To bring former nazis to justice. They explored questions raised by recent trials, such as if perpetrators are ever too old or frail to prosecute, and whether it ever too late for accountability. Speakers at this event included a holocaust survivor, a Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist, and a documentary filmmaker. Good evening, everyone. My name is jessica abraham. Im very pleased to welcome all of you in the audience, as those as well as those of you watching online. I want to recognize the embassy of canada, cosponsor of tonights program. You will hear from a representative of the embassy a little later in the evening. I also had the pleasure of serving as cochair of the museums lenders community. The institution and the museum is one that not only honors the victims of the holocaust, but stands as a stark reminder of the importance and relevance of the lessons of the holocaust. The museum has found impelling ways to engage many audiences, audiences one would never expect, people from every background. While the engagement is grounded in holocaust history, it serves as a powerful springboard to focus on genocide issues. The museum is also a stark reminder that pursuing never again is unending. At a time when hatred and antisemitism is clearly on the rise around the world, we must all be willing to stand up, at a time when social media and a rapidly changing world magnify that hate. The museums motto what you do matters reflects that idea and asks each of us to be part of that solution, to make this world a better place. Our amazing and outstanding panel, comprised of an Investigative Reporter, a filmmaker, and a former nazi hunter, will explain what it means to achieve justice 75 years after the defeat of nazi germany. The conversation will last 15 minutes. To the extent you have a question, please write it on a card. We will find copies of the recent and highly acclaimed book the hunt for killers soldiers in america. I have read debbieis book. It is my honor to introduce our speaker irene weiss. Soviet troops approached auschwitz seventy five years ago. While the atrocities there had been documented worldwide, people struggled to leave them. The world eventually recognize the magnitude and horror of the holocaust. She has devoted her life to telling her stories through to as many people as possible. Without further ado, it is my pleasure and honor to introduce irene weiss. [applause] thank you very much for inviting me here tonight. In 2015 and 2016, i was asked to testify in the trials my family and i were part of the hunt gary and transport to auschwitz that arrived during the time they worked there. In addition to being a coplaintiff, i needed to have had close family members who were murdered there. I was not required to recognize them, who served as guards while i was a prisoner in auschwitz. I, along with other coplaintiffss was called to testify about what we saw in the role they played as guards in facilitating the efficient process of genocide. In the spring of 1944, my family was deported to auschwitz from hungary. I was 13 years old. Upon arrival at the camp, my mother and four siblings were taken to the gas chamber and killed along with hundreds of others. My father was forced to work as a commando, removing corpses from the gas chamber. I learned later he was shot and killed. My 17yearold sister, serena, and i were selected for slave labor. We work in the storage warehouse in birkenau located near crematorium number four and five. Our job was to sort thousands of belongings, preparing the belongings to be shipped back to germany. We worked there for eight months. Day and night columns of Young Mothers with children took their last steps as they passed through our barracks that led to the gas chamber. My brain could not absorb what i was seeing. In january 1945, as the russian army approached, auschwitz was evacuated and we were forced with thousands of others on a death march deeper into germany, officially ending in a camp. Evidence of the trial established that from 1941 until 1944, groening worked as a socalled bookkeeper of auschwitz. He was taking the money and valuables taken from prisoners. He also worked on the selection ramp. The others monitored prisoners as they were selected for work or sent to the gas chambers. He also helped control people during the separation of families. It was on record that groening denied any responsibility. He said he was morally guilty, but not legally. He said he worked out of a sense of duty and was just following orders. He believed the jews were enemies of the german people. He did his part. Reverting to nazi jargon from when he worked at auschwitz, never saying gassing or murder. He described witnessing an ss guard bashing a babys head against the side of a truck and actually described it as inappropriate. After all, he observed, the baby could have been killed in a less messy way. For instance, by shooting. This was his way of showing that he had empathy. Showing that he had empathy. He showed the mass killing of thousands of babies and others was not a cause for any reflection or regret on his part. Unlike groining, who gazed around the courtroom, hanning never looked up at all. Some interpreted this as contempt. Others felt he was overwhelmed. None of us knew what to think. His job had been to guard the camp. Experts testified that his ss group was on duty when the deportation trains arrived. Without the guards, the mass murder would not have been possible. He had a leadership role and performed his work so well, he was promoted twice during his time there. My memory of the guard as a 13yearold was terrifying, with their tall, shiny boots and elegant uniforms. They have contempt for us. They have complete power over life and