Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Presidency Woodrow Wilsons Legacy On Race 20240713

Ceo of the Wilson Center. I am a recovering politician, which is not a 12 step program, but i am absolutely delighted at the Wilson Center is hosting this event. I am looking for john milton hooper. Where is he . What are you doing in the back . For anyone who has not heard of john milton hooper, shame on you. He wrote an awardwinning biography of Woodrow Wilson, and he has been enormously hopeful to us over the years, appearing many times, but also helping us unpack some of the difficult issues around Woodrow Wilson. The subject of todays conversation. 1978, when the Wilson Center was 10 years old, we were charged by congress with creating a Hubert Humphrey fellowship in social and political thought. Good idea. The idea was that a quote, distinguished scholar, statesman, or cultural figure would deliver a lecture honoring humphreys legacy, which makes sense since he was a founding father of this place, as well as Vice President , senator, and dedicated public servant. And at times like this, when the mood in washington is so grim, he was always optimistic. Something i remember and cherish. Years, butus a few we are very proud today to host the Hubert H Humphrey memorial excerpt and have a pointed and incredibly distinguished scholar, dr. Jonathan holloway as our first humphrey fellow. Another very special guest this afternoon is Hubert Humphreys ward, who is here with her husband dennis, and who has built her impressive career working at the department of congress, several universities, and her own Government Relations firm. She is also writing a book called citizens sibling uncle hubert and her sister. I have my own back story about Hubert Humphrey. I have to tell this one. This was even before the Wilson Center existed. It was 1964. The year that Johnson Humphrey ticket won the presidency in a landslide. I had worked in washington that summer as a College Intern at what was called the Young Democrats of america. That fall, i was cohead of the Young Democrats at smith college. Uppityness,f our invited the democratic candidate for Vice President , senator Hubert Humphrey, to visit the smith cant the smith campus. And he did. And i have got proof. We were unable to enlarge this, but hey, you can all see it perfectly. Here it says Johnson Humphrey. Here he is. Like that. And little face there is not forest gump, it is someone who used to be called jenny likes. Janie lakes. So, after that amazing experience, i was invited to attend Johnson Humphrey inauguration, including the inaugural ball. Think about that, as a college kid. Which came just before my winter exams. I a fit of responsibility, turned down the invitation so that i could study more. I was sad to miss the festivities, but i did pretty well that semester, and it was a down payment on my political career a few decades later. So back to the humphrey lecture. , a few month ago, lonnie bunch who some of you know and all of you know of, who was the amazingly creative founder of the africanamerican museum just down the road and is the new secretary of the smithsonian institution, recommended the perfect person. I visited with him, and he said this is the person perfect person, dr. Jonathan holloway. Twoholloway spent nearly decades at yale and was dean of the college. He also served as the head of calhoun college, now renamed grace hopper college. Africana professor of american studies at yale. Joined northwestern as provost and professor of history and africanamerican studies three years ago. Ay the time since dr. Hollow agreed to join us today, he has been appointed president of rutgers university. You can applaud. [applause] a small college, about 20 miles down the road from princeton, where Woodrow Wilson spent the last 20 years of his academic career. Clearly this is a very high honor, and we all congratulate you. Ays acclaimed research on black intellectual history make same, as i said, the perfect person to address todays difficult subject, Woodrow Wilson and race. Over the decades the Wilson Center has not shied away from this topic, and we are well aware it continues to be controversial. But we will all learn something today. I know that i will, and i am really delighted that you have agreed to talk about Woodrow Wilson. Following dr. Holloways lecture, distinguished fellow blair ruble, who is right in the front row, will moderate a discussion with him. Blair ruble, previously our Vice President for programs, also founded and directed our institute for advanced russian studies. Blair now works on our sustainability project and is the author of a fantastic book, a seriously good book on the history of washington dc, entitled washington street, a biography. Please welcome markers president elect and our humphreys a lecture humphreys lecturer and follow, dr. Jonathan holloway. [applause] dr. Holloway thank you for that introduction. Thank you for finding your way here. I mean, this is not the simplest room to get into. I was given directions on three occasions and i was still sitting down like, which way am i going. Thank you all for coming here. Thank you president harman, your honor. Advanceu to blair in for asking very easy questions. Thank you to casey for guiding me here in so many ways. For those who got here earlier, please know i extend great thanks to the tech team. Had quite a journey for 45 minutes for this accompanying powerpoint deck. And i must say, thank you, i hope, to John Boozman Cooper John Milton Cooper for coming. This really makes no sense that i am up here and he is not. So, he really is the expert. I am something of opposer on this occasion of a poser on this occasion. I am honored to have been asked to be the 2020 humphrey fellow in social and clinical thought. Funny story about how i came to stand before you today. When i received the letter, i knew there would be some serious challenges about finding a time that would work, because microbial calendar is already a mess. Putting mydering name in the hat for the wreckers position you just heard about. I did not know how that would come became my life. And because i was asked to speak in february, a uniquely busy time for africanamerican historians. I was prepared to decline the invitation, in fact. In fact, always dumb suggested i should decline the invitation. Until i saw that lonnie bunch had nominative be. She is not here but i will say, well played. She is one of my longestserving mentors, dating back to my second year in graduate school. That was likely enough to make me determined to find a date that would work. Further cementing my need to be here is that northwestern invited lonnie to serve as our Commencement Speaker last year. She accepted the invitation and a few months later was appointed secretary of the smithsonian. We quietly scrambled to get a backup speaker in case lonnie withdrew. To her credit she gave an amazing commencement address. Gave the address for days after starting as secretary of these missoni and. The smithsonian. Sheead of saying hello, said the only reason i came here is because of you. Flattering, absolutely. Maybe something else, certainly. I already knew i owed her for many things. I have to say that when i saw on the letter that he invited me, and that he started with his reading with what i just told you, i felt a little at the godfather making clear that one day, who knows when, i would be asked a favor. And here i am. The title of this talk as you see is history written and lighting, racial memories and the making of a nation. The main title of the talk is symbolic of what was functional. The symbolic aspect is a reference to a quote described it to wilson about his opinion of dw griffiths controversial 1915 film, the birth of a nation. The functional aspect of the title is a reference to the method of his talk itself. I was asked to speak about wilson and race. I took this to be an intentionally brought invitation that i could shape in any number of ways. Taking the invitation to heart, ofecided to offer a sweep the 20th century of the United States through a series of lightning strikes, as it were. A quick investigation revealed much larger political, culture that collectively tell us who we are as a people. This talk is certainly about wilson, but it more accurately about wilsons legacy as seen through a racial lens. It explores the way in which wilsons racial possibility shaped discourses, whose impact could be felt across the 20th century and continues to reverberate into the 21st. I will be limiting these letting strikes to a geography that runs along i95 and is about 3. 