We dont know who the architect was who did that expansion and who built the bell tower. Tragically, latrobe had already died at that time. He had died in new orleans. And i imagine there might be some historians in the room. And if anyone is interested in helping us solve the mystery, we would love to know. The bell tower is very beautiful addition to the church and inside the bell tower, it houses a bell that was forged by paul reveres son, joseph revere. Stamped on it, it says 1822 boston revere. Its not the only revere bell that came to washington, but it is the only one that is still in its place and being youd for its oernlg purpose. Its interesting, too, to think about this building. This is the only building on Lafayette Square that goes back to the era that it goes back to, that is still being used for the purpose for which it was built more than 200 years later. And im very happy to say that we are open most days of the week and we welcome anybody who likes to come in and just spend some time and be in this gracious space. I also feel compelled to mention that it usually looks a little different than it does tonight. Stewart was telling me, this could be practice for our new televangelism ministry, which i do not intend to develop. James madison was president in 1816 when st. Johns opened. And the church decided to offer him a special pew that would be reserved for his use anytime he wanted to come to church. That would be the president s pew. Back then, there were actually boxes, and you rented your pew box. And he was able to use his pew box free of charge, and he received that offer and a decision was made to put the president s pew right in the middle of the people, rather than up in front, which was the high status pew boxes. They wanted his pew just to be among all the other people who were here for prayer and worship. And that tradition continued in 1842 when the pups that exist now were installed, that youre all sitting in. In 1842, the president was president tyler. And he personally made sure that the president s pew would be in the exact location where the pew box had been, beginning with madison. And it is a fact that every president beginning with president madison has worshiped in this space at least once. Many have become regulars and some have even become members of st. Johns during their presidencies. One detail that really stirs me is to think about the time during the civil war, when Abraham Lincoln would walk alone across the park from the white house. In the evenings, his regular sunday Morning Church was new york avenue presbyterian church, a few blocks in that direction. But in the evenings, he would walk alone across the park and he would sit in the very last pew on the south side, right over there. And you can imagine what was on his heart during those evenings, as he came for a little bit of space, a little bit of quiet time to reflect and to pray. And he would always leave just before the end of the surface, so he could leave undisturbed. Its a prayer of mine that this space will continue to serve as a place where people can come and have reflection, can have a little bit of space and grace in this city that moves very quickly. And i want to say to you all that our aim is to be open to all people, no matter what background, no matter what denomination or faith tradition, that we want to be here for all of our neighbors, a house for all people. Now, i am really excited for the conversation that we are about to have tonight and its important to say, its good to remember that in those early years, those people who passed through this space, who lived and spent time in the neighborhood surrounding this building, all of those people, no matter what color of their skin, no matter their stature, no matter their disposition, every one was affected by the economic and the moral reality of the institution of slavery. And one historical detail that i want to leave you with, a poignant note, the second rerctr of this church, his name was reverend william hawley, he would have the practice of baptizing africanamerican babies and marrying africanamerican couples in his home. And as the historians in this room who have been working hard on the essays that are being produced know very well, we dont have all the records that we would like to be able to tell the story as fully as the story needs to be told, of that time. But we have, in our own registers that we have collected upstairs skpr in the church archives, we have the registrars of all of the baptisms and all the marriages and in some of them, we see the notes, where it says where it took place, when he would marry africanamericans, he would usually do it in his home, and his family would be the witnesses. On january 11th, 1828, reverend hawley married emmaline mathews and william patriots. Elmmaline was listed in the registry as colored and william was listed as slave. And the very next wedding listed in the same registrar took place in the white house for John Quincy Adams son. Thank you all for being here tonight to have this important conversation that we are privileged to host and i will now welcome forward my good friend, stewart mclaurin, the president of the White House Historical association. Thank you very much, rob. And to reverend fisher and the people of st. Johns church, its wonderful to be in your historic home, in this historic neighborhood here tonight, for this very, very important conversation. I also want to thank the string queens who performed for us, as you were coming in. Theyre our local washington, d. C. Group, and its wonderful to have them with us tonight and i hope you enjoyed their music. To our friends joining us tonight by cspan and on facebook live, welcome. We hope you enjoy this conversation. And it encourages you along with everyone here to dive deeper into the topic that well be unpacking for you this evening. Im here tonight on behalf of the board of directors of the White House Historical association, our National Counsel on white house history. Many of them are with us tonight, welcoming you all for this wonderful conversation that our historians have been working on for several years. It was in may of 2016 at a speech at the city college of new york and later that summer at the Political Convention in philadelphia. First Lady Michelle obama delivered a speech on both occasions that included these words. I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves. In the days that followed, our phone lines, our email, our internet, our press office, our historians were all inundated from the public, the press, people wanting to know the story behind those very compelling words. My first call was to dr. Lonnie bunch, that will be part of our conversation tonight. Say, lonnie, we need to know more about this story. We know anecdotes, but we need to know names, we need to know dates, we need to know specifics. Its the peoples house, the white house, but we need to know about the people that built the house. And the people that impacted it beyond the president and the first families. He was very generous to introduce his historians at the National Museum of africanAmerican History and culture to our historians and thus began a threeyear