Transcripts For CSPAN3 Trail Of Tears 20240713

Next on American History tv, trail of Tears Association president jack baker talks about the forced relocation of native americans in the early 19th century. Mr. Baker, a member of the jericho nation, also talks about his familys and voluntary move Cherokee Nation, also talks about his familys and voluntary move to oklahoma. This is brought to you by the Virginia Museum of history and culture, along with preservation virginia. I am pleased to introduce jack baker, where he represents the charity citizens residing outside of the Cherokee Nation. He is a National President of the trail of Tears Association. He is the current president of the Oklahoma Historical society and served on a number of other boards. He has done Extensive Research he has done extensive Cherokee Research for more than 50 years and has authored articles and edited several books on cherokee history. I can say he continued his Research Even yesterday at the library of virginia, so it gives me pleasure to introduce jack baker. [applause] councilor baker thanks, elizabeth. It is an honor to be part of this symposium. But i come before you as a citizen of the United States and also a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, and i an eighth generation oklahoman because of the trail of tears. At the time of our forced removal, the cherokees own owned farms and even plantations. As lindsay pointed out, the constitution adopted patterns out of the United States, and, as lindsay also stated, almost every family of the Cherokee Nation had at least one literate member, and it compared to the high illiteracy rate of the states surrounding the Cherokee Nation. So with publication, we begin in 1828 of our newspaper, the cherokee phoenix, the cherokees became wellinformed of the issues of removal. By 1819, our people had ceded 90 of our original lands, so by the time of removal, the little dark area at the bottom is all that was left. So these remaining lands we sought to keep, while our white neighbors sought to have them removed. The Supreme Court in the 1832 decision, the case of worcester v georgia, recognized that the Cherokee Nation, yet even this did not save us from the treaties signed by a of charities, with major rich as one of the principal leaders. The signers, as lindsay stated, had no authority to speak for the Cherokee Nation, yet congress ratified this treaty on may 18, 18 36, by only a single vote, and it was signed by president Andrew Jackson on may 23, and the cherokees were given two years from that date to remove. Our principal chief and Tribal Council continued their efforts to oppose removal but to no avail. In late may of 1838, general Winfield Scott and his troops began to round up our people. The removal force had been constructed throughout the Cherokee Nation as places to temporarily contain the cherokees as they were geared up for removal. Several of these forces had been constructed a couple of years before during the creek removal. Several hundred creeks had fled into the Cherokee Nation to avoid removal, and soldiers throughout the Cherokee Nation and an attempt to find them, so they sometimes question as to whether or not the cherokees did not go ahead and remove asked whether they were aware of the what was being constructed. Reverend stephen foreman, who was a half blood cherokee, who had been educated in the Mission Schools in the Cherokee Nation, and later at princeton, wrote the following letter, may 31 of 1838, in this cree commission, the reverend david green, whose very dear sir, from the date of my letter, shall see that im still in the Cherokee Nation and still in the neighborhood of the cree commission, how much longer we should be permitted to remain here on our own lands, to enjoy our rights and pledges, i do not know. From the present aspect of affairs, we shall very soon be without house and home. Indeed, ever since the 23rd of may, we have been looking almost daily for the soldiers to come and turn us out of our houses. They have already warned us to make arrangements and come into the camps before we were forced to do so, but i have stated distinctively to the officers at headquarters what i thought of this socalled treaty and what course i intend to pursue in the event that no new treaty was made, and i see no reasons yet why i should change my mind. My determination and the determination of the large majority of the Cherokee Nation is never to recognize this instrument of treaty, nor remove under it until we are forced to do so at the point of a bayonet. It may seem unwise and hazardous to the framers of this instrument that we should pursue such a course, but i am satisfied is the only one we can pursue with a clear conscience. Reverend daniel buck tree wrote, in georgia, they are supposed to be 8000 cherokees. They were taken, just as they were found by soldiers, without permission from friend or property. As soldiers advanced, to little children fled in fright to the woods. A woman pleaded permission or waited until they came in, giving positive assurances, but all the treaties were in vain, and it was not until a day or two after that she would get permission for one of her friends to go back after her lost children. A man death and down, surprised by armed men, attempted to escape them and because he did not hear and obey the commands of his pursuers, was shot dead on the spot. Women were seized, and men, far from their wives and children, were not allowed to return. And also, children being forced from homes, were dragged off among strangers. Cattle, horses, hogs, household furniture, clothing, and money were taken when left, and it is said they should, whatever was left around, should seize whatever property they could put their hands on. Some friends who could speak for them insisted afterwards and getting some part of the lost goods. That is, but after two or three days come about 8000 people, many of whom were in good circumstances, and some rich, were rendered homeless, house list, and penniless and exposed to all the ordeals of captivity. And a few months later, lucy haynes butler, the wife of dr. Liza butler, wrote to a childhood friend in massachusetts. Liza butler was in worcester and prison, and i was happy to see that lindsay mentioned him as part of this, because, i assume because of the