When i wrote about bonnie and clyde, was really writing about the depression and growing up poor in the dust bowl. When i wrote about the gunfight at the o. K. Corral which was not actually a gunfight and wasnt at the o. K. Corral, but the accidental shooting in an empty lot on fremont street just did not have the same sort of ring to would. The first people were going to write this history. Wanted to write about the settling of the last part of the american frontier. And about three and half years ago it occurred to me that a lot of that unique time in American History that we know as the late 60s is either getting completely forgotten or else people are sort of putting their own little twist on it. Oh, yeah. Some people say, a lot of sex and drugs. Wasnt that silly and cute . Other people remember the passion over the war, the students marching in the street. Other people remember the space age with the cold war still going on. Tom hayden said when i interviewed him for this book that he does not think there has ever been a couple of years of American History where we were bombarded almost every day with an event that just almost seemed impossible to comprehend. We had assassinations of beloved leaders or at least controversy leaders that would loom in history. We had a war that was dividing the country. There was more racial violence in america than there had ever been since reconstruction and worse in many different ways, yet it was also a time when there was great literature being written, great music being composed, the mets won the world series, which for those of a certain age will understand this was about as miraculous as things could get. And then there was the great day that a man first walked on the on that day when that happened, at spann ranch, the women of the manson family were doing what they always did every day. Charles manson had told the women that their role, as dictated by the bible, as dictated by the beatles and dictated by him, they must be subservient to men at all times. And so all of the women in the family every afternoon were mend things because that is what women were supposed to do. And so theyre sitting there selling, Leslie Van Houten and patricia kremlin go. The woman who was known as squeaky. Sandy good, susan atkins, linda to say behan, names you ever before in other contexts. And one of them says, do you know what . Heard there was a man on the man today. And the other women started laughing matter. And these folks who follow the man who preached, he was perhaps the Second Coming of jesus christ, there was an apocalyptic race war about to erupt where the blacks would annihilate the whites, the manson family during the war would hide in a Bottomless Pit in the Mojave Desert where, as they head, they could change in to any pretty little being they wanted to, including ferries or else. When the war would be over and the black race would stand alone they would not be able to govern themselves. The manson family would come out of the hole in the desert and rule the world. These women who believe that when one of them had the nerve to claim that a man was walking on the moon. They laughed and said, oh, come on. Somebody is making that up. And of the three years ive worked on this book, i dont think i heard an anecdote from anybody that quite captured the manson families buying and to what they were hearing from their leader, and as he ordered them blocking out the outside world where he told them it was not safe, that if they ventured into it without him, there would never last. It was not my intention to write the book about Charles Manson when i decided to write about the late 1960s. As i always do, i made a list of people or events that i thought would be interesting for me to know more about. And i thought at first i might write a book about the weathermen. I think you folks might remember them. In that era in any given week of 1969 or 1970, according to government records the average just over 40 domestic terrorist bombings in this country. Thats every week. We have seen in recent years terrible attacks on our country from outsiders. In 1969, 1970 the attacks were coming from ourselves. But when i started to look at that, i thought, their just arent specific individuals that want to build this around. Its such a complex of thing. In trying to capture all the different named players, we might lose the thread of the story. What else . Then i started to write about the students for democratic society. Again, all of you are too young to remember this. I remember being in college and the campus sts faction would want a meeting. Talk about overthrowing the government. We had to stand up, bring the war back to america. And i was in college being able to pay my way by working at kmart because my father, the retired air force sergeant, had a little bit of pension coming from the government. I didnt want the government overthrown then, even if i did not agree with everything. But tom hayden has written about that. Mark rudd also. Bill airs, whether we agree your not, they have told their story. I think they told it pretty completely. What is left . And so i tried to ask myself, who is one person from the 19691970, that time in American History, whose name would be recognizable not just a folks our age, but people who were young, maybe even people who were still in college. Of course there is one answer to that. And that left me to do two things with this book i was going to write. After reading the other books about Charles Manson and now believe you know there have been many. If you wanted to collect each one of them, my last count was by reputable publishers since 1975 there have been 171 books about Charles Manson. If you throw and in the self published books and to this day i am sure many of you realize he has active followers who are publishing their books on the internet. All of these things have been written, but i never found a book that was the one i wanted to write, the definitive manson book written by his manson book called helterskelter. So far sold almost eight and half million copies. My book is breaking in its first week in print. It will be the New York Times bestseller list number 13, which means i am only million 300,000 behind. If you folks are 8. 