You are in for a real treat. I am so excited to host this debate. Its pretty rare to have an ideological debate about these things. I certainly think that is a conservatives we benefit when we understand the other sides perspective. Are not shooting down the others issues on this. We have with us steve moore he was a trusted advisor to president donald trump. At the Heritage Foundation and a colleague at the wall street journal. We also have Bhaskar Sunkara the editor of the jacobin. Is called the socialist manifesto. The format were going to have the make opening statements. I asked a couple of questions and we will take questions from the audience. As youre listening write down what you want answered and we will get some of those in and the do a closing statement. So lets have steve moore kicked off. Thank you and by the way Jillian Melchior just got back from hong kong. My first proposals how we give the Nobel Peace Prize to those Freedom Fighters in hong kong . Second of all, i want to do a shout out to jennifer and rick. This is an awesome conference. I was here 15 years ago. This is an amazing conference. Thank you for bringing me out. I think ive done this for five times. And i always had a great time. Who knew there were so many deplorable people here in colorado . So what am i going to say . Im distressed by the fact that in the land of the free, denies dates. The greatest country on earth. Latest polls show that over half of College Graduates today view socialism as a superior option to Free Enterprise capitalism. That is a distressing for a lot of reasons. One of which is it tells you a lot about the very sad state of our education system. The fact that we spend 300,000 to educate our kids, its a huge Public Investment in education. And then they come out with these dingbat ideas of socialism. Capitalism. I was fortunate enough to be friends with milton friedman, the greatest economist of the past 100 years. He used to say that what is the enduring lesson of the last century . And i think its pretty clear to anyone the nose history that socialism, communism, whatever you want to call it is a failure. It repressed the citizens, cause people to be poor, and the freemarket capitalism is a success. Is about the most important lesson of what happened in the 20th century . Now we have kids who think we need more socialism. We need to do something , and by the way i most people in this room are conservative. Thank you for coming to groups that may not necessarily agree with all of your ideas. We have got to take back our schools. If we allow the left to run our schools, we are going to get kids who dont understand the way the world works. Quickly my point would be, i dont have a clicker but i brought as few slides, jillian tell me when my eight minutes are up. Will give you eight minutes and 30 seconds. Whatever you say minutes . Okay ill just show a few things. First of all weve done a lot of research at the heritage and it shows clearly that there is a linear relationship between the more free you are as a country, and by Economic Freedom that is lower tax rates, Less Government spending, Property Rights , less regulation , the rule of contract. Sound money and privatization. You can see what youre looking at are these charts that show low and behold. This is showing a positive thing. The world has become more free over the last 1520 years and thats a good thing. And as freedom has emerged theres been a reduction in global poverty. I would make the case of the single greatest achievement in Human History is what is happened in the last 25 years in terms of freemarket capitalism. The Movement Towards a free market capitalism places like india and china. We have moved 1 billion people out of abject poverty. Thats a great improvement in such a short time. The next chart shows that Economic Freedom is associated not just with more economic performance, but free countries have better environmental improvement. Countries that are rich spend more on protecting the environment. The next one shows social progress. Things like health and other dynamics that are not just economic but social progress. Education and things of that nature. Infant mortality is highly associated with Economic Freedom. The next chart shows that not only are countries that are free richer, a lot richer. They have higher Life Expectancy, Better Health outcome social and economic progress are associated with Economic Freedom. And finally im just going in with us. Was just talk about the states. This is one of most powerful arguments for Free Enterprise. Lower taxes , less regulation , that is what is happy. Youve heard me talk about this before. The big story of what is happening in America Today is a high tax, socialistic blue states are getting clobbered by the red states. You can see that in terms of the four biggest dates in the country. Texas and florida with no income tax and right to work laws and less regulations. They are literally stealing the assets of red states like california and new york which are losing their people. I would stop by simply saying that the evidence is pretty crystalclear that Free Enterprise is a solution to our problems and we need to really think about how we can persuade voters that this is the right solution . You clocked in at five minutes and 30 seconds. You can use my extra time. First of all, thank you for the host and the invitation and the willingness to engage in a democratic socialist in debate. Both the best of classical liberalism and the best of democratic socialism share common roots in the enlightenment tradition. And an error of growing sectarianism and their mindlessness im glad to see the spirit of free inquiry. I will try to outline a definition of what capitalism is, and the definition of what democratic socialism is . I will have to speak quickly. I might need the total eight minutes and 30 seconds. Socialist do not see capitalism as an entirely oregon mostly negative historical phenomenon. Crucially we emphasize capitalism isnt merely a market system or freemarket or Free Enterprise system. Weve been using markets for millennia, i believe they would serve a crucial role in a future democratic social system. So what is capitalism and what are the origins . Kaplan is a society