I am the Vice President of the Constitutional Center outreach center. I want to welcome you. We are spending a lot of time marking the orient anniversary of the Voting Rights act, looking at through the lens of , the a low liuzzo. Liuzzo. Im sure you have been upstairs. Least the stories of at are 2200 people and they viola liuzzo and john lewis, who was supposed to be here tonight, but is stuck in washington. Derry may wrote a very interesting and compelling book to talk about the fbis role in the murder of viola eurozone liuzzo and other factors. Gary, thank you. [applause] mr. May thank you. Thank you to everyone body was removed for autopsy. You may recall he was a teenager who went down to mississippi to visit his uncle and cousins. Ot entirely sure what happened he may have flirted with a young 21yearold woman at the grocery store. Know till was kidnapped from his uncles home by two men in the middle of the night and tortured and murdered. His body was thrown into the tallahassee river by his killers , in the hope that his body would rest there forever. His body decomposed, releasing floated tohe body the top. The body now has been returned to till grave where it will produce any Additional Information to help the justice open the case, it is unclear. It is thought that there were more than two people involved in tills murder. Its just as well perhaps that was there. Ant she is still alive. The other two men are gone. So, this is still an ongoing case. Wright killangar was convicted in the murder of three people. This is a process of going back over these cold cases over a decade. Those who committed terrible crimes, no matter how far in the past they may have occurred. Was aniuzzo extraordinary woman, a , who purchase in the some a,ights march in montgomery. At the conclusion of the march. He was looking at a colleague she was stopped at a stoplight near the Edmund Pettis bridge and discovered there was a car behind her. There are four members of the alabama ku klux klan who spent the day traveling around observing the marchers, open to have an opportunity to assault a civil rights worker. This is the target they were looking for. They followed viola liuzzo and her companion. A highspeed chase ensued. Finally the klansmen car pulled around and they shot into Viola Liuzzos car. She was killed instantly. Incredibly, her companion was unarmed and was able to make his way to safety. Whats extraordinary about this case is not only that her sacrifice, and that of others who lost their lives during the Voting Rights march, and helped to accelerate the passage of the Voting Rights act, what is more the fbit the case informant was in the car. Tommy roe. He became an fbi informant and what led him to a fiveyear of violato the murder liuzzo. Select tommy fbi roe as an informant . Was 26 years old. He was a selfproclaimed hell a bar. A bouncer in someone who had one dream and that was to become a Police Officer. He had not graduated high school. So he had not met the minimum to become a Police Officer in alabama. He became a county sheriff, claiming that he had graduated from high school. They caught him, and he was rejected. Yarns, burned really, to become a Police Officer. Around with police in birmingham, parted with them, rode around in their squad cars at night and at the was friendly with members of the klan. Policeman were also friendly with members of the klan. Become anot want to klansmen. He thought it was silly. He said, if i wanted to test somebody i would not have to hide behind a good to do it. He was tough. He was extremely willing. He was asked if he would serve his country by being an fbi informant. It did not take much convincing. This was the greatest moment of rowes life. He always wanted to be a Police Officer. To be ans being asked informant. The agent made clear to him he was not an agent and if he broke the law, he would be arrested like any criminal, but rowe saw his role in a more romantic way. Jamesknock a redneck bond to was going to be an undercover agent inside the klan and thats exactly what rowe became. The fbi instructed him not to become involved in violence, to not be involved in the planning of the stages of violent events, but rowe quickly learns that was impossible in the fbi recognized it to. It, too. Ized he said you may find yourself in the middle of a riot and you may have to throw a punch or two and we understand. Which was fine with rowe, because he enjoyed a good fight probably more than anything else. So rowe, what is so extraordinary looking at his record during this fiveyear period and his relationship with the fbi, you would have thought if the informant got involved in violence the fbi would be concerned about that if not critical about that, but the opposite was true. They understood that in order to protect his cover and convince the klansmen he was authentic, he would have to commit violence. Furthermore, the more accepted he was, he would rise further klan and be in a position to get more information. Dramaticthe first incident he was involved in was the attack on the freedom riders in may of 1961. After just a year in the klan, have become so important, the Birmingham Police force, which wanted the freedom riders to receive a beating, turned to rowe to set it up. So, rowe the fbi informant became the liaison between the police and the ku klux klan. That bull connor, the Infamous Police commissioner of birmingham, one of the toedom writers riders receive a beating they would always river. The klan had 15 minutes. Rowe was in the thick of the fight. A man who was not a freedom come to thead