Good evening everyone, welcome to our latest raven book chat and i am will pick talks at the hawkins and i thank you for joining us tonight. Im starting to sound like a broken record before every event but these days when theres so many options for things to do with every time. You could just sit on your couch never evening. Through you critique alexei for us to have folks come in for our events so we really appreciate it. I know that the staff of raven bookstore appreciated as well. Ill introduce you to our guest speaker, james sherow is a professor and the department of history at Kansas State University and he specializes in Research Environmental history and north American Indian history and history of the American West. Professor sherow as written six books norment articles and empire across the heartland, rephotographing alexander gardeners journey which is a familiar resource first staff involved here and i know we have that book on our shelves and weve used it. And the grasslands of the United States environmental history which is another book. Tonight, fresh professor will sherow discuss his latest book and caught this available for purchase and signing thanks to our partners at the raven bookstore right here in texas. Without further ado, please join me in welcoming james sherow. applause well, thank you will and thats a generous introduction and i appreciate that and thank you for hosting me and i really am honored by this. Also, the raven bookstore thank you for hosting this as well and this is quite the privilege. Ill start with a question that came to my mind as i started researching this book. Because, why in the world would anybody want to do a book on the chisholm trail. Its been expanded in movies and novels and so my approach to this was to make it and ask some different questions than before and do this within an environment of historical context. The things that i was looking at is i like to follow joseph mccoys life because his life really encompasses everything that this trail system was about. When i look at his life and the opening of the chisholm trail why. The trail . Why was so important in the first place and why it was the trail done at this particular moment in time. More importantly, why joseph mccoy and why this particular individual had as his legacy. We came to an overarching conclusion about this and said it all has to do with one word, connections. And a brief two decades, that this trail system was in place, just so you know, really remarkable transformation and the american grass length and this is a transformation that the trail system in many ways made possible. Two individuals understood that transformation. One was james mead who was an indian trader and helped put together the cattle trade and he saw a lot and periods the law and the other fellow is john hatch a commander at fort sill. Both of these individuals when this case had the destruction which actually held create because he was a free trader and he lamented that later in his life and passed he came into place across the land and replacing partisan that he longed for that holder grasslands and that prairies just some of law and animals and throughout his life he, lamented that transformation which he was a part of in the first place. And the commander was working with observing what was happening as a result of this gracing of cattle and the influx of how that was transformed in the ecology of the grasslands going from a mixed grasses them to a sparse short grass system covered by brush and what caused that kind of code transformation . It has this for another weekend as well. He was there in his mind to help go from bison hunting to raising cattle and eventually, reaching that Higher Ground of civilization as helping farmers. This was these two individuals saw what was going on. The people who seem to be on the losing end of this grand story or the people occupied grasslands prior to the cattle trades. Some of these individuals or in part responsible for it, and some of them wanted to be involved in it. Black beaver, very interesting delaware was involved in the for trade across the American West and when he came back to present a oklahoma and indian territory the time, he took up ranching. He had a cattle herd himself and was wealthy individual and had a sizable farm. A very interesting individual who is also trading. He went up and down chisholm trail and in many respects, he could call this a lack beaver trail as easily as we would call it a chisholm drill. The principal chief of the cherokees, dennis bushy had was in the 18 90s was impossible to control the trade that they controlled it was the strip and wanted to regulate and tax the cattleman who were braising their herds in a different way and he had his own herds and before the civil war its amazing that the chair had their own brand of cattle and in fact, in indian territory this estimated prior to the civil war that these five nations at 250,000 cattle and some of these ranchers had as many as 10,000 in their herds. So we need to rethink how we think about the kettle trade. General porter was a general in the civil war with the confederacy and some of the other people fought with them and they won but after the civil war, he took up ranching again and was very concerned about whose right it was to control the free plant and they were well known for making cattle razors. Was it going to be the federal government who controlled him or were indians actually a sovereign nations except by treaty we ought to be controlling what we do. But they were unable to and eventually all of these individuals were out completely. We borrowed the brunt of this as well as the landscape that they occupied. Well, when i think about this im thinking, how do i tell this story and this individual joseph mccoy was the first to follow in doing this. The story can be told by the following in what he did and this great gamble on the chisholm trail and what was this . In 1899, he was a total big a meeting at the National Livestock association and the opera house in colorado. These were stockman and you