Transcripts For CSPAN3 QA Richard Norton Smith 20240713

Richard norton smith, why did you call your book that you wrote 35 years ago uncommon man . Well, its taken, actually, from the title of a relatively famous hoover speech about the uncommon man. Remember, Vice President henry wallace, who was the second of fdrs Vice President s, gave a famous speech in 1942, i believe, maybe43, about the century of the common man. And wallace, from a left of center perspective, was projecting, in effect, the goals and ambitions of the generation that was fighting world war ii. And it wasnt enough simply to defeat the nazis, but to create at home a true democracy. A place where the common man would finally come into his own. And hoover approached this from a different place on the political spectrum. He was, in effect, making the case for what we might call a meritocracy. But something to say, that i shouldnt paraphrase it, but, you know, when you get sick, you want an uncommonly skillful doctor. When we go to war, we want an uncommonly able general. You get the picture. The advances in society were brought about not by common but by uncommon individuals. And it was hoover wit. He said, ive never met an american parent who is proud to have their son or daughter called common. And its an interesting you know, its an interesting outlook. N so, in any event, it seemed to me that it applied to hoover more than anyone else. Hoover said, when all is said and done, accomplishment is all that matters. Which, when you stop to think about it, is a rather unsentimental the sort of thing you would expect an engineer to say. And thats one of the keys to understanding his life, his success in everything but the presidency. N as we continue our series on the presidency, go back to the beginning of Herbert Hoover. Where did he come from . Where did it all start . His life began in august, 1874. General grant was in the white house. His father was a blacksmith, jessie hoover. His mother, huldah hoover, was first of all, theyre both quakers, which meant that she was an equal presence in the church, in the community, in the home. She was a lay preacher, if you will. So religion was a significant part of his early days. He remembered again, it seems to me, such a window on his later shortcomings, if you will, as a politician in particular. He remembered as a boy sitting in the stark, cold, barren Meeting House that the quakers used in west branch. And his feet didnt even touch the floor. And along with all the adults, women on one side, men on the other, waiting for the divine light to illuminate his life, to move him to speak as it moves others in the congregation. And he also said something, i think, terribly poignant. He said he was 10 years old before he realized that he could do something for the sheer joy of it without offending the lord. When people wrote about the adult hoover being an enigma, an emotionally distant man, who was nevertheless clearly very moved by the suffering particularly of children in belgium and thereafter. They had trouble making the two hoovers blend. And in some ways, again, its a preview of his strengths with a mirror side of his weaknesses. What were his parents like . And what happened to them . Well, he was orphaned at 8. I mean, jessie died first, and huldah, i believe, i want to say he may have been 10. In any event, he was put on a train with 10 cents sewn into his underclothes and some homemade vittles, and sent to oregon to live with a quaker uncle by the name of minthorn in newberg, oregon. If you go today, you can see the Herbert Hoover boyhood home there. And there he was, in effect, trained to business. His uncle was a businessman, and bert, has he was known, went on to stanford. He was in the original class. In fact, stanford became probably the closest thing to a home away from home. He would be a trustee for over 50 years. He built his home there. Today, its the universitys president s house. But in any event, he loved stanford. And he ran a business. He ran a laundry business. He ran other businesses. So he had this entrepreneurial streak in him. Studied geology and engineering. Met, fell in love with lou henry, also from iowa, a unique woman in many ways, the first at stanford to earn a geology degree. So they had this real Respectful Partnership from the beginning. They were intellectual equals. And the best evidence of that is, they were married in 1899, and the government of china had invited him to help develop that countrys mines. And they went, they sailed, their honeymoon. They went to tientsin, where they were promptly caught up in the boxer rebellion, which was the uprising of native forces against the westerners, who for too long had, in effect, subjugated and exploited a very weak china. In any event, they were in tientsin during the siege. And there are these wonderful letters. Lou, who was she was the perfect wife because she loved adventure. And to her, the boxer rebellion was an adventure. She writes letters home saying, youre missing one of the great sieges of the age. She also said later, she