Transcripts For CSPAN3 HUD Secretary Ben Carson Testifies On Housing Policies 20240714

Test. Test. Test. Test. Thank you very much for your service, sir. The gentleman from missouri, mr. Clay. Theres also the chair for the subcommittee on housing, Community Development, and insurance, recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. And mr. Secretary, lets discuss the wellston, missouri, Housing Authority, which hud has had in receivership for the last 22 years. As you are aware, there is a planned demolition of a number of units, which will displace tenants, uproot lives, and cause utter confusion in those lives. Children will be forced to change schools, and some parents will have drastic changes to their life and work schedules. As you know, we are looking at several options, which we have discussed, including the grand families concept and section 202 housing. Could you please walk us through a displacement such as this and tell us what does hud do to serve the Affordable Housing needs of these residents and ensure that they have access to safe, affordable, and modern housing . All right. Well, thank you for that question. And thank you for the times that weve had a chance to discuss this and a visit in your district where the people seem to like you very much. You know, certainly were very concerned about any time people have to be displaced, which is why we have tenant protection vouchers. Not only do we provide those, but we provide Relocation Services to help those individuals to be able to adjust. In some cases, you know, they end up finding places that they like considerably better and dont even want to come back after the problem has been rectified, but we want to give them those choices. We also ive been working very vigorously with the housing choice vouchers to make them more palatable because there are many places where landlords wont accept them. Weve done some studies to find out why they wont accept them. Some of them are really quite interesting. For instance, in san diego, there was great resistance. Then the city guaranteed all the landlords that they would repair any damage that was done because the landlords were afraid these section 8 people would destroy their property. It cost the city almost nothing because people were not destroying their property. Theyre not going to destroy property. Theyve been waiting a long time to get this voucher. Theyre not going to do that. But sometimes you have to fight the perception, and that was done. But there are lots of other things that impact that. We look very carefully at how we can make sure those people are taken care of who are displaced. And peeking of that, you know, st. Louis county government is considering an ordinance that will prohibit a source of income discrimination as far as housing vouchers are concerned, which i think will address it at the local level. Can you give us some examples of Public Private partnerships that could work for a Community Like wellston, or have you given that any thought . Sure. I think there are many of them around the country. Purposebuilt communities. Like east lake, outside of atlanta, which as some people here probably know, was one of the worst places in terms of crime, in terms of poverty, schools performing at the lowest level in the state, and through the Public Private partnerships, building of mixedIncome Housing, bringing in grocery stores, places for work employment, they were able to convert that neighborhood completely. I went to one of the Charter Schools they put in, a high school. I was met by five students playing the harp. The things they had available were absolutely outstanding. Those schools achieve at highest levels in the state now, better than many of the private schools. So can it be done . Absolutely. It needs to be done in a holistic manner. Do we have the ability to do this in this country . We absolutely do. Well never get it done if we fight each other. But if we recognize the problem and begin to work with each other will the gentleman yield . Do i hear a commitment to wellston . We were getting to that, maam. The gentleman is committing to helping to do i will ask the question. Thank you. Go right ahead. Of course were going to be very interested in wellston and interested in helping there. And youre committed hud is committed to working with us in that community to make sure that right, and we want to continue to work with you on that. Absolutely. I appreciate it. My time is expired, and i yield back, madam chair. Thank you very much. The gentleman from wisconsin, mr. Duffy. Welcome, dr. Carson. I imagine as a i almost said former doctor, but as a doctor, you probably prefer to deal with the root causes of someones Health Problem as opposed to just the symptom of the problem. Absolutely. So youre somewhat getting bludgeoned by my colleagues about your rule on noncitizens and your rule that actually follows the law that was passed by congress. But i would note that it seems like in the last several month, we have 50,000 illegals coming across our border every month. When theres an open border and people continue to flood into our country, youre going to have more problems of illegal parents and maybe u. S. Citizen children. So maybe instead of bludgeoning you as the secretary of hud, maybe the congress should actually deal with securing the southern border, recognizing its a crisis and take responsibility ourselves, which i would encourage my friends across the aisle to put up the mirror and say, maybe we have to deal with this problem. Maybe its not dr. Carsons fault. It makes far too much sense. I would agree with that. So maybe in regard to your rule, youre basically saying, im going to follow the law and let u. S. Citizens take a priority in house that comes from hud. Is that right . Thats although, im open. Im not a hard nose. So if someone can tell me, you know, how to follow the law and still take care of their issue, im all ears. Im ready to hear it. So in the way you structured this rule to actually follow the law thats passed by congress, did you give some extra time for the congress to act and maybe change the law . Yeah, they can have a sixmonth deferral, and they can renew that twice. So thats 18 months, which should be plenty of time. If congress was actually interested in solving the problem. Again, i just want to put a period on the point that this problem is getting worse, and this is not compassion. I was just at the border. To look at whats happening to families and the journey and the sexual assaults and the indentured servitude of people who come up through cartels and have to work for the cartels once they get here, this is not compassion. What you experience is not compassion, but i applaud you because i believe as an american citizen, we should put americans first. Absolutely. If were not going to be a nation of laws, what happens if we say we can ignore this one, we dont like this one, but this one will do. Where does that lead in the long run . To nothing but chaos. To chaos. I want to pivot because you had mentioned maybe one of the pathways forward is to look at the cost of housing. Why has it become so unaffordable . Again, were looking at the symptom of increased costs. Why dont we look at the root cause . You mentioned, i think, you know, regulation and zoning that can drive up the cost of housing. Are there any examples where you have local governments that have actually tried to address their zoning rules and regulations and maybe allow for more development of multifamily structures that can drive down prices but also improve the stock . Yes, there are several cities who have engaged in that. They have come to recognize one very important thing. A lot of this regulatory these barriers are caused not by not in my backyardism. They have in their mind the model of 1960s and 70s where the government would come in and build these massive structures with no forethought, no holistic planning, leave, and they would deteriorate. Nobody wants that around them. But of course, we got to get the message out that the government doesnt do that anymore. Now we do Public Private partnerships. We do things that match the community. We want, you know, nurses and policemen and firemen and teachers to be able to live in the same community where they work. That doesnt decrease the value. I think that increases the value of the community. But with a little restructuring on zoning and rules, we can actually lower the cost of housing, right . Absolutely. I wanted to get to puerto rico. My time is almost up, but i know you have allowed for 1. 5 billion, 1. Billion in Disaster Relief to go to puerto rico. You have some strings attached, which i agree with. Any objections from the Puerto Ricans thus far in how you structured the money . None whatsoever. The governor and i have been working together. They have 1. 5 billion immediately available to them of which theyve used 250,000. 250 million or 250,000 . Mr. Scott is recognized for five minutes. Thank you very much, chair lady. Dr. Carson, over here. Good to have you back again. Thank you. Dr. Carson, are you familiar with own to option mortgage programs . In general, yes. In general. Well, the National Urban institute has recognized this as an Excellent Way to move people into homeownership. Have you reviewed this . How receptive are you to it . Im very receptive to the idea, recognizing that homeownership is the principle mechanism of wealth accumulation in this country. The average renter has a net worth of 5,000. Average homer, 200,000. Thats a 40fold increase. Were looking at multiple ways, including renter to ownership models to increase homeownership, particularly among some of the demographics that have fallen behind. Thats very good. And i encourage you to continue that as well. Now, let me go to a project you have mentioned some time ago as being one of your real projects that you can take some authorship in. Its called envision centers. Could you tell us about that . Ive spoken with some of the Public Housing authorities in my district down in georgia, like east Point Housing authority and many others. They seem to be very excited about this. Tell us a little more about that, will you . Yeah, well, the ideal comes from the bible. Proverbs hold on. It comes from the bible . Very good. Proverbs 29 18 says without a vision, the people perish. We said, well call these vision centers. Then we thought everybody would think they were getting centers. So we call them envision centers. Its a place where we can bring together all of the various services that are available to move people towards selfsufficiency. Instead of them going to 17 different places, they can get all of these services under one roof. We had the first demonstration of 17 cities and 13 of them have opened already. Some of them are doing extremely well. And, you know, this is just a model which i think is going to explode very soon, and were going to have a lot of these. Let me ask you this now. You mentioned when you made that announcement last april, i believe, you did say, as you just mentioned, 17 centers opened. But to our available knowledge that has come to us, only three, only three, not 13. So theres some discrepancy there. Are you aware of that . There may be, but there was actually an article this week that details the 13 that are open. Okay. Thats good. Envision centers. I hope you continue that. Folks in georgia and my district are very excited about it. So i look forward to working with you. Now, tell me and give me a very good update and let me know because the last time you were here, you and i had a very spirited conversation about your desi desire, or it wasnt your desire. As you said in your statement, somebody said that we ought to zero out the Community Development block grant program. After you and i talked, tell me, are we secure with that program, or do you and i have to go to battle once more on that . I dont think we ever have to go to battle regardless of whether we well, let me tell you, man, if you all move one inch to zero out the most Effective Program that cities and states and counties use to lift themselves up and be the cities and towns that they need, yes, we will go to battle. Im asking you, will we have to go to battle . Are you all still planning to zero out the budget for the cbdg program . Yes or no . Let me just say, i dont think we ever need to go to battle regardless of anything. Having said that, you know, as ive said before, the cdbg program has been helpful in many cases. I know my time is short, but have you moved away from zeroing out that budget, yes or no . Its not a yes or no question. Yes, it is. You just want to make it into a battle. It doesnt need to be. No, i want a yes or no answer. Are you going to do it or are you not . Apparently you all still have that on the table. The gentleman from ohio, mr. Stivers, is recognized for five minutes. Mr. Scott, your question was not answered. Mr. Stivers . Mr. Barr, the gentleman from kentucky, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Secretary, thanks for being back in front of our committee. I think youre doing a great job. I appreciate the good work that