Transcripts For CSPAN3 Sandra Day OConnor - First Woman On Supreme Court 20240713

Of the United States of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. John thank you, please be seated. In the fall of 1988, when president Ronald Reagan broke ground at the site of his future president ial library, im not sure he could have imagined that his foundation, the one bearing his name, would one day also be operating a robust institute in washington, d. C. , one just steps from the white house he would soon leave behind for his beloved homeland ranch in the west. However, i do know that todays celebration honoring Justice Sandra day oconnor is exactly the type of gathering in his name that he envisioned. History intrinsically links president reagan and Justice Oconnor, and it is an honor and a privilege for the Reagan Foundation and institute to host this forum. Before we begin our celebration, i would like to express our gratitude to our friends in the room who still carry the flame of our 40th president , and those who share a deep love and admiration for our first woman on the Supreme Court. First, thanks to the Oconnor Family for joining us on this historic day. Thanks as well to our partners who share in our Civic Mission and who have helped us craft our agenda for this afternoon, npr, the aspen institute, Arizona State institute Sandra Day Oconnor law school, the Supreme Court and the library of congress. [applause] john the force behind todays event is a longtime member of the Reagan Foundations board of trustees, a partner at gibson, dunn and crutcher, ted olson. One of our nations premier appellate and Supreme Court advocates, ted served as solicitor general of the u. S. From 20012004. Prior to that he served as assistant attorney general and the office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department during the Reagan Administration from 19811984, and as private counsel to president reagan during his second term. Teds commitment to the principles of equality, liberty and justice not only served president reagan, but also helped him carry his legacy into the 21st century. It is his leadership that led to todays worthy celebration of Justice Oconnor. Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming to the stage mr. Ted olson. [applause] ted thank you, john. And thank everyone of you for being here. Everyone that has been involved in this is very, very excited, and we are full of anticipation. It is an honor to be with you 38 years to the day after Sandra Day Oconnor took her seat as the first woman to serve on the Supreme Court of the United States. Our constitution was adopted on september 17, 1787. The government had created, including the Supreme Court, began functioning in 1789. Nearly 200 years later, on this date in 1981, Justice Sandra day oconnor became the 102nd and first female justice. Reflect on that for a moment. It took us, our nation and people, nearly two centuries to put the first woman on the United States Supreme Court. I was privileged to be in court that day. President reagan was there, members of the cabinet, senators, representatives, the justices, and members of the press and public watched as the Court Received from the attorney general, the commission signed by president reagan, and the oath of office was administered by the chief justice. And then Justice Oconnor was escorted to the bench and took her seat. It was a very special, emotional moment, and i feel emotion talking about it, but much too long in coming. Justice oconnor served for 25 years on the Supreme Court with brilliance, a keen understanding of the constitution and of the American People, compassion, insight, wisdom, grace and dignity. She had spent her early years on a 198,000 acre cattle ranch in arizona. She graduated at the top of her staff at Stanford Law School. The first majority leader of a state senate and she was the last justice, i believe this is correct, to serve in elected office and as a state Appeals Court judge. As a justice, she had a sharp, incisive sense of humor, instinct for the evan of point points in cases that came before her, and a passion for preparation. Hers was often the first question asked during oral argument. I had the privilege of arguing a number of cases before her, and i was very careful every time to try to be ready for that first question. Woe to the lawyer who was not prepared, fumbled, or responded with evasion. It did not work. She zeroed in like a laser beam, and you did not get away. About 11 months ago, Justice Oconnor wrote to the American People informing us of the progression of dementia, and that she had to step back from public life. It was devastating to read that this terrible disease was robbing her and robbing us of that unstoppable mind. 25 years ago, president reagan wrote to the American People in much the same way. He announced that he was beginning what he called, the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. Justice oconnor is on that same, tragic, sunset journey, which is why we at the Reagan Institute were moved to organize a celebration of her legacy. How we wish she were here, but how grateful we are that she was a brilliant, perfect pioneer on our highest court, and that we can celebrate her while she still enjoys the company of family back home in arizona, a place where the sunsets are among the most beautiful in the world. Along with other things to celebrate, we honor her as a Bridge Builder, an idea she reflected on in a stanford 2004 commencement address, just days after the passing of president reagan. She told the students that one of the most important bridges that Ronald Reagan built was a bridge to equality, one that made it possible for a wide range of willing americans to build their own bridges as public servants. She, of course, was referring in part to her own nomination. Today, we are fortunate to welcome many of the people who have crossed that bridge that Justice Oconnor built throughout her career, from former clerks to sitting justices of the United States Supreme Court, and many others. They will tell us about who this incredible woman was, how she was raised on that ranch in arizona, how she developed into the ideal jurisprudential pioneer to be the first of her gender to sit on the Supreme Court, what it was like for her to surmount the barriers she so gracefully overcame and what she has done for america, the constitution, and the American People. So i welcome you to this celebration and thank our outstanding moderators and speakers. This will be a lovely, happy day. Thank you. [applause] ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a Bridge Builder and trailblazer, celebrating Justice Sandra day oconnor. Please welcome the executive director of the Ronald Reagan president ial foundation and institute, mr. John heibusch. [indiscernible] [laughter] [applause] [indiscernible] the first panel, i just want to say i covered the court. [booing [indiscernible] i started covering the court in 1999, so i had the joy and privilege of covering Sandra Day Oconnors time on the