Transcripts For CSPAN3 Benedict Arnold 20240713

Perhaps, maybe say noted for the wrong reasons. For generations the name Benedict Arnold has almost universally illicited a one elicited a oneword descriptor traitor. Today were here to hear the rest the story. The program would not exist today without the extreme generosity so were delighted they join us tonight as it give us the opportunity to express our deep appreciation of all they have done with our program. Not just for tonight in particular, but everyone. Please stand. [ applause ] todays speaker earned her degree from in comparative history. She is published widely including essays in the wall street journal, financial times, usa today and other news groups. Ladies and gentlemen, its a pleasure to welcome to the podium, j. Joyce. Dr. Joyce. Thank you very much. A pleasure to be here. I want to thank the professor and the sponsors for inviting me. Its a real treat for me to be able to talk about this subject. The state of the union at Benedict Arnolds time was not good. [ laughter ] hes widely known as professional crawly said, for treason. Before that, he was one of the great heros of the revolution. And i would like to get into some of the details and the context in which hes it was acting in that revolution. It didnt really seem to make sense about someone who actually risked his life on numerous battle fields who, the congress didnt pay his men, he paid them from his own resources, and really took that opportunity to serve his country before he decided to change sides. Theres a picture of the man in his younger days. He sat during a court marshall. By the way, he was court marshalled not for any military problem but for some of the feeling he had misused his position for financial gain after he was wounded and serving in philadelphia as the commander there. He said i have suffered in the same fabric of reputation, which i have been with so much danger and toll raising since the present war. Undermined by those whose posterity as well as themselves will feel the blessed effects of my efforts. Below that is a description of one of the men who fought besides him and who he lead at the battle which was the beginning of the battle of saratoga. He was dark skinned with black hair. There wasnt any waist temper in him. He was our fighting general in a bloody fellow he was. He didnt care for nothing. At any rates, these damning judgments about him didnt seem to make much sense and i wanted to have a better understanding of what he did before and why he decided to change sides. The sort of classic historian of british army said this about arnold. He said in natural military genius, neither washington comparable to arnold. He possessed all the gifts of a great commander to Boundless Energy and enterprise and united quick insight into a situation. And command this. Benedict arnold was the most formidable opponent that could be matched against the british in america. Now, and particularly, i guess, advertised in that tv series turned his lovely young wife has become equally notorious and regarded as the eve who tempted her husband into committing treason. Ill say a bit about peggy when i get to that point in history, but, obviously, there are a lot of events in arnolds life. Im not going to be able to talk about unless you want to stay here all night. Im going to highlight some of the particular points. I want to go into the battle of lake channel plain and start in october of 1776. The british had amassed some 13,000 british, irish, and german troops in canada ready an assault going down champagne. Theres a lot of emphasis on trying to single out new york state and separate it from new england in order to give them an advantage. They had bringing over ships and the americans had no ships on the lake to combat the british fleet. It was four miles wide at the widest point and about 400 feet deep in some spots but also very shallow in the inlets. The new York Committee of safety was desperate about trying to build some kind of a fleet in order to stop the british fleet from coming down the lake and taking albany. They asked arnold to build that fleet. Im from upstate new york, its not the ideal place to be building a fleet of ships. En in good weather. But arnold had been brought up by a father who was a merchant seaman. As you can see, he spent summers on the sailing ships with his father going across europe and upanddown the coast of north america. His father died after a career where he became depressed and alcoholic and bankrupt and arnold started his own business and became a merchant seaman, as well. He was an ideal person to ask to build ships. He tried to recruit artisans to build the ships. It was hard to get seamen because most of the people who were experienced seamen were with washington trying to protect manhattan from the british. He personally selected 20,000 boards of timber to build the ships. The timber has to be aged because otherwise its going to crack and be useless for the ships. This was the main ship that was going to be his. Its called the royal savage. He was responsible for snatching it from the british after he took ticonderoga the year before. They got the ship from canada. He also built a couple of skooners and galleys that were oil 80 feet by 20 feet and two masts. And the series of ships were called gondolas. They are traditional gondolas. They actually carry a crew of about 45. They have six cannons and then one mast. Theyre shallow. Prepared to come down Lake Champlain. This was the largest of the british ships, thunderer. The british had much bigger fleet, as you can imagine. Flexible and thunderer were the two larger ships. They each carried six 24pound guns. They 20 gunships and five large vessels. And thunderer was the largest ship ever seen on Lake Champlain. All of arnolds ships together had a combined cannon weight which is the way they evaluate. The cannon weight of 2 703 pounds. The