Going all yearround. Thank you for going deep into the december before the holidays. Its a pleasure to have you. If you are curious about our membership programs, feel free to talk to me or any of our volunteers. You can also pick up a copy of the magazine if you dont have it already and find us online at smithsonianassociates. Org. Just as a quick reminder, please take a moment to please silence any mobile devices or your cell phones, whatever you have with you. Always good to double or triple check, especially because we have cspan in the house tonight. Your ring tone will be saved in perpetuity. [laughter] thank you. Just an additional note. Generally we have exits in the back and one to your right. Today, please just use the right side door. You may have noticed we have a lot going on in the Ripley Center tonight and the backdoor is blocked. For your safety and others, use this door to your right as you exit. I think thats all the announcements i have for you, and again, thank you to cspan for being here today. Finally, let me tell you about our guest today, jonathan rosenberg. Jonathan rosenberg teaches 20th century u. S. History at the Hunter College and the Graduate Center of the university of new york. His research focuses on the history of the United States in a global context. Before receiving his phd in history from harvard, rosenberg, a graduate of julliard, worked as a Classical Musician. He is also the author of dangerous minds Classical Music in america from the great war to the cold war and it is available for sale and signing at the conclusion of the program. Please, without further ado, join me in welcoming jonathan rosenberg. [applause] dr. Rosenberg thanks. All right. Ok, is my microphone on . I think it is. Very good. Well, thank you all for coming out this afternoon. It is a pleasure to see you here. Its nice to be here in washington, and heartening to see that there is a group of people who are interested in Classical Music and want to hear someone discuss a book on the subject. I would like to begin by asking you to ponder a couple of questions does art matter . What about artists . As we reflect upon American Society today, it can seem that art and the artist have very little impact on our lives, but i would like to tell you about a time, and it was not all that long ago, when art and artists were extraordinarily important. Im thinking specifically about Classical Music in the United States. I would like to take you back to the streets of new york city in the spring of 1958, may of that year. 100,000 new yorkers turned up to watch a tickertape parade honoring pianist dan clyburn, van clyburn, who had recently won a tchaikovsky competition that was held in moscow a few weeks earlier. Cheers cascaded down on clyburn as the parade snaked its way up broadway. Americas newest celebrity was sitting in the backseat of an open car waving to people, blowing kisses to the crowd. Women were reaching out to try to touch him. In moscow, a few weeks earlier, premier Nikita Khrushchev saw what was to be an enthusiastic participant in this emerging clyburn affair. Millions of americans saw the way he playfully chatted. Pianist. Young they developed a nice relationship. The russian leader even famously gave clyburn a bear hug. When the pianist got back to the United States, clyburn mania swept the country. He was invited to the white house to meet with Dwight Eisenhower. It must be said, Dwight Eisenhower had no interest in Classical Music. When his press secretary was asked whether clyburn would play during the visit, he said, i dont think so, and he did not. People read accounts of clyburns every move in newspapers and magazines. There were portraits, opinion pieces, discussions of his baptist roots, articles on if his victory in moscow would somehow transform the u. S. Soviet relationship. Can one imagine such a thing today . Would the overseas accomplishments of a Classical Musician capture the attention of americas political leaders or the countrys newspapers and magazines . Would we have a tickertape parade that would attract 100,000 delirious fans held for an artist with a gift for playing tchaikovsky . I think we know the answer to that is no, but in an earlier time, a pianists triumph could mesmerize the American People. Few would question the notion that Classical Music has little relevance in contemporary america. Its connection to the larger culture is tenuous at best, leading magazines offer very little coverings of the goingson in the world of Classical Music. Newspapers supply little more than short reviews of concerts and recitals. For nearly all americans, the Classical Music landscape in the United States is alien terrain. Perhaps this group is an exception to that. But this was not always so. Dangerous melodies tells the story of an age when Classical Music occupied a permanent place, not only in the nations cultural life, but in its political life as well. Id to tell that story, explore the connection between the world of Classical Music in the u. S. And some of the crucial International Developments of the 20th century. Over many decades, i argue in the book, Classical Music achieved a degree of significance that the music had never known before and which it surely lacks today. But of course, the question is , why did Classical Music once command such attention . From world war i to the cold war, the Classical Music community in the United States became entangled in international affairs. It was bound up in the two world wars that the United States fought against germany with the soviet union, an important ally in world war ii. It was entwined in emergence of italian and german fascism between the wars, and it would be caught up in americas struggle with the soviet union after 1945, a long, seemingly unending, cold war. These three countries germany, italy, and the soviet union were wellsprings of rich musical traditions and the birthplaces of distinguished musical figures, and americans had long admired both those traditions and the musicians who embodied them. It was difficult, therefore, for people in the United States to separate americas relations with germany, italy, and the soviet union from the music and musicians of those three lands. As a result, the Classical Musical community in the United States was drawn into the swirl of International Politics and the intersection between the Music Community and unfolding overseas events supplied Classical Music with a degree of political significance that i think is now difficult to comprehend. Dangerous melodies is filled with stories about instrumentalists, singers, conductors, and composers along with a tale of the work of important musical institutions in the United States, symphony orchestras and Opera Companies. Importantly, it also looks at how listeners understood and responded to Classical Music. A key point in the book is that over many decades, americans imbued the music with political and ideological meaning. The world of Classical Music helped americans grapple with critical questions in the life of the country. It helped them decide what was worth fighting for and why. It helped elucidate the meaning of democracy, freedom, and patriotism. It supplied insight into the nature of tyranny and oppression, and Classical Music in the work of Classical Musicians helped americans reflect upon the countrys purpose in what was a dangerous century. What role will the United States play in the world . Musicologist,ne music is not just something nice to listen to. Instead, he writes, it is what we may get and what we make of it. He rights that people think through music and use it to decide who they are. I would suggest to you that for many decades, the American