death. They looked at us with contempt. You did not look them in the eye. At the trials, i instead encountered a couple frail old men in wheelchairs accompanied by a nurse. But these old men had been wearing but if these old men had been wearing their nazi uniforms, i wouldve trembled and all the horror i experienced as a child in auschwitz would have returned. Anyone who wore that uniform in that place represented terror and the death the depths to which humanity can sink. So, why had i agreed to testify . I was hoping to hear regrets that they are dissipated in a monumental tragedy. They were also participated in a monumental tragedy. I also hoped they were suffering from their memories of that time. I wanted to hear from them and the others who testified about what the consequences were of what they did. Looking back, did they feel misled by the evil laws and the ideology of the time . Did they regret the part they played in that evil . Did they have lessons to impart to the world of today to resist the effects of mass indoctrination. I was looking to confront and face a person who participated in the destruction of my family. During both trials, photographs of my mother and siblings, taken by nazi guards on the day of our arrival were displayed on overhead screens, becoming part of the Permanent Court record and clearly visible to the defendants. We never received any answers to the question. Groning and hanning did not seem to grasp the perspective of a lifetime, the full moral implication of what they had done as young men. This recurring human failure to take responsibility for evil acts or even to properly distinguish between good and evil one under the influence of nationalism and propaganda makes it the more important on the alert against these forces. A whole generation of journalists, the children and grandchildren of perpetrators of the nazi genocide heard very little from their parents and grandparents about what they had done in auschwitz and other factories of death. It is time, at long last, to stop suppressing this history. One positive aspect of testifying was the close relationship my family and i developed with the german prosecuting attorneys. Their compassion and sense of mission helped to see me through the ordeal of the trial. The outpouring of support from the german public was also gratifying when the survivors arrived each day to the court. The local citizens were lined up around the block, waiting to get in. The trials were widely covered by the german media and i can only help they contributed to the education of the german public about this dark. Dark period in history. To that end, i joined other survivors, government officials last week for the 75th commemoration of the liberation of auschwitz. Our presence in that place, the symbol of ultimate evil further added to the worlds understanding of what happened there. One observation. The german courts were careful to ensure that these two old men received due process related to their health and age. My family and millions of others, jewish civilians, were enslaved and killed without any due process at all. Thank you so much for listening. [applause] good evening. Am i on . Good evening. I would like to thank mrs. Irene weiss for your moving and courageous and inspirational work. Justice is much more than an abstract concept. We cannot lose sight as we are discussing it of the human toll these crimes represent and the pain experienced by these survivors and their families do not have a statute of limitations. Let me begin to my left with debbie. Debbie is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter who contributes to the Washington Post, and the author of an new book citizen 865 the hunt for hitlersof soldiers in america. I took it on a work trip. I read it all on one plate appeared its that good. Debbie is the newly named director of investigative reporting at northwest university, so welcome, debbie. We are also delighted to be joined by ricky gerwigs. Ricky is an experienced Television Producer and i would like to congratulate you on your first feature documentary. We are pleased to recognize rickyas coproducer in the audience. Currently ricky is a producer at the monk debates, the Worlds Largest public debate forum. Last, but not least, dr. Barry white, Senior Historian at the holocaust museum. Terry is the chief historian down the street at the u. S. Department of justice. So, we have a lot to learn tonight. Before i turned to the panel though, i do want to note that in a tremendous stroke of serendipity we could not have timed the scheduling of the panel much better. Some of you may have seen in the Washington Post last week a great story by debbie or others, about a truly unique and groundbreaking collection of perpetrator materials. Some 361 photographs and documents collected by the commandant of killing center. What you are looking at this morning, on the screen, is just from this morning. This morning we have them delivered to the collection facility. You see the gloved hands of our supporters. This is the kind of material that was evidenced in the trials and prosecution we are describing today. Truly a momentous day for this museum and this field. Debbie, lets begin with you. To write your book, outage you first get interested in the topic echo what brought you to the store and the topic . What brought you to this story . Thank you debbie think you for the question. I was at a Cocktail Party in maryland in the last two moments of 2016. I fell into a conversation with a Justice Department lawyer who, over the course of about two hours, started telling me about this unit inside of the Justice Department that had spent 30 or so years hunting for nazi war criminals and i remember thinking two things. One was how