project, delving into this topic. During that time, we had the privilege to host a Decatur House, a group called the president ial leadership scholars. This is a program that is a collaboration of the president ial libraries and foundations of president s clinton, both bushes, and president johnson. And they bring together these young, dynamic early career leaders. And they were at a program at Decatur House right across the park, where as rob said, are our headquarters. They went up into the historic slave quarters that night and i think they were intrigued, encouraged, maybe a little inspired, but they took us to task that we needed to do a better job of telling that story and interpreting that space. So we folded that story of Decatur House and the last remaining example of slave quarters in the president s neighborhood into this story that were telling tonight. We previously, this week, earlier this week, unveiled our website, emphasis on this topic with a treasuretrove of Research Documents and papers and at whitehousehistory. Org, you can find all of those when you go home tonight and encourage your friends to do so as well. This is not the end of what well be doing. This is really the beginning. Were raising the curtain on this conversation and we want to encourage it through our continued research and Ongoing Program that well be undertaking, as well. This fits with our mission. We were founded in 116 by first Lady Jacqueline kennedy, to be the nonprofit, nonpartisan partner to the white house. Every year, we provide nontaxpayerfunding to maintain the beautiful standard of those state rooms you see on the main floor of the white house. But also important to miss kennedy was an education mission. She challenged us to teach and tell the stories of the white house and its history going back to 1792 when George Washington selected that piece of land across the street and hired the young irish architect to build the white house. We do that through building programs, such as tonight, our books, publications, quarterly magazine, our robust website, social media, a podcast, many other ways. We have teacher institutes where we bring teachers from all over the country. We engage students and i actually have some friends of mine here tonight who are students. Reverend fisher mentioned the president s pew. Well, seated in the president s pew tonight are students from Calvin Coolidge high school in washington, d. C. They participated in a podcast with me and wonderful students. And i would like them to stand. Are they here . [ applause ] and so tonight, theyre in the president s pew. And one thing we like to think of as educators, as we plant the seat and water the seed, but we may never see the results of that education. And we hope one day, these students and their peers are back here, maybe as president of the United States, sitting in the president s pew. So theyre great friends of mine and its great to have them here this evening. We have the privilege of having two wonderful presenters tonight, David Rubenstein is the cofounder and coexecutive chairman of the carlyle group. He has been the chairman of the board and held senior governance positions with Many Organizations that youre very familiar with, including the Smithsonian Institution, the john f. Kennedy memorial performing arts center, which is the living memorial for president kennedy, the harvard corporation, duke university, council on foreign relations, and many others. He has a heart and a passion for pra patriotic philanthropy. And he invests in places that are involved in history like the White House Historical association, our sister institutions that are supporting history causes, Great American monuments like the Lincoln Memorial and the washington monument, he has helped save. He has been a giver of transformational gifts that allow us through the david m. Rubenstein National Center for white house history to have programming like this and undertake the research that we do. Were very, very grateful to him for that support. If youve had the opportunity to watch him on his television show, on the bloomberg network, peertopeer conversations with David Rubenstein, i know you will enjoy that, as i have. He is the recent hes recently an author of a book, the american story, conversations with master historians. And through his generosity, you will all be receiving a copy of this book as you leave tonight. [ applause ] our other presenter tonight is dr. Lonnie bunch, who is the 14th secretary of the Smithsonian Institution. Hes the first africanamerican and the first historian to hold this very Important Role in our country. [ applause ] you know him well as the founding director of the National Museum of africanAmerican History and culture, and as i mentioned earlier, he was the very first person i called when this Initiative Came on to our radar screen. He, too, is the author of a new book, a fools errand creating the nationshtional museum of africanAmerican History and culture in the era of bush, obama, and trump. And i want you to read this, because it tells the amazing story of someone who is able to move and mix and make things happen across political lines and beliefs. And thats a wonderful thing in this day in time. And his role, as is our role at the White House Historical association is the same regardless of who the president and the first lady may be. Our role is to support the people of the United States and the resources that they have here in washington, the Smithsonian Institution and the historic white house. He is the adviser to many boards, including the committee for the preservation of the white house, which we work with very closely and collaboratively. And we are really thrilled and honored to have both David Rubenstein and lonnie bunch with us tonight. Please join me in welcoming to the stage. [ applause ] so, lonnie, you think in 1816, when this was opened for james madison, youer i or our ancestors would have been here . The back door, right. So were very honored to be here tonight and this is an Historic Place and a terrific place to talk about the white house and history and slavery related to it. Just before i dig into that, though, at the africanAmerican History and culture museum, i want to get tickets to go and see something, how do i get tickets to go . Because everybody wants to go see this museum. Well, everybody has been calling me and ive been trying to say that im no longer there. But what im struck by is the desire is so great that a few months ago, a woman called and said that she wanted tickets. And i said, you know, i dont do that. And she said, youve got to give them to me, because i was your girlfriend in seventh grade. Ive got to be honest, when youre 13, you remember every crush, and i didnt know that person from adam, but i gave her the tickets because it was a good time. So thats the technique that people should use if they want tickets. So that museum, it took you how many years to get that from beginning to end . I worked on it for 11 years. And when you took the job, how much money did the federal government give you for that . When we began, we had one staff, no collections, no money, no idea where the museum would be. The smithsonian had 1 million to get started. I spent that in like two weeks. So ultimately, you got artifacts largely given by citizens of our country. How many artifacts and historic things did you bring to the museum . We collected nearly 40,000 artifacts, of which 70 came from the basements, trunks, and attics of peoples homes. We realized that the idea that this culture, this history was still available, we felt the only way we could do it, if we could get people to share with us their stories, their families, their histories through those collections. So among the things you have is you have nat turners bible, Harriet Tubmans shawl, but the most popular item in the museum is which one . Chuck berrys candy apple red cadillac. An artifact that i did not want, did not think it was important, which shows you my leadership skills. And how many people have been to the museum since it opened . About 7. 