Transcripts For CSPAN3 House Science Subcommittee Hearing On Electric Grid Modernization 20240714

Order. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare recess at any time. Good afternoon, welcome to todays hearing, the future of electricity delivery, monetizing and securing our nations electricity grid. I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. This is such an important topic. Im a young guy as i can tell but ive read some history about what it was like when we first started building the electric brig grade over a century from now. I dont think we could have imagined the tech elegies that we would use to power homes businesses and hospitals and i think the challenge is different. The real challenge was just extending power itself to every corner of our society. There was a challenge that those providing powers knew that they could make money in cities and well Populated Areas and places with businesses and commercial opportunities, but it was not as profitable to take it into the countryside into the hill country of texas for example. The government made a basic deal which was they would provide them essential monopoly over these areas. Firms would make money, utilities what, and in exchange they would carry their product everywhere they needed to be. In the 21st century we have a similar dilemma on our hands but theres a similar deal to be made. The challenge is not just provide power, provide power in a way that is clean and efficient and allows us to state economically competitive even as we become a society much less dependent on carbon. Electricity demand has been flat. We should see an increase as we electrify more segments in order to accomplish those goals. To get there it is clear we have to change the energy sector. There will be much more serious threats to the electric grid from Cyber Attacks and otherwise. We know the economics are changing and resources have come online. Thats good for constituents like mine that are saving money but as this changes we are going to have to invest to a grade the system meant to integrate new sources of energy and to strike a balance between them in real time which has become one of the Biggest Challenges of Battery Storage especially. Thats a technological challenge, a challenge when it comes to making basic Infrastructure Investment which is what we are talking about today. I was alarmed to hear about the first serious cyber attack on our nations electric grid back in march. At least it was reported in march. As far as we know no customers lost power in that attack but its obviously a warning sign of the incredibly serious damage that can happen if we dont take action on this issue. As is what happens when someone loses power it will be too late. The choice facing all of us is whether we can get the legislative machinery to work in such a way we can make a serious investment and try to protect folks from Cyber Attacks that we know are going to come we know that russia china and other adversaries would love to have in their back pocket the ability to shut down parts of the grade when its continued. The decision facing us is whether we allow that to happen and i speak to every member when i say that we will not. Thats why im looking forward to talking about these subjects. We have Grid Modernization Research and development which will allow us to set forth a wide array of Research Opportunities like grid modernization, Emergency Response modeling, which we know will be necessary to manage the new grid, and better integration of buildings vehicles and renewable resources. Several members of the committee including mr. Foster have already introduced legislation and we are happy to incorporate elements of those into the draft and will continue to work on making sure we do that. We are also looking at research and Development Act which updates a bill previously introduced which would provide a cross Agency Research and Development Program to do what ive discussed which is harden and mitigate the electric grid from cyber attack carried out with the department of Homeland Security, the National Institute for standards and technologies, and the National Science Foundation Education and workforce. One of the aspects that i think is often underappreciated is the fact that it is also a workforce issue. We dont have enough people trained and working in Cyber Security as we need and there will be tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands more openings many of which in my home area is great work at Carnegie Mellon and the Cyber Law Institute among others, really training people for this and thats what these kinds of programs are going to authorize. With that i recognize the Ranking Member mr. Weber for an opening statement. Thank you for hosting this hearing. I was asking about the population of pittsburgh is. The match metro areas 1. 5 million. Is that right . Thats a lot of act the. We appreciate you hosting this. We will hear from expert witnesses on strengths and weaknesses of the electric grid and the impact, the potential impact that it could have on grid reliability and National Security, witnesses will also discuss advances in research and development of new grid tools and technologies and hopefully provide in fight and to have the federal government can work alongside American Industries to strengthen the energy sector. The reliability of the power grid is one of the greatest economic strengths. I like to say that one of the things that makes America Great are the things that america makes. How do we do that . We have a strong Reliable Energy supply which is how we do it. In my home state of texas reliable and increasing by more than 1000 a day, which is why i was asking you we get 30,000 people a month in texas. Multiply by 12 and you forget what you do in a year. 1000 People Per Day and supports the industries that drive the United States consumption of energy. Texas is by far the natives biggest consumer of electricity and keeping its reliable is key to maintaining the economic growth. Even in texas it is Common Knowledge that our electric grid faces significant and diverse threats to reliability and resiliency. Simply we cannot predict when a cyber attack would threatens threaten what you referenced and we do not know when the next Natural Disaster might occur. In 2017 we were reminded of this by the impact approaching harvey, a devastating category four hurricane that hit the gulf coast and caused significant generator in transmitter line outages for many on the interconnection. Due to proper planning and management by the electric reliability council, they were able to recover quickly from this devastating storm. Its not a question of if but a question of when the same power grid will face significant cyber at tax. It must be our priority. According to the apart department of energy the us electric grid must be updated within the next decade to address challenges including aging us Energy Infrastructure, changes in demand for energy, emerging threats and fun dementing shifts in the supply portfolio as Energy Sources, rightfully so, likely nuclear and increase. We can see changes taking place in my omaha own home state where today Nuclear Generation is the most reliable source of energy. In fact, running at more than 93 of the time over the last three years. We also lead the nation in wind energy. We are number five in solar energy, by the way. As nextgeneration Energy Technologies continue to come online, and as Cyber Security capabilities continue to