youre doing despite some of the criticism that youre receiving here today. I applaud you and this administration from breaking from the tired old past, the old ways of doing things where you just threw money at welfare programs and expected to cure poverty. Well, we know after 20 trillion since the war on poverty was declared in 1964, that didnt work. What is working is the trump economy. What is working is tax cuts and deregulation. We have the lowest unemployment in 50 years. We have the lowest unemployment among africanamericans. Hispanicamericans in 50 years, of all time. We see wages rising faster today than we did since before the great recession. Were seeing jobs being created, more people getting off of food stamps, more people moving into selfsufficiency. So Opportunity Zones, and these policies are producing growth and lifting people out of poverty and away from government dependency, and i applaud you for that. I want to thank you for taking time to come to kentucky and visiting st. James place and the hope center. The work the people are doing there, the nonprofit community, the faithbased groups working with people who are recovering from addiction. As we discussed on your visit, the Opioid Crisis has hit kentucky very hard. This issue has had a tragic impact on countless families across our state and across the country. According to the National Institute on drug abuse, every day more than 130 people in the United States are dying as a result of opioid overdoses, not just pills, but heroin and fentanyl as well. Last congress, as you know, we passed hr6 to help combat the Opioid Epidemic and included in this legislation was a bill that i introduced, the career act. When fully implemented by your agency, this legislation will create a Pilot Program to help individuals in their recovery from Substance Abuse disorder to secure stable, transitional housing and job training. I want to thank you and hud for taking the First Step Towards implementation of this program with the publication of a funding formula in march. That said, as i indicated, 130 deaths a day. Weve got to move these pilots forward as expeditiously as possible. Is it possible for hud to move forward with this pilot in this fiscal year . Yes, we are already moving forward with it, recognizing, as you said, this is a national tragedy. You know, we need to actually stop and look at how do we integrate the various agencies, federal, state, and local agencies in order to take care of this because it is a national problem. What people need to recognize about opioids is you can get hooked on them in a matter of a week or two. But to changes that occur in the brain frequently take 12 to 18 months to correct. So unless youre involved in an ongoing program, youre probably not going to be successful. Youre going to have relapses. And then that continues to drive the cost. We really need to have a much more comprehensive way that we look at it. The Career Program is going to help us do that. Thank you for your leadership and working with us to move that Program Forward as quickly as possible so that we can save lives and move folks out of recovery and into longterm jobs and an addictionfree life. Just yesterday, sir, hud rescinded its may 2017 carport letters that did not go through the proper administrative process to begin with and required alternative construction approval for all homes built that were built carport ready. I want to thank you for this because that policy proposed a costly and timeconsuming hurdle for the production of manufactured homes that negatively impacted kpuconsumer and forced many manufacturers to stop offering these homes. We talk about Affordable Housing overregulation from hud, in the past its been an impediment. But we still see that this manufactured housing consensus committee, this Advisory Committee has put forward a lot of recommendations like this, and hud still has not finalized more than 100 recommendations by the macc, some going back a decade. What can be done to change the internal processes at hud so that more of these recommendations are more promptly adopted . Weve beefed up the division working on manufactured housing recently so theyre not just sort of treading water. Theyre able to really make forward progress right now. But on the whole concept of Affordable Housing, manufactured housing is a critical part of that. About 10 of singlefamily Housing Units are manufactured Housing Units. The technology has increased dramatically so that better than other housing, in many cases. Thanks for your attention to that. I yield back. The gentleman from texas, mr. Green, whos also the chair for the subcommittee on oversight and investigations, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. I thank the Ranking Member as well. I thank the witness for appearing today. Id like to also thank ms. Wagner. She initially called to my attention this cdbgr program, the possibility of getting something done. She and i have worked together to try to perfect it to the extent it can be perfected. Im grateful to her. Im also grateful to the staff for working on this while she and i presented concepts. The staff actually worked together to make sure that our ideals were achieved to the extent they can be. So lets just talk for a moment about the time that you mentioned earlier with the cbdgr for Disaster Relief. For edification purposes for people who may be listening and not privy to information about this, this program is something that comes into being after weve had a disaster, and we currently reinvent the wheel each and every time. We dont always have the Institutional Knowledge available to us. People move on, and we sometimes have to not only reinvent the wheel, we have to reinvent some of the various components. It would be a good thing, in my opinion, to codify this program. Can you speak briefly to the timeline and how the timeline could be benefitted by codification . Yes. Theres no question that particularly early on after a disaster, some of the coordination that has to occur between Small Business, fema, and hud is duplicative. Some of the basic things that have to be done in order to get the grant money out is absolutely the same thing over and over again. Thats what i meant when i said, you know, if we can get those things codified, we could start out on second base on our way home rather than having to go completely around the whole thing. So what youre talking about makes 100 sense. And im 100 in agreement with it, and were going to be continuing to work with your group to make sure it gets done. Thank you for the announcement of support. Lets move to hr123, which is the fha additional credit Pilot Program. There are many people who are firsttime home buyers who have thin credit, but they do pay utilities, light bill, gas bill, water bill, phone bill, and they do this religiously. Theyre not late. But these things are not always scored. It can be done on an individual, casebycase basis. This is important not only to the person who may be able to purchase a home, but its also important to the rest of us because when that home is purchased, washers and dryers and curtains and other things are purchased that will impact the economy. Im hopeful that youll be able to support fha additional credit Pilot Program. Doesnt mean that other credit options that are scored will cease to be scored. This is not a substitute. Its in addition to. Would you comment, please, on this program and the possibility of your supporting it . Well, theres no question that some people come with very thin credit record, and theyre placed at a very significant disadvantage. I was recently looking at a study in which they looked at how a person paid their rent and how often, you know, they paid on time, how often they paid late, and they factor that into the credit rating. In most cases, it actually improved their credit score. It made it better. So were doing some more indepth looking at that. The commissioner, fha commissioner, and i have been talking about this alternative Credit Scores. Again, recognizing that it has to be done in a responsible way because you remember before the housing crisis, you know, people were going through some things that werent quite legitimate and put a lot of people into houses that they could not afford. As a result of that, they lost the house, they lost their credit, and they lost their future opportunities. We certainly dont want to get into that situation. So we will study it carefully, but im very hope to that alternative credit, and i appreciate your working on that. I thank you and look forward to our continued work. The gentleman from colorado, mr. Tipton, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. I appreciate the comments youve made so far today. Did want to bring up some local issues for us in colorado. Had the opportunity to be able to visit with some of our local housing authorities. In colorado, theyve been indicating that it seems hud has a one size fits all approach to its guidelines. One program ive heard to be particularly challenging for some of the smaller housing authorities is a Real Estate Assessment Center program. Theyve been suggesting that the inspection guidelines are stringent, difficult to meet, especially in physical inspection demand by the staff who need to be able to visit multiple scattered sites. The gao recently released a list of recommendations to be able to improve the physical Inspection Program process and oversight for the inspectors. Has your department reviewed some of these recommendations and considered including them into the execution of the program . Yes, and this is an area that has really captured my interest. I was so interested when i came in and found people passing react scores in places i wouldnt want a dog to live in and vice versa. It made absolutely no sense, and it was so inconsistent. So were doing a toptobottom analysis of the whole react scoring process, changing it. We have, you know, moved out some of the inspectors who had questionable character and brought in another host of inspectors, but were also looking at the way that we do the procurement of the inspectors before, you know, you would take the lowest bidder, always. Sometimes you get what you pay for. So obviously you have to be cognizant of that. Great. Thank you for that. And id like to be able to get your opinion just in regards to regulations. Do you think you have enough flexibility to be able to accommodate large and small operators as well as urban and rural areas . Well, we always like more flexibility. No question about that. It gives us a lot more ability to move quickly. Well manage what we have. I appreciate that. Thats really one of the challenges. We obviously have legislators from urban areas representing a rural area. Some of the distinct differences between being able to accommodate and being responsive, to be able to meet those needs, i think, is very important. Ive heard from some of my constituents that programs like the Housing Authority scoring system dont account for important considerations like individual market conditions. Have you given thought to making more geographically driven approaches to some of the regulations . Im always in favor of local control and not heavyhanded federal bureaucracy. So you know, if you have some specific suggestions about things we should be doing to make that even more available, im very happy to work with you on that. Thank you. And we will follow up with you on that. Were trying id like you to be able to have it locally driven as best we can to meet those needs at home. Well be happy to reach out to you and your office. Mr. Secretary, just one last question. One worry we have heard on the board in colorado is all areas of government were seeing federal dollars allocated for state distribution that do not make it out of the metropolitan areas into the rural areas. A loft of the grants, though, go to our states. Unfortunately, sometimes they stay in large metropolitan areas. Do you see a better way to make sure that were reaching all of the constituents and not discarding people that live in Rural America . Well, thank you for mentioning that. One of the reasons the Opportunity Zones were left up to the governors in each of the states is so they could target some of the rural areas. As a result of that, about 40 of the Opportunity Zones are in rural areas. I think thats going to be a tremendous help. Manufactured housing is also a big item in rural areas, twice as much as you find them in suburban and urban areas. So anything we can do to enhance the manufactured housing industry is going to be helpful for the housing situation in rural areas. Great. Thank you again for being here. Im out of time. I yield back. The gentleman from missouri, mr. Cleaver, w is recognized fo five minutes. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here, mr. Secretary. Im glad you brought up the Opportunity Zone. Thats kind of where i wanted to hang out for a few minutes. Ive gone through the last iteration from the treasury departments rulemaking period, and im assuming theres going to be some additional rules to come out. What theyre calling it so far is general rules. So my concern ive Read Everything that comes out on tunlt zone Opportunity Zones. What is huds role going to be . Treasury seems to be doing the rule making. And since theres no application process, what will how will hud fit into all this . Well, 35 million americans live in Opportunity Zones. 