3 million. And the average person who goes to a Smithsonian Museum spends about an hour and a half there. What is the average time someone spends in this museum . 4 1 2 to 5 1 2 hours. So it tells you that if you Craft Stories in a dramatic way that people will spend the time to understand it. So were really pleased its become the kind of in some ways pilgrimage. People feel the need to be part of. So were really grateful to have the opportunity to work with people like you and the gifted staff to create that museum. So the federal government ultimately put up 72 million. How much have you raised from citizens around the country . About 350 million. Okay, very impressive. So, lets talk about the great birth defect of this country . How did it happen that this country had slavery . Was it ordained when settlers came over here that we were going to have slaves . How did that actually come about . What you have are really two systems that are created. You have spanish colonies in florida and mexico where they begin to bring africanamericans, some enslaved people, as early as 1550. In what became the United States, you have the first frankl africans coming in 1619 in james town. But the process of becoming a slave took time. Initially the africans were like indentured servants. Within 30 to 40 years, it was clear that africans were then restricted to slavery for life. And so what you realize is that slavery is both an economic system, a system of labor, later its a system of social control, as more and more africans come to this world. But i think the most important thing to remember is that slavery from the 17th, 18th, and 19th century was the most dominant institution in the United States. That almost every aspect of our culture, whether it was politics, foreign policy, industry, was all shaped by either slave trade, slavery, the labor of slaves, or the money that was invested in slaves. And ive always been struck that when you think on the eve of the civil war, there was more money invested in slaves, in the enslaved population than in railroads, banking, business combined. So it tells you, ifs so central to understanding who we are. So thats why this kind of conversation is so important, because this is not an ancillary story. This is the central story to helping us understand who we once were and shaped us who we are to this very day. So the first african who is came here, were they brought as indentured servants, where theoretically theyd work for a few years and then leave, or was it clear they were slaves from the beginning for forever . I think its clear that they were viewed as different. But i think kind of the way that we can tell by the formal records, its really the 1640s to 1660 that you see the institution of slavery made sort of concrete, if you will. So ultimately, in south america, Central America, and the United States, what became the United States, a total of 20 million slaves at one point were, i guess, here, but how many were actually brought over . Mostly more in Central America and south america than in the United States . What you have to realize is that only 13 of the millions of africans that were taken from africa and brought to the new world, only 13 came came to the United States. More came to places like brazil, in the caribbean, but yet that 13 became such a large, important part of the population of the United States that it really sort of began to outweigh its initial numbers. Well, larger numbers were in brazil and other places, because they died much more rapidly, because of the lots of the weather and other treatments and so forth. Is that right . Well, you also had sort of the agriculture was better developed in terms of sugar and the like in the caribbean, so thats where it started. Okay, so, totally, the United States brought over about, was it, 800,000 or 600 to 800,000 africans who came to the United States. Now, obviously, they reproduce and so forth. But at the time of the ref lugs, we had about half a million slaves. Right. And at the time of the civil war, about 4 million slaves. At the time of the civil war, we had about 4 million enslaved frankl africans and about 1. 5 freed africans in both the north and south. If you were brought over on a slave ship, what was the chance you would survive . Theres a lot of debate about mortality. Many people feel that 30 to 50 of those that brought on those ships perisheded. Either perished on the ships or on the way to plantations or mines where they actually worked. So it was key that that Middle Passage was really something that was hard for people to survive and it really was one of the markers of understanding the impact of slave trade on the africans. So when the declaration of independence was agreed to, more or less on july the 4th, 1776, we fought a revolutionary war that went on until 1783, finally finished the tree of paris. At that time in the declaration of independence, was there any mention of slaves . Was slavery anything that put the people in the declaration wanted to mention as a problem . Or they didnt address it . I think that, you know, theres this whole discussion around jefferson sort of beginning to identify the treatment of the colonists like they were enslaved. But i think there was such a concern that if you begin to explore the question of slavery, you, as colonials, have to figure out, what does that mean for us . And so i think slavery is always the most visible thing, but also the thing thats often tried to not be mentioned. And jefferson is considered the author of the declaration of independence. There were obviously people who made changes along the way, but he wrote this famous sentence that became the most famous sentence in the english language. We hold these truths to be selfevident that all men are created equal, but how can he say that when he had slaves throughout his lifetime, how did he actually get away with saying that . Thats what i call the paradox of liberty. On the one hand, here is jefferson, who defines our notion of what liberty is, what independence and freedom is, but then you realize, the only reason he was able to do that is because he understood what slavery was. In essence, because he saw and used the power to control other people, he understood what freedom meant. But i think that for me, whats so powerful is, how do you unpack