court. To my far left is evan thomas, author of 10 books including a biography of Sandra Day Oconnor. To his immediate right, jay oconnor, on the board of the civics project Justice Oconnor, transformational civics project she brought to children in this country, and to my immediate left, needing no introduction, edwin meese iii, he served as attorney general of the u. S. From 19851988. Please join me in welcoming this extraordinary panel. [applause] i have the absolute joy of setting the table for the rest of the day and getting a sense of what it was like through the early arc of Justice Oconnors career, which brought her to the attention of president reagan, and then the world. We are going to try to break it down for you in the coming hour, and start by talking about her outstanding biography in arizona, her time on the Arizona State legislature, and we will close with a conversation about her confirmation. I just want to say as a point of personal privilege, and again because it is the theme of this particular panel, i started Stanford Law School in the fall of 1992, and i can say without a doubt, i would not have gone to law school but for knowing that Sandra Day Oconnor had gone before me. And i see it not because my legal career is terribly interesting or important, but because i really wonder often if Justice Oconnor knows how many tens and thousands of young women took steps they would not have otherwise done but for her leadership and modeling. So its a particular honor to be in this conversation today. Start so i want to start at the lazy b, the ranch where it all started. And Justice Oconnor so often says she is such a creature of that upbringing at the lazy b ranch. I wonder, evan, as the biography, if you could set the table for us a little bit. Give us a sense of how that upbringing, weve all heard some of the stories, but that upbringing at the lazy b reflects on the person that Sandra Day Oconnor becomes. Mr. Thomas the lazy b is enormous. 160,000 acres. Took a man on horseback a whole day to ride across it. A world unto itself. Austere, beautiful. 2000 cows. And the day family. Mr. Day. Sandra day oconnor said we called it our own country. The king of this country was mr. Day, who was a magnificent man. A great, more than a cowboy, he was a manager of cowboys. But a guy who could fix anything, handle anything, deal with anything and he taught selfreliance to his daughter and to anybody who was around him. And the story she liked to tell, sandra liked to tell, was when sandra day was 15, one of her jobs was to take lunch to the roundup which was way across the prairie. She got up at 5 00 a. M. And cooked the roast, the cake, and she loaded up the truck. As she headed out there she had a flat tire. She is a slight girl. She had to jump on the jack to change the tire. It took an hour. She got there and her father looked at her and said, you are late. She said, dad, i had a flat tire. He said, next time leave earlier. That was a story she told her clerks. The message was pretty clear, no excuses. Get it done. So obviously mr. Day had a huge influence on her and he was a loving, powerful father. Mr. Day was also, could be an intimidating guy. Sandras mother was maybe even more important because mrs. Day was a elegant woman, out on this dusty ranch, wore dresses, subscribed to vogue. Wore hose and nice shoes. And mr. Day could be a little tough on her in the evening, could be a little bit of a bully. And the way she dealt with him was not by being submissive and not by rolling over but also not by getting into stupid fights. And she had a way, a graceful way of finessing things and walking away from stupid fights, of knowing when to engage and when not to. And sandra watched her mother and father and i think that was an incredibly valuable lesson for her on how to deal with difficult situations. When people do not always get along. But when not to take the bait. That was a big thing for her. I wonder, jay, if you want to amplify a little bit the ways in which she was just entirely a product of that biographical setting, that she really was in some sense quintessentially, she really, right i think throughout played so deeply to this persona she had of just being utterly independent, someone for whom i think as evan said was very feminine but also extremely tough. And not apt to be intimidated by anyone. Had she been born in connecticut, would she have been a completely different person . Jay i think she would have been. She herself saw the lazy b as foundational to who she was. She loved the lazy b. She ended up as a schoolgirl, the closest town 30 miles away wasnt a great school. So, her parents decided we have got to send her away to school and she went to school in el paso, texas, with her grandmother and aunt. She stayed with them and she went to school with her cousin. And she missed the ranch terribly. Would always love spending time there. It was foundational to who she thought herself as. And the ranch, youre so, help is 30 miles away and even in the town they probably do not have the parts you need. So problems will happen on the ranch. Things break. Problems happen. And so what she learned, as evan described already, is that when problems happen, you have to deal with them in a very pragmatic way. You cannot rely on some expert to save the day because that might be way too long. You cant wait for weeks for some expert. You have to resolve it with just the people at the ranch. You had to fix things yourself. If you are out alone, you have to fix things by yourself. I think that was foundational to her persona. She had a real sense of that. The other part, she grew up in the depression years. You know, times were thin. You never throw anything away. You appreciate everything you have. So she was definitely a product of her generation and of her environment. I wonder if you could take us fairly quickly through the educational piece of this, because that again, the notion she was going to law school is at some level so internalized, but it was incredibly improbable. Mr. Thomas she went to stanford in 1946 with a lot of veterans. Happy guys in bomber jackets, who were glad to be alive. She loved stanford. She said in a letter home, it is utopia. Because they have this wonderful course there called western civilization. I read her final exam when she was a 17yearold freshman and it is a brilliant exegesis on madison and jefferson, and you can see her appreciation of the rule of a law as a 17yearold. Talk about foundations. She got that. She was very independentminded. At stanford, you could go to law school after three years. If you had a b plus average, which she did, she had great grades. She was very selfreliant. The story i always remember was that she, theres a parking lot there and she went out and her dad gave her car. Chrysler. She went out and painted a parking space for herself. [laughter] her parking space. She went to the law school. She was one of five women in her class of law review. 