Transcripts For CSPAN3 Topgun - U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School 20240713

Discussing his book top gun an american story, Aerial Combat and how his book inspired the 1986 movie to the gun. Good evening. Im Lauren Rosenberg with smithsonian associates. Welcome to tonights program. To our members, im so glad youre here. Its your support that makes events like this possible. And if youre joining us for the first time, an equally warm welcome and open invitation to explore the wide range of programs we offer at smithsonian associates. Now is the perfect time to turn off your cell phone or anything else that might make noise during the program. Thank you for doing that. This past march marked the 50th anniversary of the u. S. Navy Fighter Weapons program. We are thrilled this evening to welcome the programs founder, dan pederson. He entered the u. S. Navy in 1953 and went on to become the senior officer in the group of nine men who formed the navys legendary Top Gun Program at naval station miramar in march 1969. He served in combat during the vietnam war with the flying crews on uss hancock and three on uss spr prize. He retired as a captain, having accumulated 6,100 flight hours and 1,005 carrier landings while flying 39 types of aircraft. For those of you who know pedersons story from the 1986 movie top gun youll be happy to know Jerry Brockheimer is planning top gun maverick, a sequel in 2020. Pedersons book toll gun is available for purchase and signing after this presentation. So now please join me in welcoming dan pederson and larry burke. [ applause ] are you ready to go . Okay. Im going to take about ten minutes and just set the stage here for larry and i to go back and forth in final preparation for the questions coming from you. The assumption tonight is that no one how many of you have actually read the book . Good, because that really gives me free play. [ laughter ] especially with a couple squadron mates sitting back here to keep me honest. Any how, ill tell you about how the book came about. Its the 50th anniversary on the 3rd of march of this year. Top gun was conceived on that date 50 years ago. Thats a long time. Tells you something about how old i am, but jim hornfisher, my literary agent, has four best sellers of his own, and he came to me, along with the famous condor, who you see in the pictures up here, and they said, were getting close to 50 years. Its time to put the legacy in writing. Ive been fighting with the brits, you know, i could show you letters i get from london newspapers, and somebody over there says, yeah, we started top gun and the americans took it over. Of course, that would kind of ruffle your feathers, which it did. Weve been fighting back and forth. It was time to tell the story. And i happened to be the one who was drafted by the original eight guys, because i was a senior. I ended up being the boss man during the initial phase of this. And well get into how it was done and who did it and so forth here shortly. One of the benefits of writing this book was it allowed me to think back and i do a comparison with what i know today, and im older. I dont know it all, but i compare what i see and whats in writing about the navy as it exists today, where we are with airplanes and so forth, and i think did a fairly good job based on the reaction of the book and the reviews. One of the things were most proud of is the reviews weve gotten. I started out in 1953, working two jobs, going to college, like everybody in those days was doing. The draft was breathing down my neck i went into the reserves. I was assigned to a world war ii squadron. I was a mechanic. I worked here is the first good one of the night. I was working for a chief named brown, and he was my mentor. Mentor is a key word youll hear a lot from me. I worked for chief brown. I carried his tool box and got his coffee whenever i wanted, and he spent an enormous amount of time teaching me about the airplanes. Down here in california not down here. Im in d. C. Tonight. Any how, forgive me. I do make mistakes. But we had the first squadron in the navy. Mentor number two, young lieutenant. We had twin cockpit, front and back, and had flight controls in the backseat. And he said, you know, youre learning to be a jet engine mechanic. Chief brown was still over my shoulder every minute, watching me. And he said why dont you go fly them with me . So i went flying a few times in the backseat of the first jet airplane i had ever been in. And i thought, boy, i love this. So over the course of a few months, and he said, you know, youre really pretty good at it. He pretty near taught me how to fly that airplane. I didnt land it very well, but i could fly it pretty good. [ laughter ] so anyhow, he said if you would you consider going to Flight Training if i helped you take the exams and prepare you . And i said talked to my folks and my folks said thats an honorable profession, naval aviator. We would really support that. So, i went through Flight Training, pensacola, like we all did, 1956 and 57, 18 months. I did very well. And i think a lot of it has to do with that young lieutenants inspiration that he gave me. He set the stage. He later went on to be head of the fbi in the Western Region of the United States. Hell of a guy. God, what a great man. So then we come out of Flight Training. Grades are good. Got down there. Had some amazing good grades. And i end up with roommates in north island, famous north island san diego in the fiveyear squadron. First set of orders to the fleet. And we were squadron was amazing when i got there. I dont remember when ron got there, but i know we were very clo close. But we had a lot of world war ii guys were seniors in that squadron and mentor number three, gino validcha, howard aevy, found the japanese at the battle of midway, flying a patrol plane in those days. But we were surrounded by great talent from world war ii in that first Fighter Squadron. We had sexy airplanes, four different kinds. The old guys said weve done it. We want to stay home, drink a little whiskey and take care of mama and the kids. So they did. And they encouraged us to fly. And so i had all the flight time. This is a key point of where you are today in america. We had all the flight time that we could handle as young pilots. Thats not true today. Ill talk more about it when we get later on, but success from that day on, mentoring is the reas reason. I dont think intuitively i ever knew what ultimately i was capable of doing. I think it was being exposed to great americans. Gino valenchia what did he have, 23, 28 victories in world war ii, and he was ready to rest a little bit. But his enthusiasm carried over to five or six of us who checked in to that squadron. Had probably 1,500 hours because the abundance of flying that we had in those days. And the only way you really get good in Tactical Aviation is to fly a lot. Youve got to love it. It isnt airline flying. Its combat flying, and youve got to set your mind to it. Thats my background. I went on from there. Dr. Larry knows, weve had some time together and he knows a good bit of it. So he wants to ask some questions, and then well go to questions from the audience. All right. So as you can see, ive got a stack here, probably more than i need. Lets see how it goes. So i do actually want to back up a little bit. Is there anything in your background that led you to join the navy in the first place . Is it something you always wanted to do, or was it something you just kind of no. You know, when i got exposed, when that lieutenant strapped me in the back of that airplane the first time, after about four or five times. I mean, youve got to remember in those days, airlines there werent airliners. There wasnt anything fancy but the jets. It was brand new. Theres a couple of naval aviators sitting back here. Its hard to explain to the people who havent been there how absolutely beautiful flying can be. Combat may be, you know but flying. Flying over the United States. I came across california yesterday, and i had a window seat, and it was one of those days when i got to look out all the way across the country and i thought, my god, what a beautiful, beautiful country we live in. Thats a longwinded answer. But, yeah, exposure to it and im of a personality that i loved it. I would go back and do every single day of it again, if i was young enough. Unfortunately, time grabbed me. But i hope that gave you an answer. All