People did a great deal of thinking through music, and their reflections on Classical Music and on the birth of musicians and performing work of musicians and performing institutions allowed them to achieve a deeper understanding of americas place in the world. As i conducted research for this across striking things i did not expect to find, which is almost inevitable when you are doing research on a book, but i was struck by some things that were utterly unexpected. The first concerns an enduring debate on the relationship between art and politics in the United States. It was a bitter debate. It pitted those who viewed Classical Music in highly nationalistic terms against those possessing a more idealistic perspective. I call them the musical nationalists and the musical universalists. The musical nationalists saw the world is a perilous place. They were convinced that the act of listening to pieces by certain composers or attending performances by particular singers, instrumentalists, or conductors could somehow contaminate the country or even perhaps endanger the American People. Those moments when the country felt particularly vulnerable, the musical nationalists favored banning the music of certain composers or preventing certain artists from performing in the nations concert halls and opera houses. Unlike musical nationalists, universalists were convinced that art transcended politics and national rivalries. They believed music could act as a unifier, a force for uplift, perhaps even a catalyst for global cooperation. The musical universalists, not surprisingly saw Classical Music as a universal language, which could speak to all of humanitys hopes and dreams. For many years, the debate between the musical nationalists and musical universalists roiled in newspapers, magazines, and competing public pronouncements. And the passion that characterized this public wrangling heightened Classical Musics political significance across the country. A couple of other things i did not expect to find as i researched dangerous melodies after all, it is a book about the history of Classical Music. What i in a sense uncovered were two vital aspects of history thes. Countrys growing activism around the world, and its increasing anxiety over antidemo attic regimes democratic regimes. Consequently, dangerous melodies is not just a history of Classical Music in the United States. It also reveals how the United States became more assertive in World Politics in the 20th century. And how the American People experienced a growing sense of distress over the threat posed by antidemocratic rulers. Kaiser wilhelm, benito adolf hitler of , stalin and his soviet successors. I would like to turn to the meat of the book and look at a couple of important episodes in this history. I would like to begin by turning to the First World War, which began in the summer of 1914. In u. S. Entered the war 1917. Wars can do peculiar things to societies. World war i was no exception. It caused unsavory attitudes to bubble to the surface of american life. The german state and its people were portrayed in barbaric terms. Germanamericans and all things german ultimately would be scorned in this country. The german language was no longer taught in schools. German books were removed from library shelves. There were book burnings in america of german language books. Trivially, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage, hamburgers were liberty steak, german measles, yes liberty , measles. But more seriously, germans were tarred and feathered. They were beaten. A drunken mob lynched a german laborer in a small town in illinois. German musicians did not escape the fury. The concert hall became a battleground upon which ethnic animosity and patriotic aspirations would be contested. It is worth keeping in mind that in this period, late 19th and into the 20th century, the of musicculture in the United States was really quite teutonic. It was dramatic. Rehearsal of u. S. Orchestras in this period took place in germany. The majority of orchestral repertoire that was performed was german. Most conductors were german, a a large number of musicians were german. Into all thisrawn antigerman sentiment in the country, music did. Many believed the american war effort could be fortified by dictating who could conduct, who could perform, and what could be played. I would like to turn to boston, which was a home at that time to one of the finest symphony orchestras in the United States. It still is one of the great orchestras in the country. The music director at that time was german born. He was one of the worlds most celebrated conductors. His problems began when it was alleged that he had refused to play the starspangled banner at a concert in providence, rhode island, in october of 1917. The fact was that he had not been informed of the request to play the piece that evening. The orchestra did not have the music with them. They were not prepared to play it, and it was not played. Things quickly spiraled downward. The affair became a national phenomenon. It was widely covered in the press for a considerable amount of time. In philadelphia, Theodore Roosevelt said, any man who refuses to play the starspangled banner in this time of crisis should be forced to pack up and return to the country he came from. In baltimore, a boston symphony concert they were on the road doing a little tour a boston symphony concert was canceled when it was feared a riot might erupt. There was no concert. A large rally was held anyway. It was led by a former politician over there. Cries of kill muck rang out at the rally. It was a vicious scene. I describe it in some detail in the book. In new york, karl muck became the target of a Toxic Campaign to keep him off the stage. The effort failed. He performed a few concerts there. They were well reviewed. There were Police Officers stationed in the concert hall. Mucks fate was hardly secure. Back in boston on the night of karl muck was, arrested. He was not charged with any crime. He was hauled off to the local jail and a few weeks later, he would be shipped off to a place called Fort Oglethorpe in georgia, which was a place that held german prisoners. Not necessarily war prisoners but germans who lived in the United States. The u. S. Government labeled muck a dangerous enemy alien, and he would spend the rest of the war in this prison camp along with several thousand other german aliens, many of whom were musicians. The book has much more on the karl muck saga, including his love affair with a young singer, which became public after his arrest and further inflamed the situation. Still more troubling, the authorities accused him of espionage. There are a number of allegations against him. He was said to have signaled german vessels at sea from a summer see said cottage he had on the maine coast. Theres no credible evidence to support any of these allegations. Karl muck was no spy. He was a faithless husband, but he was not a spy. Several months after the war, he was deported, never to return to the United States. Throughout the country, german music and german musicians were the object of antigerman hatred. In new york city, in the 19171918 concert season, no german opera would be performed. German singers were fired. The opera house had become an extension of the battlefield. A band was also placed on orchestral pieces by living german composers. There were some who opposed the decision. They thought it was completely foolish. These were mainly the musical universalists. One publication said this notion of banning the music by all living german composers was absurd. After all, the publication claimed, if strauss were to die tomorrow, his music would suddenly become