need to understand the distinction between stockman and cowboys. Stockman own the herds and the on the land. They were the ones who controlled the trade from top to bottom. On this setting here, this stage, mccoy is going to be honored and given a lifetime membership for this organization for what he meant to developing modern cattle trade that was in the beginning in the 20th century. When i talked about him, they talked about his work being a mission and thats an interesting statement any cattle trade and pursuing the mission. But it was contemplating the mankind and particularly, mccoy went to produce and have beef to send a working class people to United States. Before this time they also talked about ecological changes to make the wilderness awesome as the roads and thats how he was introduced to the person who did this. Mccoy, when he fought by himself, and when he thought about stopping it altogether, its interesting to know how he framed this and they are the best of others have the most ardent of lovers and thats an interesting comment. He affectionate husbands and the best man. But here is where he goes on a different direction than we think a lot of people would go and they are gods noble man and hes using that word noble very precisely and stockman thought of themselves as a parents and thought about themselves as a cast of nobleman and they were the librarian who was just doing a little patch of 160 acres. These are men on a grand scale who lived in very large homes and large ranches and employed hundreds of individuals. In some cases, maybe they had heard that we are reaching a 200,000 animals but these were a man who thought on a large scale and in this respect when they talk about being gods chosen this, doesnt fit into that american ideal of the land owning farms being the backbone of the republicans. These are men of different cats. They are pursuing something quite grand as he did. So, where do i want to begin the story . Well, where everyone would begin the cattle trail story in particularly texas cattle on the streets of new york city fluff fan and this is where i began this work and in the post civil war era new york city was the largest city in the United States of over 1 Million People and there are people coming in when you consider the self all other cities were devastated and summit been completely ruined hannah new york city was growing throughout the entire silver war and amassing lots of people and lots of hungry people. I cannot imagine what new york city was like an 1866. Im trying to explain it a little bit. Not only were there people crowded in the streets but there are horses and animals constantly running through the streets and we all know those animals leave behind. The streets were covered with manure and these animals, there were large logs in the city as well as the massive cost to the various butters. There were wild dogs and running the streets and there were herds from sheep and in the streets of the city but more interestingly, from my perspective, this came out of this illustrated. There were cattle down the streets of new york city every single day and thousands of cattle and it boggles my mind to think about how we went up fifth avenue which was the case during that time. If you look at the island of manhattan and down from battery park that is called the slaughterhouse and theres a reason for that. Theyre in this area of around 200 slaughterhouses daily. Taking the animals doing slaughtering in that district and about 55 of animals back into these barrels that wild hogs will be out of. That must have been and an amazing scene altogether. This is where, the large markets were on the jersey shore here so the corridors of beef would be butchered and some of them would be hung and people at the time were talking about these crimson curtains blocking the aisles of the market here. Those were quarters of beef that were coming down and in 1866 it was amazing to me that there was an individual walking the streets and he was from illinois. His name was william mccoy. He had two younger brothers back in springfield, joseph and and was going to be there understanding i was going to drive them and eventually creating the messages and trail so we are changing dining at this and particularly on the entries of dont monaco in its favor treats where theyre at del monacos and they dont want to go stake about a 20 ounce flat of sirloin. Its still amazes me to eat that and not put on much weight. laughs the dining was amazing and very elaborate and many courses but it was starting to replace other cuts as be became more popular with all the poor people that this was potential marketing if you can get into that market and these were the trains that came up into the city on a daily basis where you had cattle for one state altogether now is illinois and thats where most of the cattle and the whole trail driving years and most of the cattle coming in and new york city was from the state of illinois and were texas cattle themselves driven from new york city was a disastrous thing for anyone involved financially that is just a little bit and these were trained that were bringing the catalan on a daily basis and they were coming from all over the place. They were coming from kentucky, ohio and coming down from canada and the province of ontario where the cattle was with the new york market and there is no way that the farmers and the state of new york can supply enough food for other people in new york city. Thats not saying anything else about all the other cities that are along the east coast and growing at the same time. If youre wondering how strong those markets are, maybe we can make good feeling in this business and so, if you look at this, i traced the cattle from 1966 through 1884. The blue line here is the cattle that was driven more out of texas some each season. Pay orange outlined here is the cattle thought was received into new york city. If you look at this theres, only a couple of years where all cattle driven out of texas was implied in the city and only two years thats how strong this one cities