right. So you already sort of mentioned that you go from there, you go to basic Flight Training in pensacola. Yep. And you absolutely loved that. Yeah. The marines made believers out of us. You go through basic training, Flight Training and then go on to advance. If you do well enough, you get jets, tactical jets. Youve got to realize, those of you, particularly for the ladies, there wasnt very other than korea, there wasnt a lot of male expertise in flying tactical jets. It was something new and really exciting. In advance training, i got to fly the same if not f2s that gino valencia and these guys, Bill Armstrong had flown in korea. And, you know, its a ticket ride every day. And they pay you to do it, so, you know. Thats why. I think i was born to do it, and i enjoyed it that much. Longwinded answer. Most are. All right. Actually, regarding the panther, you started out in a prop trainer in basic. And then you went to, what, tv2 . No, no. That old thing up there covered with oil, thats really that wasnt staged. That was a typical airplane in our day, snjs. And flew a t28 after that, went to advanced training and they bring you along pretty fast, you know. Six months, youre going to cover the spectrum of airplanes. And if youre good, if youre good and safe you have to live through it, remember that. Thats a number one prerequis e prerequisite. You have to live through it. Seven of us were out and kicking. In those days i didnt have a lot of jet experience. Maintenance isnt nearly what it is today. Could you just say its something a little more about your first experiences in the panther . This is the first time youre getting into oh, yeah, its in the book. A front line aircraft by the book . Its in the book. Those of you that dont have one should have one. Airplanes were repainted. It was just dynamite. Total eticket ride. Youre flying number one. Flying by yourself for the first time. Nothing more thrilling than that. This airplane had guns. Do i like guns . The guns are the primary weapon of choice today 50 years later and they always have been. Sadly when you read the book, youll find that the f4 never had a gun. Industry and washington decided not to put a gun in the airplane. I could have saved so many guys on the ground from being pows. I got called in three times when somebody got shot down and they were captured by the guy on the ground. If i had had a gun, i had no other weapon in the airplane. Thats a downside of it. Im sorry. Panthers are dynamite to fly. Yeah. All right. So again in the book, you describe a couple of instances in advanced training that really reinforce the fact that you are on your own in that cobbingpit. Oh, yeah. Would you care to tell our audience about those . Trip to dallas in the low level . Three, four of us in a division fly a wedge, if you will. And part of the sill bus was to go from immediateville to dallas, Naval Air Station regassed there and flied back down to immediateville. Several hundred miles, three hours, 3 1 2 by car. But in an airplane doing 450, 500mileanhour is a handful, particularly on a day like and there wasnt any they wanted us threw Flight Training. There wasnt any weather not like the weather today. Well cancel. We went. And we had about 600 foot overcast this particular day. Four of us trying to keep track of each other out in the wings and we swapped the lead back and forth. And were going up to dallas. And we do pretty good, except coming back. Come back and were probably a little bit misaligned. Going back to immediateville. A red lit tower. Later found out 1500 feet. Were cruising along 400, 500 feet, just below the clag. And, man, that thing went by so fast. The red light on it caught my eye. And i thought now thats a reality check. [ laughter ] its a damn dangerous business and a lot of things you cant plan for. Any how, thats the only one. And those of you, i dont know how many aviators there are, no one my age, but remember radio range, when we used to fly the radio range, before we had all the modern technology we have today . Youve got to be able to fly in the soup and navigate using just code. Code letters. And in 18 months of training, i got it down. I hated to admit it, because i had great grades, but i flunked going into victoria, instructor in the backseat of a tbird on a radio ranger approach in there. I got disoriented. Watering right down to the deck. It was just terrible. But no excuse. Youre a naval aviator, youre supposed to be able to do these things every single time. And i didnt. And i got it down. And i went back and landed, grabbed a cup of coffee with my instructor and thought boy, this is not good. Youre in trouble. First one i had 18 months. He said thats a good lesson in humility there. I took that with me quite a ways beyond that day. I paid dearly for it but i made it through. I got orders to Fighter Squadron three so you were assigned there, what made this squadron so unusual . It was all veterans. We probably had the best flight meters. The pictures of the guys and their jackets flying and we probably had the four best instructor pilots and leaders that i ever flew with. But it was you cant help it, when you fly once, twice a day, or as much as you feel like it, truly thats why we ended up with so very much flight time. Youre around these guys. We stood watches, alert watches. We were air defense command, working for the airports. Kind of a hokey mission but someone had to do it. We got good at it and we won the awards every year for the duty, but the benefit to the young ones like me, an abundance of flying. Associated with likekind jos, guys that were the same mindset as i was, and our mentors and teachers were all the cream of the crop from the Second World War. That is what we ought to be doing today. We need to mentor more young ones in todays navel aviation. Therein lies part of the story of top gun. Did you ever find out how this lone Navy Squadron came to be part of norad . No. I didnt care, as long as i got to fly. I really didnt. Im not much of a politician. So the other thing was you were flying the sky raid, the douglas f 4d. Also nicknamed the ford because of that designation. What was that like . That was the that was the hot rod of the day, wasnt it . Yeah, that was fun. That was fun, challenging, never in the history of my flying career, i never flew anything that had the climb characteristics. And thats where i learned to dogfight. We would go out there in the book, it describes a place that was illegitimate. It was hell to do it, but it was the only way we could keep dogfighting alive back in 57, 58 and 59. People were trying to revert back to missiles and radar and all the magic stuff. And we would go out and dogfight, friday afternoon go out on the island, area 51. Thats all true in there. We would have gotten courtmartialed if anybody had ever but we were pretty quiet guys, you know, when you know youre doing something you probably shouldnt be doing. But im not sure that our bosses in that great Fighter Squadron didnt look the other way a lot. Which actually sort of brings us to the other thing about the f4d did have guns but not a lot of rounds in its gun. Yeah. It was primarily intended to use guided missiles. Rockets. Incidentally, if you doubt my statement on the mentality of change to very sophisticated, expensive they taped off the gun ports, took all the guns out and they taped them off and they eventually just covered them all. So even at that day and that time, we never got to use the guns. When we went to weapons we never got to fire guns, did we . We won the allnavy weapons meet that year. One of our great friends, don lawler. Don was killed on the kittyhawk. Were you with him on that cruise when he was [ inaudible ] on a night carrier landing, he had engine failure in an a7, but he was as good as they got back in the days. Careerwise. He really did well. Sometimes you roll the dice and you dont win. I write about him in the book. So you already brought up this practice of hassling, as you describe it in the book. Makes me nervous. What about it makes you nervous . Its an art, okay . All those of you. I see a set of wings on a gentleman. Hes nodding. Its an art to dogfight, you know. I got my the original eight guys and i. We came up with some sayings, and one of them was, second place is dead last. And thats what happens when you dogfight in combat for real. If you dont win, the chances are that youre in a parachute or worse. It very, kind of the movie did