Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Transportation Subcommittee Hearing On School Bus Safety 20240714

Tsb. Captioning performed byc captioning performed by vitac i do. I think thats a perfect example of one of the incentives that the federal government could use to provide increased Safety Measures for kids on school buses. Right. And back to ms. Poland. In your investigation of the oakland bus fire, you noted that the School Bus Engine designs often failed to mitigate the spread of gases into the passenger compartment. That can exacerbate a situation involving a fire, but can you speak to whether or not these fumes can regularly enter into the passenger compartment even in the absence of a fire . Our investigation, of course, focused on the postcrash fire this that event and when there was that significant fire in the engine compartment how the incomplete fire wall led to the fire being able to spread into the passenger compartment. Can you comment on the entrance of fumes into the bus cavity . The ntsb currently does not have a position on that aspect. Okay. Thank you. I yield back, madam chair. Thank you very much. Mr. Garcia. Mr. Gallagher. Thank you. Ms. Poland, we have introduced hr 2416 the safe to drive act which would direct the department of transportation to use some money already appropriated for grants combating distracted driving to new grants for the same purpose but which would be easier to qualify for. To what extent does the national Highway Traffic Safety Administration see distracted driving especially from cellphone use affecting the safety of school buses . So the ntsb has commonly looked at distraction and, in fact, this has been an item on our most wanted list for many years. Distraction can come from a variety of different forms and we focused on distraction for School Bus Drivers. Of course, in all of the discussions youre hearing today we think that oversight of the drivers is critical and thats dealing with the actions of the driver, including medical fitness and some of the many other aspects, but also theres Technological Solutions if there is distraction involved that we can mitigate the effects of a crash before they happen or even make that crash less vulnerable to the occupants inside. As you look at the data just crashes over i mean, take your time period. Has there been a consistent primary factor that has contributed to School Bus Crashes over the last several years or is each case just unique such that you cant establish a trend . Or is the sample size not large enough . So the ntsb typically investigates extremely severe crashes that may not be represented of all crashes, but obviously theres a wide variety of causes and thats why we look at different recommendations to address those countermeasures. So youre hearing some of those today from proper oversight of the drivers to technological interventions to also increasing the time to evacuate in postcrash events such as fires or water immersion. The question for you or anyone on the panel that wants to take a swing, to what extent do we think overall congestion on the roads, increasing congestion which obviously would vary regionally, locally, is creating more safety concerns . So, for example, i have a bill that would allow logging trucks access to highways to get them off local roads which i view as an environmentally friendly and safety thing. Its easier to transit without going around in green way, wisconsin. Also according to the national Highway Traffic Safety Administration getting on and off the bus, crossing the street, waiting for the bus can put children at significant danger. In your Expert Opinion would reducing congestion in general but specifically reducing sort of large vehicles like logging trucks from local trucks improve the safety of school buses . So school buses are large vehicles and typically in most crashes with Passenger Vehicles they fare very well. Unfortunately in crashes with other large vehicles thats where we see the vulnerabilities, especially high speed rollovers. We also have been careful of unintended consequences because the ntsb has investigated a number of commercial Motor Vehicle crashes, especially in work zones where there may be some sort of a vehicle that isnt stopped for a queue that is developed for a work zone. I guess i would encourage you to consider unintended consequences and also Technological Solutions such as we were discussing earlier of forward Collision Avoidance and automatic emergency braking for all commercial vehicles. Yes, maam. Congressman, i would just add certainly ntsb is the expert on the statistics, but our tragic crash happened on a highway. So, you know, with a large vehicle striking a school bus on a highway, a major highway. So clearing the local roads wouldnt have been helpful in that situation. I think, again, unintended consequences, there are there are a lot of different ways to look at it. I certainly respect unintended consequences, probably the main reason im sitting on this side of the aisle. I appreciate all of your answers and thank you for the dedicated work that you do. Im sure it wasnt unintended that you are on that side of the aisle. Thank you very much, mr. Gallagher. Mr. Malinowski. Thank you, madam chair. Mr. Gallagher, is always welcome to switch sides of the aisle. We can talk afterwards. And i would have to not respect unintended consequences. Never mind. Ms. Fulton, first of all, welcome. As a fellow new jerseyan im happy to see you here and very pleased to see the strides that new jersey has been making in improving School Bus Safety going forward, especially after the tragic accident in mt. Olive which happened in my district, as you know. I was able to meet mirandas father and sister just a couple weeks ago when they came to washington to advocate for greater federal involvement in preventing tragedies like that bus crash from ever happening again. In that context i wanted to ask you to say a little bit more about new jerseys employer notification system. I think you began to a little bit earlier. As i understand it was recently updated to better prevent bad drivers from getting behind the wheel of a bus, and i wonder if you could explain how the system works and some of the changes that we have made. Yes. Thank you, congressman malinowski. So we at Motor Vehicle when a notice of suspension is posted by the courts or Law Enforcement to a drivers license and that drivers license has a School Bus Endorsement, a report is automatically generated. And we do this on a daily basis. Every business day and for us saturday is a business day so six days a week we generate a report. Anyone who holds that School Bus Endorsement whose license has been suspended and that goes directly to the department of ed. Then the department of ed was notifying operators. The change in the law first shortens the time that the employer has and the department of education so department of education has 24 hours to notify the operator, whether its the board of ed or the private operator, that this driver has been suspended and they must confirm within another 24 hours that that driver is off the road. That that driver is not driving a school bus. And the second piece of the legislation is that we dont just do that for suspensions or 12 points or over, which generates a suspension. We are now required to do that if you get six points or more or three moving violations in a leeyear period. So there are more stringent requirements and the notification has shortened. This is still relatively new, but thats thats how it works. And so lets move from that to the across state lines issue. If somebody had an infraction, lets say someone had the equivalent of six points in another state, moved to new jersey. What would happen . And how soon would it happen . Well, first, congressman, if theres a notice of suspension that comes from another state, we may get that any number of ways, depending on whether we have an agreement with that state where we get something electronically or whether we get it in the mail the way that we communicate with some of our sister states. So it may come in the mail and that can take time. It has to be managed manually. The six points, now, thats a new new jersey rule and we have not yet gotten the that to happen automatically. Right . So theres not an automatic trigger of six points that come in from another state. Now, i guess once it gets posted to the new jersey driver license then we are in state and we can manage it, but the real trick is getting notice from the other state. How long does it take for a conviction that happens in pennsylvania or new york, how long does it take for that conviction to get posted in new jersey . Thats manual process many times. So that just leads to the obvious final question which is whether a national ens employer notification system would be helpful to you. A National Notification system would be helpful for us for sure. You know, i know ive referenced anba before but we actually use their existing system for other cdl system so that would be helpful. Great. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Malinowski. It may be that theres something that this committee can do to make sure that that National System occurs, so i appreciate those questions. Mr. Palmer. Thank you, madam chairman. Ms. Poland, the nhtsa found 97 pedestrians under the age of 18 were killed in School Transportation related crashes between 2008 and 2017. Do you know how many were struck by vehicles going around the bus out of that 97 . The National Transportation safety board, does anyone have an idea . Certainly theres Data Available on those crash statistics. The ntsb accidents are a portion of those numbers that youre looking at. As i mentioned in my Opening Statement, we have three ongoing investigations in three different states where we are looking at whats happening on those high speed roadways. I have several questions that i want to ask about this, but i think its important to know how many of these fatalities were the result of people going around the bus, as opposed to the bus actually running over the child. Youve got both those situations. And the reason i bring that up is that in reading the testimonies here, mr. Benishs testimony pointed out that the passing of stopped school buses during loading or unloading illegal in all 50 states has reached epidemic proportions. In most recent annual Observational Survey in 2018, 105,306 School Bus Drivers in 38 states reported almost 84,000 vehicles that illegally passed your stopped school bus in one day. That is incomprehensible to me that that many people are that stupid or that unconcerned about the safety of the kids on that bus. Based on the observations if you projected that out over 180 Day School Year thats 50 million vehicles illegally passing a school bus. So i think its important to know, madam chairman, how many of these fatalities or injuries are because people are passing school buses. I think we may need to take a look particularly at the state level for those of you involved with the state legislature as ms. Fulton or mr. Mclean, that the penalties ought to be much more severe for going around a school bus when its stopped. I think it would be important to know, you know, whats going on with that. And the other thing that i want to ask is a number of these accidents are in rural areas. Any idea, ms. Poland, about why so many of them in rural areas . I mean, we had a lot of discussion about congested streets, thats really not an issue out where i grew up, and i rode a school bus when i was a kid, bus 64, by the way. Well, i guess its unfortunate to report that the National Association of state directors of Pupil Transportation yesterday put out the new statistics for the last school year and now theyre reporting that theres over 95,000 illegal passings in that single day from 39 states that are reporting that information. As i mentioned earlier, the ntsb is looking at three crashes, all of those are in what you would classify as rural areas, they are on high speed roadways, 55 mile per hour roadways, and so our investigators are currently looking at a variety of different countermeasures including route planning and technological countermeasures to be able to make recommendations to our board to assist in this process. I want to get to some questions that will lead to some solutions, okay . So what im suggesting here is that we look at these crash statistics, rural versus suburban, urban, look at the number of vehicles that are going around school buses. Id like to know whether or not these are rural incidents or in other areas. In regard to those higherspeed highways, where i currently live we have a highway where its 55, but during the certain times of day when kids are coming to school and when kids are leaving the school that speed limit is reduced to about 25 Miles Per Hour. It may be particularly in rural areas you treat this like you would a construction zone. Somebody brought this up, madam chairman, i think its a pretty good idea that maybe during those times we do it like a construction zone. We notify you ahead of time you have to bring your speed down because youve got school buses operating in the area. I know thats going to create some issues for transport vehicles and things like that, but i will pay the extra cost for a loaf of bread or a bottle of water, whatever, if it saves the life of a kid. One last thing, if i may, madam chairman im kind of on a roll. If i could look at this, too, and this is something that i wanted to ask mr. Mclean about. The legislative role in this and for ms. Fulton, too. My concern is about the abuse of alcohol and some states have requirements for, you know, how many hours after a bus driver consumes alcohol. That should also include recreational marijuana. The thing that concerns me is that there are commercial drivers who lose their license and in a lot of cases they selfreport. I think we need to have a database where if someone applies for a license to drive a school bus, there is a database that is surgical and you can determine whether or not someone has lost their license before we put them behind the wheel of a bus carrying our kids. What do you think about that . I dont know that i want to make it a federal law. Hes over time so i wish that you would take those suggestions under advisement. I thank the chairman for her indulgence. I yield back. And i thank mr. Palmer for his comments, especially this notion about ways to make the penalties more severe for passing by a school bus. Thats something that we need to look into, raising a federal issue as to whether or not we could do that, recognizing that most of these laws are local and mr. Palmer raised a number of issues. I think this was raised before, about studies that we need to do, statistics we simply do not have. It seems to me we cannot pass another bill without making sure that those studies are not and statistics are not mandated. So i thank you, mr. Palmer. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, madam chair. First id like to address my question to ms. Fulton. Thank you for the good work youve done in new jersey, yall seem to have been way ahead of the game. Youve done super. Why has new jersey been able to make significant progress toward improving School Bus Safety, the threepoint safety belts, when its been so difficult in other states . Well, congressman, i will be honest with you, it makes a difference when the governor and the members of our new jersey congressional delegation make it a priority, continue to work actively educating the community, speaking out about it and speaking to our state legislators. We have had incredible support across the board from members of congress and the governor to say who is your governor . Governor phil murphy. And this has been something that was important to him and important to our members of congress and they made it happen. Listen, no one wants to wait for a tragedy, but when it happens, you know, thats an opportunity where people in a position to make a difference can choose to really were you part of the campaign to make it happen, the lobbying effort . I was not. I dont lobby for legislation in my position as Motor Vehicle commissioner. We provided as an observer do you recall who were the main people against the bills . Against the bill . Yeah. Was it there wasnt significant opposition. You know, there were questions about the additional cost, but the additional cost of a couple thousand on a 