that is characterized by wage labor and market dependence. I say that in a pejorative way. You dont have to think so. Thats the definition i will be operating from. Before capitalism, feudalism was a dominant system across much of the world. People were divided between those who work the land to survive, and the small minority who appropriated the minorities through political coercion. Peasants had access to their lands, however lord that used force to extract a portion of their yield. The system did not encourage innovation because as a peasants produced more most of it would go to the lords. Feudalism faced periodic crisis. The black plague which killed half of the population. And as soon as the continent recovered it was plunged into warfare. End result of the warfare was revolt. The ruling class reasserted its control in Eastern Europe where peasants had their autonomy stripped even further through extreme system of feudalism which is bounded into the states and criminalized flight. In france the peasants secured a de facto ownership of their land, gave less of the yield to the lords. These weaker lords became functionaries of a centralized estate. Middle ground prevailed in england. Peasants stopped the ruling class from extracting greater surplus through brute force , but they failed to win legal land rights. English lords searching for new ways to produce surpluses beyond exploiting a depleted peasantry laid the groundwork for a shift from a peasant proprietor to a tenant system. Tenants received leases and had incentives to be more productive. They kept all their surplus after the rent was paid. Tenant farmers were compelled by the market to maximize production. These farmers started hiring landless peasants as a wage labors. It sounds like a small shift but it is a profound transformation. It produces a highly productive Agriculture Sector that was able to sustain a Large Population that were not engaged in farming. The majority without property could be forced into wage labor. Going back thousands of years, urban market england was there origin of capitalism. We know the measure of the society set into motion advances in humanity. I would agree about your assessment in the last 45 years including brazil, india, and china. Democratic socialist do not want a break with the president. They believe that the new condition of abundance, key aspects of capitalism, the coercion of wage labor, abject poverty and extreme abundance can be done away with. So what is a democratic socialism and theory . Just as i wouldnt come and say that an american libertarian , i am not defending any authoritarian tradition. In some cases there have been early victims. Im going focus my time on defending the world view i believe in. Democrat socialist believe in the ability of personal and civil social rights. Your right to speech, protest and the salon. The goal isnt to reject liberalism but to ask deeper questions. If freedom of press is a good thing, is that adequate to provide illiteracy, the right to freedom of press would be right and name only. So its not due to be right that extends but what it limits. Democratic socialist believe profoundly in the importance of the individual and the idea that they can only be developed in a society that is able to socially provide the Bare Necessities of life. Food, housing, education, healthcare and so on. Inspired by these ideas democratic socialism in the United States has shaped the society that we live in today. From the eight hour work week to the struggles for womens suffrage, to rights for black americans and so on. Democrat socialist have been at the forefront of all the small movements for democracy in the last 120 years. God rested on the seventh day , and if you get the six day off , thats the product of a democratic socialist led Labor Movement. Indeed the democracy we have and that we respect and enhance was foisted upon capitalist against their wishes by popular struggle. So what is democratic socialism and practice look like . I think this is a difficult question, because it exists with all of its contradictions and all of its warts. A system that exists theoretically. So ill have to draw on some concrete examples. Sing about democratic socialist in a party with marxist roots and radical ambition which governed the state for nearly 40 years . Sweden, where the social democratic party, the social Workers Party governed uninterrupted from the 1930s until 1976. They were able to create a society with public guarantees and achieve better indicators than what we have today. The rights to Business Owners have been undermined, these a societies limit freedom for people to own private property and produce goods and Services Like your car, house, toothbrush. To do what they will with their private property. For the majority that dont come with enjoy greater range of choice and a greater chance to fill their potential. They have the greater freedom not because of private property by the freedom of your own private properties limited. Fundamentally socialist believe in the rights of working people to the fruits of their own labor. We believe in individual rights and freedoms. With individuality can only be developed in a society with a more robust set of democratic guarantees. It is obvious to any american that a person born in fairfield county, connecticut will have vastly different life outcomes and somebody born in flint, michigan. If the system isnt allowing people to reach their potential, and it is a built with exploitation and poverty, how can we make a better . We tried to attain the system and build a welfare state. We advance with the mandate for trial and error and try to construct a society like our predecessors in the nordic state that. Weve accomplish what other societies did with mass movements inspired the democratic socialist ideas. We push to transform unions from their instruments of workingclass bargaining to working cooperatives in the competitive marketplace. If democracy is a good thing when we vote every year the ballot box, then why not have it in work places as well . This is an emphasis your one minute over , thats the command the response. Its focused on worker ownership and not merely the regulation shaping if capitalist outcomes, its