399 million behind. If you folks are in a good mood and have a lot of friends, maybe you can move me up. The writer of that book, who was so generous and kind and helpful to me in the riding of this book, i cannot stress is generosity enough. Encourage they told the story pretty much of the arrest of the manson family and the trial of followed. They did it brilliantly. I wanted to write a book that did two different things. First of all, i wanted to find out how Charles Manson became the person he was in 1968 and 1969 and 70. All we ever had to go on and what has been accepted by everybody is what manson himself wants to tell people. Illegitimate son of that a teenage prostitute mother who cared so little that she once tried to sell them for a pitcher of beer. As a child he was abused by the uncles she would have moved into their home one after another. When he was nine or ten she was so tired of having to even try to perfunctorily take care of him that she threw him into the juvenile Justice System where he suffered greatly. From there his life turned bad. He did not know who his father was. Do not think his mother knew his father was. He said he finally learned even as a child that the street was his father and prison was mother. That is what everybody pretty much accepted. I decided to check it out. The first part is, lets look at the mans whole life. How did he get there . The second question, where was he and what kind of things are happening in our culture that made possible for a Charles Manson to recruit a few dozen followers who would do these kinds of got off things. Again, history does not happen in a vacuum. I am kind of convinced that if Charles Manson had been paroled from prison in nebraska and ended up and, of instead of los angeles and tried these things he would have been and stuck a pitchfork up like a scarecrow. He was in the right places at the right time. How did that happen . So what i thought i would do because you folks tonight, you have heard over and over during the years, peoples different versions of what happened on the nights of august 9th and 10th 1969. That will tell you, there is some new material in my book because in the course of my interviewing quite a few people, including a woman who was involved in both nights and besides a couple of sound bites and the 25th anniversary of the murders has never given a full account of it. She explained it all in such depth and with such honesty and clarity that she ended up answering the final couple of questions that the lapd has said has had about the murders all these years. Most of all, if its okay with you, i would like to talk very briefly about four parts of this book, Charles Manson, his life, and the world he grew up in. Lets begin with his childhood. We talked just a minute ago about all the things manson claims. Guess what . They are all lies. And it is all documented. I put 21,000 miles on my car in the last couple of years, and i went every place he went. A lot of the lies can be proven with simple visits to county courthouse. Charles Manson Manson was not illegitimate. His mother when she was 15 was unhappy with their fundamentalist christian mother who believed that girls should not cut their hairs, where makeup and above all should not do that terribly simple thing that led to every evil in the world, dancing. We know her side of the story because his sister nancy never before interview nancy never before interview anywhere, and i found her. She told her mothers side of the story for the first time, gave me dates and places that i could go try to look. Here is what happened. This is what everybody in the family knew. The real manson family, including charles himself. When shes 15 Kathleen Maddox living in kentucky, crosses a bridge over the river to a town called ironton. Sneaks out of the house, goes because there are some clubs there where people can dance. And that one of these clubs, ritzy rays, is the name of it, she meets a man, an exciting call the man, 29 years old. His name is colonel scott. Colonel is his given name, not a military rank. But the colonel does not mind letting the 15yearold girl think he is a war hero. Of course, he actually works in the factory. He is married and has two children. That is the party part he leaves out. Not long later, kathleen becomes pregnant. She is 15. And she tells colonel scott, the colonel announces that he is going to do the right thing, but he has just been called away by the army. He is going to come back in just a couple of weeks and it will take care of everything. And knowing kathleen is pregnant, she goes to her mother, and tells her, and yet nancy loves her. She says she can get through this, and yet colonel scott never came back. Kathleens periods. There is another fellow in kathleens life who would like to get his attention. Manson, as william common laborer whose dream is to become a drycleaner. And knowing kathleen is pregnant with another mans child, he marries her about five months before the birth. There was never any question that Charles Manson was an illegitimate baby. His birth certificate was filed a few months after his birth. William was listed as the father. The