54passenger bus. There was cost for School Districts but there was a lot of support from the School Districts where they have had accidents to go forward with it. Thank you, maam. Ms. Poland, let me ask you as part of a special report examining School Bus Safety the ntsb recommended that all new large school buses be equipped with lap and shoulder belts. You probably remember that from my Opening Statement. Im sure everybody does. In addition the American Academy of pediatrics long standing position that new school buses should be equipped with seat belts. Why is it so important that this common sense Safety Equipment that has already saved thousands of lives in passenger Motor Vehicles be placed in all large school buses . As i mentioned in my Opening Statement, we know that school buses are extremely safe, but they are vulnerable in certain types of crashes and over and over again were seeing children that are injured and killed in these types of very severe crashes. The technologies have changed over time. We initially recommended occupant protection systems, but now were seeing that lap shoulder belts are well designed and, in fact, in certain circumstances were able to study how theyre performing in crashes and finding that occupants are very well protected in these new designs of lap shoulder belts. Thats why we came out with our recommendations to the states to have new large school buses be equipped with passenger slap shoulder belts. I vaguely recall from when i sponsored this as a state senator which is 20 odd years ago maybe that there was some discussion that the safety belts that the seats are perpendicular, right angles and that they dont theyre stiff and they dont move and that it would hurt the kids necks if they were strapped in. Is that an argument thats been made . That is an argument thats been made, but fortunately the technologies have advanced to they are able to protect an occupant that may be unbelted behind occupants that are belted as well. And, again, weve been able to study some of these crashes when mr. Have been on board video camera systems that have shown the outcome and seeing that there is good protection with these modern lap shoulder belts in school buses. Thank you. The ntsb also recommended automatic emergency braking technology. Its widely available. You also concur that that should be part of a school bus. Correct. So the ntsb is always advocating for crash prevention, so Technology Like forward Collision Avoidance, automatic emergency braking, electronic stability control if they can activate at that last moment before a crash happens in some cases we can avoid the crash all together, in other cases we can just lower the severity of that crash. Its very important for school buses as well as all vehicles. Thank you. And those are the reasons which have been discussed here why dart duckworth and i introduced hr 3959 the School Bus Safety act and hope that we can have it included in some measure as time goes on and pass it into law. Thank you, madam chair, and i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you, mr. Cohen. I allowed mr. Palmer to ask a question when he was slightly out of time, but it was impossible given the time remaining for the question to be answered. So i invite those of you who do have answers to mr. Palmers question to submit it in writing and i will make sure that that that those answers get into the record. Mr. Balderson. Thank you, madam chair. And i will assist that because mr. Palmer, representative palmer, took some of thigh question talking about Rural Communities rand the impact of bus travel for those students. I did have a stat here that 52 of the School Bus Crashes do occur in Rural Communities and that is done by the national Highway Traffic Safety Administration. That was done. Could all of you elaborate on to some of the things of any recommendations that we can do to improve bus safety in Rural Communities and some of the areas that i represent in rural in ohio 12th district is literally i mean, theres one county thats not in the district anymore but right close that has no fourlane roads so its all state route or gravel roads. A student is on that bus one way two to two and a half hours for travel. So i will ask the whole panel if theres anything, any thoughts that you would have, safety concerns that have been addressed for the Rural Communities since 52 of the school bus incidents happen in Rural Communities . Mr. Mclean, lead the way. Im not sure im in a position to say what would help Rural Communities specifically. I dont know that i have suggestions for Rural Communities, but i do think that allowing states to explore the solutions and having the federal government permit the states to explore those solutions is really important to figure out what the best solutions are. Were probably never going to eliminate all accidents, but we need to figure out the best ways to reduce the number of accidents. Senator, i dont have a specific recommendation for rural. Does anybody have a suggestion . Ms. Fulton . Well, congressman, i dont know that this is specific to Rural Communities, but in our state rural and urban communities both may have less resources at their school board than suburban suburban communiti communities. Sorry. But one of the things thats critically important for us is the inspection from the state level of the school bus to ensure that they are not allowing a lack of resources to lead to the school buses not staying maintained and not not meeting standards. Just as important when we do those inspections, both the announced and the unannounced, we check the driver records. Are you sure that, you know, the drivers that youre putting behind the wheel, does every one of them have a current medical certification . Does every one of them have a current cdl with a legitimate endorsement and no suspensions . You would be surprised how often private operators that are often used when funds run low, bright operators have been we had 330 summonses in the space of one year in our inspections where private operators for the most part it was private operators have failed to keep those things current. That leads to people being behind the wheel that arent qualified. Madam chairman, i will switch gears with the panel a little bit. According to the national highway Safety Administration the greatest risk to School Children is getting on and off the school bus. Have any states successfully implemented reforms to better prevent these violations. I was just going to comment on the last question on the rural. You may you may comment. On that question. Traditionally on the coast the east and west coast, you dont see it as much, but in the rural areas you see more they call it park out where the driver takes the bus home with them. They dont report to a terminal or a yard. The driver just gets in the bus and then goes on their route. So in the rural areas i think you probably would need to make sure that those vehicles are inspected an up to date a little more oversight and also that the driver is current in their training on whats current in that area. Okay. I would like to comment being one of the bus drivers and i do drive a bus and have a cdl and have givdriven for over 25 year. More signage in those areas or especially rural, making sure we put specific speed limits down at certain times of the day to slow down, just as a construction site to slow down. As i mentioned in my Opening Statement we do have the act of 2019 by senator walarski. We want more public messaging especially for new drivers and especially more talk about distracted driving which was involved with an accident in rochester where exactly what happened, three students were killed this past year in rural indiana, all from the same family early in the morning. Thank you. Madam chair, thank you. Thank you very much, mr. Balderson. Mr. Payne. Thank you, madam chair. Ms. Fulton, its good to have you here. I dont know if you are aware of this, probably not, but before my time in congress, i was president of the city council in newark, new jersey, i was in Student Transportation for ten years. I started out actually for one of the educational commissions, Dutchess County Educational Services commission and started out as a School Bus Monitor