . Dont we all want to do that . Im sure that will be a great discussion. An april 28, how to restore trust in american institutions. Excellent new book. Thank you all, most of all, for taking time out of your days and evenings, anxious times, these challenging times, to educate yourself about the constitution, to cultivate your faculties of reason, to learn and grow. Let us use these times we have to continue to educate ourselves, and lets do it together. In the National Constitution Center Stands ready, convene great thinkers like lindsay and ed to think together. Thank you so much for joining. National Constitutional Center friends, look forward to seeing you soon