got up every morning and swept the bullets off her front porch. N they had two children, two sons. And lou designed you can see it at the library in west branch lou designed a cradle exclusively for use onboard ocean liners. By the time herbert junior was 8 years old, hed been around the world five times, which tells you what happened was, hoover, who began digging ore in nevada, and then being hired by a London Mining firm at the age of 23 and sent to australia, found fabulous riches there for his employers. And then went to london. He had offices. By the time he is in his 30s, hes generally regarded as the worlds foremost mining engineer. Hes living in london. And, in fact, one of the things that would come back to haunt him throughout his political career, throughout his public life, were those among his own countrymen, nativists, who believed that he was not sufficiently american, that he was somehow really british. Its reminiscent of some of the allegations made against barack obama when he ran for president. In any event, hoover was 40 years old in 1914, living in london, as i say, hugely successful, restless. As i said, he was a member of the society of friends, a quaker, and he had a quaker conscience. And he was bored with just making money. He was a millionaire several times over. And he was not terribly impressed with wealth. And so in 1914, at the outbreak of world war i, he was very receptive when he was approached by some fellow engineers. The first crisis of the war was something approaching 120,000 american travelers who were in europe at the time the war broke out, who managed to make their way to london. But then they had to get home. And hoover agreed to, in effect, lead this group that put up their own funds at times, that managed to organize transportation to get all of these people out of the war zone, to get them home. And the thing to remember about this is, for all the checks he wrote, and he wrote a lot of checks, he said later on, he only like 500 wasnt repaid, which is a fraction. And it taught him a lesson for better or worse, which is the foundation on which everything that follows rests. He had an unlimited faith in the generosity, the basic goodness, and the trustworthiness of the American People. And thats important because subsequently, within a matter of weeks, he was approached about taking on an enormous task, something never before attempted. Something that no one could really put their arms around, because it was unprecedented. Belgium had been invaded early in the war by the germans. Basically, it was out of the war. There were 7. 5 Million People in belgium who faced starvation. At one point, hoover was told they were down to about five daysfood supply. In addition, there was a corner of france anyway, between the two, there were 10 Million People who confronted the real specter of starving to death. In the face of that, hoover was asked to, in effect, abandon his career for however long the war lasted, and undertake the organization of what i call an independent republic of relief. No one had any idea of the dimensions of the task. They learned that the hard way. But eventually something called the commission for the relief of belgium, or the crb, and he and remember, britain was blockading europe and germany. The germans didnt want to feed the belgians. The british were shocked anyone asked them to feed the belgians, who, after all, had been invaded by the germans. What hoover was doing, or attempting to do had never been done before. In the end, it was a four year effort that cost over 1 billion, when 1 billion was real money, much of it voluntarily raised, some of it provided by warring governments. But he kept the belgians alive. One of the things and theres so many stories. As long as he lived, he told belgian stories. I think that was a period of pure, unadulterated accomplishment and idealism. I mean, lou, for example, his partner, undertook to save the belgian lace industry. And again, they were always trying to raise funds, so basically she saw to it that there were these surreptitious factories, if you will. People were making, spinning belgian lace, which would be smuggled out of the country. People would wrap themselves in this lace under their clothes. I mean, you know, this story has everything, you know . Its a spy story. Its a humanitarian story. Its a political and diplomatic story. Hoover was not very diplomatic by nature. The interesting thing is, lou said later on that he was never the same after belgium, that what he saw, particularly the children. Remember, he was an orphan. And all his life, there was something about hoover. He was not naturally gifted in social interaction. But with children, it was a different person. And belgium stamped him, for better or worse. The other remarkable thing, and again, building on what we said earlier, it was all voluntary. I mean, he appealed to the American People. He said, again, the American People, if you tell them what you need, they will give you the shirt off their backs. And there is you go to west branch, the records