british ships by contrast had a combined cannon weight of 1300 pounds. They had almost twice the firepower arnolds fleet. Arnold is surveying Lake Champlain to find a proper place to send his fleet to await the british coming down from canada. He decided that they he would take his fleet. If you have a smaller force, you dont want to be out in the open. You want somewhere where youre protected to be in the shadow of an island called valker island which you can see on the map. Looks much bigger on that map than it actually s but arnolds ships are the little clear ones in the shadow of that island. And they hid there from august until september 23rd when he took his ships with 500 men to the island. They were painted red so they would blend with the leaves that autumn. And camouflaged with spruce trees which were sharpened on points and put around the edges of the ships to keep enemy sailors from boarding. They waited for the british fleet to appear. The british were spotted at 8 00 in the morning. The british didnt have that island on their map. They came sailing down and they went beyond the island, you can see the dots going down. And didnt even see arnolds fleet until they were about five miles south of the island. At which point they turned and had to go upstream in order to fight the americans. They went toward the british ships to lure them into the shallows around the island. But he got caught in the crossfire and his ship got stuck on a reef and just devastated. He had to switch to another ship called the congress. By noon the fighting is general, the noise of the cannon could be heard 30 miles to the south. The battle raged for six hours. Its real why to his credit that this little fleet was able to keep the british, this much bigger british fleet filled with experienced sailors and offers fighting for six hours. By the end of it, 80 men were killed or wounded. They used up three quarters of the ammunition. And the ships were in really bad shape. They retreated further into that channel next to it valker island. And the british were just assumed that in the morning they would be able to finish off this Little American fleet. Arnold had a plan. Unfortunately, his route of escape was to the south, down to crown point and then the british ships were, as can you see towards the south end of that island, you had to figure out what to do. Im just going to reach a little section from the book about this. This is that evening. They rode through the black waters. Arnold prepared for this moment. He had a plan, a desperate but doable plan. The fleet would escape that evening by slipping between the british ships blocking the Island Channel then dash south to crown point to safety. It was an exceedingly risky strategy. Many of the vessels were badly damaged and some were leaking. The little fleet with its 500 sailors had had lost 80 men, killed or wounded including officers with 20 others captured. If any of the british crew spotted them, they would be vulnerable and readily destroyed. But what other option do they have . It was a moonless night and they set out at 7 00. A heavy autumn mist shrouded the american ships as they began moving in single file. The mens shirts and kept the wounded below deck so that their cries and moans would not be hurt and alert the enemy. Each ship is completely dark except for a small lantern and the shrouded one in the bow. A chalk mark on the rear rails lit by a slit in the lantern made the vessels turn just visible to the ship immediately behind. Wiggleworth and the galley trum bled, one by one the gondolas and smaller vessels followed in silence. The congress with arnold aboard and the washington were last in line. The procession pass sod close this he could here the sailors cheering. They unlocked the three largest men of war a mile out from the western shore of the lake inadvertently leaving a passage way for the american ships to slip through. They got through that night. The next morning when the british admiral was convinced he would be able to just finish off the American Fleet, he discovered that they were gone. They could not have done. That he didnt know. That first went north looking for them and then when he couldnt find them, he turned around and went south. The american ships had gone about seven miles to sky letters island in order to try to repair some of the ones that were repairable. And then they head ford crown point which is 28 miles to the south. As they were going, the british eventually caught up with them. And so two of the ships, the congress that washington was on and the ship washington turned to fight the british fleet, well, the rest of them got away. The washington was really badly hit and its commander surrendered leaving arnold and the congress alone against the british fleet. They fought until the masts were torn to pieces with little flag flying with the tread on the flag were so familiar with in virginia. And eventually ran out of ammunition and with the ship torn to pieces, he broke through on some of the little gondolas and made for a creek that was on the vermont shore. The men waited ashore with the weapons. The ships and burned the ships so that british would not be able to take them. They then began a march through the woods. They finally reached it on october 15th. The admiral in charge of the british fleet had caught up and destroyed most of the American Fleet but it was now late in october. He didnt have any particular supplies up in that part of Lake Champlain and in new york. He didnt know what to do, whether to wait and through the spring and, you know, stay there right through the winter or not. He decided it was too risky staying there. His ships might get frozen into the ice. So he turned around and went back to canada. The result was that even though arnolds fleet was destroyed, they were able to hold the british up long enough that they saved new york and albany for another year. For