an injustice to us in that regard, because it painted us as a bunch of cowboys any how. And my original guys were all phds, at least, intellectually. They all had two combat tours in vietnam. The 15 i had to choose from, they were the seven best i knew. The picture of mel holmes up there, the guy in the nice hat and all of that, he lived in a flightsuit. Mel holmes in those days, and ill include the israelis. Ive been flying with the Israeli Air Force guys a good bit. Mel holmes was the best in the world in that airplane. I put that in writing. His wife gave me a big kiss, but mel was that good. I enjoyed telling you about this, larry. What makes a guy that good . Well, maybe its a godgiven talent, but mel would strap in the f4, and when he was out, engaging somebody in a dogfight, would never look back in the cockpit. He had that kind of perception. The airplane became one with him. Now, out of the seven or eight guys that i picked top gun, the original, he redefined the envelope of the f4. He wasnt an aerodynamicist or anything academically, but he knew that airplane. He knew what it would do. I got in a lot of trouble with Mcdonald Douglas because we flew that airplane way beyond. Foxy probably remembers some of that. We flew that airplane way beyond what it was designed to do. We never killed anybody. We didnt wreck an airplane. So, you get away with it. Pretty soon, the kill ratio goes from 21 in vietnam to you probably want to ask me this, but got to tell it. Fits now. 21, theres a reason after five years of war, top gun got started. At the end from 3 march 1969 till the end of the vietnam war, top gun was going strong, putting guys out in the fleet, teaching the new tactics that we designed. Guess what the end kill ratio was. 241. Thats a whole lot better. You can hold your head up high when you come back and get out of the airplane, ill tell you. So, anyhouse, im sorry. Thats okay. Probably preempted you on that one. No, no. Well come back to it. But i did want to ask, you sort of brought this up, about, you know, flying the f4 beyond what it was designed to do. Yeah. And, you know, again, one of your themes is the bean counters restricting whats possible. So, in this period of time, you write about the fact that the navy actually restricts or prohibits air combat maneuvering, dogfighting, so as not to put strain on the aircraft. Yeah. And combined with this idea that its all going to be missiles, so you wont need to dogfight. Youll go up, youll shoot, especially once we get the seekers, sidewinder and the spare, and the navy thinks its all going to be longdistance shots. You wont need to maneuver. Do you think this practice of hassling grew out of that restriction, or do you think it would have happened anyway . The older guys with us, the mentors, those guys knew, because they had been there. One guy is advocating it, and theyre not going to they were all seniors. Full commander at the time. Youre not going to publicly tell washington what he really thinks, except that he can draw on his 28 kills that he did himself. Hes probably more of an authority than there was sitting back here, mandating the new way of doing it, if you will. And we listened to those guys, you know. Theyve been there. They were the idols that we had. So we went along with it. And thats who i blame it on, if you can blame or congratulate them, whatever you want to say. It worked. Stressing the airplane, acm or air combat maneuvering, dogfighting, the way that works and i described it in detail in the book for you. And my wife even understood, so you know, two guys go up alongside. Were at the fight club, area 1 51, or correction, out of San Clemente Island in a restricted area out there. Two guys, you go out there, fly eight, ten airplanes. Everything is really getting on with each other. You go out there. You pull up alongside somebody, look over, check them out. Okay. Break away. Few miles, come back at it. You do 500 knots a piece, closing rate. And this is called the merge. Thats what real combat is like when you see the enemy. Currently, and in vietnam, mcnamara mandated a rules of engagement on us that we had to see the enemy before we could shoot at them. That totally negates the concept of guided missiles, because at that closure rate, 1,000 miles an hour, the guy is pretty close to you, coming at you before you can identify a little tiny mig. So, anyhow, it doesnt work the way it is. Thats just one of the things ill just be candid right now. Thats whats wrong today in some of the current fighting positions. This country finds itself in. Weve got the wrong people writing the rules of engagement. They dont trust the combat experienced leadership to set the rules of engagement. Were going to end up i cant think of anywhere in the world that were not going to end up dogfighting when we try and go there or engage, whatever the enemy happens to be, were going to end up dogfighting them. Thats me, personally. How is that . All right. Im going to skip through the next one sort of quickly here so we can get to the good stuff. Sure. And not run out of time. So from vf3 you go to vf213, flying on board the hancock and youre now filing the f3h demon. Mcdonald built the forerunner to the four. It was a beautiful flying airplane, except it had no power. And when we first put out on the fleet, we killed five guys in one day. Out off japan. They happened to come down through a radar wasnt quite as good as it is today, and they come down through a thunderstorm and lost five guys one slick afternoon. And what happened this is really interesting. The water would come in the intake, and it would surround the engine, and when you cool metal, it tends to shrink right, it would shrink around the turbines and the engine would seize. So all thesefies guys came down, fat, dumb and happy, through a thunderstorm, coming down to the boat to land and all the engines quit. And it was so, you know, a major, major fix to get it repaired. What they did is they just went in and they cut a very small amount off all the turbine blades in the engine so when the engine went through water, it would close down but it wouldnt stop. But the downside of that is you lost a great deal of power. What it did to us mentally, it would scare you flying that thing. Beautiful airplane, but so bad powerwise. When i got into a phantom, i told larry tonight, the phantom was so much better in the sense that it had power beyond anything i had ever flown. Ive flown an airplane at 2. 47 mach. Thats 2. 47 times the speed of sound. And she would heat up from frictional heating of the air flow over the airplane, and she would say no faster. I dont like this and, boy, i tell you, i would come out of burner and slow down. But it had phenomenal power. Thats why top gun worked. Ill tell you more about that. So you go from the demon to your next tour of sea was with f4 phantom off the uss enterprise. Yeah. And the enterprise, you report on board and the enterprise goes out to vietnam to yankee station. Yeah. What was your experience of vietnam . In 1967 i joined the squadron miramar very briefly. I had been at 121 teaching tactics and so forth, and luck of the draw i ended up in a great squadron with the leader. The man that i respected most in combat. Probably kept me alive a couple of times. Skank renson. His name was shrek but nobody called him that. They called him skank. What made him such a great leader was he had phenomenal natural ability, charismatic man, and whenever the Hard Missions oh, no. I shut that thing off. I told her not to call me. [ laughter ] forgive me, please. Anyhow, skank always took the tough missions. Therein lies leadership again. He had programs quietly bringing the young guys up. He never put anyone in a combat situation that would get them hurt until they were ready. I think foxy knew him as well as i did. But i had some experiences, i dont know if weve got time to tell you about them but i loved that man. I was with him only story ill tell. You dont know it. I wasnt with him on this mission, but hes in there, wandering around North Vietnam and he gets shot. Rifle got him. Rifle bullet through both legs. They went through the fleshy part of his legs. And so, being the cool hombre he is, he goes out and brings the leg restraints. We had leg restraints for the ejection seat. They keep your legs from flailing when you eject yourself out. So he brings them up and he makes turn kit tourniquets. Medics lifted him out of the