is it possible that 70plus years after the end of the war we were finding nazi war criminals and collaborators in the United States. As a journalist, i was intrigued by the people doing the work particularly the historians as an Investigative Reporter i dig through documents for a living and i really wanted to know people who had spent the all of their professional careers searching for these people. How had they spent day after day and year after year of living through some of the darkest moments in history and going home to their husbands and children. How was it possible to balance those things. And in your book you follow those threads. One about the processes. And how you came up with strategies to look at cases about which we may not have had jurisdiction. Ricky, how did the film the accountant of auschwitz come about, and how was this a story you set about to tell at the outset . I was working as a Television News producer in canada. In april, 2015, we get tickers every day that tell us what the main headlines are that said, auschwitz guard goes on trial in germany. I thought, he is guilty. What is the point of a trial. The more i read about his case, but also his story and legal precedent that allowed him to be prosecuted i thought, wow. Theres a lot more here than just our clothes, closed case. Theres a lot to unpack and moral and legal ambiguity and i think that a documentary might be a great place to explore that gray area. For those who have not seen the film, it uses this trial to get at the failure of the german prosecutors after the war in going after the perpetrators and how this new generation has tried to rectify that by interpreting the law in a different way, but also the people who are therefore being prosecuted are the lower level guards, the people who were not necessarily pouring the cycle into the gas station, but the people like Oskar Groning or hanning who made sure the camp was running efficiently. Who are also complicit. So, thats how i came to that. The story. And im sorry whether it was the story could tell, how it unfolded. There werei do feel quite fortunate to say that the story we told is the one we wanted to from the beginning. I am quite pleased in that. Instead of talking about the film, lets have a look at a clip from it, one that gets to some of these existential questions about, is it ever too late to pursue justice . How low is someone in the hierarchy, and what is that guilt . Lets have a look. It is too little, too late. This needed to be done a long time ago. But how ridiculous is it that they are doing it now, when these people are all in their 90s . music so how do we get to the point that there is such a trial as the Oscar Groening case . I would like to turn to you, barry. You are a historian, not a prosecutor. I know this is not the career path that you initially had in mind. What initially brought you to this work and since osi, the office of special investigations, the former name of this doj office, it was only established in 1979 how did you and your colleagues grapple with some of these questions, about, is it too little too late, how old is someone . I did not set out thinking that i was going to investigate nazi crimes. In college i studied european history and languages, and one of the things that really got me to focus more on german history was the experience of growing up in the segregated south. My parents worked for desegregation and civil rights, so from an early age i recognized the cruelty and evil of racism, and i wrestled with the question of why so many people i knew who were themselves kind and consider themselves good christians and patriotic americans would go along and even support a system that seems obviously contrary to their values. German history, in the early 20 century early 20th century, provides the ultimate example as to why these civilized, and supposedly educated people to send into persecution to genocide, which we would like to think is the most uncivilized of behaviors. I went to graduate school and specialized in german history, wrote on a military topic not great choices in terms of finding a lucrative career, but as it turns out, osi considered my knowledge of the german army and ability to read old german handwriting to be an asset. When i was given the opportunity to help the chiefs in measure it justice for the victims of racism, i felt so lucky and honored to have work to do that i was fully committed to it. How long did you end up doing this unexpected, unplanned thing . When we were hired, we were told the office will last three to five years of most. I worked there for 29 years. The question about the age of perpetrators we got that a lot. A lot of people challenged us about the push back we got. People would say, why are you going after these poor old men for something that they did decades ago . And i would generally respond yeah, i agree with you. It would have been much better if they had been brought to account backt in the day. If they had not been able to lie about their activities and get visas, they might have gone to actual refugees or victims. But when do you suggest that we set a time limit, after which you say to a perpetrator, congratulations. You avoided justice long enough, now you can just let out your life and live in peace amongst us. This is a question that doesnt come up around other types of perpetrators. Debbie writes in her book about my colleague, mike bernstein, who was murdered when terrorists blew up pan am flight 103, 30 years ago. Of 20 years from now, we find someone here who had some role in the plots, nobody is going to say, poor thing, we should not prosecute that person, that the person is the advanced age somehow outweighs the right of the victims and their families to justice. The