2. 4 million hud assisted individuals live in Opportunity Zones. The Household Income in Opportunity Zones is about 37 below the state levels. High School Graduation level, 22 dont graduate in Opportunity Zones versus 13 statewide. So what were talking about are the people that hud has a tendency to serve are in Opportunity Zones. Thats the reason that, you know, hud has been selected to chair the opportunity and revitalization consult, which consists of 16 federal agencies and other state agencies so they can focus their attention on the Opportunity Zones, remove the barriers quickly rather than having them go here and there. Obviously hud will be playing a significant role. But the regulatory responsibility will remain with treasury . Remember, all the regulations come from a variety of different agencies. Thats why we have 16 different ones. We will be able to coordinate, focus their attention, and remove the regulations quickly that are necessary to be removed. Some regulations are important. We recognize that. If an Opportunity Zone fund is presented with an investment to Capital Gains taxes or a place in this fund, does it come from hud . If youre talking about a tax issue, that would be treasury. So the actual monitoring of it, at the end of the year, if you dont apply, you actually deal with it during the tax season. So im just hoping that theres not a situation where, you know, Opportunity Funds are supposed to invest at least 90 of the money into the project, and lets Say Something goes awry. Its not going to be known until the end of the year. Is that right . And in terms of the financial consequences, perhaps. But we have an executive director who has an office so that we can get realtime feedback all the time so the program can be changed as we roll it out. Okay. Thats the part i was not familiar with. Will the director be in hud . The office is in hud. Scott turner is his name. Okay. Do you have any idea when the final regulations when they first came out, we had a two pager. So they were saying this is going to be the least regulated project. Then we got, two or three weeks ago, something pretty thick. So im assuming that the final o would be extremely thick or much thicker. Most of the regulations have been put forward already in the first two tranches. The last tranche should be relatively small. I think the rules are pretty well set out at this point. And a lot of money is coming in. A lot of activity is occurring. Yes, we have thank you, mr. Secretary. Thank you very much. The gentleman from texas, mr. Williams, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairman. Thank you, secretary carson, for being here today. In 2015, you wrote an oped titled experimenting with failed socialism again, about the previous administrations affirmatively furthering fair housing rule. Under your leadership, hud has committed to reexamining this rule. I want to thank you for being a strong capitalist, first of all, and for your service to this country. So can you elaborate on why a more socialist, heavyhanded government approach to fair housing would fail lowincome individuals and minorities . Yeah, well, you know, one of the reasons i took this job is because i was very concerned about what was happening, particularly to a lot of disadvantaged people in our society. And that we, collectively, were keeping people mired in poverty and dependency because we kept going down the same track. You know, whether republicans or democrats. So we want to find ways that we can liberate people from those kinds of things. All of our policies are really aimed at doing that. Affirmatively furthering fair housing, do i want to do that . Of course i want to do that. But there was a system in place blplace, an Assessment Tool that basically gave you statistics and created a big screen with purple dots and pink dots and green and yellow. If you move some of the pink ones here and the yellow ones here, im not sure that actually solves the problem. Why do you have segregation in housing . Its not because George Wallace is standing at the door blocking people. Its because people can only afford to live in certain places. So what we really need to do is ask ourself, how do we liberate people from that . Thats why weve been spending so much time and effort looking at housing choice vouchers. Thats why weve been looking at ways to decrease the regulatory cost, so that its possible to build places like east lake and purposebuilt communities. Thats why when we concentrate on Community Development, we concentrate not only on the houses but on the schools, on grocery stores, on transportation, on all the things that allow people to thrive and move up. And thats why we try to create programs that enable people to become selfsufficient. Thats why we provide the services and the information about the services, because it doesnt do good to have Services People dont know about. Opportunities are a good thing. Theres been a lot of talk about the proposed rule that would prevent noncitizens from receiving taxpayer funded federal Housing Assistance. Weve talked already about that today. On may 15th, you received a letter from 12 democrats that stated the following, and i quote, the administrations approach to this proposed rule making runs counter to the goals of providing Housing Assistance to the most vulnerable americans. I personally totally disagree with that. I define vulnerable americans as a legal citizen who is not receiving any benefits at the cost of someone who is in the country illegally. So secretary carson, because of your knowledge of the wait list for these affected programs, i want you to to give you the opportunity to justify this move of putting the needs of american citizens first. Well, you know, it seems only logical that taxpaying american citizens should be taken care of first. Its just like when you get on an airplane and they make the announcement, in case of an emergency, oxygen masks will drop down, put yours on first and then help your neighbor. Its the same concept. Its not that were cruel and mean hearted. Its that we are logical. This is common sense. You take care of your own first. Its also common sense that you ask yourself, why are you having all of these kinds of problems . The answer to that is because we wont deal with the underlying problem. Until were willing, you know, collectively, both democrats and republicans, to sit down and solve the problem, were going to continue to have these problems crop up continually. Why would we be fighting the symptoms when we can get to the root cause of the problem . Real quick. Have Illegal Immigrants been able to exploit the whole of huds regulations, and are you confident youll be able to fix this issue . I think that we can fix this. We now have the save system through dhs, which allows us to identify people quickly. This was not the case when this rule was put in place. Thanks for your testimony. The gentleman from california, mr. Vargas, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you very much, madam chair. Thank you, doctor, for being here. I want to continue on the questioning of my friend from texas. One of the things that wasnt mentioned here, and im a little surprised you havent mentioned it, is if a person is undocumented in a household, the aid is prorated. So the person whos undocumented actually doesnt get any subsidy. Its the child. Its the american citizen child that is, in fact, helped. Thats one of the things that wasnt mentioned here. I thought it would have been up to now. Because again, the law as it currently stands and the rules say this, that those children that are american citizens, theyre helped by americans, even though i would go and extend it further as a christian. I dont make the difference between someone who is undocumented or not. But the rules as they are today say we only take care of the child. Thats not been brought up in all of this conversation. It should have been. My understanding, thats the rule today. Sir, am i incorrect about that . Youre not incorrect. And also, interestingly enough, prorating, how do you prorate a roof over somebodys head . By the number of people who are in there, youre taking care of the child and you do, in fact, prorate it against anyone whos ineligible because of their legal status or some other reason. But the child is an american citizen, and those 55,000 children are going to be somehow thrown out into the street or Something Else. In fact, your agency itself, you guys determined, your analysts, that it was going to be more expensive to the federal government if this rule goes forward. Thats not our determination. My understanding, thats your determination. It is our determination. I thank you for making that point because the reason it would be more expensive is because the people who are on the waiting list are even more needy than the ones who are in there. So yes, we do need to take care but as i mentioned before, i would love to be able to take care of everybody, but we have to do this within the framework of the law. And if people dont like the law, they should change it. Well, we do have a rule, actually, and it takes care of it today. I have to say, you did quote and i appreciate you quoted proverbs 18. I believe theres a second part to that. 29 18. I believe the second part says Something Like, where there is no vision, people perish, but happy is the man who follows the law for he is joyful. Something like that. Theres also proverbs 7, i believe. It goes Something Like, the righteous care about the justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern. I dont believe youre wicked in any way. In fact, i think youre trying to figure out how to propose something to push reform. Trying very hard. And i dont believe that this rule could have come from you. I was there in 2013 when you spoke at the National Prayer breakfast. I go every thursday to the prayer breakfast. I was the national cochair for one year. I dont think youre mean spirited at all. I disagree with some of your policies. But i have to say, taking these 55,000 children and putting them on the street, i do think is mean spirited. I dont think its your nature, but i hope you review that. Its not my nature to want to put anybody out on the street, and thats why we provided the 18month period. I hope and pray that you rethink that. Again, i dont agree with all your policies, but i certainly challenge your view of humanity and that youve been a good person trying to do the right thing. I hope you review that. I do want to ask about Daca Recipients also. My understanding has been that Daca Recipients have been ineligible for fha loans. In fact, i want to quote you. I asked around after i read the story. That is that Daca Recipients were being denied fha loans but hid instructions. No one was aware of any changes that have been made to the policy whatsoever. Im sure we have plenty of Daca Recipients who have fha loans. Are you familiar with any changes . Have you made any changes . No, its the same policy thats been in place since 2003, which was reaffirmed in 2015 by the previous administration. And we have not made any changes to that whatsoever. Thank you. I hope that that becomes clear out there in the community. Again, i thank you for being here. We disagree on some issues, but i appreciate your openness also towards comprehensive immigration reform. Thank you for being able to disagree without being disagreeable. Thank you. The gentleman from arkansas, mr. Hill, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chair waters. Mr. Secretary, glad to have you back before the committee. Thank you. Very pleased you made your second trip back to the second Congressional District in arkansas. We appreciate you coming to our state. Fair lending and fair housing conference. I heard a lot of positive remarks about your comments. And we want to have you back as we explore the Opportunity Zones. We had senator scott down in the district. Whats interesting is one of the Opportunity Zones also abuts one of our historically black colleges and universities. To me, thats really an interesting opportunity because not only does the president ask you to work on the Opportunity Zone issue, hes also empowered the hpcu executive order to try to maximize all federal resources to enhance the position of our historically black colleges and universities. So this could be a really interesting opportunity. When you were in little rock two years ago, you visited with our house, which is a housing homeless, holistic approach. We dont separate the moral from the economic there, to paraphrase arthur brooks. Its a holistic approach to education and health care and childcare as well as getting people lifted up and back to productive life. And they were very interested in potentially being an envision Center Partner to a local Public Housing authority. Will