airplane. They put him in surgery, sewed him up. Two weeks later to the day, he was back flying in vietnam with us. That is my measurement of real leadership. I got Better Stories than that about him. Go ahead, im sorry. No, thats fine, just a bit of background then and we sort of talked about this. I want to put it all together for our audience. Part of this idea that the navy had at the time, that it was going to be straightline flying and firing longrange guided missiles, soviet bombers to protect the United States or protect the carrier group. And you find yourself in a very different war in vietnam. Yeah. Where you are prevented from shooting anything until you can visually identify your enemy. Key point right there. You design an airplane as an intercepter to shoot missiles, got beautiful two different kinds of radar in the airplane. You paid for it incidentally. And when you get out there, the rules of engagement are so stringent by mcnamara and lbj, you cant fire your weapons, because the rules of engagement are mandated. Theyll courtmartial you, if you break them. And none of us we were all obedient children. So, we just kind of went along with it, right . Yeah. But, god. Thats why it didnt work. So, top gun this will take a second but its the start of top gun. 1967, i came back on the enterprise, having experienced the best cruise of my life with skank, and im teaching at 121, teaching the tactics phase, 15 guys in the whites. Those are pretty good drivers, really good sticks. And 121, for the audience, youre training everyone that is about to go out into the pacific. Thats right. For the f4s. They had 1600 enlisted guys, over 100 airplanes, and they were going night and day following some would maybe get wasted out in vietnam, and we would send a replacement out, replacement airplane. So, frank alt, coo, the great frank alt writes a 400page report, unsolicited. Hes so fed up with it. He sends the report back to washington. We had some great people in washington during the war, but they were controlled by mcnamara. Thats about as close as ill get to politics, but they were controlled by people, naval officers couldnt do what they wanted to do. But they said one of that 400 that number of recommendations in that 400 pages was two things. Weve got to get a getwell program done very rapidly, and we need to rethink the spare and sidewinder missiles that dont work. They shot over 600 of them, and they had less than 10 success rate, and those are expensive. We knew it would come right back out to us. And they did. Came to 121. They said, tactics phase. They offered the job to me. And the downside of it was they said 60 to 90 days, can you have the first class ready, cant you . This is graduate school. This is above, beyond what theyve been teaching the whole time. How do you put a graduate school, a Teachers College for teachers, how do you put it and youve got to be credible. If we werent credible, foxy never would have believed us. So when you stand up and youre at the podium, you better pack the gear, and the information better be tactically better than the guys youre lecturing to know. And youve got 90 days to do it. So i handpicked the guys you saw up here. They were brilliant. The only thing everybody says how much did you learn from the israelis . The only thing the israelis taught me was how to pick your people based on their untuitive or their academic background technically, and i did that with every one of these guys. Jimmy, who many people know him in washington, is a brilliant, brilliant man. He knew more about the f4 radar and the missiles. And he took that job on, with a guy like wally from raytheon. And three months later, they were teaching a way of firing. And we learned instead of fighting horizontal, we used all the power the f4 had, and it worked. And every guy, including we had no building to start with. We had no classroom. We had nothing. He said, just dont kill anybody and dont wreck my airplanes. Because i had to borrow airplanes in order to put a flight syllabus together. First we needed a place to meet and write and study, and talk. So a guy named steve smith, just dynamite personality guy, says ill do everything you tell me to do. He would make a list every morning and by dark he would have it pretty well. I said steve, weve got to find room to have the classroom, and have an office kind of place. So, hes wandering around on a friday afternoon. Its in the book. Youll just break up reading about it. Coming down the street is this big crane, and its got this 40 foot by 20 foot building. Its an old, probably salvage, was going to be destroyed. And he talked the Civil Service crane operator into bringing it down there on friday afternoon. With a case of scotch. It cost me a case of scotch to get the building. Over the weekend, steve had it delivered, home depot delivered the new flooring. He put a new floor in it. We painted the outside, an atrocious red trim. And i said, steve, why the color . He said nobody will ever think we stole it. If its painted red. And it was. So, anyhow, thats how we started. And thats not in the book. You get extra value for being here tonight. You think about the times, 50 years ago, there was no computers, no laptops, no cell phones. We had a couple typewriters. Fighter pilots dont type very well, i can tell you. But we had typewriters, we burned up two xerox machines making copies of the curriculum. We rewrote the entire air combat maneuvering syllabus. We incorporated Mcdonald Douglas tack manual, rewrote each individual flight profile and how it was to be conducted. I wrote the mandated safety requirements, you know, because i knew if we killed anybody or we wrecked the airplane i had to borrow the damn airplanes. And if it didnt work, you know, school is over, clyde. Go home. And so but it worked. Every guy pitched in. I make this statement i get the credit. They asked me to write a book. I think its a good book. I get to go on fox news and do all the pr work, making the book go. The book is a legacy to all of the top gun guys, 560 of them on may 1st this year that attended the 50th reunion in san diego. We had 42 skippers there. Were they good . Weve got a fourstar admiral in the mix, got five or six threestar admirals. I dont even count the two stars. But the guys those who got out those who got out of the navy have made a real success of their civilian lives. And im really proud of all of them, as you can tell. But had we not had any single guy, had he been not part of the equation in the beginning, it wouldnt have got done. Jimmy lane, who you see pictures of the ejection. Jim lane ejected twice over there. He a mig. Shot a mig down. And the other one is smash nash, who is in the picture. Those of you who have been around Naval Aviation know john nash, his reputation. He didnt get that call sign because he was gentle with airplanes. His call sign was smash. He got a silver star for saving jim lanes life in North Vietnam. The brotherhood, the brotherhood is real. It exists today. It was in san diego on the first of may. You see them after 50 years. And the only reason the school has gone on and grown to what it is today, internationally now they have the reputation, bar none in Tactical Aviation. Its in nevada. If you get up to reno, go and see it. It belongs to you. You paid for it. Theyve got their problems right now with politics and the same business. Its almost gone full circle from when we started. Got an airplane you maybe dont want, dont know how to use. But we wont go into much of that. It worked. The school worked because of the individual. Here is my last comment. It is not the airplane or the Weapon System that wins in combat. Its the individual. Its the man or the woman driving the airplane who is professionally excellent at what theyre doing. That isnt the way we buy airplanes anymore, either. But any how, thats my billy graham for the night. So you come back, youre at 121. Youre shown the alt report. Co says i want you to take this . Yeah. But we have no facilities, we have no no money, we have vague instruction that the navy should establish a school to teach fighter tactics, and whats your rank at this point . Im Lieutenant Commander 31 years old. My youngest guy was the famous condor, and he was 22. Had two combat cruises under his belt. Jimmy lang had two, mella had two. We all did as far as combat exposure, and common trade among these guys is deadly serious about what they were doing as professional