Transcripts For CSPAN3 Peter Wehner At The Washington Center 20240713

The age of trump. And then as i say, would love to engage with you all. I grew up in Washington State. And developed an interest in politics at a very early age. We had a cabin in the cascade mountains. It was on the east side of the state. I still remember as a kid driving with my parents to our cabin. We went every weekend. And we would talk about Public Policy. We always listened to the news at the top of the hour. And i was just a question asker. So i would ask my dad, why do the israelis and arab world not get along . And what about president nixon and Henry Kissinger and so those issues really fascinated me along with sports. And then when i got to high school, i was i got into debates with my social studies teachers. They were liberal, i was conservative. Not because i thought through political theory but mostly because my parents were conservative. And so that was always a passion. I went to university of washington. And my undergrad was political science. And a big deal to me, it was critical to my own career was actually internships. I was an intern at the Washington State senate when i was a junior. I worked for a state senator in olympia and then came to d. C. Whether i was a senior at university of washington. And interned at the center for strategic and international studies. That is one of the big breaks that i got. I assumed i would return to seattle. I really didnt know what i was going to do. I guess i assumed i would go to law school even though i didnt want to be a lawyer. I thought, well, i need that as a credential. But i did have an interest in at some point getting involved in politics. When i was at uw, i used to go to the main library on the campus, beautiful campus in seattle. I would listen to john f. Kennedy speeches on my own time to the point i actually memorized them, not for credit in a course but just because i listened to them so often. I really could have fell in lveh with language, the power of words. And i thought kennedys words were very powerful. I read biographies and autobiographies, people that worked in various administrations. I thought, wow, wouldnt that be great someday to work in a white house, and i ended up making my way to one. Internship at csis. I got some jobs in the think tank world including when i was just a young buck at the policy center. Eventually was hired as a speechwriter for the secretary of education for Ronald Reagan at the time. I was intimidated when i went over. I remember calling my colleagues at ethics and Public Policy center and said if i crash and burn, would you take me back . I felt like i was dropped in the deep end. And i didnt know how to swim. It worked out. I developed a Good Relationship with bill. Then worked in the george h. W. Bush administration as an aide and speechwriter for bill when when he was the socalled drug czar. Then in the 90s, i was policy director at a think tank called empower america which is jack kemp, whos this very large figure in the conservative movement in the 80s and 90s. Jack tragically died years ago. Bill and gene kirkpatrick were the founders of empower america. I was there through the 90s and then hired as a speechwriter for george w. Bush when he came president after the florida recount was taken care of. Michael gerson was the chief speechwriter for the president. Was one of my closest friends. I got do know mike when i was at empower america. He hired me as Deputy Director of speechwriting. I did that job for two years. Just an anecdote on the speechwriting side of things, mike would normally go to the senior Staff Meetings which were held at 7 30 in the roosevelt room, but when he was not there, i would go in his stead. And i remember the morning of september 11th being struck of that this is one of the most uneventful days of the bush presidency. And the big topic of conversation is there was supposed to be a congressional barbecue on the south lawn of the white house. The tuesday Late Afternoon of the 11th. And so when i got back to my office, i did what i always did with mike is wrote him an email summarizing what had happened in the senior staff meeting. And i first line of the email was nothing much is going on today. And that was sent precisely five minutes before the first trade tower was hit. Mike was actually had been at home working on a communities character speech because we had gotten a number of our main initiatives, taxes and education passed by that time. And we were thinking through whats the fall jeagenda going look like for the white house . Mike was working on this. The plane hit the first tower. And like most people, i thought this is a tragic accident. I went down and got coffee. I went back up to my office, a few minutes after 9 00 the second plane hit and, of course, you immediately knew something was on. We were under attack. I called mike and he was on 395. One of the main arteries here in the d. C. Area. He said, man, its like a parking lot, im just stuck in traffic, nothings moving. And he had commented on how low a plane had flown while he was on 395. It turned out that was the plane that hit the pentagon. And in a moment like that, you find out where you rank