there be another cohort where Public Housing authorities can offer proposals for partnership . Yes. You know, we have a real operator in place now when it comes to spreading those programs. So the initial cohort was really to gain some information on how to do this and make it work effectively. So yes, that will be happening. Good. Another area ive also listened to in my district relates to our local Public Housing authorities and their certification of landowners for use in section 8 vouchers. One of my city koung sill members, doris wright, and i toured an apartment complex that while its also got a Good Mentorship Program with a local church that helps with childcare and mentoring the residents there, the conditions are just deplorable, meaning the physical conditions. Can you follow up maybe in writing with what the standards are that a city council, local city council should hold the local Public Housing the local Public Housing authority to in certifying that a landowner is qualified for receiving a section 8 voucher . I think we can get that information to you. No question about it, but you know, we do trust to some degree the landowners to be, you know, reasonable people and have some concern for the people, and we do have some degree of oversight, but there are legal remedies for people who abuse the tenants. Yeah, this was a pretty rough and im not passing judgment either. Im not a lawyer. Im not a hud inspector, but when you do a cruise through this particular complex and look at some of the conditions of the units, one might question whether or not they are eligible for section 8 money. Weve had a lot of talk about overcrowding today and issues and we passed legislation here in the congress. I was shocked when i first came to the congress that new york, a big city with a big demand for Public Housing i think had a waiting list in Something Like 500,000 units, and yet, there were tens of thousands of units that people were occupying that were making too much money to be qualified to be in Public Housing, and so congress in the last couple of years reacted, i think President Trump signed that into the law. Are we doing a better job making sure if youre earning too much money that you have opportunities elsewhere to live so that we can make room for some of these long waiting lists . Were trying to create an environment where people feel freer to exit, you know, the supportive housing, and, you know, its sort of a catch 22 because we have also gotten into a situation where when people begin to climb the ladder, we pull the ladder out from underneath them, and then everybody else is watching that and theyre saying im not climbing that ladder. So we have to be a little careful about the way that we do that. Allowing people to exit in a way that they will be able to continue climbing that ladder and that they feel comfortable going out there, and those are the kind of programs that we have to be creating. Thank you, mr. Secretary. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman from ohio, whos also the chair, the subcommittee on diversity and inclusion. Thank you. I have several questions and because of our fiveminute time period, im going to try to get through them at rapid speed. As you know you were here before, and im going to ask you the same questions that ive asked every one of your colleagues and i am very hopeful that you can give me a yes on this. Are you familiar with om wee and what it is . With who . Om way. Amway . Omway, come on mr. Secretary i asked you this when you were here last year and you asked me to be nice to you, and you turned to your staff, omwe, and you have an omwe director, and we wrote you a letter about it. Om we, office of minority women and inclusion. Do you have an omwi and inclusion . Do you have a director . Do you work with the omwi, not amway. Do you know who that person is . Do you know who that person is . I cannot give you the name. Okay. Would you do me a favor. Would you find out and would you send me a note back so we dont ever have to repeat this again . We can send you a note on that. Okay. Thank you. Ive had a lot of individuals from my district, a group of people here in the audience who have questions about fss. Are you familiar with that program . Family selfsufficiency . Yes. Yes. So one of the questions is what one question is what measures are instituted to ensure Public Housing residents have fair and equal access to fss . Well, anybody who comes and applies for or asks for it, unless theres any particular reason to deny it. The problem is not so much that people are denied access to it as that we dont have enough people asking for it. Okay. So the next part i represent columbus, ohio, and i am very proud of my Public Housing authority, and i meet with them on a regular basis as you know ive spent more than 20 some years working in Public Housing and relocation. One of the things that my president and ceo asked me to ask you about is increased funding for fss to allow them to grow the program to serve more families, both in Public Housing and in section 8. It is my understanding that much of the money goes for staffing versus service, so id like to ask you if you would look into that to see what we could do with that program, and i can also tell you and madame chairwoman id like to enter this document into the records. It is about my district, all politics are local. We have an outstanding fss program where weve had successful graduates. Weve had in individual financial counseling some 116 people. Without objection the item is entered into the record. Thank you. The other question is now that youve had more time to think object cdbg, my colleague congressman scott asked you about those funds. Have you had more time to think that you would certainly not cut those funds, or is that something you want us to get an answer from after you consult with your team . I have an answer for it, wasnt given an opportunity to finish it. First of all, let me just say with columbus, tremendous job with transitional housing. Thank you. One of the best in the country. As far as cdbg as i was saying, it has done a lot of good things. The problem is the formula is sometimes inappropriate. For instance, it says, you know, to give this money to this group if the houses were built before 1940. Well, a lot of those houses are like Million Dollar mansions. I hate to interrupt you. My time is running out. I have just one more question immaterial to ask. The Program Needs to be modified. Thank you. Also, i was talking with some friends and colleagues, as we look at the number of teens couch surfing, the number of single momsme, would you be interested in having a dialogue with Community Leaders . Ive talked to people who run programs like susan tailors program, like Public Housing and they feel like we should do more Creative Things in helping our young folks in the housing areas, which helps them with their entire lifestyle. Would you be interested in doing Something Like that . Were very interested in that. Had an opportunity to do some of that with senator collin in maine recently. Its an area that we need attention and jean lampau is the person who headsup the office. Thank you. Gentleman from tennessee is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chairman and thank you mr. Secretary for coming today. Had a number of members, thank you for coming to their district. I also thank you for coming to memphis and to west tennessee last year. Absolutely. Ive met with constituents who have an interest in strengthening the low Income Housing tax credit. And in the last congress, i think that there was a bill the Affordable Housing credit, the tax credit, in my opinion is a vital source for Affordable Housing. Youve stated in the past that hud has taken steps to streamline prompjects that utile this particular tax credit. Can you expand on that . Well, the low Income Housing tax credit is probably responsible for the largest number of new Affordable Housing in the country, so obviously were interested in it. Traditionally it has about an 8 billion budget that you all that has been providing to treasury for that program. Utilizing that along with the rad program, along with the moneys that will be coming through Opportunity Zones provide us with an unprecedented opportunity not only to create Affordable Housing, but really to expand the Economic Opportunities and business opportuniti opportunities, which then have a domino effect in terms of creating other Economic Activity around them. Thank you mr. Secretary. Last congress when the Affordable Housing credit improvement act was introduced, it seemed to have pretty good bipartisan support. One of the provisions in the bill would have created a 4 credit rate, permanent rate and further credit expansion. What are your thoughts on a permanent 4 credit rate . For individuals or for communities . For both. Well, obviously we want to expand credit in a responsible way as much as we possibly can. Being cognizant of the fact that when we do it inappropriately we actually arent doing people any favors. Were actually making their lives more difficult when that happens. So any ideals that you have for appropriate expansion for credit, we are always going to be in the market for doing that. Our fha commissioner Bryant Montgomery is very open to that concept as well. Thank you, mr. Secretary. There have been a number of questions today asked about Community Development block grants. And in my district and in memphis and west tennessee these block grants have been in the past theyve been used successfully. Given that these the cdbg program was put into place during the ford administration, we could probably look at modernizing the program to some extent. What are your thoughts about modernizing cdbg to better incentivize, if you will, and streamlining permitting processes and other policies that may create barriers to Development Projects . Sure, there are about 1210 communities now that benefit from the cbdg program, and theyre the only ones. I think it really should be a much more competitive program. I think there are a lot of things that could be done so that we really target the low and moderate income people the way it was supposed to be done. Its been, you know, just abused quite frankly. I would be very open to modernizing it, and working with congress to get that done. If i could, as it relates to the funding portion and whats known as formula b, which is in part based on data from pre1940 housing, i know that theres some communities that benefit from formula b. Theres some that obviously are harmed by it. Would hud look at looking at formula b to maybe modernizing it or better utilizing it for other communities to tap into that formula . Absolutely, and i think a lot of other communities would be absolutely delighted, and you know, its not that im against, you know, the concept of why it was created. Were more against what it has become. Thank you, mr. Secretary. Thank you madame chairman. I yield back my time. The gentlewoman from michigan, ms. Talib is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman. Thank you secretary carson for coming before this committee. Im not sure if you remember the first time we met, but it was in the gymnasium of southwestern high school, our alma mater. I was excited that you took time to come and speak to the young people there. You walked the same hallways i did that those very young people did. You grew up in the same challenged neighborhoods. Secretary carson, instead of helping the very community you grew up in, youve decided to dial back on protections and resources that help those in knees that stop housing diskrim naug nation. This is happening while measures are being put in place to criminalize and surveil those that are our very residents that we serve. Is secretary carson i commend hud in recently suing facebook for facial Recognition Technology. When asked about this lawsuit, you stated using a computer to limit a persons Housing Choices can be just as discriminatory as slamming a door in someones face. Yes or no, did you benefit from section 8 housing . Did i what . Benefit from section 8 housing . No, i did not. You didnt, okay, i do have quotes from the past i think when you were running for president of the United States that you did claim that you did receive some sort of voucher for section 8 housing. I never claimed that. Other people claimed it, not me. I understand, apologize. Would you be okay with facial Recognition Technology being used by Law Enforcement and other agencies in the neighborhoods that you grew up in, including Public Housing . I think, you know, we obviously have to adjust with the technology as it is rapidly advancing. It can be abused and of course thats one of our jobs to make sure it is not. Secretary carson, are you aware of project green light in detroit . Where the mayor is putting up the lights to decrease the crime. It enables police to identify and track residents captured on hundreds of private and public cameras. The same surveillance has since expanded to include lower Income Housing. Are you aware that detroit has in commission a receives funding from hud is