where i was out on routes in the morning, doing spot inspections and making sure children parents that had problems with children being picked up, all those type of issues and worked my way up to supervisor of transportation where i was responsible for 10,000 children on school buses in the day handling north Public Schools transportation and special needs throughout essex county. Our both vulnerable students, stretcher bound children that were paraplegic. So this is really where i cut my teeth in Public Service so im really glad to see that were here discussing these issues. And also im proud that new jersey is on the cutting edge of safety. So, you know, i fully understand the need for safe school buses and commend you for your work to increase their safety. My children have triplets and in new jersey they have early School Intervention where children go to school as early as three and so my children were on school buses in newark at three years old. As a matter of fact, theres one of them taking pictures of me right now. Hes made it pretty far. So new jersey is a leader when it comes to School Bus Safety, requiring all school buses to have the threepoint safety belts, yet the federal government does not require that all school buses have them. Can you explain how threepoint safety belts improve bus safety and do you think it would be in the countrys best interest to have these belts required nationwide . Thank you, congressman payne. And if i might use a moment to say i didnt have a chance to agree with my friend mr. Condron from the teamsters, but School Bus Drivers are incredibly valued and incredibly underpaid for the responsibility we give them. I agree. Let me say that. I concur. In terms of the statistics on threepoint belts we get all our stats from the National Transportation safety board im going to pass off to ms. Fulton for that. So the ntsb has looked at a wide variety of crashes, ive investigated crashes in school buses for over 20 years now looking at how school bus passengers, what happens during crashes when theyre just compartmentalization inside the school bus, when its lap only belts and when there are lap shoulder belts. Weve found the recent advancements in the design of the lap shoulder belts has provided excellent protection for the ak months inside the school buses in a variety of different crashes. The baseline minimal for school buses compartmentalization is incomplete and many of these catastrophic crashes involve side impacts and rollovers which lap shoulder belts provide that protection four or occupants. I also was able to meet with mirandas father and her family several weeks ago and i am wondering, you know, these laws that we have in new jersey, you know, are they really a Good Foundation for the possibility of federal laws across the country and anybody that wants to weigh in, please feel free. Well, congressman, we already have the laws. Perhaps my friend from maine can weigh in on whether the states we are still we still are learning in terms of how to execute some of these things and whats going to have the greatest impact, but we will see yes or no from anybody that wants to my time is running out. Its the position of ncsl that the federal government should leave it to the states to explore Different Solutions because Different Solutions work there are Different Solutions for each state. And speaking with a variety of people that have implemented the lap shoulder belts in various jurisdictions were pleased to see that best practices are being shared amongst this community because i think were all in agreement here that ultimately we want the safe transportation of our students to and from school. Thank you. My time has expired. I kneeled back. Thank you, mr. Payne. Mr. Stauber. I thank you, madam chair. I appreciate the witnesses giving us the opportunity to listen to your expertise. I come from a little bit different background. I was actually a School Bus Monitor many years ago, but i also had the privilege of serving my community in duluth, minnesota, as a police officer. One of the worst things we can do is respond to a crash of a student getting on or off the bus, and its just its unconscionable that we see drivers do this every single day in this country. Its uncalled for. I have been in a fully marked squad car, the second car behind a stopped school bus, the lights on, the gates out, right in front of me. Its unconscionable. And so for me to see it, ive cited it, ive testified in it court. For me we are in this together. When we put our kids at the end of the sidewalk or the corner, we expect them to arrive safe to and from school. And from my perspective i look at we talked about the greatest concern is the crossing of the roads. Are we putting enough emphasis in our drivers education classes in each of our states, because they are all a bit different . Mr. Mclean, what does your state require for drivers education total hours and what do they put for this subject or dont they specify this subject . Im not a Motor Vehicle administrator so i cant speak to the exact requirements, but we do have a pretty rigorous system and process for getting a license. Im talking about im talking about youre talking about 16yearold drivers going to the drivers education. Is there anybody that thinks that we could enhance our drivers education because if the majority of it is happening, drivers not paying attention or what have you, it seems to me the educational component and the seriousness of teaching our Young Drivers mr. Benish. Thats something with the stop act we have proposed in my Opening Statement about putting more education. I recently had this discussion with my three teens about two months ago about stopping in and around a school bus and knowing that i own one of a School Bus Company and am a driver it was very interesting to hear their perspective from mackenzie, george and jack what they did know and did not know about stopping around a school bus. Theyre brandnew drivers and it was just plain scary. I think that we have to actually, you know, allow our states to adopt real strict educational parts of stopping in and around school buses. By the way, im a cosponsor of the stop for School Buses Act. Thank you. For me for me one driver, driving around a school bus, is too much in this country. One. Because the safety of our kids is paramount. One of the things i wanted to talk about, ms. Poland, you talk about the restraints and what have you. Do you feel comfortable saying that the restraints in a fire or water emergency for young kids, do you feel especially in rural areas where youre not going to get the help right away, do you feel comfortable in putting that mandate forth to the entire country . Thats a good question and many people, of course, are asking that question. I can just lend some of the experience that we have had where weve looked at crashes, very severe crashes where there has been on board camera systems and we have studied the evacuation and receive that the passengers that have maintained consciousness during the crash are able to selfevacuate. Its important for those students to be protected during the crash to give them the best chance to be able to selfevacua selfevacuate. If they are unable to be protected during that crash, then, of course, the injuries may negatively affect their ability to quickly and safely evacuate the school bus. Thank you very much. To the witnesses, i really appreciate we all want the school bus and the kids and their safety, thats the thats the utmost importance and you all are experts in your respective fields so i appreciate this opportunity to listen to you and together we can increase in my mind we can increase the safety exponentially using i think, some common sense measures. With that i will yield back, madam chair. Thank you very much, mr. Stauber. Mr. Babin. Thank you, witnesses for your expertise. I appreciate you being here. Ms. Poland, thank you for being with us here today. Each and every member of this committee cares deeply about the safety and security of our schoolaged children as weve heard numerous of our members say and we want to ensure when they do get on the school bus to get to and from school that they arrive safety at their destination. I also want to