that . How do you help people understand that at the same time he is seen as a symbol around the world of freedom, hes also a symbol around the world of american culpability, american embracing of slavery. And in essence, for us, were still as a people trying to untangle that. Trying to really be clear what it meanses that we are a nation of freedom that was based on slavery. So, when the revolutionary war is over, the treaty of paris is signed, we go through government and the articles of confederation, that wasnt thought to be working. So a Constitutional Convention is held in philadelphia. And in that Constitutional Convention, George Washington presides over it. Is there any mention in the constitution, when it finally is revealed, of slavery . Well, theres always these amazing debates in the constitution. And one is about representation. And the notion was that representation is based simply on population. Well, to many people, that meant, do you count slaves, the enslaved population . Does that give the south more impact, more influence . So you have the three fifths amendment. Where enslaved people are counted as three fifths of a person for taxation and for representation. And that really sort of speaks to the way enslaved people were viewed. That they werent completely human. That they were not equal. The word slave is not actually youd in the constitution, per all the obvious reasons, they didnt want to quite admit what they had, but aobviously recognized it and in effect, they banned the importation of slaves after a certain period of time, but they still didnt use the word slave. But lets move forward. So the capital of the country initially is new york. George washington becomes the first president. He lives in new york. But then Congress Passes a law saying that were going to move the capital to philadelphia and then, eventually, a place south of that, in order to deal with certain debt issues that the government had. There was a compromise and ultimately, it was decided to move it further south than philadelphia. George washington is given the right to pick this site and he picks something on the potomac. Why did he pick this potomac area . Well, in some way, it was a place that already had, you know, georgetown was here, there was some sort of tobacco trading. He had the river systems. So he thought that this was a really nice spot that was between the north and south. Okay. So theyre going to build a capital city here, federal city, not yet named after him, though eventually it was named after him. Was were there any slaves living in the Washington Area at the time . Well, from the very beginning of what we call the Washington Area, there were plantations. So there were enslaved people that lived here before it became officially washington. So to build the city of washington, did they import labor from overseas or did they just use slave labor . Who really built it . I think washington is built by many people. It is built by immigrants that are brought in to work, but theres a strong sort of enslaved population that turns the land from, you know, swamp to farmland, that begins to identify and cut down the trees, the timber that is used, that also quarries the stone, so that enslaved labor is touches all aspects of what would become washington, d. C. So lets suppose im a plantation owner and i have some slaves. I want to help the city of washington or what became washington be built. I would say, ill have you use some of these slaves. Would i get paid for that and did the slaves get any of that compensation . What did slave labor get, typically . What you have is first of all, you have people who use their enslaved population to do the work and those folks rarely got compensated. Then what would happen is many times, enslaved craftspeople and others were hired out. That you would say, i am building a building and i need to have labor. I would like to hire three of your carpenters or three of the people that you work with. Usually what happens is, the person building the structure would pay the plantation owner. Sometimes, it was done in a way to incentivize the slave that they would get a small portion of that. But it really was most of the revenue went back to the owner. So the government is operating out of philadelphia, as theyre building the city of washington, but became washington, d. C. , and George Washington is supervising it. Hes picking various people to help with the design. He picked somebody to design the white house. Is that right . Mmhmm. And that was someone from europe, who actually was the designer. When they started building the design or building the design that had been agreed to, was it slave labor that actually did build the white house . Over 200 enslaved people worked to construct the white house. That while there were craftspeople from ireland, england, and parts of the United States that did a lot of the work, ten slaved people played a crucial role. They did a lot of the quarrying of the stone from virginia and gettinging the stone up here. They did a lot of the work of getting the lumber, doing some of the initial work that needed to be done. So there is no doubt that you do not have a white house without the enslaved labor. So when it was finally completed, it took about eight years to finally build the house. George washington was no longer president and the president was john adams. He came down, lived here only for a few months before his term was up. He only served one term. But did he when he lived there, did he have any slaves servicing the white house . Adams didnt own any slaves, but there were enslaved people who worked at the white house. So that you begin to have enslaved people working from almost the inception, really through into the 1850s, working in the white house, itself. So he was very careful not to ever own slaves. He didnt believe in slavery, i guess. But he, in effect, had some enslaved people working at the white house, and he presumably knew they were enslaved. Well, there was labor that was needed. So there were for adams, there were people that did the laundry, some of the people that did the work around the exterior who took care of the horses were enslaved. Okay, well, adams was seceded by jefferson. Jefferson was a big slave owner. And he had a longtime relationship with the slave, Sally Hemmings. Did he actually ever bring Sally Hemmings to the white house . What jefferson did is that he brought some of Sally Hemmings family to the white house, but what jefferson did was that he brought a portion of his own enslaved population, but often he used people that were already here. Because you wanted to keep people on the plantation, but jefferson realized, like so many, that the key to his success was to not to have to pay for all the labor, but use enslaved labor to save money. So jefferson was seceded by madison. Madison also was a slave owner. Did he bring slaves to the white house . 