moving towards using project green lights facial technology for Public Housing . I think the project has done some great good. The mayor has told me its solved a lot of the crime problems and brought it down. It doesnt mean that we dont have to be very careful about how that technology is used in the future. So you dont oppose the use of it . I oppose the inappropriate use of it. Okay. Currently my colleague and i are introducing a bill that bans the use of realtime facial Recognition Technology in federal funded housing, and i hope that maybe your department can take a look at it and maybe help us move that forward so there is no abuse, intentional discrimination towards those of color. Secretary carson, the neighborhood that you grew up and the one that really believed in you and i before anyone else did is very much hurting because theyve been feeling left behind. I believe 71 of them, especially in the state of michigan, spend more than half of their income on housing costs and utilities. The conditions in hud housing is getting worse with continued decrease in funding while backlogs for Affordable Housing grows. That day at southwestern high school, do you remember what you told us . I dont remember, no. You said something pretty spectacular, and it was very inspiring. You said that no matter be if you are poor you can succeed. This seems very hard for our people, secretary carson today because the same programs that helped you and i are being scaled back. It is your turn to give back, for you to remember where you came from and use your experience growing up poor in detroit. Lastly, you keep saying we are a nation of laws. I hope secretary carson, that you and my colleagues who agreed with you in that statement would also apply that to the president of the United States. Madame chairman, i ask for this article titled controversial summers program coming to detroit Public Housing to be submitted for the record, and i yield the rest of my time. Thank you, secretary. Without objection such as you order. The gentleman from new york mr. Zeldin is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair and thank you mr. Secretary for your service, past, present, and future to our country. First, before i ask a question, i just want to point out the reason why you wouldnt recognize the term omwi and hud is that hud doesnt have omwi . Dodd frank doesnt require omwi. You have the office of small disadvantaged business utilization, which seeks to accomplish many of the same goals but pretty unfair question to ask you who the director is of an entity that obviously doesnt exist within hud, so my apologies on behalf of thank you for clarifying that. My colleague. In my district i talk to potential homeowners and the realtors and lenders who serve them, and one thing hear over and over again is how otherwise credit worthy hardworking families cant get into a new home because they arent liquid enough to make that big down payment, even though they can otherwise afford to pay a mortgage. That is why the fha loan is so essential to long island families looking to purchase a new home that will help them build their own version of the American Dream and most importantly help them stay on long island. These are middle class people with good jobs and good Credit Scores but maybe they arent liquid enough to put up a large down payment in a region with some of the highest real estate values in the nation. Over the past several years weve seen traditional lenders like banks which are subject to stringent Capital Requirements and are regulated flee fha lending as a result of the use of the false claims act to sue them for allegedly defective loans. The false claims act was passed by the Lincoln Administration to prevent horse theft and other fraud during the civil war but is being exploited by frivolous lawyers. Overzealous enforcement of the law encouraging bad behavior instead of raeining it in. A misplaced comma should not be grounds for a massive lawsuit against an honest lender helping someone get an fha loan. For many reasons these lawsuits or just the threat of these lawsuits have negative ramifications for fha and are hurting access to affordabilile housing in my district and nationwide. What are you doing to bring traditional lenders back to this Important Program . Thank you for that question and thank you for the work youre doing in your district in new york, and ive enjoyed our visits in the past. You know, weve been working very closely with the office of the attorney general and with the Justice Department because we recognize that they also have issues and they want to make sure that people dont get away with things, but the problem is that its been much too difficult to sort out of t, you, whats a defect and what is not. So you know, we have, you know, reexamined the defect taxonmy and finding ways that we can clarify for everybody easily and bring this into the digital realm so that its not just somebody sitting behind a desk. It makes it much easier if we use technology, i. T. , to just get rid of a lot of immaterial mistakes and not have them count toward any untoward action for that person. Thank you for your work on this issue t, very important fo my district. I know that you and your team are laser focused on it, which really is something that my constituents are grateful for. Something thats very personal to us, the issue of veterans homelessness and i want to thank you for your personal efforts on this particular issue. Its a huge challenge, and any veteran who raises their hand willing to lay down their life in defenses of our freedoms and liberties should have food on their table, a roof over their head, shoes on their feet and anything that you can do and really working with this community, working with the chairwoman, the Ranking Member and working with you as well, if we can pursue any victories, any new victories during this congress to help get our veterans, just like we really want to get every american off of the streets. The one that certainly is most personal is when that person goes, deploys in combat ask they come home and theyre on the street, which is outrageous. I thank you for your work on the veterans homelessness issue. I appreciate that hud and the doj are working together because regulatory clarity on the issue that we just discussed is essential here so we can make sure bad government policy isnt putting up roadblocks to hardworking American Families who are pursuing the dream of home ownership. And i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman from utah mr. Mcadams is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair. Secretary carson, thank you for being here. Would you generally agree that policymakers make better policy decisions when they consider all data and facts before making a decision . Yes. And would you also agree its important for policymakers to be transparent and hear from interested persons that may be affected by a particular policy. Im happy to hear that. Its even in huds policy statement, 24 cfr section 10. 1. Its great to hear these answers and i agree. In my home state of utah housing prices continue to climb dramatically as in many places around the country. Our area is facing a shortage of thousands of homes. The median sales price for a new home in Salt Lake County in 2018 was up 61 from the median price in 2010. Three other wasatch front counties have had similar rates of increase. Since 2010 new households in utah have outnumbered new Housing Units. Thats new households created have outnumbered new Housing Units by over 40,000, which explains a lot the Cost Increases of housing. Because of this huds mission of supporting affording act and development is vitally important to me and my constituents. I want to ask you about a recent hud action that may make it harder for low and moderate income individuals to be able to purchase a home. Mr. Secretary, last month fha issued a mortgage letter, a mortgage letter claiming to clarify documentation requirements for loans originated that have down payment assistance from governmental entities. That mortgage e letter issued new requirements for a number of entities, many of whom had been originating mor gatgages for ye and suddenly were no longer able to do so. The rul of this is low and moderate income individuals may no longer be able to purchase a home no longer having access to some of these programs. I understand that this policy is currently under litigation. I respect that you probably cant discuss the details, but i want to talk about the process, which i think you can discuss. Mr. Secretary, what formal process and Public Comment period did hud or fha undertake before fha issued this mortgagee letter . Im not aware of a public process. That is absolutely correct. There was no public process. Mr. Secretary hud previously announced it would address governmental down payment assistance programs through a rule making in the 2018 spring and fall regulatory agendas. What changed at hud to warrant a decision not to advance rule making and instead to just issue this guidance through a mortg e mortgagee letter . I think it was the feeling of those involved that it was creating damage to people, and they wanted them to understand what the parameters of being able to offer this kind of assistance were and that it should be done within ones own jur jurisdiction, that it tended to metastasize outside ones jurisdiction is when the problems occur. I would go back it ohuds policy statement that policymakers make better decisions when they consider all data and facts before making a decision and that it would be important to include policymakers and other interested persons before adopting a particular policy, and thats why i think i was disappointed, especially with the negative impacts. Understanding that there may be rational reasons for looking at this, but the negative impacts of proceeding with the mortgagee letter. Your point is well taken. The mortgagee would affect triang do you have any evidence these dpa loans are performing worse than other dpa loans . Im not familiar with the data that was used. I think thats because there is no data. Hud does not collect taxpayer i. D. S that differentiate between a tribal hfa and a nontribal hfa. I appreciate the role you must play in protecting taxpayers and the mmif, but if you do not currently collect the appropriate data to judge the success of a dpa program, then perhaps we should collect that data before moving forward with this policy. I yield back. I agree with you actually. Thank you. Thank you. I hope if you do agree, i hope that maybe we can revisit this and look at engaging the public in a process before continuing. Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman from ohio, mr. Gonzalez is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair, thank you dr. Carson for being here and for your attention and for all your service to the country. I want to start by first commending you for taking on facebook and uncovering what i think most americans if they knew the details of would be sickened by. Could you just briefly sort of describe what you found and kind of give an update as to the status of the investigation . Well, as you know, its in federal court now, so i cant do too much, but i will say in general theyre able to collect enormous amounts of information about people. People have no idea that its being collected. The real problem is when you use that information to discriminate against people, to either deny information to them or to send information only to selected groups of people based on the various Demographic Data that you collect, and this is just going to become a progressive problem if we dont nip it in the bud. So i see this as something thats going to be very important in our society. Absolutely. Would it be fair to say that what you found was essentially that if youre somebody lets say youre a realtor, and you want to target ads on facebook, that you could essentially completely lock out individuals based on race, gender, zip code, basically anything you want using the data and tools that facebook provides . Correct. I would consider that quite frank ri some of the most aggressive red lining this country has ever seen. Its red lining in the digital age. Technical red lining. Technical red lining in the digital age, and i again want to commend you for your work in cracking down on this abusive practice. Thank you. You sort of alluded to in your First Response that this problems going to become more profound. I agree with you as more of our lives move to the digital realm. Could you talk a little bit about any discussions that youve had internally or investigations that youre undertaking or thinking of undertaking with respect to twitter and google and sort of additional platform security . Well, weve been in contact with them, and, you know, asked for certain information from them, and you know, reserved the right to pursue it further depending on what the investigations show. Great, and ill look forward to following that. Again, i think its incredibly important. You know, there was a point when we thought that these platforms were essentially going