market was for beef and so, knowing this boy, if you did just start putting your cattle into this with the cheap cattle in texas you can make a lot of money by the time it gets into the market here in new york city and thats the whole goal. One of the people that realize is very early on was samuel albertan and he realized a couple of times that city streets were no matter where you went and United States and chicago was a mess and new york city streets were and st. Louis had the same problems so pittsburgh came in at the same problems so he decided to put together union stop yards and he was the first to do this and the first one was in pittsburgh and what the stocky are does its a takes the lines and connect them to stop yards and the slaughterhouse and connection at all in the same setting which might be a hotel and business facility for people to engage in a union stop yard where all of this would take all that out of the streets. And that was something people were looking forward to and he hits the Second Venture which was during the Chicago Union stock yards which was for the meat market and the huts and this he opened in december 25th 1865. Which was a gift to the city of chicago. The second one was the arbitrators in jersey. Here is the whole thing being done in jersey in the ferries would take the slaughtered animals to the new york shore so that the trains would arrive into the holding pins and the slaughterhouse and all the business and hotels were connecting there. All of these i one great union where everything is brought together in one setting. This was a great advance, so this started the mccoy brothers that we could put together Something Like this in kansas and capture the trade from texas. Now, john Tracey Alexander was an individual who the mccoy brothers knew very well. He ran an operation of about 80,000 acres, where he raised over winter beef and put them into the new york markets. He was the largest operator in illinois. After the coy brothers, this texas chattel worked very cheap because i have nowhere to go during the silver war and had them to have transportation where they take them to places like alexander illinois and will fatten them up. The mccoy brothers were interested in being middlemen in this system and were interested in being cowboys themselves and were interested in the buying in the selling of livestock. In essence this was with alexander who had them over the winter with hay and corn and put them into that new york market. Thats an extra pound in a more money that you make. This is the result and that wonderful metropolis of our bullying in 1867 all of about two huts and one run by an interesting fellow who prior to kansas had a whisky shot in abalone and used to be a stage route where they were here man he would give people whisky to get on their way to denver and was also known as the marry of prairie dog town not because he would capture prairie dogs and saw them to people and they would have to drink. Then off they would go and thats was a thriving business before the coy brothers got there. They mccoy brothers put together what they call a Great Western stop in new york. I dont know about you, but when i think about the stock yards and i think about the yard to new jersey, something is happening here but when you couldnt see it very well but Alexander Gardner who very well was known as a photographer got. The signs up here with the Great Western stock yards and i tend to think given the status of this individual that was standing up there so, what motivated him in his brothers to put tens of thousands of dollars through this operation and it was this. If you put a hotel there thats one of the great Union Stock Yards and thats where they businessman came and where the main stock medication came and thats where they did their business and they had a billiard hall and things were very comfortably set up. So, this is where the cattle were loaded. They were in abolition and theres a reason for this but they have to do something called inaudible in 1860 60, cattleman got their act together to recover from the silver war to drive cattle into illinois. What happened when they started doing this is something that happened as early as 1860. In this instance or they got close to domestic short they were so happy and that a couple of dairy cows and they have a calf and then it goes by and they heard a skilled and youre not too thrilled with the presence of texas cattle so in the eastern part of the state was settled by farmers like this and they were tough on the east texas cattle and they were stampeded in indian territory or they would take lots of occasions it drove to a tree and witness back until two not come this way again. They were very serious and it tickles me a little bit to see westerns who had some texas cowboys who raised terror with these defenses farmers. And so, they had to find someplace out of range where they could drive cattle and have those farmers because it was serendipitous they would have the building of these railroads and by 1867, it was reaching the line and building up further west so that brings that first link. And so, the government could drive to kettle up here and then the cattle could be put on to the stop cars and eventually reached illinois and additional weight on the other east coast it is. It all looked a very good and mccoy was more than willing and he and his brothers were more than willing to invest in get going. There were other route to their were very important at this time to. There were other markets our pulling kettle out of texas and into other places as far as going to savannah up but cattle American Cattle would go on transatlantic boats just like new york city, london and the population significantly shifted most farmers and eventually, there are changes in technology and the steam ship had refrigerated holes so now, you could have more ways in this and move them into london with live cattle. Were shipping life kettle like this year and have a few problems by the time they get there. This . It doesnt matter, theyre packed and refrigerated and