150. She applied to 40 law firms in los angeles and san francisco. She got one interview. With gibson, dunn and crutcher. And they asked her how well did you type . She said, soso. She loved to tell that story. She was never bitter about it. She said, didnt make it in the private sector so she went to a local d. A. She said, i would like to work for you. He said, i dont have money to hire you. She said, i will do it for free. He said, i dont have a place for you. She said, i will work off your secretarys desk, and she did. She mastered that. Had a brief sojourn in the private sector in phoenix a couple of years later, but, you know, she, ok, she cant make it in the private sector. The Public Sector worked well for her. I have to turn this over to general meese, who told me something that cracked me up. About what would have happened had gibson, dunn and crutcher, given her job . Meese if they had given her job she deserved, she probably would be now a retired lawyer from gibson and crutcher, living out her retirement and never would have achieved the remarkable position she did on the Supreme Court. That was a bracing reminder to me of why that story works out in the end, because ive generally told it in a much more grumpy fashion until you corrected me. Im going to ask evan to do one more thing, which is you are going to have to talk about the relationship between Sandra Day Oconnor and chief Justice William h. Rehnquist, because that was an intriguing part of your research. My wife and i had access to the Oconnor Family, to her papers and letters, and we were looking for love letters because john oconnor and Sandra Oconnor had a great marriage, a true, lifelong loving romance. We were going to the papers and there are not any love letters. We went into her chambers at the Supreme Court and her secretary took us down to a storage closet. And there was a box marked correspondence. I asked, can we look in there . He said, ok. And there were the love letters between john and sandra in the book. But there were also 14 love letters from William Rehnquist to sandra day. William rehnquist and sandra day were classmates. He was probably number one in the class. They did not include class rank, but he was acknowledged. They went out first year. The story they told always was, we went to the movies a few times. It was actually a little bit more than that. Double feature. [laughter] mr. Thomas and, in bill rehquists third year, he got a job as a Supreme Court clerk with Justice Stevens, justice jackson. And he was lonely. He started writing to sandra and remembering their romance. About letter seven, he said, sandy, will you marry me . When i pulled that letter out of the box, i gave a little yelp. [laughter] because they hadnt told anybody. They hadnt told their own families. I love this, justice blackmun, when he sat next to Justice Rehnquist when sandra came in the court, blackmun turned to Justice Rehnquist and said, no fooling around. [laughter] but basically nobody knew. And the sweet thing about this is they ended up having a great friendship. Yes, sandra turned him down. She strung him along for a little while, but she did turn him down in a gentle way. They formed a real friendship. They both married the loves of their lives. And they had a quiet but real friendship at the court. That worked out very well. Justice rehnquist quietly lobbied the Reagan Administration or at least the attorney general to put her on the court. I feel i need to give jay an opportunity to respond if he wants to respond. How was it find out that your mom had a love letter from Justice Rehnquist . Jay well, it was a surprise. Im sure my dad knew more about the relationship. Im sure that wasnt something she would have hidden from my dad, but she never disclosed it to her three sons. So evan called up and said, i found some interesting letters. Listen of this. So, we were definitely surprised. She had handled that very quietly. And jay, i think i want to stay with you. Jay but i want to say, the thing that was interesting to us is what we had seen with, uh, chief justice with her relationship with the rehnquist family is they were devoted friends for such a long time. And throughout their, before their tenure on the court, after what evan talked about happened, his family traveled with my moms family on some trips. So they had a basis for a longstanding friendship that endured throughout the time on the court and later on. They spent a lot of time together with one anothers families in d. C. And socialized together. So, there was a really wonderful, initially interesting relationship that turned into a wonderful professional relationship and a close friendship over the years. I know this is not the panel where we will talk about doctrine, but i think this could be the panel where we talk about work ethic. Just as we turn to her time in the Arizona Legislature, i wonder if you could just talk to the extent that you have recollections of what it was like to be raised by someone who by every account was a juggernaut, was just nonstop energizer bunny, go, go, go. I remember the first stories i heard about her was having kids in strollers running around doing legal work and doing political work. Thats all true, right . Jay absolutely. She is a force of nature, no doubt. So, she was in arizona. She worked in all three branches of government. She was clearly the best known woman in the state of arizona in the government. And started off in the attorney generals office. Became the majority leader of the Arizona State senate, was the first woman in the country to hold that position. And then went on to become a state court judge. But we knew her as mom. And the famous line is she would have these long work sessions at the, at the state senate and one of her colleagues said with Sandra Day Oconnor there is no miller time. What he meant, she would go from long hours and do one thing and she was constantly in motion. Constantly doing things. She would come home from a very demanding job, and she ran the family. She was responsible for overseeing the household and getting our dinner done. And organizing our camps and our activities and her way when she got home, she did not sit down and hang out. She would go home and be productive. Her way of relaxing was by going and playing on the weekends two or three sets of tennis and then around of 18 holes of golf. We were exhausted. We never got rest until she went off to washington, thank god. [laughter] i am exhausted just by hearing that account. But i wonder, evan, would you amplify a little bit and then i am going to ask general meese the same question, but that time on the Arizona Legislature was absolutely formative. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how she got herself there but help us understand what that did to help vault her into what would become the next thing. Mr. Thomas there are a couple of stories about her in the legislature that are revealing. One is that she had to deal with, this is an arizona legislator in 1970. There was a lot of drinking, men misbehaving and she had to deal with that. She was the majority leader. First woman ever to be the majority leader of a state senate. To get the budget passed, she had to deal with the House Appropriations committee chairman. His name was tom goodwin. Tom goodwin was a drunk, a drunk by 10 00 a. M. Drunk, and was just impossible to deal with. She finally called him on his drinking. He looked at her and said if you were a man, i would punch you in the nose. She said, if you were a man, you could. [laughter] i like to tell that story. Its a one off. She did not go around having confrontations, putting down men. That is a funny story, but thats pretty singular. Far more often, she just learned not to be baited, not to take the bait, not to get into stupid fights, to get to the point. She was very efficient. Had a thick skin. And she was very politically shrewd. This second story i think is very revealing. The equal rights amendment in 1972 was, for a while almost noncontroversial. It was in the republican platform and the democratic platform in 1968. But by the early to mid 1970s, it had become controversial. And it was making its way to the states, ratified in many states, but Phyllis Schlafly was running a campaign against it, a very effective campaign. And so, it comes to arizona. Majority leader oconnor introduces the e. R. A. To the Arizona Legislature, introduces it. And then lets it die in committee. The activists were furious at her. They betrayed her. What the hell are you doing . You are the majority leader. And she just kept quiet. What was really going on here . She realized it couldnt pass. It was not going to pass the arizona legislator. So why make a big, emotional, moralistic virtue signaling show when something is not going to pass . Instead, she use her powers to amend every single law in the state of arizona that discriminated against women. There were many of them. About owning credit cards, owning property. Arizona law in 1970, the eight hour work week was very discriminatory to women. She had a list. We found it in her papers. She made a list of all of the laws. One by one. Some in short measures and some in full measure. She did what she could. She achieved what she could in the state and let the other thing pass on. I love that story, because i think it is such a quintessentially pragmatic thing to do. And i think that, for me, that was such a stunning revelation about you dont always know what you dont know. I wonder, if you could answer a version of the same question. When we spoke on the phone to prepare for this, you noted and i noted that she was the last person to have served in a legislature. We have not had anyone subsequently who brings that skill set to the court. I wonder if you could talk a little, i know you got to know her afterwards, but could you talk about some of the skills she took away from that time, and the ways in which it became applicable in her later life . In other words, i want you to explain why it is important to have former legislators on the Supreme Court. Mr. Meese theres two things. One was her personal relationships. We learned those, being in a governmental body, people who all have very strong egos, the most charitable way of putting it. There is a way of getting along with those people, making progress and getting things done. I think she had that from an early stage. She certainly, in her legislative work, was able to work well with people. She had that sense of priorities that evan mentioned. She understood what was important and what wasnt important. Those qualities also served her very well when she got on the Appellate Court in arizona and ultimately the Supreme Court. That experience was part of her formative years that made her such an important person and an effective person. There is one other thing that is kind of interesting. Evan mentioned she had a short time in private practice. I didnt find out until much later that the person that she had the private Practice Partnership with, tom tobin, was the brother of my law partner. Quite a ways away in san diego, where i was practicing law at about i guess the same time. I never had the chance to meet her then. But it was interesting. I think probably you can say that she, as implied by both speakers, that she learned a lot from every experience she had and utilized those qualities when she came and culminated in a very effective stint on the Supreme Court. Dahlia i want to get to the confirmation process, but i want to move back to jay. One of the things i pulled from evans book and in this conversation, it is sometimes hard to reconcile these two people we are hearing about, one who sort of spoke the truth, was not one to hide her thoughts. Time and time again, certainly by the time she was on the court, she was pretty plain, including with oral advocates. She called it like she saw it. And yet were hearing about somebody who was very canny and savvy and political. Im having trouble squaring the truthteller oconnor with the one who was a very deft reader of people and knew how not to get in fights. I think i also want you to take a run at squaring the other thing that i think evan said, shes a deeply feminine woman. She came across at her confirmation hearing. She was not in any way trying to be a man in a mans world. But yet she was incredibly effective in a mans world. That was an enormous compound question. [laughter] you can choose to ignore parts one or two. But can you flesh out some of those contradictions . Jay on your latter question, sort of her approach as a woman, when at the time she was, you know, before being on the court, by the time she was nominated on the court, there were not as many example figures, Women Leaders in politics and not in the judiciary. There were none of those. It was really sort of a different time, and it was a real transition for the country where women had played very traditional roles. You fastforward to today, and theres a very different view towards women and womens issues and so forth. Evan framed her in his book as a real bridge from the traditional role of the woman to the modern era. I think that was an apt description. She was very effective in her professional relationships and social relationships. In dealing with difficult issues, but doing it in her own way. And she did not consider herself a feminist. She was not strident, outspoken on womens issues. But she felt very strongly on the importance of more equal representation and rights for women and her approach was very much to overcome the obstacles and lead by example. Her approach was not to complain about things. Her approach was to try to take pragmatic action with respect to her own career and respect to the things she was dealing with. I think that was her real approach there. Mr. Thomas one thought. Yes, she could be direct. She was scary to journalists. When i was a journalist, i know i was scared of her. She had these brilliant eyes that she sort of weaponized. I ran into an author who said to one of her clerks she had beams of fire. She could just look and bore a hole through you. But she had great political skills. And one thing i noticed, what her clerks