naval aviators. There was nothing to what you saw in the movie. They did the flying for the first movie, incidentally, the topgun guys in 1985. They did the flying for the movie. But my guys were ph. D. S at least, and the pace was schedule was so tough. Now they dont believe us. We worked seven days a week. We finished at night usually at the oak club and had a beer together and critiqued. Many of the guys slept in their cars. We didnt have any bunk room or anything else. Go wake them up. We started the next morning at 4 30 every morning. But when youre dealing in human life, the only reason the school was started, the only purpose we had in everything we were doing was guys are still fighting every day in vietnam, and theyre losing, and theyre losing because they were trained the wrong way. And they just dont. And so the sooner we can get it all packaged and back out there, thats what our students were doing. They were going out and teaching their squadrons the new tactics. If i may, its an important point to make. You dont just, you know, i dont have infinite wisdom. As i said, it was the collective work of eight guys, nine guys, but one thing we pulled off, thanks to vx 4, the Test Squadron of point mugu, up at dreamland area 51, mel and i went up there, didnt know where we were really going. They had meet us at mels. So we met at mels air force base, and the next thing i know im in a transport and im going somewhere in an air force transport, and they park the airplane and we get out and we look around, never seen this place before. Probably. And go in the hangar, heres these beautiful Little Silver megs. A half hour later, test pilot, vx 4, chief of projects he says come on, dan, lets go flying. He climbs in one, puts me in the meg, sits up on the front canopy looking over. He says, dan, dont worry about the instruments, he said t as long as theyre in the green everywhere. Try that one on. So anyhow, 30 minutes after we landed, i was strapped in a mig and went rolling down the runway. The hardest thing about flying a mig is taxing and i wont get into t but its very difficult. The only mistake the engineer, but we got to validate the tactics that we had all come up with against the real thing. So at graduation day, the first class i said i got a surprise for you. I put them all in the airplanes and said follow me. We went up to area 51. The students took on migs, unbriefed, unknown, the real thing. You know. You hear them on the air, i wont tell you what they said, but geez, where did these guys come from. And they get to prove their knowledge, if you will. Nice way of putting it. So anyhow, we validated the tactics. The last bit on that story is jerry shot down the first megs after top guns graduation, the first victory we had after the school got going, and he now owns a bed and Breakfast Hotel over in scotland, and he came to the reunion and told the story of the whole thing, so pretty happy about it. All right. So topgun is established in 69. Yeah. Youre graduating your first class is out there. But the real test kind of comes in 1972, right . Yeah, well. The first time you really get to see what happened and 1972 and vietnam, North Vietnamese Army Launches a massive attack on the south, president nixon authorizes operation linebacker, so now the navy and the air force are going to go in, bomb places in North Vietnam, previously off limits, also changes the rules of engagement. Yeah. No longer have to have visual, and how did that go . Well, you know, it went as rapidly as the migs dared come out, up to 24 to 1. And thats simply stated. The tactics worked. The guys got their momentum back and their pride back. Thats a big thing, boy. You go out and risk your butt every day. If you dont have pride in what youre doing and confidence, youre not going to do well, but we did well. The guys, the students went out, taught their own squadrons and the squadrons did really well. And of course we were back there, most of us had moved on. We had moved on, so. Get some questions. Yeah, skip ahead, i just got one or two. I do want to get to you before we get to the questions. So clearly youve stated interested in whats going on at topgun since you helped set it up. Obviously interested in the success of this thing that you created. How has it changed since you founded it in 61. You got to go to fallon and see them, a beautiful set up up there. A lot of airplanes. The young guys, i was up there in may for a day, and when you watch them fly, they are so good. And intellectually, they got a picture board up there. Im the number one picture, it goes across row after row after row of instructors. They have taken pictures over the years. Probably the best collection of photography youll ever want to see. And they are just absolutely the best of the best still. We like to think we were good and we go up there and watch these guys. The only problem is theyre walking the fence politically now to try and keep everybody happy and try and keep up with the new sophisticated airplanes. Its a pretty big challenge. All right. So you mentioned that you and your other original bros mostly loved the 1986 topgun movie. . Its mixed. I had somebody the other night say hey, maverick. I looked at him, dont call me maverick, and so the movie sold a lot of ticket. It really helped the volunteer navy. The navy had 300 backlog in pilot training. It was that sensational. The topgun guys in 1985 did the flying for the movie. Along with and so forth. All that was good. I loved the sound, i loved the music personally. The rest of it was hollywood glitz. And im very worried about the new picture. I havent had a thing to do with the new picture. The last thing i have for you before we turn it over to the crowd here. In your final chapter you write that basically theres some things, some fundamentals about fighting in the air that really never change, and you sort of imply that these were lost after the Second World War. Kind of had to rediscover them for topgun. Yeah, you know, my guys, all of them had individual great eos, but you couldnt let them flag each other. I kept them apart because if they fought each other, and they would have lost one, there wouldnt have been a school period. And thats true today. And great satisfaction in the boroughs. I mean, these guns are in the pictures up there, the four of us, were like of the same parents. Theyre so proud to be together, and the navy is a great profession. If you get the right mentoring, you can just fly jets, boy thats really a good way to go. The navy takes good care. I had a great career, and i skippered the carrier ranger. I had a big super tanker before that. Same rules apply, dont run, dont hit anybody with it, and you may be in the ballpark for one of the characters. I went through Nuclear Power training, and that was very difficult. Really tough math, but i got to carry i had the privilege for 2 1 2 years of skipper and the uss ranger, the big Aircraft Carrier, and that was the original ranger number one ship was John Paul Jones flagship 200 years ago. There have been number two, three, four five. I had number seven and during eight years of sequestering and cutting back financially, they sold it for a dollar of scrap. That happened, you didnt know about it. Unknow that. And the other day i was up in new york doing tv appearance and i met a couple interesting people, and talked one of them into trying to get some power going down here to name one of the new carriers ranger and carry on the tradition. Listening. Well go to questions and whatever. I hope im kind of long winded. Well, i was prepared i lived it, you know. I was prepared if you werent. I will say there are lots of Great Stories in this book that we did not have time to get to tonight. I encourage you to get your hands on a copy. All right. We have a question down front here. Yes, sir. Thank you for jyour service and also for the book. A very interesting presentation. Im wondering. Oh, okay. I was wondering how aware of you what john boyd of the air force was doing at the time, and how much cross pollination was there between the two services in terms of bringing back dog fighting . Thank you. I know john boyd personally. John boyds a brilliant, hes been very influential in a lot of good airplanes but we didnt have time we had a couple of meetings with him, and mel holmes who was my aerodynamics guru, if you will, he didnt get along with him, and mels argument always comes down, when you take it