theres a loss on the shipment shipment when its over and everyones pretty happy once that technology was finally together. Cattle were also taken up in the mississippi river. This shows cattle being loaded up to a steamboat in the river and the red river enters the place for texas to provide kettle. They would be packed so tightly that the dex of these votes would have to stand in where it took for this in illinois to get there. Joseph mccoy talked about the conditions of the cattle and were packed so tightly that the crew would throw hay and the cattle would eat the hay and would be having a hose touches fed by hose to get the water that they needed. This was a brutal transportation. But it was showing you the tools of the trade. Here, is the thing that shaped the trade more than anything else altogether. This little creature was syphilis and it harvard a three large quota zone a tiny Little Critter inside this thrived in the southern regions of the United States and portions of texas and mississippi and louisiana, georgia, florida. What this tech would do is it latches onto cattle and would latch on to dear and horses as well and it would release this chromosome into the bloodstream. And now, in the south, belong horns and the cherokee cattle both developed the mothers milk game this enough energy where they could survive and they would be touched by this disease but they would survive it in adulthood. This produce zone when i came into the bloodstream wasnt protected by antibodies and with directly attack the but sells and would really destroy them. This was a pretty gruesome death and in the north, this was in the winter. So, the short horns in the north and the encounter was not until the texas cattle were brought up during the summers and the texas cattle oftentimes their whole hides would be covered with the sticks. To the point that the hides were almost engraved from being covered with these ticks. This will drop off along the trail and any time they got to these herds the, takes would latch onto these animals. These animals had no immunity. This caused havoc throughout the entire industry. Nobody understood or figured out how to treat this until 1890. Well after all of this was done and over and this was in the whole again in those markets and in 1868 mccoy gets the operation really going and thats the first time the ships to the east out of his place. So he thinks, man, 68 is going to be even better. This is what happened in 68, this fever broke out all across the east. It broke out in canada because it got through canada a remark market broken in new jersey. And kettle all across the nation and it simply states but this chaos i knew imagine what michael i thought enabling that no place to sell it and it was a devastating thing that eventually all these cattleman had a conference in springfield illinois where they worked out arrangement that any coddled overwhelmed because they knew that for some reason, every cattle tower save to put because the text would die. I dont think they understood why that this was happening. So, any of them but are certified would go to the markets the following year. Mccoy noted that with a nice little bribe that they could get certified from being over learned. That was the compromise that everyone had to make. All these delegates from across the United States and canada, especially in springfield workout the situation. So, that was one aspect of this that had environmental contacts and how climate shaped them and lived in how it went on the market with policies and governors and then consumers and it didnt money any of these animals like this so all of these things were put together and there were connections that i was looking for to understand. You can see other connections as well and its a little bit of a lighter touch. Not only was rainfall a dangerous situation for cattle on the trail, and he didnt want to be caught out in this and oftentimes you are. I cant imagine what it was like for the herds to be caught in these lightning and then our stampeding and you have to go out there and bring those kettle back into the herd. If youve been in a hailstorm and you know thats not a fun event. But these were the conditions that these people endured. There were other things that were interesting about more than just these rainstorms. In front of this was what was the rainfall amounts in the seasons which happens to be the season rainfall in 1867. Done and recorded by different articles and the blue line in the business in texas where its in the southern portion of oklahoma and in Fort Lauderdale in kansas. What happened in is interesting to note is that these are the lines here that are across the avalon. For some reason, its an extra ordinary amount of rainfall in september with us in july. This affects grass conditions and a lot of cattleman call washy grass and they put a whole lot of weight on to the cattle and it could be lots of it and in look healthy but its not going to produce the beef cattle at market price. These kind of variations in terms of rainfall effect Market Conditions across the entire United States. Once again, the connections, what are they . Some of the connections and im sure cowboys around the campfire never thought about i wonder how strong they are at this weight and i dont know it could be a messy summer for us if its not. Well, el ninos in this blue line up of 1877, this is particularly very strong and what el nino produces along the lands is to hire a great rainfall so in 1877, if you look at this its a very high rainfall. The coddled businesses collected two more than just the markets in new york city. This is connected to whats happening with pacific currents that are driven by changes in radiation. I dont know about that kind of connection and what was happening to them on the trails. To me, this was fascinating to chart out over time and i looked at this if you have strong wind and rainfall the dips and you can see oftentimes where these lines are and you can see the dip in the rainfall. So, all of these connections from far out of sight are affecting what happens