5 hours from beginning to end. Not my talk, just a geography. The distance between princeton, new jersey and washington dc. We start in princeton in the early 1900s, moved to washington for a bit, before returning to a contemporary princeton, and once more to d. C. For a framing consideration. Writing, princeton, safe spaces into history. Aiden ilson was born was born in virginia. He studied law at the university of virginia before switching to palooka science at johns hopkins. He taught before returning to princeton in 1890. 12 years later the Princeton Trustees appointed him president. A position he held until 1910. Wilsons record as princetons president is a precursor of sorts to his time in the white house. Wilson came into office as a reformer. He was determined to expand the size of the faculty, establish a graduate school, and reorganize the undergraduate experience while breaking up the universitys clubs because their leaders of ran counter to his pursuit of discipline. On these measures, his record is mixed. He remade the curriculum, creating a much richer economic environment and the process. He successfully grew the faculty and established models that remain in place today. Ever, the graduate School College was built while he was president , but its shaping contours were not what he intended. His efforts to reorganize housing to remake the eating club system, something any successful princeton president have also failed to do. They are too powerful to outmaneuver. Taking everything into consideration, wilson is appropriately hailed as one of the most important figures in princetons history. He accelerated the schools pace as it moved towards academic excellence, and at least signaled an intention to make the university a place of regressive progressive reform. There is little debating visa, schmitz and their importance. Debating their theres little ambiguity about wilsons views on blacks on campus. Pardon me, what . No. Yes. [inaudible] should have i warned you i use black slides. Where were we. There is little ambiguity concerning wilsons view on blacks on campus. In a letter to john rogers, the assistant secretary of the university, wilson wrote, the whole temporary and tradition of the place is such that no need is ever applied for admissions, and seems unlikely the question will ever seem practical reform. Five years leader wilson translated his philosophy into a more practical form when he responded directly to macarthur sullivan, an africanamerican applicant. It is altogether inadvisable for a colored man to enter princeton. Attempt intent on splitting hairs might say wilson was not denying blacks into princeton, not like what we would see in the height of the Civil Rights Movement when he denied entrance to the mercy of alabama. Wilsons performances in these ao quotes wewre a were commitment to something more insidious. We have wilson quietly rewriting princetons history and in the second, we find him ensuring princeton would remain a safe space for white students because of his own act of erasure. Rewriting history. Wilson had been part of princetons dna since his undergraduate years. While policy was deeply involved in student organizations like the debating society, football, and baseball, most critical is the fact he was managing editor of the student newspaper. Put another way, he knew princetons social fabric and was aware of the topics of the day. His engagement with the school continued when he returned to the campus in 1890 to teach courses in clinical economy. Political economy. It strains the imagination to think wilson did not know about Abraham Parker denny, james monroe bulger, and Irvin Williams Langston Brown street, all africanamerican students who received masters degrees at the Princeton Theological Seminary soon after he joined the faculty. If you read back further, you see wilsons willful blindness extended to his undergraduate years, since james mccosh, princetons president , welcomed the occasional black student into his philosophy lectures in the 1870s. Then alumni wrote letters of protest and five students declared they would withdraw unless he removed a black student from the lecture. He refused to budge and the students withdrew. Four eventually returned. Wilson was a sophomore at princeton during this. A black presence at princeton was not unknown to him. It is clear that wilson was committed to a vision of princeton that wrote lack students out of its history. A princeton archivist said it best. Quote, the act of remembering and forgetting princetons africanamerican alumni had consequences, as generations of prince tony and came to see themselves as generations of princetonians came to see them wilsons princeton that came to predominate not only in memory, but in practice. What was motivating wilson to tell a story wilson was not the kind of racist to us about violence as a way of controlling resumed black impulses. His racism was more genteel and reflected his sensibility not advisable to bring the races together because it would be unfair to blacks, as they would not be able to keep up with a new, more rigorous princeton he was creating. Even placing that belief to the side, wilson appeared intent to build a princeton that was more come to bow to the increasing number of southern white students who were returning to princeton after the madness of the war of northern aggression, and the racial expand mentation. Although southern whites were more familiar with africanamericans than northern, they were unprepared to accept them in social educational circles. Him tos paternalism led believe blacks could not keep up, another reading suggests they were a threat to him. Keeping princeton white meant it would remain a safe space for students who held tightly to their presumptions that what was a normative was removed instead of an expression of a natural hierarchy. Washington, d. C. Ideology, policy, and absolution. In order to run for the governorship of new jersey. He was elected that fall, carried forth on electorate who supported his antitrust and anticorruption ideas. Wilson was put into power by political machinery that believed it could control him. Within months of being put in office he forged his own path with reforms that hurt the democratic palooka machine. Political leaders took note and in short order, wilson was being considered as a potential candidate for the u. S. President. Wilson of course won the 1912 election, carried into office by those who supported his new freedom domestic agenda. His agenda was an expansion of his reformist ideology that earned him the Governors Office two years earlier. A commitment to breakup trust, perfect reform the banking system, and conserve National Natural resources. There is nothing about no viable candidate could have that as an agenda. But wilson pledged his willingness and desire to deal with blacks fairly and justly. Hate specifically he vowed t he would be a president of the whole nation. Pulled a bishop he said africanamericans could call on him for absolute fairness. My earnest wish is to see