and friends mentioned, she was not a gossip. In washington, it is not easy to be powerful, or to be part of the washington swirl. And she loved the social life. She was out there all the time. It is difficult to do that. It is even difficult to be a Supreme Court justice and not to gossip, and she just didnt. She could have blunt opinions, but she would not gossip. That made her much more effective. And that, it took that selfdiscipline she had, and when she caught her clerks gossiping, and we will have clerks here later, and they can speak to this, but she didnt like it. They were badmouthing the justices the from other chambers and spreading wicked stories. She did not want to hear about it. That gave her a kind of a power, that selfdiscipline gave her power. Jay and even at home, she made a practice of not trashing colleagues, not trashing other people with whom she interacted. She would let us know what was going on. How she felt about things. But she was very i think fair and generous to other people and was not highly mr. Thomas scott told me. Her older son scott said there are three rules on the household. Be home by 6 00 p. M. Dont speak ill of others and dont hit your brother. [laughter] jay she had a little more challenge with the last one. [laughter] dahlia so this brings us to general meese. You will have to tell us how this person we have painted comes into the national limelight. So, we know president reagan makes a Campaign Promise. Hes going to a tap a woman. Can you help us understand what is going on behind the scenes at the white house . How is this woman, who still is maybe not the most prominent woman on a court, how she becomes the Sandra Day Oconnor that we all know . Mr. Meese well, it started because of what was mentioned here. This time, by this time, of course, the korean war is over. Were in a time of relative peace, a lot of progress economically and things were going forward. There were economic problems in the country and so on, but this was the time when women were actually starting to achieve things which had not really happened yet in the legal profession, as was mentioned earlier here. There was in her class, i think five women. And in my class, it was 58. And was about, i think there were six. The most interestingly we started with 150 men and six women. We graduated 80 men and two women. Not too many people made it through it all. It was very difficult for women, but women were starting to achieve positions in business and some of the other professions. And starting to, a few in law practice. So, for that reason, this becomes an issue in 1980 during the campaign. It probably also was in 1976, but particularly in 1980. By that time, women had advanced considerably over that 20year period. So the question was raised a lot of times. Ronald reagan didnt actually promise to appoint a woman, but he said he would certainly like to appoint a woman, and one of the reasons he had to be a little careful was that he didnt have that many women with long experience, who were in the group you would normally select justices from. And so, but he was very interested in that. That was a consideration. John was very helpful to me, going back into the archives. There were not a lot of memos prior to the appointment of Justice Oconnor, but there was at least one or two from people in the white house staff, who were letting him know this would be a very good thing to do. Thats why he asked bill smith, the attorney general at the time, to go and, he wanted to have a selection of people, highly qualified lawyers and judges from other benches, but he wanted to be sure that there were women among them. And so, when they came to him and the list, it was narrowed down after a lot of work was done at the department of justice. If i remember correctly, out of a group of eight or 10 in the first major cut he made, they were i believe two women, and ultimately as he went through, he had decided Sandra Day Oconnor was the one he wanted, had more vetting of her. I think that the things we heard today already, what he had heard about her. The fact she had been in the legislature. He particularly think thought it was important that a judge had legislative experience. And understood what it was to be a legislator, so they were not making decisions in just a vacuum. The fact that she had had that experience, in the legislature, understood what making law is, something judges are not supposed to do. But understands how the representation of the people works into the law themselves so they would have an appreciation of what their job was to do in interpreting the law. So all of these things. But i think the history we heard today about her early life, the fact she worked on a ranch, i cannot help but think it became a major factor in Ronald Reagan thinking very highly of her. [laughter] dahlia evan, i guess i want to ask you to amplify that. What was the, what was the secret sauce that she brought to, to, the selection process, and what is it that president reagan responded to . Mr. Thomas i spoke to ken starr, who was attorney general William French smiths special assistant. He wrote a memo. A contemporaneous memo that he gave me. From the point of view of the attorney generals office, they asked president reagan in october 1980 and said one of the first appointments would be a woman. In the attorney generals office, they thought that was a political promise. Reagan at the time was down 10 points in illinois with women. They did not take it seriously. They thought they would get bob bork. Somebody to push back. The warren court was deemed to have gone too far and one thing Ronald Reagan was going to do was appoint justices that will push the pendulum back a little bit. So, in the office of the attorney general the thought was great, we will get bork or somebody like that. But the attorney general came to them and said, no. The president says, i want a woman. Unless you really cant find one, we are going to have a woman. The problem was that, although society was moving, the law was still very male in 1980. Out of 600 federal judges, only eight were women and most of them were liberal democrats. There was maybe one other, cornelia kennedy, a court of appeals judge, who was qualified on paper but was not deemed to be the kind of personality that would relate to Ronald Reagan. And so, very quickly, justice, judge then, Arizona Court of appeals judge oconnor rose to the top of the pile. Even though she was a state court judge with no federal constitutional experience. She rose to the top of the pile because bill rehnquist was pushing for her. Because the chief justice of the United States, berger, had met and liked her, was pushing for her through fred fielding. And there were other people, goldwater gets in the act later. Some other people. So she had a backing. And actually, only two judges were even interviewed. Cornelia kennedy and Justice Oconnor. James a. Baker, the president s chief of staff, said the only really serious one was oconnor. And at the end of the interview, both ken starr and john