9 of the first 12 president s brought enslaved people and used enslaved labor to the white house. So youre really trying to figure out, what do you need to get a building going, a white house going. What do you need for the entertainment, so what they realized is that its slave labor that was going to provide the foundation for them to craft and create what became the white house. So one of his aides or assistants was a slave named Paul Hemmings who later wrote a book about what it was like to work at the white house. Did that book have a lot of credibility . Did people believe what a slave wrote in those days or why did they accept it . I think its important to realize that the enslaved people often didnt have a voice, but when they had the opportunity to write or to have their stories to told, they shared them in a very candid way. Its one of the first books to help us understand what life was like in the white house. And it was interesting, because through the lens of someone who was enslaved brings a special richness to it. So many people who were from the north were against slavery, but they didnt have any problem going to the white house where there was slave labor. They just accepted that it was part of life in washington . Well, remember that there was a difference between being opposed to slavery and feeling that africanamericans are equal. Are people that you can interact with. There were people that were comfortable from whatever parts of the United States were comfortable with africanamericans and a second class citizen doing the kind of basic work that needed to be done. They may have opposed slavery, but they also didnt champion inequality. So in the early days of washington, d. C. , when, lets say adams and his president , jefferson, madison, monroe, washington was mostly a white city . But there were some slaves and some freed africanamericans . Throughout the 19th century, approximately a third of the population of washington, d. C. Was africanamerican. Now, there were places like georgetown that had a predominantly Africanamerican Community in the 18th and early 19th century. And what you have in washington is what i love to say is this neighborhood that were in was a black neighborhood. It was a neighborhood of unequals, but a neighborhood where many africanamericans lived, many as enslaved, some as free. So i think its important to realize that for many people, africanamericans, washington, became their home, and they did a variety of jobs to be essential to the city. So there were a fair number of freed africanamerican slaves here but also a number of africanamerican slaves. Did you have to carry papers with you down the streets, so if someone said to you, youre slave, you shouldnt be doing this or that. How did they handle that . Washington became a place where the free black population began to grow. Often, when people gained their freedom in places like virginia and north carolina, they were encouraged to leave. Not to stay. Many came to washington, d. C. As you get into the 1810, 1820s, you begin to develop what we call black codes. There were laws passed to control the free black community, to make sure that they registered. There were laws that in the 1820s that said, if you were free and black and wanted to stay in washington, you needed to have somebody white write a letter attesting to your character. There were laws that prevented africanamericans from being out together after a certain time at night or reduced the number of africanamericans that could come together. Part of this is out of fear, part of this is out of social control. Andrew jackson, when he became president , he became a slave owner as well. Did he bring slaves to washington, d. C. , as well. Andrew jackson is so interesting on many levels. Not only does he bring enslaved people, but during his administration, through the trail of tears and others, they have this removal of all of these indians in the southeast, which opens all of that land up for agriculture and for southern plantations. What happens, as a result of jacksons administration, you have thousands of africans who were enslaved in maryland, delaware, north carolina, d. C. They moved south. Theyre sold south to bring the new plantations and that changes the dynamic of the city. The white house today faces Lafayette Square and jackson park and a lot of town homes that have been restored there. Those homes were initially built by slaves . A lot of those homes had slave labor involved. There were crafts people, sometimes free, sometimes not so a variety of people. And part of what i love pant what the White House Historical society is doing is helping us understand more about who did what. In some ways, this work thats being done really gives humanity back to these people who we say were just enslaved. One of the houses that is still on Lafayette Park and is Decatur House, which is where the White House Historical association has its offices, so Decatur House was named after a famous navy admiral, steven decatur, who in a dual, died and didnt live very long in that house, butted that house had slave quarters in it. Is that right . Thats one of the houses that we have. There are probably other houses around this area that changed over time, but that is one of the special places to be able to actually go and stand in a space that the enslaved lived. So Abraham Lincoln is elected president in 1860. And before he in those days, the election were in no, but you didnt take office until march, so there was a long period of time in between, in that period of time, a number of Southern States began to secede from the union. So lincoln moves to washington, at that time, when he came in as president , 1861 and took office, was there a big africanamerican population then in washington, d. C. . Was it larger than the white population, but still a slave area, is that right . When lincoln is elected in 1860, you have a population of about 12,000 freed africanamericans and about 6,000 enslaved. So you see that although there were a large number of enslaved people earlier, by the time lincoln comes, there is a strong slave population and theres a black population. Where it grows dramatically is once the war breaks out. And that there are many africanamerican enslaved who selfliberate, who leave to come to union lines or who come to washington and there are literally tens of tens of contraband camps, camps for the selfliberated at 7th and florida up by the old soldiers home. So washington is changing as a result of the civil war and more and more africanamericans formally enslaved are coming into this area. Abraham lincoln never owned any slaves. Is that correct . Thats correct. I think his father was very antislavery as an example of the way he was brought up, very much against slavery, although Abraham Lincoln was not a great abolitionist. Is that correct . Lincoln believed his big issue was that they shouldnt extend slavery into the New Territories that were acquired after the Mexican American war. I think he believed, as well, that slavery was embedded in the constitution. He believed in the constitution, so he thought, as long as Southern States alone have slavery, that was sanctioned by the founding fathers, more or less, was his original thinking. He obviously changed bit. Okay, so hes in the white house and then the civil war, hes conducting that, and does he decide that it would be a good idea to free the slaves to kind of help end the war . Why did it take so long for him to come up with