all, john boyd tried to make a mathematical equation of what makes a great airplane and fighter pilot. Okay. And we found mels argument, and they went at it at a couple of meetings in big audience. Mel says, you cant quantify what the human being driving the airplane will be like, and thats really true. Remember i told you the pilot is always the key factor in everyone that dog fights in the future, and thats where the disagreement was. Were friends. Hell buy me a drink. Excellent presentation i have one question. I want to, if you may clear up a rumor, and i want to go back to the movie top gun for just a second. Sure. In parts of the movie, you hear the guys, you know, gutsiest thing i ever saw, something along those lines, but what im asking is i have heard rumors that tom cruises character is essentially mandy cunningham, can you clean that up . I dont know if its true, but i have heard that somewhere. Well, i dont really i dont have any authority or knowledge to comment on that. You know, what tom cruise does with his new movies and money is his business, as long as he doesnt hurt my navy. Yes, maam. Sir, thank you very much for your service, and for the Great Stories tonight. I also appreciate your comments about mentorship. Thank you very much. But im interested in how did you choose that first class . Did you get to choose the students or were they nominated by commanders . You know, thats really a great question. First of all, if you want to multiply out the benefit of it, you got to bring the best ones in. They have to go back to the parent squadron and teach. They got to go back and teach like graduate level, very quickly. So and we had to argue. Remember theres a war going on. And let me tell you some opinion guys are the squadron commanders who are out on all the carriers who this young upstart group that we didnt have we didnt have great publicity ortizi or advertising of what we were doing in the beginning. We started calling around, steve smith, the guy that absconded with the building, i get him on the phone. I said, you find me students. He said okay. Jesus, some of the butt chewings he got for even suggesting. Guy says what do you think you know that we dont know. Were out here fighting a war, and they hang up. Then we had to go. We came to washington and we had one magic phone call from somebody in washington to a Wing Commander on the east coast and one on the west coast and all of a sudden it changed. It wasnt a voluntary change. It was probably survival of themselves, because youre going to do it. Now, just get on with it. And then when the kills started coming in, topguns reputation grew, and then theyre standing in line trying to get in to get the education. Anybody that was going back to fighting combat wanted to pick up what they hadnt been exposed to prior to going back. Theres one back in the middle. One in the back first. Cant see you. Thank you, captain. Im joe gavin from the grummond family, i hope we have a few grummond people here today. My question is, back around the late 70s there was a refereed and monitored flyoff between the f 14 and the f 15, i wondered if you could tell us anything you know about the results you took away from that experience. You know, believe it or not, i really try and stay out of the political. Im a big fan of grummond iron, i miss your company very badly right now. It was a competitive factor that balanced equations. Grummond notoriously built great airplanes in the Second World War and korea and their reputation with naval aviators was as good. Then along came several others, and eventually, you and i both know what happened to the 14, and 6 on my dad and the competitive, and i dont think tonight i like to go into that, but i wish grummond was back and competing. It wouldnt take 26 years to bring a new airplane to fruition. Thats all ill say. Theres a question over here. Theres one right here the little gentleman, here she is with the mic. Thank you. Did the air force pilots participate in top gun or did they have their own program . Ill tell you, we got in the vietnam war and went to what i told you it was, and the air force, we their Senior Leadership during that latter phase of the war, they wouldnt change to the tactics. I actually got i brought robin olds down, the great general himself, i idolized the man, great pilot. We brought him to fight melon and jc the guys on one weekend, and hes living proof of what should have happened. They should have used somebody like him and joined right in. Now, they later went on a couple of really great air force sticks out in ellis, and started red flag, and you know about that, im sure. And after they got started, the general who controlled him, he retired or something but the air force came along and joined in with top gun today. I wont say theyre joined at the hip, but they share information. Theyre both american fighter schools. So they share information lord willing. Theyre going to end up sharing airplanes. So i dont know. The f 4. Yeah. But air force, i never said a bad word about them. Boy, they were and you know, i dont know how many of you know people that flew the f 105 in southeast asia. But they built 800 and some of them, and in the book, its one of the reasons i had Barrett Tillman with me. Barrett and i did a lot of research. They lost 340 some airplanes, the f 105s in vietnam. Thats a tragedy. Those guys were as good as anybody in the world. Yes, sir, right here. Microphone, sir, please. I salute you for all your service, and i thank you for that. You referred previously about being told that they took the bullets out of the aircraft. Did they take the bullets out of the aircraft that were giving Ground Support to the infantry and all too . Do you understand that . I think hes asking about the comment you made earlier where the navy took the bullets and the guns out of the sky ray and hes asking if they took them out of any of the aircraft that were supporting doing the Ground Support over in vietnam. Oh, no. You know, the navys never had a gadling gun, 6,000 rounds a minute, you squeeze it and i guarantee it, even today, it is the weapon of choice in combat. I dont care whether i have any missile, ill take a couple of biters if you want to put them on me but you give me a gadling gun, lead computing gun sight and some good radar from the carrier or from support ships, and ill go anywhere. Particularly against sophisticated, the really over sophisticated airplane, and the reason im against those, without getting into the politics, is number one, they take too long, theyre too expensive and all the bells and whistles that are built in to them, overload the pilot. In combat, in combat, there he is, active duty right there, he just nodded. In combat, you dont look inside otherwise to check your fuel gauge once in a while. If you look inside they may get you, so, no, i dont thats the way it works in combat. You got to look outside and what you dont see is what kills you. I took the handoff. Ive got a friend in Flight Training, marine corps Flight Training, and theyre telling him now that hes the last generation of manned planes. What are your thoughts on that . You know, again, you get into industry sells airplanes, drones. The drones have a reasonable mission, Certain Applications of them. Im not sure that on a 30plane strike i want somebody at nelis or somewhere controlling the armed drone in the middle of us shooting missiles. That just strikes me wrong, you know, you can get hosed that way. That doesnt work, so my point is my point is the pilot, the human will always be the key factor in a win in Aerial Combat. Now, some of you may not believe that, but take a look at the volume of airplanes in china or russia or north korea. They got a lot of them. And we ought to have we do not want to find ourself numerically inferior to any of those countries. Those are deterrents. I dont want anymore combat. I dont want them for you young ones. I dont want to see it again in my lifetime. I hope we never have it. But you got to have deterrents. You got to have the ability. The other thing, one last thing, when a skippered ranger, i had 5,400 guys on ranger with me. Anybody want to venture the average age . 