whole family and charles himself knew throughout that the real father was colonel scott. No doubt. The later rumors that manson hated and feared blacks because he had a black father, never ever. Manson and kathleens marriage lasts a few years. He divorces her. Her son is left her son is never left with strangers or offered for a pitcher of beer. She did what many young women that age do and sticks him with her mother sister and her husband and daughter. Hes cared for always. Kathleen and her brother luther, spectacularly botch an attempted robbery. They try to use a ketchup bottle, poke it in somebodys back and say its a gun. They call them the idiot ketchup bandits. She gets five years. Luther gets 10. Never once before then, or the next fifteen years. Was there any record she was arrested for prostitution, ever warned about being a prostitute. She bundled a crime. She never should have tried to commit it. Not the child was of a prostitute. Not then, not ever. He goes to live in west virginia, a little factory town with his uncle bill, aunt glenna, and cousin jo ann who was three years older. I found jo ann, who has never talked before. And if you get a chance to look in the book youll see that the photograph section shows pictures of him from his baby pictures and his wedding am baby pictures wedding album. They come from his sisters. They tell the real story. Here is an interesting one jo ann told me about charlie. Say, from the time he came to live with them five years old, hes scary. Hes violent, he lies about everything. The first person he ever physically attacked was jo ann. He picked up a sickle in the backyard and tried to stab her. Her parents stopped him. His explanation she made me do it. It wasnt my fault, shes older than me. I was defending myself. In first grade, not only told to me by joann, but corroborated by other people who were in school with manson at the time, first grade, he organized some girls in his class to beat up a boy he doesnt like. The principal comes looking for charlie. His explanation . The girls were doing what they wanted to do out of their own thats what they wanted. You cant blame me. The same defense he uses all the years later with tate. His mother gets out of jail, she wants her son back. And they live in a number of places where, no, there are no uncles coming in all the time. But charles becomes an incorrigible cutter of school. His mother gets a job in a Grocery Store where he immediately starts shoplifting, and begging the different patrons to buy him candy. He is scary. Shes talks to her mother, to her sister, to the school authorities. All is documented. What can i do to help charles . And the common agreement is there are some schools for boys where maybe hell learn to follow some rules. Lets have him go there. These were not juvenile detention centers. They didnt have fences around them. When they didnt have fences around them he ran away. When he would run away, he did things. The picture on the cover of the book is a picture of Charles Manson at age 13. Hes appearing before a judge in indianapolis on charges get this one, of armed robbery. Thirteen. The question is which rigid detention for boys will he be sent to in manson, even then, knows how to convince people that hes not that bad. And he convinces this judge that he, charlie, is a devoted catholic. And so the judge sends him to boystown, where three days after he arrives, he steals a priests car and heads out for the coast. From there, yes, he goes to juvenile detention in places that are pretty bad. Things do happen to him. As a grown adult , he is 54. He is a tiny, scrawny little thing. When he says he was abused by other boys, beaten unfairly by some of the staff, yes, that may have well happened. This is also true, within the First Six Months of entering these facilities Charles Manson is not the victim but the predator. Attacking other weaker kids. Organizing boys to attack somebody else. He has a bad record, and that ends the first part of where is this Charles Manson coming from. With this note, in later years, with people i interviewed, when he was in San Francisco and los angeles, he would brag to other the juvenile detention system, he would play what he called the insane game. To keep bigger boys away from him, to intimidate staff he would act as crazy as he possibly could. Screaming and he said laughing that was the beginning of the part of the life that he calls becoming the man of a thousand hats. That no matter who he meets, he can change his personality on a dime to make you like him. To make you trust when he is about to turn 18, his aunt glenna, still living in nevada, said if youll be released from the prison system, he can have a home with his uncle and aunt and long suffering cousin jo ann, his mothers lives in wee land. Hes let out, and decides to live with his grandmother who lays down the edict. He can only live with her, rent free, if he will go to the Church Services with her every sunday and join the teen club after ward. The house where he and his grandmother lived is still there. The church is right across the street, and some of his classmates from the teen club are still alive. Theyre still willing not only to remember Charles Manson, but they have photographs. Which are in the book. Charlie wants to impress these kids, and to tell you something about his megalomania, he figured once he set them straight about the world they would follow him. The church didnt approve of halloween. Dont want to have those demonic influences, but the teenage kids in the church teen group, you know, they see their friends from school having halloween parties, they want one too. So the Church Elders make this concession. Fine, you can have a