rose went down to phoenix to your house, and 100 degree heat. She made us salmon mousse. [laughter] shaking their head. And she passed her little oral quiz with flying colors. And, you know, and then, you know, she was it. She was going to be the nominee. We will get to this, there was a little kerfuffle over her nomination, which we can talk about. But thats pretty much what happened as far as i know from the memo ken starr wrote. Dahlia first, i think i want to say something, because what you are saying does gel so importantly with the story that Justice Ginsburg always tells. I know she is speaking later. But she is always at great pains to talk about the men who supported and allied themselves and helped her. Just an important piece of this, you know, when he get on our sort of girl power soapboxes about the first justice, to really understand that without having male allies, which Justice Oconnor had extraordinary friendships and relationships with men who were really willing to go to bat for her. I think they are an unsung part of the story. But now i just want to ask jay. It is becoming manifest in your family that this is coming. Salmon mousse notwithstanding, what was it like realizing you were just about to barrel into the biggest thing that could ever happen to anyone . Jay it went in phases. When the seat opened up, the Campaign Promise had been made before and the seat opens up and then the discussion starts happening. It started getting in the public, speculation happening about who the candidates would be. Both arizona senators at the time, Barry Goldwater and dennis, who was a democrat, both suggested her and said she would be a fantastic candidate. Her name was out there as a woman who might fit. At that point, the family thought the Supreme Court was so few Seats Available that come up. The odds are long. All of us, including my mom, thought the odds of being a serious candidate were low. But as things went on, there was a confluence of so many people independently suggesting her that she became a serious candidate. And the Interview Team came out to arizona as evan explained. My dad ended up walking them out of their car to see them off, and asked the question. Said, let me ask you a question. You do not have to answer this. How many other people are you having conversations with like this . They said, this is the only one. So at that point they realized, ok, this is serious. [laughter] so, they shared that with the family. Oh, my goodness. This really might happen. But it is such a long shot. And she was invited back, interviewed with the team at the white house over sort of a day and a half. And came back from that. And she finally got the call. The call came into her and she was in her chambers in state court. The president got on the line with her. And she was stunned, and excited, and just filled with emotion. She called my dad and said, john, it has happened. So, for the family we went from thinking no, this cannot happen to, my gosh, she has been nominated. For us, it was just, you know, we were thrilled and intrigued. We didnt understand that much about, my brothers and i, about the court. I was the youngest, and had just finished my freshman year in college. My Middle Brother brian i think would have been a junior in college. And scott was working. So it was very exciting for us, and we were very supportive of her going through it, but it was a whirlwind. Dahlia general meese, i know you came to be very good friends with both sandra day and john oconnor. Can you tell us about initially meeting them and if you had any reservations post meeting with them, but what your First Impressions were . Mr. Meese my First Impression was that i was very happy that Ronald Reagan had found a woman he thought was appropriate to be on the court because, as we all talked about, the were not that many available candidates but this was one that in any group that she might have been in, she seemed to fit all the different qualifications. We mentioned some of them with the legislative experience, the personality, the vetting that had gone on with various people at the department of justice. All of them came back with very laudatory recommendations. Bill smith, the president put a lot of confidence in bill on judgeships generally. By the time he came over to us in the white house, usually it was pretty much to the end of the trail. So i think my own feeling was that this was a very accomplished lady, person that you would like to work with. Or have part of your administration. Even though in the august halls of the Supreme Court where you do not have an awful lot of social contact, although i must say we probably had in the ensuing two years, probably more social contact with her than any other member of the court probably, because she was very active socially. And was a very easy person to know. I was extremely impressed with her. Not only with her background but, it was great to have this person as the first woman to be on the Supreme Court. Dahlia and evan, can you flesh out what concerns were, to the extent that there were concerns, going into confirmation hearings. What were folks worried about . Mr. Thomas there was really only one issue. It turned out to be minor. But for a moment, it was that she had as an arizona legislator, she had voted in committee to decriminalize abortion before roe v. Wade. And the right to life folks got onto this and stirred the pot in congress. This was in 1980. The moral majority was coming on strong and jesse helms was a power in congress. And there was a concern that helms and thurmond and some others, their staff was saying, what is this about her abortion record . There was a moment when we thought, whoa, they were demonstrators chanting vote no on o. There was a little flap but several things happened. Maybe general meese could speak to this. The white house was never really bothered by this. They wanted this to go away. They sent their people up to the hill. She was a great advocate in her own cause. She went up, play tennis, made friends with Strom Thurmonds wife and charmed jesse helms. Was a great representative of her own cause. The facts were squishier than had been initially suggested and there is one more interesting piece of this. Im very grateful that jay gave me Justice Oconnors diary. She kept a diary of her early years on the court. This is her version of the meeting with Ronald Reagan. She said, she was anxious. He said to me there has been a lot of debate about when life begins. And i think we should give the benefit of the doubt to life beginning at conception. She thinks hes warming up to a question on abortion. But he left it at that. He never asked the question. She was on the record that she found abortion personally aborrent. But she had not said where she was on roe v. Wade, or what she would do about the court. She would finesse that in her confirmation hearings but when the president himself brought the subject up, he did not ask the question. She gave a sigh of relief and didnt answer and they started talking about horses. Now, i