the emancipation proclamation . I think part of it is, as lincoln always said, he wanted to preserve the union. And if preserving the union meant protecting slavery, so be it. But ultimately, as the war went on, he realized that there were a couple of things that needed to be addressed. First of all, he had to make sure that the confederacy didnt get the support of european allies. So one of the things he wanted to do was to add a kind of moral justification to the war, so you can say to the french, to the english, to the spanish, this is about freeg people, not simply about an internal civil war. The second piece that was important was that lincoln recognized the centrality the labor of the enslaved to the south so what he wanted to do was to disrupt that by encouraging people to flee areas that were still outside the control of the union army and this would and one of the bills he introduced would be to, in effect, free the slaves in the district of columbia, and in his complicated way was to free them, it would be gradual and the slaves would be moved somewhere else in what was called colonization. Can you explain what colonization was . One of the meeting was the belief that you have these africanamericans that are so different, that ultimately, if they were not held in bondage, that there would be a great problem in the United States. You know, jefferson always said that slavery was like having a wolf by the ear. If you let it go, it would get you, or it was a fire bell in the night that would shock you, so many people felt that if you were going to eliminate slavery, you also had to eliminate the enslaved. And so lincoln was part of a group of people that believed that the key was, let us end slavery, but let us colonize, send them to latin america, back to africa, so that they can colonize with sort of the christian spirit that they learned in the United States, but that would be a way to solve the problem, because there was a concern that if you had all of these freed people, what do you do them . Do they strike back, because theyre angry from the way they were treated. That was lincolns notion. He tried it several times. He never got anywhere in congress, but when he was president of the United States, he still was enamored with it, and he had a famous meeting with africanamerican leaders in which he said, come to the white house, i want to talk to you. What did he actually say to them . What he said was, i need your support in this idea of col colonizing parts of Central America, that we would sent the newly freed to Central America, and many of the africanamericans, the notion of going outside the United States by choice was a debate within the Africanamerican Community. The notion of being told to leave really angered so many of the abolitionists. So people like Frederick Douglas were really offended and attacked lincoln when it became clear that his initial notion was send these people outside the United States. So for those who may not be expert on what Frederick Douglas did and who he was, he was a freed i guess he was a slay who had escaped, eventually bought his freedom, but what was his role in society in those days . Well, Frederick Douglas was sort of someone who escaped slavery from the Eastern Shore of maryland, ended up first in philadelphia, then new york, then new bedford. And he became someone who became one of the leaders in the abolitionist movement. A brilliant speaker. He became he was befriended by abolitionist leaders like William Lloyd garrison. And douglas becomes the voice of black america. He creates newspapers, he debates with lincoln. He really was seen as somebody who would sort of demanding that america live up to its stated identity, stated ideals. Hes not the only person to do that, but he was considered the most visible africanamerican in the 19th century. Now, he was very articulate, very eloquent, and many people were surprised by that, because in those days, if upper a slaved, you were not allowed to learn how to read, it was considered against the law in some states. Is that not the case . In some states, yes. How did he actually learn how to read, and was that part of his appeal that he was very educated and people were so surprised to see such an educated africanamerican in that time . Well, i think, douglas there were two things that were crucial to enslaved people. One was freedom. That was the most important thing. But the other thing was that maybe the key to freedom was education. Being able to read. And so douglas was able to learn to read by playing with some of the children that he grew up with, overlooking a kind sort of mistress who gave him so lessons. But douglas was just someone who was a voracious reader and had a desire to learn. And he was a selfmade man. He really became someone who focused his career on struggling for fairness in this country. So he met with lincoln, i think, on three occasions in the white house. Did he actually have a bond with lincoln . Did lincoln actually like meeting with him and so forth . Well, theres debates around that. I mean, i think that initially, lincoln was concerned that douglas was so critical of his colonization standard. As lincoln is thinking about the emancipation proclamation, suddenly youre talking to people like Frederick Douglas about, how does this work . And douglas becomes then, if not a champion, more of a supporter of lincoln. And there is this amazing scene near the end of lincolns life where lincoln speaks at his second inaugural and douglas is there and douglas is trying to get in to see lincoln and hes being stopped by some of the guards and lincoln sees him and waves him in and says, you know, come in, friend douglas. So i think that there was a relationship. Im not sure its as close as some people like to make it. Well, after lincolns assassination, though, his wife, or i guess the estate gave his walking cane to douglas as a gift, is that right . Mary todd lincoln, his widow, gave a walking cane to Frederick Douglas to symbolize what she thought was the bond between them, but also to symbolize that lincoln was somebody who opened the door and led to the freedom of the enslaved. So if the emancipation proclamation is signed on january 1, 1863, the war ends roughly in april of 1865, and then the 13th amendment is ratified after lincoln dies, but its ratified, so slavery is eliminated. So when slavery is eliminated, everything in washington is fine, blacks can live next to whites, theres no problem, everybody is treated equally. Is that right . Oh, im not sure thats even today. [ applause ] so how did it happen . The 13th amendment, then the 14th amendment gave citizenship to blacks, the 15th amendment, the right to vote. How is it the case that washington became still as segregated a city, pretty much, as almost any city in the deep south . Well, remember, segregation was initially a northern phenomenon. That its really boston, new york, philadelphia that passes laws to prevent africanamericans from going to theaters, that really segregates communities. So it wouldnt be surprising that washington became a segregated city immediately after the civil war, because it was segregated even before. So even when i was young in the 