on the totem pole of importance in the white house. So if youre important and significant figure when they evacuated the white house because of getting all the reports about the attacks that were coming in, we said the capitol was being hit. State department was being hit. And so if you were important, they took you to a bunker, secret bunker. If you were me, you ended up on the corner of 17th and pennsylvania avenue alone. Locking up at the sky wondering what is going on here . I remember distinctly having this feeling, it was a beautiful day, crystal blue sky. And looking up and thinking, i feel like im in a movie except in a movie it has a script. And you know how it ends. I thought this one doesnt have a script. So i dont know how this thing is going to end. Anyway, i was there. You can imagine, it was an eventful time as a speechwriter. The wordsst president matter. They particularly mattered after september 11th. Then win the on to after a couple years josh bolton who became chief of staff recommended me to become director of something called the office of Strategic Initiatives which is an inHouse White House think tank. That job was perfectly aligned for my interests and skill set. So there i was involved in policy, politics, communications, it was an in House White House think tank. To the extent that i had influenced in the white house at that point. It wasnt because of where the office fit in the flow chart. It is based on relationships with people in the white house and other offices. But i get along well with everybody. It was a really good experience. And i was very tl early in 2007 and then i went to where i am now and that is a think tank here in washington. And many i world now is primarily writing. I write for the New York Times and the atlantic and do commentary on television and so forth. When i got involved in politics, i wasnt cynical about it. Im still not. I dont think im naive about politics. I understand theres there are down side to it. And there are people who are involved in politics who are not embodiment of virtue and high mindedness. But thats true in every profession in life. I think that politics matters. I think politics is finally and fund mentally about justice. And human flush flourishing and the human good. It matters. Most of the people i come across in politics, including the people i disagree with philosophically and in terms of Party Politics are generally good people. And most people get involved in my experience politics for the right reasons. Some of its mixed. Motivations are mixed. Personal ambitions are there. Again, thats true in every profession. Its the nature of human condition. But most people that i know want to get in politics because they have some ideas that they care about, some causes they want to pursue. And my attitude is good. Good for you. And it matters. And stay involved and keep fighting. Just very quickly, ive been as can you figure out, a life lolo republican from my earliest days. My first vote was for Ronald Reagan in 1980. And i worked in three administrations. George wuch w. Bush white house. Philosophically, im a conservative and have been my entire life. I am a, however, a sharp critic of donald trump. Im not really particularly aligned with the Republican Party right now. There are a group of us conservative critics of trump who at this point can fit in a phone booth. And so its not a large group. But were making the arguments that we can. Its slightly complicated. Happy to go through it during q a. I dont disagree with all of Donald Trumps policies though i disagree with some of them. But i think the danger he poses is in a whole realm of other areas. And i think hes a threat to the country, to the conservative cause and to the Republican Party. I say that as someone who still a conservative. Im not one of those who became so disaffected by whats happened that i changed my political philosophy. Im actually a critic of the president in part because i am a conservative. But its made life interesting as can you imagine. I have a lot of friends over my lifetime. Who see things very differently than i am. I am a person of the Christian Faith. And been involved been associated with mostly evangelical churches most of my life and white evangelicals are overwhelmingly supportive of donald trump. Im out of step there as well. So part of my life these days is trying to make sure that relationships stay intact even though we have disagreements. I think friendships are more important than politics. And i think that its extremely important to actually have relationships and friendships with people who dont see the world the same way you do politically, thee logically and in every other way. Because i think thats part of the way we learn. And its important to be able to see other peoples perspectives even if you dont agree with them. I dont have a clue whats going to happen in 2020. Im happy if you want to have a conversation about what might unfold. But as for me, you know, im a writer on contemporary affairs. I write on politics and also on faith and sports and other things. And as a writer, you just try and put these things in perspective. You call them as you see them h you have an obligation, i think, to