grow and evolve, we must take action to counter our great vulnerabilities and provide necessary dates to critical and necessary infrastructure. Thankfully, doe fund is broad research to support grid modernization and security to elegies through department collaborations like the Grid Modernization Initiative and grid modernization modernization initiative. It also funds Robust Research in grid technologies and computational modeling efforts through the office of electricity oe and Cyber Security through its office of Cyber Security Energy Security and Emergency Response seizure. We have to witnesses representing efforts, the hon. Karen evans, a sister assistant secretary and laboratory cochair of Grid Modernization Lab consortium. Welcome to all of you. Modernizing the grid will require these important programs. Along with cooperation from any federal Agency States and injure industry. I trust our witnesses could share their expertise and provide valuable insight on how congress can best support collaborative efforts. I want to thank the chairman again for holding this hearing and i look forward to productive and electrifying discussions. Mr. Chairman, i yields back. It would not be the first time that electricity was powered by a lot of hot air from texas. [ laughter ] had to include that for the Ranking Members granddaughter in the audience today. We welcome her. I think its important to note the bipartisan nature of this discussion as it often is on these subjects. Mr. Weber and i are both supporters of Nuclear Energy and all of the above strategies so one thing that doesnt always break through the headlines but is a beacon of hope someday is. At this time i would like to introduce witnesses, the hon. Karen evans is assistant secretary of the office of Cyber Security, Energy Security, and Emergency Response at the Us Department of energy. Miss evans was the National Director of the us cyber challenge, a Program Designed to help address a skills gap in the Cyber Security field. She also worked for the george w. Bush administration where she was an it official at the office of management and budget and served as the department of energy chief information officer. Mr. Juan torres is the director for at an ral and cochair of Good Management Laboratory Consortium which is a partnership of 14 labs to advance modernization of the us power grid. Prior to joining he held a variety of positions over the course of a 27 year long career at Sandia National laboratory where he worked on securing infrastructure among other topics. Miss Kelly Speakesbackman is the chief executive officer of the Energy Storage association and is worked in the public ngo and private sectors including united technologies, son edison and the alliance to save energy. Shes a former commissioner of the Maryland Public Service commission where she also served as chair of the board of directors of the regional Greenhouse Gas initiative, co vice chair of the year naruc committee, and the Energy Efficiency and grid modernization public advisory group. And miss Katherine Hamilton is the chair of 38 n. Solutions, a Public Policy consultancy specializing in innovation and the executive director of the advanced Energy Management alliance. She previously ran the grade Wise Alliance and was directed to the Energy Storage association, and worked at the National Renewable energy laboratory. Catherine worked in Building Research and spent a decade designing Electrical Systems for commercial and residential developments. As a witness, you will each have five minutes for spoken testimony, written testimony will be included in the record and when you have completed spoken testimony we will begin with questions. We will start with the testimony of ms. Evans. Chairman lamp, Ranking Member weber lamb, it is an honor and privilege to serve as the assistant secretary for the office of Cyber Security, Energy Security, and Emergency Response. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on behalf of the department. One of the most Critical Missions is developing science and technology to successfully encounter the ever evolving increasing threat of cyber and other attacks on our networks, data, facilities, and infrastructure. Doe works closely with federal agencies, state and local tribal and territorial governments, industry, and National Laboratory partners to accomplish this mission. Another Critical Mission is ensuring the resilience of our electric grid and successfully countering the ever evolving increasing threat of physical and Cyber Attacks. Doe recently announced an investment of innovations that will enhance reliability and resiliency of our Nations Energy infrastructure. This will spur the development of the next generation of tools and Tech Knowledge he is that will become widely adopted throughout the energy sector. As we protect infrastructure from Cyber Threats we are working to improve and complete resilience of electricity systems. The office of electricity and Transmission System resilience and generation diversity, and exploring new architecture approaches for the elect grid including the development of the north American Energy resilience model that aims to provide unique and groundbreaking National Scale Energy Planning and realtime Situational Awareness capability to enhance security and resilience. A large component is pursuing cuttingedge innovation and big data, Artificial Intelligence, and grid scale Energy Storage based on new technology. Grid scale storage will be an important enabler for renewable integration and a clean base for power. While todays technologies are providing value to the grid, there are physical limitations to traditional batteries and pumped hydro that will be surpassed by the next generations technologies. Efforts in Energy Storage are producing important advancements. Energy Storage Technologies have been demonstrated using new generations of advanced low batteries for lower cost electrolytes. We are continuing to advance Energy Storage through the advanced initiative which includes the development of a new grid storage launchpad aimed at accelerating materials development, testing independent evaluations of technologies for greater applications. In addition to r d at the National Laboratory supports the development of technology that strengthen and improve infrastructure so that consumers have access to reliable insecure sources of energy. Another program driving enabling technologies is doe Grid Modernization Initiative which focuses on the integration of increasing the amount of variable generation into the grade through R D Investments at the national labs. One noteworthy effort will accelerate the conversion of the National Wind Technology Campus into experimental micro grid capable of testing Grid Integration at a megawatt scale. These are a few of the examples of how the United States is approaching its commitment to updating and improving improving Energy Infrastructure and environmental responsibility within its own board of. These issues are also at the heart of so many partnerships and work abroad. Reliant and resilient Energy Infrastructure is critical to the us economy is competitiveness innovation and leadership. The longterm approach will strengthen National Security and positively impact our economy. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee and im happy to answer questions at the appropriate time. Thank you. Mr. Torres . Chairman lamp, Ranking Member weber, thank you for this opportunity to discuss grid modernization and Cyber Security and the Research Needed to create a more resilient us power system. I serve as the associate Laboratory Director for Energy Systems integration at the department of energy Renewable Energy laboratory or nral in golden colorado. Ive been affiliated with federal research in our system for more than 29 years and my current position, i direct the efforts of nral to strengthen resilience and security of the nations electric grid. In addition, im cochair of the Laboratory Consortium and team lead for security and resilience research. I commend the committee for its timely discussion giving that every aspect of the economy, National Security and Critical Infrastructure in the us is repentant dependent on the operation of electrical system. Im often asked when will you be finished modernizing the grade . The answer is that modernization is adjourning. Its not a single destination. As long as we need in the electricity to remain competitive and defend the nation against evolving threats, and to maintain our way of life, we will need to continually advance electronic electric infrastructure. Fundamentally research we are conducting is to assure that our future grid has greater resilience to hazards of all types. Improve reliability for everyday operations, enhancing security from increasing and evolving threats, continued affordability to maintain economic prosperity, superior flexibility to respond to uncertainty of conditions at different time scales, including a range of Energy Futures. Weve come a long way in a few short years of investment through the Grid Modernization Initiative but there remains more work to do. Researchers had the opportunity to strengthen the trajectory of the grids development. This work will in turn inform Investment Decisions we make today so we can impact increase the impact of technology that will serve the grid for decades to come the steps we will take will go toward pressing challenges such as a changing mix of generation types. A need for costeffective Energy Storage, extreme weather events, and increasing physical threats, electrification of transportation systems, and growing use of digital and communication technologies. Id like to highlight a few examples of the important work ongoing along the system through doe support. The deep modeling capabilities providing the basis for the doe office of north American Energy resilience model that will help understand the state of resilience for the power grid and natural gas infrastructure. With the Solar Technologies office we are developing a roadmap that will guide Cyber Security to confront the needs of the Solar Energy Sector and other distributed Energy Systems. As i speak with you, in partnership with the Technologies Office and the International Technical commission, today, is hosting a Cyber Security workshop at the National Wind Technology Center at nral s flat iron campus bringing key industry players together for the first time to address the Cyber Security needs of the growing wind power industry. Finally i applaud the subcommittee for commitment and insight that you are shown showing and with pending legislation that addresses critical challenges of our future electric grid. The benefit cannot be fully realized without the appropriate business models, regulatory structure, and policies to support and enable them. Given the importance of these issues to the National Laboratories and congress, id like to invite you to attend National Lab Day on capitol hill in the Rayburn House Office building. The event will be focused exclusively on grid modernization and Cyber Security and many grid researchers and experts from the lab as well as myself will be on hand for discussion and a series of exhibits that will highlight much of the work im discussing today. Thank you for the privilege of addressing the committee and i look forward to questions you may have. Thank you. Miss speakesbackman . Chairman lamb, Ranking Member weber and members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the esa thank you for the role of opportunity to speak today. Energy Storage Technologies are transforming the way that we generate deliver and use electricity because it essentially decouples the element of time from when we make it move it and sell it. The simple concept enables enormous amounts of capabilities for the grid supplying backup power, reducing peak system demands, relieving stressed infrastructure, forming Generational Services like wind and optimizing generational like nuclear. Most people think of a battery but there are a variety of technologies, not only different types of batteries like flow batteries but mechanical Storage Technologies like and hydro and flywheels, and power to gas Storage Technologies Like Hydrogen and ammonia. Each has its own characteristics and best suited applications but ill do the same job of storing energy for use when and where its needed most. Its uniquely flexible among all resources and is the only resource that operates as supply and demand is a single as it. Ive outlined in my written testimony our claim quoting my fellow panelist Katherine Hamilton the storage of the grid which makes everything a little bit better. Into research and Development Act to modernize this and secure the electric grid. For the remainder of my testimony im going to outline the recommendations from written testimony which are intended to strengthen the effect of the proposed legislation. In section 3 enhancing grid response the proposal to enhance resilience is really important particularly in light of the terrible impact of the increasingly frequent Severe Weather events limiting access to electricity. Grants for projects that increase the resilience of the electric service with distributed Energy Resources will speed up the abilities of local governments to prepare for the next disaster. Its also important for the federal government to use information that it gathers in an effort to improve the economic case for resilience investment. More broadly, so they can measure costeffectiveness and the private sector can step in when proposed grant money is spent. To that end esa asks the subcommittee to consider directing doe to work with stakeholders to develop a method for quantifying the economic value of resilience. In section 6, there are a number of commendable revisions of grid scale Energy Storage reflecting bipartisan ideas from hr 2909 and hr 2986 the better Energy Storage technology act. Esa endorses both bills. When we create a Competitive Grant Program for state and local governments, utilities, public power authorities and rural coops seeking support for incorporating storage into longterm planning and grid operations. We request the subcommittee includes the Competitive Grant Program from sections 4 and 6 to accelerate learning through experience and share the investment responsibilities. It emphasizes doe investments and projects to provide flexibility on intraday, intraday, and seasonal basis. They are intended to establish cost and performance targets which is critical to developing commercial Organization Milestones but may pose a risk to innovation unintentionally limiting development pathways. Section 7, we commend the subcommittee for efforts to drive storage systems. Hybrid systems with storage are relatively new and we ask that the subcommittee seek a report on the current rules of interconnection, market participation, and accreditation of hybrid Energy Systems. In section 8, in addition to the rdd programs for