It announces that ath this time there is an evacuation. Please stay indoors with your windows closed. This is not a community that scares easily. Major floods and hurricane agnes have come here and the town has survived, but for almost a week last month, the people of middletown, pennsylvania, lived in fear of an enemy they couldnt see, hear, or feel. That is from cbs news. The fear is radiation following the meltdown at the Nuclear Generating station. Consider the most Serious Nuclear power accident in the history of the u. S. For the next 90 minutes we will look back at the events that occurred. Eric epstein joins us live. He is the chair of the three mile island alert, which is what . It is a safe energy organization. We were founded in 1977, two years before the accident at three mile island. We are a nuclea Watchdog Group that monitors the three Nuclear Power plants on the susquehanna river. You were there, what do you remember both when the news first broke and as the story continued to unfold in the days and weeks that followed . I think it is interesting. You covered mr. Bradleys comments. We had a response from our family. I was away at college but we had a family furniture store. It survived three floods, a fire, we were hunkered down. We delivered a dinette on saturday, the day after evacuation. Like a lot of folks, there was confusion, anxiety, chaos. The company was providing disinformation and misinformation as you could well tell by the lieutenant governors comments on thursday, the day after the accident. The evacuation was for preschool children and pregnant women. That target population was five thousand. Approximately 144,000 people evacuated. At the time, we werent prepared for an evacuation. Im not sure we could execute one now, i think we have better plans. The relocation centres are right outside of the 10 mile zone. One outside of hersheypark and the other at william penn high school. We called a shadow evacuation, when you declare an evacuation, people leave. They left. A lot of people left not knowing if they were coming back. It was a psychic terror. A lot of people because this is an Agricultural Community stayed to take care of livestock and animals. A lot of people were conflicted. What do i do . This was not the age of 24 7, 365 news cycle, so the big issue at that time was just a lack of trust and what made it more difficult and confusing was the china syndrome had just been released several weeks ago. So folks didnt have a baseline knowledge, some journalists were tasked to go see the china syndrome before covering the story. And on wednesday, things occurred when we heard there was a problem at tmi, we later learned the core melted. We didnt know the damage until 198283, when the temperatures reaches 4800 degrees. There were two prongs to the accident. Folks had to respond based on little to no knowledge in the company didnt help as we found in the utah report, they intentionally misled the governor as to the severity of the accident. When we heard from the cbs report, keep your windows shut. Would that have made any difference at that time based on what they knew and did not know . Again, ed bradley captures the uncertainty and the unpreparedness of the company and the government. I interviewed people on the west shore of the river who were told to go home, there were kids in Elementary School who were told to put a book over their head and hold their breath. These precautionary instructions we got would have little to no impact on mitigating the effects of exposure to radiation. Friday, when the evacuation occurred it was an unreasonably warm day. You just had chaos. People coming to the school to pick up kids. Remember, some people have kids in elementary, middle, and high school, three stops, getting gas, going away not knowing if they are coming back. One of the things we found after the accident was the community suffered from chronic elevated psychological stress. Cooling towers behind us are haunting. From 1979 until 1985, the other plant that wasnt involved, tmi unit 1, was actually shut down for refueling at that time. That plant was shut down. There was a fierce battle of whether we should restart the plant. Peoples responses were mixed and confused. It wasnt helped by the fact that the company misled the governor. And then on sunday, if you recall the event begins on wednesday, president carter came on sunday. I think that calmed a lot of people, but the real hero was the mayor, robert reed. He stayed behind. He just stepped down. Common people had uncommon courage during that time. This community is no exception. Born here, lived here, we are revolutionary era, we are not going anywhere. We survived floods and fires. Unfortunately, a core meltdown is not something you expect to have to survive. Unit 2 was defueled. It hasnt been decontaminated or decommissioned. Only operated for 90 days. This plant was supposed to have operated for 40 years. We still have a high level radiation site on the on the ohio river that may never be cleaned up. In a sense the accident still continues. My guest is eric epstein. We are