Police Station to pick up his beyonce. Fiancee. Were not a protected investigation. They were investigative organization. If the federal law was being violated they could step in. Were they angry at rowe for what they he had done that day . Absolutely not. Received a bonus of 150 dollars in washington was informed by these special agent in charge that rowe was the most active, the most intelligent, and the most reliable informant they had inside the klan. Spent the next several years in this kind of activity, rightsg blacks, civil workers and the fbi to not only accepted this, but really encouraged it. There is some evidence that rowe may have been involved in ofhaps the most infamous act the 1960s, the bombing of the Baptist Church in deming in birmingham in 1963. The evidence is a little sketchy. Knew these bomb was being planted. Apparently the klansmen thought the bomb would go off in the middle of the night. Of course, they were not very good bomb makers. The bomb went off the following morning, tragically killing for young girls. Knew a bomb was being planted. Maintained he had no knowledge of it. I dont find that credible. Of the menll involved. Throughout 1962 in 1963, when the bombs 1962 and 1953, when the bombs were going off, so often that birmingham was wasedbombingham, rowe always the first to know there were going off. His fbi contacts were asked, dont you think it would be peculiar that rowe would be the first one to report a bombing . Oh,the agents would reply, no, we just thought he was bring a good citizen. To marchbrought rowe act. And the Voting Rights he was in the car. He later said he did not fire his gun, and later, after the , he immediately called his fbi contact. They met in a parking lot in the middle of a rainstorm. s gun,nt examined rowe concluded it had not been fired and pretty much accepted rowes version of events. They happened on viola liuzzo and her companion, chased them down and perhaps killed her. Wereext day, the klansmen arrested. It was extraordinary moment. Lyndon johnson had become so interested in the case that when onfirst heard of the murder the night of march 25, he immediately called j edgar wanted information. He continued to call the bureau through the night. He was told the following that the fbi had one of their men inside the car. He said that he had been along for the ride. Andas very excited announced the arrest over nationwide television, broke into regularly scheduled johnsonting and announced the arrest of the klansmen. At that point, he included Gary Thomas Rowe as one of the suspects, but he was not arrested. He was not in jail. With the fellow klansmen. Would be critical. He was the only eyewitness to the tragedy. So, he made a number of demands. He wanted his exwife and relocated to another states. He wanted a new identity. He wanted a lifetime career in law enforcement. One of the klansmen died of a heart attack before going to. Rial the other two were found not guilty by local alabama courts. Were foundthey guilty of violating civil rights. In each of those trials, he was the star witness. He was awarded for his testimony. Jaeger hoover said he was one of the great americans alive. The rowe would be relocated to san diego, california where he would become a deputy u. S. Marshal. You would think this would be a happy moment. , but he change his name could not change his character. Death of viola liuzzo was devastating for her family. The family literally fell apart. The children left school. For those with dependence on he is still living in alabama to this day. His time as a deputy u. S. Marshal was short. But theynge his name, could not change his character. He got involved in a lot of fights. He enjoyed stopping Police Officers and pulling his gun on them. Office the u. S. Marshals and he was rowe, fired. He wandered around the country work andvate detective he built up tremendous, and i think, incorrect animosity to the justice department, blaming them for what had happened to him. In truth, the fbi have been pretty good to him, and had recognized had rescued him from his ordinary life as a machinist and given him this fabulous career. Finally he went public. He appeared before the church 19 75. Ee in the Church Committee was investigating the excesses of the fbi and cia in the 1960s and 1970s. Rowe told his story, about the attack on the freedom writers new he how the bureau was coming and had done nothing. He talked about getting information from the klan. Was sleeping with klan wives. 40 or 50. Slept with a number of klan wives in. Irmingham got very upset one went to the press and said my daughter is asking me, did you sleep with tommy rowe. I didnt. And i talked to my friends and they say they didnt, so i dont know what hes talking about. Owe became a celebrity by the way, he wore a good identity. Sguise his he became famous. He was offered a contract. His memo was bought by columbia actures which was turned into movie. Andas on the today show pretty much made the circuit. To learn ofas on his activities as an fbi informant. They thought he had been a hero. He had come out of hiding as an , but now, testified they learned he was involved in the attack on the freedom riders, and they came to believe that rowe had fired the shot that killed their mother. So, they launched a wrongful death lawsuit against the fbi. Im not good to tell you how it turned out because i dont want to spoil your reading pleasure, hopefully. Raises extremece important questions. As i was riding on the book, the tragedy of 9 11 occurred and the present began to speak of the need for more human