the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy. To conclude, its my profound belief that the future generations will look upon capitalism, the system we have today is a time when life outcomes were absent the birth. With a shock and discussed much is the way we look on more extreme forms of exploitations that we vardy done away. There is no success for our nation, democratic socialism is a price we should move toward. But before we continue with a rebuttal i want to come back to you and make sure that were really clear but they were talking of the same definitions. I got a pretty concise a definition of what socialism is from him, but what does that mean to you . It means more government control of the economy. The problem that i have, he made a lot of excellent point. The problem i have with this argument is that we just want to move from Free Enterprise, more in this direction. We want a middle ground. The idea of not having that kind of socialism, and ideas like that is saying we want the good kind of socialism like nordic countries. Thats like saying we wanted the good of venereal disease, not the bad. The more you move towards the socialist a direction, the more youre given them freedom. I love what you talked about , the right of individuals. The bill of rights, which is one of the most Important Documents ever written and part of our constitution. It is all about safeguarding those rights that you are talking about by limiting government. Thats what the bill of rights is. What our founders were worried about was what the government would invade these basic fundamental rights that you talk about. I want to make one other point. Could you put those the charts up again because there is one of the chart i want to put up. While youre doing that i will simply say that a lot of people want more government control the economy. Democratic socialism can be moved to the last slide, this one. Go back. You mentioned education, and healthcare obviously want people to have the highest quality healthcare possible. I actually believe in the rich country we have , we can of or to provide everyone who is a citizen with very high quality healthcare. And i think we should assure that people have that as you mentioned education , absolutely. Part of a democratic capitalist system is you need a well informed electric electorate they can make good decisions. I show this because its so interesting to me but this is showing the rate of inflation, the rate of Cost Increases across all sorts of industries. When they do the Consumer Price index that is made up of thousands and thousands of products and hundreds and hundreds of industries. Some industries have faster rates of inflation than others, so what so interesting about this chart . Lets look at a price increases over the last 20 years. You can see the things that are traded in that our Free Enterprise system. And this is why free trade is important. When you get competition in private enterprise, look at what happens to consumer items. From cars to apparel, furniture, toys, computers, software. These are not the most part regulated by government. And their prices become more affordable to people. They can afford more than. Look at the left side of the chart , you can see the two Industries America were prices are come clearly out of control. Surprise, surprise. Education healthcare. My question to is what do those at two industries have in common . Government. These are the two industries, i asked my liberal friends why do we have the government play such a big role in healthcare and education . Did what they say . To make it more affordable. Theyre doing a great job of it right the two industries with runaway costs are the ones that are the least affordable. I would say that the biggest disgrace in this country as our Public Education system. I really do. I think we are robbing people who grew up in newark, st. Louis, chicago , michigan, detroit, ohio. Im from chicago and ive got the Public Schools in inner cities there. Not one of you in this room would ever send your kids to those schools. They are incredibly depressing places to go. There more like a prison than a school. Ive lived in washington, d. C. And its the same kind of thing. Why do we tolerate that . We should give every single american child of voucher to go to whatever school they want to. Thank you. I agree that we should avoid the no truth in fallacy. For example if im talking to a libertarian and im sharing this content with the way that society is run. They will agree with me and then theyll say the problem is society isnt capitalist enough. In the same way when you talk about certain socialists about the soviet union and other systems and say thats not real socialism. There are forms of capitalism that have veered towards ugly authoritarianism. There have been forms that veered towards ugly authoritarianism. Neither of us defend systems. Its a constant political battle to maintain and safeguard our civil rights in any political system no matter who is in charge, the left or the right. Lets talk about the distinct distinction of state power. Which is the democratic socialist tradition where theyve played a vital role in achieving political democracy in the latter years of the 19th century and early 20th century. Government for decades with the peaceful transfer of power. After the ruled from the mid 1930s to 1976 , what happened when the sap lost the election to the swedish conservatives . They left power peacefully and regain power about six years later. These countries in the span of 3040 years of social democratic role made inroads on the rights of capital through growing regulation and particular through the power of spectral bargaining. I dont have time to get into it but this was led by the Labor Movement , not necessarily state. It was the driving force regulating making inroads against the power of private property. Individual rights were not trampled. I think this is a key distinction and a point of disagreement between us. Which i believe that personal freedom can be upheld while still making inroads over certain private Property Rights. Where is you believe that theyre intrinsically linked. In these societies with higher wage economy, with more militant demand from the worker