1950s, i lived in baltimore, but my parents would bring me over here, washington was as segregated pretty much as plor w baltimore was. So the fact that it was the Nations Capital didnt really change anything. Washington, d. C. Was no different than other large segregated cities in the south. Is that right . Except there were two differences. One is that washington had the federal government. And so there were opportunities for employment that many africanamericans had. Not at the highest level, but they had the steady jobs that you could get from the federal government. And also, washington had washington, d. C. Had Howard University. And Howard University is so important that people undervalue its impact, because it really made washington a center of black thinking, education, creativity, and that was also part of the appeal of coming to washington, d. C. One of the interesting things about washington, d. C. Is that in the constitution, there was no provision for it to have any electoral votes, and therefore people who lived in the district, large numbers of them were africanamerican, didnt have any right to vote for president or at least members of congress, i should say, so why was that the case . And why did people not say that people that lived in the district should have some voting representation in congress . Okay, now youre asking me to do my politics. You know, i think that in some ways, there is this debate about what a federal sector is. You know, are you a citizen there, what are your rights . I think that the challenge of washington is that it really is a place where you can call it the sort of last colony. Its really a place where they dont have the and i think its important to really grapple with the fact that youve got 600,000 people or more, many of whom are voting age, who really have limited rights that are not the same as people around the country. In addition to not being able to vote for members of congress or at least have members of congress who have rights to vote in congress, the district was for a long time run, in effect, by the federal government. The citizens here didnt get to pick their own mayors. I think that really home rule is really a 1970s creation. So lets go back to finish this story, while were almost done with the story of race in washington, though weve also compressed, you know, a couple hundred years into 45 minutes. We missed a few interections and the like. Because lincoln is assassinated, reconstruction doesnt go quite as smooth as people thought it would have gone under lincoln. Andrew johnson was not exactly the same person as Abraham Lincoln. Reconstruction led to jim crowe laws, the ku klux klan, lynching throughout the south and so forth. And washington, d. C. Didnt do that much about federal government. It was largely controlled by some southern members who are not really that favorable to africanamericans. Not until the civil rights revolution in the 1960s did washington get more interested in actually trying to change these things. Is that when it came about, when the civil rights revolution came along, that the federal government officials said, we have to do something to change the laws in this country . What you have, washington, d. C. , again, because of Howard University, was really at the forefront of demanding fairness in the 1920s, 30s, 40s. So it really wasnt that they waited until the 1960s, but the pressures on the federal government, the leadership that the Civil Rights Movement did, the visibility that it received utilizing the media and television put pressure on the federal government to change. So in august of 1963, theres the famous march in washington. The federal government at the time didnt want it and president kennedy thought it might lead to violence. There was a lot of concern about it, but it actually went forward and turned out not to be violent at all. But people were so afraid, schools were closed. Martin luther king was the last speaker that the last speaker because in some ways he was considered the leader of the community and they wanted to give him the best spot. I thought they were afraid that he was so articulate that if he spoke first, the others wouldnt look as good. You dont believe thats the case . John lewis said that. Thats not true, okay. So he spoke and he gave his famous speech. That famous speech, the i have a dream speech. Was that something that was written out for him the night before, was it a speech writer who had given that text . And the next that he actually had, he kind of departed from it. Why did he do that . There were many sources. He had said portions of that speech in other places around the country. The story is that as hes giving his speech, jackson, the great gospel singer that king admired, yelled back at him theres a picture of her turning and looking at king and saying talk about the dream, say the dream. So the argument is that he changed that to respond to mihalea jackson. Thats a great story. Its not true, but its a great story. But he knew he was going to do his i have a dream. That was a speech he had given before, and he kind of did it from memory. But many whites who saw it, they were mesmerized, they had never seen him speak that way. And many blacks were mesmerized, but some people traveled and hadnt heard the speech before. So after the speech is over, is he invited to the white house . Well, after the speech is over, what happens is that the kennedys are moved by what theyve heard and what theyve experienced, and i think they began to realize that if theyre going to grapple with civil rights issues, one of the people they need to deal with is Martin Luther king. So he becomes sort of a person that the kennedys initially go to and theres this wonderful story of, you know, during the election of 1960, dr. King is arrested and there was a notion of who was going to help him, was someone from the nixon administration, from the kennedy. And the kennedys actually sent people down to protect Martin Luther king and help him get out of jail, and some people argue that really was what helped many africanamericans suddenly believe that somebody from massachusetts with an accent we didnt understand could really champion their cause. So president kennedy is assassinated november 22nd, 1963, just a few months after the march from washington. Linden johnson, a southerner and a man who was closest friends in the senate were segregationists, he becomes president. Would anybody have predicted that he would lead the effort to get the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed, and why did he do that given his background and knowledge that this would probably hurt the Democratic Party in the south . On the one hand, youve got to remember that when Linden Johnson was a teacher in texas, he was very involved with trying to improve conditions for the latino community. So there is a part of johnson that wasnt just a calculated political move. I think he really felt that fairness was essential and that, yes, he knew that it might hurt the Democratic Party from the white south, but he thought it would ensure that africanamericans would also rally around the party. And i think that what is so powerful about Linden Johnson is that he