the gallant defense they made against the great superiority of the enemys force. The historian was scathing about carlton having to go back up to canada. After that, arnold went with gates south to washingtons camp. And he was there about the time that washington decided to cross the delaware and attack trenton. By the way, washington actually had to do that. Because the men were in such shorten short enlistments, while he had them under the command, they crossed the delaware and were able to conquer trenton and waits one great victory for that time. Congress decided. They deprived him of any of his general officers. We read about soldiers of france and germany coming across, you know, to join the army, they were given superior commands by congress, not by washington. And there was a lot of disgruntlement among the officers of the American Army that these people were brought in over the, you know, put in superior positions over them. They took from washington this ability to appoint and discharge the officers. Then they promoted five Junior Officers to Major General ahead of arnold. Most some of the people had never done anything and washington was really amazed that congress had done that and wasnt sure why. It turned out that apparently you were only according to Congress Allowed to have so many Major Generals depending on the number of men that you were in regiments from your state. It was considered a polite way of telling you were no longer wanted. I was thinking that even today sometimes when somebody is appointed over you, theres this sense that maybe this is a nice way of saying were sorry. So at any rate, he was ready to resign. But washington asked him to stay on and he said he would stay as long as washington felt the services were needed. He went back to connecticut where he had his wife had died but he had three children who were being looked after by his we read about soldiers of france and germany coming across, you know, to join the army, they were given superior commands by congress, not by washington. And there was a lot of disgruntlement among the officers of the American Army that these people were brought in over the, you know, put in superior positions over them. They took from washington this ability to appoint and discharge the officers. Then they promoted five Junior Officers to Major General ahead of arnold. Most some of the people had never done anything and washington was really amazed that congress had done that and wasnt sure why. It turned out that apparently you were only according to Congress Allowed to have so many Major Generals depending on the number of men that you were in regiments from your state. It was considered a polite way of telling you were no longer wanted. I was thinking that even today sometimes when somebody is appointed over you, theres this sense that maybe this is a nice way of saying were sorry. So at any rate, he was ready to resign. But washington asked him to stay on and he said he would stay as long as washington felt the services were needed. He went back to connecticut where he had his wife had died but he had three children who were being looked after by his sister and his business that she was looking after, not in a very good way. She sold off virtually all of the equipment and supplies that he had. But that was her way. At any rate, he was treated as a hero in new haven and hartford and middletown. But while he was there, he got a message that the well, he was at home trying to figure out his finances, he got a message that the british had landing troops in connecticut and were on their way to take some of the supplies that the americans had been gathering there. A currier had arrived at home with his news. Some 26 ships were spotted off of shore south of new haven. Danbury was lightly defended. Two generals were leading 600 militia and had already marched off hoping to protect the supplies at danbury and arnold rushed from his home to join them and rallied the militia to help him. The officers and men arrived about four miles from danbury at 2 00 in the morning only to learn the depot was already in flames along with many houses in the town. And the british led by the governor of new york accomplished their goal and they were gone. The americans werent sure which way they had gone and were determined to head them off before they got back on their ships. So they divided their exhausted troops to take them on. Pursuers and pursued struggled through driving rain. Members of the connecticut militia were proud to rally hund arnold and joined him. The british were heading for ridgefield, town of ridgefield. Apparently they had some really good information. They set homes of known patriots ablaze and the church where the munitions were stored. A lot of People Living around that were happy to tell them who they should be looking for to harm. One of the men who had taken some of the troops had taken two men along another route than arnold. In fighting this elderly gentleman, he received a fatal wound. Arnold and another general began a march to ridgefield with 500 militia and they caught up with the regulars about 11 00 in the morning. They had 500 men but the troops were outnumbered by about 2,000. Im losing my here it s 2,000 of the british regulars. Arnold ordered his men to make a make shift barrier. Here we go. Heres ridgefield. We didnt want it to be arnolds horses. He was always having horses shot under him. When youre brave and on a horse that, horse doesnt have a very long lifespan. In his case, this case the horse fell and it trapped his leg under it. A young local dashed up to him shouting surrender, youre my prisoner. And with the mighty effort, he freed had himself saying, not yet. And drawing his pistol he shot the man in the chest. He then lept over a fence and bullets were spraying around him. The following day sent off a message to waylay the regulars from the front while the men attacked him from