to be liberation technologies, and it wasnt that long ago. I think what weve seen over time is that in the wrong hands, bad actors can use them for very nefarious methods. Absolutely. And again, i commend you for it. Last question and ill just kind of turn it over to you, is there anything that you want to share with the committee that you havent quite had a chance to with respect to the ongoing work at hud . Yeah. You know, i share from my heart, you know, my concern about our country. You know, we have a very strong country, and the only people who can bring us down are ourselves. If we continue to allow ourselves to be made into enemies instead of being able to use our collective abilities and talents to focus on the problems that we have and to solve those problems, these are things that we are capable of doing. This is america. Its a great nation, and, you know, you look back at the early part of our country, a lot of people were critical of us. They said youve got the fords and the kelloggs and the rockefellers and the vanderbilts and all this money. Then youve got all the poor people. You cant have a goftd livernmee that. What they didnt realize that those people i named in our country, instead of just being greedy and passing money down from one generation to the next, what they did is built a transcontinental railroad, and the seaports and the textile mills and the factories that allowed us to have the most dynamic middle class the world has ever known. They didnt stop there. They built schools and universities and libraries and museums and things that really helped to create the American Dream, and its about providing opportunities for our fellow citizens because our most Precious Resource are our people, and if we develop our people, we will be successful. Thank you, and i yield back. The gentlewoman from new york ms. Okcasiocortez is recogniz for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman, and thank you secretary carson for joining us today. Secretary carson, in december 2017 you delivered a keynote at the Manhattan Institute where you stated, quote, the war on poverty sometimes conflicted with the war on drugs, which often dealt harshly with nonviolent offenders taking men away from their families and disproportionately affecting minority communities. Are these your words . Yes. Do you acknowledge that the war on drugs disproportionately impacted black communities and communities of color despaite marijuana and other drug use levels being comparable to White Communities . Traditionally that has been the case. And i see here are you alzheimalso aware when a formerly incarcerated person is homeless, theres a 60 chance they will be rearrested, but if that same person has access to housing the percentage drops to 29 . Housing is one of the factors that is beneficial in preventing recidivism. Im concerned here that the war on drugs has not been solely limited to incarceration and that the the negative impact of the war on drugs has not been limited to incarceration but also we had legislated rippling effects that also seems to have been codified in our housing system. Are you aware of huds one strike rule which evicts tenants for a single incident of criminal activity no matter how minor . There is the ability of local jurisdictions to alter that rule. Mmhmm. But federally this provision still persists, correct . As far as i know its still intact. Mmhmm. And so a person could be stop and frisked and be found in possession of a small amount of marijuana and then be evicted or have their entire family evicted from Public Housing . That is a possibility. Are you aware that owners in Public Housing authorities can subject tenants to tests for alcohol and drugs . They can require that, yes. Mmhmm. And i see here that we also have no fault policies where an entire family can be evicted for the criminal activity of a guest of the household, even without the knowledge of anyone in that household. Are you aware of that provision as well . The use of such activity is extremely limited, if ever used. Mmhmm, but these are still codified in federal law, correct . Is it on the federal books . As far as i know its been on the books for many, many years. Do you support reversing some of these provisions . Do i which provisions . Say the no fault policy . I can talk about that on individual cases if you have an example that you want to talk about. Well, id say would you support being able to move some of these policies over to a more holistic review . You yourself asked for a case by Case Consideration. Should that case by Case Consideration be codified in federal law instead of having blanket one strike or no fault policies . Im always in favor of more flexibility. Well, im happy to hear that, secretary carson. Id also like to highlight theres been much talk about the issue with nycha and Public Housing and its horrifying the conditions that are happening in nycha. Its horrifying that people are living through winter without heat opening their ovens to try to make sure that theyre able to sleep through the night. But i think its important to notice that this is not about throwing more money to the problem. This is about throwing the money at the problem. Nycha and Public Housing across the country has been starved by members of congress for over 15 years, and that deficit has built up for many, many years, which has led to in new york city alone a 32 billion price tag to make sure that we get people basic heat, hot water and so on, and i dont think that, you know, no matter what policy changes we make you cant take food away from a child and then not understand why they cant or dont eat, and i think that thats exactly whats happening with our Public Housing program. Chairwoman, i would like to seek unanimous consent to submit to the record a New York Times article on what it would take to fix new yorks Public Housing. Without objection such as ordered. Thank you very much, and id also like to make of note that the provisions that we wanted to reverse including one strike and no fault policies are being introduced in our bill on fair chance at housing act. Thank you very much. The gentleman from tennessee, mr. Rose is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman waters and thank you secretary carson for being with us today and for your frank testimony today. I cant help but acknowledge your great personal life story as i began today and know that you came up under very tough circumstances and through the leadership of folks like your mother you were able to overcome those. Im wondering, though, as youve now had a couple of years in Government Service and as secretary of housing and urban development, do you find the challenges in the serving in this way to be tougher than those that you experienced as a neurosurgeon very successfully tackling many problems . Well, i can tell you as a neurosurgeon, the operating room was a haven. You could go in there and get away from all the problems of the world, but, you know, its one of the great things about medicine is you were able to intervene in peoples lives and give them a second chance. And you know, despite the difficulties of this job and the attacks and criticism, there is an opportunity to change peoples lives, to change the trajectory of our nation, to change the way that we do things. To go from just taking care of people to actually setting people on a trajectory towards success. You talked earlier about the situation where due to planned improvements in Public Housing sometimes people are displaced and how very often they find that after theyve moved on, they find a better a better solution. I wonder if theres any lessons that you might have learned or the department may have learned from seeing that that might help guide us toward helping people move beyond Public Housing. . Well, the key thing that ive seen is when we develop communities in a holistic way, it almost doesnt matter where they are, you know. You provide the sustenance for what people need in order to develop. One of the things i learned from the hud dash program, this is for veterans and veteran homelessness, hud provides the housing, the v. A. Provides the wrap around services. It doesnt work when we just give them housing. It doesnt work when we just give them wrap around services. But when we put both together, we have a tremendous impact in terms of getting those veterans back to being selfsufficient again. Thats the same policy that we want to use today for the people who are being assisted in housing. In tennessee we have a very successful Housing Finance agency, the Tennessee Development housing agency, thda. Because thda is highly integrated into local communities and have staff who understand both National Programs and staterun programs, they are able to have Great Success in prudently and affordably and Affordable Housing folks in the Fifth District in tennessee in general. They do not utilize a one size fits all approach. Instead they tailor their work best help the individual constituent. I tend to think that local problems often require local solutions. In fact, they usually do. The housing issues in memphis are not the same as the ones in nashville, just like the issues in new york city are not the same as for my constituents in the sixth district of tennessee. For example, manufactured housing may not make sense in manhattan, but they are significant or an integral part of Rural Housing in tennessee. How can we best leverage these state finance agencies in trying to address the Affordable Housing shortage in our country . Well, i think we just have to keep an open mind. As you said, recognizing that the needs are going to be different in every different district. We also need to concentrate on modernizing our building te techniques and june 1 through 5 there will actually be a showcase of new housing techniques on the national mall. I invite all of you to come to it, 3d printed housing, manufactured housing, all kinds of new techniques and materials, some of which cost considerably less than what were doing now. Integrating those kinds of things into our housing policy i think is going to be something that will help us out tremendously. Do you share my view that local Problems Require Local Solutions and as a country we need to take responsibility at the community and local level rather than simply solving every problem by spending more and more federal dollars . I not only share it, but i enthusiastically endorse it. It has to be all of us working together, not pointing fingers at each other, but working together. Thank you, and i yield back. Thank you. The gentlewoman from north carolina, ms. Adams is recognized for five minutes. Thank you madame chair, and thank you secretary carson for being here today. Im over here. Let he weve had some discussion today about the choice vouchers and many Public Housing agencies have wait list s and my district in charlotte, north carolina, mecklenburg, weve got 30,000 people on the waiting list for a housing choice voucher. That includes women and children and families, people with disabilities, seniors, young people, and the list goes on. Just if you can just give me a yes or no to this, i have a couple of other questions. Do you believe that the federal government is dedicating enough funding and resources to ensure that individuals who are most in need of housing can access an affordable place to live . Would i love to be able to give a lot more . Of course. Okay, thank you. So given the severe shortage of Public Housing and federal assistance, why did the budget request for fy 2020 zero paralysis like cdbg, Public Housing capital fund home, and you only asked for 8. 7 billion less than 2019 . Because we have to make tough choices in a budget because we have a 22 billion deficit debt, and we have children and grandchildren and people who will be coming after that who will be responsible for that. So real compassion includes them as well. Okay. So is there any when we talk about the housing choice vouchers, was there any reason that you didnt ask for more funding for that . For exactly the same reason. Okay would i love to have enough for everybody to have one . Thatd be great. Okay. Let me ask this question in terms of the vouchers. We have in 2016 we had 127 people, 127 people in charlotte that received a voucher. 