case of worcester versus georgia, it has unfortunately been sacrificed of the most part, overlooked. The part of lucys letter, i grieve the inner missionary laborers in 1827. I arrived among the cherokees and engaged in teaching and remained there until they entered into a married state in 1830 and removed to a mission station just west in georgia. Here, my husband was shut up in prison by the authorities of georgia for refusing to take an oath against the cherokee or to leave his situation or his station, which was in the chartered limits of that state. After a year and a half at the penitentiary, he returned, but after a little more than a year, the same law, which had sent him to prison, found means to break up our mission station. We had an invitation from the cherokees, and the method of taking cherokees prisoner were various. And she goes on to state, it was common for a party of soldiers, with a wagon attached to the train, to be sent to a certain neighborhood. At arriving to the house, the inmates were ordered to march. Sometimes they were allowed to take some light articles to be conveyed in the wagon, but many times, they were not allowed to take as much as a change of clothes with them. If their horses were at hand, they were often permitted to ride them, but as often as not, they were driven on foot at the point of the bayonet. The parents could not convey their children on horses or on their own backs, they were ordered to get into the wagon, and if any reluctance was shown by them, they were drawn in by the soldiers and then driven over the rough road with such speed that in some instances, they have been severely injured. And perhaps the pers were driven with more haste from their dwellings on account of frequent rumor of native hostilities. This has led the soldiers to gather some neighborhoods in the night. To accomplish this, they would enter a cherokee dwelling, and the families in the midst of their slumbers would be aroused for their march. They would be grouped together, the aged, infirm, middleaged, youth, and children of all sizes. Together, the people in such haste, whether by night or by day, has been the occasion of much distress and loss of property. Husbands and wives, parents and children have been separated and carried off to different camps, where they have known nothing of each other for weeks or months. So they were first taken to 31 stockades constructed throughout the Cherokee Nation, and the conditions were deplorable. People had no shelter, only a few blankets, what they were able to grab at as they were being forced from their homes, and inadequate food. These stockades were referred to as concentration camps, and it may have been the first time that this term was used. From these holding stockades, there cherokees were taken to 11 interment camps. 10 of these were in tennessee, and the remaining one was in alabama. On may 31, this tells of one group taken to the internment camp. Astoundingly, a little bit before sunset, a company driven into our lane, it had been raining, and of course all men, women, and children were dripping wet, with no change of clothing, and scarcely a blanket fit to cover them, and some of the women, when taken from their houses, had on their coarse dress. This, of course, was their clothing for a journey of about 800 miles. As soon as permission was obtained from officers, we opened every door to these poor sufferers. Mothers brought their dear little face to our fire, and stripped off their coverings to dry. Their little lips blue and trembling with cold, seemed yet to smile with gratitude for this kind reception. So i would like to tell you how the removal affected my fourth great grandfather, james hair. Family tradition states that his motherinlaw, lindsay bradley, gave birth to a baby girl right after removal or after the round up started, and while being driven to one of the internment camps, she became too weak to go any further and refused to cross the stream. She was stabbed by one of the soldiers and died soon after. And reverend butrick at this time states, we also learned that when the last company were taken over the river, the woman in the pains of childbirth stood and walked as long as possible, and then fell in the base of the river. The soldier stabbed her with his bayonet, which together, with other pains, soon caused her death. James hair had married her daughter only a few months before, and lindsays other five children accompanied james and his wife and was reared by them. So in mid june, three groups of about 800 each started west from the landing to chattanooga, tennessee. Two by water around markson ben, and the other crossed on the road. Of that group, only 635 arrived in the west, with 146 deaths and two births being reported. There was a severe drought at the time with extreme heat, and katie along with her husband, was in this group. Her father, william nourse, was a white man, who had married a cherokee woman about 60 years before. A couple of month before, he had been described of being upwards of 100 years and completely blind for the last 25 years. There is no record of his arriving in the west, however, in a series of interviews conducted in the chattanooga area around 1900, a mr. A. G. Carter tells this story. A white man married an indian and later became blind. He, says mr. Carter, heard that they threw him in the river and drowned him on the way west because he was so much trouble. So because of the high casualties of these first groups, permission was given to later removal of the other groups until fall, when it would be cooler. Also, the cherokee leaders petitioned general scott that they be allowed to petition the removal. James hairs father, conrad, was the first attachment to leave that fall, however, he soon became too ill to continue as the leader and had to relinquish the position. James hairs sister, betsy, the wife of ash hopper, traveled and richard taylors detachment. And he wrote in his journal on saturday, december 1, 1838, on thursday, two children, one a daughter of our dear sister, ash hopper, were called in to eternity. By this time, the extreme heat of summer had given away to an unseasonably cold winter. Reverend butrick further wrote, on december 26, they have sent detachment out to mississippi, stopped by floating eyes. Mr. Hildebrandts detachment