movements. What you have we have higher wage demands . You have a push towards capital intensive technology. You have greater rates of firm failure. But this means that they were more dynamic and competitive economies. In the case of nordic countries they were economies that were driven around freetrade. Tariffs and trade are not necessarily a left or right issue. As donald trump has shown. But i think there are times when protecting a key industry is it useful to have a terra from time to time. I think its other times to expose industries taken pettit of pressure. The final thing that im going to say is that when it comes to education system, in the United States weve had a weird mix of private and public. With had the worst of both worlds. There are more costeffective means of Health Insurance. There are many spheres were people on the right agree that it is a monopoly. And i believe we still want competition and innovation, but we can review that with a worker owned control the firms. The real question is what is still particular about the rights of private capitalists do you want to defend . If the argument isnt just about market, but about private ownership and you need to make a case for private ownership as opposed to unleashing the full potential of every working person in america by giving them a proper stake in a place where they spend 4060 hours a week. And i respond quickly. I can see the red my piece in the wall street journal about this three weeks ago. Is an obvious solution and i could not agree more. We need every single American Worker owned a piece, when they become a worker owner is a simple way to do that that would lead to middleclass people having ownership in the companies that they work for, and retiring at a much higher rate of Retirement Benefits than under Social Security. And that is simply to let every single american, you can look this up, its to have an old american plan. That allows every worker under the age of 35 to have 10 of their paycheck, rather than a going to the black hole so security washington. They put it into an individual account that is an index fund that owns every stock in america. We found them ive had this debate with others is a look at so security. What a wonderful product. Its the biggest ripoff for young people ever. We found that the average young person, i think youll subscribe to this idea because you talk about worker capitals a. That means every single american would own companies. They would own fedex, google, apple, ge. We found that the average middleclass american would retire with more than 1 million in their account because of the power of compound interest over 40 years , and then they would have the benefit to bring 23 times higher than Social Security. About that idea . I think ownership implies control. You will find that the swedish so crucial democrats found in the 1970s when they pursued a wage earner fund the capital will reject that plan once it reaches the place where they take that power and turn into democratic control. It does sound like a good starting point, something that i would support, but something that powerful interest to keep america capitalism going would reject. Its actually the liberal democrats who do not want that plan. Not the republicans. President donald trump is interested, paul ryan was interested. They want them to be subservient to the Social Security system. And this is currently the problem that i have. In my opinion, the problem with what youve laid out is that you have this vision that politicians are angels. If they were angels, ive been living in washington for 35 years. I good people for the most part. They have their own interests at stake. And thats why tell young people why would you and you want this and that for free. The most important thing we have in america, you have to treasure, safeguard it. Millions of americans have lost their lives to keep your freedom and liberty. Dont give it to the politicians in washington. Fight for it. And what youre saying we should have these people give up more of their liberty, give away more the decisionmaking to politicians. I dont think that model works out well for the people that you and i both want to help. I want to talk about this idea a little more. More time capitalism and socialism however system the best checks from the worst impulses of human nature, whether its greed, oppression or exploitation . How do you explain how your alternate would address those problems more effectively than capitals and . The starting point is coming with reality the systems at work. Icing the successes of welfare states in europe, and the way which the welfare state that were successful in the postwar boom also ran into roadblocks and problems including declines and Firm Profitability in the late 1960s and 1970s. There are different ways to approach this problem. You could say that the problem was born out of excessive regulations, overly strong unions, and in fact the history of the last 2030 years has been a history of capital being unburdened by those things, and finding new ways to innovate and create wealth. Or you can say like those on the left that is showed a structural contradiction or limit of social democracy. It placed more power in the hands of working people. Capitalist could say that this was working for me in the 50s and 60s im a swedish capitalism i like the fact that there was less strike since we did and i was in france. Im tax a little bit more and theres little bit more regulation, but for the price of industrial peace, and having stable outcomes im able to give this up. What happens when things get tighter . And theres more International Competition and youre not as profitable as you were before. Then you have the ability to withhold investment. We all have one vote where we have different economic power there able to exert this on democrats. I think the solution of going from democratic democracy , we could admit that it works even if we dont think it works as well as a different system. For example if im proposing a social democratic system based on more market competition, maybe your system brings 5 of gdp and mine is a 3. 