integrating electrified transportation systems, we recommend adding complementary efforts on reuse of batteries of infrastructure and electric grid service. Reuse lower costs and divert useful assets from recycling or disposal. With that i think you for the opportunity to speak to these issues and i welcome your questions. Ms. Hamilton . Good afternoon. My name is Katherine Hamilton and im sure of 38 n. 38 n. Solutions. , a coalition of providers and consumers. Thank you to chairman lamb, Ranking Member weber, and the entire subcommittee to it testify you before you today. A lot has changed since i last appeared. Energy resources are the cheapest source of electricity and storage is able to replace other plants. Innovation has been instrumental allowing resources to effectively and safely integrate into the electric grid and while integration continues, federal investment is crucial to solving many of the most complex puzzles around grid modernization which would that create a great deal of leadership. It is a great deal that it focuses on the need of resilience given wildfires and other creative incidents. Reliability is the percentage of availability over time while resilience is the ability to recover quickly from a specific situation. Distributed resources such as micro grids that can provide resources to communities will be important to increasing resilience. In addition to metrics, data should be reflected on cost of downtime and customer impact. I suggest a section on risk be developed mapping out from a physical as well as economic standpoint. Smart Grid Technology deployments have allowed the grid to operate with greater visibility. The year of detective work necessary to determine that the blackout of 2003 was caused by a range in cleveland would no longer be the case thanks to those technologies. The focus on modeling is greatly needed. They can determine longterm investment in generation resources that may or may not be necessary but are paid for by consumer rate resources. Most are lacking considering demandside resources in the process so resources from demand response to solar, Energy Efficiency, all can contribute to the customer not just being a load on the system but becoming part of the resource allowing supply and demand sides to become interchangeable. Technology demonstrations are key to proof of concept gathering data for innovative solutions, a concept that has been used to some degree is a sandbox where an area is set aside completely free of regulation and were multiple approaches can be experimented with, removed from penalty and additional experimentation can lead to more creative solutions. Advanced storage has grown tremendously unseen exponentially reduced cost. They have been nurtured and funded at the therapy and continued r and d should attest to use cases. Instead of identifying this is prescribing time durations, i recommend stating the problems that should be solved or services delivered and allow a new technologies to be delivered that fit those needs. Grid integration is key to understanding how these can interact to multiply benefits of interactive technologies for the grid and consumers. In addition to protecting sensitive great information, any standards for thirdparty access should be reasonable while ensuring privacy of information. I would caution against being overly prescriptive and inadvertently stifling innovation including those that can mitigate security risk. While programs are not necessarily designed to reduce emissions, tracking the impact is still useful as we transition to a cleaner Energy Future and explore technologies whose impacts are still relatively unknown. Finally i propose adding a new section to the bill focused on social science. Given the speed of energy transition, it is lagging. It should not be the only leading source of entrepreneurship but should lead the world in building and deploying technologies. Prop powerplants repurposed, and workers trained to adjust to new technologies, the us is the Global Leader on clean and Smart Technology but to continue on that trajectory we must sustain our programs in ways that can assist entrepreneurs, our workforce communities and consumers. Thank you again for allowing me to testify and showing leadership and Modernization Research and development. At this point we will begin the first round of questions. I recognize myself for five minutes. Ms. Hamilton, i would like to start where you left off which is the need to make sure we are thinking ahead on the impact of jobs that this transition will have. It will have it whether we like it or not so as far as im concerned what are we going to do about it . The whole theme of the hearing is how are we going to protect the grid and make sure peoples power is protected and that their data is protected . We also need to make sure their jobs are protected and i believe we can do that. There will be physical work that needs to be done to adjust our infrastructure, to install new equipment. But, i was hoping you could say a little bit more about what that would look like as a Research Project. What are some ideas of the type of research we would have to authorize . Who would be doing it, what we need to know, and when . Anything you could say on that please. Thats a great question. Its something i think about a lot because since i was in the utility, the workforce has been aging. About 30 consists of millennials, about 40 of engineers. Millennials tend to change jobs faster than we use to. You would start in the utility and retire. People change jobs a lot faster and there are more types of jobs so we need to find out what trainings are needed. I think its important for a Research Project to look at what are the skills that we need and where do we need to source those . Who can do that . What are skills that transfer really easily . For example, a coworker that is an engineer or an electrician may transfer really well into Energy Storage or solar where an electrician might be needed. I think there is some of that to be done. In california right now, there are wildfires potentially going to cause Public Safety outages of 30 days or more. Substantial outages. There are not enough trained Tree Trimmers to do the work needed on vegetation management. You cant send a kid out with the bushwhacker. This is trained labor. There are a lot of job needs and opportunities and people who dont have jobs. We need to somehow match those. Bring in the Public Sector and private sector together on that seems to me to be a good way to think about that anybody else want to jump in on that topic . Are you familiar with researchers or people doing this kind of work who may be able to add to that . We will be sure to look at that on our own. Ms. Evans, on a similar theme, i know at the beginning we are short on the Cyber Security workforce and the jobs that need to be done there. Can you talk a little bit about how our bill or future efforts that we may make can help us incentivize people to not only go into the areas of Cyber Security but to serve the public the way that you have and help us protect these assets . Thank you mr. Chairman. Theres a lot of work already going on in this area that i know you are aware of under the National Institute of standards and the department of Homeland Security, and with the executive order that was recently released. Under the categories of cyber, it is always going to increase. Its never going to go away. And also, as my esteemed colleague described, the utility workforce, you are