the breer. The british learned and they were able to get away. After this rallying of the troops and trying to protect connecticut, congress relented and they gave arnold his promotion to be Major General. But they did not restore the seniority. But at least they decided to give him that promotion. They were talking about how grateful for the things hes done. This is the major one. When he was at saratoga, washington sent him because he felt that the militia would follow him. It took selfconfidence and a spirit to rally people in order to do that. The officer would was in charge of the army at saratoga was general gates. Who would like arnold when he built the little fleet on Lake Champlain. But arnold was a protege of washingtons and gates was someone who wanted to replace washington. He was jealous of arnold. He had been dpind to the tent during the battle by general gates. And left without any command. The ground was shaking from the pounding of the great guns. After being confined to the tent and ill go a little bit into why that happened, he could tolerate no more and mounting powerful dark horse he dashed toward the battlefield shouting to his aides, no man shall keep me in my tent today. If i am without command i will fight in the ranks. But the soldiers god bless them will follow my lead. Come on, victory or death. I gallop straight into pursued by John Armstrong who gates, general gates had had ordered to bring him back. But arnold was faster in catching up with the brigade. He asked the men who their officer was. A soldier shouted colonel latimer, sir. He was delighted. My old friends. P god bless you, im glad to see you. Now come on, boys, if the day is long enough well have them all in hell by night. The idea that someone without any official command could get out on that battlefield and the men would follow him. And they did. The reason that he had no command was, as i say, general gates was not fond of him. He was jealous of him. He wanted him to go back to basically leave the army there. The men petitioned they wanted arnold to stay. So even without a command, he stayed. Person that did not leave the tent that day is general gates. Spent the whole day in his tent and one hifz men who came to tell him what was going on found gates was spending his time arguing with a wounded british officer about the merits of the revolution. He was very disgruntled that he couldnt convince this officer that the battle is a good idea. There is gates in his tent, you know, arguing with a wounded enemy. First attack was beaten back. But a second with bayonets fixed the infantry from the brigade. Leading brooks regiment, an a. A first attack was beaten back. Suddenly arnold was aware of the sally port where the british lines opened up for anybody that needed to retreat. And he head his men right at them. There was a weakness in that line and thats where they needed to go. Map of sarah toga, and you can see the different men that the morgans line and they were all american officers, and theres gates at the back there, his headquarters, you can see in the southern part of the map and then arnold going toward that read out. He attacked the read out at this sally point. The germ arounds facing them as they went. One bullet hit arnolds great dark horse killing him. The animal fell pinning arnold. Now, a musket fall hit arnold shattering his leg just above the bone. It was a leg that had been hurt the year before he had heeled and that was just shattered. One of the men who saw arnold fall, arnold shouted to edmond from the ground where he lay helpless and in excruciating pain, dont hurt him. Then he shouted to his men rush on my brave voice. When arnold was hit, one of his fellow officers asked him where he was hurt when he went down and he said in my leg. I wish it had been my heart opinion later on he was carried from the field bleeding and helpless. He waved away the officers who hurried to help him. When captain dearborn asked where he was hit, he said he wished it had been his heart. Armstrong who gates had said to catch him and bring him back caught up with him. He was hurt. He did he was unwilling to go back to head quarters. The man caring for one of their own placed arnold on a litter and carried him to the field hospital. Horatio gates was given the honor much having won that great battle and congress had minted a special coin and theres a wonderful painting of the surrender. This was a great turning point in the revolution and because of that great victory, the french who had been helping us decide to come out openly and support the americans and it was basically because of them that we won. Once the french got into the war, the english realized they were going to have to pull back a bit. This was really a tremendous help. Arnold spent Something Like three months in a Military Hospital in albany in terrible pain. The doctors wanted to amputate his leg. And he would not allow them to do that. The amputation would probably have made sense because he may have gotten gangrene. I think he probably did not want to because he didnt want to live a cripple, he would have preferred to have died. I have a picture of him falling during that battle. After three months i was okay. He survived. But he was having to learn to walk again, he was really really badly maimed from that, it was never completely held. I should say on that note that years later, when he was in exile in britain, he had several sons who joined the british army, a couple of whom fought in india, and one of those sons was shot in the leg and refused to have the doctors amputate it, and he died of gangrene. Arnold was just willing to put up with that, because he was now wounded. He could not take the field. And he was sent to philadelphia by washington. The british had evacuated philadelphia, leaving a terrible mess. The pennsylvania government had fled from philadelphia when the british came. And now all of these