Events today. We will be talking to the audience about the administrative looked in running universities, the deepening ideological sku of faculties is abrogating aggravating the problem. And enrollment is already starting to decline because of demographic reasons in the issue of the Overland College dispute were gives his bakery was awarded 44 million in damages which is a very exciting thing and is people are beside themselves in Overland College, one of his cover cousins went to overland and turned her into a of communist. Marxist communist. Steve hayward is a senior fellow of the institute of Governmental Affairs at uc berkeley and of course the senior fellow at pri and i heard him back in 1991 so he was the second higher. He was the first conservative professor in the program in university of colorado boulder. The most exciting thing about steve is hes one of the people behind powerline. The best thing on saturday morning is the weekend pictures. We are in hysterical looking at the weekend pictures and if you havent that she must. We were all with Larry Silverman and john and corsica for one of johns conferences which was great fun. He also worked for a Supreme Court justice, clarence thomas. He is a distinguished chair at the university of trento, the university of chicago, chapman university. He has written several books and hails from philadelphia. When his wife doesnt want to go on trips his mother is keen to go and they are going to machu picchu in peru soon. Please welcome our two panelists. Dr. Steven hayward and prof. John yoo. [ applause ] i think we are just using this one. It is live, okay. I thought we would have a bit of a conversation. I will throw out initial propositions and we will have back and forth, you can throw out your own propositions and we will take some questions from the audience and see where those. Sal gave me a few headlines and i think i will dilate them slightly. So be on the headlines i think are, lets put it this way. One of mild mentors used to have a lot of insufficient paranoia which says no matter how bad you think things are its in very the case that when you look closely find out things are even worse than you thought so with administrative looked people think thats was running up the cost of universities. The number of administrators and thats true. However there is a second part of it which is, and there has been work on this that has made the press even the New York Times, the administrators tend to be even worse than faculty when it comes to deranged radicalism because a lot of these deans of diversity and inclusion, remember diversity at a College Campus means people look different but think the same. A lot of them are drawn from politicized and ideological apartments. Your average college deliverable professor is relatively sane compared to a lot of administrators and is especially true at private arts colleges. If you are not following the verdict closely you may be wondering why did the court find a private college liable for the actions of student off campus . One of the chief reasons was the dean of students and advisor to the president participated actively in the student protest. Passed out their flyers, sent incriminating emails about how awful the bakery was in reinforced harassment about totally bogus charges. The nice thing about america is we still have trial by jury and the jury in ohio didnt take too kindly about this. I think the remedy, and i will come back to this in a couple of minutes, just about every university ought to fire half of their administrators. It wouldnt matter which have. Things would get her right away if you fire half your administrators. There are a few universities that have announced cutbacks in administrative positions and the reason for that is declining enrollment. We are already seeing a decline in enrollment putting downward pressure on tuition. We havent seen colleges cut the stickel price Sticker Price but the price you pay is falling fast and thats going to get worse for demographic reasons. Think back 10 or 11 years ago in the world comes to an end with the financial crisis. What happened then . The birth rate fell quite a lot so the pool of young people that colleges need is starting down and really going to go off of a cliff in for five years. The colleges know this so that will put more downward pressure on tuition, and that will make a lot of them have to say we cant afford these administrators so we will see. I hope thats what happens. In the second thing is we have a lot of good data showing that college and universal universal faculties always had a quotient of visual radicalism. If they wreck a few english departments thats better than having them out on the feet. On the street. Their borders are porous and sometimes these streak out. Pres. Obama snuck out of law professor and next thing you know hes president of the united states. 15 or 20 of the faculty overall, you can find one two or three and most of the social science is an humanities. That number has dwindled dramatically, cut by about two thirds. The reasons for that are complicated and disputed but the point is that colleges or even more of an echo chamber than theyve ever been. The more that people with a common opinion especially in ideological opinion spend together, the more radical they get. The more narrowminded they get which is why you see repeated instances of College Instances of a student or faculty and visitor speaker that strikes anyone is utterly unreasonable. Completely insane and off the hook, so thats a big problem. It has two components consequences. One that is obvious and well known and one less so. If you know the number of students majoring in humanities and social sciences has also been plummeting. The number of history majors is falling off of a cliff, english, philosophy, but Political Sciences holding its