justice done to them in every manner. My sympathy with them is longstanding. These promises earned wilson an endorsement he needed from these black leaders as well as prominent figures. To be aeved wilson scholar of fairness who would not seek further means of jim crow insult. Like theblack leaders new jersey machine before them, soon understood wilsons promises would either not be kept or would be interpreted in a way substantially different than what they thought. To these figures, wilsons new freedom agenda felt much like an older agenda keeping blacks in their social and political place. In retrospect, the indication that wilson would not make new reforms for africanamericans was there all along. His promise to the bishop was a case in point. When wilson said my wishes to see justice done in every matter and not merely grudging justice, it became evidence that wilson was true to his word. He spoke of fairness and a sympathy that emerge from familiarity, but fairness on whose grounds, and what was the nature of his racial familiarity. Answers to these questions are found in wilsons background. The administration he formed as president , and a broad view dissensions between the races he had already expressed at princeton. Wilson was the first southerner elected president since the civil war. While geography is not destiny, it informs a worldview. Wilson grew up in georgia and was involved in a system resisting the northern occupation of the south. It viewed reconstruction as a radical overstepping of federal authority, and was determined to restore southern racial localss to wilson meant customs and practices should be preserved to maintain the status quo. Northern cap or baggers carpetbaggers that allowed black men the right to vote were to be resisted at every turn. Fairness for southerners like wilson was not the kind of fairness black leaders sought. On the issue of familiarity, wilson was like any other white southerner. Around black folk who interacted with him on a daily basis. But they were not peertopeer. He grew up in an environment with black servants. They were in a way familiar to him, but this familiarity was articulated through a racial hierarchy that insisted blacks belonged on a lower rung of societys letter. Ladder. Wilson was known for telling racially offensive jokes, a practice he carried into the cabinet. While at the crimson faculty, wilson described formally enslaved people as a host of dusty children put out of school. They were unschooled in selfcontrol and excited by a freedom they did not understand. Wilson brought these ideologies with him to washington. When he began to build his cabinet, he started to place southern politicians in key positions. He tapped people who play pivotal roles in the race riot of 1898, who believed that during reconstruction, quote, all the whites and are part of the country lived under a black and fearful cloud. We have to fight for the sunshine or liberty. He put people in office who declared that quote, the Democratic Party was the only palooka party that could be eounted on to keep the negro ranks,t only of its own but out of governmental affairs. And he put people in office who served in the ku klux klan. Wilson underscored his philosophies and supported the secretarys efforts to shape departments in the way they saw fit. On the surface this was an exceptional case of wilson was no innocent. He could have predicted his secretaries would quickly do what they too deemed fair antipathetic. They began to segregate the federal workforce. These changes were dictated at the local levels. There was no single type of discriminatory behavior. They also happen without a paper trail. Most likely because he secretaries felt there was no need to commit to paper that which was in the natural order of things. Changes range from a dramatic loss of Job Opportunities for blacks, to physical we organization of work space. Eric, who wrote the definitive history of this, described the ways in which black opportunities changed once wilsons regime took hold. He pointed out that barriers in conveniences and indignities propped up narrative promise of employment for all africanamericans. When comparing the four years of the Taft Administration that proceeded wilson and the first four years of wilson, the differences are stark. In the analysis, two thirds of black people in tafts years were promoted. Promotions dropped radically when wilson took office and browse policed and were outpaced by demotions, which more than tripled. Adding was the cruel and haphazard nature of the it was not unusual in the first year for workers to leave the office on friday, only to rurn on monday with furniture dramatically rearranged, partitions erected, and whole rooms relocated. A historian offers a striking example. Black womene 300 employees in the bureau of printing and engraving returned from a week in november defined half of the womens dressing rooms converted into a colored only dining room. Integrated sources suggest this implementation of jim crow came specifically at her request, at her behest. Regardless of the policies, black women who used the dining hall for years found the lunch table now opened out into commodes. Hundreds of black women were forced to eat in a chorus of flushing toilets and a dining room that now only accommodated 40. If a loss of opportunities and changes to the Physical Plant were not enough, the commitment to segregate the workforce involved acts of cultural pettiness. In the apartment of treasury, which had the letter summer a black civil servants, the secretary already order the separation of the races when he took things a step further. He ordered the black employees to not be considered for promotions, and required new forms of address for some department workers. Letters Going Forward to black workers were not to receive the standard address of sir or madam, nor to be signed, respectfully yours. His determination to making change in the department of treasury, changing the way people worked, layout of the floor, the way people were addressed, was a reflection of deep commitment to make sure africanamericans stayed in their place. Wilson took no responsibility for the departments actions. It was a local matter. Wrote, wilson quote, sincerely believed this to be in blacks interest. Wilsons faith reaches back to his upbringing. s best, one of wilson friends, published a historical romance of the ku klux klan. This glorification of the klan and repudiation a black citizenship became the basis for the 15 film directlyto wilson saying quote, the establishment of negroe men over white women has in the minds of many thoughtful men and women long been a series against the cleanness of our social life. The same sentiment is found throughout his book and is one of the narrative plot lines in griffiths film. Th the birth of a nation, the climatic scenes a newly freed man. A white woman who only avoids being raped by leaping off a cliff. She retaliates by lynching a man in organizing the kennedlan. From a technical standpoint, the film was unlike anything that had been on screen before. Due in part to its technological wizardry, the film was a smash. Earning over 10 million in its first release. In some markets, they were able to charge moviegoers an unheard of 2. 