people would have to come back to their city. And arnold was to be the commander to ensure order and stability as they came back. The this is where he meets peggy shippen. Lets see if i have her this is arnold at philadelphia. Heres peggy. She was known as the most beautiful woman in philadelphia. People now dont think. We look at that picture and think, she doesnt look that spectacular. All of washingtons officers were in love with her, she was lovely. She was 18, her family were neutral, her father had been a judge working on one of the admiralty courts for the british, and then when the war broke out obviously he left and tried to remain neutral. The stories about her. The stories of her having an affair with andre are not true. I hate to tell you. Actually, she was wooed by arnold and married him much. The government of the pennsylvania was led by a committee, a council of seven people, and they were very radical. They had fled when the british took over, they came back, they had a long list over three names of people they wanted arnold to arrest right away as people who were possibly loyalists or certainly were suspect. 332 people. And also some people that they wanted to convict with a bill, which is just voting in the toy. Arrest all these people, and one of the other founders of our republic james wilson defended a lot of those who had been accused of treason by this counsel im. They didnt like arnold at all. He was too moderate for them, they resented him, and by the after he had been there a couple months, they had drawn up a whole list of charges against him they felt he was not being. He was misusing his position. He used public wagons. He paid for them, but they didnt like the idea. They crossed over from pennsylvania to new jersey with those. They drew up these charges. Printed them in the local paper, sent copies to every other state, and insisted that the congress courtmartial arnold. I should say we sometimes forget the congress was in philadelphia, so the government of pennsylvania did have the congress right there in their backyard, and it was a little hard i think for them to deal with these people. Arnold was oppressive to the faithful subjects of this state. Highly discouraging to those who have manifested their attachments to the liberties of america. There was also and i hadnt realized this until i started studying this issue, a lot of Division Within the patriot side, there were people who were more moderate, people who were more radical. And the radical Pennsylvania Council had gotten the militia charged up. At one point the more moderate people in philadelphia including wilson and morrison and others, were actually barricaded in their house against this radical militia, which sunshine rounded the house and attacked it, bringing rods and crashing on the door, there was shooting that occurred. Fighting broke out, and 6 or 7 men were killed. This is among the patriots on both within the patriot side. And others badly wounded. Arnold rushed when he heard the fighting, by the time he got there, the council had appeared and they simply arrested everybody. When he was charged by the council with all of these infringements. The congress decided that washington had better have some kind of a courtmartial. And arnold wanted it, because he thought it would help clear his name. There were courtmartials all the time. I was amazed. At any rate, two of the charges were he was convicted of one on the wagons, and in fact they the Pennsylvania Council had threatened there would be no wagons for the Continental Army unless they got arnold on this particular point. They had washington write him a letter censoring him. And its around this time that he decides to approach the british. One of the other things that happened to him, and then ill conclude, is that even though he resigned as commander in philadelphia, he was attacked in the street by thugs who claimed that he was in favor of the loyalists, had to draw guns to protect himself, he asked the congress if they could provide a guard for him. And then said well, we cant do that, but ask the pennsylvania government. Of course the pennsylvania government were the people who really disliked him, he just sort of felt like there was no way to get around these people. They also felt he had not been careful enough with the money they had given him for his military campaigns and that he owed the Congress Something 1,000 pounds. I should say im running out of time, congress didnt pay him for years. But they insisted he owed them 1,000 pounds. He had was besieged by all of these things. He had allowed the british to take west point where he had become commander of west point. And this was found out the british officer john andre was caught on his way back to british lines where the plans were stuck in his boot. You can see this being taken out, he was cornered by three men who basically were probably bandits waiting for rich people to come by. But they when they had him take off his boots, they realized he was a spy probably and took him to the nearest military headquarters where he ended up being charged as a spy. He was a gallant man, and even though he was a spy master, everybody thought he was wonderf wonderful. The people who captured him wept as he went. He was a very sympathetic person. I should say the british never forgave washington for having done that. And then some years later andres bones were dug up, and cartsed off to britain where theyre buried in Westminster Abbey and poets corner of all places. Arnold, eventually when the british left, went with them. Peggy, his wife was at west point with him when this plot got discovered. She had only been there a couple weeks, she was there with her 6monthold baby, i dont believe she knew anything about what he was about to do. Its unlikely he would have told her. She was given a choice of going into exile with arnold in new york. Or going home to her family in