intelligence. It seemed to me that using informants was a very dangerous as this. As i indicated, in order to , hisct their cover experience showed that there was an accessory to these various crimes. It seems to me that if we try to , we can achieve the same kinds of results. That is the same kind of violence we were supposed to prevent. This is very important. This will become part of the warte on how to fight the against terrorism. Thank you and im happy to take questions. Yes . Did the fbi informants prevent any Violent Crimes by this method . Mr. May yes, and to be fair to on onee did at least occasion. He learned of an assassination attempt by a reverend who was the Martin Luther king of birmingham. He passed this on to the fbi because he was one of the men selected to assassinate dr. Shuttlesworth. The bureau paused. They were always afraid of doing something that would reveal rowe s identity, but a mans life was at stake. They decided they had to do something. Going toed him against a restaurant where the assassination was good to take place. Shuttlesworth was very grateful. Occasionally the fbi would prevent violence. We prevented violence from occurring. Historians, journalists interested in the subject cannot access to informant files at the fbi. They are exempt from the freedom of information act. The fbi guards those records. Was fortunate the rowey received to received three rowe informant files and the lawyer was kind enough to give me access to those records. I can tell you one case where rowe prevented violence, but i cant speak about the thousands of others. Is rowes still alive . Did you have contact with him . Died in 1998. He spent his last years in savannah, georgia. Said he died of natural causes. One of his children from an early marriage said that she thought the story she told me was so incredible he had been working as a private detective. And through some indication that a savannah politician had been involved in the murder. I tried to trace this down. You wont find the story in the book. My editor said, you cant prove it, so you better not put it in the book. He looked into the story and is still looking into it. Probablyusion is rowe died of a heart attack, but there are things he discovered. The autopsy report is missing. It should still exist. Died, at that rowe showed up atice his house, more than would be there in the case of a normal fatality. He thinks that rowe may have been involved in something. Just about everybody did this in town. Thomas neil moore, he was this was the first name of his favorite fbi handler who lives in a suburb of philadelphia. He became a kind of local character. Yes . Did you have any contact with on who moved tos alabama and what prompted him to go there . Wasmay well, her son tom probably the closest of her children, the closest to her mother than anyone else and have become very emotionally troubled after the death. Couldnt contact him. I couldnt find him. Im not sure the family knows precisely where he is today. I did talk to one of her other sons. The son joined the michigan militia in the 1980s. He gave a very frank and candid interview. Sure, didnce, im not this man do a lot more good than harm . Sure myself. Not i should really take a position, i think on this. I would have to conclude that he probably did more harm than good. The reverend shuttlesworth might disagree with me. Say, theinly, as i it does was so not seem to of been worth the trouble he caused. And in fact rowe himself said in his later years it was probably unnecessary to infiltrate the clan. He said, there are probably a dozen people who were the most dangerous, and if the fbi had kept them under surveillance, so much could have been prevented and it wasnt really necessary to infiltrate the clan. Klan. We have a perception of what the like, and this group i studied was like a combination of the keystone cops and the manson family. They were capable of all sorts of things, but some of them were vicious killers. It does not seem like the fbi has much of a history until today. I think the historian has not got to look at the record. After viola liuzzo was killed, the ones who searched for the killers these were firstrate people. Racist like jager hoover was. They are serious investigators. J edgar hoover was. We have to be fair. I think the higher up one went in the bureau, you found the especiallys problems in hoover himself. You called hoover racist. Did your research reveal, can you talk about what your research may have revealed in terms of the relationship between lbj and hoover . Were they using each other for different purposes . Wonderfulhats a question. Resource. W a rich he had machinery and telephones all over the place. You really hear himself expressing himself very frankly. Was lbjthat not only taping hoover, he was taping lbj. They had an interesting relationship. They had known each other for a long time. Johnson first went to washington in 1949. Hoover himself was a young director of the fbi. For a time, i think they lived across the street from one another. That hooverognized was a man you could not cross. I suppose on one hand you would love to have gotten rid of hoover was the longestserving director of the fbi in history, probably one of the longest buting federal bureaucrats, you couldnt. Johnson couldnt. Kennedy had thought of doing that, but he knew that hoover had so much stuff in his file president johnson. Some of hoover of us fifth most Sensitive Files burned by his private secretary after his death. I think that they did use one another. Certainly, hoover wanted johnson to protect him