2 gdp growth. We go from what works and we go from how to take this blackmail away from extra capital. Because we think theres a different system that better outlines the need of a working class people with this broader structure society. Because we think we have a moral and ethical level , that of wage labor being forced to work with someone is a contract signed under duress and its unacceptable. That is a moral and ethical distinction, so if we start from that moral and ethical starting point then we figure out how to alleviate exploitation in ways that dont create new forms of oppression . This is a constant struggle. This is politics. Edmund burke says and i dont often quote him , but saliva that i think is quite apt. The only thing worse than existing tyrannies that failed to overturn that tierney that something that socialists should keep in mind. We have had decades of experience with the state power that hasnt yielded be disastrous outcomes the slow misting movie disaster of 5 gdp growth. I wanted to ask you, talk to my friends on the far left. Their big critique is that they feel that the capitalist system the United States is rigged against them. That is not really a free market. Its exercising their political power, hiring expensive lobbyist and lawyers. Using licensing regimes to block people out of business. What would you do to reform that . Is it even possible within the Current System . Or is it too far gone . We dont have free market capitalist in america. We have more than most countries and thats why people from all of the world want to come here. Even from people from the nordic countries. The fact is you make a good point. What tends to happen is with corporations they get a lot of power , you know this youve written about it. Was the first thing they do . They run to washington for protection. This is why want to divorce politics from business. You make some very good points about the power of these Big Companies, the best way ever regulating that power is through competition. Leading people compete with these big powers and often times you knock them off their perch, and thats a good thing. Ive seen washington , ive seen this sunday times. Ive been in the swamp for 25 30 years. With business you get an alliance between government and big business it is extremely unhealthy and is not free market capitalism. I am for Small Business and capitalism. And i think the way to do it is to let people be free and not let the government make these decisions for us. I might have you start passing up your questions but i have one more question for you. Im halfway through your book and im really enjoying it. I felt the most interesting statements that you said was the equation socialism was stalinism is a common rhetorical tactic its wrong and not only outside of russia. Wanted to give you a chance to address that, its difficult to historically draw distinctions between socialism and the places where its gone hormonally horribly wrong like russia, china, latin america. Can you explain for me what is gone wrong with socialist projects in those places and how that differs from what youre proposing . Fundamentally a lot of the failures that you saw in the soviet union resulted from a few sources, the extreme underdevelopment of russia, a country ravaged by world war, civil war and at a low level of development. It was compounded by a shift towards a tourist collectivization which was based on a misunderstanding of agriculture. And also on a very inept form of Central Planning this combined with the lack of existing free Civil Society, the lack of existing democratic freedoms led to a country where you could say that during the first 2030 years of the soviet union that extreme political repression had a degree of catch up. Eventually had a system as some people put it was all thumbs and no fingers. It was capable of doing certain things like mass of vaccinations or road projects. But it was unable to innovate and stay competitive. And then the fact that there were shortages that were forced to go through political bureaucracy meant that certain decisions were politicized which further enhance the role of bureaucracy. What i reject him capitalism is the role of private capitalist in the soviet union. We mean by unaccountable . A company that is unaccountable . In a capitalist system , what is unaccountable . If im working for you , and im an average worker in the United States. If i dont have a union, i dont have access , very limited access compared to other countries when talks about freedom. If youre expanding freedom for private enterprise , you should be expanding freedom for other workers to join unions as easily as they can. United states we have the solitary strike. Which means if i work in a hotel down the street and on strike, i cant go on strike just for solidarity. All sorts of things like that. Im primarily talking about the point of production. The way in which most of our workplaces are run. I think we can have a system where we have a division of labor. We have a set tasks and differential wages. But where average workers can elect their management to terms. In which we can subject more decisionmaking to collective processes. Just like in the soviet union or china , when theres a famine , without a free Civil Society, news of that famine cannot spread. What happens to wells fargo and other Big Companies when theres malfeasance, and almost destroyed the economy 12 years ago. This couldve been stopped with more democratic transparent companies. But i dont have a problem with use. If you want to join again , i believe in the right of one or basic First Amendment rights. The right of association. So focus want to assemble and collectively bargain with their employer. I am no problem with that whatsoever. I have a big problem with forcing every worker in that company to join the union. Do you think that you are are against the right to work laws . When i showed you the blue states are the red states. The states with forced unionism are crying about is half as many jobs as states without forced unionism. In the context of United States , the right to work laws serve to undermine and enfeeble a Labor Movement that has been assaulted. How . In most countries of the world that have a larger more powerful Labor Movement, in fact certain things that exist in the u. S. Labor dont exist in other countries. Like