tell the truth and to speak the truth as well as you can. To be open to being wrong and hopefully amending your views along the way. But as for me, there arent many jobs i can imagine, one i could do particularly well and also ones that would be as satisfying for me as ive been involved with because these conversations, these debates, i think, are important. Its a chance to learn. And a chance to talk about things that matter. And there are worse things in life than that. So thats basically my life. And in eight or nine minutes. And other than that, i will just open up to q a. You can ask anything you want. And either my own experience, politics, theology or anything else. Okay. Sure. Lets start over here. Okay. My name is kristen. Im from the harvard extension school. I was just curious, weve done readings on how the tea party affected the Republican Party. Right. Sbels as well as we had ha f conversations about donald trump not necessarily being a very conservative republican. Right. So i was curious since youve been a lifelong republican, selfstated, if you thought that these sort of i dont want to say conflicts but challenges to the republican line, if they result in a strengthening of the Republican Party down the line or if its something that you feel causes too much disruption to the party and takes away from its overall value. Thanks, great, both good questions. The tea part first. Its a really fascinating journey of the Republican Party in recent years because the Tea Party Movement is really, i guess, grew i guess the genesis of the Tea Party Movement was the bail yout of t banks after the 2008 financial crisis which i actually think was an almost unmitigated success. If theres, by the way, a really good documentary called panic the untold story of the 2008 financial crisis. Its advice that puts it on, i dont think its hbo. In any event, they actually interview the key protagonists during the 2008 crisis, paulson, geithner, bernanke, president bush, obama, jeff bolton and others. Its a fascinating account of what happens. Simplify dramatically, they had to bail out the banks of what was a very, very nasty recession. The bailout caused a tremendous populist anger and upsurge. Why are the banks getting bailed out when we as individuals dont . That was a completely fair question to ask. The answer is the banks went belly up, so did the rest of the economy. There would be huge collateral damage. They ended up paying back the loans. That is what catalyzed this revolt. The tea part was a very strongly limited government movement, populist antiestablishment. And that really drove the 2010 midterm elections, which was very damaging to the democratic party. Because obama retire to that president obama had control of the senate and house and lost control after the 2010 midterms. But the tea party is really kind of petered out. Whats interesting is that donald trump is in many ways the antithesis of the Tea Party Movement, because he himself is not by any standard a limited government conservative. He was the one person that ran in the 2016 that said hes not going to touch reforms, never going to cut spending, never articulates the case for limited government. And himself has certain views that i think are probably contrary to capitalism, certainly the size of government. And yet hes wildly popular within the Tea Party Movement. So its an intellectual movement doesnt exist anymore. What i think it embodied was this populist anger, which trump masterfully tapped into in 2016 and has really ever day since hes been president. And so theres a kind of connection i think between the Republican Base and trump, at least as it speaks to the tea party, not policy driven, intellectual, i think much more affective, almost that its psyche logical and cultural on the level that they frankly revel in the style of his politics. So i dont think the tea party is a force in the republican right now. In terms of trump not being a conservative and whether it will strengthen or weaken the Republican Party, its a mixed bag. It depends, i think, in what area youre talking about. If youre talking about judges. The judiciary. Deregulation, prolife policies, the tax bill that was passed in 2017, those fall generally under the canopy of the Republican Party, traditional policies, conservative policies. But in a lot of ways hes not a conservative. His basically is a americafirst sort of quasi isolationist instincts are not as conservative as has been understood in the modern era. Hes a fierce protectionist. He refers to himself as tariff man. As long as ive been alive, conservatism has stood for free trade than the issue of limited government. Trump cant i dont think be understood as a conservative. I think he has to be understood as a populist. Thats what he has tapped into. He himself is not a populist. I dont think hes anything other than a narcissist. But he tapped into this populist movement. Will it strengthen or weaken the Republican Party . I dont know because i dont know how its going to play out. Im worried about the Republican Party because one of my warnings to the republicans during the nomination when trump was running and then since hes become president is that he would redefine it in his