to the cattle trait. Most interesting thing is over winter ring. Its not being given a whole lot of attention as far as i concerned. If you think about over wintry, remember, if the cattle were certified over winter they could go freely into the eastern markets so you are driving the cattle up the ad al ain and he kicked them out of the grass prairies any set up a nice operation and made them in the emerging grass and was into the markets and even before it drives from texas to this point. But it must of been for cowboys because he got to live in the dugout by life stream and had a lot of time for cattle. You had to be frozen up with the dehydration. Cowboys got to see their spare time putting up a few things for these cattle that they were knowing up here in the prairies. Remember, the grasses of dorman which that hurts gotta go a little bit further out and they need to get back into the water. So, obviously, living in a dugout in the winter of kansas we didnt do that this year and how many of you would like to spend a winter Walking Around the roofs of creek . It would not have been very pleasant. But this particular winter the markets were full in the east coast so a lot said that over winter will have to go further west because in this particular year in the fall of 1871. The prairies were burned off and so the only place where they had grass was on the shore further out around the case. They take the kettle out there in november is looking not too bad in this is freezing and the temperatures are dry from farming posts and they have for reilly and they took the readings, three times a day in the morning, afternoon and early evening. That is what this grass shows are those combined readings through the month of november. Well, i think any of you could see what happens here and the highs on the day is one, to, three only do they get above freezing. Now, if youre one of those cowboys stuck with the heard and some were about so lying and hays youre, looking a little anxious about word starting to turn out. This is december it, doesnt get much better. The line across here, once again is freezing and christmas wasnt worth celebrating much because the high on Christmas Day in fort reilly got up to about five degrees below zero. During that particular winter to it at high winds and snow so not only freezing temperatures. It makes me think that last february was pretty mild. This was january and it just doesnt get much better. By the time spring came, detects is cattleman who is out there unlike anywhere from 70 from 90 of the herd. About the only thing that they are able to harvest about the heights was the newspaper accounts here in lawrence waited for shipments of cars filled with cattle hides. And that all was left that the cattleman salvaged of this particular winter. Once again, what are the connections between tips, quota zola, winter and these are the things that we figure out that affect the markets. Geography also affected all of this in the way kettle were being driven. Oftentimes driven on the trails and this is the other connection that have been driven of a place in this map there is no indication of trees in kansas and there are creeks on either side so you could see why whats coming out you from either side is only going to water and grass and that is the key component and making that work. But the thing thats going to finally preserve all of us its getting back to the jefferson any an ideal of the republic. Chopping up the land into sections and quarter sections and so forth. This is federal surveying outfit on present day county starting to cordon off the land to make little squares. This is something that will put an end to the texas kettle driving. The two systems cannot coexist. Once this is put into swears its on that property and are growing the wheat off instead of having the short grass as youve seen here and i dont want texas kettle coming up so, this represents that transformation from this system that you see here to a full fledged system and the changes that accompany that. When you look at this from photographs from 1867, this is a photograph who lives here in town and was a photographer for the survey and he studied these photos from alexander garner that were taken and was a little bit to the west of kansas. You can see the sparse kind of bear on the side of the hill here and here, you see the grass and lands and trees and alligators and it different landscape that took place here by 2000. So, this but the cattle traded and that it created a pathway for these to come into play and replacing this. That is one of the connections that i looked at and how that transformation went through and what forces would make this possible. Basically, you can have different kinds of systems in the same place and think about this as this system and this being it domesticated system and it is the grass past the grass and its the grass, its just not buffalo grass and able thrive there and both to okay there most of the time and we have two different very distinct systems occupying the space. So, i think was the importance of the cattle trade is that this transformation was possible. When and when i look at the lionize and 1915 of of 1915, Marshall Murdoch had this to say that mccoy would raise them to the mirage of the eye of the poet. The prairies went long ago that joseph mccoy went on of there tomorrow. What does that dream . Well, Marshall Murdoch said the prairies are full of cities and crisscrossing it with giant highways and with teaming millions. When we think about what we should talk about in the legacy and mccoy, what did murdoch at right . Well, obviously, who we have here is a transformed grasslands and we also have the transformation of the Union Stock Yard penny refrigeration of different forms of transportation to get kettle into these lands and indian peoples cultures were completely destroyed. They never had a place by 1890, they lost control of most of them are unable to maintain their own herds and the experience came to a complete it disaster and this is because had a habit of going on to the reservation to