philadelphia. And she decided to go home to her family, and im sure that if she was guilty, she would never have done that. She wanted to stay with her family, but the council in philadelphia did not want anyone who was connected with arnold getting information of any sort back and forth and so they insisted that she go into exile. Her father took her she was his favorite child. Took her up to new york to go into exile. And i dont think he ever saw her again when the war was over. She and arnold were evacuated to london and thats where they stayed the rest of their lives. Their only monument to arnold is this boot that was erected by someone who served an officer in the civil war. The battlefield at saratoga, its of a leg that arnolds leg that was shattered during the battle of saratoga. Theres no name on it, but on the back it says, in memory of the most brilliant soldier of the Continental Army, who was desperately wounded on this spot. October 17, 1777. Winging for his country the decisive battle of the American Revolution and for himself the rank of Major General. He obviously made a terrible decision in siding with the british, and all of the things that he had done before to support the cause and secure American Freedom have been just lost in the memory of this terrible treason. Theres a stained glass window that this is a picture of that was erected by a resident of new jersey not long ago. And in the London Church where arnold and his wife peggy and their daughter are buried, and it very tactfully says you can see the british flags and the american flags, it diplomatically says on it the two nations whom he served in turn in the years of their emity endure their friendship. Thank you very much. [ applause ] were ready for questions. Let me ask kali. You told us arnold was brave. But yet he was a traitor, he went over and lived in britain for so long. Why didnt we go after him . Why did we allow that. Washington had a price on his head when he before the british left, arnold was in new york and he led a couple british campaigns. One in virginia, actually, and one in connecticut. And there was a price on his head and people who were after him, but they were never able to capture him. Washington was unwilling to release andre in exchange for arnold. Which is what the british officer of clinton would have done. Theres some sense that the british were really quite annoyed in a sense. Arnold was they got arnold, he escaped and went to them. Andre who they cared about a lot more was captured. Maybe arnold would have been willing to betray it. The british were willing to do that. Once the british left and went back home. There wasnt any chance of that. He volunteered to serve in the british army later. They didnt accept him, and he came home and said they will not let me die a soldiers death. But thats a good question ab t about. Other questions . We have one here. Were you surprised with what you found out about arnold when you did the research . I really was. I was surprised at the amazing ability of the man. He had never had any special military training. Yet he was just a brilliant officer and leader, and had that kind of charisma that made people want to follow him. He also was one who would not tolerate fools, and so he had a string of enemies the other thing i found surprising was this division of the patriot side. They actually had a shootout in philadelphia. That amazed me, i had no notion of that. In plain view, americans are being assign ed british royalty positions. In lieu of that, isnt it hypocritical for america to keep calling Benedict Arnold a traitor . I thought it was diplomatic. Its strange that we think of people who rebelled against britain as patriots. They were all patriots to britain. It was franklin who said if we dont hang together we should hang together i think that he was a traitor to the side that won. If britain had won the war or we had negotiated which is what a lot of people had hoped much he may have been considered a hero. He chose wrong, he had spent all this time and sacrificed his fortune and his health. And everything, all his property was taken, he could never go home. It was really sad. I mean, i called the book the tragedy of Benedict Arnold, because i think it is a tragedy. When he decided to sided with the british, he did so because he thought the british were going to win the war . I think so. At the end of it, they still insisted that they owed him 1,000 pounds which he did not have the money to pay. His father had been bankrupt and a debtor, he felt he wasnt being respected. Honor was one of the most key things. I think he felt dishonored. The british were saying, look, we will they actually sent a commission promising the americans everything they had first asked for except independence in saying, well give you all of this, if you keep fighting you may not win anyway. And at the end of the day, youll have all of these things and spare yourself more bloodshed. That makes sense that people will stop fighting. They got quite distraught and very few people wanted to serve in the military, and congress wasnt paying them. There was a lot of reason to be spirited. It would have saved lives if they had had some kind of an agreement. Thinking about it, the monday morning quarterbacks long long afterwards, it made some kind of sense, it was a real shock and particularly since he had been such a hero, it was a terrible shock. Youve touched on this, i was wondering what you think of the portrayal of Benedict Arnold in the serious turn. I have to confess, i havent watched it, im a historian and i get quite upset by things that are historically inaccurate. But i have heard and i know that whole story about peggy is not true. And, of course, they gather i gather that shes partly responsible for his treason. I mean, the things they say about him dont make sense. If you were selfserving and greedy, why would you risk your lifetime and