make sure that our states and local communities are allowed the flexibility they need to implement proper reb operations for their unique jurisdictions. With that in mind how can congress balance the need for improved School Bus Safety without imposing a heavyhanded overrel lated one size fits all approach four our states and School Districts . Thank you for the we. The ntsb has made recommendations about Vehicle Design and we think its important for the federal government to provide that minimum level of Vehicle Design, including the crash protection and occupant protection. Weve investigated many crashes where oversight of the drivers is a concern. We recognize theres minimum standards at the federal level, but much of that oversight happens at the state and local level. So many of our recommendations have focused on that state and local level. So, again, we think that those minimum standards should be provided at the federal level, but we do think its important and critical that the state and local levels can implement them and many times exceed them as youve heard today. Exactly. I have a niece that was involved in an accident in beaumont, texas, a charter bus, not a school bus and it was a terrible accident with some fatalities and my niece was injured and i think theyve implemented in the state of texas seat belts because of that one accident. Then to follow up on that question, could you talk about some of the recent actions that youve seen states and School Districts take in order to increase the safety of students traveling to and from school on school buses . I know weve talked about that already. Youve already hit on it a little bit, but if you would elaborate a little further i would appreciate it. Yes, of course. Were very pleased to see so Much Movement on occupant protection. Theres so many states that are now looking at passenger lap shoulder belts for large school buses and we think this is a critical move. We are also seeing a lot of motion in the School Bus Manufacturers where they are looking at some of the technologies for preventing crashes and implementing these in some bus us as standard equipment. We also think that thats also very critical for the crash avoidance aspect. So there is a lot of movement. Were seeing a lot of sharing of best practices, including some of the aspects that dont necessarily address injuries and fatalities, but soninlaw of the aspects of Driver Retention and distraction that may be improved with some of the technologies and some of the installations that we are talking about, like lap shoulder belts. Absolutely. I will yield back the balance of my time. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, mr. Babin. Mr. Lamalfa. Thank you, madam chair. Ive actually got a little bit of good news on this subject here. We have in Northern California the town of paradise which had a horrendous fire, almost coming up on a year ago now, and we had one story of a local School Bus Driver kevin mckay who during this fire crisis without being told by anyone decided to drive his school bus back into town to the pond Rosa Elementary School in paradise when the camp fire hit town. His wife and family were already on their way to safety in coordination with the pond rosa School Principal mr. Mckay loaded 22 kids and several teachers on to his bus and took them to safety. At one point mr. Mckay literally for off his own shirt and give it to the teachers who made breathing masks. Thanks to the efforts of mr. Mckay and pond rosa teachers all the kids escaped the camp fire without major injury. So a really good piece. Now, being california as dangerous as the wildfires are there and still will be, school buses are under fire this another way, the California Resources board over their projections of heavy Vehicle Users decided to implement the installation of diesel particulate filters refitting these existing buses with these devices. They can reach and exceed 600 degrees celsius when the engine is operating and have been prone to clogging with ash and unburned fuel which causes them to catch fire. These are not isolated cases to buses. We have plenty of anecdotes with trucks and other vehicles that have been forced to be refitted with please devices. Just like freight trucks, again, school buses are vulnerable to these issues and have caught on fire. Being california it is the largest population it also has the Largest School bus fleet and also the largest number of students of any state. So california usually has the most restricted regulations on school buses as well it does. So chp has to inspect each bus every year. Despite these regs these buses catch on fire because the diesel particulate filter that was required was not suitable to be used. That technology hadnt caught up to what was a requirement on these buses. Hundreds of thousands of vehicles were required to install them anyway, no matter the cost. So i will throw this to ms. Poland. The federal government does set a pretty low bar for school buses and typically allows states to increase those standards as they see fit. Are you aware of any intervention the federal government has made when states are endangering students in implementing standards that are causing school buses to catch fire . Our experiences with the School Bus Fires are not related to the issue that youre bringing up, but some of the countermeasures that weve recommended may you have not heard of any case of trucks or buses that have been refitted with these filter systems of watching fire . So our oakland iowa crash that we just made public recently had a School Bus Fire but in that case the engine compartment caught on fire from overheating of the turbo charger. Of course, in that case i also mentioned that there was an incomplete fire wall that allowed the smoke and fumes thats one case, a turbo a turbo that was coming apart or lost a bearing or whatever, that could be something that would happen. But we are talking about the diesel particulate filters that have been forced to be refitted to many buses, trucks and lots of equipment in california and maybe other states that have joined in that. So is there any kind of protection from the federal government over a regulation that is causing fires simply by the fitting of this equipment . The ntsbs position is on Fire Suppression systems in the engine compartment and also on flammability of the interior components. It wouldnt address specifically the cause of why you are fire but may mitigate the consequences and increase the time for passengers to be evacuate wide variety those systems were fitted with countermeasures. The federal e. A is taking a look at how states sometimes go beyond to the harm of consumers to the farm of the safety of buses on that. Would ntsb be looking more at the possible harm in this case that fitting these devices on untested, the technology not having been made fully applicable in a safety factor, would they look at, say, maybe that they should not be fitted until they are more properly engineered . If there was a circumstance where that was the cause of a fire that the ntsb is investigating i am confident that we would look into that and certainly address countermeasures that may be able to mitigate the consequences. You might look at Counter Measures. So you have no statistics on how many fires have been caused by the reif i get of these vehicles with these filters . No, sir, we dont. Have you actually heard of it . Have you heard of this happening anecdotally yourself . As i mentioned earlier, that has not been the cause of any of our School Bus Fires, nor our motor coach fires. In general. In general. Trucks, buses, diesel vehicles that have had these filters refitted to thoem. Not that specific issue. You have never heard of that. The gentlemans time is expired. Never heard of that. Mr. Katko. Thank you, madam chairman. Thank you all for being here today. I will say at the outset im a proud sponsor of the stop for School Buses Act of 2019 and i am pleased that this legislation cl us a review of technologies for School Bus Safety. Mr. Condron, i want to congratulate you on lasts vote. Important for teamsters. Lets hope that moves in the senate. Thats a very big vote. Something you said, i believe ms. Poland said it, the most recent