think that is because the president , and maybe general meese has a better sense of this, really did not want to know, in a way. Did not want to have a fight over this. And truthfully, i do not think at that moment she knew exactly where she was on roe v. Wade. Jay shed never faced the issue as a legal matter. Mr. Thomas it is a hard thing. She spent many years on the court working her position. She became, her position became the law of the land on abortion, but it took a number of years for her to get there. Dahlia thats the question i was going to ask you. Because you said when we had our preparatory call you said the same thing. This was not an issue for the white house. They didnt want to get in a fight about this. Mr. Meese Ronald Reagan always felt that he should not exact a promise from a judge on how they would rule on cases they had not seen yet. And she felt the same way. And that was actually the way in which she got through. She had a lot of questions in the committee hearings. A lot of questions when she went around to meet the different senators. She always took the position that i cannot tell you or make a decision on a case that i have not yet seen on the facts. That was true, because later on there were some abortion cases in which she ruled one way. And others in which she ruled differently, because the issues in some cases were substantially different. But both she and the president had the same idea of not having a quid pro quo. In other words, making a litmus test, you might say on any issue, particularly when you did not know what the facts would be in a future case. So i think it was a matter of just the basic ethical feelings on both parts, that this is a subject she was not going to answer a question like that. Dahlia and speaking of things we couldnt contemplate ever happening again, she then sailed through her confirmation hearing with a 991. 990 was the vote. Mr. Meese in the senate. I think there were maybe a couple of negative votes in the committee. But not any substantial mr. Thomas senator denton gave her a hard time. Mr. Meese im not. Mr. Thomas i dont think so. Mr. Meese there had been some. There had been some strong questioning by some of them. Mr. Thomas senator denton questioned her closely. Dahlia but that does lead me to mr. Meese by the way. Not only was it 990, but the person who was absent that day sent her a book with an apology had not been there to vote for her. Max baucus. Dahlia but i do think we have to talk for a minute about the confirmation hearings themselves. They are televised. Mr. Meese this was the first time confirmation hearings had been televised. And you know, up until that time they were not usually very contentious. As a matter of fact when william o. Douglas in the 1930s, probably the most liberal justice ever recommended by franklin roosevelt, he sat outside the hearing room and after he sat outside about one hour, somebody came outside and said, mr. Douglas, you can go home. We do not have any questions. [laughter] quite a difference from today. They were not contentious at that time. And i suspect there were a lot of members of the senate who did not want to be in the position of voting against her, either, because she had made such a good appearance and also this was the first woman. Dahlia and that leads me to, and i know were going to talk about this as the day progresses, but this is the media event that turns her into a rock star. This is the thing. She still i think is the most recognized justice. Everybody, stacks of mail being sent to chambers. And she really, at the risk of overstating it, kind of was the kardashian of the court. She was the person who everybody knew who she was. And young girls would stand in line. I guess im so ambivalent about that, because i think now we are in a moment where celebrity justices have become a thing. It wasnt something she sought out, but it certainly happened. I guess, jay, i would love for you to reflect on being in the eye of this media rockstar hurricane. Jay it was both the first televised hearing and because it was the first woman. It really was an iconic moment i think for so many women and professional women. And throughout the rest of her life, so many women would come up to her and tell about remembering exactly where they were when they learned she was the first woman to be appointed to the court. And it was a real game changer. She really, its a wellknown figure. At that time, most americans couldnt name one other justice on the court. They were not, people in d. C. Who paid attention to these things and lawyers would know differently but, if you asked, a common person, name people on the Supreme Court. Most people could name zero. And then you asked, they could name her. She was wellrecognized around d. C. And going around town. And i think she, for her, i think she felt an extra burden as the first woman and as a recognized figure about how she would perform on the court. She said many times, it is a good thing to be the first on the court, but you do not want to be the last. She knew all eyes would be on her and she had to do her best. Dahlia evan, go ahead. Mr. Thomas to follow up on that, in her diary, she knew everybody was watching. In her first oral argument, she, all eyes are on her, waiting for the first question and she starts to ask the first question. And the idiot lawyer arguing in front of her talks over her. She wrote in her diary, i felt put down. Thats a very unusual emotion for her. And it didnt last very long. But think about this for a second. She had been a legislator, state court judge. She had not dealt with the u. S. Constitution and she had to learn that summer. She had to learn all the Supreme Court jurisprudence and the u. S. Constitution that summer. She lost ten pounds. The person preparing her was a young Justice Department aide named john roberts, the current chief justice. And we laugh about this a little bit, because she was not satisfied with his pace. He couldnt get the stuff. He could not get it xeroxed fast enough to get to her. She was impatient about it. Think of that for a homework assignment. She knew that they were going to be watching her at the Supreme Court. And they are going to pick this up in the next panel, those early days were not easy. Its a cold place. It is marble. She would go into those courtyards, interior courtyards and turn her face up to the sun. Because she missed the arizona sun. Her first lunch at the court, only four justices showed up. Remember the brethren of woodward and armstrong . The justices were suspicious of each other. Who was the leaker . It was not that easy for her. Justice powell was gracious. Got her a secretary. Justice rehnquist, her pal, was oddly standoffish in these early years. Justice rehnquist had a terrible back condition, and i think that was a factor for him. But she was a little lonely. She knew, as jay said, it is good to be first but you do not want to be last. She knew they were watching her. She did very well. I know from a letter that Justice Powell wrote his family, one