stopped by the same means at the ohio river. December 27, we proceeded with the detachment about six miles, where we camped for the week. There was a slow increase of three or four inches, and the weather was excessively cold. The same letter that i mentioned earlier, written on december 20th, states, my husband has preached among the cherokees and attended on them as physician since they were first taken. Last summer, by their request, he was appointed to physician by general scott in a camp about eight miles from our station, and after arrangements were made for the cherokees to remove themselves, he was reported by mr. Ross to serve as physician and accompany them on the way to the west. The last letter i had from him was mailed at johnsburg, illinois, on the 19th of november come about 20 miles this side of the mississippi. They did not accomplish quite half of their journey at this time. They had considerable sickness. About 27 of their number lay buried between that place and the one where they commenced their journey. During this time, george hicks, one of the conductors of the attachment and a member of the church, sent the following letter, johnson county, illinois, 13th of january, 1830 nine, my dear friend and brother, we left the Cherokee Nation eased some of the land of our nativity come on the first day of last november and took up the line of our march to the far, and through the mercy of an all wise providence, who is ever ready to assist oppressed, and whose ears helped are open to their cries, have arrives thus far on our journey to the west. The following winter has been very cold, and we have suffered from exposure, from cold, and fatigue. Our people, a great many of them were very poor and very destitute of clothing, and as a means of rendering themselves comfortable, we have done all in our power to remedy the destitute situation and contribute very much to their comfort by supplying them, so far as we could, with clothing, blankets, and shoes. But still, we have suffered a great deal with sickness and of losses since the 31st of october, about 35, a great proportion of them the aged and children. Our numbers are probably over 1100, and to attend to and want and watch over, with a great deal and industry, because it is a great anxiety of mine, and so much responsibility adds to the fatigue of traveling, brought upon meeting a sickness from which i thought i should not recover, but through the mercy of providence, i have in good deal recovered my health. We are now about 20 miles west of the Mississippi River, which we cannot cross because of the ice. We have not been traveling on account of their being ahead of us two attachments of cherokees who must cross before we must cross. Mississippi has large quantities of floating ice, which at times it is impassable. But still, we keep crossing, and i am in hopes we will get over in one or two weeks. We will start in the morning again on our journey west, he wrote, the roads are all in very bad order, as the ground was frozen very deep, and there has been for the last 10 days a general thaw, not even any frost, together with a good deal of wet, which will probably make the roads almost impassable, but we must necessarily calculate the suffering, a great deal from hardship and exposure, before we get reach our homes in the far west. We look to the almighty for strength and protection, to enable us to reach that place of destination, as yet we are hardly halfway, and to look forward on the determination of our journey and our toils, we can hope for the best. Respectfully, george hicks. So principal chief john ross left last, after he had seen all of the other turkeys on their way west. He traveled by steamboat with a small group of cherokees, and ordered to take those who had been too ill to leave with the regular detachments, and while the detachments were waiting to cross the Mississippi River, he made two camps, and he wrote the following account. On my arrival with the water detachment, i received letters from various persons on the first houses in nashville, informing me that it was understood the land attachments had been stopped at the Mississippi River by ice, and for various reasons, it would be most advisable to transport the immigrants from that point by water. Therefore they sent me proposals for furnishing the steamboats for that purpose. In ohio, i also received letters from mr. Thomas and clark, junior, one of my principal agents, and other agents all urging me and most pressing terms to visit the detachment still detained at or near willis ferry in the Mississippi River. As my presence among them were necessary, calculated to deter them from pursuing their journey through missouri, on roads represented to be very bad, it would be impossible to procure supplies. These reports were suspected to have been put in circulation with the view of creating alarms among the people, that they might insist on taking water at that point. And note that these rumors were started by the first families of nashville, which i am sure you remember, is the home of Andrew Jackson, so these are his cronies, many of whom have made a great deal of money on the earlier removals of the other tribes, so they are seeking to profit more from the cherokee removal. So it was also suggested it might be deemed advisable to transfer some of the sick to the water detachment. I therefore deemed it my duty without hesitation. At first, id determine the propriety of running the boat up to willards ferry, and it was my wish to go by water, but the captain of the boat advised against it for reasons that neither him nor the pilot knew anything of the navigation of that part of the Mississippi River, so it was the passage of the boat and leaving, he has underlined, my sick family, with the other immigrants to await my return, which should be as speedily as possible. About 12 00 that night, i was landed at willards ferry, where i met with my brother louis and others and from whom i ascertained that a detachment had crossed the river and had been encamped a short distance off, and that george hicks, peter hillebrand, and richard taylors detachment had not yet crossed, clearing readiness for the purpose. I directed it to be distinctly made known that no change could be or would be made from completing the journey by land, and that it