are there. It is its a remarkable story of i mean, there was one group, i think they were the kansas club of new york, who were going to build a clubhouse. And instead of building themselves a clubhouse, they gave hoover the 500,000 that they had raised. And that was repeated over and over again. And again, the United States at this point, the United States wasnt in the war. They had but, again, that reinforced hoovers belief that all his life he was looking for a third way between laissezfaire capitalism, which he abhorred, and socialism, which he dreaded. And he came up with this its a terribly clunky, very hooveresque term, associational what was it . Voluntary association. N the idea that without government coercion, without legislative edict, you could approach, you could reach americans at the grass roots through churches, through community chests, through the red cross, through a whole host of volunteer organizations. That was the backbone of america. That was the strength of america. That was what gave voice to american ideals. And that was great, and it worked. And then Woodrow Wilson asked hoover to come home. He had become a phenomenon as you might imagine. And wilson entrusted him with something called the American Food administration. And he is its all voluntary. There are no ration cards in world war i. He uses propaganda. He uses public relations, this new embryonic science, to reach people and touch people and motivate people to respond to his appeals. So there were meatless mondays, and there were wheatless wednesdays. Not every campaign worked. There was a campaign, buy a pig. You know, a properly cared for pig is as sanitary as anything else. Well, the suburbs did not rise up and embrace that. Whale steak was adapted to some, not many, diets. Sugarless gum is a byproduct of the food administration. Again, the idea was, the American People would grow more, save more, and together they would basically feed their allies across the sea. The problem with that there was two problems with that. Again, it confirmed hoover in his belief, which by now was a bedrock conviction that whatever the problem, you know, you didnt need a government solution, you just needed to organize. I mean, hoover always said the test of a democracy is that its organized from the ground up, not dictated from the top down. And again, people responded. It confirmed him in his faith. Economically, the problem, the legacy was we grew, farmers grew more and more. They became addicted to foreign to surplus, you know, purchases overseas. And, of course, in the 1920s, no more war, no more european markets. Theres a slump. So there was an agricultural depression in america long before 1929. And that was one of the things that bedeviled president s throughout the period. Hoover and Woodrow Wilson became close, i mean, for what passes for close with either man. Each in his own way was almost too rational, too cerebral for the political process. They were both at versailles. Wilson and hoover was part of the delegation. And later on, years later, hoover did something no american president has ever done. In effect, the record stood until george w. Bush wrote about his dad. Hoover was the only american president to write a book about another american president. He wrote a book called the ordeal of Woodrow Wilson, which is a very sympathetic, and a bestseller. The only book hoover wrote two dozen books. That was the only one on the bestseller list. But its a fascinating and what it is in wilson that clearly appeals to hoover, its useful to know in terms of predicting many of the problems that hoover would experience in the white house. N who asked him to be commerce secretary . And how long was he there . And what impact did he have . Too interesting. The Harding Administration Warren Harding, rather touchingly, aware of his own limitations, set out to recruit a cabinet of the best men. So, i mean, Charles Evans hughes became secretary of state. And he asked hoover, and basically gave hoover a choice, and hoover picked the commerce department, which in those days was, perhaps, the least Important Department in the cabinet. Well, of course, hoover being hoover, soon there were cartoons portraying hoover as secretary of commerce and undersecretary of everything else. And he did rub a lot of feathers because he use well. He created something out of what was there, the federal radio commission. Radio is regulated because hoover started it. Forerunner of the fcc. And from the outset, he was certain that he did not want a bbc type arrangement. He did not want he wanted government to regulate the industry, but he didnt want government to run the industry, with, you know, enormous repercussions ever since. The first airfield in washington was hoover field, over where the pentagon is now. He took he wrote zoning regulations that could be adapted all over the country. He promoted the construction of new housing with standardized products. I mean, sounds kind of dull, but the fact is, something hoover was an engineer. He thought like an engineer. He ate like an