month in, he said, shes brilliant. She made her mark right away but it is an intimidating thing to walk into that. One other story about this. They have a wonderful tradition at the Supreme Court hands before they go to conference. Every justice shakes hands of every other justice. Justice bryon white, the allpro half pack from the detroit lions, shook her hand so hard he crushed it. She went in, the first woman went into her first conference crying. She said that there were tears squirting out of her eyes, because he had crushed her hand. And the other justices, Justice Stevens told us there was a tradition, the junior justice takes notes and gets coffee. Justice stevens said he talked about this. We were going to ask her to get coffee, but they didnt. Dahlia and this brings me to kind of the mystery that animates my thinking about Justice Oconnor. I will ask each of you to try to respond to it. We have talked so much about how we think about her being the first. Im always more curious about how she thought about being the first. And i say it in part because i know she spent her whole career saying it didnt matter. A wise old man and a wise old woman would come to the same conclusion. There is no such thing as female jurisprudence. Were the same. She was very meticulous about saying that her gender did not matter, except to her that it mattered. And i always mindful of that, because when john roberts was tagged to replace her, she famously said, hes a very good and excellent choice. Apparently he was now fast enough to pass the xerox test. When he was tapped, her first comment, i think she was flyfishing at the time, and their first comment was, hes a very good choice, but it should have been a woman. And i guess that to me encapsulates this ambivalence that it mattered terribly to her that she was the first woman on the court but she also really wanted to make the claim that it did not matter. So i am asking you an escherstaircase question, but i wonder, maybe we can start with you, jay, what did it mean to her . Jay she felt both of those statements were true. From a legal principle she did feel that it is sexist to say that a woman is going to vote differently than a man on a legal issue. I think she felt strongly and that is what she would always say, but i think that she felt that it mattered societally, and she thought that it helped the court to have a variety of perspectives. And so, she, i think she really believed both of those things at the same time. It seemed to conflict with one another, but i think they were both true former. Mr. Thomas she was a nonfeminist feminist. She certainly advanced the cause of womens rights as much as anybody ever, but she never explicitly referred to herself as a feminist she saw, jay said that i framed the book. That was her frame. She had a poem about a pilgrim who built a bridge. She used it in her speeches. Mr. Thomas a pilgrim who builds the bridge so that others may cross. And then the pilgrim doesnt cross himself. So others may cross. And i think she saw herself in that transitional role. And who better, who better than sandra day, how lucky we were that she was the first. Dahlia i think general meese, i would ask slightly different but the same question. I remembered her always telling the story about how Justice Scalia would tweak her, you only got this gig because president reagan made this pledge. Having heard that, thats kind of why she got the job. She was nobodys bork. She was taken on as a woman. And yet she always said it did not bother her at all when scalia would tease her. She would laugh it off. Mr. Meese scalia was quite a humorist. He was not trying to put her down. It was kind of a jovial thing that he had with other members of the court, particularly her. But i dont think, she had spent her entire life doing things that were mostly jobs held by men. This was not particularly unusual, in that sense. But she also, as everybody said, she was no longer, not a woman. And yet she was able to carry this out in excellent fashion. To me, it was even more than being the first woman on the court. I think one thing she did, she put a human face on the court. Up until then, i dont think anyone thought of justices as human beings. This is something she added to it, because of the personality she had as well as the way in which she treated other people. That was a real plus not only for the court but for women and for the country. Dahlia you are going to hear a lot about chili, cherry blossoms, all the ways she really did become kind of the cruise director on the Supreme Court. Just really mindful of how to treat people with this capacious big heart and infinite patience. I want to thank evan thomas, whose book first is really an extraordinary piece of work. I want to thank jay oconnor. And i want to thank general edwin meese iii, 75th attorney general of the United States. On behalf of all of us, it has been just a joy and a pleasure starting your day hearing about the truly extraordinary Sandra Day Oconnor. Thank you. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2019] tonight on American History tv on lectures in history, the 1981 trial of jean harris, the woman accused of murdering hermann tyne hour. School,id well in high went to smith college, she did everything that a wealthy young woman of that era was supposed to do. She says that there was a struggle over the gun. There appears to be evidence that she is bruised. She testifies he hits her in ways that he never hit her before. There is never any evidence that he hit her prior to this. Nixonsdent richard 1969 silent majority speech. , the great silent majority. My fellow americans i ask for your support. Campaign for the presidency to in the war in a way we can win the peace. I have implemented a plan of action that will allow me to keep that pledge. Foreignr u. S. Service officer on being a hostage in iran. Detain permits you to to a guest will . , Ronald Reagans White House Political Affairs direct. And he cleans up new hampshire. It was such momentum that it is a good thing that we won by such a big margin, because we already spent most of our money. American history tv every weekend on cspan 3. We are making it easy for you to follow the impeachment inquiry on cspan. Org. Search cspans coverage for video on demand of all of the congressional briefings, hearings, and the administrations response during the inquiry process. Log onto our webpage at you arerg impeachment, fast and easy way to watch cspans unfiltered coverage anytime. Army heritage day is an annual event held in may at the u. S. Army heritage and Education Center in carlisle, pennsylvania. Hundreds of living history giveists are selected to demonstrations and talk about military subjects ranging from the American Revolution the war on terror. Next on american artifacts, we visit a medical tent set up as a world war ii u. S. Army battalion aid station, a mobile emergency room located close to the front lines. I am dr. Moody and this is battalion aid station. We are part of the second battalion, 506 airborne. Am