00 to enter. The film special effects were not the only reason for the film success. Even though it went to Great Lengths to mythologize the kans soundings klans founded. For many of its viewers, the film was an affirmation of what they already knew. Civilized andbe therefore incapable of responsibilities of citizenship and black men could not control their sexual desires. Im going to share clip. Cross your fingers that this works. Share clip that captures a lot of the things i just mentioned. [video clip] dr. Holloway part of the film the fact that to it received Woodrow Wilsons enthusiastic endorsement. After a private screening in the white house, the first film shown in that building, wilson to as alleged to have declared it was written the title of my talk. Universally not admired. It earned the ire of the n aacp. And they referred to it as three miles of filth. Grave injustice, pernicious morally, a fascination of a race and sowing the seeds of strife. The tone of the pamphlet. I quote from most of it i testify that i consider the nation improper and immoral and unjust for the colored people of the nation. Forplay would be unfit public production since there is a suggestiveness about it of the kind which physicians know inc ites to crime with certain types of mines. The attack upon the negro is entirely unnecessary. In my judgment it is a deliberate attempt to humiliate 10 million american citizens and for trade them is nothing but and portray them as nothing but beasts. The naacps efforts caught the white house. Through his personal secretary, wilson tried to distance himself from the film. He agreed to the screening as a favor of an old friend the disagreed with the films argument in favor of racial violence. Know historians do not whether wilson said the films history was enlightening we do not take seriously his claims about the character of the film. Although wilson was opposed to lynching, he was approved of other things that drove the narrative. In a letter to wilson secretary, the real purpose of my phone was to revolutionize northern sentiments by a presentation of history that would transform every woman into a goo every man into a good democrat. Later dixon would write to wilson saying this play is transforming this entire population to sympathetic southern voters. There will never be an issue with your segregation policy. Are instructed to understand the real connection between the political on the cultural. For him, there was no mistaking the fact that the two ways of navigating the world informed one another. Anviewed his book as part of. Investment in stoking political change. Wilson was following a familiar script. Forand cutting criticism encouraging segregation in the Civil Service system and he pointed to the department heads. Wilson didnt literally segregate the federal government, nor did he endorse the film. However, determining whether wilson was the architect is a case of splitting hairs. There is no mistaking the fact that wilson had a clear sense of the racial which balacks were in the service of whites and that jim crow brought the rational order that was critical to wilsons ambitions for progressive reform. There is no mistaking the fact the idea that fueled the segregation of the federal ideas. Ce were that had consequences. Africanamerican lost their jobs because of wilsons worldview. Furthermore, the racial hire became normalized. One of the conclusions of a 1948 report on the persistence of segregation in washington made the point clear. Quoting. Colored people of washington have never recovered from the blow that start them in the time of Woodrow Wilson. The example has been one of exclusion and segregation in menial jobs. The material consequences of his more quickly. T fom the success of the film was directly tied to the resurgence of the ku klux klan in the late 1920s. A quick interlude. This is gordon parks very famous photograph, American Gothic featuring a scrub woman ella watson. Blacks placeof a with the american flags tells a larger and deeper story about blacks place in society. Princeton. Remembering history and community. The history and the community. It plays better on the page. Although, wilson explored the term of running for a third term, democrats advised against his seeking the nomination. He moved out of the white house in 1921. His health have been compromised for years and he failed to improve when he left office. He died in february 1924. Wilsons legacy lived on and remains vexing today. All president s are measured by the distance between the rhetoric and their policies. Observes,orian wilson voiced a vision of american possibility much more expansive than the meannesss he helped put into practice. The cap because wilson guided the country during the first rhetoric took on greater import and resonated for far more lovely than his predecessors did. While the promise of his vision was not met by sustained aality, wilsonss call for universal the mission of right universal division of white was a promise with pursuing. In the fall of 2015, 100 years after wilson screened the birth students expressed their anger over the distance between wilsons rhetoric and the fact that the university seemed unconcerned that the southern aspect of wilsons legacy and the lack of concern was manifested in the failure to recruit and support dunes and faculty from underrepresented minority groups. Support students and faculty from underrepresented minority groups. Clear overis a supplication, the trustees recognized there needed to be a much more robust accounting of wilsons complex legacies and and created the Wilson Legacy review committee. Considering how the university should assess wilson with his, shrink after he left princeton and the ways in which his commitment to a racial hierarchy was out of line with the universitys modern vision. The center of the debate was that fact that wilsons name adorned places of prestige throughout the campus. The Woodrow Wilson school of public and international affairs, which are wilson college, the Woodrow Wilson award, the professorship of english, the Woodrow Wilson Scholars Program and so on. In each instance, deploying wilsons name was a mark of high a steam. Even though some students declared that princeton had not changed since wilsons era, the fact of the matter is the university had changed. If belatedly in measurable ways. The measurement was mostly related in terms of demographic change over time. Andn, racial, sexual, religious minorities, international students, all were now regular members of the community. However, the vestiges of earlier ideology lingers. It wasnt just about Woodrow Wilson. His name was the most easily attach to the set of values that the university no longer it might. The Legacy Review Committee and knowledge this and made it clear it was committed to a university that was welcoming and inclusive. Committee recommended that wilsons name remain attached to the various buildings and awards, it declared the princeton was obliged to be a more on the steward of wilsons legacies. Understandably, when talking about the princeton community, the report focused upon the student and faculty expenses. It also pointed to alumni and staff. This last group, merited the least amount of attention. Compared to the 17 time it referenced alumni. Further when talking about staff at the university, the report alluded to the contributions of administrative staff. Beingagine the group apprised of in the strait of assistance and Research Technicians and advisers. Mentioned for the staff who attended the lawns and cook the meals and fix the plumbing. The racialnot have demographics, it is a safe bet that africanamericans are at minimum disproportionatelly represented in that group. Entered the artist mario moore decided to paint 10 bluecollar princeton workers, a recognition of his own fathers efforts to support the family when he was growing up in detroit. All of moores subjects are black. The historic invisibility of black labor on college moores work was a declaration that princeton him to wrestle with the complexities of its past, it would do well to have an honest reckoning of the honest work that kept the university running. This is not a princeton image but a yale image. Can we dim the lights a little bit for the screen . This was found in archives at yale by the dean o f art. It is just titled garden party. In the middle of the image, you