hot dog cookout at virginias house. You can come and even wear costume as long as theyre not demonic. Charlie is excited. He comes dressed as a carnival barker. We have pictures with the hat and the band around the arm. And the kids let charlie in on a secret, theyre going do something special. Theyre going to take some aspirin and drop them in a glass of cocacola, because when you dissolve aspirin in soda pop, it gets you drunk. Ssh dont tell charles tells them, thats nothing. He brags that in his recent past, hes been shooting up. They have no idea what that means. First, they think maybe hes talking about shooting a basketball. Then they think hes talking about shooting road signs. They decide whatever it is, we dont like it. Charles manson is shunned by the kids his age. Thats not the end of it, because soon after that, suddenly, charlie is going steady with the prettiest girl in town. A nice little girl named rosalee. Before you know it theyre going get married. People remember this is a situation where the wedding came late and the baby came early. Except there was no immediate issue. Charlies grandmother, you remember the one that never cared about him. Gave a wonderful wedding reception for them in her home. We have pictures of that. Pictures of the proud maddocks family surrounding charlie and her mother standing in the corner glaring. She doesnt like this. And charlie goes straight. Lasts about four whole months. He gets a steady day job, he works in the town Grocery Store in the evening, but theres just not enough money to go around. So charlie gets another outside job. He starts stealing cars. Wheeling a few miles to the north is controlled by the mob. He cant do it there. He goes across the river in ohio stealing cars and driving them to florida to sell, which is a federal crime. Though charlie doesnt think about that. Meanwhile, mansons mother gets tired of wheeling and she moves to california. This is a woman that never left charlie. Never wanted him. He decides he and his wife will go to california to live with kathleen and they do. And charlie decides to augment his living again in las angeles by riding around in stolen cars. A cop catches him, hes brought to the justice, and in the process, its learned that he drove stolen cars to florida, which is crossing state lines. Federal offense. Should be prison time, charlie pleads the fifth. His wife is pregnant. He had a terrible childhood, he suffered greatly in juvenile detention. His judgment is bad. Show mercy on him, and the court orders some studies psychology studies and the minute charlie is out of the courtroom, he immediately steals another car, puts his wife in and went indianapolis. Hes brought back to california and spend three years in prison. Now begins the interesting part. His wife visits for awhile then runs off with a trucker. She gives birth to mansons first child. Mansons mother besieges law officials with please, let him out. He can live with me. I can give him a good home. Theres a little problem, for Charles Manson, prison indeed became his educational system. Not the way you might think. With incredible timing. Remember we said history doesnt occur in a vacuum . The year before Charles Manson goes to federal prison, the whole concept of the prison system is punishing the people who are in jail. Make the years theyre in custody so horrible theyll never commit crime again. The recidivism rate is amazing. So they decide theyre going do , something differently. Theyre going to have class for inmate and teach them skills that will help them function in the outside world when they get out. Sounds reasonable. He enrolls in a class, and this class features the philosophy and the writings of the man who will become Charlie Mansons personal guru and his name is Dale Carnegie. During the research for the book, i went to nashville, tennessee where i met a man named phil cofman who was in prison with manson at this time. I said, phil, you know, i keep hearing that when people met Charlie Manson it was like he could stair in their soul, he knew what they were thinking. Do you think he had some mystic power. Phil cofman, now 80 years old, bigger than any five of us in the room, riding the biggest hair i have seen in my life laughs so hard he almost falls down and screams. Ive been waiting almost a half a god damn century for someone to ask me that question i took a step back flinching and i said, well . Man soon would come out of the Dale Carnegie classes, come back to the cell and practiced the lines he heard in class, because he thought he knew how to become a successful pimp. These lines were going help him get women later on, when i interviewed leslie, patricia at the California Institute for women prison in california said, what did Charles Manson say to you the first time he met you that made you want to follow him . He said this, he said this, he said this. Word for word out of chapter 7 how to win friends and influence people. The resumes in the Dale Carnegie class. Always let the other fellow feel that your idea is his own. Number two, the only motivations any of us have are the desire to be famous and the desire for sex. And then number three, always dramatize your desires. Actors do it. Singers do it. You must do it too to get attention. Manson took it to heart. Also studied scientology because he was very interested in how they could get people to accept that faith, and also in the concept that doing bad things is part of becoming good. You have to do bad things to overcome them, then you move up and you lose desire for everything. Which manson took as theres no bad, theres no good, theres no life, theres no death. Charlie is ready to go. He gets out of prison and sets himself