dividing our phone lines regionally. If you are resident of pennsylvania you can join us by calling in at 202 7488002. What happened 40 years ago . What happened i dont know if you want to call it an accident. An accident is when idea runs in front of a truck and gets hit. This was an anticipated disaster. The relief valve, which opened as it should had indicated on the channels that it closed and it hadnt closed. We had a what was known as a loss of coolant accident. It wasnt until there was a shift change that the valve was closed. We found out through the department of energy years later that temperatures were about 4800 degrees, which was significant and again, a core mely accident which led to the fuel being exposed and interacting with oxygen, which creates hydrogen. That created the Hydrogen Bubble scare. You had the loss of coolant, a lot of us didnt really know what that meant. The fear of the unknown, you have the china syndrome in the background, misinformation, disinformation. Finally, by friday the governor and commissioner agreed to do a precautionary evacuation. The Hydrogen Bubble issue gradually receded and the plant was put into cold shutdown. It took several weeks. One of the things that happened with the loss of trust, this was a conservative republican bible belt area. I was one of the people who thought this was a great thing, a magical technology, too cheap to meter. This was the future. It was hard to believe that not only could it fail but as it was being built we were told it was as likely as a meteor falling from the sky for an accident to happen. Not only did it fail but we were misled. In this area, once you lose trust, it is hard to get back. Lets get to our phone calls. Good morning. I appreciate cspan having this piece on. I really would like to note that while three mile island was absolutely an accident, fuel melt, no substantial fission products were released to the environment. It was all contained as designed. The radiation levels were minor to almost nothing in the area. No one was hurt. No bad Health Effects occurred. That was a test of the designed to absolutely mitigate and contain the worstcase accident. Thank you, don. We will get a response. That is an absurd assertion based on bad science. The design that was breached could have been anticipated. There was a similar incident in 1978, the year before. It had a 10 failure rate, the man is absolutely misinformed. The monitors went off, filters were clogged. The monitors at that time could only absorb lowlevel amounts of radiation. If you look at the dose of the amount of radiation released, which is still controversial because we did not have exact measurements. We are looking at anything from 10 million to 200 million curies. If you look at the Health Studies beginning with columbia, pittsburgh, north carolina, the health study last year which found increased Thyroid Cancer at penn state. The facts on the ground to demonstrate people were harmed by three mile island. There were huge releases of radiation. There was at least four different surveys taken of people who lived in the nexus of the past way pathway of radiation exposure. Folks around here dont lie. They reported sunburn, i. E. Rotation, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, all consistent with radiation exposure. We believe strongly that it is probably closer to 100 million. That debate has kind of been settled. If nothing really was released you would have to ask the company why they settled almost in excess of 100 million. In this country, money seems to speak. Eric, physically, geographically, where are you located . Three mile island is interesting, it is actually 2. 2 miles. We are the closest nuclear airport Nuclear Power plant to an airport. Ironically you cant fly over disneyland but you can fly over three mile island. We are about 12 miles from the capital and close to the amish to the east. It is very difficult to Contact People who dont have a phone to evacuate, we are close to the amish. To the west is york county. This was going to be an energy park. You had three mile island behind us, you had bruno island, a coal plant, to the west, you had a hydrodam, and if you go to the Community Across from us, there is a plaque that says this is the future, atomic power, coal, small hydro. The was great and still is great waterskiing and fishing. I came down here to recreate as did everybody. I was pronuclear and things changed. You are in the heartland of conservative republican bible belt pennsylvania. Lets go to annie joining us from north carolina. I have a comment to make about your 30 day calling rule. As my soon to be 89yearold mother would say, i have a bone to pick with you. You have a caller who calls in from South Carolina named steve. He has a distinctive voice and has called in several times. He has called them four times. I have left comments a few times because i recognize his voice. At least eat up times. I recognize his foes. How are you doing . I recognize his voice. Duly noted. We will do our best to make sure steve does not get through. I am really sick of it. I was 24 years