19. Somebody hit it right on the head. Average age of the volunteer that mans the Aircraft Carriers your beautiful nukes that are out there, ten, eleven of them now, will be soon. Thats the greatest deterrent in the world. Dont let anybody tell you that theyre really vulnerable. I wont, in a group like this, but anybody who wants to debate that with me, i can tell you how to disappear with an Aircraft Carrier, and it works every time. Given the weather, electronic signature, run on four screws, run on two screws, drop in behind super tankers. Theres so many ways. People are putting out a lot of bra vo sierra to sell airplanes. And im sure theyll find a good use for drones. Drones are phenomenal for airtoground work. But i personally dont want them on the Aircraft Carrier. Good answer, good question. A follow up question to what you were just talking about, the latest air craft coming on board now is this joint strike force thats i think its the f 22 or f 35, Something Like that. Would you care to comment about how those how that aircraft compared with the current Super Hornets that we now have on our Aircraft Carriers . Well, ill only tell you i saw the day i was up at fallon they had 100 missions that day were flown. There were airplanes from all over the world there, different, a little bitov of mix of everything. Let me tell you what they did. Skipper of top gun right now is just a phenomenal young guy. Youth is where it is. The name is pops. They call him pops. That morning, all the pilots met, they drew times and piece of paper, and they all went around to do this. And what that drawing was was they drew a range time to be out, somebody else drew the same range sign, and they were going out and fight somebody. They had no idea who it was. Whether it was an f 22, f 35, an f 5. I listened to a lot of the debriefs, and the hornet guys, i dont particularly its a greedy little airplane, the super hornet is. Its got better legs. The reason i didnt like it is it caused me on the carrier to shorten the cycle time down. It wouldnt stay airborne. Didnt have enough gas. But those guys and the Super Hornets went out and waxed the f 22. And they waxed a lot of sophisticated airplanes that day. The taiwanese brought in some f16s, and the hornet guys held their own, and ill put naval aviators in a simple, reliable airplane. When you read the last chapter, if i were king quote in the book, if i were king, and youll remember the night when you read it, i would simple, reliable, remember, carrier maintenance guys are only 19 years old. And thats the abundance of them. They rely on the chiefs in the first class or second class to maintain those airplanes. If you dont maintain them right, you kill somebody. Thats unacceptable. Right now, somewhere in this town, theyre talking about bonusing pilots to keep them so they dont get out and go with the airplanes. Let me tell you what the pilots, the reason theyre getting out is that for eight years of sequester and during the transition time now, they havent had any real flying. The guys at topgun, i used to go up there and talk to pops and the boys. Theyre getting ten hours a month. Thats enough to barely know what youre doing. There wasnt any money for flying. Now its a lot better. When you look at the original eight, and i told larry this earlier, we got 40 hours, 40 hours was enough working as hard as we were. I couldnt handle much more physically. Familywise, i couldnt handle it anymore. I was never home. Condor, the great condor, his best month at topgun were 60, 65 hours a month, and most of it was an hour at a time. Flying is the reason naval aviators stay in the service. Simple. And so simple is better, ultra reliable, if youre going to bonus anybody, bonus the chiefs, the first class enlisted guy. I spent a good bit of time as captain of an Aircraft Carrier talking to our own blitz people about the poor i mean this in a loving way, about the poor enlisted guys wives at home with their kids that had no money. Thats not america i know. You know. We all dress pretty good and drive nice cars. We ought to be able to take care of the guys that are maintaining these big expensive airplanes. Thats my second billy graham for the night. I think we have time for one more question. We have one down front here. Yes, sir. Thank you for your service. Jeff stender, grad, vt 25, texas, 85 to 87. Attack guy, sunday puncher, guy off the kennedy. I saw all theres great pictures, i wonder if we could run through and talk about the pictures and great people. Would that be all right, you got five minutes . Incidentally, i had lunch. I spoke at charleston at the Yorktown Museum two weeks ago one night to a group much the size of this, and i had brunch the next day with jimmy flatley, your skipper on saratoga. And he had just good naval aviator, he had just had a right hip replacement two days before, and he shows up to host a brunch for me. I couldnt believe it, he came in in a wheelchair. Okay. Thats i cant walk anywhere with this. Thats s and j, thats what i went through basic training with. There were hundreds of them. And great airplane. I soloed that first time on a grass field. They cut your tie off on solo day. I still have that tie. You got one too . Yes, sir. Did you wear ties . Yes, i did. I still own half of those. And this was a squadron that ron and i were in, and hell of a great airplane. Douglas built that sky ray, and i love mainly because i live through probably 3,000 hours in it, but that airplane there was fun. Now, some great friends there, you want some reality check. I looked at that picture today at the hotel, and there are eight guys left. Thats the reality. And a lot of it was not necessarily pilot performance but in those days, what they did with the airplane was pretty risky. And that was a terrible airplane on the boat, laterally unstable on the boat and at lexingon when we were together, they took it out, tried tonight qualify that airplane on the lexington, and they lost a bunch of guys. Hey, thats, you know, the newspapers pick up on this story almost daily, the russians and the americans are at each others throats. Let me tell you, this is an average day off the sea of japan. They come out of stock every day. I have had them my backseater, it hold up something, penthouse or playboy, and the guy in the back tur id back there, he would show him the current playboy and it was more current than the one we had on the carrier, so i mean, let me, you know, and ive had guys run across my bow on the carrier, and just come up on guard, and say you dont really want to do that again, and then i had an Electronic Warfare plane go over him, and turn up the gain on all his sensors, and he probably he probably blew every fuse on that troller. Dont do that again, im telling you. So and thats the great enterprise, and why i love this shot is i dont know that i was on the cruise or not, but shes got her beautiful mandle, remember the radar or ray up on the island and then someone in their infinite wisdom said buy the lady a new hat, so they took that beautiful array off there, and they made her look like everybody else. But theres only one enterprise, and right now they just re or took the core out of it, the Nuclear Power plants been removed. Shes in salvage, and they dont know what to do with it, you know. Boy, thats a tough decision. That was a great ship. And theres the phantom in its sister role of dropping 500 pounders. And you want to know something thats in the book, when you get to the part about yankee station and flying, read carefully the part about kasan, i wrote about it in detail. I went to kasan one day, didnt expect to go down there, and got called down 500 knots, 400 feet, dropping those kind of bombs, only they had they were snake eyes and they had clam shells stop and go straight down. And i flew closer for about four days, and thats when i learned to love grunt marines. Ive never seen American Kids that brave. Thats a whole different story. Go ahead, please. Thats some mag drivers, actually North Vietnamese. They have since been over here, some of the guys, hosted them here in san diego, and some of the mag guys trying to settle their mental situation. I never cared that much, so i didnt go. And theres the originals, john nash on the right, jimmy roulefson, the second one on the lower right, i was the third one. Hank who took all the risk. God, man, id go into him and complain about something and hed say get out of here and go do it, and thats all i ever most of your here in washington and business, we never had a consultant, and i dont mean to hurt anybodys feelings. We had no consultants, and i had no one outside a uniform involved in top gun for the first two years. That was jimmy, a great jim