up as a pimp in los angeles and back in prison in about four months. He is sent to a tougher prison. Only people ever tried to three escape. One drowned and never found the body of the other two. There is Charlie Manson back in prison. This time he hears Something Else that changes his life. He hears music of the beatles. Immediately starts telling everybody hes going to be more famous. He always loved music. His cousin jo ann remembers him picking out songs on the piano their family had when charlie was growing up in poverty and every birthday he would get a new suit of clothes and he wanted a hat and had a pony once at the birthday. He was abused and never had anything at least to hear him tell it. He has a guitar in prison writing his own songs. He tills the prison authorities hes going to be a song writer and entertainer and make his living that way. Gets outs, next is this part of his life. Hes released in california and has a friend in berkeley who invites him to go there. And overcome by the student protesters particularly the black panthers who scare the hell out of , him. When he was in prison he was racially prejudice he wouldnt talk or acknowledge black or hispanic prisoners. But the black Muslim Movement in the prison impressed him. He started telling other prisoners blacks ever organize if they have enough guns, of course he didnt use the black. They can wipe out a good part of the white race. That idea goes back there. Comes to San Francisco, this beautiful city, just during the summer of love in the book i describe how height ash bury not what thought it was going to be. You have an influx of thousand and thousand of young people. Disfranchised, problems with their own families, they are coming to San Francisco to height ash bury. Every loves you. You come to a neighborhood that support a couple of thousand people at most. Then you have almost 30,000 teens showing up every week. They are overflowing. They are starving in the street. They are sick. Dr. David e. Smith of San Francisco starts the freedom clinic to treat sick hippies who cant afford anything else. Which plays a big parking lot for Charles Manson. Dr. Smith, he knows it to take the best of other people. Turn it into his own. Dr. Smith you would have a dozen guru each preaching. You might have a hindu there, a. Baptist here, an atheist here. He said manson would stand around listening to these people. Then he would come back to the free clinic and practice the best lines on the sick hippies waiting to be treated. He would got park and using the best of everyone else would offer his own teachings. Thats how he got some followers. One at the time. In other words, Charles Manson is charsmatic. Hes not a stupid man, even though hes uneducated. Hes crafty, candley. And he knows how to take the best of other people and it turn it to his own. A lot of what comes next you have heard read about before his decision to move the family as it grows to los angeles so he can be a rock and roll star. Hangs on to Dennis Wilson, moves in a time in theful wonderful log cabin mansion off sunset boulevard. Becomes disenhanced with wilson because he cant get haim recording contract. And my interview in the book with people there at the time from Greg Jacobson to any number of folks, the thing people dont know is Dennis Wilson wasnt the only rock star that manson tried to work through. He got to be buddies with neil young, neil young tried to push mansons music to the warner record label. They didnt sign him. Tried to cozy to john philips. All them are hearing mansons music and dont think its special. Charlie knows theyre wrong. The only way he can get the record contract that he clearly deserves so you to go above the rock star. That means the boy wonder produce of top ten hit of the time. A guy named Terry Melcher at colombia. Doris days son. The guy who amaze who made the birds into a power house. Took a local garage band and made them. All he had do was audition for melcher to get the contract. There it would go. At this point, things start to go pretty wrong in several ways. Out on spann ranch a drug deal goes wrong. A friend of mansons and cup of couple of the manson women go to garys house music teacher to get the money out of him. He gave them the bad in theory, the bad drugs. He claims he doesnt have any money. They are beating him up. Manson shows up. Manson shows up he has a favorite weapon, a sword he took off he acquired from another biker. is him. Slashes him. They keep trying to beat him up. Didnt work. Finally calls manson and said do what you need do. They kill gary. But at the same time charlie has been preaching about this race war is coming. And hes telling the member of the family and again i have it separately from leslie and patricia. Its in the bible book of revelation which he helped memorize with his grandmother. I have the family bible where she underlined appropriate passages for him to memorize. Its in the bible, in revelation theres going to be a great thing happening. The beatles are telling us about it. And the white album. Blackbird fly, that means something. Helter scelter coming down fast. And he tells his followers you have two choices. You can believe what im telling you, and when the time is right, we go out in the desert to save yourselves or you can think im wrong and stay. If you do that, one of two things will happen. The blacks are going to win. Either theyll kill you, or theyll make you their slave because theyre going to do with white people. Thats karma. White people made black people slaves, now theyre going to do the same thing. There are drug sessions every day. Mansons got them isolated on spahn ranch. There are physical beatings for some of the women. Its