own. Economics is the one exception and the one where you find the most libertarians, conservatives, and nonleftist professors. I think theres a connection. A lot of people are are saying people are majoring in history because they are more concerned about getting a job. They want to study stems subjects and economics. There may be some truth although theres a reason to dispute the finding. I think its because of the increasingly radical, sent of those departments simply turn off a lot of students. The majority of students were not radical themselves and by the way the majority of students are not. Most describe themselves as moderate to an extent. A really curious thing is happening that i think is a canary in the coal mine. At a number of prominent universities, columbia, mit, have applied to change official classification. Its a funny thing i didnt know existed. It has to do with bureaucratic ways of Higher Education so economic departments reclassify themselves as stem fields like Engineering Physics or chemistry. Why are they doing that . Part of it is even liberal economists look around at the other social sciences and say we dont want to be in the as with all these loons. Wed rather be in a more rigorous part of the university. Thats the canary in the coal mine. You are seeing a defect or divorce and universities taking place especially big research universities. We are moving toward a situation where you are going to have a university of stems subjects, economics, business, prelaw and humanities, gripping social sciences which will wither and die and everyone will understand they are all crazy people. No one will want to fewer students will want to be in those departments. That will be an interesting one. Finally i will mention a couple of remedies and provoke john i hope. Ive mentioned firing administrators. One thing to do is to figure out ways to create competition within universities. I know a lot of you are familiar with things like the Hoover Institution at stanford and the Madison Center at. Arizona State University set up its own new school on economic thought and political thought independent of traditional departments and now has a competitive curriculum and the faculty are not happy about that but the Legislature Said this is going to happen, so thats nice. Another idea is maybe someone needs to step up and start a new university or two, a prestigious university. We havent seen Something Like that and stash and we can talk about that sum. I do think the craziest idea but the one that is the most really unconventional, and thats something they may take up just to scare people. What is this fixation with a bachelors degree . Why dont we create some alternative way of certifying that someone is educated and capable like the cpa exam . So that you can take alternative methods of education, online classes, study on your own, the Kim Kardashian approach to passing the bar exam. Maybe. We should experience with these. Heart of the story as the cartel and the nature of college is reinforcing that, youre nothing if you dont have a ba will create some competitive avenue. A lot use mechanisms to show they have the discipline to complete a course of study and thats not bad but maybe we should be bolder than that. I will stop there and see if you want to add a contest or whatever. Thank you steve and sally. Getting steve to join berkeley was probably the only thing ive done on behalf of ideological diversity other than continuing to exist and not leave the campus. You be the judge of whether it has been successful. I quite agree with the diagnosis. Im not a scholar of Higher Education and policy so i think im here more because im like robinson crusoe. How did he survive and what lessons can we draw by looking at how he made it on the Desert Island . Im very happy to share stories and lessons but everything ive seen from being one of the few conservatives comports with everything steve gave in his diagnosis. I think i read a figure that for every one new person universities are adding or than 10 administrators in the last 20 or 30 years. There has been a huge rise in tuition often subsidized through cheap student loans. Universities are not using those to add profession professors. Better dorms, there are several universities that have added amusement next to the campuses. I always thought that eating bad food was part of the college experience. I would not have met my wife because we had to go off campus to eat. One thing i would emphasize that steve did not emphasize as much but i think you mentioned it, one of the main problems with Higher Education is the elevation of identity politics racial diversity and gender diversity above all other vowels values. If you look at what the university was before, and its not like this came late. This is where it started in the spreading to other parts of society. A Great University like berkeley or another like stanford [ laughter ] just teasing. The best professors were not the teachers. We want excellence and are teaching students who would be around them to learn how to take their place. Most of that has been replaced by a desire to meet gender and racial diversity goals of course universities are going to suffer. At overland it wasnt just an administrator. There were a lot of faculties which had done nothing wrong from the case that i read. Where are all the bureaucrats being hired in diversity and inclusion . At berkeley we spend many millions of dollars on racial and diversity bureaucracy. That could put about 50 undergraduates for you through berkeley and its that we are choosing to spend taxpayer money on gender and racial diversity issues and i think thats the tip of the iceberg. Every school, every department has an officer paid to do this every time you have a search. You have to write a report about how it meets how it meets goals. Scandals in college