acceptable. How silly is that . These sorts of bands, though, were nationwide. The music of living german composers was a special target. Wagner operas were also banned. In the city of pittsburgh, all german music completely was proscribed. Cincinnati had a very distinguished conductor, an austrian. He was arrested and imprisoned, sent to the same prison camp as muck. He committed no crime. It was vaguely reported he had said some antiamerican things at social gatherings. In chicago, several german musicians in the orchestra were dismissed. Again, they were charged with no crimes. The chicago symphony had a very distinguished printable cellist. Principal cellist. He was dismissed after he was accused of adding obscene lyrics to the starspangled banner. He also failed to stand up during the performance of the marseilles. He was asked why. He said, i could not stand and continue to play my cello. [laughter] the end of the war in 1918 did not mean the end to antigerman hostility in the country. I will not go into it in detail today, but the book goes into it in considerable detail. In the fall of 1919, 1 year after the war ended, blood was shed and gunfire rang out on the east side of new york city when violent protests erupted over performances of german opera and operetta by a new opera company. That company was soon forbidden from offering new yorkers german opera. In effect, there were riots on the streets of new york over this. This was a year after the end of the war. Gradually, over the next few years, german music would be hurt again. Germany had been tamed in the war, and its music again soothed and inspired the American People. By the 1930s, developments in germany again aroused concern. In 1936, the most famous conductor in the country decided he was going to step down from his post at the new York Philharmonic. The big question was who was going to replace toscanini . The matter of replacing him became tangled very quickly in foreign affairs. A german conductor was a top the list of successors. He and toscanini were arguably the two most distinguished conductors in the world. He led the berlin philharmonic. When the new York Philharmonic announced that he had agreed to succeed toscanini, the story received feverish National Press coverage. An artist who could be linked to the nazi regime, and many people did exactly that, was an unappealing prospect to say the least. People were convinced that his actions starting when hitlers came to power made him an entirely unsavory figure. He had remained in nazi germany to work under hitlers. Almost immediately, new York Philharmonic subscribers began canceling their subscriptions to the following year. A Jewish Business leader called it unthinkable to appoint an official of the nazi government to lead this august musical organization. The key question really became to what extent he was a supporter of and complicit in the policies of nazi germany. Heartfelt letters appeared in local newspapers and actually in newspapers in other parts of the country as well. In the New York Times, a woman said, as a member of the race which they abuse, im stunned that this sanctuary of music in america has been successfully invaded by the hordes of hitler. Keep in mind, this is 1936, so this is before the start of the Second World War, but not everyone agreed. There were those who argued again, here, we have the musical universalists that he had acted honorably, was not a member of the nazi party. There was some evidence that suggested his opposition to hitler. He refused, at least for a time, to dismiss jews from the berlin philharmonic, and it was said by some that music and politics should be kept apart. Many, of course, rejected this notion out of hand. A jewish weekly called him the highest u. S. Official of a government which had relegated musical art to the gutter. The rhetoric was quite intense back and forth. Finally, responding to the ferocious opposition that was boiling in new york, he withdrew his acceptance. His cable was both highminded and patronizing. Political controversies disagreeable to me, not politician but exponent of german music which belongs to all humanity regardless of politics. By and large, his decision not to come to the United States certainly met with a National Reaction and most publications were quite pleased that he had decided not to come. Time magazine trumpeted in a headline nazi stays home. His fate had been sealed by the irate opposition among those who had refused to support an artist whose ties to a malevolent regime were questionable at best and possibly worse than that. I will in a few minutes come back to revisit the question when something happens after world war ii which resembles this set of developments in the 1930s. But i would like to say a few things now about the Second World War. During world war ii, americans witnessed a powerful illustration of musics capacity to fortify the war effort so performance of russian composition became the most sensational Classical Music story of the war years. Im speaking about the countrys encounter with the shostakovich seventh symphony. This happened in 1942 when it was premiered in the United States, and this makes clear how music and politics were intertwined. In june of that year, 1942, nbc announced that the seventh symphony would receive its american premiere in a july broadcast led by toscanini. The nbc symphony was his orchestra. The concert would be heard by millions of people across the country on nbc stations. It would ultimately be broadcast on shortwave facilities around the world, and adding weight to the event was the fact that the symphony had been composed by an artist from the soviet union, which was, of course, a crucial wartime ally. The peace meshed with the u. S. Governments desire to fortify the bond between washington and moscow. The press release captured the drama of the moment, noting the piece had been composed by shostakovich while he was living under the flame and fire of the nazi attack on leningrad. Nbc said the symphony was inspired by the soviets repulsion of the nazi hordes at leningrad. Shostakovich was living with his family in leningrad and compose a few movements of the symphony while he was there. By july 19, 1942, the shostakovich seventh received its u. S. Premiere. As i said, it was heard by millions of people, and im going to ask the person upstairs to play an excerpt it is a short excerpt of this piece. This is an actual performance from july 1942, so why dont you listen to a minute or so of that . Dr. Rosenberg thank you. My conducting skills are somewhat limited. As i say, it was listened to widely in the country. By millions in the country. It was covered widely by the press, and it was preceded by highly political remarks that contrasted german brutality with russian heroism and american generosity. Listeners were told that the finale of the work would hail the ultimate victory of light over darkness, of humanity over barbarism. The cover of Time Magazine pictured a stern faced shostakovich in a wartime fire marshals helmet staring resolutely into the distance with burned out buildings in the background. This was a National Event that, as i said, millions of people were aware of, millions of people in a sense participated in. And shostakovich and his seventh symphony remained in the news after the july, 1942 premier. Why . Toward the end of the summer and into the fall, leading orchestras around the country gave their own premieres of the symphony. It was performed in boston, cleveland, chicago, washington, minneapolis, and out in california. The piece became a nationwide phenomenon. Thousands of people were listening in local concert halls, the press was covering it. In