indoctrination. Should have worked . Clearly no, people shouldnt be believing that. On the other hand, it was a time when a lot of people thought the beatles were telling us what to do. At love americans including some very prominent politicians thought a race war was inevitable. Manson is picking up on the culture the day and turning it to his own end. With the murder, they try to make it look as though black panthers or black militants committed the crime. They try to leave a bloody paw print. Manson figures what will happen then the police and media will buy to the fact that black militants are killing white people. That will kick off the revolution. And kick off helterskelter. We have talked about this in some length. He seems to agree that manson never really expected that this was going cause a race war. But his followers were getting a little shaky. Gurus have to constantly come up with new miracles. Have to if you cant go things for them, then theyre going to find somebody else. His followers, remember, have just seen Charles Manson who sometimes said hes the Second Coming of jesus. They have seen charlie fail. Leslie said the day Terri Melcher turned him down is the day he acted differently. He started acting mad. So hes failed. Hes got do something. This murder of gary doesnt accomplish at all what manson said its going to. He tries to drive off in one of his cars. The police catch him. They find a bloody knife in the car. Its garys blood. They take them to custody and manson is afraid. Because they can always turn manson in to save himself. Patricia said within the family he doesnt know who it was. They get together and someone start to talk about copy cat murders. Somebody had seen a movie about that. Maybe if there were more murders, and it looked like the black panthers had done it, then the police would to think it couldnt have been bobby because the killers are still out there and let bobby go. Now manson incorporates Dale Carnegie. Let the other fellow think the idea is his. And on the night of august 9th, first he calls in tex watson. We know a lot of conversation because its repeated in watsons book and because some of the other family members later would discuss it. The gist is manson is saying you have decided that youre going go out and kill people to try to get bobby free. Of course, youre thinking they have to be really important, rich people. That way the media cant ignore it. Now, everyone knows in the family that Terry Melcher moved from his wonderful house, but even though they dont know exactly who is living there now. Know you have to be rich and famous to afford the place. As well as tex watson is going to leave this group that night. Watson has been to that house before. He knows how to drive there in the middle of the that is why that was chosen. As patricia tells us, manson and watson emerge, and watson tells three women, patricia, susan, linda, go change your clothes in something dark. Get your knives. Its not unusual for them to say that. They were going around they expected black panthers to come after them any time. So they go get the knives. The women have no idea what is about to happen. They think maybe theyre going break into a place and steal things. They have been doing it lately. They get in the car, and start driving, they get lost a couple of times. But finally they clamber up have you been to the site of the murders . Its up a steep hill. Narrow winding road. Signs everywhere to be ware of deer. Only after they get over the fence does watson tell them theyre going to kill everybody inside. You know what . They go ahead and do it. I wont give you the blow by blow. Its pretty awful. Patricia was honest but two things came out of the interview that hadnt come out before for certain. The first is when the murders were complete and they went back to spann ranch. Manson is waiting outside the gate and interrogating them. Did you make it look bad enough . Did you write the words in blood. They explain they did some of that. Susan lost her knife. Manson, furious, tells them to wash off the blood. He jumps to the car and drives back to the house where he does some rearranging of things at the murder site. The only way that the women who were there knew that happened is during the trial, murder scene photographs are shown. In particular, what shocked patricia is back in one corner of the house there was a big American Flag. Now she looks at the pictures and the American Flag is taken out and draped dramatically over the couch in front of where sharon tates body is lying. Manson went back and did some rearranging. Then theres a second thing, when the bodies were discovered, the Police Arrested the young caretaker, he was on the ground. Everybody else was slaughtered. Nothing happened to him. They thought he was the obvious suspect but later proved he was not. This is why william lived. Patricia chases abigail to the lawn and starts stabbing her. Watson is doing the same. Patricia is not sure she killed abigail and yells i dont know if shes dead. He yells you finish her. Kill whoever is in the back house. The caretaker is behind the house. Patricia starts down the hill and turns the corner, has a dizzy spell. Stops for a minute. Then goes back and said to watson, i looked in the window there was nobody there. Thats why the kid lived. Thats why they didnt kill anybody else that night. Then theres the details of the second night. The run in to the desert when they are hiding. The the investigative teams dont get along and pretty much dont talk to each other. The arrested the main family in the desert. Brought back to l. A. Susan decides to impress some fellow women prisoners telling what shes done ties we get the everything