emissions now, look at Harvard College. One or two people came up to me who secretly admitted they had gone to Harvard College like i did. I cant believe the amount of distortions that has gone on just to hit racial diversity goals. Take asian students in particular. Of the five criteria students are measured ons personality were they not only rank at the bottom. No stereotypes there. He admitted most had never been interviewed by a harvard admissions officer. It will come as no surprise to 1,000,000,000 1 2 people and another 1 billion that may be eating our economic lunch. What do you do about it . Steves idea of disassociating what i think is true in terms of diagnosis, universities can prosper in this world because what they are selling is a credential used by businesses to hire because it shows that students can crawl through the mud and crap of universities and they can persevere. They can do anything a corporation wants them to do. Michael spence won the nobel prize for developing a theory about what education actually is. Why do we over fund these left wing universities who are a credentialing function . Thats move the credentialing function by self. I know they do things like this in germany and im not sure its a good idea. But inspired by being one of the few conservatives at law school. We have the federal society and law schools. Shes alive as well, she didnt get killed off by anybody. This is a debating club that brings conservative ideas to law school. Libertarian and conservative ideas. Yale was the only time i heard about school yet and thomas, federal Society Events and not in class. One thing we could do is rather than complain about bureaucrats and how much money the university is spending, create programs to bring speakers and visiting faculty to at least expose some students to conservative ideas and get a debate going. For those of you who donate to schools the best thing you can do, we want to support alma maters but you dont have to give a blank track check to say spend on a lazy river water part to attract the best students. Give money and focused ways to bring conservative speakers to campus. They will be more reset to hearing conservative ideas and will actually hear them. This is where the universities have to step up. In a setting where there is no right police are not going to allow people so scared a few different ideas that they actually want to engage in violence. Unfortunately berkeley witnessed two of those and it has beens writing all over the countrys. If you want to give money to universities say im going to give money to the Campus Police depart to protect conservative speakers. That would be the most effective donation that you can give. I do want to say because its true, that berkeley will never live down the long reputation going back to the Free Speech Movement before. However berkeley is actually quite a bit better especially in a lot of these liberal arts colleges like oberland, Sarah Lawrence or sam abrams, or harvard you behaved disgracefully. When the less said they are going to shut down and schapiro she said no youre not. The school is running a deficit. She said i will spend whatever it takes to make sure his free speech rights are vindicated. It ended up being boring and dull. One of the problems with the campus is its hard to secure. It has porous borders and i showed up and realized the night before he was going to show up at 2 00 in the morning the truck installed jersey barriers around the perimeter to have crowd control and brought out the immense police force. They were darn sure they were not going to have a repeat and good for that. And the left on campus was very mad for spending the money. We hit schapiro because right. So good for her. The conservatives do get some blame here. Not responsible conservatives but they invite someone like a milo or ann coulter, to stick it in the face of campus. They want to get the most outrageous, most flagrantly provocative person. If students of the left invited nations from islam to speak. I think conservatives should try to aim for ben schapiro, more responsible, people who arent just there who would like there to be a riot. The problem is they benefit as well. They have an interest in their being a riot. I would like to see it d a Heather Mcdonnell or steve hayward, engaging in a debate with the other side. Theres a good book 7 or eight years ago called becoming right. How campuses shape Young Conservatives by two sociologist which means they are totally clueless, but they interviewed students at two campuses. Harvard and university of colorado boulder but they also talk about places like santa barbara, ohio state, you name it. I will restate the question. Why is it that you will get conservative students who want to have milo or ann coulter at a place like altar but not yale or harvard or princeton . Its not just because those are elite ivy league schools. Its because they have the key was conservatism. You have the medicine center. The beckley program at yale which has a speaker every week. By the way the reason why, theyve been growing like crazy. After that ridiculousness at yale lots of alumni quit getting money to college and give it to the buckley program. I went there tons last year. The point is for students who have no conspicuous conservatism its understandable that they want to give, the way i put it, the middle finger to the campus. Milo is a way to do that. Conservatives at other universities are less interested in the provocative model. They are interested in having serious debate and now have a home. They dont feel isolated. We are trying to replicate it in a small way but even though and i think everythings going to break down and we are fighting a losing battle to maintain the idea that we should study the best thats ever been written and try to advance the frontiers of knowledge, its