going to have to constantly look at what skill sets youre going to need. We are focused on what we would call the First Responders and those types of skills if you want to have and you also have to build out who are the specialists or if you think about it on a 1 to 10, thats going to have to constantly be look that. What is the right mix for the government as well as private industry. You know this from hosting the Cyber Security challenge of promoting it we need to be willing to look into our educational pipeline and realize that starting younger people on the projects and getting skills at an earlier age will be essential for us to get ahead of this. Its harder to retrain someone at the older age and give them the confidence they need to make the transition than if we have people interested from the beginning. With that i will recognize mr. Weber. Assistant secretary evans, one of the things that makes texas unique is our grid and its my understanding that this allows texas to respond more quickly to cyber, physical threats and fiscal attempts since they operate under one set of regulations to the agency in texas. In your opinion, are texas utilities more or less vulnerable because they have that kind of operating system . I dont know that i want to say they are more or less vulnerable. I think the way texas has approached this is that they are aware and as was mentioned in the testimony of my colleagues where we were talking about shifting more toward risk, they have the ability to constantly evaluate the risk regardless of whether its a physical risk, a cyber risk, or a weather risk. It depends on how the mix works but because of the way they were working on it they can always constantly evaluate the risk. You are aware that they are accountable to the Utilities Commission . The state as a whole gets to have control of that grid in those undetermined areas there. I think it helps them work quicker and faster. I want to come back to you as well on your prepared testimony. You said that the existing project and Artificial Intelligence and technology also, how are they using ai to strengthen Cyber Threats . And part b, the chairman talked about training people and young people going into these different jobs. If the department is finding that they can find and retain young people and train people in computing . I will take the second part of the question first. What we are doing is we have an education piece associated with what is happening in caesar. We have a competition which is the cyber force competition that reaches out to all the universities. Several participate, so that is our outreach. We are attempting to work with labs to hire directly. We have a challenge like the rest of the government and this sector as a whole. We are working on creative ways for our authority to be able to do that. On the other part of the question looking at how we are using Artificial Intelligence and quantum computing, we have several research and Development Efforts underway but is really to try to get it machine to machine so you are elevating these levels. How we know is to build that into the technology and solutions and have those learning capabilities go across data storage as it relates back to the Artificial Intelligence piece. Then we can feed them into the intelligence sector. I can tell you the folks that i visit there that are studying there are very interested in how we are going about doing this so im hoping they hire them i want to follow up with you. What are you experiencing in that same vein of thought . With regards to both questions i will start with Artificial Intelligence and the advanced technology concepts. What we are seeing as the grid is evolving to the point that humans will not be able to respond quickly enough to all of the information thats going to be available to them, they are going to be needed with some types of technologies. We are looking into Autonomous Systems where we can incorporate some of the intelligence to maintain reliability but also we need to do this in a way where we incorporate security from the beginning and assume systems are going to be targeted. We are doing research and the list particular space. What we are seeing is the pipeline is just not going to be strong enough. Their graduate studies and research, we see a shortfall in flux with backgrounds in computer science, computer engineering, Electrical Engineering and the power grid. I think i heard earlier that most of the workforce in the utility sector used to work their entire careers and they dont do that anymore. How can we retain researchers and how can we maintain leadership and technologies that are going to shape future groups . Thank you for this hearing and think witnesses for the testimony. I wanted to follow up on one of the things we were just talking about here, Artificial Intelligence. I introduced Artificial Intelligence to research or a greater act which would provide resources to advance the science of ai in multiple applications. Mr. Torres was just speaking about this. I wanted to ask mr. Torres, what are some of the Research Directions that need to be addressed to assume an economist grid . Do you think they have the research necessary to pursue that right now . I dont think ive done a full assessment to be able to answer that but i can tell you about some of the things where i think the department of energy can have some impact. There are some foundational aspects to Artificial Intelligence applications that we need to develop further. We have applications going on right now where we are applying ai concepts to the grid. The focus is on building out for foundational areas that i think are important. One is complex systems and understanding complex systems theory. The second is big data analytics. The third is nonlinear control. Weird seeing some of the linear control concepts used now on the grid may not apply in a highly decentralized type of system. The fourth area is optimization. How do you get all of these complex and highly distributed, where intelligence may be distributed, to Work Together to achieve some sort of common goal so that it works as a cohesive system . There is opportunity to continue to advance some of the foundations to apply ai for the grid specifically. Do you have anything you want to add there . What i would like to offer you is that the secretary is committed to the ai and undersecretary has been working on this so i would like to get back to you specifically about what those functions are doing. I know what we are doing in our area as it relates to cyber but the department is fast. We appreciate that. In addition to ai, everyone on this committee hopefully knows by now that might interest in promoting social Science Research and the importance of social Science Research with the great importance that it has to fit in with other research. We are very happy ms. Hamilton raised that. Integrating social Science Research of this area that we are talking about. One thing i would note because i come from working with entrepreneurial countries, innovation has become more democratized so innovators are not limited to labs universities or utilities. They are kids in basements playing with their applications. Trying to make sure that Research Programs are able to connect the dots so that we can bring them to test or have proof of concept because no utility is going to purchase a piece of equipment that was designed in someones basement. They need to know that the department of energy and National Laboratories