45 of those expired, so that means that individuals who were searching for housing that were doing that for 120 days, because i understand its four months, and so theyre going to have to give them back. Theyve been turned away because landlords and Property Managers dont want to rent to folks with section 8 vouchers, and so i think that there may be some income source discrimination. I think thats unfair, and thats you know, its just plain and simple that thats unfair. So given this data, do you believe that we need a federal law prohibiting this income discrimination . I think we certainly need to be looking at what are the impediments for people to accept those vouchers, and thats exactly what were doing right now. If we go through that process and its still a problem, maybe a federal law may be necessary. Okay. What about in terms of the folks who are having to give them back . Is there a way to extend the time frame . I mean, four months, obviously, is not enough in some cases. There are hardship exemptions in existence, which can be utilized in those situations. Okay. Since we ive got a few more minutes. Since youve rolled back the affirmatively furthering fair housing rule, what specific actions is hud currently taking it ensure its guarantees are fulfilling their fair housing obligations to tackle segregation and housing discrimination . Well, when i took office, there were 602 discriminatory actions. Were down to about 100 now. Weve gone through all of those, and in addition to taking care of the new ones that have come in, we get about 8,000 a year. So we have been extremely active in pursuing those, and ive made it very clear to all of the organizations, if anybody knows of discriminatory activity thats going on that were not already addressing, please let us know. Okay. Have you received any complaints at this point . Reich i salike i said, we ge 8,000 a year, and we deal with them as they come in. Okay. Do you know about how many youve resolved . The resolution is about 80 . Thank you, madame chair, i yield back. The gentleman from wisconsin is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chair waters and thank you secretary karson for coming today. I want to talk to you about Opportunity Zones. In southeastern wisconsin we have a handful of Opportunity Zones particularly in jamesville and kenosha. Theres a lot of opportunity in these Opportunity Zones, and people are quite excited about the possibilities that they bring to bring rejuvenation into these cities. Could you comment on what youre working on at hud in supporting qualified Opportunity Fund investments in housing . Yeah, we actually have a lot of components that are working on this. For instance, when it comes to Economic Empowerment and development, the Commerce Department is spearheading the activity. When it comes to entrepreneurship, Small Business is spearheading the activity. When it comes to education and work force development, both the Labor Department and education department, when it comes to safe communities and environmental concerns, the department of justice is spearheading that. And when it comes to assessment of whats going on and measurements, the council of economic advisers is spearheading that. So we have a number of different spearheads tackling the problem. I appreciate that and i would ask you if your schedule permits sometime to come to southeast wisconsin and explore firsthand what opportunity these Opportunity Zones present to some of the communities in the area i would love to. Ive been there before, racine in particular. Yeah. At s. C. Johnson. Good things going on there. We would love to have you back. I want to shift gears in my limited time and talk about state and local barriers to development, and so secretary carson, many of my colleagues seem to believe that the answer to our housing is simply the amount of money we spend, but i think were coming to a bipartisan consensus, and its emerging that were recognizing also the role of state and local barriers to development, in particular those that are restricting access to housing. Strict land use laws in places in particular like new york, san francisco, in los angeles are making it hard to deliver Affordable Housing, and this is pricing low income families out of their neighborhoods. It makes it hard for striving young people to move to a place where jobs are actually plentiful. Can you talk about the high regulatory costs and how its making it harder for hud in local housing authorities to serve those in need . Yeah, well, you know, when you look at zoning regulations, for instance, you take a place like los angeles. 70 to 80 of the land is zoned for Single Family housing with a certain amount of property and then you throw on top of that all the regulatory barriers including recently the need for some solar input. Are you kidding me . So this just piles up, ask thats why you see people who make 50, 60, 70,000 a year living on the street in tents. This can be resolved, but it needs to be resolved with federal, state, and local authorities. I understand that mayor garcetti has recently began to look at allowing accessory dwelling units, and which will certainly help the situation. Those are the kinds of things, though, that we have to be looking at. As i said before, we can solve this problem if we dont make it political. Lets just use what we have and solve it. I appreciate those comments. Thats an incredibly important topic, and we need to continue to look at the local aspect of these land zoning rules that are driving up the cost of housing in very particular communities in the United States, and i appreciate your time today. I yield back. Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman from new jersey, mr. Gothheimer is recognized for five minutes. Thank you chairwoman waters and thank you mr. Secretary for being here today. Thank you. One of the issues that im particularly focused on is the tightening of the credit box. I know that you and my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, we all agree that we need to expand access to credit in a responsible manner so that those who deserve to be in a home can be. We also know that hud plays a Critical Role in getting people in homes. Secretary carson, in your opinion, whats the biggest factor that has caused the credit box to shrink, and what is hud doing it to combat it . Fear, i think, risk, fear of risk, and looking at things that have happened historically. What are we doing about it . Were trying to expand the number of people who give credit by alleviating some of their anxiety. I just mentioned what we were doing with the false claims act so that we can bring more people who can provide credit into the market. Are you seeing a shift . I think its starting to shift, a b salubsolutely. Its going to take a while, you know, for people to trust whats going on, but they will see over the course of time that were consistent. Thank you, and also, i was hoping to ask you about a specific extension of credit and expanding, started to talk about this and one level down on federal Housing Authority loans which youve covered. In your testimony specifically you said that youve noticed a greater number of borrowers looking for if, ha loans with higher debt and lower Credit Scores and hud is using closer scrutiny before issuing these loans to mitigate risks. How is hud currently working to strike a balance between promoting access to credit via fha loans and managing risk . Well, were trying to look at data and using that rather than just using, you know, ideology when it comes to issuing credit. You know, that really comes back from my days in medicine where evidence made a lot of difference, and thats the difference between the fact that at the last turn of the century before 2000, the average age of death was in the 50s, and at 2,000 it was approaching 80s. The main difference is that the medical profession began to use evidence in their policy, and it made a huge difference in our longevity. And when you said closer scrutiny in your testimony, how do you is that using the data . How are we using the data differently . How has that process changed if you dont mind me asking . Well, you look at things you look at best practices. You look at things that have worked in some areas, and you say, why is that working . You try to dissect that out, and then you see if you can make that more broadly applicable. Great, and thank you very much for your time today. I yield back. The gentleman from texas, mr. Guden is recognized for five mptds. Thank you, madame chair, and thank you secretary carson. Is there anything you havent talked about today youd like to discuss . Oh, boy, that opens up a big box. But i will tell you the thing that i am most concerned about is the affordability of housing. You know, we have more than 8 million families in the United States who pay more than 50 of their income for housing, and you know, we need to really focus a lot of attention on that and get this problem solved. Do you think spending more money will solve that problem . Spending more money is not the solution. Again, getting to the etiology of the price increases and what can we do that will enable us to build more housing, more Affordable Housing. Several of my colleagues have mentioned youve been inaccessible. Have you met with leadership of this committee and with my colleagues across the aisle to discuss their ideas . I have tried. The chairwoman has not had time to met with me, but ive met with several other members and weve made some good progress. Well, i would encourage those discussions to continue, and i thank you for your work and the hard work youve done at your organization and for whats to come. Thank you, i yield back. Thank you, the gentlewoman from virginia ms. Wixon is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madame chair, and thank you secretary carson for joining us here today. As you may be aware, the house last week passed the equality act which includes a lot of broad protections for the Lgbtq Community but for our purposes one of the things im most pleased about is that we are explicitly including the Lgbtq Community as part of the Fair Housing Actss nondiscrimination protections. Do you agree with this inclusion . Well, i certainly agree with nondiscrimination and with being fair to every single individual in our society. So you would approve of the inclusion of Lgbtq Community as a part of the Fair Housing Act protections explicitly protecting them from discrimination in housing . If you want to include them as one of the protected classes, i think that is something that congress will be responsible for. Very good. And i guess one of kyour responsibilities would have to do with the rule making and the rules for hud and inclusion within hud, is that correct . And our responsibility is to make sure everybody is treated fairly. And in march 2017 your agency removed links to key resource documents informing emergency shelters on best practices for serving transgender people facing homelessness, and you withdrew a proposed policy that would have required hud funded emergency shelters to pose notice to residents to inform them of their rights to be free of antilgbtq discrimination under hud regulations, right . We are creating a situation where there is more local jurisdictional control. But you removed that guidance from the site and it has not been replaced . Thats correct. Last month while you were testifying before the house appropriation subcommittee about huds withdrawal of these guidance documents you said that they were not needed and that the equal access rule was in place, is that correct . The rules from 2012 and 2016 adequately provide for fairness for all communities. So those rules are still in place . Yes, they have not been removed. Okay. And you also stated we have not made any attempt to change them, is that correct . We have not changed any of the rules. Ask that was the case when you testified in appropriations. Is that still the case today . Its still the case. Okay. And can you assure this committee that you will not make any that hud does not have any current or future plans to eliminate the equal access rule during in rule making . Im not going to say what we will do in the future about anything. We dont know what were going to do in the future. Are you currently anticipating doing that . Im not currently anticipating changing the rule. Well, what has your agency done to ensure that the equal access rule is ensure that the equal access rule is implemented and recipients are aware of the funding under the equal access rule . We have left the rules up from 2012 and 2016, and we have made it very clear that we will continue to enforce fairness for everyone, and when something is brought to our attention that is not fair, we will deal with it. So youre not being proactive. Youre just going to be reactive on this issue . We are being very proactive in terms of making sure that discrimination is not occurring. Secretary carson, you just testified that you took down the guidance, right . The guidance was not necessary. The guidance was providing a lot of regulatory input, federal thumb on everything as opposed to allowing local jurisdictions to make their rules based on the 2012 and the 2016 you dont think its appropriate for hud to do that at the National Level . Not on that issue, no. So you have removed the guidance, you testified that you have no plans to eliminate the equal access rule, but youre also not proactively enforcing it. Youre waiting for complaints to filter their way up to hud and then youll deal with it. Is that what youre saying . No. One of the things im saying is if you want to do Something Different about the definition of gender, that is a congressional duty. Thank you. I have no further questions. Ill yield back. The gentleman from virginia is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman and Ranking Member mchenri. Secretary carson, i appreciate you taking the time to answer all of our