hard to see Training University is around immediately. People bring conservative speakers to campus and having been at the berkeley campus, i just finished my 25th year. I cant figure out a way to turn this ship around. Theyve added another generator and have turbocharged into the wilderness. I dont know if we can prevent the direction things are going. I have the attitude of a late hungarian friend of mine who lived by the adage, things are serious but not yet bad. That may be too optimistic. Perfect timing. A couple of thoughts. The good thing about human nature is that its on our side and that manifests itself in a couple of ways. Almost all students grow up and start paying taxes. Thats a sobering moment. Usually its an educational moment. Not for all of them, but for some. The other is, in my experiences, usually its the brightest of the left students, are actually eager to learn something else. They are kind of tired of the conformity of the left. You arent going to turn around but i dont takes much to create a different dynamic. That has been my experience. The most fun students that ive had are the liberals who told me directly they want to hear something else. At some point ive got to write an article. Most conservative academics, its not your ideology, its the manner and method of teaching in the classroom that is different. Its not universally true but i would say for half if not more. Theres a lot to that student but even liberal students understand and see that. I dont think my standard line about this, i think this is true in a larger sense, one of us is worth 20 of them. So we dont need very many of us to have an effect on Good Students serious about education and humanities. I will give you one angle. Ive been thinking for the longest time of writing and article that i would call one share for church hill. The name is faded but he was that crazy guy for chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department who got caught saying the people in the twin towers of 9 11 were little eichmanns of capitalism who deserved it. He got fired for that, not for being crazy but they said it was plagiarism and found out his scholarship wasnt any good. Okay. They fired him because he was an embarrassment to the university. The last thing people want is one of the reasons they flock to radicalized departments, critical theory and gender studies, for all of their jargon and ideology they are asking the basic question what is justice . They do engage the passions of students in a way that Political Science courses in sociology dont. A lot of what you get is regression modeling. One thing a lot of conservatives are good at his education the oldfashioned way that talks to students and that the competition not just ideological but stylistic. Maybe thats too much. Being a professor of law school we dont want anything to do with anybodys souls. We are trying to beat that out of them actually. The soulless profession of law, sure. Its interesting you see the hope in students because i worry about the faculty from an internal perspective. When i was hired there are what i would call new deal liberals, professors who were liberal but thought lets have diversity we can agree with, ideological diversity because it was fun to have people with lots of different views. Socrates and plato, they dont want all the people to all think like them. You want to advance ideas by having critical examinations by as many views as possible. I think disappearing if it hasnt wholly disappeared from other departments. In a lot of these social sciences and humanities depart you have people who dont believe in diversity. They wont hire conservatives. When i retire which will be when i die many years in the future i hope, because they are not getting me out of there, although if there was a good buyout i would think about it. I would be shocked if they replaced me with another conservative. I think the faculty believe that what they are doing with diversity is the right answer so you would never have people who think the wrong thing. The right thing these days is racial and gender diversity. The students are hungry for lots of different opinions but at the same time i think you see faculties constrict but are considered legitimate points of view and arguments for faculty and scholarship. I see a couple of hands in the back but im going to let you pick them. I saw the first hands in the back. That seems to be the most active table. Helen you must have gotten into it about something. My name is marianne and a propos of university. My late uncle who was at mit and at the in sicily said the International Students office at mit has as many as midas traitors as the whole eth and that was in the 50s. The second thing i would like to say, i do challenge mr. Hayward on one thing, that english professors cant do that much damage there than on the street. The problem is inning professor at uc davis who basically told the students to go kill policeman. Right. This guy hasnt been fired. The third thing i would like to say is i witnessed a student from high School Getting a scholarship by a republican amendments group. I as a teacher think the essay was about a third grade essay. My comment about english, its not a big price to pay about to keep radicals off the street i was being somewhat facetious. The stronger counterargument is actually that its no longer confined to crazy english and dutch department. I guess there is some website or algorithm, im not sure what. It can sweep the entire text of every New York Times article the last 20 years. They select certain words and see how often they are used. All of the jargon of the Higher Education lefties, like intersection audi, white supremacy, the last three years, all of the graphs skyrocketed. A lot of people from these departments have graduated and been hired by the New York Times