have given it the seal of approval and shown credibility by testing it. I feel like while part of that is bringing new people into the industry because there are so many excited young people coming in, we also need to make sure that we then connect them to the programs that are existing, to an which the road programs as well. I appreciate that. I dont have much. I yields back. We recognize mr. Cloud. Thank you for being here. I wanted to touch on emp is. The commission that assessed the threat from electronic attacks will have warned that a highaltitude emp is a quote existential threat to the United States and its allies. That sounds ominous. In the written testimony you mentioned that caesar is working to address the risk by sharing knowledge with the industry in developing mitigation strategies. Could you explain this, a little bit of what youre doing to communicate with stakeholders how progress is going and what readiness is at this point . Thank you for the opportunity to talk about that. The administration did send an executive order dealing specifically with them. We are leveraging the research that is already there. Theres a group that we work with within the national labs, the center for emp gmd simulation modeling Analysis Research and testing. It involves several labs and because of that research previously done. Sandia is at the center and then we have livermore involved and a lot of this is how do we model it . How do we do the validations for some of the things in that study so we can work with industry for efc see work and oil oil and gas to share that with them . There is a debate on whether you need to harden it to military standards or the impact based on wavelengths . The testbeds are being developed and to the point about being able to validate, thats what we are doing. We intend to accelerate that provided what happens in our fiscal year 2020 budget, i know the house passed this and included the ability for us to do the research so we are looking forward to continuing that work. Are you communicating with local governance and Power Providers or is it more as dale in the Research Phase . How we work with state and local governments and through industry partnerships and then with councils, we convey that and work with the National Governors association. We work through the associations as well so the information and research to date is shared. They also know the project plan is Going Forward and who we are working with in the National Office as well. Are you getting feedback of what challenges are on the ground . The hardest part is to what level and i would like mr. Torres to jump in if you feel inclined, what exactly having investment Going Forward and how you would harden different pieces. You are sharing they are sharing information so that decisions can be made. And then reaching out and sharing the information, its an Investment Decision and how they are Going Forward. To any of you want to speak to that . I totally agree with everything that was said. There is an element of the energy released during an emp that is similar to geomagnetic disturbance event so that is something we need to take into account that is probably more likely. It may be higher probability but also severe consequence. I think it does need a little more studied study. The commission has formed and reformed but i would suggest that maybe we take a forward looking spin as we take a look at emp. How do we harden the grid of today. Theres a lot more going on in distribution and mix and we need to do some analysis to project how do we harden the grid of the future. Thank you chairman lamb and Ranking Member weber for holding this hearing. Im sure many of us in many places and across the country but on this committee, i also sit on the House Armed Services committee, that especially given mr. Torres what you mentioned about the blackout and how we are very concerned about the electrical grid and infrastructure of the National Security issue on a broader level as well as looking forward as an infrastructure issue. We know we have significant work to do and im glad that you are doing this work. Talking about the national imperative and Cyber Security Research Development act, Cyber Security being one of the major threats. Im curious to hear how you would assess the current state of our grid Cyber Security efforts and what additional things to help bolster those efforts. Some of the i want to echo some of the colleagues that my esteemed colleague mentioned. There is a robust mechanism that we have is a Sector Specific Agency and the whole government approach that we take Like Department of Homeland Security and transportation depending on what we are looking at. One thing to do is where will he be in the future, and based on risk modeling which has already been talked about. Id like to bring up again the north american resiliency model along with that is doing with the national riskmanagement sister. And be able to give a databased type of data decisions based on where we are, how we can project this into the future, and what is the mix going to look like. I applaud with the committee is doing, to be very forward leaning into what do you think and how research should be 10 to 15 years of now on that grade in the future. We talk about storage and generation. I represent oklahoma which is well known of course as an oil and gas state. A collection of Renewable Energy and in fact 39 of the energy reproduces three renewables. Looking at technologies and beyond batteries and where we are of the resiliency factor, and speaking with utility providers one of the challenges is that we diversify Energy Sources is ready access beyond cyber issues and other security issues. Can you speak to where we are in developing some of these other technologies to make them accessible beyond batteries . Oklahoma specifically does not have Battery Storage necessarily installed but theres about 259 mw of pumped storage in the state so we congratulate you on that. In terms of other technologies . In terms of other technologies, pumped storage dors the amount of capacity actually installed in the United States when you think about Hydro Storage as well. Shorter wheels are being used in shorter run higher power applications. Some demonstration levels right now, thermal Storage Technologies even when you think about buildings being a thermal storage opportunity, there are a number of state program that encourage water heaters and is also a level of storage. Of course those technically are very advanced, just not used as much in grid applications as well as they could. Theres also molten salt storage technology, technologies that are promising and are yet to commercialize. The progress has been made on those as well. Thank you very much. I yield back. Mr. Biggs for five minutes . Thank you for holding this important hearing. Thank you for being here with us today. It relies on a sub security front to keep Delivery Systems safe and im pleased that the president and administration has made this a psych priority. It calls for the development of a site superior sub security workforce. The strategy states that a hybrid highly Skilled Workforce is a strategic advantage. While i agree with this assessment, nearly 2 years ago i had the opportunity to moderate a panel on the State University Cyber Security conference and we focused on education and workforce. It included Cyber Security professionals, the National Institute of standards and took elegy. The issue was raised, and some of