engineer. In the white house, it was famous, no state dinner could last more than 60 minutes. And he once ate five courses in 13 minutes. He in the 1920s, he called his son into his office one day, his son whos he was Herbert Clark hoover, and he was Herbert Clark hoover junior. And he said, do you mind dropping your middle initial . He said, no, but why . He said, well, i have to sign my name hundreds of times a day, and i can save a few minutes if i dont have to i mean youve got to get yourself inside that kind of brain in order to understand both hoovers accomplishments and his limitations. How long was he commerce secretary . He was commerce secretary for eight years, under both almost eight years. He, at the tail end, after hed been nominated for president in 1928. But seven and a half years, under harding and coolidge. Theres a very poignant scene, and you know, who knows what might have been . Harding had Great Respect for hoover. He never he said, you never write the same gd english that i do. Well, thats im not sure that thats an insult, but in any event, but he had Great Respect for hoover. N and one thing i mentioned, both parties in 1920 flirted with the idea of nominating hoover. Wilson told his brotherinlaw that if it left to him, he would choose as his successor Herbert Hoover. And hoover talked to some democrats in 1920, but he decided he was a bull moose republican. He was a Teddy Roosevelt progressive republican. He was not standpatter. In fact, his problem with the party throughout the20s and throughout his presidency, was from the right wing of the party, that never really trusted him, and a lot of the more isolationists, too, when they held his cosmopolitan background against him. But anyway, he accompanied harding on the crosscountry voyage of understanding to alaska, where harding fell ill. And then they returned to san francisco. And its funny. Hoover harding pressed Hoover Harding was clearly impressed by something, and he couldnt get it off his chest. And so he couldnt sleep. And so he played bridge endlessly, game after game of bridge. And its funny. Hoover, who loved cards and was a mean canasta player in his later years, permanently lost his taste for bridge. Never played bridge again after harding died, because that trip had worn his tolerance for the game, but also because of the tragic consequences of the trip. Harding asked him at one point, cryptically, if you knew of some great scandal within the administration, what would you do . N and hoovers advice was to go public with it at all, totally. He said, you would at least get credit for exposing the wrongdoers. And harding didnt bring up the subject again. But it was very clear to hoover that teapot dome and the other harding scandals had broken through and were, you know. N he said, you know, later on he said, people dont die of broken hearts. But people can get exhausted and be vulnerable to heart attacks because of profound disappointment. And clearly, Warren Harding was disappointed. N the other the completion of that story. Harding died in august, 1923. Coolidge becomes president. He retains hoover. They dont have the same chemistry that harding did. Coolidge was as suspicious of activity as hoover was unwilling to be inactive. And plus, i think coolidge sensed hoovers ambition. And yet, its interesting, when the mississippi overflowed and to this day, by some measurements, still the greatest Natural Disaster in american history, 1927. The flood covered thousands and thousands of square miles in the south. There was no government agency, there was no expectation that government would respond in any way. There was only Herbert Hoover, who had this nickname, the master of emergencies. Well, this was a domestic emergency on the scale that he had dealt with overseas. So, typically, he left washington, went out into the field, organized, you know, tent cities, Railroad Cars full of food, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And its interesting because in 1928, he ran against a very impressive governor of new york, al smith, charismatic figure, in many way, seen as the father of modern liberalism before franklin roosevelt, his successor. And its you know, no one writes about 1928 without emphasizing the bigotry, the anticatholic bigotry that smith ran into, particularly in the south. And extraordinarily, you know, its not Barry Goldwater who broke the solid south, and its not dwight eisenhower. It was Herbert Hoover who carried texas and several other southern states. The assumption is that he only carried them as a measure of the anticatholic bias that existed in the deep south. And that clearly was a factor. But theres another factor that tends to get overlooked, and that is the gratitude that people in the deep south felt because hoover was the face of relief at the time of the floods. You know, the only person, really, certainly the only Person Associated with government who had tried to address their needs. I mentioned the harding story concludes in 19 they built the harding tomb, a great big, hollow drum in marion, ohio, but they