own image, and he has. And ive had plenty of conversations with republicans in congress who know better, have views of trump close mine but they feel they cannot speak publicly about that. For a variety of reasons. I think its a mistake. But i understand their position. Its easier for me than them. I really dont know. I think the Republican Party right now is in a fairly precarious position. One of the reasons, the trajectory of the events is not good. Trump is toxic with rising number of voters, people of color, younger voters, women, suburbs. If you look at the results of the 2018 midterms, you can see the coming catastrophe longer term. I live out in virginia, the tenth district, our representative house member was barbara comstock. In 2016 its slightly democratic so purplish district, and Hillary Clinton won by about four or five points opinion and barbara ran and won reasonably comfortable in 2016. In 2018 she got obliterated, lost by 12 points. That is a classic republican will have leaning suburb. Republicanleaning suburb. If you look at what happened in 2020, every republican got mowed down. Think thats going to happen. Whether trump leaves in 2021 or 2025 or somewhere in between, there will be a big fight for the future of the Republican Party. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Hi, im yasmine and i go to suffolk university. My question is referring back to your anecdote, the unfortunate event of september 11th. Since that day, did you see the evolution of nationalism and politics, and specifically within the Republican Party . And if so, do you see it Getting Better or worse in the coming election . Yeah. No, i certainly didnt see it in the aftermath of 9 11. The Republican Party was just a very dramatically different party. The country was different, the country was generally united after 9 11. When i began to see the changes within the Republican Party, and how it was changing toward a sort of ethnic nationalist flavor, id say probably right around the mid2000s, we were pushing a comprehensive Immigration Reform bill. We ended up after the reelection of president bush, which was 200 four, in 2005 or big effort was to Reform Security which went nowhere. We tried Immigration Reform lighter in 2006, and almost got that Immigration Reform bill through, but it ended up failing. We missed the sequencing, in retrospect, we should have led with immigration rather than social security. But for the purpose of your question, what was interesting is you began to see or you could see this rise of antiimmigrant feelings, some sense of hostility, cultural displacement, beginning to build in the party. And that just didnt exist in the 90s or early 2000s. I was never able to locate what catalyzed that. There was no event like if an undocumented worker had a massacre or something at a mall that catalyzed the response, that i would i understand that. But there were factors going on that i didnt really fully understand. Honestly president bush understood what was beginning to happen within the base of the Republican Party, because i remember talking to him and others in this is conversations and he would talk about nativism, protectionism and isolationism, these things that were beginning to rise up. Other thing which was interesting kind of canaries in the coal mine where it was conservative talk radio. If you listened say to Rush Limbaugh Went National in 1988 where for most of his career the binary choice was conservatism and liberalism. But near the end of the 2000s you begin to see the shift where it went from that to establishment, antiestablishment. By the 2010s, 11s, you were almost as likely to hear criticism of john boehner and Mitch Mcconnell as barack obama. There was a feeling of anger toward the establishment and things were not as they wanted. So you could, if you were tuned in, you could tell that there were these elements coursing through the country in the base of the Republican Party, which now i think is manifested in people like, you know, tucker carlson. And theres a sort of ethnic nationalist movement. People, goes by various names, not specific just to america. You see it across much of western europe, as well. Whats interesting, so trump got into the race in june of 2015. And my first column in the New York Times was july of 2015. And it was the headline was President Trump, question mark, just say no. So this was three weeks after he got in. I later learned from my editor that it was hard to get the piece published because people at the times thought, why is he writing about donald trump . This guy is going to dissolve in a matter of weeks. Hes not a threat. I knew he was. I didnt think he would win the presidency. But i knew enough about the conservative movement that i knew he was tapping into something that i thought were pernicious. I didnt think he should be underestimated. Lo and behold, hes president. My name is shavaly gonzalez. Im from miami college. I would like to know any impactful, experience, challenge or hard decision you have made as a christian in the political world . Sorry. Yeah. Hard decision or challenge as a christian in the political world. Its a really good question. I must say for the most part i have not i have not