stealing the kettle from the going back home again. There oftentimes put back which was never a Fan Experience and they were stealing this cattle and the soldiers were stationed at fort still in other places. And the former Union Veterans and to complicate matters they were put into play also and heard the African American culture that created a rough time with confederates. So, indian people didnt have a lot of resources to combat that. They were not able to protect the trade. The charities eventually lost their deal to control leases and not only that, they had the land sold off and that completely destroyed their ability to do ranching in what they would have once done. Then, they knew western mythology gave us the myth of we oftentimes think of him as remembering but it really didnt have much to do with the workers. In fact, my newspapers talked about cowboys early on in the Capital Trade business, the New York Times and new york tribune refer to them as herders instead of cowboys which was the beginning of the trade. They were the stock men and they gave us the myth that it had been prevailed into Popular Culture and was the myth of the cowboy which was an irony that mccoy was giving the mid to mid of the ploy. These are some of the things that i have come to understand that opened my eyes to see in a different kind of way and looking at the whole different set of connections that are in some cases not made to work. I thank you for your time and id be happy to take any questions he might have. applause does anyone have a question . Yes. Professor sherow, i think about how americans bodies a particular changed in the 21st century because of our diets its been pretty drastic. Im curious it sounds like beef became a staple of the american diet after the civil war thanks to people like mccoy. And your research have you recovered any indicators or evidence that American Culture or Americans Health or way of life changed in that time period because of beef consumption . Thats an excellent question and yes it did. The texas kettle was always fetching lower prices then the short horns raised in canada or illinois. Mccoy understood this and so the texas cattleman. The idea was to put it in some of the other markets and this is oftentimes where very poor people multiplied their food. A great meal for them was that they couldnt afford to buy beef. It became more prominent in their diet after advances in creating the arbitrators like allergen did which was matt produced and had never been done before by those 200 butcher shops that had the slaughterhouse district. They pour working class was being able to buy beef on a regular basis and they were cheaper and Texas Longhorn was sold or served in dont monaco to start and that never wouldve happened it, never wouldve been of had the market that went along with it. Longhorn at best weighed over 900 pounds. It was a pretty small animal, so the cuts were also leaner even though the illinois put on a little bit more fat than by over winter ring them in the eastern markets. Yes sir. The trade to absolutely in 1867 to 71 is, that correct . 72. Where most of those herds what year did those hurts over winter as a result of this in springfield of 68 and that result in a two space crime to stop and what do you think of the drive of where they went and where they went through etc. They were over winter in illinois and thats because you had the commissions and the corn and so the idea was to get them to a transfer spot like ebeling and get to the rail cars and to get to illinois and thats where those people like alexander were so important because they bungled everything after the winter and move the men to those nod your clearcut. Where they along the trail . No, not along the trail. If you are one of the unfortunate people took us in the season, your possibilities are pretty slim. So, you would go west and herds were insulin and haze and were shifted to places that were over winter today. There were places where they were over winter i have two historical questions. One of them is about where the trail was. Are there any verified maps of where the trail went through kansas and where we find them and how wild was it. It wasnt 50 feet was it two miles wide or it buried on the path. Thats a great question. There were surveys on the trail hand these surveys in the Historical Society and the quarterly rate which was complete and oklahoma were very similar along the trail. Theres a lot of questions about where that trail ran and let me see. Just to give you an idea of where the trail is so, there i am on the trail laughs don nag lee and i put on the old trail but the trail itself should never reimagine and as a ribbon because in the first place, you had to be grazing cattle and every one of the first going up then its fine you can keep to a pretty narrow route if. Youre the second or third you have to go a little bit further out what these raising grounds. The rebels are miles apart and they fell into a little short cuts to the main trail which will always have to be close to the water and always had to be close to the grass. Those are two conditions that you should never waver from and it happens at least three times a day in the morning if you get up and going and in the afternoon at some point you take a break and in the evening. So, that was a very serious consideration. If the grazing grounds were grazed off, you had to go far out and pretty soon near in this situation where its far out and they lose the way that they may have gained in the water. You lead the trail early and have a side pass and sometimes it could be many miles apart. My second question was about the lay of the land in new york city. I recently discovered the head tavern which was in chatham square. Was a close to the washington market . As i understand it. That was one of the favorite spots that was in the discussions. Its whatever that drove people there. Okay thanks. Two questions also. The trail exist prior to this period for any simple commerce and secondly, the neighed chisholm trail. Where that come from . There are people of