couldnt get anyone to dedicate it. Coolidge wouldnt go and dedicate it. And hoover, in 1930 seven years after harding died, hoover took a train to marion, and he dedicated it. Not only did he dedicate it, but he used his speech to single out people in the audience whod been crooks in the Harding Administration, people who had hastened the president s death. I mean, it was a very gutsy thing to do. How was he picked by the Republican Party to be the candidate . And how big did he win against al smith . He was in many ways, he was a reluctant choice. But, i mean, remember, this was a guy who had, you know, fraternized with the enemy. Hed been part of Woodrow Wilsons war cabinet. This was someone who had talked seriously to democrats about 1920. In fact, theres a wonderful letter that year from Young Franklin roosevelt to a friend who had urged hoovers virtues, and fdr, genial fdr, agreeing, saying, you know, he certainly is a wonder. No one would be better than Herbert Hoover as a democratic nominee. But while hoover was not interested in being a sacrificial lamb that year. He had he knew enough about politics to know that in 1920, it was a republican year. N so, anyway, he allowed his name to be entered in the california primary against hiram johnson, a senator who was a known isolationist. And the result was a mixed bag. He had enough votes to really wound johnson and make sure that johnson would not be nominated, but not enough votes to impress the professionals. And remember, that was the famous smokefilled room convention, where a senatorial cabal, according to legend, met and by process of elimination came up with Warren Harding. Well, the fact is, hoover was never a regular republican. Again, hed been a supporter of the bull moose third party. I mean, he was that kind of you know his 1920s, the closest thing to a modern parallel would be colin powell, say, in the 1990s or early, you know, 2000. Someone who, frankly, should have made the party proud to have as a member, but whom the base would instinctively shy away from as a standard bearer. How big did he win by . He won big. He won by 61 2 million, 211 2 million votes to 15 million votes. However, beneath those numbers, there were portents for the future. One reason why al smith is held in, i think, higher regard than most unsuccessful candidates theres a real sense that smith started something. The best evidence of that cities, american cities. Calvin coolidge carried new york city. The last republican to do so. Al smith, of course, carried new york city. But he carried a lot of other cities as well. You had actually the makings of an early realignment. Had there not been the Great Depression, had hoovers reputation, in effect, not been destroyed during his single term of office, what is fascinating to speculate is, would that breakthrough in the south, would that have been a onetime event, attributable, in fact, to al smith as an opponent . Or might it, in fact, have foreshadowed a twoparty system . How did the Great Depression come about . I cant tell you. I cant answer that. And it think there are a lot of economists who would, if theyre honest, respond the same way. There are clearly a number of factors, some of which are easily identified. I mean, the dislocations of the war. We had this crazy, crazy quilt. Just a where as part of the versailles agreement, basically crushing reparations were demanded by the victors of a defeated germany, which was really in no position economically although it had been largely unscathed by the war, nevertheless. So you had this crazy system where germany is borrowing money from the United States. The United States came out of world war i the new financial centerpiece of the world. New york supplanted london. The United States came out of world war i for the first time in its history a creditor nation. The rest of the world owed it. But you had this system where american banks were loaning money to germany, which then used the money to pay off the reparations to anyway. So, in addition, domestically you had a rotten banking system, totally unregulated. There were banks that were speculating on the stock market. I mean, there were banks that were doing things with depositorsmoney that would shock us today. You had wall street speculation, rank, overheated, baseless lots of people buying stock on margin, which is to say, in effect, they were borrowing funds. And if the stock market ever went down, particularly if it went down sharply, then they would have to sell their stock to pay off what theyd bought. I mean, the whole system was jerrybuilt. Hoover believed that it was the cumulative impact of the war, the dislocations brought about the war. And its true that it was an international phenomenon. It was not limited to the United States. But i, for the life of me, cant give you a single reason. One very important contributing factor was that glut of consumer goods in the 1920s. I mean, ironically, hoover, who celebrated the abundance of modern industry. You know, cars were affordable. So were refrigerators. So were other appliances. Homes, all