again for the cause. I guess i should watch that, and i could be more thank you for your comments. I was wondering if you could address Benedict Arnolds relationship with free masonry, as he was a mason here. George washington was made a mason here in fredericksburg. Ive been a mason almost 40 years. We talk about him in our lodges and some of the guys overseas. Theyre not even supposed to mention his name in a ma sonic lodge. I wonder how arnold would have reconciled his decision. If you can tell me a little bit about his may sonic history and how it related to his decision to do what he did. Thats an interesting question. He was he sets up his business in new haven, that was one of the earlier places in connecticut that had a ma sonic lodge. It was prestigious to be a part of it, he was nominated to be a mason. He was a respect ifbl member of the community. I was impressed by the fact that he was a young man without a with a family background that was clouded by his fathers having been a drunkard and a debtor, he had done so much to build up his family that they made him a mason. That was really surprising. I dont know more about the masons then more internationally than that. People regarded him as a very enterprising young man. How did he make a living after he left for england . He got a pension from the crown and peggy got a pension from the crown. He also tried, he had three son s in connecticut. His wife died in 1776, peggy was his second wife and he had more children with her. He was constantly trying to provide for his children. So he went to canada several times and set up a business there for his sons which wasnt too successful he spent a lot of time trying to make ends meet. Particularly trying to do something for his children. That was sort of respectable and kind of a Family Business at that point. He had a lot of trouble worrying. And living in humble circumstances. You know how in new haven one of his sailors was going to turn him in for sail iing running the guy out of town i think that most of the americans were quite happy to live with the smugglers, the goods were cheaper john hancock was a famous smuggler. Juries that tried smugglers, american juries found them innocent. They did not want to try them before american juries, there was no way you were going to convict anybody. I think there was a general conivance with this type of thing. They resented this guy telling about the smuggling. You mentioned that after he went back to england he then joined the british army and invasions in connecticut and virginia, which, of course, is true. My question is was this part of the west point deal . He would become a british officer against the americans. The british were still in control in new york. And he had wanted to serve as an officer in the british army, that was part of a deal as it were. The british were cagey about what they were going to do for him. He wasnt a field officer very much for a while, because of his serious injury. And they kept saying no, dont worry, well take care of you. He knew that as soon as he went to the british he was going to lose all his property. Everything that his property in pennsylvania and in connecticut. And so he really needed to have some kind of a position, and he wanted a military position. It was part of then arrangement, and then he was on these two, he had these two short campaigns. One in connecticut and one here in virginia. One of which sent jefferson fleeing from the from this area. Other questions . Last chance. Now, one more. Perhaps theres a lesson in the motivations that will seep yore commanders have, have you notices that the plot of the ilidea follows the story of Benedict Arnold so closely . At the center of which is a woman . Yes, helen. I hadnt noticed that, but thats interesting. I dont think a woman was so central to this one actually, it makes it sort of exciting to think that peggy was faithful and she stayed with him in exile but not very happy, she came back to the u. S. Once after years later to see her friends and family in philadelphia. But it was very sad, most people didnt want to have anything to do with her, she went back to london. All that classical note. And before we say thank you again, let me tell you whats coming up thursday of this week. If youll put it up there, well take a look. It is a look at jane goodall by her primary biographer dale peterson, this thursday, i hope you will be here for that. And with that, we will say thank you to professor malcolm. [ applause ] thank you very much for being a wonderful audience. Great questions too. Thank you. Week nights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as a preview 6 whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight the society of the cincinnati founded in 1783, youll hear from tea coal jones on his book captains of liberty. About 18th century prison camps and how the congress handled pows. This week and every weekend on cspan 3. Every saturday night American History tv takes you to College Classrooms around the country for lectures in history. Why do you all know who Lizzie Borden is, and raise your hand if you had ever heard of the jean harris murder trial before this class. The deepest cause where well find the true meaning of the revolution is in this transformation that took place in the minds of the american people. Were going to talk about both of the sides of the story here, the tools, the techniques of slave owner power, and talk about the tools and techniques of power that were practiced by enslaved people. Watch history professors lead discussions with their students on topics from the American Revolution to september 11th. Lectures in history on cspan 3. Lectures in history is available as a pod cast. Find it where you lissen to pod casts. Up next on american mystery tv, james haley author of captive paradise, the history of hawaii. He discusses the life of lilliuokalani. This is a 75 minute talk