has the political sophistication, the connections, to be able to go to some of the dixiecrats and southerners and say i understand who you are, weve got to change. So eventually the 65 voting act is passed as well, but Linden Johnson is probably the most important person for those acts that passed, is that right . He was the indispensable person . I think it was a combination of Linden Johnsons political acumen and the pressures that are put on by the Civil Rights Movement. I think that as people begin to see birmingham and selma and the violence that africanamericans and others endured, there is a sense that the country has to change and johnson sort of rides that wave. So if somebody is watching or somebody is here today and they say, well, im very interested in what you had to say, what books could i read that might give me more of a flavor of what washington went through in the civil rights era, what slavery was in this country, how it was dealt with eventually by the constitutional amendments, what would you recommend as good books for people to read . Well, anything by Taylor Branch really gives you a good sense. Taylor branch wrote a threevolume book on civil rights revolution, one of which won the pulitzer prize. And i think one of the best books to understand race in the 19th century is the biography of Frederick Douglas. Which also won the pulitzer prize. And there is another book which hasnt yet won the pulitzer prize, which is your book. [ laughter ] so highly recommend that book and thats available on amazon and anywhere else or the smithsonian . I would never champion my own book, but its on amazon and its on audio book. [ laughter ] so lonnie, before we wrap up, you have given your professional career to causes related to civil rights and slavery, knowledge of slavery, and obviously creating the africanAmerican History and culture museum. So any regrets that you didnt go into private equity or something more noble than what youve done, and how did you actually come to this career as opposed to something more important like hedge funds, private equity or Tech Startups . Every time i need to put a new roof on the house i wonder that question. Im lucky. I grew up in a family that valued education and, for me, i remember growing up in a town that was very few africanamericans and there were people that treated me horribly and other people that treated me fairly. And i couldnt understand why. And i remember thinking, talking to my parents that maybe if you read history, youll understand a little bit about these interactions. And so ultimately history became, first, a way for me to understand myself, and then it became a way for me to think here is an amazing tool that could help a country be made better. Here is something that, if people understood more about their past, their expectations, their hopes, it could change the country for the better. Youve told a story before and you might briefly tell it again. When you were younger, your father would take you and your brother and your mother, you would drive to the south. And you wouldnt stop at certain places, but ultimately he would take you to the smithsonian. Why was that . What happened was during the mid 60s it was the era, the centennial of the civil war and like many kids, i was fascinated by it. And one easter we drove from my home in new jersey to visit my mothers family, and i suddenly saw all these museums in petersburg and richmond and i would say to my dad can we stop at the museum of the confederacy, and he never stopped. And so on the way back, i thought, okay, im going to plan this and give him plenty of warning, and i told him 20 more miles to the museum. And he kept going. And normally he would drive straight to new jersey. Instead, he pulled into washington and he pulled into the smithsonian, in front of the museum of American History today, and he said heres the place you can learn about your past, your country, and not be concerned about the color of your skin. So, for me, the smithsonian has always been a place of fairness, a place of possibility, a place where a young kid couldnt learn stories in some places, but the sitting sewn y sitting sewn yen always gave them that opportunity. So i feel very humble to be a part of the smithsonian. I was the cochairman of the Search Committee that selected lonnie unanimously, and one of the great things about lonnie having been collected was that when he was officially inaugurated, his mother was there. So what could be better than having your mother come to see you . Did she think you should take that job . It was the first time my mother said to me i guess a history degree was okay. [ laughter ] lonnie, i want to thank you for what youve done for our country, thank you for what youve done for the smithsonian, and good night. Thank you. [ applause ] thank you. Thank you very much. Can i get a hedge fund . Thats what i would like. Thank you very much to dr. Lonnie bunch and David Rubinstein for this conversation. In a decision to the books that have been recommended, i would like to invite everyone to our website, whitehousehistory. Org where theres a treasure of information on the Decatur House, those enslaved in Lafayette Park and those enslaved to our early american president s in the white house. Thank you all for being here and support of our historic mission. [ applause ] announcer week nights this month we feature American History tv programs to preview whats available every weekend, here on cspan3. Coming up, White House Historical Association Historians talk about their jobs and the Organizations Mission to protect and preserve the executive mansion. Next, historians Matthew Costello and lindsay travinsky. Then a conversation on the life and legacy of former first lady pat nixon. After that, we tour the white house gardens and learn how president s and first ladies developed and used their gardens during their time at the white house. Up next, White House Historical Association Historians Matthew Costello and Lindsay Chervinsky talk about their jobs and the mansion. American history tv on cspan3. Matthew, youre Senior Historian at the White House Historical association and i read that you wrote or said that the white house touches on almost every facet of American History. What did you mean by that . And give me some examples. I always see the white house as a place where you can study American History through a wide variety of perspectives and lens. So if youre interested in the people, you can learn more about the people who live there, the people who work there, the people who built it, the people who repaired it. If youre interested in looking at things like artifacts, objects, material culture, paintings, fine arts, decorative arts, the white house has all of those things as well. If youre into politics, policy obviously, thats probably the big one that a lot of people think about. But even in terms of pop culture, or political culture, understanding that the white house is a symbol for american democracy and how that symbol has changed and evolved over time. It says a lot about who we are, the american identity itself, and i think all these different ways of studying the white house, you know, touches on all these