of those homes that he built. But lots of them were bought on credit. But more than that, radio. I mean, aviation. You had these new industries that were taking off. But the market became literally glutted. And one thing economists know, is that wages failed to keep pace with prices. So you had this gap which grew. At the same time, you had millions of people who were, in effect, overcommitted. They were living, in effect, paycheck to paycheck. They were speculating in stocks. But eventually, the purchasing power, being what it was and again, remember, the farmers were depressed and its had, you know, 40 percent. Forty percent of the American Workforce in the 1920s was in agriculture. So when you talk about that agricultural depression, nearly half the country was depressed long before wall street collapsed. One other thing that is so easy to overlook when youre looking at the failure of the economy to respond to the various stimulative efforts that hoover, and to some, even later on under fdr you have to remember how tiny a percentage of the american gdp went to the government in those days. When Herbert Hoover became president in 1929, the federal budget was less than 4 billion. And a substantial part of that was going to veterans. The reason he vetoed the veteransbonus, for which he paid a very high price and in fact, it was one of those classic cases. Youve been around this town long enough, you know there are instances where congress will pass something knowing the president will veto it . So that they dont have to take the heat. And look, the veteransbonus, which had been promised to world war i veterans, but many years down the road, i think in the 1940s. Well, of course, there was this understandable groundswell demanding an early payment of the bonus. And a 3 billion a year budget could have been doubled, and it would have been throwing a pebble into the river. I think criticism of hoover for not being sufficiently digress in exerting the potential of government to affect the economy overlooks how limited was the affect. And the other thing was, you know, like all of us, in retrospect we see all kinds of things that we didnt see at the time. Keynesian economics, the idea that government in bust times should bust the budget. In other words, that it should do everything it could, it can to boost purchasing power. Depressions are all about deflation. So if you could inflate the economy, if you know, presumably, thats the necessary medicine. But nobody knew about keynesian economics in the 1920s. And, in fact, theres a famous incident in35,36, Something Like that, when fdr meets professor keynes. And it was like this dialog of the death. I mean, he was very cordial and all that, but it was very clear that fdr wasnt intellectually a convert, neither politically a convert to keynesian economics. So, anyway, there were just there were all sorts of facts. And this is not to excuse hoover. Hoovers great failing we could talk about, you know, some of the at the time, and this is easily overlooked. Hoover exists in the shadow of fdr. Fdr did so much more. But in the context of the time, what hoover did was seen as so much more than his predecessors. Remember, wed had Great Depressions before. Martin van buren, and president james monroe when president. Grover cleveland in the 1890s had been president. The notion that the government, that the federal government especially, would step in and try to correct the Economic Cycle was heresy. Depressions were acts of god. There were booms and there were busts, and there was nothing you could do about it. And thats the philosophy that, for example, andrew mellon, who was hoovers holdover secretary of the treasury, maintained. He basically told the president just, you know, flush out the system. All the bad, the crooked bankers, the speculators, all of that, you know. I mean, that was hobbesian economics. And hoovers response was to get himself a new secretary of the treasury. He sent mellon to the court of st. James. But the other thing was, we tend to think that the stock market collapsed in october, 1929, and the next day there were bread lines. And, in fact, this was a story that took time to evolve. Early in 1930, the new york times, among other media outlets, praised hoover for doing more than any president before under the circumstances. Hoover did not believe in the boom and bust. In fact, go back to Warren Hardings administration as secretary of commerce. There was a severe recession right after world war i. And it was hoover who was, in effect, delegated with the responsibility. And what he did was, among other things, greatly increased public works spending. What you get in many ways is a foreshadow of what we associate with the new deal. Well, likewise, hoover immediately, again, voluntary association. Hoover called to the white house for job owning, dozens of the nations leading business executives. He got them to agree to undertake an increase in their commitments. And wages he went and talked to henry ford, who initially agreed to increase worker wages. He contacted