find a black bartender. This is yale in the 1950s. There are women, but they are all attached to the men. And literally nobody paying attention to the bartender. It is a moment in time. This is more metaphorical than factual. You see all this whiteness in the garden and a sole black figure invisible until someone needs a drink. Moores work is a declaration princeton would do well to have an honest recognition of the work that built the university. This is work that prison and when not have recognized at princeton or in the white house. One of the difficult truths is that his decision shaped the world around him but he never saw and did not deign to imagine. Mooresges from mario series. I will give princeton credit. Of the ten paintings, they bought three or four of them. It is a beautiful painting. He actually as the people he painted to tell him what they want, where they wanted to be depicted. Sometimes it was not of labor. Clyde sky high. Garfield. Several lifetimes. These are the titles that moore gave to each of the paintings. Part four. Washington, d. C. , the intimacy te legacies. The last observation, the distance between wilsons lived experiment on the way he affected the world around him, leads me to my most personal thoughts. Woodrow wilson was president of the United States from 1913 to 1921. For reasons i neither bother and he left a mark on the nation and the world. Africanamericans assessment of wilsons legacy is more compensated. His commitment to racial erasure at princeton contributed to a logic of the school that set preserved. Haity to be means that generation of black workers encountered new obstacles to advance professionally, to provide for their families and pass on generational growth. I stand before you as someone who has benefited from the accumulation of social status because of my parents education and work as well as their parents education and work. That there is a caveat, and it is embodied in the work history of my paternal grandfather john halloween. Holloway. I never had the pleasure of meeting him but i know his story will. He entered Howard University school of law in the late 1920s. In his second year, the School Change the degree requirements and order to secure accreditation. His classmate encouraged them to join in a claim to be made whole, given that the School Changes terms without notice. With two young trojan at home and no guarantees of the two young would children at home and no guarantees the plaintiffs would win, he took a job working in the cafeteria. He became the captain of waiters in the Senate Dining room. This was a job with security, a rarity in black america what it was a job he found humiliating because his education suggested different future. He dedicated himself to his work and build relationships with congressman. Even secured his coveted appointment to west point for his son, my father, through his political connections. To my grandfathers dismay, his path, one his own that took him into the air force office of candidate school four years later. A few years before i was born John Holloway was stricken with cancer. In 1965, he had no fight left in him and he passed away. His death affected the family but it also move leading figures to write letters. One of them kept in the family as a complicated treasure of some sort was a letter from Vice President of the United States Hubert Humphrey. On august 11, 1965, Vice President humphrey wrote the following to my grandmother. I was did we send to hear of the death of their husband john. Please let me extend to you my heartfelt 60s. My heartfelt wa y sympathies. He was known and loved by all in the senate. We all have lost a wonderful friend and one who is truly a credit to his race. He will be missed by all of us. Leaving air force in 1974, my father moved into the government as a chief of staff to the representative. He also served as a delegate to the Democratic Party in maryland. In other words, he is woven into the federal Democratic Party machine. His faith was challenged from time to time. On those occasions, humphreys letter came up as an example of the partys shortsightedness and its failure to recognize blacks. When mt father would talk about angerter, his would be evident. A credit to his race . One day, my father decided to confront humphrey. Humphrey had no recollection of the letter. But he di remember my grandfather and fondlyd so. Most likely someone else wrote the note of condolence. And posted the letter. Reasonable enough. If the ideas were not humphreys they were the ideas of those in his orbit. Placing my father a credit to his race, was meant as a compliment but it was an who theious about london what place. That is about the who along in what place. They didut policies not fueled the rearticulation of cultural views and the process continues. A nation is shaped by this kind of process. It is one of cultural visions tied to expressions of power and policy. To see the world in a particular way. When we think about what wilson we can say many things, so much is worthy of remembering. When we assess wilson to racial memory, however, we discovered his commitment to not see had consequences that extended well beyond his lifetime. Views didt wilsons not personally derail my grandfathers professional aspirations but the logic informing the president s worldview fit neatly in a committing to maintain social and political order in which people could be a credit to the race while their humanity was stripped away. Thank you. [applause] im there. We have a few minutes. 15 going to say we have minutes. Im going to start the conversation, but then we tried to open it up. Get some questions and comments from the floor. Withhan, i want to end up your observation about who a ing in what belongs what place. And the impact wilson had not on White America but on africanamerican america. And this was a time when a generation you have written about, rather remarkable oferation, and every aspect American Life emerged from the africanamerican community. And sometimes it is referred to as the negro generation. It also is a generation was born more or less in the 1890s. They were comingofage directly asing wilsons tenure president. People like ralph langston hurston. Ocke, logan, it really turned out to be a very significant generation of people. And part of what was driving them was clearly the desire to prove that they deserved to be in a certain place. Im wondering if you could say a few words about them and about theremarkable response to cultural environment youre describing as a way of maybe rounding out the picture little bit. Dr. Holloway 15 minutes, huh . I wrote a book on the topic literally. Its interesting. You mentioned six names. This is really important related to the talk. Them, were based in washington, d. C. And this is part of the tragedy, the, the frustration, whatever word you want to use of wilsonlegacy in d. C. There was already a really not fullyibrant, fully independent black community but a very vibrant black community. The children of the people you mention went to dumbarton high school, which got decimated by thboard v. Board of education. One of those small ironies but black washington was a really remarkable place. After newibrant scene york city and the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s. T,district, seventh and Howard University, etc. But, black washington. That is one of the reasons why s behavior with the administrator was so unsettling in d. C. Because he was a place, far from perfect, but he was a place where blacks had potential. Now, within black washington was all kinds of inter racial tensions that run along ran along class lines. But there was a sense of possibility in black washington you did not see in other places. So, when this re segregation order came in, that was a shock to a system. We are not talking about