found myself in a position where i felt that my christian beliefs or my christian ethics were in conflict with life and politics. To some extent i think im probably fortunate because the people i surrounded myself were people with integrity. Doesnt mean we didnt make mistakes along the way. But i just wasnt around people who i felt like were had defective character, were asking me to do things certainly as an individual in terms of personal integrity to lie or cheat or anything like that so ive never had that kind of issue or conflict. Policy wise, i will tell you one issue in which i remember having debates with colleagues in the white house, and this was informed from a christian perspective. That was on the issue of enhanced interrogation techniques, critics called it torture. I wasnt involved in the genesis of that program, very few people were, and they were all you can imagine that was just a topsecret program. I remember maybe they were releasing our emails from those years. I dont know when those things get released. But talking through with colleagues, a number of whom were christians, which is, what are the pros and cons of this . Can this be justified or not . It was using very limited circumstances to a very few number of people in an effort to try and get information to try and potentially prevent catastrophic future attacks. But, you know, its an ageold question which is means and ends, where you draw the line. I actually had lunch with a friend of mine, gary howland, who runs a terrific Organization Called International Justice mission. And gary, whos a close friend, a friend at the time, was concerned about it from a christian perspective. So i brought him into the white house and we met with some people of the National Security counsel and elsewhere to talk through those issues. I was always uncomfortable with the program. I could so often you can come up with scenarios here in which you could justify what was done, but youd have to do so with a certain queasiness because that is not a type of thing you want to normalize. But most people can come up with a scenario, you know, if you say look, youve got a highranking terrorist with information. Lets assume for the sake of the argument that waterboarding will elicit information. And that information would save 50,000 lives. Is that lets just for the sake of the argument, is that something that could be justified morally . I think it could, but again i think tough be wary about taking those steps. That was one as a christian i was thinking it through. But as i mentioned, ive not really felt much, much really virtually any tension as a person of the Christian Faith. I think most of it is being alert to the temptations of power and how easy it is to justify, and in my own appearance with having been involved with a lot of christians who are involved in politics, theres this real i guess it is a temptation, to sacralize, baptize, Public Policy, and to think that youre fulfilling the will of god and that god is on your side rather than you trying to be on gods side. And of all the groups that ive been involved with in policies over the years, theres no group i dont think that has been as susceptible to the seductions of political power as the christians quite frankly in politics. Its an odd phenomenon. Because if youre a person of the Christian Faith theres very much a sense that were citizens of two kingdoms, my kingdom is not of this world, jesus said, and theres supposed to be a distance between life here. And yet for reasons that are complicated, i think a lot of christians are very easily seduced. Chuck colson, he was kind of a political hit man for nixon before his conversion, later said they were about the easiest people when he was in the Nixon White House to seduce. You basically had to give christian leaders a picture of the president. Labor leaders at least you had to negotiate over something tangible and real. But i think for christians it was access to power that really rang their bell. Im from the university of san diego. Hi. I had a question about how you feel from your lens of analysis working underneath the Bush Administration, how do you feel about the contrast between the Bush Administration and the Trump Administration with escalations in iran . Yeah. The well, i feel quite a contrast with the bush president bush and President Trump on all sorts of grounds. Because theyre completely different human beings. And i have a much higher view of one than the other in that realm. In terms of the strike on iran, i mean, we could have taken out soleimani just like president obama could have taken out soleimani if we wanted to. Im wary about the decision to have done it. I understand, i dont shed any tears for him. He was a really malevolent figure and has figurative american blood and lots of blood including nonamerican blood on his hands, so he was really wan of the nastier actors on the world stage. And so the fact that he is gone, i dont shed any tears for him and i dont think others should. If it turned out, and i just dont know, as im not dont have access to the intelligence, and even as you do as we learned the hard way sometimes intelligence is wrong, was he planning imminent attacks . Thats the