all the governors of the states, the 48 states, and appealed to them to increase, stepup, accelerate public works programs. He himself went to congress and asked for 150 million, which was more than any president before him, in fact, it was more than most president s combined. And that was just the first installment. So the idea that he did nothing, you know, is pretty thoroughly disabused. So why is he, 70 to 80 years later, pilloried . Why is he indelibly, personally associated with the Great Depression . There are a number of reasons for that. One, the democrats brilliantly hired a man named Charlie Michelson who worked for, i think, the baltimore sun. And Charlie Michelson, you might say, invented negative politics in the way that you and i would understand it. Charlie michelsons sole job every day, day in and day out, was to blacken the reputation of the president , to drive home in votersminds the fact that this man was heartless. This man was responsible for the Great Depression, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Hoover unwittingly contributed to that by being i mean, hoovers great failure you could say, he had a failure of imagination. He should never have signed the smoothawley tariff in 1930, which in effect, at the worst possible time built walls around the American Economy and encouraged other countries to do the same. That was a real error of judgment. But hoovers great failing was temperamental. He tried to make a virtue out of it. He say, you can make a Teddy Roosevelt out of me. N well, go back to that 10yearold boy who didnt know that he could do something for pleasure without offending god. I always thought theres a direct connection between that and the adult hoover, who was in many ways, emotionally stunted. Hes the most improbable politician. His story is and i suppose every president is unique in his way. One of the lessons, i think, that hoovers story teaches us is, beware of successful businessmen. Because the qualities that drive business success, the ability to work with a board of directors, the knowledge that your order will be carried out, thats not the same as working with congress. Hoover had poor relations with congress, which was nominally republican the first half of his term, and then marginally democratic the second half. He didnt have the political gift. He knew he didnt have the political gift. But thats the other lesson of the hoover presidency. Hoover is one of those very rare president S William Howard taft comes to mind, sort of quasi James Madison comes to mind. People who are, again, almost too rational, too cerebral, who dont have in their dna whatever that political gene is that enables a lyndon johnson, in the most extreme example, to thrive. What were the circumstances in 1932 . Did he run again . And what happened . He ran again. Was nominated by a listless republican convention. One thing we havent mentioned, of course, is prohibition. Another issue that complicated life, particularly for the republicans, because by and large, they had a lot of rural supporters. The Republican Party was split on the issue of prohibition. Hoover, again, a cosmopolitan figure who didnt mind taking a drink, but who was sworn, unlike Warren Harding, to enforce the law. And in 1932, he was on the unpopular side of the issue. I think by 1932, there were a lot of people, including original supporters of prohibition, that concluded that this experiment had not worked, and that in many ways it has backfired. So you had, he was carrying that dead weight. He had the depression. I mean, he had his own inability to inspire. You think of fdr and radio. Well, hoover was on radio. The difference is hoover was once asked if he got excited, if he thought it exciting speaking on the radio. And he said it was as exciting as talking to a doorknob. Again, thats the literal, thats the engineer, you know . So, he ran again. The bonus army came to town, and measures are still being debated, still the subject of controversy. He dispatched Douglas Macarthur, of all people, not to cross the bridge over into anacostia and set fire to the veteranscamp, as macarthur took it upon himself to do. And hoover sent explicit orders to macarthur, and they were disobeyed. It was not the last time that Douglas Macarthur was to disobey executive authority. How big did fdr win . Fdr swept the country. Hoover had, i think it was 59 electoral votes. This man who had i mean, i dont think well, modestly, jimmy carter between76 and80 but i dont think anyone has ever gone from such an overwhelming mandate when we was elected to so powerful a consensus that he should leave office. I think roosevelt carried all but six states, and with it, congress. And then, of course, in some ways what put the seal on hoovers reputation as a failed president was the next three months. The hooverroosevelt interregnum was so bad, that the constitution was amended. If you remember, president s used to be sworn in on march 4. Well, it was decided that that was too long, because it was too long in 1932, 1933. The two men had virtually no