work i did , that this country, which for centuries has provided a refuge to the persecuted, will not willingly be a safe haven for those who persecute them. And to clarify for the audience and people who may not be as familiar with the basis on which osi was persuing these perpetrators, you are not actually charging them with crimes related to the holocaust. What was their violation . You mentioned visas. Nazi crimes do not fall under the jurisdiction of u. S. Courts, so the governments only remedy is to try to take away their citizenship and remove them from this country. You cant take away peoples citizenship against their will. You have to show that they acquired it illegally. In osis cases, most of the defendants came in under immigration programs that specifically barred anyone who had participated in persecuting nazi victims. So what osi sought to prove was that these people had participated in persecution and then gotten their visas by concealing that activity. So in fact it is there violation of their application. Thats right. We prosecute it under civil Immigration Law because the statute of limitations on criminal violations had run by the time osi was only is a humorous personal side note, i will say that within the last 10 years i have helped sponsor my husband for a green card, the one i was born in the midsixties. In his application, it asked if he had ever been a member of the nazi party between 1933 and 1945. It is still on the application. I do get shows how seriously we take this. Debbie, you write about a specific set of osi cases, ones involving the socalled men who were trained by the ss. Can you explain why you zeroed in on these particular cases, what is their significance . It was part of the history of the holocaust that we did not know much about here in the west until historians like barry and others at osi really put the pieces together, at least understood the details. Try sneaky troizcneki was basically a school for mass murder, and then the ss recruited a number of civilians, Eastern European civilians and Red Army Soldiers who had been captured and placed in pow camps, they brought them to this area, where they were trained, they were armed, and ultimately deployed across occupied poland to do some of the dirtiest and most brutal work in operation reinhard, the plan to murder the jews in occupied poland. We now know that more of a dozen of them slipped into the United States after the war and were living very normal lives with american wives and American Children and pensions and Social Security card. One worked at the crackerjack company in chicago, jacob reimer, the subject of my book citizen 865, was a wise potato chip Franchise Owner in manhattan. One worked at the ford motor company. And i will add that the collection i referenced at the beginning, the perpetrator collection, the reason it is significant, we see photographs of up to 400 men who served as auxiliary guards and we see them relaxed, proud, socializing with their ss supervisors, so it gives us quite vivid evidence that these are not men who are being forced to do this murderous work against their will. Right. They liquidated the jewish ghettos brutally. They participated in mass murder, shooting operations in the woods, and they guarded the perimeters of the death camps, and in some case operated the gas chambers as longtime historian here, peter black, who worked at osi and spent years looking for these men, he calls them the foot soldiers of the third reich. I think that is exactly what they were. Ricki, we saw a photo of the most familiar name, john. Your story is about the trial of a german perpetrator, but you also show more about various trials of this man. Can you tell us about what that helped you to tell in terms of the story . Hes a very interesting subject matter there he is. As you mentioned, he was one of these men. He was not german. He was a prisoner of war and they gave him two options. One, go fight on the Eastern Front or two, go and work in a concentration camp. Well, he did not want to fight on the Eastern Front, so he chose the concentration camp. He ended up, john ended up at sobibor, and im interested to see those photos to see if we see him in any of these photos. But what made him so important to the german prosecution, that made him able to be prosecuted in germany was the german prosecutors for a long time couldnt prosecute anyone who was an accessory to murder. German law basically mandated that you needed to prove that the person, a specific person had committed a specific crime against someone else, but also they were motivated by racial hatred. That is very difficult to prove in a court of law. They prosecuted it as murder. Think of how you prosecute murder in an every day trial. You need witnesses, right . You need dates, times, all these things to convince the judge and the jury of the crime. When you are prosecuting someone who committed this terrible thing in a concentration camp against victims who didnt even know what year it was, let alone what day and what time it was, it is very hard to create the kind of case against them that was needed in order to convict them. In addition to their not being an appetite in germany after the war to convict anyone german law and the German Justice system made it very difficult to prosecute any perpetrators. If they cannot even go after the big man, the man who actually do the killing, then people like john and oscar who were just guards are never being prosecuted. They are so far off the map, why would they be . What happened was, johns case really changed how the german court interpreted these cases. What happened was, and this is in large part due to Eli Rosenbaum and very and the doj they went and said, we found this guy. We know he