right . We know they are hired at facebook and twitter and thats why they are censoring people. In one of the Youtube Channels taken down it was a High School Teacher who used the hitler area era to teach and they took that down. It was a history teaching tool and they took it down from youtube because they are idiots. Why are the idiots . Because they marinade marinate in this stuff. To the extent that it was true that all of the silliness was confined to the classrooms and crit kids would graduate and go get jobs and be more sensible theres less reason to think that i want to defend steve a little bit and this doesnt happen often, but i think you referenced there is this deal, or not feel that strongly an understanding, you see this diversity push taking place in the softer disciplines where its harder to observe who or who is good or bad as a scholar. I think you really dont see this in physics, in the sciences. Administrators im sure are constantly demanding it but i dont think you see this level of demand for diversity or the demand for a limitation in the hard science is. If that happened i would become worried about the quality of our universities. If you look at International Rankings despite everything we are saying, the american universities are far and away better than any other in the world. But i think a lot of that has to do with performance of our cards science departments winning nobel prizes, continuously making discoveries that lead to innovations and i dont think they are ranking world universities based on the quality of english faculties or history department. So one of the things that gives me great confidence is when i review the application of foreign students and we get thousands from china. Every time i see a Chinese Students transcript and see marxist, leninist thought one required class, marxistleninist number two, required class, i say maybe we will stay ahead of them for a few centuries of every student in chinas forest. But i thought maybe berkeley will start requiring those in american universities as well then the great advantages going to disappear. I would like to weigh in on what seems to be your conflation of racially inspired admission and gender inspired admission as though they are coat equal evils. Im here to tell you i have a daughter who graduated with honors and is doing astronomically well on her own. However, she was bitterly disappointed when she was rejected from cornell and uc berkeley, so theory of experimentation, she took Summer School courses taught my by cornell and she got an a . Beat up everyone in the class. At berkeley she got an a in chemistry and the professor came up to her and said my dear i dont know where you go to college but i will personally write a letter of recommendation for you to come to uc berkeley. And my daughter stood up 58 tall and said ive already been rejected by uc berkeley once. You will not have the opportunity to do it again. There will be individual cases where you are going to see discrimination. Im not saying discrimination occurred occurred. I think that berkeley would love to have more women students and faculty if they could. I would that, this is a longer story but i think what has happened is weve moved away from a system as we think is a meritocratic system and courses, and have totally moved away to a system of holistic evaluation of applicants which im afraid is really just a cover to allow Admissions Officers to consider raise. Second, look at the other scandal we havent talked about which is the one about buying your way into college by suddenly finding a prodigy in your family a ceiling prodigy for high schools that dont have sailing teams. Of course it was usc. Stanford. Berkeley has not been involved yet. I just like teasing competitor schools. To me what that shows is not that these things go on. It shows that when you move off of a meritocratic system based off of test scores and grades and anything counts, you are going to have all kinds of gaming of the system. These people were just more obvious that it because they bribed people but youre going to start having lots of competition flow into other areas. Hes going to better, who will be better at sending the kids to third world countries to be really good at a sport or an art . Its going to be wealthier people. So the unfortunate thing i think is this new system of admissions that these schools are moving to, the university of chicago doesnt use sat scores anymore which i find incredible. The university of chicago of all places. Once these schools move away from a meritbased system of emission admission you will have all kinds of abuses and unexplainable results. Admissions officers are using this as a cover for social engineering. I will add that it has been true for several years that were women then and are going to college. Its more skewed a private liberal arts college where it sometimes 6040 men and second or third year liberal arts colleges back east, theres 1 million of them. They really have a struggle. They are terrified of going below the ratio. Less to a place like berkeley which gets 120,000 applications a year for 11,000 spots. Go be on the aggregate numbers. I think its true now that women outnumber men in law school nationwide. I think they are close even in Business Schools but then you go to the professional degree programs. Education masters and above an education, phd, 80 women. And then you go down the scale, physics engineering chemistry, its 20 women and you can see 80 of education and you arent supposed to talk about these things. We are embarrassed about it. But i know women who are stellar and science and say we may as well just play that game. Not that game. Take advantage of that. I know one young lady professor at a prestigious Engineering Department in iowa. Shes upper tenure and called me up and says im getting some