was evident these alarming tales were in great measure magnified for a fact. But however true the scarcity and high prices of supplies, immediately my could become about supplies should be procured, cost what they would, if they were to be had at all in the reach of the travel. Preparations would be made for taking us up the line of march the next morning, which was done accordingly. And i might add that while the cherokees were in charge of their own removal, there was never any complaints of lack of food on the way. And ross goes on to say that boats could not be prevailed upon to stop and take me on board, after thusly detained two or three days, i determined not to wait any longer for passage by water, and i procured and a horse and rode down into days by boat, accompanied by my brother. And the next morning, after my return, we slipped cable. A week from that time, underlining by ross, my children became motherless, and the remains of misses ross were left in a strange land. His wife died in little rock, arkansas, and she was buried in little rock. The 12th detachments arrived at Cherokee Nation during january. They crossed the mississippi before the ice stopped the other detachments. The others arrived in february and march. It has often been estimated that 6000 cherokees died during the process. There were about 1200 deaths, but there were many additional deaths after removal that reduce the population of the Cherokee Nation by at least an additional 1600 people, so there were at least close to 3000 deaths caused by the removal. In may of 1825 the cherokees have passed an act of posing the Death Penalty on anyone who should propose the sale for the exchange of their land. After their arrival at the present Cherokee Nation, a group of cherokees met secretly, and since various members of the treaty members to death based on that law. Major ridge along with his son, john ridge, were all executed on june 2, 1839, and one of the executors of major ridge was james hair. The trail of tears is an example of what can happen when prejudice combines with greed. It was a direct result of the Supreme Court decision of worcester v. Georgia being ignored. While we faced great adversities, we survive. We immediately began to reestablish our nation. We were able to adapt to them, and the chief, after lunch, well talk about rebuilding. Our ability to survive and adapt is the true story of the trail of tears and how we wish it to be remembered. Thank you. [applause] so are there any questions . It is a very tragic story. My name is stephen atkins. I am chief of an indian tribe. It illuminates the bloodthirsty, land grabbing invaders that set forth against town may 14, 1607, and less than three years later, lord delaware ordered the dissemination of the tribe, and by 1699, 9 out of 10 of the virginia woodland indians had perished, so the story that you told really resonates with me, because forced removal for the chickahominy and other virginia indians occurred in 1646, and the department of education across the states had skillfully, artfully left out that history, so we are surrounded by a culture that is largely ignorant of the tragedies that occurred among the indigenous people, beginning may 14, 1607. [applause] councilor baker thank you. We have had the same problem in our oklahoma textbooks, at least when i was growing up, there was firstly, nothing about the indian tribes. Where Oklahoma History firstly started with the land runs and our land from 1889. They have improved somewhat, but not to the degree that they should. What is the status of those cherokees that did not do the were not, because of various reasons, either they married a white person and did not do the trail of tears, my understanding is they are not on the cherokee register, and there is no way they could be on the register, because they did not do a trail of tears. Councilor baker right. It was mentioned earlier by lindsay, the one question about taking citizenship, of course, as lindsay mentioned, the 1835 treaty provided that if a person was able, that he could apply and then become a citizen of the state and remain in the nation or excuse me, remain in georgia or some of the other states. I think there were about 150 in georgia that elected to do this. But, lindsay also mentioned, they gave up their citizenship in the tribe to become citizens of the u. S. , so while they are of cherokee dissent, they are not eligible for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation because of that, because our role is based on residency and our citizens in 1902. I liken it to the fact that i have german ancestors. And so i have some german descent, but i certainly am not going back to germany and declare that i am a german citizen. [laughter] so it was like the same thing. Thank you. I have a question regarding the native americans having plantations, you mentioned, and also, were there United States laws regarding native americans owning or having enslaved africans or African Americans . And also, where there enslaved African Americans who moved along during the migration to the north and to the west . Councilor baker yes. There were a few cherokees who did own africanamerican slaves during this period. The ones with the larger plantations, for the most part, made sure that their slaves, which, unfortunately, they considered valuable property, they made sure that they made it to the Cherokee Nation west without any problem. There were a few cherokees that owned maybe one or two African Americans, and they accompanied them on the trail, and in butricks journal, he described at one point where he hired an africanamerican lady from the owner to do some washing for him and his wife. So we dont, at least, the trail of tears, we recognize that there were many African Americans on removal of tribes, but unfortunately, theres not a lot of documentation or stories with them. We would like to include more of those stories, if we could find them. Thank you. [applause] a university of richmond professor discusses how the expansion of slavery and westward migration displaced native americans throughout the antebellum period, moving them further and further from ancestral lands. If you want more information about the trail of tears, there is a National Association and partnership with the National Parks service, and local