was an accessory to murder. We know he helped the camp function. Eli said this one thing that sticks with me he said, if you are in my office and you are holding the door closed while someone else is running, chasing me and trying to kill me, you are an accessory to murder. All these guards that are making sure that victims who were coming off the train in auschwitz or other camps, they were maintaining order and maintaining a shroud of secrecy so that no one knew was going to happen to them, they are accessory to murder. German prosecutors decided to take this, these specifics, this specific argument to the court. They brought john to trial and he was convicted. His guilty conviction changed the course of the german legal system with regards to the prosecution of nazi war criminals. That is the really long version. I want to take a moment to remind those of you in the audience to please, if you have questions, write it on index cards. Staff will be collecting it so we can answer at the end. Lets have a look at another clip from the accountant of auschwitz. This ones shows a professor of law at amherst college, Lawrence Douglas, talking about some of these questions. [video clip] what was very important about the trial in germany was, in a way, it was the exact opposite of the ivan the terrible trial. The ivan the terrible trial focused on the particular pathologies of a very brutal guard. The trial in munich was really the first trial to really come along and say, we do not care if you are cruel or not. Your Job Description was basically facilitating an active extermination, and that is why we are going to hold you guilty in the court of law. You are accessory to murder because by definition, that was your Job Description. Just to be sure that we are clear, the first trial, the socalled ivan the terrible trial, was a trial held in israel for john, where he was mistakenly identified as a perpetrator that had served at tripling the, and was tried and convicted in a munich court in 2011. One of the osi reacher jurors says, maybe he is not ivan the terrible, but maybe he is john or ivan the not as terrible. The slightly less terrible of the sobibor death camp. He was trained and then deployed to other camps. Can you elaborate more on some of these legal precedents, and what guided your work at osi . I would just say that what Lawrence Douglas was talking about there, it goes to what rikki was explaining about german law. For so many decades, german prosecutors assumed that they could only prosecute someone if they could show that person had directly murdered someone and not just that, that they had acted out of a base motive or acted in an excessively cruel manner. Ivan the terrible would fit that. He conducted the gassings, he was exceedingly sadistic. But ivan of sobibor would not fit that, because there was not evidence that he had specifically killed anyone. In osis cases, what we had to show technically, we could have just gone after people for lying about serving in a german unit during world war ii. Early on, it was determined that we would only go after people who, where we felt that we had clear and convincing evidence, that they had participated in persecuting nazi victims. In some cases we were able to show murder, but in most of our cases, osi argued and courts agreed that service in a unit that existed primarily for the purpose of verse accusing people purpose of persecuting people, like a police unit that carried out mass shooting or a deaths head guard unit at a concentration camp, that service constituted persecution, because it helps the unit achieve its purpose. So within the case of john, our argument was that through his service, not only at sobibor but at others, he had participated in the murder and persecution of the victims at those places. We should give credit to the two german investigative judges who came to osi and looked at our evidence and talked to us and realized that there was a recent precedent in a 9 11 case in germany that would let them bring the case. People hear you say 9 11, what does that have to do with rikki told me about it. It is quite interesting, when you think about the prosecution of former nazi guards, you do not think how 9 11 might have influenced it. But this is actually something that Thomas Walter told me Thomas Walter is the prosecutor in germany who represented the plaintiff and some of the others i think there were 50 plaintiffs at the groaning trial. He sought them out and represented them of the trial. He met with Eli Rosenbaum at the department of justice did he meet with you as well . Yes. These are real heroes in germany. The first time i met with him, he explained the 9 11 connection. In germany, there was this man named. He didnt fly the planes into the world trade center, however, he was taking care of the Bank Accounts of those, his friends from germany who were part of al qaeda who did go and fly the planes into the world trade center. He was making sure that there was no, that the government did not have any kind of suspicion over their bank account or wire transfers. He also paid their rent in their apartment so no one would ask any questions. He ended up being prosecuted as complicit to 9 11 and was found guilty, and this case led prosecutors in germany to think, ok if we can broaden this out, if that is what accessory to murder is, why cant we use the same rationale to go after the german concentration camps . The german death camps . This also shows the way that history and the way that we deal with it is constantly evolving as we discover new evidence and also as we discover new approaches. Debbie, i would like you to read an excerpt from your book, from citizen 865 if you could, to help us here understand the difference between german and