phrase that the Trump Administration used, against americans and american targets. If that in fact was true, that could change the calculous. If he was deciding that he was going to escalate these attacks, hit embassies, hit american personnel, you could make the argument that maybe you needed to take him out. How he was taken out, the celebratory nature of it, the way trump embraced it rather than a covert operation, i think there are questions about that. Obviously it escalated the situation massively. Anybody could have figured that out, given how prominent he was in iran. Is it worth it . I suspect not. I think theres several lairs that tough look at it. Theres obviously the kinetic military aspect of it. Do we get into a hot war with iran . We dont know. Is either side going to take the offramp here that the iranians struck us with, you know, yesterday with the in iraq . Apparently no americans were killed, may have been intentional, main not. Is that the end of the story. There are a lot of other things catalyzed. What happens in iraq . There was a nonbinding vote there to get rid of the United States troops. If we were to leave, that would be very much in irans interest, russias interests and not in americas interests. Ive been in conversations with highranking people including who served in the Trump Administration. Theres tremendous amount of concern and worry among certain arab allies who are now lining up to make deals with iran because theyre afraid trump basically said, you fenced off attacks on american interests but not our allies. So theyre worried. Theres just a lot of chaos in the region. There was growing antipathy to the Iranian Regime just a month or two ago, the sanctions were biting. And now of course this has ended up being a galvanizing point for the iranian people around the Iranian Regime. So my hunch is that as this played out, the cost will be higher than the benefits. That was certainly the calculation that both president bush and president obama made. I think they were right. I think you could say that taking out soleimani was morally justified. That doesnt mean it was wise or prudent. Those are two different questions. Finally if i were to design a president to have in the oval office during a period of crisis of any kind, particularly international, im not sure donald trump would be the president i would design. So that concerns me as well. I just think hes volatile. If you talk to people who have worked with him, he doesnt listen to advisers, hes extremely impulsive, and i dont think thats a good quality in a crisis. Agreed. Thank you. Over here. Hi, my name is mary miller, and im from central university. You stated that you and some others have not been dissolutions from trump in their Republican Base on your conservative values. For 2020 if and probably when trump gets the republican nomination, would you still consider voting for him or would you vote for the democratic nominee or go third party and why . Yeah. Well, i said i wasnt disillusion the with politics. I have been disillusioned with donald trump. Maybe not because i didnt have any illusions about him. But i wont vote for him under any circumstances. I didnt vote for him in 2016. I was no fan in Hillary Clinton. In that case i voted for Evan Mcmullin who was running as third party. What will i do in 2020 . Fends on who the democrats nominate. I havent figured that out other than i know i wont vote for trump for a whole variety of reasons. But well just have to see. You know, the way i try and think about this, im certainly not im sure my analysis isnt even perfect in how i think it through, but one has to think first about the good of the country. And theres the realm of policies, then theres the realm of the political and civic culture. Theres the temperament of the person thats president , if you feel safe with him or not. And a psychological and emotional makeup and wellbeing. Theres the future of the Republican Party. If hes reelected, it may be a parenthesis in the Republican Party and politics, become Something Different . If his mode of politics become ratified i think were dealing with something else. I find his nonstop assault on truth and the categories of truth and falsity to be extremely dangerous and harmful and i think theyre having an effect. You know, if it were bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, i am philosophically opposed to them. So it would be hard for me to vote for them and be consistent with my beliefs. So well have to see. I understand the arguments, you know, of i honestly do understand the argument of people who vote for donald trump, who are if youre a person conservative, youre a conservative christian and feel like his policies will do more to advance what you believe is the moral good, economic good of the country, thats a fair and reasonable place to be. Its not where i ended up, but i get that. I think my main criticism of republicans in general and particularly of evangelical christians i must say isnt that they would vote for donald trump. Its that they become his sword and shield, seem incapable of holding two ideas at the same time or at least giving voice to two ideas at the same time, which is we agree with his policies