cleveland, a distinguished conductor said the performance was not just one of the greatest musical events of years, one of the greatest political events. The los angeles philharmonic played the work in october. They gave two performances, the first was in their auditorium in the city, and the second for thousands of soldiers at a desert army base. Actor Edward G Robinson supplied opening remarks. If i were back teaching at my college, i would have to explain who he was. [laughter] i think probably many of you will recall who he was. He supplied the opening remarks and said the following listen youse mugs, pipe down for the big doings. He then described how shostakovich was a hero and composed the peace during a siege of leningrad and the l. A. Times declared that the soldiers were enthralled and the musical spirit of war came to practice land. Even a year after the premier, newsweek claimed the whole world knows about demetri shostakovich. I think it is difficult today to imagine a piece of Classical Music taking on such political meaning. It is almost impossible to imagine. In 1945 with the surrender of germany and japan, a new era marked by unprecedented challenges and in addressing possibilities again to take shape. For the United States, the new age into to a fundamentally different orientation toward the world. Many musicians in the u. S. Embraced the idea that there already that their art would be able to contribute to a new world. Despite this, controversies erupted. Thus, even after the nazi threat was gone, the prospect of certain artists coming to america to perform, particularly those who were seen as supporting or sympathizing with hitler, cast a pall over the American Music scene. Given what naziism had perpetrated across europe, many believed that with those whose wartime behavior was suspect, there was no compromise. Moreover, americas distress over totalitarianism intensified, driven by the fear of soviet communism, and there was a tendency to equate stalin with hitlers, and that made it important to grapple with the meaning of naziism. Concerns persisted about what it meant. Americans were again forced to grapple with a crucial question reminiscent of the First World War. Should artists who embraced antidemocratic ideas or who consorted with toxic regimes be banished . This issue emerged with intensity and stormy postwar debate that involved a number of people. I document this in the book. I will talk about one such person today. Their alleging wartime ties to naziism and plans to come to the u. S. To perform created heated response among musicians, listeners, government officials, and thousands of citizens, who believed their presence on u. S. Soil would contaminate American Society. As i said, i want to talk about a specific controversy. In the summer of 1948, the chicago symphony, one of the best in the country, invited a conductor for the season. The belief that his activities were inseparable from those of the nazi regime would generate an impassioned response. They negotiated for months to get the particulars of the deal right, and they did eventually, and he was appointed in december of 1948 to come the following fall. But the public began to weigh income a particular jewish leaders and jewish organizations. I would like you to hear some of these voices. A misses joseph perlman, who represented 1250 member families of a local chicago synagogue , noted that even if he wasnt thought to have been a collaborator, he had prostituted his art to the brutal nazi while other more principled artists fled to germany or refused to serve their nazi masters. Rabbi morton berman, from the Chicago Branch of the American Jewish congress, spoke out against the appointment. With respect to the conductors contention he had helped save jews, berman said that he had repeatedly heard war criminals on trial make this very claim. He said saving a small number of jews did not excuse him from official active participation in a regime that murdered 6 million jews and other nonjews. The conductor said the nazis used him as a symbol of responsibility and culture. But there were other more anonymous people who weighed in. A poignant letter from a man from the bronx to the chicago symphony. He said, i am an american citizen, a veteran who had served in the army for three years. I want to protest against allowing this nazi follower of hitler to conduct in the United States. He was an ex soldier and claimed that the help of figures like this had allowed hitler to kill millions, including hundreds of thousands of american soldiers. Musical luminaries weighed in also. Arthur rubinstein and Vladimir Horowitz were particularly scathing about this appointment. Horowitz said his decision to stop performing in chicago, which he said he was going to do , was made out of respect for the thousands of americans who had died fighting naziism. Moreover, he said, given his international standing, yet conductor could have left germany. That conductor could have left germany. Rubenstein said he refused to work with anyone who had collaborated with hitler, goering, or goebels. He also pilloried the conductor for remaining in germany. As for the claim that he had protected jews for the nazi regime, rubenstein said this is unconfirmed. The officials of the chicago symphony began to question the wisdom of this decision. Maybe it wasnt such a good idea. They communicated this to the conductor and he pushed back. He pointed out that he had been cleared by courts in the in and berlin and vienna. He said i have a letter exonerating me by the u. S. Military government. And one of his most revealing observations, he said some artists refuse to collaborate with me today because i fought hitler in his own country and of fighting him from abroad. Instead of fighting him from abroad. Beyond the extraordinary claim that he had fought hitler from inside germany, he had first of all saved the lives of jewish musicians, and it is worth pointing out that some in the u. S. Spoke up on his behalf. Again, these were people who embraced the ideas of musical universalism. The most wellknown was an american born jewish violinist. He said of all german musicians, the conduct or had put up the to the nazis. E he had never joined the party, which was true, and he had done his best to protect jewish rescissions in the berlin philharmonic. Others spoke similarly. On january 14, 1949, a wartime photo, iconic photo of the nazi leadership and the conductor appears in the Chicago Daily news. He is sort of scene bowing to the leadership in the front row. You can see the nazi hierarchy. Ler. Uding hit five days later, the newspaper published a brief story stating that the conductor was withdrawing and will not be coming to chicago. Clearly, the toxicity of the german ideology continued to distressed many who could not sever the connection between art and politics. Though nazi germany had disappeared in the spring of 1945, the malevolent character of naziism had impressed itself on the american mind. The wars end didnt mean that its effect had simply evaporated. Selfdescribed jewish subscriber wrote to the Chicago Daily news in january 1949 and he was assessing the views of those who supported bringing the conductor to chicago. He was assessing specifically those who said they believed in the sanctity of art, and he offered a chilling statement. A knife wielded by an artist will cut just as surely as those wielded by a butcher. Thats what the letter writer wrote. It is true that the conductor was acquitted of nazi activities after the war by an allied tribunal that investigated the actions of leading figures in germany. Regarding that verdict, it is worth highlighting there is a great deal of