together. Trial. This one last point, according to the women, just before the final arrest in the mohave desert, manson gems the gathers the family around him and said if shes arrested if he is ever arrested again hes going play crazy charlie , for as long as it takes until he convinces everybody hes insane and let him go. The rest of the family, if they see him acting like crazy charlie should never believe it. What we have seen since is an act that has successfully been carried on for over 44 years. Family members now, they say, well, thats his crazy charlie act. He still writes to the other family members in prison trying to keep them loyal. I was talking to patricia and she got a letter and said you want to change the world, but you let the world change you. He has active followers today. He as an organization atwa air, trees, water, animal hes a committed environmentalist. If you would care to send to send a big enough donation, he might send you some art. He gave me permission to repuce. It runs mostly swastica, spiders, and the world helter scelter with two l. Its a different book. Not just talking about manson in los angeles were talking about his whole life. The time he lived and acted in. So i leave you with this thought again. History does not happen in a vacuum. Charles manson did not either. He is a part of the 1960s and 40s and 50s. Captive,e is held as because he was not put to death when he was supposed to be. He is still here. William wrote a brilliant book and try to kill a president of the united states. Hes with us. Hes not going away. If my book accomplishes anything i hope it puts him in a little more perspective to understand who and what he really is. You have been nice paying attention. I appreciate the heck out of it. Take care. Whatever you do, dont listen to people who tell you they can take your life and make it better and all you have to do is follow their commands. Thanks, folks. Thank you for listening. [applause] if anybody has a question, i would be happy to answer. I dont want you to feel pressure with these questions. I think you said you jeff iwed manson . Wrote manson for about five months every day asking to see him. He lost most visitor privileges for having two cell phones in his cell. What his followers describe as a lie, but according to the authorities he also fashioned a toothbrush handle to a shank and caught him. He finally wrote me, making it clear he didnt want me writing the book. And have returned my email address and other Contact Information to some of his current followers, who did get in touch. We have been corresponding. Some are actually, i think, pretty nice people. They are very protective of him. And later, he gave me written permission to use some of his art in the book. Perhaps thinking it might be a good advertisement. If you of are overwhelmed by the stuff in the book, you know how to get in touch with him, i guess. You never actually met him . Jeff i havent. Hes written to me. Ive written to him. Here is what i think would have happened if i had. He is carefully orchestrated his few appearances through the media anyway. I think if i got the twenty minute visitation we would have gotten twenty minute of crazy charlie. I think the only purpose it would serve is for me to describe what he looks like now. We have been to be get his picture. His facebook page, which has posted a reply to my book is that they wanted understood that none of mr. Mannsons real friends cooperated with me. So i guess that is the fair statement. I stand by everything ive written. If you check the notes in every chapter, it is corroborated with official documents or interviews with people who were there and i repeating what they are saying. Anyone else . Shall we sing a mansoncomposed song together . I admire these folks too much to sing. They dont need to suffer like that. I was going ask you. I know i had some questions earlier about this. What his situation is. In prison, if it has changed. If he was isolated, remains isolated, how much contact he has with other prisoners. Jeff his first years in prison were tough ones. No warden really wanted him there because other prisoners might attack him and even kill him. What the heck, they have nothing to lose. You have to remember, he was sentenced to death and was on death row for the first years. The prisoners on death row immediately hated manson. It was because of mail. Everybody else collectively on death row might get one or two letters a week. Manson got 2 or 300 a day. And infuriated the other prisoners on death row by not bothering to read them. He would throw them out. Another prisoners whose nickname was pin cushion because he had survived so many stabbings, finally embraced him and said braced manson and said why arent you reading the letter. Manson said he had trouble reading. Pin cushy organized some other prisoners to read it. And couldnt believe the content of most the letter. Everyone from people saying youre going hell and im glad. To youre misunderstood. You spoke the truth and stood up now theyre going kill you. Any number of young women asking mansons permission to join the family. Every person he has been to has a factotum. He has been to he has been a de facto factotum. To this day, the nature of the letters hasnt changed. Its still youre going hell. Or youre a hero or can i join the family . He is not isolated anymore. A prisoner tried to set him on fire at one point. Hes in a special sort of holding area. Hes a vegetarian. He still has his guitar. Likes to play music, and above all else, he likes working in the hobby shop, where he will make little metal spiders he will send to folks that have won his favor. And he always welcomes money if you want to