and judges on deregulation obstructions and abortion but we think he is a moral and ethical rack, and that really troubles us, and he acts in ways that are reprehensible and need to be challenged. You cant hold those two ideas at the same time. Theres no trick to that. But republicans and christians in particular arent doing. Theyre not only sotto voce, they will defend him in and in a weird way its slightly amazing to see these people who use morality, moral integrity of president s like a two by four against bill clinton in the late 1990s, many of the very same people are will defend trump no matter what he does. And attack those who deign to criticize him. That double standard, that hypocrisy, i think is the area in which they deserve to be criticized. Ive, frankly, never heard a good response to that criticism. But part of what it indicates i think is the degree of political tribalism, polarization that we have. Its fascinating psychological phenomenon, confirmation, bias, motivational reasoning, which we all suffer from and deal with. Which is this ability that we have as human beings or propensity we have to interpret facts that are favorable to us and wall off facts that are contrary to what we want. Thats always been part of the human condition and always will be. It seems to me that its particularly acute now and when you see somebody like donald trump its in such sharp relief that it really underscores ive said to a number of friends of mine that i think its much more important now to have a good understanding of psychology to understand this political moment than it is to have an understanding of politics. Because i think a lot of whats going on has to be understood through the prism of psychology. Thank you. Yeah, you bet. Hello. Im sarah, and im from elan university. In terms of trumps policies, you mentioned that there are several youre against and some you support. I was wondering which were in each category and why . Yeah. On the plus side, generally his judiciary appointments have been i think solid. Hes outsourced it to the federalist society, which is a group that started i think in the 1980s. And they are judicial intellectuals. And basically theyve got a list of judicial appointments of whom theyre generally very, very well qualified. And trump has taken that list. Im quite certain that he doesnt know the writings of any Supreme Court nominees or his federal judges. But hes doing what hes being told and thats fine. I wish that happened in more areas with him. The judges i think are good. People i trust in the world of economics and business tell me that the deregulation has actually helped a lot of companies, helped the economy grow. So i think that thats that area has been good. Im prolife, and his policies there i think have been good. Tax bill, i was sort of mixed on. But you could argue i think that on balance maybe it was a good thing, but im not certain about that. Downside on the policy, where do i disagree with him . Hes a, as i said, protectionist, and im not. I think protectionism is a bad idea and it can lurch you into some very, very bad economic situations. I think hes removed morality not only as a centerpiece of Foreign Policy but from anything at all. I think the way that he treats dictators is often offensive and weird. I dont know. If you can have a love affair with a foreign leader, i dont know why youd choose kim jongun on any number of grounds but he just seems to be infatuated with whats arguably the most ruthless dictator in the world and, by the way, the chief persecutor of christians in the world. So theres that. He doesnt believe in limited government or the reform of entitlement programs. I think if youre not going to reform entitlement programs, youre not making a serious case for limited government. So i disagree with him there. I think he is making appeals to nativist, appeals, as well. It was his, if you will, trump card during the election. Every time he got into trouble, what did he do . He would point to the other, whether the other were mexicans or muslims. And he played to that. I happen to think that tough you have to disaggregate. Theres undocumented workers and legal immigration. Im certainly sympathetic to the latter. And i felt likely on the former, we needed to find a path to citizenship but not amnesty. I thought that was reasonable then. I think its reasonable now. On a general matter im somebody who has i guess an emotional affinity for illegal immigrants. But i also think on the merits its the right way to go. Also i think you can make adjustments to whos coming in, sort of highskilled workers and whats best for the economy of the country. So thats where i disagree with him. But as i said, my primary objections are not in the realm of policy. Although the separation of children from parents is something that i found deeply offensive. But i think hes psychologically and emotionally unwell generally so, and that worries me. As i said, this assault on truth and reality and the conspiracy mongering i think is really, really bad. And i think hes unfit on all sorts of different levels. Thank you. Uhhuh. And we have come to time for our program today, so thank you so much. You bet. Thank you. Thanks for being here