thousands of people. Of the symbolic importance washington in general is just, you know, is massive. Within black washington, not just in wilsons time but s, what became known as the black cabinet, to elevate a handful overly prominent people like ralph b unch, they became national figureheads a possibility. So, when we talk about the challenge of the legacy of segregation order, we are talking about more than anything else, the symbolic dmagamage that actually close ds a possibilities. For other generations who saw black washington real opportunity. Why dont we opened it up because time is limited. Im going to try to take a couple of questions and then we will come up to the floor. And we do have microphones. We will come down here to John Milton Cooper first. If youre thinking of questions, please let me know. Would like to add my congratulations for you become in the present along route one in central new jersey. I could, you know, friends, romans and countrymen, lend my o eme your ears. That is the famous line of one of the greatest con jobs in all of literature, of course. I think wilson, i have no defense whatever for the segregation policy, none at all. If you wanted something of an fun nation and this is something iat might, my dear friend and used to talk about he said he could understand why wilson would bow to this kind of thing, that these southern cabinet secretaries wanted to institute. He said, he had a southern base. He was a democrat with a southern base. Whats more, the great migration was just, just barely beginning. Yetthere was no africanamerican Political Base in the north or very little. So, that is just a plain political arithmetic involved. Wilson, wilson as a southerner, that is a very competent in question. He was an accidental version. Virginia. His parents had moved there from ohio. He had no american born grand parents. He grew up within this presbyterian world, which to some extent insulated him from the surrounding environment. And what i found very, very puzzling and frustrating was in trying to get into his early life and the sources on it are not as good as they are, for example, for theodore roosevelt. Africanamericans are invisible. And that awful scene from birth of a nation, wilson was a in Columbia South carolina, at that time. Two of his early biographers, who bless their hard work neverlists, baker, interviewed any of the black severance from there. Servants from there. The only one who did was William Allen white. I never found any notes. Extremely frustrated to me. Forgive me, one thing he did not mention about the princeton thing was his inauguration as president in 1902. Who did he say he gave the best speech at that inauguration . Dr. Holloway i confess i do not know. Booker t. Washington. Some of his southern relatives were scandalous. If i knew he would be here, i would not have come. One of his daughter said, even better than your speech, father . The mas, thats the seminary. And the question is, what is the college, what is the seminary on that . The other thing, birth of a nation. No, he did not say that. A little taken aback when i saw history made by lightning. That was invented 20 years later. He never endorse the movie. To tryt to some length to find what the screen was like an interview the last surviving person whod been there. She said, the president seemed preoccupied and distracted and just left. He never endorsed it and later tried to on the grounds it would stir up too much. Hes complicated, and to me, i think wilson, the president he resembles most in this regard is jefferson. Awful record on race, and how do you balance it with all of the other great things . Dr. Holloway thank you for all of the. At. You are right about booker t. Washington. Merits mention. But washington himself was incredibly complicated, thinking of the black communitys reception. We could go on and on in these ways. I do take your point. I hadnt thought, he is very much like jefferson in that regard. The important thing in this is where i think where princeton got through to its 20152016 conversations is to talk about this. That is the important thing. The crime is not to talk about it and pretend that everything is fine. They did the right thing by keeping the wilson name, he is too important institutional he. Institutionally. In this day and age, to talk about was in without saying at minimum he was really complicated. He did some things we dont support nobody did some great things, too. If you cant say that, i think you have ethically failed. And universities are Getting Better at being mature about this. Yale had its problems. Universities, it cuts across the nation. But i think they are being forced to grow up. Thank you for your comments. Anne, and well go out further in the room. Right here . Dr. Holloway the benefits of the front row. Id like to make a comment first and then ask you a question. First of all, congratulations on an outstanding lecture and im so glad it is going to be published because we all need and want to have a copy of it to balance out Woodrow Wilsons career and everybody knowing what he has done to mystically and internationally. I want to make a quick comment stating, or reading rather, Hubert Humphreys letter to your grandmother saying that your grandfather was a credit to his race. Your grandfather worked in the Senate Dining room, my first comment is, carol king who you may know became the governor of the Virgin Islands used to work for uncle hubert. And augur hubert uncle hubert was known for integrating the Senate Dining room because when he brought carol down to have lunch with him they would not let him into the dining room. Thats an historical fact. But my question is, are you aware of Hubert Humphreys own track record going back to the 1948 Democratic Convention in philadelphia where he offered the minority plank to the Democratic Party, the civil rights plank which would have cost truman his election to the presidency and win struck when Strom Thurmond and others walked out. That same year, first of all the plague was adopted. , uncle hubertear went to the United States senate in 1949, and he introduce civil rights legislation every single 4, when he was34 one the floor leader of the Civil Rights Act and it got past. Got passed. I wasnt sure i understood your own feelings about humor Humphrey Hubert because i dont, his own education in Louisiana State neversity, where hes understood institutionalized racism really and segregation, colored his whole political career. Ownyou aware of his background on civil rights and basic human right . Dr. Holloway his background is amazing. Do not,part im sorry clearly enough. This is the part that had my father vexed. That someone with humphreys track record could write this, becomes a very personal note that is saying all these wonderful things inez goat then goes sideways very quickly with the phrasing that sounding different, ill semper fi things for the sake of it. Different coming from a white mouth the needed going into a black ear. So my father was perplexed by that distance. The humphrey that he understood is this what hes actually thinking . I related, humphrey said i do not even know. Elected official but as a provost i sign lots of things that i have not personally written. Im sure that is what happens. But it is the phenomenon that is at issue. It is not about your uncle. His track record is pretty darn impressive, especially given, in doing that in 1948, that was breaking ground. Thank you. Dr. Holloway thank you. Ok, the gentleman deck here. The gentleman back here. Stand up. We will get you a microphone. Thank you very much for the lecture. I enjoyed it. Two part question i have for you in regards to Woodrow Wilson. Onen being, did he leave any diaries about his experience in his youth and everything . A the other part is, we are talking about the