britain stories about all started the last one first in the name chisholm. Most of us agree that i had to do with Jesse Chisholm. Prior to the civil war, there were trade routes all throughout the grass lengths and they knew him very well. You had to be able to find water in grass all the time and thats all people got around. Think about grass as i discussed it in my book as a historic solar energy. That feed the animals and thats what powers them just like solar energy in the form of petroleum and house are cars. Its just a different forum. Thats the key to making it work so you have to have that. So, i was very important. Your question again about the name chisholm. People knew this route from trading post and they would go too many times and your kansas river makes the river where its a close today. This was where people knew this. To go from there to red river self which goes from present day territory there were some routes that people talk and they knew this. And the civil war, the Union Officers were thinking about them very quickly and they could not go self and they couldnt go east and into arkansas and that was a silly move. It was too far in california to go back to the north and so, black beaver took that in 1861 and would become the chisholm trail. It was already a wellknown route so black beaver led the union army with their families to this trading post around where it is today a little farther north of the santa fe trailer and into kansas city. So, when black beaver came back to this ranch, it at all been destroyed by texas confederates so they lost everything. Jesse chisholm was having his operation in present day indian territory and he was part cherokee and part scott swollen he also at that time moved his Trading Operations to that same spot where it is today. After the civil war he, was going back and forth between present day and herded impose their. As raising working also he was in present day to wanda so these people all know each other. They worked a trade with each other in kansas city and he sent trail nows connection to the east. , they knew this route and Jesse Chisholm was following that same route in the arena where he died early on. For some, the trail in kansas created from present day wichita to add alone. That was called mccoys trail and not chisholm trail. There was a debate about if it was called mccoys trailer not and the whole trail system landed on the name chisholm trail. Probably because of chisholm. But it could be easily called black beavers trail. Any other questions . Yes maam. When you refer to the Cowboy College e. What exactly do you mean by that . There were no many cowboys of different characters . There were characters. laughs a lot of them a lot of the cowboys that mccoy talked about where young men and when he talked about them coming into avalon they were wearing gray shirts and the confederacy. The reason i asked that is because my great, great grandfather was a drover and i have someone those made by him in the camp fire and i was part of the story. They were a little bit different than cowboys and managing the herds and it was a cowboy then. And maybe he wanted to be a drover. I think missouri was over in the texas and there are a lot of young men and if you are leading the trial you were well respected individuals because you are in charge of maintaining that was put together by no matter who had many other ranchers. They had its own brand and when the herd was going to be driven north, was the combination of all these different herds in a trail brand. There were two brands which one was identifying the owner and one was driven north. This way, there were times when they kettle would get all messed up from the different herds and they were separating that back on the trail. There were lots of different kurds in the same one and they were responsible for maintaining that order and thats a lot of responsibility. When cattle will be driven up by the trail, you went through native american territory he. Talk about the interactions between the cowboys, drivers and the native people . Native people werent stupid about whats happening. I understood they were owning a lot of filling stations and nobody came for the gas. They had the filling stations they wanted the grass for their own horses and they wanted the grass for the animals that they hunted. So, if youre going to drive the herds up there they want holes paid. Some of their tribes had money and others walls in and say i would like this one, this one, this one and were going to have a barbecue. A good texas government would say fine but i dont know about those but here is this one and i know that the broken leg but you can have it and this one and this one would make decent arrangements. Sometimes it went swimmingly well and sometimes it didnt. We get a misconception about the interactions of one of my favorite stories is about one heard being driven north and its crossing one of the rivers in indian territory in wichita and the command chief come on the scene, they decide that will help you drive the heard across the river and you guys are having some trouble so will help you do this. So, they knew they were going to get something out of the whole thing. Detectives cattleman drives the heard across the river and they really thought that we still havent stopped having fun and i dont know how much but you wonder is but they had some fun apparently so is a game of rope this speeding warrior. They would ride his horse in front of the cattleman and the idea was to rope the brave off of his horse. No one thought he was going to get rope but one unfortunate fellow white anyway and broke off his horse. He fell flat on his back can so they were going, oh my god, were in trouble now and whats going to happen to us and we hope this guy doesnt look very good so they all raced to ropes tied around his chest and pop the rope and then slowly depraved comes back to life and sets up and i think everyone cheered and then and then his own command chief who was with him, broke out in laughter and thought it was the funniest thing theyve ever seen. I