old when that happened when when the happen, three mile island happened. Were decisions made i heard it is not safe to buy chocolate from the area because of fallout . Thank you for your time. But the really good question. This is an area where we were asking where are we . This is an area where people came to visit. We are right next to the amish. Lancaster county. People came here for hershey and the gettysburg battlefield. We were within a whiff of losing all of that. This was a place he wanted to go to. Hershey, lancaster, gettysburg. After the accident we became a pariah. Hershey is interesting because hershey was stopped buying milk. They froze it. The halflife is about eight days. They froze it for ninety and used it again. That was one of the push backs you got. Tourism went down. People did not want to come to the area. So you still have hershey park, Hershey Chocolate. They did purchase milk, they froze it and use it later. Its a legitimate issue. Being born and raised there, i love living here, so i feel fortunate to live so close to hershey and lancaster and gettysburg. I encourage people to come here. I know theres a certain amount of dark tourism. People like to come snap pictures of tmi. But if i can put a plug in i still think Hershey Chocolate is the superior product. We will go to bonnie and lancaster, pennsylvania. Good morning. Good morning. What do you want to know . I remember my brother brough my parents through, he was clutching his coin collection. I thought he was going to pass out. I lost two classmates. They said they believed, downwind they lived in bainbridge they died from cancer, and they think it was tmi. My other remembered i guess they took a barge across. My father was born in 1916. But it was a cornfield. Number four, tmi is called three mile island because it is three miles from the center of middletown. Thank you. I have heard that before, three mile island it had a host of names prior to this honestly. She raises a good issue. One of the things i would encourage people to do is go to the tmi survivors facebook. There are members that discuss the Health Effects they had. We did surveys. The surveys were done in newberry township. Were still doing surveys. You can get them online at tmia. Com. In the last years, they did a study that indicated an increase in Thyroid Cancer for folks living in three mile island. They will expand that study, continue to look at it. Unfortunately, three mile island does not have a cancer registry for its workers unlike the department of defense where we can track those. Unfortunately pennsylvania no longer treks the incident. Its kind of up to the citizens. I encourage people to go to facebook or the webpage. You mentioned the film the china syndrome which was released a couple weeks before the three mile island accident. Heres a trailer from the 1979 movie. The china syndrome. Its about people people people who lie. And people faced with the admits only truth. Like kimberly wells, a Television Reporter they to smile, not to think. A veterinarian who makes house calls on sick fish. Or is it aquarium calls . Richard adams, the cameramen who never learned to play the rules. Jack goodell, an engineer who knows too much to tell the truth. That is why we have defense in depths. And cares too much to lie. It begins with a tremor in a Nuclear Power plant. Where it ends lies with three people. Jane fonda. Jack lemmon. Michael douglas. The china syndrome that trailer from the china syndrome. Put that into perspective. I would extract the quote safety in depth. That used to be the mantra. Redundancy systems. We basically have seen the rnc turn into a laissezfaire regulatory body. That happened in 1999. I think were falling back to where we were in 1979. I do not see safety in depth anymore. We see older players, aging plants. They were refueling every 12 months, then 18, now every two years. The other thing that was chilling about the china syndrome, is the spokesperson was eerily reminiscent of jack erbine, the spokesperson for metropolitan edison at the time, which only compounded the fear and anxiety. And we listen to barbara joining us from new jersey. Good morning. Barbara, are you with us . We will try more time for barbara in new jersey. We lost that call. So, as you look back 40 years ago and get a sense of how the story unfolded, no social media, no cable. What were people telling you . What were they telling you in the spring and summer of 1979 . Its interesting because people opposed to Nuclear Power at the time were marginalized and on the french. There is a critical plant that was shut down because of steam generator problems, similar to tmi, which had steam generator problems. The information that got out remember you uad rotary phones, or you had to call collect. It was very difficult to communicate. There are networks. People were basically observing what workers were doing. If workers were sending their families away, they went away. Truck drivers were communicating through cb, but if your focus was on the information coming from the company, youre confused. People in the matrix visions