lane, heres chairman amertus of john, i want to say bernie, big Real Estate Company in san diego, wonderful guy. You know, the image that was painted in the movie, this guy goes to Catholic Church every morning. And i think he did that even before he was flying with us. Hes one of the great human beings ive had the pleasure of serving with, and hes fearless. Go ahead. And thats jimmy. They had just taken a large dose of flak and both engines were quitting and the front seater got out about a second later, so we needed double exposure, but we didnt get it. Theres the great mel holmes, these guys talented while he was in the service. I mean it, he was the best in the worldme. I dont know who the ten best were and i put him up on top. He went out and started micronesia airlines, his own airline. Risk takers but just incredibly talented people. And theres this is the famous condor. Hes like my son. Only i have one problem, i think my wifes in love with him. Hes movie star good looking. Hes so successful. Hes a developer big time, and a prince of a human being. And thats the other one. Incidentally, condor was a backseater in the f4s in the beginning of topgun, and i found out just how much in control i really was, i found out we were flying ta 4s, two seat a4s. I found out i would look for him and he would be gone. He would be in the air, and hes talking the rest of the guys into putting him in the front seat of the a4, and they taught him to fly. So he comes to me one day later on when we were up and running well, and he said i want to become a naval aviator. I want to go to Flight Training. He said, i already know how to fly. Hes so confident, and i said, okay. Send an application in, ill endorse it, and i did. He went through and just aced Flight Training. Came right back to topgun as an instructor right out of the training command. You know, i think in his total career, condor has been at topgun four times. But thats called an insurance policy, having talent around you. Its always the guys around you. And thats the big pollock, jerry sawahtski, known for bending airplanes. They just, he and mike gunther were a match set, and they were both good. They started our adversary program. It had to be able to fly like the russians, so sawatsky put the program together inside of topgun, and he flew both sides, the american side one day, hed fly the adversary side later on, and out of its evolved, right now there are about four squadrons that are dedicated adversary, and the air force, somebody asked me air force question, the air force just funded 25 or 30 f5s to a dedicated adversary squadron and i noticed in the press the last couple of weeks, they took the f35s, the new ones from tindale, which got devastated by the hurricane down there, and theyre moving those up to nelis and theyre going to form an adversary squadron out of the new airplanes. Trying to figure that one out. So anyhow, two great ones. Theres the building. That was home. Yeah. And those are a4s. We started to study and we painted each airplane a little different camouflage. We went around the world and took a look at various color schemes. Some of those airplanes actually were so good you couldnt see them from a mile away, you know. And then you think about the merge coming head on at a thousand miles an hour. So anyhow, hey, there he is. And my loaner, borrowed a guys a4, and that guy in the backseats pretty famous. Thats jc smith, when you read the book. He relieved me as in charge of topgun, and he got the first mag of the war, first one shot down before the school even started. Hes a wild man. Hes a san angelo, texas. This will break you up. I cant believe it myself. He owns two cadillac agencies in texas. He owns a funeral parlor and a country club. And i think hes a deacon in his church. Anyhow, mag 21, great airplane. Theyre still flying. Chinese are still building these. They got 2,000 of them. And theres the boat going off the catapult. Thats the most dangerous occupation in the world working that flight deck, and condor wrote a chapter in there for me that as a lieutenant he had asked to brief the last mission on the carrier coral c, i think it was. And he flew the fighter protection over saigon during the exodus when we were dragging all the people out. And these pictures were the boat people coming out trying to get on the carrier. And its one of the few times i have ever seen him totally sad. You know. He said i cant believe it. Were leaving them. I cant believe were leaving these people the way we are. That gives you an inside look at him. And thats a typical classroom, you can tell by the long hair what period it was. Thats one of the beauties. Thats a two place one. Thats the one i was telling you about. You got to look up and find out during the debrief that condor was in the front seat and one of the pilots was in the back. You get in a private pilots lesson. Little risky. And thats the airplane i talk about in the last chapters of example of what i would buy right now. I would take one of boeings defunct factories which they have now out in the middle of america, theyre not using it anymore, and i would build two, 3,000 of these, and be able to fly them for under 10 million apiece. Thats pretty cheap up there. 10 million bucks. And the cost per hour, flight hour, is how the pilots get back up to 40. So americas got to end up with airplanes they can afford in large numbers because you got those beautiful Aircraft Carriers and you got to have airplanes to put on them. My question is what can we afford. So i build a lot of cheap ones. That one in the hands of a good driver would take anybody on. And theres the f14. Thats my wish. I wish we had them. I wish we had them. Somebody saw fit to destroy all the jigs in all the history in that airplane. So we cant rebuild it right now. And id sure like to have about a thousand of those to put on the Aircraft Carriers. There i am. As i said, you know, if you behave yourself and youre a good guy, somebody gives you a boat. That was a wonderful 600 feet long, and maybe 50,000 tons, and crew, i had 14 authors and a crew of 400 in the best story is my supply officer, when we went the indian ocean, i looked at the invoice of what we had on board, so i would have an idea when i talked to other captains that we were resupplying. And i look at the invoices, 3,000 turkeys. He said, well, were going to be gone thanksgiving and christmas and new years, and he said, do you really want us to have some fun, well just negotiate with all the ships and company and give them holiday turkeys. So we got known as the big turkey out there. And theres my ranger boat at the top. Thats how we refuel at sea. And theres mama. Thats the love story in the book. I met her on her 14th birthday. I dont think i dated anybody else. And i went away to serve my country and fly. And i didnt see her for 32 years. She married a College Football player. But there was a time in our life, both of us, i dont want to tell you all of it, you got to read the book. 32 years later, i met her, been married 27 years, and she is just my soul mate. So thats mary beth. Uhoh, the penguin. Oh, they didnt put the other picture in there. Theres the one picture of beth and i today. Sag. Thats all we have. Is that it . Thank you very much for your patience. [ applause ]. Well do it again. Youre watching a special edition of American History tv airing now during the week while members of congress are working in their districts due to the coronavirus pandemic. Thursday night at eight eastern, the Supreme Court Historical Society holds a discussion with university of arkansas law professor mark kellenbeck, exploring the details of several dissenting opinions delivered between 1810 and 1927. Hes introduced by associate Justice Steven bryer. American history tv now, and also watch over the weekend on cspan 3. Cspan has around the clock coverage of the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic and its all available on demand at cspan. Org coronavirus. Watch white house briefings, updates from governors and state officials, track the spread throughout the u. S. And the world with interactive maps. Watch on demand anytime unfiltered at cspan. Org coronavirus. Next, a conversation with u. S. Army air corps veterans recounting their experiences as Fighter Pilots during world war ii. Speakers included one ace fighter pilot, and two tuskegee airmen. This is from the 2019 American Veterans Center Conference in washington,