commentary on this, the u. S. Press covered it extensively in 1946 one of the more astute writers was a New York Times journalist named delbert clark. He wrote extensively about this as i discussed in the book. To briefly quote clark here, he repuked rebuked him for his behavior. He said nazi activity was punishable under the tribunals rules, lacking a moral sense was no crime. My perspective on this, for what it is worth, is that whatever the conductor hoped to accomplish by remaining in hitlers terminate, and he had germany, and he had certain things he imagined he was accomplishing, he certainly in my view, had allowed a depraved regime to use his undeniable artistic gifts in an attempt to achieve legitimacy in the eyes of the world. I think a convincing case can be made that he was complicit in the german governments plans to burnish its image. A position he could have avoided had he left the country at various points, particularly in the 1930s. Many people rejected the idea that an artist could remain outside politics, especially when working under a regime that recognized no boundary whatsoever between art and politics. As i noted earlier, there were postwar debates that demonstrate that the taint of naziism once an artist was associated with it, was extraordinarily difficult to remove. For many, enduring memories made reconciliation impossible. But as i suggested, some were prepared to separate and artists gift from his or her relationship with naziism. These are obviously enormously difficult questions and perhaps we can talk about them afterwards. I would like to turn now to americas postwar of session with communism, which quickly swept across the landscape. Stalin died in 1953, and upon his death, some u. S. Leaders began to conceptualize a new approach toward the soviet union, an approach that might create space for cultural initiatives. Its interesting to note that between 1953 and 1955, the russians had increased the number of dance and Theater Companies and musical organizations they were sending out across the world to other countries. For american policymakers, this demonstrated moscows effort to convince the world of the soviet union possessed a rich creative culture, perhaps one worthy of emulation. Eisenhower was concerned. Quoting europeans has been taught that we are a race of materialists whose only diversions are golf, baseball, football, and horse racing. Cultural diplomacy became one way to combat such perceptions. Orchestral tours became part of u. S. Diplomacy. There were a number of tours i discussed in the book. The first orchestra to go to the soviet union was the boston symphony in 1966. Today im going to focus on the new York Philharmonic trip in 1959. It was sponsored by the u. S. Government and the orchestra went across europe, but they wound up in the soviet union. The conductor was Leonard Bernstein. For Leonard Bernstein, art and politics were intertwined. He wasnt sure the Classical Music could strengthen the bonds among people across the world. He was convinced that a superb orchestra could have a salutary impact on those made insecure by the eastwest competition. Bernstein was a musical univers universalist par , excellence. U. S. Officials felt differently. They advocated a form of musical nationalism. They believe that symphony orchestras could help the u. S. Prevail in the eastwest struggle. Policymakers were convinced that a brilliant symphonic concert could fortify the nations position with its allies and provide sonic ammunition that could be directed against its adversaries. It was hoped that people overseas would recognize that america could do more than make bigbudget hollywood movies or bloated automobiles for suburbanites. As a result, symphony orchestras were sent across the world by the u. S. Government and the belief that violins and trumpets could help win the cold war. Every musician on the new York Philharmonic tour to the soviet union received a brochure, 28 pages long, entitled, so you are going to russia. It instructed american travelers how to prepare for the trip, and once there, how to behave. It may clear that americans visiting the soviet union were participants in a national mission. Tourists were instructed to learn relative fact and figures, not about the soviet union, but about the u. S. The average income, the size of american homes, the number of american telephones and televisions. He was also suggested that they bring along a glossy magazine. Why . To make soviet women envious. Those who were well prepared wouldnt know they had done their best to spread the u. S. Message of goodwill. Clearly, to me, the mission had less to do with spreading goodwill than with showcasing the superiority of the american way of life. On the night of september 11, 1959, bernstein would conduct orchestras farewell concert in moscow. Earlier that day, it was a day that was filled with music. He had let a program that would be shown on American Television a few weeks later. In that daytime performance before an audience of muscovites, the philharmonic played the First Movement of the shostakovich, which we heard an excerpt of before. They played the First Movement of the seventh symphony. The first half of that lecture performance sought Leonard Bernstein comparing american and russian music. He highlighted the similarities between russians and americans by demonstrating how their music had so much in common. Russians and americans even laughed at the same kind of jokes, he said, and he claimed that both countries had to continue to strengthen their relationship. There was no alternative, he believed. That was during the day on september 11. That evening, the philharmonic played works by beethoven and shostakovich, and in attendance for the final concert were two giants of soviet culture, shostakovich and the writer boris pasternak, the author of dr. Zhivago, whom the soviet government had recently reviled. In the days before the concert, a remarkable story unfolded behind the scenes. The disgraced pasternak was living in seclusion after being awarded the nobel prize for literature. He had accepted the award but then was expelled from the soviet Writers Union and the soviet authorities had forced him to turn down the prize. He was living in sort of internal exile. Bernstein wanted to meet him and invited him to the september 11 concert. Pasternak accepted. Mr. Andk then invited misses bernstein to come, which they did. They had an unforgettable time, bernstein reported. They spoke about art, politics, music, all sorts of things. On the night of september 11, that same evening, at the thrilling conclusion of the fifth symphony, the composer embraced Leonard Bernstein. Pasternak went backstage and said to the conductor, you have taken us up to heaven. Now we must return to earth. The philharmonic visit to the soviet union was a dramatic moment in the history of cold war musical diplomacy. Leonard bernstein had articulated with great passion his belief and Classical Musics power to reshape International Relations for when the orchestra returned to the u. S. , they came to perform in washington for an audience of government officials and diplomats. Bernstein gave a speech at the National Press club. It reflected, i think, his extraordinary idealism. If military strength is the nations right arm, he said, culture is is left arm, closer to the heart. You can always touch people with music. And then he linked this idea to the u. S. Soviet relationship. You cant argue with a g sharp, he said. Khrushchev would not know a bflat if he heard one. A few weeks later, millions of americans got to savor the excitement of the trip when the september 11 performance was shown on Cbs Television as part of a Ford Motor