people had to make decisions on the run. People had high anxiety levels. It was a different time. I do not know if having all of those outlets or portals of communication are better now. I am not sure information gets vetted properly. Its a difficult time in terms of communication. At the time, not many sciences and environmental reporters. People with different skill sets started to trickle in, but folks in the media trying to get information, trying to get to the truth did not have the background that would be helpful. Is the plant in any was operational today . No, its done. As part of the agreement we executed in 1993, it will never operate again. The problem is you can call it whatever you want. Its abandoned. In the 1990s, we had over 1500 workers defuelling the plant. We extracted most of the fuel. That fuel was loaded and taken to idaho. The problem with tmi 2, there was no decommissioning fund. It cost 700 million to build. The people in this area have spent 3 billion for a plant that operated 90 days. The irony is people in the area never got the energy. The people who owned and operated company were based in new jersey. Tmi 2 is not going to operate. We have not had a human in the basement for 40 years. The susquehanna river empties into the chesapeake bay. Not a great scenario. Tmi 1 has been operating since 1974, may be shut down. Its an older plant, its lost money. Theres talk of bailing it out. But to my earlier point, when this plant was sold, it had hundred employees. The amount of tax the company pays has decreased. Folks need to know an action that began in 1979, 1979 in the 20th century may not be over until the 22nd century. Ron in san antonio, texas, good morning. Hi, thank you for all of the information you have given. Its 40 years ago, but it is that yesterday in some aspects. Decommissioning how much will that cost . Is there any actual nrc plant to do it . Or just safe store for the next 50 years . The nrc offers three options, decon, the immediate decommissioning, which is the protocol the industry does now. Im a little concerned about that. A third party comes onsite because and the third option, which i think would be a horrible option entombement, you entomb the reactor. Tmi 2, when it came on monday mother was no decommissioning fund. The industry and the government had no vision how they would clean these plants up. They estimate 1. 2 billion. Remember ratepayers paid to build the plant. Ratepayers paid to fuel the player. And ratepayers will pay for the decommissioning. Tmi 1 has a decommissioning fund, but as a result of deregulation they cany go back to the ratepayers. Tmi 1 is likely to be decon, immediately decommission. Tmi 2 i dont know. It will probably make history again because they may have to find a fourth way to decommission the plant. Its owned by a Different Company so its s really bizarre scenario where one plant may be decommissioned and this one may not. Owned by two different owners. This plant has 520 employees, this plant has zero. Our last call from philadelphia. Carol, good morning. Hi. Im originally from pittsburgh. I have been to that area a few times. The last time i stayed in a hotel in the middleton area. I spoke to a woman who said they nearly averted an accident there that week and it was in the local papers. Your guest has been excellent in talking about the local industry, that he mentioned something about the steam release system and would that contribute to nearaccidents and what are they doing to keep track of near accidents . Carol, thank you. We have them looking at the scene behind you and we have been looking at the steam release today as well, correct . Yes, unit one. Unit two is obviously down. Obviously down. It caught on fire a few times more in the 1990s. The cooling tower is basically a nesting ground for swallows. The problem its a highlevel radioactive waste site. Unit one has 200 metric tons of highlevel radioactive waste. Very interesting because this is one of the last plants the caller was talking about safety let me dovetail to saying say there are this is a waste product that has to be monitored for 500 years. This is a funeral where the paul there were pallbearer has to stand in place for 500 years. Even if this plant shuts down it wont be until 2022 until we construct a dry cast. So in terms of incidents and accidents i would take the time to say if you live near a Nuclear Reactor what we should be doing is finding a way to get rid of the radioactive waste. I dont know anybody that would buy a house with a toilet that led into the front yard and the contracter would say ill come back 40 or 50 years later. The toilet is there, the front yard is there, the waste is here. Where is it going to go . Eric epstein, joining us from pennsylvania, the chair of the three mile island alert. Thank you for being with us. Were going to continue our look at the mile island. 1979. It was the first step in a Nuclear Nightmare as far as we know at this hour no worse than that. But a Government Official said that a breakdown in a power plant in pennsylvania today is probably the worst nuclear