send him some. But i have seen is a letter it was 20 and sent back a note what i could only get two pack of cigarettes. Send 300. Remember, at least three figures. Its been a pleasure. Thank you for coming out on a thursday night. If you read the book theres one more question. I was wondering if he comes up for parole and he wants every once in a while, is there any chance hell get out . Jeff hell never get out of prison on parole and neither are the others. Susan died of cancer. Leslie came up for the 20 attempt at purple parole and was turned down again. The manson stigma is such that no governor is going let one of the killers out. I will say this, ive spent an awful lot of time with her and patricia. One of the people asked do you think theyre really sorry . Yes, i do. They both when i would interview them, knew i was writing things that were not necessarily going reflect well on them. They accepted that. They told me to tell me the truth. They didnt know the other people i was talking to. And i would have to have to hear it from somebody else too to be on the safe side. They accept they did unforgivable acts. They are remorseble. They are resentful of manson. They should not have done of it. They are in their own ways attempting in prison to make some kind of amend. Leslie finished her masters in philosophy and organized educational courses for young women prisoners who dont have much in the way of that. Patricia trained rescue dogs to be guide dogs for blind. They are hopeful of getting out. I think they know they wont too. I cant say that in any way i condone anything they did. Please understand that. But i think they were honest and i think their honesty helped my book give a better truer picture. For that i thank them. Truer picture. For that i thank them. How did he get off death row . Jeff the California State Court system declared the Death Penalty was unconstitutional, cruel and unusual. You mentioned thats why we have Charles Manson today. Ayres whotioned bill , was going around doing domestic bombings. Hes known as unrepentant terrorist. Its odd, hes never gone jail. Hes a professor now and launched Barack Obamas career, i think, in his living room. Its odd to contrast hes on the government payroll and established citizen now and bombing people in approximately the same era. Jake its interesting to talk to folks involved more violent student activities. I was able to interview mark rudd for the book. As you know, rudd first became famous for the Colombia University taking. He was one of the folks from the sds who helped organize it. And he was a revelation to me, and i expected him to be defensive about the things that happened. He said that things were foolish and wrong. He lives in a near state of poverty he currently lives as a 10th grade teacher in new mexico. He feels that is how he can make up by helping the poorest in society. Bill. Not talk directly to he was not directly involved in anything that i was writing about. Yes, sir . [inaudible] microphone. Could this happen today . There are still crazy people and still people who follow crazy people. Sure, we have had demagogues throughout history, but one thing i have heard from people that i disagree with is when he is is discussed, compared to hitlers. There were both for did artists, small men with the little man context. Hitlers lead the world into war. The best that Charlie Manson could do was a couple of kids at a time. There will always be demagogues. By telling you the comments somebody made in San Francisco. Withding to dr. Smith, Vincent Bugliosi and the others put together the case against manson, they tried to interview other people at the time. Was one thinghere he kept trying to tell the prosecutors that he wanted them to listen to. They said based on your interaction with him, are you surprised that he did what he did . Notdr. Smith said, no, im surprised that Charles Manson led people to these terrible acts. Are soprised that there many other potential Charles Mansons who are still around. Its going to happen. Thesecan just demystify people. If my book accomplishes nothing else, i hope it is the demystification of Charles Manson. He will be with us constantly, but at least let it be the truth about him rather than the self searching selfserving legends. Thank you to everyone for coming out. It was so nice to see you. [applause] thanks everybody. We have the book. If you would like to purchase one, they are available. History bookshelf features the best known American History writers of the past decade talking about their books. You can watch more here on American History tv on cspan three. Tonight at 8 00 p. M. , female activists and the 1960s civil rights movement. While women were instrumental in helping to put the marches together, the event was purely dominated i men. Sunday, the global significance of the declaration of independence during and after the american revolution. Many of the made their way to columbia, venezuela and ecuador. This halfcentury known to scholars as the age of revolution. At 6 00 p. M. , eyewitness account from inside the white house during the apollo 11 lunar landing. We really staked ourselves into the cabinet room. Windowsd see that the were dark into nighttime. At 4 15r module landed p. M. And the astronauts did not walk until later. , next on American History tv four former apollo era flight controllers this bus the lunar operations. Ng this panel was part of an event hosted by Space Center Houston to mark apollo 11s 50th anniversary. Good morning everybody and welcome to the 50th anniversary of the apollo moon landing. I will say that periodically throughout the day so that people will applaud. You can here that atmosphere is charged and the