nongerman perpetrators, knowing that both were necessary in order to carry out a crime of the magnitude of the holocaust. This is an excerpt about the men serving in the death camps of occupied poland. It starts it was the Assembly Line killing that he had imagined. Only a few dozen ss personnel managed each killing center. These men did the rest. Unloading the train cars long into the night and shooting, beating, and screaming at thousands of people stumbled towards their deaths. Some guards use valuable looted from prisoners to buy shops, chicken, sausage, and Sexual Services from polish women. Others deserted the unit, but the truck making commander had build a mostly reliable force. It was the manpower the u. S. The ss needed. I will pause a beat after that. Debbie, barry, could you describe for those not familiar with this chapter of history what the dynamics were between some of these trawniki men and the german officers with whom they served, other nongerman collaborators, a little bit about hierarchy and retribution and protocol . You know, as i thought when i was researching this book, that i would feel that they were kind of forced into duty. What i learned during the reporting of this book, in my research, is that trawniki men like jacob reimer, citizen 865, he received paid vacations. He received four service medals. He was allowed to go home unescorted to see his family, came back on his own and continued to loyally serve the third reich. He stayed on until the very end. In fact, in 1944, he was granted citizenship in nazi germany. I think he probably not he would go to germany thought he would go to germany as a decorated war hero. These issues up i was forced to do it, if i didnt do it i would have been the next one shot, those fell apart when i started researching and learning more about this unit. They received german field pay, they obviously were armed and received basic leave. They had Family Support payments, they could go to the movies, go to the brothels, so they were definitely and what i love about the new sobibor photos that show the trawniki men, they were not beleaguered soviet pows. Half of them were civilian recruits, not pows. The relationship with the german personnel there varied, especially with what they were doing was so violent, you could imagine that these men got pretty vicious and difficult to control, many of them. But some were looked upon as trustworthy and were promoted and given command over others, so it varied. Maybe as many as 20 actually deserted. If they were recaptured and had not deserted with their guns, they were sent back to trawniki men and put back into service. Something i always got from the historians, there was no way the ss could have killed so many people so quickly without the help of their collaborators, the trawniki men. 1. 7 million jews were killed in operation reinhard in fewer than 20 months, which is the span of two polish summers. I always think about that number, because it couldnt have happened without the men of trawiniki. And that a place like so we sobibor, you had so many trawniki men that did the work of murder. Some of the most chilling photos we have are not from sobibor, but show these auxiliary guards on a field trip. A bonus for good behavior, a good performance junkets they take with some of their ss supervisors. There is a whole album of photographs showing them not just alone, but with wives and girlfriends on a field trip to berlin, picnicking by the side of the road, they have this nice time back in civilization and return to their jobs. Now murder on an industrial scale. Carrying out murder on an industrial scale. The cognitive dissonance is chilling. Lets take a look at this clip, which talks about that i was just following orders excuse or defense. [video clip] as far as following orders, what one often hears is i had to take part in these crimes, because had i not done so, the germans would have executed me or sent me to a death camp. One of the most remarkable statistics to emerge out of the holocaust is the number of ss officers or even senior german officers who suffered serious, lifethreatening consequences as a result of opting out. That number is exactly zero. Not one instance has ever been found in which it was confirmed that anyone who deserted was subject to severe punishment, much less execution. What is your reaction to this clip . It is certainly true. That is not to say that people did not face consequences for opting out. It was obviously not a good career move and was likely to get you assigned to a unit on the Eastern Front. But it shows that people have choices. It was actually in the german military, because its soldiers did not have to follow illegal orders. In times like that, it is very difficult to make the right choice, especially if you think that by making the wrong choice and going along, you are not going to suffer personally any negative consequences. That is why it is so important to build up a consistent practice throughout the world of prosecuting those perpetrators of mass atrocities, so that we can create that expectation, that if they make the wrong choice they will face consequences and then maybe that will motivate them to say hey, you know what . We could get in trouble for this. Im not buying in. You described that, barry, it reminds me very much of the work of christopher browning, a historian whose works the deep into war trials of perpetrators who served in mobile killing squads. He demonstrates with evidence that when there are commanders who are lessons is he asked it or clearly on endorsing of mass shooting of civilians, many, many more men step out and say, i will not do this or cannot keep doing this after the first day. These are case studies we use at the holocaust museum