automatic do dues deduction. Another continue can be covered by the agreement and choose to opt out. There user more engaged they feel part of it. In the United States you would be engaged in forcing workers to join even if they dont want to . I think the act of unionizing should be a one time thing either. The Union Mandate should be continually renewed. In other words i think that as individuals you might not want people to opt out because of certain problems. But that workers should have the chance to advocate with other workers for decertification. To make it easier to unionize like you can other countries. Make it easier to decertify to. With that im going to switch over to the audience questions. To begin with one for steve moore. Someones asking what you think about income inequality . A couple things about this. The focus on income inequality is wrong. Its not the right problem to focus on. The fact that we have bill gates a warm buffet, and people like lebron james who make millions and billions of dollars is not a prom. Bill gates and steve jobs and fred smith , they build great companies. And maybe achieve the American Dream. What is wrong with that . Theyve employed hundreds of thousands of people. And they are awesome. They give back to the communities. There being rich does not make you and i poorer. That is what we love about the Free Enterprise system. I had a conversation with bernie a few weeks ago. He said i became rich by giving people things they wanted. Nobody put a gun and said you have to go to home depot. He had an incredible idea that made everybody better off. I think our focus should be how do we raise the Living Standards of the people the bottom . The American Dream is to get rich. We dont want people to not get rich in the country. And if you were to ask me the 2 3 most important things to do to achieve better economic outcomes for people at the bottom . By far the single most important thing that we have to talk about every single day. Every single child in america, black, white, hispanic, asian, green, yellow. They all should have the opportunity to go to a good school. Why do we tolerate that millions of kids go to these horrible government run schools . Will schools run by . Its the most evil institutions in america. The teachers union. They advocate for themselves and not for the kids. But would you care to respond to that . But yes , by every independent measure , what is the most active country in terms of education in the world . It is finland, and finland Education Minister is literally a marxist. She might a little step to the left. Public schools can be done very well. I was a beneficiary of a Public School system. It was funded by property taxes , it was a system that functioned quite well. There are millions of americans that have access to great Public Schools, and other americans who do not. I think the reason why schools are underperforming has to do with the wider context of poverty. Is difficult to perform well in school if youre going to school hungry. I the problem with our schools is we need more consistent system of federal funding and federal standards for schools. And not this retreat to vouchers which potentially is just a retreat into really small systems of petty hierarchies were certain people have access to better goods than others. Education is one thing we should be universal and equal. I think it should be universal. I think its not fair that i got to go to Great High School when these low income blacks and minors go to these crappy high schools that are horrible. By the way , some of it is clearly family background. No question about that. Kids are grown up in fatherless homes have severe disadvantages, which the welfare state is the other reason we have so much poverty in america. It created poverty. It did not alleviate poverty. I would say this. We have great evidence that when you take those same kids , ive worked with a lot of those kids in wash dc. Who weve given vouchers to to go to catholic schools, jewish schools, private schools they do very well their performance, i remember when the kids who i got to know very well , by the way the only program many years that barack obama wanted to get rid of was a Voucher Program for low income people in washington, dc. Island with the black parents said to me why is barack obama want to get rid of this program . His kids go to the best schools in the country. They said why should my kids be able to go to that school . He said by the way barack obama will lose the Public Housing too. We should give everybody an opportunity. Why should only rich people be able to go to those schools . But any child should be able to go to school with the same object. The culture of poverty missed is largely a myth. Think about the example of finland. Finland is a country that completely banned private education. If youre catholic, muslim, whatever you teach your kid religion after 4 pm when youre home. And thats a system i am in favor. You are in favor of banning private schools . What im in favor of high quality Public Education and i believe that there is a sphere for religion and that is in Civil Society and private life. Just like im not in favor of kevin schools in United States. Im getting quite a few questions for you about if were trying to collect divisive or increase in Public Ownership or ownership of Business Private industry. What would that look like and what would happen to people who resist this . In your book youre talking about example of a pasta Bottle Company for the sauce. But there are winners and losers in any transformation. But they need to be carried out by democratic means, with respect to their inalienable rights. Whether you like it or not, i would say theres a possibility within the next 1015 years in this country, 50 of our gdp the private Health Insurance industry could be socialized and turn in a medicare for all. Thats a large chunk of economy and a big shift. If you work at one of these Companies Come usually worried about your job and that transition. That is why Bernie SandersHealth Care Plan which i think of all the Democratic Candidates is the most serious in taking these issues headon has a clause about Just Transition for workers in the sectors as well. If you have