dont know with the guy who got ripped off the horse thought and how he got along with everyone after that. The texans were very happy again after having this little bit of sport with them. There were all these stories. Indian people were treated fairly and what they werent treated fairly things went poorly. There were too many stories of things going poorly than things going well. This is three questions and one. What was the average size of the heard of the trial . How many cowboys that require . And how many days did it take . Okay. Those were variables. The hurts could be small as several hundred to a herd is sub of 1000 and it varies of about how many people you need to have someone of that size. If you are heard of a couple of thousand in a few people on the side and maybe two or three and theres always somebody who have a job of having dust in the back and there is the person who had to go scout out the grass and scout out the water sources and where the places where most advantageous. That had to be done in the armada a few miles back. And they were chased out every day in courses in the back and a few cowboys to do that and also had the supplies of the chuckle again. These were pretty large operations and the average was probably 15 dollars a month for the cowboys and it took a cut of the proceeds and the idea was to bring the money back in texas. How long did it take . If they were poor they had conditions to rainfall and rainstorms and could take a lot longer and the stampedes were just incredible the cattle was thirsty and the drivers and the trail got to this one watering hole and so if you go to the next one they smell the water and they ran through the village and the indian horses and rural scattered and the lodges were all over and were going everywhere and you know an interesting true trouble like that. One more question. As someone died along the trail and getting back to texas . I dont know if they got back to texas but we know, i dont know how it worked. I dont know if probably they knew the family was and some of those guys didnt have families. I dont know and that saved me some money and that was kind of not much foolishness on those trail drives and are sentimentality because it was hard work very single day in which its anderson to and we made a note about this that if you are caught drinking while driving and being on the trail and there was no toleration for a drunk cowboy on the trail. Its more trouble than they were worth. No matter where they were that could be a very dangerous situation where there was a lone individual in the territory and said good luck buddy. How do we even know what happened . To the cowboy sit that in at night and drive a journal . How do we know this . Mccoy did and he wrote about his experience in the trade. In the 1920s, with the passing of many of these cowboys. There was a group of individuals in texas that put together interviews of all cowboys poor on the trail and that has been published for the trail drivers in texas. Those stories are fascinating to me and you have to be careful by reading them because erasing peoples memories and things that happened 20, 30 years earlier and in some cases 40. So, potentially, you detect some embellishment and some of the stories check out very well in terms of you can cross reference and there driving this on through indian territory and they had all of this trouble with a northerner and in other words a storm coming up north. I can look at the records and say, they were here on this day but what was happening with the notes and once they go or late you know that story is true. But maybe the one about the drivers who came up to a boeing and searched and couldnt sell their animals because they sent most of the crew back to texas and kept the herd out and they said why dont you help me catch some bison and advertised that way instead of advertising bison in the cities of st. Louis, chicago and im going to get them to the sue. So it was an early form of the wild west show and you could rope them with bison that they captured and show people the wild west was all about. This was 1868. They didnt get any further in chicago and they reported about what happened which was a debacle. The bison already was crippled up by the time they got there and the cowboys were pretty rough on the bison and newspapers were reporting the viciousness and the next tonight showing the counsel mccoy didnt do so. Those are just interesting sides of things that happened with. Is there an estimate on how many in the trail during this activity number one. Number two, when did chicago become the slaughterhouse of the world . You talked about the cattle going directly into new jersey and chicago developing at the same time with federation cards . Let me deal with that question first they dont have a confirmed answer for you on the first. I dont know exactly how these individuals went up and down. It would just be a wild guess and i dont want to do that. But to your second question. Chicago we really start dominating the slaughterhouse and stocky our trade by the 1900s. There are not a lot of big firms prior to this and they were in kansas city and omaha and in colorado. Refrigeration helped and theres no question about that. Consolidating of slaughterhouse and shipping and the stock yards is what led to the chicago people looking to dominate it. This is them when you hear the stories about the jungle and the conditions of working in the slaughterhouses of chicago. Chicago came to dominate and that was through a series of ruthless consolidation. Eventually, they top yard facilities in new jersey are closed down and in those eastern cities they get closed down and we see that happening across kansas and over the last 15 years to and is no stock yards. They are in kansas city and all the slaughterhouses and the western portion of the state. And you see the shifting even during this time period which is a different matter given the technology. applause i want to thank you all, youve been an attentive audience and thanks for the questions and thank you for coming out tonight