Company sponsored documentary. It really is an extraordinarily interesting cold war document. I wish i could show it to you, but the only place you can see it is in the new York Philharmonic archive. It does capture a powerful cold war episode. I discuss it at length in the book. Over many decades, Classical Music and those who performed, composed, listened to, and wrote about it, were drawn into and swept up by the whirlwind of americas global challenges. The music itself did not help the country overcome those challenges. I am not claiming that it did. What it did do, though, was offer americans a way to reflect upon the world. Countless people over many decades fixed their ears and eyes on the activities of Classical Musicians, on the work of composers, and on the labors of leading musical institutions like Opera Companies and great symphony orchestras. The music and the work of the performers helped the nation, as i suggested earlier, grapple with the meaning of patriotism, of loyalty, democracy, freedom, tyranny. And of oppression. The world of Classical Music help americans reflect upon questions of war and peace, which were central to the larger matter of americas role on the world stage. As the cold war waned and threats, especially those emanating from europe, became less fearsome, Classical Music became less wound up in world affairs. As a result, the musics role in american political life largely disappeared. I would suggest that to the extent Classical Music remained meaningful, it still mattered, of course, to musicians and devote as, as it always had, but for the nation as a whole, Classical Music was not nearly as consequential as it had been. What dangerous melodies does is to explore an era in which americans believed that the work of gifted artists and superb musical institutions was inseparable from developments unfolding across the world. It was a time when many were convinced that their very safety might hinge on the performance of a piece of music. Spent a numberi of years researching and writing this book. I still find it remarkable to contemplate that millions of people once believed that what happened in a concert hall or an opera house was inseparable from the destiny of the United States and the wellbeing of the American People. Thank you very much. [applause] dr. Rosenberg so, we are going to do questions now. I will move out here. Anyone who would like to ask questions can do that. I will repeat the question and do my best to answer them. Yes. A fascinating subject. I am wondering what might have to write the book. Dr. Rosenberg well, what book . Ed me to write the and you said it was a fascinating subject. Ive established that, too. [laughter] there are, i suppose, two facets life. Maybe there are more but i will divulge two of them here today. I was a Classical Musician. I was involved in the world of Classical Music for a number of years. That world has always been meaningful to me. I then became a historian of u. S. Foreign relations and foreign affairs. I did some earlier books on civil rights history that i think were interesting and may be vaguely important books, but i wanted to find a way to meld these two things i am deeply interested in and i thought about a variety of ways to do that. I began doing the research and in time, i began to see how this could come together. There is in that sense, very much a personal dimension to this. Thank you. Do you think there is any greater degree or difference between the impact of Classical Music and other areas such as literature or film or paintings or things along that line . Do you think Classical Music can be established from the others in terms of its nationalistic impact . Dr. Rosenberg interesting question. Whether Classical Music can be distinguished from other art forms. What i thought you were going to ask was Classical Music from jazz, which im happy to answer. Its interesting. You mentioned, say, painting. Theres a very good book on thewar contemporary art and way the u. S. Government sought to use contemporary art after world war ii to spread an american, positive american message. I think it is conceivable that the name of the book is fallout shelters for the human spirit. I think its possible to say that fine art, painting could serve that kind of purpose. I am not an expert on the other things, infect i am an expert on this, i suppose, but not on other art forms i think if we are talking about literature, it is more difficult because literature has to be translated into another language, people have to absorb it in that language. We think hatever what can be done with it is you just go and play it. You comply it and people can sit there, and they dont need to necessarily be trained or read it, they can just experience it the way one doesnt a concert a concert hall. What i would say to complicate this, and perhaps distress all of you, i am not sure it was very effective. I dont think these concerts that happened after world war ii i dont think these concerts that happened after world war ii when symphony orchestras were sent around the world i dont have it in the talk but i discuss it in the book i dont think the impact of those concerts was nearly what people hoped it would be. In fact, i think in the end, the world was not changed all that much by these concerts. It is painful to admit, we would like to think these concerts transformed the world. But i dont think they did. I think they can tell us a lot about the world when we study it, they can tell us how people thought about the world and how people thought about adversaries and allies, but in terms of the Transformative Impact of Classical Music after world war ii with some of the stories are i told, i think the impact, sad to say, is limited. There are those in the history profession who would disagree with that. That is my take and i discuss it at length in the book. That is an interesting question. Do you discuss the impact and the role of the other mutual musical forms and ambassadors . Louis armstrong as an example. Jonathan the question was do i discuss other musical forms. No, because it is a long book to begin with, but that raises interesting questions. Louis armstrong was sent by the u. S. Government to various places around the world along with other jazz artists during the cold war. That is quite an interesting question. I think in its way, that was a more effective way to try to transform peoples attitudes. Jazz music, i think, has a different impact on people, or can, than Classical Music. It is a more transgressive kind of artform. Oddly, the u. S. Government sent armstrong over when the kind of music people in the soviet union wanted to hear was modern jazz, and they were sending him over, but i do think that was extraordinarily interesting because there was a real hankering for american jazz in various parts of the world, and when the jazz artists were sent around the world, they did indeed, i think, have an impact, because it represented something distinctly american. When the u. S. Was sending classical symphony orchestras around the world, by and large, i dont want to say they were bringing coals to newcastle. But that is sort of what they were doing. If you send a jazz group around the world, you are showcasing something distinctively american, and there are compelling issues having to do with race, because there are a lot of african American Musicians. That is another worthy subject for discussion. It has been written about. I do not talk about it in this book, which is just about Classical Music, but it is darn interesting. In 1990, rostropovich took the National Symphony orchestra to moscow. It was the first time he had been there since his exile, and it was an