communication. I think its safe to say hoover believed that fdr was deliberately avoiding having any responsibility in the hopes that if things did go to hell, that he would then receive the credit. And in many ways, thats exactly what happened. The irony is, the banks were crashing at the end of i mean, just the roof was falling in. And hoover could have closed the banks, but again, there was that some would say stubbornness, some would way principle. I would say lack of political finesse. But he insisted that fdr had to agree with him, that it had to be a joint undertaking. And theres a difference. Fdr, who is not only a born politician, but a natural pragmatist. Remember, its fdr who says, try something. If it doesnt work, try something else, but above all, try something. Well, that is exactly what the American People wanted to hear after four years in which it was felt that nothing had been tried. In fact, a lot was tried, but it came very soon to be overshadowed by the scale, the scope of what fdr undertook. What were the circumstances in your life in 1984 when this book was published . Gosh, i was living in dc. I had published a big biography of thomas dewey that i had spent a year researching. Came back to dc, was writing on a consultant basis for bob dole, for whom id worked earlier, and with whom im very proud to say ive been associated over the years. It just seemed to me, you know, id done this book on tom dewey, who on some ways was the ultimate, overlooked historical figures. I mean, the little man on the wedding cake. Someone stereotyped and written off, who turned out to have a vastly more interesting and consequential life. And so, in many ways, hoover was a very logical sequel. I didnt really think about it at that time. I had no political agenda. I visited west branch as an adolescent, and been really moved by the site, and its still moving. Talking about west branch. West branch, iowa, where hoover was born and where hes buried. And the 450 yards separate the two. The birthplace is a little 14 by 20 foot, the size of the average american living room today. A little whitewashed cottage. And then 450 yards away on a hillside called the overlook are the very simple graves of president and mrs. Hoover. And he made one wish known, and that was that nothing ever be planted or built that would interfere with the view. He wanted people to stand at his grave and look off at the little house where he was born, and draw the conclusion that he had drawn, that what set american apart was the fact that the circumstances of your birth in no way limited the potential of your life. Its 1984 when you wrote this book, or thats when it was published. When did you run the Hoover Library museum, and why . Well, and in fact, out of this book, i guess, i had no idea at the time that i was planting a seed of what would be a 17year career at five president libraries. I was called by john fawcett, who was himself from west branch, iowa, and who was then at the national archives, running the president ial library system, which was a good bit smaller in those days. And he asked me, out of the blue, id never been more surprised in my life, would you have any interest in being director of the Hoover Library . And i thought immediately, what a wonderful job. Now, people around me i was, at that point, i was working at pete wilsons office, senator of california, writing speeches. And people thought why on earth would you want to go live in west branch, iowa, population 1,800 . Which tells you more about them than it did about west branch. In any event, i left washington and went out and had a whale of a time, spent sixplus years learning my trade in west branch, making some friends for life. And, so i did it in reverse. I wrote the book, and then became director of the library. And that was the first of several. What would you say was the most significant, and we only have a minute and a half, the most significant thing that hoover did that is still in this country, to this day . Well, you could look physically at hoover dam. And it was no accident that his name was put on it, because he, as secretary of commerce, negotiated a compact with seven states, Rocky Mountain states, over the water of the colorado river, that they were all fighting over. Water being dear in the west then and now. Anyway, the result was hoover dam. Thats the most obvious physical legacy. Much more important, i would argue, however, is the example of a businessman who walked away from his fortune he said literally, let the fortune go to hell first, to feed belgium, and then to organize american relief, and ultimately to go on to save more lives than hitler, stalin and mao together could eliminate. Not a bad epitaph. Thank you, Richard Norton smith, for helping us with our series on president s. The name of the book, and it is available on amazon and other places as a used book. This one, by the way, comes from a library in milford, michigan, the one that i have. And the name of the book is, an uncommon man the triumph of Herbert Hoover. And we thank you very much. Thank you