opposition. She had written an oped article on the scientific journals of hydrology and fancy stuff and calls me up and says the dean said there is trouble with my tenure review and approval because i wrote one article about Climate Change that wasnt following the orthodoxy. I said you go to the dean and tell him i know all the science departments what women professors. If you dont want to give me tenure let me know now let me know and i will get on the phone and have another job by 5 00 as afternoon. Anyhow, good luck to your daughter on people like that. Sorry one more back here. In reference to the admissions scandal, how do you see all of this Going Forward with the decline of enrollment . Do you see more of this kind of abuse or do you see this correcting . Give us your prediction please. The harvard admissions case, theres another companion case, the Pacific Legal foundation is bringing on behalf of students in new York Public Schools because the mayor is trying to introduce racial quotas for the magnet schools in new york city. Something they used to do in lowell high. There are two cases moving forward. I think the Supreme Court will eventually take one of the two and there are at least four justices who would vote to strike down race in college emissions. Its quite bizarre as a matter of Supreme Court precedent that race can only be used by the government when it has the most compelling interests and is basically the only way you can achieve that interest. The only two areas the court has recognized this can happen is wartime and college admissions. Such an anomaly, and i think Justice Oconnor and Justice Kennedy said it was a opinion. I think its an anomaly of an aberration and i think these five justices assuming chief Justice Roberts votes the way he has which is a never guarantee these days, i assume if those justices vote distantly that they would use one of those cases to strike down use of race which i think would be a good turning point to restoring, turning the direction of the ship toward meritocratic University Systems had we get meritocracy . That was the creation years ago. Then we woke up one day and said racial and ethnic and gender distributional results im not happy with. Take those more fundamental problems seriously enough. Whats happening is there have always been exceptions. The legacy admissions at elite schools, athletes, musicians, people in drama, and then you can exploit that i like the phrase the side door, by bribing the ceiling coach at stanford. The public reaction has been not surprising to me, you might see the liberal elite establishment is rethinking the idea of meritocracy directly. There are people openly speaking baby meritocracy is not the way the institution should be structured and organized and i think is its going to create chaos. I dont think it will be good i was wondering if you could comment on the work that Mitch Daniels is doing at purdue and his reform and how he has been able to control costs, get bureaucracy under control. If thats not a sign of hope for improvement. He has been there for what, 10 years maybe . Tuition has not gone up a single dollar. So what did he do . He does exactly what you will respect expect a republican politician to do. He said we dont need to buy new desks. We dont need cars that half are not used half the time. Sold off assets, all these kinds. Not hiring lots of people. I had one very brief curriculum reforms and what not, is trying to bring insensible to all. That ought to be a model and sooner or later people will wake up to that by necessity. So i think you are absolutely right that the departure from meritocracy is responsible for recent admissions scandal involving rick and the claims of bias against at harvard, so what would require the admissions process to be transparent so that it was clear to the public just how the selection was being made which might push towards a more mayorbased process . Or is it hopeless to think that the admissions process can be made transparent in this country . You know what i want to do . Im going to watch peoples has exploded. For elite places like harvard and yale lets set a baseline to be a qualified applicant. Whatever the test score might be you can also allow room for by the way i myself am, i am not uncomfortable with some aspects of holistic consideration. Maybe a bad school but good test scores, or you dont test well but you have great recommendations from teachers and you see this person may be able to do the work. Anyway. You get a qualified pool of people and then you admit them by lottery. Lets do that. The universities dont want to do that. Heart of legacy admissions is from the harvard discovery process. This person gets flagged because their parents are donors or will be big donors. Its wholly corrupt. If i am a minority and you have hardly any minorities at harvard 50 years ago, you say wait a minute. That is an unjust privilege. So thats why i say im not uncomfortable with some ways of trying to puzzle this out. It had its problems but lets go to the lottery system as the endgame and its a lot more honest. This crazy idea, having a lottery . It could be like powerball. You could just have drawings on television. I think dan is right. When berkeley could do is take names in identifying data off of the files and have the confidence to say here are all the people that we admitted. If we are so proud of the values theyll never do it. If i was an admission officer i would use meritocratic data, sat scores and course performance and correct for socioeconomics because as steve said, some people have different obstacles to face in terms of quality schooling. And if universities think that being a good sailor should put you in a professional class admit that. That would be interesting. Like purdue could do this. The one thing universities are as Higher Education is a market