event. There were two concerts in moscow, two in leningrad. Raisa gorbachev attended. The program was shostakovich and tchaikovsky, but it ended with Stars Stripes forever as an encore. I was wondering if you came across that in your research. Jonathan i looked at some recent things, i didnt look at tours i looked at were sponsored by the u. S. Government where the government paid the bill. Did it have government it was the Reagan Gorbachev era. It was one of many similar, this was the peak but there were many similar musical events during the late 1980s, and of the cold the end of the cold war. And i think that would be worthy of another chapter in your next book. [laughter] jonathan my next book is on jazz musicians, but that is a good suggestion. This is about the rostropovich tour in 1990. The book kind of, at the end of the book, i look at the new York Philharmonic trip to north korea. I do look at that, i think that was 2008. I also look at the trips to china by the philadelphia orchestra and boston symphony. So i look at those. The rostropovich experience i am sure would be worth knowing more about. They reflect the times, they dont change foreign policy. Jonathan that is a good point. The rhetoric of government officials and musicians would lead one to think they were trying to be transformative, not merely reflecting the times. The hope was that this would transform International Politics and transform attitudes toward one another. It did not change u. S. China relations, it reflected improvement. Jonathan i agree with you. Yes . Outside of the concert hall and radio broadcasts, Classical Music has also been used in hollywood movie scores. Particularly the music of wagner. Because of his dramatic qualities. I was wondering if there was an attempt to keep german music out of movies during world war ii. Jonathan that is a good question, whether there was an attempt to keep german music out of movies during world war ii. I will begin by answering this way, i dont know enough about movies, but i am glad to have the opportunity to address this. During world war ii, in the United States, unlike world war i, german music was played, it was welcome, people enthused over it. There was not the same reaction to german music in the United States during the Second World War as had happened during the First World War. German music, for example, was used wagner was performed for war bond drives. Toscanini conducted. These were some of his great pieces. Proscription of german music during the Second World War, with one exception. One complete opera was banned in new york, chicago and san francisco. But the prelude was played. Wagner was popular in the u. S. During world war ii. In the book i explain why that was so, that it was a striking departure from what had happened 20 years earlier. Yes . So if history is destined to repeat itself, i am curious, is this a bygone era of Classical Music and its role in the u. S. As well as foreign diplomacy . And if not, how to make this relevant today . Jonathan Classical Music or my book . [laughter] yes, and your subsequent chapter of i am looking at the homogeneity of the room here. I know in Classical Music today, is not as homogeneous as it once was. How can Classical Music be used in a similar way, culturally speaking, if music, the military is the right, full disclosure, im in the military, if the military is the right arm and music is the left arm . How can we bring these together . What way would you see that happening . Jonathan i am better at looking at the past then at predicting the future. Generally historians are not comfortable with the idea that history is the prelude to the future, or the past is prelude to the future. And again, i dont mean to depress everyone, i would like to say that we could slap a few things together and Classical Music would become deeply relevant again. I dont see it happening. Maybe i am naturally pessimistic. I think there are things that have happened in the world of music generally in the world of American Culture that make it hard to imagine Classical Music can regain significance and prominence and consequential character it had in the time i am talking about. I simply dont see it happening. My wife is a violinist and a string teacher, so i hear all the time about young people and Classical Music and playing string instruments, and i was involved in it a long time ago. I think certainly the world has changed very much from the period covered in that book, and obviously anything is possible, but it is hard for me to imagine a pathway toward the renewed relevance of Classical Music. I dont really see it happening. I am sorry to be so gloomy. Thats why this is so interesting, it explains what it was like at a particular time, and i think from our vantage point, it seems rather unfathomable. I hope i have explained why it was that way. Recapture it, i am not sure. Yes . This is a Perfect Question after your gloomy comments. What do you think about yoyo mas travels around the world . You dont think that is transformative and bringing peace to the world . Jonathan i have the highest regard, the transformative quality of character and character of yoyo ma has he contributed to bringing peace to the world . Is that the ok. I have the highest, highest regard for yoyo ma, he is one of the great artists of our time, and i even have the highest regard for his aspirations, which are not dissimilar from many of the aspirations i was talking about. I have seen him in new york give talks about this stuff and it is unbelievably compelling and moving. You know, you want to believe that what he is doing is out there transforming the world. My response, and i do not mean to denigrate yoyo ma, i hope he reads this book, he is a remarkable musician. Can any Classical Musician transform the world in the way he would like to . I am not convinced it is possible. Anything is possible, i am just not convinced it is possible. Leonard bernstein was a remarkable communicator, an extraordinary musician, extraordinary in every sense of the word, and he was a person who had a mission to transform the world through Classical Music. He went on this trip in 1959, and there was another great episode when he takes the philharmonic to berlin in 1960. Shortly thereafter, the berlin wall was going up in 1956, the boston symphony went to the soviet union and shortly thereafter, the soviets invaded hungary. Its very hard to, again, i would like to stand here, the old musician in me wants to think that music can do these things. The historian in me looks of the world and says i am not sure i see it happening that way. I think it is noble that people are motivated by these dreams. I think they should keep trying to pursue them. If you ask me if i think it is where we are going, the world does not look that peaceful to me today, although it probably is more peaceful than 70 years ago. I think Classical Musics power to do this is probably somewhat limited, i think. Which doesnt mean it is not interesting to try to understand how people thought about it and what they believed it could accomplish. Yes . Were there any similar efforts to take Classical Music to japan . Jonathan yes. Any similar efforts to take Classical Music to japan. Certainly the u. S. Government sent orchestras to asia. Bernstein went to japan with the philharmonic in the early 1960s, i think it was. I dont discuss it in the book but orchestras were sent all over the world, and they were certainly sent to asia, including japan. And they were received with enormous enthusiasm. So yes, absolutely. And they were sent, i didnt include it in here, the philharmonic had a remarkably interesting trip to latin america in 1958, which bernstein led. While