time part, jim crow was going on when his president s in his presidency and before. Did he speak to that at all . How did he feel about the fact he was calling young black men yetight in world war i, and a spouse of these views and segregationist attitude . Dr. Holloway i can speak to the latter part more to the former. Im not a wilson scholar. I want to be clear about it. The president sending off people through war, he is a part of a long tradition. If he, i mean, throughout history poor people fight wars. And people in turns of a polity who were on the edge of the polity are the people who fight wars, who were actually on the front lines. Thats as true then as a din today as it is today. I did not know until six or seven days that people who were not citizens would sign up to serve as a fast track to gaining citizenship status. He is part of a longer tradition. Too simplistic for me to be outraged at wilson to send black troops out to die 20 he had done all this racial discriminatory action. When he had done all this racial discriminatory action. That is a different kind of issue. I think this is part of a tradition. Im assuming he left a tremendous amount of document, but probably silences in different areas but not the kind he is talking about. That is what i suspect. That is why it is a very frustrating thing. One of the interesting things of being an historian in the 20 century is compared to my colleagues in the 19th and 18th and 17th, we have so much information but of a certain type. On certain topics. In my field, working on africanamerican intellectual history, you run into and you mentioned it your commentary, absences that are huge and gaping absences and youre stuck because you do not know where to find these things. Now, what is interesting is that historians working in my area have had to start turning to different kinds of resources to try to understand the black story. One very quick example. 1970s, in the, wake of the Civil Rights Movement, curators were determined to tell the story of black women. After all, half of the residents of williamsburg were africanamerican or blacks. But there is no record. Well, there is a turn in a how historians in how historians, Museum Scholars started to analyze things. I mean modern historians. Using archaeology and anthropology merging together in new and interesting kinds of ways. As there are more people coming into the field who had studied, say, western africa and its cultural resonances, places that prior to the 1970s scholars theyht were well, looked at the architecture dig. Wait, that is the same pattern of socalled crash that you would see in a western african village. Erat is where the heal lives. Broken vials or different collections of bones or shells. What scholars began to realize is that the evidence of the black experience was all around them but they were not trained in how to see it. So, that is just an example. Williamsburg of has changed remarkably since then but this is one of historians rely on paper really face. In my case, and overabundance of paper. What do i stop listening to . The paper trails end, and then you have to go to a different place to pull it down. It is experiment to lead times and that is, to me, the fun part. Other questions or comments . Dr. Holloway there is someone over here. Im sursan irving. I was a student of johns and did all my work on a man called alls well garrison villard. I dont know if you are familiar with the book sinking in time. Dr. Holloway it sounds familiar. Were talking about the world he grew up up. It is not just when you grew up, it is when things became salient. When i would teach the concept of placement, it was a mixer of students at the kennedy school, i would ask them what their first former the political memory was. And, given my age, i could guarantee you they would say vietnam. I mean, this was in the 1980s. Political memory was the ministers wife expiring in 1954 Supreme Court decision. Do you think we have the same view a few but humphrey . Of Hubert Humphrey . They had met him as a Vice President defending vietnam. Old enough tot have been around in 1940. So8. I would suggest as an addendum to your thinking about the world that he grew up in, the in visibility of certain whole groups of people, that you think about some of these uses of history lessons that develop because i think it helps us a lot. It just makes us clear. Anyway, i recommend it. Theres one war where it wasnt only the people on the outer, world war ii, fought by people of all economic status. The gentleman right there. Just wanted to point out that one thing that resonated with me was the connection between your grandfathers response to that blacknd early 20 century responses to what was going on around them. I mean, maybe im reading this into it but i read your lingdfather as being, fee really indignant about what he saw in that letter. My recollection of early 20th century newspaper accounts where i have this recollection, early newspaper accounts of africanamericans around the country coming together for indignation meetings. Being indignant. Beinge concept of indignant about what is going on, what is happening to them, i found it very, made a great impression on me. I think that, given the fact, you say ideas have consequences. And the consequences these folks were seeing were not simply in day to day life, that they were seeing people being killed. It is a very violent era. He is not simply sitting in princeton thinking or not thinking or ignoring the consequences of violence and death. That affects other people and response to milder that is the indignation that the folks were getting together felt. 50 years later, your grandfather felt. I mean, the connection in your lecture resonated with me. Dr. Holloway thanks for sharing that. There is, we simple if i so much in this country and i have done it today in this lecture knowingly, just its the nature of the invitation to wilson and race. You can tell so many different kinds of stores. Reference early about race and class in washington, d. C. And interracial class tensions. Lots of different ways, my grandfather is a condition was not just that he was not in a career that he aspired to, that being a waiter was beneath him. And that was within a racial column of possibility. A lawyer being at the top and the waiter being not at the top. And so, the indignation its a very human kind of response. Codified in thinking along racial lines for reasons we all understand your ion not clot we dont talk about class in a mature way. We dont love complexity. Indignation feels better, i think. I believe you understand where im coming from. The last row . Then maybe one or two other questions. Thanks. Hi. Im a graduate of the Woodrow Wilson school at princeton and a former staff member at the Wilson Center. Done a lot of making about Woodrow Wilson over the years and i really appreciate your talk today. What really resonated with me was that this question of who you surround yourself with . And also bringing it up to the present. And so, sort of by way of a comment, all of us, i think in my current nonprofit we think about this in hiring. How flu and are they an understanding Racial Equity and class analysis. One of the Interview Questions we ask people is why are people poor . We do not work on poverty. But its important to us that people have an understanding of history and of sociology at least at a basic level and then we do do training and education as part of our work and we believe that makes us a better organization. Were surrounding us also people who will be challenging our own thinking. I just wanted to offer that is a challenge to all of us as we are think about this and the present and how do we take these lessons away from your lecture and apply them in work we are doing daily. Dr. Holloway thank you. Any other questions . A gentleman in the middle. My names solomon. I j ust want to share a quote that i want to see your response to in terms of how possibly we could somewhat suggest where wilsons legacy would be. Dr. King said, the measure of a man is not where stands in comfort and conveniences but where he stands and controversies and challenges. He said, that is the measure of a man. Based on that, how do we measure wilsons legacy . Dr. Holloway it is a great question but it invites a lot of glossing over in the answer. The answer is deeply complex. If youre looking at wilson as an international statesman, you measure him in a certain kind of white. In kind of way. Some could say incredible success and some could say incredible failure depending on your philosophy of the league of nations or things like that. From a domestic standpoint and lets face it, he had a lot on his mind, safe to say, on an international standpoint, a Global Crisis that had never existed before on that scale certainly. Is that enough to excuse them from the domestic front . For some, that is enough to say his legacy, we need to understand, standing in crisis on the international front. I mean, that is ok with me. Thats fine. But it also means if you accept that you are ignoring something else. For a lot of people was lifechanging it had great consequence. I am not prepared to give an answer that i think would be satisfactory about where does wilson stand, how do you measure wilson and the sense of crisis, because he was dealing with crises of all different types. One thing we didnt talk about is im sorry . Thingsall kinds of great but he also did a lot of things that were not so great. But he was a president. That is the nature of the presidency for anybody. But the race riots thats what across the country in 1919. Did he cause them . Were there other mitigating factors . Absolutely. Was he involved in that in some ideological way . Sure, he was. May be in washington, d. C. , there is a causation there because of the hysteria that was a part of a worldview that blacks cannot restrain themselves. But i just think the question, wilson is so complex. The questionseed near a down in terms of a smaller, what context are we going to assess him in order to give a short, you cannot give a short answer to it. Im sorry. I dont really believe in president s discussions in heros oes or villains. There are many people who are president if i were voting, i would never have voted, horrible. Their other president s i felt the opposite way. I dont want to signify them to a vote, but i think we need to be a tremendous amount of attentiveness to their complexity. Just as i was talking about princeton. The good thing is we are talking about these things that last. That we are talking about these things. Anyway. Final question. Hi. This is not really a question, just a comment. I appreciate your lecture. I learned a lot and i was fortunate enough last week to bunch being interviewed by rubenstein on slavery in the white house. A fascinating, fascinating topic. I just wanted to people people to be on the lookout, if you can get your hands on a copy of that because just like your comments tonight, there is just a lot to learn and a lot unfortunately we are finally talking about this topic. Dr. Holloway anytime you have a chance to hear loni bunch talk about anything. I would listen to him read the phone book. Think about. This is remarkable. We are offering a chance for me to opine for a little bit. In the summer between my second and third year of graduate school. I was working in the smithsonian castle. That is the official name, the castle. I know it is not the official name. But i was working with figures who were working on what is called the africanamerican institutional museum project. 1991 and this was the first moment of the smithsonians very intense effort to create a nationally same. In terms of within the smithsonian. And that is where i got to meet loni, the curate of the museum of American History. We spend time together. I was a little kid compared to them, sitting at their knee. What loni created in the National Museum of African American history and culture is an astonishing. Some people would say, people who are posted, who are a post, it should be in these museums but they had 80 years to do it and they didnt. Whats amazing, and you can see ,. E thirst for the narrative telling a more complex story becomes a pilgrimage for African Americans as well and a way that loni, who believed in this project, never anticipated. He tells Amazing Stories about how they are planning to he didnt want to have it ticketed. For safety. He said it would last for six months. That was the plan. Well do ticketing for six months. They are still ticketing three years later, because of demand. Theres something in that, in the telling of that story that speaks to a desire that i find deeply refreshing not because it is about the africanamerican experience but because it is about people seeking complexity and honesty about our american story. This is an amazing country. It is amazing that it has held together. Despite all of its complexities. We need to know about the complexities. Thank you. Thank you very much, jonathan. Im going to turn it over to jane. I want to observe that we ended up really in the sweet spot at the Wilson Center. Many of us thirst for the mature discussions. Let me add, i was speaking of the cosmos club six months ago and anne approached me and she said, whatever happened to the humphrey lecture at the Wilson Center . Whatever happened to the lecture at the Wilson Center just happened at the Wilson Center. And it absolutely in our sweet spot, telling, like stories, trying toing nuance, be not just nonpartisan which we try to be everyday. But free from spin. And this was the straight up story of Woodrow Wilson and race. And it was amplified a bit by an amazing scholar of Woodrow Wilson and an amazing audience. We always have the smartest audiences here. Dr. Holloway, good luck at rutgers. They are so lucky to have you. Thank you so much for coming. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] forhank you to blair moderating. I should have said that. From George Washington to george w. Bush, every sunday at 8 p. M. At midnight eastern we feature the presidency, our series exploring the presidencies the policies and legacies. 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Monday night on the communicators, Consumer Technology Association President gary shapiro talks about political ads on social media platforms. Hes interviewed by government reporter rebecca kern. I dont think it is a fair burden to put on a company like facebook or others. There should be a way of dealing with that that does not involve that is not for me to say. That is not for congress to make a decision. To make one respecting the First Amendment because it has not gotten a lot of respect lately in some of the traditional media saying that is unfair, you know what . Amendment protects everyone. We should be really careful. Because the First Amendment is being torn up on college campuses, torn up by traditional media and torn up by facebook. If the First Amendment is so central to who we are as a nation. I hate to see it eroded. Watch author ran zwigenberg talked about how people remember world war ii and examined the accounts from the survivors of hiroshima, nagasaki, and the holocaust. This interview was recorded at the annual American Historical Association meeting. Joining us from new york is ran zwigenberg a professor of asian and jewish and he isa professor of asian and jewish studies at penn state. The author of hiroshima and the origins of global memory culture. Thank you for joining us on cspans American History tv. Dr. Zwigenberg thank you for having me. You look at the two significant impacts upward or two, the holocaust and its