private Health Insurance, your life my going from being spectacularly wealthy to be middleclass like the rest of us. The ideas that there are few losers in this process. The losers arent being thrown into debtors prison. These losers are instead knocked down a few pegs to the level of everyone else. There far more or have a lower Life Expectancy than our peers in other industrial countries. I have to address the issue of health care, i think its a mythology. Number one, yeah, we have big problems in the way we pay for health care. But ladies and gentlemen, we have by far the best Health Care System, medical care system in the world. Bar none. How do we know . Kings, and political leaders all over the world, when they get sick, where do they come . They come here. The quality of care in the United States is exceptional. The other point is, hook, if you look at the 80 the last 80 blockbuster drugs that have come on the market that have dealt with all sorts of horrible crippling diseases sometimes fatal diseases, like 60 of them have been developed here in the United States of america. How is it that the socialist countries have low costs . They free ride on our system. So if we went to a socialized system, the problem is whos going to develop the next generation of, you know, the drugs and vaccines to deal with ms, lou gehrigs disease, alzheimers, and all these things, even on medicare, medicare costs lower, you guys at the journal have done great editorials on this. Its true medicare costs lower per patient than people in the private system, do you know why . Because theres a cost shift. Medicare shifts the cost on to the private insurance market. So youre not going to save by putting everybody in the medicare system. Who do you shift the extra costs to . The cost gose up not down. Yes with have problems with our Health Care System and its true costs are are rising at a dramatic level but i would say its because of too much government not too little. One thats question before we wrap this up. Ill ask it to you and then ill ask a different variation of the question to you. But on the left, there seems to b especially with people that have a divide, people who think its pure hi about economic disparity and people who think its about gender and race. And many of these other ways that it plays out in the system. What is your opinion about that . Where do you stand on that debate . And what is your solution to greater equity . Well, as a socialist, i oppose oppression of all types. I think its obvious if youre talking about the conditions of lets say black americans in this country, and youre talking about giving these people more economic power, more rights. Youre talking about readies tri butting power from large corporations, readies tri butting wealth through various programs, and that involves class. I think its very obvious to me that class is the underlining thing, the conditions that a lot of our life. I think its obvious that even most people in this room i would imagine that a lot of your life outcomes are determined by how much cash you have in your pocket. I think there are deeper struggles against oppression that well need to fight over many years. But i think class is the most important underlining thing and beyond that, its a galvinizing glue that can unite people across this country. And i think you cant build a Political Coalition if youre going to say that 35 of the country, roughly, white males, are all the enemy. That seems like a sure fire way to ensure some sort of republican majority. Theres a quote from bella hooks and it goes Something Like of course you say you want women to be equal to men, but men arent equal to men. And i think the democratic socialist ideal is a society in which we all ban together and unite and move forward and not just argue over who has it worse or better off. Thats politics represented by Bernie Sanders and by others who could actually win a majority of this country. And not just further kind of divide up the electoral map. And i guess my variation on that question to you would be for better or for worse, the discussion on the left right now is about inequity. And specifically how inequity effects people from different racial or gender groups, whats the capitalist answer to that problem . How do you defend it and bring people back on board on the right . Government has my friend Walter Williams who has written a great book about the state against blacks. And if you want a great answer to your question, they should read that book. Thats all sorts of government, you know, policies, where does slavery come from . Slavery wasnt a private sector, slavery came from government. Where did jim crow laws come from . They come from government. As Walter Williams would say, probably the single worst thing that ever happened to the black family, he would say, the black family survived slavery, survived jim crow laws, all sorts of discrimination laws, the one thing the black family could not survive was the welfare state and the welfare state has probably been the biggest single detriment black advancement in this country. And you dont want to replace fathers with a safe. And thats what we did. This has been a great debate. And i appreciate your comments. I learned a lot from them. He did a great job. That was really good. I wrote a book ten years ago called its Getting Better all the time. Its the history of the thats 100 years. And what you find, if you want to get the book, its a picture book, you can look at the statistics, whats happened in terms of health, environmental improvement. Not just Economic Advancement for people at the top, but the big story of the last hundred years has been the Economic Advancement of the people at the bottom. If you have to be poor, the United States is a pretty good place to be poor in. The average poor person has a Living Standard significantly higher than the average Living Standard of middle class people in most countries yes where he have to do a better job dealing with the people least among us. I think freedom and free market capitalism is the way to do it. One of the things that strikes me. When i persuade people of the benefits of free market capitalism. Whats so striking is how many kids who come up to me after im done speaking