i focus today on the soviet trip, orchestras were being sent all over the world in that period. On the soviet trip, was there actual interaction between the musicians in both countries . Jonathan yes. Was there interaction between the musicians in both countries . On these trips, and i describe it in the book it is moving to read these accounts, there was a great deal of interaction between and among the musicians, soviet and American Musicians. That happened on all of the trips. Particularly the 1956 trip of the boston symphony, the musicians got together, the soviet musicians loved the actual instruments the americans had because they were better quality instruments and they longed for those sort of instruments. There was a lot of interaction between musicians and even among American Musicians and regular people, there were streetcorner conversations. There have been historians, some who i disagree with a little bit over the last few years, who claim that these interactions are what is really important and we can see that in those interactions, something positive is happening. And i would agree, something positive is happening. I dont think it is something transformative. If musicians can talk to each other or people in the street, there is something positive going on, but i think the extent to which that is changing the world is a rather different kind of question. So yes, there were interactions. There are many questions i would like to ask, but i will limit it to one. I wanted to know to what extent american appreciation for Classical Music has something to do with High School Education and whether Music Education is stressed or even conducted anymore in high school. Jonathan excellent question. I did not plant this man in the audience. [laughter] jonathan at the end of the book, whether the education has come of the decreased interest in Classical Music is a consequence of changes in education, i absolutely agree that it is. In the book, as the book winds down, in the talk today i mentioned the decoupling from Classical Music in these overseas developments was a consequence at least in part because of the waning of the cold war. But you are right to suggest that if we look at American Society today and want to understand, say, why Classical Music is much less relevant than it used to be, it is not my contention that it is only about things like the cold war. I mentioned in the book a few things. One is lots of other forms of vernacular music emerge, rock, pop, which are pulling people away from it. I think Music Education, which is not what it used to be viewed what it used to be. You are not exposing small children and middle School Children and high School Children to Classical Music as i was exposed in high school. I know this because i know people who teach in schools. They are not being exposed to it at a young age and that will undoubtedly have consequences in our own time. Finally, i think the distraction of television and Digital Culture plays havoc with all sorts of things, not least Classical Music. Classical music, when you are a child and exposed to it, it requires a certain focus, and a solitariness. These things i think have been devalued by Digital Culture. My phone is off at the moment, but you understand, we are living in a world that is so fundamentally different from even when i grew up, and i think Classical Music has been adversely affected by all of these distractions that young people are exposed to. To follow up on that, we know about the decline of the print press, but journalists from the New York Times will tell you they reach a larger audience today thanks to online distribution. I am wondering for Classical Musicians, for spotify and other apps, if Classical Musicians in and Classical Music, despite the dwindling attendance in symphony halls, is not reaching a larger worldwide audience. Jonathan thats an interesting question, if Classical Music is reaching a wider audience because of digital technology. Interesting question. The first thing i would say by way of a copout is that the book really is a book about the history of that period, not about the present, but nevertheless. I dont know the statistics because i wasnt studying the contemporary state of Classical Music but there is a lot of Classical Music out there and lots of people are listening to it. I go to a lot of concerts and the people are usually on the older side. But certainly people are listening to Classical Music through various means and mechanisms. But i guess if i were to speak directly to that point with respect to the book, there may be lots of people listening to it, but it is not as consequential. The connection between great events, and events that are central to the life of the country, and Classical Music, simply is not there anymore. I dont know what the attendance rates are in concert halls across america, maybe they are quite high, but i know there are certainly many orchestras that are struggling financially, even great and famous ones. What interested me in this book was looking at the centrality in american life. Not so much in terms of how many people are listening or in a concert hall. One of the things to me that was interesting was there are lots of people scattered throughout this book who are not particularly interested, they were not Classical Music lovers or devotees, but the music drew them in because the music became involved in world wars and fascism and the cold war. You have thousands of soldiers rioting outside an opera house in new york city in 1919. They probably were not Classical Music lovers. They were energized and animated by the music in a different sort of way. I just think if you are trying to make a living, dollar and cents, selling your artistic talents jonathan it is hard to make a living as a Classical Musician these days. There may be other modalities to do it, i am no longer an expert on that, but it is an interesting thing to contemplate certainly. Yes . I was just wondering if in the course of the book you explored the investment from the u. S. Government in all of these programs from the First World War and through the cold war. Jonathan if i explore the investment of the u. S. Government . The u. S. Government, about the investment of the u. S. Government. How they could do these programs and send orchestras and the investment in the arts in general. Jonathan well, it really starts after world war ii, it starts in the 1950s. I do document in the book the legislation that was passed, initially a few Million Dollars a year. There were laws passed, legislation having to do with cultural diplomacy, 19 54, 1955, 1956, and that is when the funding begins. The funding is at its height in the cold war and it begins to diminish, to peter out as the cold war becomes less central to american diplomacy. Certainly with respect to Classical Music. In fact, some of the tours, even in the late 60s and 70s, they become joint ventures, privatepublic partnerships in terms of funding. But in the 1950s, when this really starts, the u. S. Government, they go all in. They are able to send orchestras organizationscal around the country for a number of years until it begins to wane in the midtolate 1960s and into the 1970s. Thank you. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] you are watching American History tv. All weekend, every weekend on cspan three. Our cspan cities tour takes American History tv on the road to feature the history of cities across america. Here is a recent program. Nancy jq dickinsons saltworks is the revival of a family business. It started in the early 1800s. My ancestors started evaporating and crystallizing salt with 50 other manufacturers in the region which made this little