you have addressed this in the Workforce Shortage that this company is facing, the center for Strategic International studies reported the us was facing a shortfall of 314 of 314,000 Cyber Security professionals. I think its important that we work and encourage a free market to develop a Cyber Workforce capable of managing not just the threats of today but anticipate threats of tomorrow particularly in the energy industry. Im going to start with the question that i want to give each of you a shot at answering and then have a few more questions. If you could help me out by being as concise but is informative as possible, how do you think the government can become better partnered with Higher Education institutions to form an education pipeline that will actually meet the Cyber Security Workforce Needs to keep our electric grid safe . We will start with ms. Hamilton and go to my right, your left. Ill be quick because im not a cyber expert but on cyber education you need to start younger than that. We need to have it in Elementary Schools to get kids interested in doing this. I think making sure that you bring in, some of you will bring in teachers whether its from a university or a middle school. Are you talking about stem or stem or if you are interested in specific cyber getting kids interested in that im also not a Cyber Security expert but im thrilled that my 15yearold twin girls are here because their high school has a program partnered with the Us Naval Academy specifically on Cyber Security and i really want them to take it. These are your daughters . Please raise your hand so we can put pressure on you publicly. Thank you. We are helping out. Mr. Torres . I would concur with my colleagues. Its important to spark that interest in stem fields. The other thing is i think we need to provide mentoring because its not just hitting the workforce out there but future teachers and future professors. This is back to a point that i made earlier which is that we need to continue to get people to advance their education and be mentors and mentor future teachers as well as future applications. Im going to skip, maybe we could have a oneonone dialogue later. I have to ask another question which intrigues me because mr. Torres has repeatedly talked about the future grid and what the grid looks like in the future. Its really tough to be clairvoyant obviously but im wondering what your thoughts are on the role that microgrids might make the grid more resilient. And, what does the micro grid of the future, what may that look like . As you talked about future grids we will talk to you. And micro grid, the simple way to define it is essentially a grid that has its own generation, its own electrons and can connect and disconnect from the larger grid. They do have their role and dont need to be used everywhere. I foresee the future grid will be a hybrid of centralized grid bases with decentralized micro grids especially for critical loads. Theyve been very applicable where youve had military installations, highly critical loads like hospitals, key Industrial Areas and so on, that may have lower reliability connection to the utility grid. And, where you may have some very sensitive types of loads sensitive to disturbances in the grid. You need to write fit and write size it. Unfortunately my time is expired. Thank you. Thank you for holding the hearing and thank you to the panelists. I want to start with a shout out to the grid innovation caucus that i cochair with my colleague from ohio. The purpose is to discuss policy and technology but also to help educate members of congress and get people excited about this issue because its important. Assistant assistant secretary evans weve heard about how Artificial Intelligence, how important the benefits are including in the context of grid modernization and security what role you think ai can play improving resilience of our nations electric system . I think it has a critical role. Mr. Torres already highlighted some of the specific things of what we are talking about looking at Software Defined networks, analyzing the data, taking the things that we know are going to happen and try to remove some of what is happening at a human level that can be done by Artificial Intelligence, by machine learning. That is the area we are exploring so that we can look at higher analysis of security. And also, the risleys resilience and being able to model resilience and realtime. Is there a risk that adversaries could use to attack our system . My opinion of having to go forward forever great new innovation, and i believe mr. Torres also highlighted this, we have to evaluate whether the potential risks associating that, and what could happen as we deploy those. We dont want to stifle innovation. Want to take advantage of how to use them but having the right mitigations in place. Those types of attacks are going to happen whether we deploy ai or not. I concur with assistant secretary evans. I would add that any tool or weapon can be used for good or for bad. Its an imperative for us to maintain that leadership in advance of those technologies in they can actually deter any negative use or attacks on these systems im concerned about the attack on march 5. There wasnt much damage done but what would be the potential damage if attackers had access to the system . Real access . The attack youre referring to was a denial of Service Attack on utility out west. My understanding is that it basically blinded or the operators may have lost control or visibility from some of the devices. The attack was on the supervisory control and Data Acquisition system used to monitor and control elements of the power grid. If someone were to gain access they could potentially disrupt operation of the grid and may because the operator to make a mistake in operation. We are facing increasing risk here right . Theres a potential to increase near the end user. I believe through the feds program under assistant secretary evans, we do have a roadmap to essentially secure the connectivity down to the meter essentially so that we try to minimize the risk back upstream to the utility. Miss speakesbackman . What is important to consider when deciding what type of Energy Storage system is most appropriate for a particular location . Thank you for the question. Certainly there are geographic considerations when it comes to pump storage, Hydro Storage, underground large expanses of underground. When you are talking about Battery Storage that can be scaled behind peoples meters in the home. It can be grid scaled, commercial and industrial applications. The biggest consideration that are not necessarily having to do with technology itself in terms of its capabilities, but the application you are going to be using it for. When you need to be in Rural Communities when coops are needing to use it to offset the cost of transmission upgrades and distribution of trades then you will want to use a specific type of battery or other to elegy that can be a longer duration. When you talk about eating in the northeast you need a longer duration storage type of application for weeks, hours, even months when it comes to wintertime issues. The cost goes up dramatically after a couple of hours of usage of the storage system . Yes it can. I yield back. Mr. Casten . Thank you chairman lamb and to our witnesses for being here. As we consider how to get to a low or hopefully zero carbon future we are increasingly constrained by had to have a flexible enough grid that can accommodate these