studies 95,000 people Pass School Buses with lights on illegally a day now. Thats the most recent study. That is really stunning to me and one of the things that the stop for school bus act of 2019 includes is a review of technologies to enhance School Bus Safety. Im exposed to some of these in different settings of Law Enforcement, i was a federal organized crime prosecutor for 20 years so im aware of all the emergent technologies. Lets talk lets talk about a few of them. I think there is some technologies out there that would pay for themselves and if you let me indulge for a second indulge me for a second. For example, if theres something mounted outside the bus which shows you can take a picture of a car and license plate as its passing and theyre subject currently fined and you have 95,000 cars doing this a day, those very quickly pay for themselves. I dont know if thats something that youre contemplating, but something that is going to absolutely get to the distracted driver because i think thats a big part of it and something that absolutely gets to the lack of respect for part of it. And something that gets to the lack of respect for the warning signs. And i think we need to take the gloves off with these knuckleheads that are doing this. One of the recent statistics showed ten year study, whatever it was, that 90 some odd children were killed as pedestrians, not on the bus. And different accidents, getting off a bus or getting on as you have noted is the most dangerous time. I would like to hear what you think about that possible proposal. I know it is used in other applications, for example, technology out there that as the car goes by, take a quick picture, you can tell whether the registration is expired and theyre sent a ticket. Why cant we do something similar with buses. If we had that, i think it would pay for itself. I would like to hear from you and some of the others. So the ntsb has looked at some aspects revolume fg around the School Bus Loading zone, including route selection to minimize the exposure in these circumstances and also we have three investigations ongoing, were exploring a variety of these technologies that can aid in the loading zone, preventing or mitigating injuries and fatalities. Investigators are looking at a variety of different aspects. I will open it up to some state partners at the table. Were also exploring that there may be some barriers at the state level for some technological interventions youre talking about. There may be. Some of these Technological Innovations have gone into practice. I think it cant go unnoticed that the distracted driver component is quite serious and seems to be getting much worse. Statistics updated today, 60,000 a day, now 95,000. Thats a gigantic increase. Thats indicative of escalation of distracted driver or person that disregards it. I think it is time to take the gloves off. I would like to hear from mr. Benish. We can get you a state by state School Bus Passing Law breakdown. Some states have enacted taking a picture and some states made it more severe. Unfortunately, taking the gloves off as needed, it is just not preventing them to do that. So again, with the stop act, and we appreciate the support, we need more signage, more education for new Young Drivers, and distracted driving is a huge problem, especially trucking and school busing. Thats when you see more accidents on the road. Thats definitely got something to do with it. But we have to make it a lot more severe and do a better job making our presence known about stopping for school buses. I understand there are other components. Im focusing on the stop school bus. Thats an epidemic when you have that many cars a day disregarding, not seeing it. Anybody else want to add anything to that . Mr. Mclean . Thank you very much, briefly. We just enacted a bill to allow cities and towns to put stop arm cameras on school buses. We believe this is a critical issue. It goes to enforcement. State Police Believe increased fines dont solve the problem, but enforcement does. Stop arm cameras will allow the prosecution of violators. Every person that passes, you get a picture of the license plate, theyre going to get smacked. It might help. Thank you very much. I kneeled back. Thank you, mr. Katko. Miss miller. Thank you, chairman, thank you all for being here today. Im happy we can come here today to talk about solutions to address the School Bus Safety. Im a mother and a grandmother, i would like to say safety of children is of the utmost importance and should be our First Priority with our kids. Dr. Poland, do you know what percentage of School Bus Crashes are classified as large buses . I dont have the specific statistic, but the majority of school buses on the roads are classified as large school buses. In charleston, west virginia, one of the School Districts held a demonstration on a new safety lighting system that illuminates the path students take to the bus in the dark. It has been extremely helpful to students and other drivers on the road. Have you noticed a trend in the amount of off the bus accidents at night . It has been a longstanding trend that more students are injured and killed in the loading zone than on the bus itself. Of course, you know that school bus operation changes throughout the year. Sometimes it is in low light conditions. And with these crashes that were looking at in three states i mentioned earlier, 55 Miles Per Hour roads, low light conditions, theres a variety of Counter Measures that investigators are looking at, and were looking forward to bringing the recommendations to the board in the near future. Is there anything you think congress can do to work on this issue . I think theres a variety of aspects, and certainly having this hearing is one of them because our state partners have a variety of Counter Measures that theyre already implementing, so were looking to those successful cases when were investigating these types of crashes to see what the best practices are and what are proven technologies to reduce injuries and fatalities in the School Bus Loading zone. Have a more consistent view. In 2010 i was in our state legislature and a mother, grandmother came to me and my office mate. Her sixyearold granddaughter had been killed, run over, getting off a school bus. And of course she was heartbroken. It took us quite awhile to get legislation through to double the fines. It has been an ongoing thing to try and change the laws as they go. But the heartache and i mean, we developed quite a strong relationship with this grandmother through it all, and the little girl would be turning 16 now. It just breaks your heart. I know one of the biggest problems that we have in School Bus Safety is the people who are ignoring the school bus unloading stop lights. Indiana has taken measures to replace school buses operated on a u. S. Route or state route. From my understanding, the driver may not load or unload a student at a location that requires the student to cross a roadway unless no other safe alternatives are available. Have you all seen other states take steps to improve on loading safety . Any of you all . Mr. Mclean . Repeat the question. On state routes, the state of indiana has issued a law that you cannot load or unload a student at a location on a 55 Miles Per Hour highway that they have to cross unless theres no other alternative. We havent, i dont know any specific issues around routing. Really we have been dealing with issues on and around the loading and unloading zone. Never across a highway where they have to crossover. Not that i know of, no. I know in driving myself when i see a school bus on this side of the road and it is a two lanes here and two lanes here and stuff in the middle, and theyre stopped, a lot of people keep going here and it is extremely difficult to get that child across the road. Have there been any other best practices implemented to keep kids safe in loading and unloading zones particularly in unsafe traffic areas and dangerous neighborhoods . Mr. Benish . Dangerous neighborhoods, yes. They started to especially in the city of chicago, they have certain areas they have chaperones or people in the neighborhood to help with that. Getting back to the original question and suggestions, what i heard from state of california, a driver has to physically walk off the bus with the student, with a sign, walk them to the side of the street in that instance, and i guess over the past 30, 40 years has been very successful. Theyve had a really good low frequency of accidents with that. And they dont have a helper on the bus to get off and do it . It is actually the driver according to what i heard. Wow. Thank you, i yield back my time. Thank you very much, miss miller. Mr. Westerman. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you to witnesses for your testimony today. I live in a large rural district back in arkansas where bus transportation is a big issue. I had the opportunity to serve on a school board, was the first elected office i held. In the state legislature we dealt with, a lot of School Related policy, you know, as we look at the impacts of what we do with bus safety, bus transportation, i think it probably has disproportional impact on the role of schools because so much of their budgets go to transportation with the longer routes. And the additional buses that they have that sometimes arent fully utilized. So mr. Benish, you mentioned something about cost and i might have heard mr. Condron mention something about cost effectiveness and obviously when were talking about School Busses, safety outweighs cost, but cost has to be a consideration because schools just dont have funding to go out and purchase all of the latest and greatest equipment thats there. One thing the gentleman asked questions earlier about air quality, i know that theres some Clean Bus Technology out there, not electric busses but compressed natural gas busses, and an issue i saw with that from the local level and on the state level is a lot of schools would like to put in cng bus. And the cost of a new one is the cost of a new diesel bus, but you have to have the elaborate cng charging station thats a Large Capital investment for schools. So they often cant afford up front Capital Investment so they can take advantage of the low operating cost with cng buses. This is 10 or 12 years ago when i was working on these issues. Whats the safety as far as natural gas versus diesel. Are there differences in safety or crash tests or with air quality . Cng buses were introduced about ten years ago, really never caught popularity due to exactly what youre saying as far as cost. Theyre quite expensive, fueling stations are from 2 to 300,000. There has to be with compressed natural gas, we ransom of this in the 70s, you have to make modifications to the shop and yard due to explosiveness obviously of the gas. The new diesel engines today are pretty clean. Somebody told me the other day, air coming into a diesel are coming out of a diesel is cleaner than it is going in. There has been a lot of cleanup. Dont see a puff of black smoke any more on Yellow School buses. We run propane buses at home and two electric buses honored that we should get this fall. There is technology thats out there. But as far as air quality inside the bus and as far as diesel emissions, theres been funding out there thats gotten older buses off the road. It is effective and buses today are definitely way cleaner than ten years ago. When i was going back to the school board, we would purchase a few buses every year, kind of rotate new buses through the fleet. So after awhile, you get older buses that dont have the latest technology on it. As kind of advice to schools, is it better to wait and spend more money on the new bus with the latest safety gear or to invest that money in your old equipment putting the safety gear onto it . It is probably like a bus by bus feature but we talked about today stability control now is standard in all School Busses, emergency braking, those things, technology, is in the forefront, should be on most school buses in the very near future. I guess if you can afford it, and for the safety of the children and the newer bus would make a better practice to buy a newer bus nowadays. You talked about tremendous amount of passes of stopped school buses. How do we educate the public more to know when theres a bus stop with lights flashing, that means stop. I say that just from practical experience within the last couple of months. I was driving on a road in my district, it was a very wide, nice road, two lanes of traffic each direction with a turning lane in the middle. 65 Miles Per Hour speed limit. I started meeting the school bus on the far side of the road slowing down the stop. I stopped in a 65 Miles Per Hour zone, i think i got passed four times, and the kids were getting off on the other side of the road. It wasnt necessarily any danger for the children who were getting off on the other side of the road, but still, people ignored that stopped school bus. And plus, it was kind of a safety issue with me stopped in a 65 Miles Per Hour zone with cars coming up behind me really quickly. How do we educate the public and do a better job of that because basically it is on your when you take your drivers test. Someone can answer, but the time expired. Is there any answer . So the ntsb is focusing on route selection and then with continuing investigations, looking at other Counter Measures. Three investigations are similar to that circumstance, except students were crossing high speed on coming roadway, were looking at Counter Measures to address that issue specifically. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you very much, mr mr. Westerman. I welcome chairman cummings who asked permission to sit with us at this hearing and ask questions. Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, madam chair. On january 11, 2017, congressman cohen, former colleague and former colleague congressman jimmy duncan and i wrote to our previous chairman asking that the committee convene a hearing on School Bus Safety, but he did not answer our requests. I want to thank chair woman norton and defazio for your focus on this critical issue and having todays hearing. November 1st, 2016, six people were killed in baltimore in my hometown when a school bus crashed into a car and struck a pillar in a cemetery, finally collided head on with a Public Transit bus. The National Transportation safety board investigated this crash. And a crash in chattanooga, tennessee, and adopted a report may 22nd, 2018, addressing these two accidents. The report stated, and i quote, although the specific safety issues differed, the crashes shared one common factor, poor driver oversight by both the School Districts and contract which resulted in unsafe operation of school buses, end of quote. The report found that the driver of the Baltimore School bus had, quote, repeated license revocations and suspensions over several decades, end of quote. It had also uncovered instances in which the driver fraudulently obtained his license and numerous moving violations. In addition, the driver had medical conditions, including history of seizures, that should disqualify him from driving a school bus. March, 2017, the ntsb recommended that the Baltimore City Public Schools request a performance audit of the Transportation Department and then take conservative actions to improve internal controls. Ntsb also recommended that the Maryland State Department of education review state regulations to clarify disqualifying conditions and require notification to the state department of education regarding all drivers who are determined to be not qualified to drive a school bus. Ntsb also made several recommendations to the maryland Motor Vehicle administration. Dr. Poland, what is the status of the recommendations you made to the Baltimore City School System and state of maryland . So those early and urgent recommendations have certainly been updated. We received correspondence from Baltimore City Public Schools about the performance audit and based on the correspondence and their actions we have closed that recommendation with an acceptable action. Theres another recommendation as you mention to Baltimore City Public Schools that they take conservative actions, and that recommendation is still open, while they continue to do those conservative actions, and that is in an acceptable status. The recommendation to the Maryland State Department of education addressing the comar, code of maryland regulations is in status of open, acceptable response. Maryland communicated theyre working on that recommendation and they are in the process of implementing it, and we found that acceptable. According to a report in the Baltimore Sun from march 2nd, 2018, results of the audit of Baltimore School system showed and i quote accumulation of errors, including, quote, systemic absence of leadership over an extended period of time, end of quote, and failure, quote, to provide Due Diligence over the systems end of quote that were in place. Have steps been taken to address these findings and implement conservative measures that will assure no more individuals are able to drive School Busses for disqualifying conditions in maryland . Maryland is currently working on implementing that. Importantly from the investigation because we were able to share that on a nationwide level, other states are looking at the recommendations, examining their own systems to ensure in other states theyre having appropriate reporting and that action is taken at the local level to remove drivers that are unsafe for a variety of reasons as you mentioned. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you very much, mr. Cummings. Appreciate your attending. Are there further questions from members of the subcommittee . Thank you, madam chair. I would like to followup where i left off. Have you heard of anecdotes or instances of vehicles, diesel vehicles being refitted in Filtration Systems catching fire because of them, trucks, buses, farm equipment. As i mentioned earlier, our ongoing investigations and previous investigations do not deal with that specific cause. My background is biomechanical engineering. We have experts at the ntsb that are experts in fire safety, some post crash fires. We would be happy to take your question back to see if some subject Matter Experts are more familiar with your question. May not necessarily deal with crashes per se, but are you getting that feedback. All right. And i would like to followup on what mr. Cummings was talking about as well with we hear talk about technology coming to save the day here, but it comes down to theres a human factor of those driving the busses and people driving the cars. So i think the focus were going to have the most success is indeed how do we tighten that up. He was talking about qualifications for bus drivers. I wonder do we have anything close to 50 state standard on whos eligible, what their record is, what their physical capabilities are for vision for being able to help students in situations. I would like to follow that, mr. Benish commented on it, is there a 50 state standard or do all states, we talked about he said in california im used to it, if a child is going to cross the road, theres a whole lot of difference between letting kids off on the edge of the road and go this way, if theyre to be crossing the road, if youve got red lights, should be stopping cars, we heard that they arent, but if the driver is also getting out, the driver is the adult in this case, theyre the ones should be trained to make sure theres no cars coming when they make that commitment to go across the road to the other side. Do we have a 50 state standard on the driver getting out with the sign or something to prevent the kid from running across, the driver being the adult, before they cross that other lane to the other side of the road, and do we have a standard of my previous thought there on drivers in general. Currently i do not think there is a standard across 50 states to do that. It is just in california, what i understand. All right. Seems like thats the sensible thing, because again, the driver is the adult and all that. I would like to miss poland, if you have stats, too, on when you talk about collisions with children by cars, are the vast majority of them on crossing the roadway or is it happening on the safer side where theyre getting out and going away from the road . I would think that it is going to be the vast majority are the crossing the road. If were enforcing on that better, then i think we can have a lot more success. Maybe it is the driver getting out as a 50 state standard. And also, just for regular drivers, people have been driving awhile, havent taken the test in a while, whatever, i think we need great emphasis on the difference between a flashing yellow light on a bus and flashing red light. People are getting more and more there are so many holdups in traffic. If they dont take the bus seriously, you know, people dont stop for flashing yellow light, theres no kids present. Once traffic is stabilized, more where Driver Training should be in place, shouldnt flick the light on until traffic is calm or theres a break. Not an inconvenience, making drivers mad. Driver rage is a big part of things. But there needs to be that finesse there of the yellow light to get things calmed down and red light when youre going to have students. I gave you a few things to think about there. That seems to me where the success is going to be and we heard a lot about technology saving the day. We have to have top notch drivers and our people on the road, car drivers, need to be a little more cognizant of the difference between yellow light is okay, slow down, red light, youve got to stop. And drivers differentiating. Please comment and ill stop. As you mention, this is a multi facetted approach for school bus Transportation Safety from the Human Performance of the School Bus Driver and drivers on the road around it to those last minute technological interventions that can prevent a crash to protecting occupants of a crash does happen. I certainly appreciate your comments and thats something well consider as we move forward on loading zone crashes. Again, the stats i mention, if we could get stats for the committee or for my office on are these crossing the road statistics by and large, more 50 50, and is it while the bus is there orchi kids being hit ar the bus left. Something more instructive on what to look at. Thank you, madam chair. Appreciate the questions. Perhaps you can get the statistics to the committee itself so we can put that the gentleman asked for, to put them in the record, they would be very important. Yes, maam. And are there further questions from members of the subcommittee . Seeing none, i want to thank each of the Witnesses Today for really very helpful testimony each and every one of you gave, not only helpful information to us but i must tell you, i think homework for us. When i came into this hearing before i heard your testimony, i did not have what i would call an agenda. Youve given me one now because of the detail of your helpful testimony. I ask unanimous consent the record of todays hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing or that members have already asked and i asked to be submitted. Unanimous consent the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of todays hearing. Without objection, so ordered. If no other members have anything to add, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you for attending. Heres our prime time schedule on cspan networks. 8 00 p. M. 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Explore our nations past on American History tv every weekend on cspan3. What is your vision in 2020 . Student cam 2020 is asking students what issue do you most want to see the president ial candidates address during the campaign. Student cam is a video documentary competition for middle and high school students, with 100,000 in cash prizes at stake, including a 5,000 grand prize. Students are asked to produce a short video documentary, include cspan video, and reflect differing points of view. Information to get you started is on our website, student cam. Org. Next, the American Bar Association hosting its annual meeting in san francisco. During this portion, a panel of general counsels from microsoft, oracle, lyft and 23 and me discuss Tech Industry innovation, diversity, privacy, and social responsibility. This is an hour and a half. Good morning. I am an attorney in san francisco, lucky to be one of 13 members of the aba annual program committee. Were pleased to have an amazing panel with us today. The committee itself is from