and they say they and they say you know what, these are the immigrants who came into this country from other countries. And they say i dont understand my colleagues, why do they want socialized medicine and socialized education and all these things they say i came to this country to get away from those policies, lets not chase the losers, lets do it the right way. We have two minutes left. Id love to give you a chance for chosing thoughts. One interesting thing about debates that i have on the right. And i do appreciate the debate. And i appreciate the invitation is that often people with more libertarian inclinations are are of the opinion that theyve been losers in this kind of battle. That the u. S. Has a large welfare state that it has onerous regulations and the last decade since the new deal, weve been a tale of kind of free market enterprise, running against the barriers of this welfare state for those of us in the socialist left, we think about the last hundred plus years of American History as a history of an under developed welfare state, which isnt universal. Which actually has lots of inefficiencies in part because we mean test and do things we dont do in other countries. Instead of having one party rooted in the Labor Movement or working class like they do in other countries and another party rooted in industrialist or Christian Democratic Party and so on. We have what some call the most enthusiastic capitalist party on the planet and the second most enthusiastic capitalist party on the planet. So i mean i think thats one interesting thing. For me, the solution to a lot of our problems, but not all of our problems as a society involves guaranteeing a bedrock of social rights. Which can be done efficiently through the use of a universal state that is still governed by certain norms and rules and so on. This wouldnt be a guaranteed outcome of efficiency or a better life of people. But i think it can be a starting point. Now, beyond that, certain things government can do well, theres other sectors in which we want more competition, where we need things to keep us going. The question is twofold. What should the price of this failure be. If youre a worker at a firm that is moving into a new sector and you fail and your innovation fails, then what should happen to you . I think you should bounce on this net of the welfare state, retrain to active labor market policies and go to other sectors. I think this is in many ways why the systems that you saw in order i can countries were more effective from the standpoint of economic efficiency in the 60s and 70s. And part of the pressure pushing us in this direction was strong unions, near universal unionization and high wage demands. American capitalists and big corporations to much extent can afford to be lazy because they have a small they have low wage come may sent workers. Complacent workers without rights and guarantees that are pushing them to be more dynamic. So what i would say fundamental hi is that we can have a society in which we secure a bedrock of social rights and we can tie this to worker ownership in production. And worker ownership means not just Share Holding but electing your board, taking home not just a fixed salary but dividends and i think this is the kind of society we want. This is a true ownership society. But it means asking questions about the nature of freedom and the nature of democracy that libertarians dont want to ask. Were going to unfortunately have to leave it at that. I want to give a huge thanks to you guys for staying and listening and great thanks to both panelists for this important discussion. [ applause ] map. Next a confirmation hearing for Ryan Mccarthy to become army secretary. News and policy issues that impact you, coming up friday morning, were getting your reaction to the third democratic president ial debate. Join the conversation all morning with your phone calls, emails, facebook comments, and tweets. Then Award Winning documentary film maker, ken burns talks about his latest project for pbs on the history of country music. Watch cspans washington journal live at 7 00 eastern friday morning. Saturday on book tv at 11 00 p. M. Eastern, Supreme Court associate justice, neil gorsuch discusss his book, a i public if you can keep it. Then on sunday at 9 00 eastern on afford, in his latest book, sentinel incorporated. Journalist ben westhoff reports on how labs in china manufacture the drug. Interviewed by New HampshireDemocratic Congress woman, anne mcclain custer. Founding cochair of the Bipartisan Opioid Task force. In the old day, if you were a scientist at a university, you published your paper and it went into some university library, pretty obscure, hard to find. But in the internet age, all of these papers were published on headline. And public publicly available any where around the world. Exactly. Soring chemists began looking for these files specifically for these papers to go through this them and appropriate the chemical formulas to learn how to make these new drugs. At 10 00 eastern, oregon democratic senator jeff merkley provides his account of u. S. Migrant families at the border. In his book america is better than this. Hundreds of boys separated from their parents were being warehoused in a walmart. So i wanted to find out about it. And they decided they didnt want me to see what was going on. And they instead called the police. And the video went viral. And suddenly, all of america was hearing about cages and secret warehousing of migrant children. Watch book tv every weekend on cspan 2. Heres a look at our live coverage friday. On cspan at 10 00 a. M. Eastern, a discussion about countering irans i he it is financial networks. With assistant treasure secretary for terrorist financing, marshal billings hi. In the morning on cspan 2, House Republicans will hold a News Conference in baltimore where theyre meeting for the second day of their annual policy retreat. Then later the u. S. Institute of peace hosts a discussion on the u. S. Taliban Peace Process and the potential for sustainable talks in the future. And on cspan 3, the Pew Charitable trust talks about the importance of federal state coordination during a recession. And the over all Economic Outlook at 8 45 00 a. M. Eastern