him his critics, to allow him, as johnson did, to , and at there grow same time, johnson used to over, knowing he was at least in his 60s, one of the most respected men in the, wolf. Its only later we have revelations about what that was about. Every boy growing up at one time at the time that tommy roe became an informant, became anrowe informant, one of the most popular movies was about the fbi with james stewart. Do have the feeling that rowe needed to be rescued from himself . It seems the fbi created more of it sounds likese he might have been very powerhungry. The fbi is feeding his ego. The fbis did feed his ego and they wanted him to rise up within the clan. The klan. Yet they recognize he could be someone difficult to troll. Importantme such an informant and his contact agents would retire from the bureau and the replacements would be selected. Recognize that their own careers as fbi agents depended on their ability to cultivate informants. You have someone retiring, selecting his successor and the successor saying, i sure hope you are going to like me. I think youll like me. We had coffee. I think we will get along fine. Its a fascinating relationship. Its one of the most interesting things in the book. In some cases, theres a close relationship. He was broken up. He was falling apart. They say, tommy, you got to stay. You are doing a great job for the country. I am not sure rowe was entirely serious about leaving the informants role because it was so much fun. The informant role because it was so much fun. Yes . Outyou comment after of the fbi undercover activities compared to other spy organizations . Mr. May a wonderful question which i wish i could answer your a indicated earlier the are offlimits to historians. They are exempt from the freedom of information act. Historians cannot get their hands on informant files. I was lucky that there was a wrongful death lawsuit and the fbi had to give their files to uzzo family attorney who gave me access to them. We have the cia or other International Intelligence services we have to pick these people. They have a certain strength and. Ower you have to pick someone a little on the odd side, as rowe double life. A some people, those who are drawn to the world of International Intelligence, would love that excitement of pretending to be something they are not. I wish i have the records to answer the question had the court i wish i had the records to answer that question adequately. Yes. Said that if they had kept track of 12 people within the klan they would not have had informants. But im trying to think how they would have known who those 12 people were without the informants. This, withoing with terrorism, people are saying we dont need informants, some people are saying we do need informants and they say if we can just track down x number of people that would give us insight. Could you answer the question and take it to be terrorist mr. May yes, yes. In one of the reviews of my book , it was opposed to all informants. It seemed to me it was more dangerous to recruit from the the klan or any other terrorist group. The klansmen immediately become in fact,s and rowe, was challenged several times, accused of being an fbi informant and was either to fight or talk his way out of it. Klancase of the clan was easier. It wascase of the klan, obvious. There was one man, robert chambliss, who was eventually convicted of being the main bomber. Everybody knew. Dynamite bob. That was his nickname. He had been in birmingham for 20 years. In an out of jail. In times protected by paul connery who worked for the Birmingham Police for a time. You did not need to put somebody inside the klan. Your question more specifically, in the case of the Mississippi Burning case in 1964, the fbi was able to solve by identifying klansmen who could leave the fbi to the bodies. It seems to me that is an effective way to go about this. You turn to people who are already members of terrorist groups. Easy to do with members of the clan, but very, very difficult to do. These are obviously committed and they are quite willing to give their life for their cause. Yes . Evidence fromad this guy that bulk honor bull connor was operating with the reason was there not to use that evidence against him . They had no position regarding connor. Agents knew connor. South. D grown up in the some tended to be sympathetic to segregation and did not have any problem at all with connor. Cannot find evidence they probably had a lot in common. Tough law and order. Did i answer your question . Im not sure i did. Order men, real law and order men do not allow you can commit a crime for 15 people. Mr. May i know. Ok. Mr. May one more question . Warmer question . Mr. May yes, man. Being a than fascinating historical story, do you see any of this being relevant to the problems of today . I dont just mean the terrorist, but the far right militias . I think it does. Primarily in how you get information about these groups, as you develop informants to put them inside the klan, to try to turn people already inside . At least i hope the book does speak to some of these problems, but also its a terrific story. Im primarily a storyteller. I always wanted to write in a way that is accessible to readers. Theres no point to write for six or seven other scholars in the field. You have to have an audience. Thats what i try to do. [applause] history bookshelf features the best history writers of the past decade talking about their books. You can watch on American History tv on cspan3. Our look at san antonio continues as we hear from historian louis fisher