sources of power. It is a really important and really critical issue and im decided excited to see this committee taking seriously those issues, we have a lot of ways we can solve that. We can solve it through Market Mechanisms that i think achieve has to be grid skill energy store ands storage. At the promoting grid storage act of 2019, i want to thank miss speakesbackman for their support of hr 2909. One of the most important aspects is the competitive grant Storage Program for storage funded at 150 million over five years. The program is unique in that it would empower local entities to identify specific objects and compete for funds instead of waiting for the doe to identify specific projects to fund. Miss speakesbackman are you aware of any Competitive Grant Programs at doe that currently operate like the programs put forth in section 6 . Not specifically which is why weve been so strong in our support of promoting grid storage act because not only does it allow the market to participate in the selection of these types of projects but skin in the game. The market or disappearance are also putting their own Business Risk at this so we think its going to accelerate the demonstration project success. Youve answered my second question of why that structure was helpful. In your opinion, does the Grid Modernization Research and Development Act of 2019 in its current form do enough to empower stakeholders to bring demonstration projects for that in bring barriers and lower the risks . We are really excited about this potential but there are a number of things that can be done to further this. One that is important is that you had the conversation about resilience. It is to support, for doe to support the investigation into how states can prove cost effectiveness for resilience. This is an issue that i had in 2011 where utilities can invest in reliability and there are metrics for that but they cannot invest in resilience because there arent correct metrics to prove cost effectiveness. We think thats an important part. The other part is sections 4 and six i think could be included in this particular draft legislation to be so helpful. Thank you. Im concerned that it does not do enough to facilitate Energy Storage technologies. Dont get me wrong. Technical assistance is important but without efforts to further derisk those and the rate they are adopted by utilities and coops, it will be too slow for the scale needed to combat the climate crisis. I live in illinois and we started to see an increase in co2 emissions because we were deploying so much energy and now because it is so hard to cite transmission we are installing inefficient but quick ramping guess generation. Weve got to get it out there. To add a comment i completely agree in the fact that Energy Storage, the major delay in having this deployed on a major scale is how it fits within the regulatory construct and how it fits within the integration itself. Its really more of a commercial question more than a technology question. I think the technology is ready to go. Im about out of time but i appreciate your testimony. I hope i can persuade the chairman to work with me to help strengthen the bill as it pertains to Energy Storage technologies. I yield back. Thank you mr. Foster. My colleague mentioned the difficulty of citing power lines. There are two components of that. Theres a big difficulty thats much worse as you approach cities. The obvious solution is to bury power lines and that is hellishly expensive presently. How extensively have people looked into just Robotic Assembly of underground power lines . Is there any hope to make a big dent in the cost . Are there technological approaches that may lower the cost of buried power lines or has that been mind out already . Anyone familiar with any big initiatives that have been tried along those lines . I think you will have the issue of having to get either Eminent Domain from folks as you put them in. Youd want to look for other rightsofway as. Its for buried power lines. You dont have to look at them, those that believe cancer is caused by electric power lines, if you cant see the line that seems to bother them less and so on. It strikes me that that might actually, if theres money to be squeezed out of that cost to bury power lines that may be a good r d demonstration initiative. The other that would be a legal mechanism, theres an undocumented drop in real estate prices near highvoltage power lines for partly rational and partly irrational reasons. The question is if theres an existing rightofway and it comes time to build the power line, theres typically a big outcry even though its an established and documented right away. I didnt realize this when i bought my house but now they will look at the rational part which is that real estate values are going to drop if its going to be put in. And then theres the rational thing, or maybe its rational, but they dont like looking at the power line. If there was a Legal Framework that allowed those affected in terms of real estate value, and impact to contribute to burying the power line, im not sure exactly what that would look like whether you give someone were going to build the power line and its going to be expensive. Capturing a part of that cat rise. Its a win all the way around particularly as the power lines approach cities. Being unaware of things like this, hardening the grid by putting things like a dc overlay you have to get past the difficulty. There may be opportunities for probably federal law to enable that sort of deal to be struck with the surrounding community. Just to make a couple comments on another piece of legislation, being introduced as well. Just encouraging Energy Storage r d and demonstration projects has probably been pretty well discussed. My apologies for having to jump back and forth. Is there anything that has not yet and settled on those lines that may be worth mentioning . Id like to add that esa and other associations have strongly endured and endorsed the act as a good opportunity. I think theres a good chance of one of those combinations of things to have a chance at getting through the legislative graveyard but that may be an exception to that. The the storage itc and a number ng other pieces. The last thing in my last three seconds, when you look at advance and clear technologies some have the ability to essentially add storage mark by worth running at a flat level you actually spike it up if you have a big storage tank in if you had a big capacity. Is not being factored into the modeling and cost incentives when people look at advanced nuclear, that some techniques have this and others dont . There has been a lot of discussion of the department of energy about trying to incentivize techniques that had Storage Capacity of some kind. I cant speak to what is being counted in and not for the nuclear side but i can say for various technologies this is one of the things we are asking from doe and they been doing some work on. The valuation of the various applications for Energy Storage , that it flattens out and increases efficiency of the grid overall. I guess i am well over time so i yield back in my negative balance of time. Before we bring the hearing to a close i want to thank witnesses for appearing and sharing great information. The record will remain open for two weeks for additional statements from members and additional questions the committee may have. The witnesses are excused and the hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]