questions today. Having escaped poverty and lived in Public Housing you certainly bring an important perspective to the housing challenges we are facing today and were grateful to have you here. In your june testimony you mentioned the issue of the faa having to deal with what you called very archaic i. T. Could you expound on some of the things hud has been working on over the last year to modernize old i. T. Systems, and secondly, in your opinion, what specific things still need to be done in order to bring huds i. T. Programs up to date . Still a lot of our platforms are 40 years old. So technology has been left behind. What we have done is been able to create a dashboard that gives us re us real time information on where our grant money is and how its being spent. This allows you more flexibility to the various jurisdictions and thats something that im very excited about. In fha, thanks to congress, weve been able to at least start updating our Information Technology platforms. Its going to take quite a bit more, but were getting there and thats the important thing. Because you know, we dont want to fall behind all the other servicers and that puts a lot of tax money at risk and also makes us inefficient and thats something we want to change as quickly as possible. Thank you, because i think 40 years ago i was playing pong so im glad there are some advancements going on here. So thank you for that. Another topic i would like to address are Opportunity Zones and the reason there is because i have the biggest district in virginia. Its actually bigger than six states. Its bigger than new jersey. We have the most even though we have one of the 11 districts, i think we have 18 of the Opportunity Zones throughout the entire state. They were created under the tax cuts and jobs act of 2017 to stimulate Economic Growth and job creation. Could you discuss some of the things hud is doing as far as incentivizing Economic Growth in low income communities and do you see opportunities growing or expanding in the future . Yeah. Were providing preference points for people who are willing to go into Opportunity Zones. You can buy something there. You can build something there. You can invest in something. There are a number of mechanisms you can utilize. Were also expecting expertise, people who can help people create programs that will attract other resources into the area and ways to partner with entities that already exist within the Opportunity Zone. As Everybody Knows im very supportive of Opportunity Zones, especially with the Fifth District of virginia having so many. We dont have a lot of time but i think i have one more question here and i thank you again very much for answering these questions. Over the last several years weve seen a dramatic increase in natural disasters. In my district weve been affected by multiple hurricanes and flooding. In your opinion, how would you rate huds response to the most recent disasters . Weve had an unprecedented number of disasters since i became the hud secretary. I hope i havent caused them but the fact of the matter is i think the response has been good. Im never satisfied with it. Thats why im always asking is there Something Else we can be doing to get these funds out faster, but do recognize that hud is the longterm entity when it comes to a disaster. Sba, fema, army corps of engineers, those are the shortterm responders. Having said that, i still want to speed the process up so the whole concept of codification in certain arenas is a good concept, taking out unnecessary steps, a very good concept, and i would personally like to get it down to you have a disaster, six months you got everything you need. Thank you, secretary carson, very much, and i yield my time. The gentle woman from california, ms. Porter, is recognized for five minutes. Good afternoon, mr. Carson. My. Are you in favor or opposed to adjusting the interest curtailment penalty schedule for fha loans that are in default . I dont know that i can say broadly. I think you can im asking you to state specifically. I think you have to look at specifications. In some cases i might be in favor of it and in some cases i might not. Okay, do you know what the Interest Rate occcurtailment schedule is at fha and how its different from the gses . We tend to try nineto mainta lower Interest Rate. Im not asking about Interest Rates, sir. Im asking about interest curtailment penalties. Explain. So, fha uses different servicing and conveyance procedures than the gses do, and the result is that the cost of servicing, Mortgage Servicing at fha for a nonperforming mortgage is three times the cost of doing the equivalent servicing at the gses for a nonperforming loan. That tripling of cost in servicing which then has the effect of reducing the Credit Availability to the American People because when you drive up servicing costs, then servicers overlay with cost overlays and it makes the loans more expensive for the very homeowners that fha is designed to serve. So my question im trying to drive at here is why is fha to use a term i think we can both understand lousy at servicing mortgages . I have not had any discussions about that particular issue but i will look it up and find out whats going on. As you look it up, id also like you to get back to me if you dont mind to explain the disparity in reo rates. Do you know what an reo is . An oreo . Not an oreo. An reo. Real estate . Whats the o stand for . Owned, real estate owned. Thats what happens when a property goes to for closure. We call it an reo. Fha loans have much higher reos than comfortable loans at the gses. Id like to know why were having more foreclosures that end in people losing their homes with stains to their credit and disruption to their communities in their neighborhoods at fha than we are at the gses. I would be extremely happy if you would like to have you work with the people who do that. Mr. Carson, respectfully, that was my day job before i came to congress. So now its my job to ask you to work with the people. Im talking about the people at hud who do that. I spent a decade working with the people at hud on this problem. So what i would like you to do is take this back to fha and to ask the folks at fha because since 2007 i have been writing about the problems in fhas servicing. I am a huge fan of fha. I am a believer in their mission and i am a champion for them. Are you . Of course i believe in the mission of fha. Are you a champion for the institution, the organization . Very much so. So, let me make sure you understand. When a loan, the most common outcome for an fha loan that goes into default is reo, theres a conveyance process. Are you familiar with this . I know about the conveyance. Let me ask you about conveyance. What actions is hud taking to change the conveyance process at fha to address the loss recovery differential between fha loans and gse loans . Again, youre getting way down in the weeds here and real American People are out of their houses so they are literally in the weeds when they are foreclosed on. Understood. Im very happy to put you in contact with the people who deal with that. If i got down in the weeds on every issue, i wouldnt get very far. Okay. I appreciate it. But this has been a problem for years. The urban institute issued a major report on this and i will be happy to send you a copy. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. I want to make sure you let me ask you this, given these problems, the outcome is that fha is the leading cause of blighted homes in the United States. What can you do about that . Do you understand the relationship between the blight and the servicing problems . I understand that blight is a huge problem and that and that agen agencys inaction. Im not sure that im willing to accept the cause of the blame. I hope you feel differently after you read the report. Thank you. The gentleman from illinois, mr. Garcia, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Secretary carson, thank you for being here with us today and engaging us in conversations about hud. I want to begin with a proposal pending before this committee known as the safe housing and families act. It takes action in the aftermath of the 13 deaths that have occurred in federally subsidized housing since 2003 including as recently as february when anthony and Gwendolyn Fleming died of Carbon Monoxide poisoning at Hickory Hollow cooperative, a hud complex in michigan. They were the third and fourth deaths to occur this year since april. As you know, hud has been developing a rule to put an end to these preventable deaths by requiring co2 detectors in Public Housing, but it could be many months before that rule is finalized as the process goes. On friday a story ran on nbc news website in which a hud spokesperson is quoted as saying, quote, congress can fix this by passing legislation requiring Carbon Monoxide detectors to those living in hud Housing Units where detectors are needed. Secretary carson, that legislation is before this committee today. This is that public hearing. The safe housing for families act would codify the rule so that you are developing into law and would provide 10 million in funding over ten years to carry out the objective of stopping avoidable deaths like the ones i mentioned. This is double the amount that hud announced yesterday would be made available. Secretary carson, would you support the safe housing for families act . As ive mentioned to you in the past, im 100 for getting this Carbon Monoxide issue settled and i appreciate your help in helping getting that done. As quickly as we can get it done, its going to get done. Thank you, secretary. I accept your endorsement. Two, changing gears and returning back to a topic we were discussing previously, the mixed status rule, id like to share with you a story about joyce bell. She was raised in chicago and has always struggled to have clean green safe and Affordable Housing. Shes experienced homelessness and when not homeless, rented from slum lords. A landlord broke into her home and turned off her electrical services. Shes lived in buildings that were foreclosed, then taken over by banks and then homes with dangerous conditions. Shes been on the waiting list at the chicago Housing Authority for over five years. Theres an estimated shortfall of about 3. 6 million affordable rental homes in this country and every day that hud doesnt have the resources to fill that shortfall, joyce and many people like her suffer. According to your agencys own analysis, implementing replacing mixed status families under your proposal will increase the federal cost of subsidizing units. Can you explain to joyce why she should remain on the waiting list so that hud can pay more money to implement a rule it acknowledges is unnecessary . Well, the people who are on the waiting list tend to have even greater needs than the ones who are not on the waiting list which sort of bolsters of point that those are the people who perhaps should be getting the Housing Assistance. Let me finish with this, secretary. Huds Regulatory Impact analysis states that, quote, perhaps the likeliest scenario would be that hud would have to reduce the quantity and quality of housing in response to higher costs. I think my colleague will do some followup questions on that. So when you claim that evicting eligible homes will free up those on the waiting list like joyce, that simply isnt true. Its not consistent with what your staff analysis at hud have concluded. Again, what theyve concluded is that the reason the costs would be higher is because the people are more needy who are on the waiting list. Thank you, madam chair. The gentle woman from texas, ms. Garcia, is recognized for five minutes. First id like to say that i have found the word illegal to be very offensive and i wish that more people would stop using that word. As someone who has deeply held religious beliefs that we are all gods children, i also have a firm belief that no human being is illegal. Madam chair, i would hope that in the future we would discourage any testimony or any reference to that term. Its offensive and its something that should just be, quite frankly, stricken from the record. In light of that, i do want to follow up, mr. Secretary. Some questions in the exchange that you had both with mr. Williams and mr. Vargas, could you just make it clear for the record with a yes or no that right now as the law stands noncitizens are not eligible for Public Housing . People who are not here legally theres a difference between a noncitizen sir, the question is noncitizens. There are some noncitizens who are eligible. There are some . Yes. Can you tell me which program, please . If you are in the United States legally, and youre not a citizen, then youre a noncitizen but that doesnt make you illegal. Right. Because to me, sir, it is really difficult for anyone in the capacity of a Housing Authority official to determine who is here authorized or unauthorized. There are so many different categories of Immigration Law that i frankly do not see how anybody would be able to determine at that level whether someone is here legal or illegal. But the point is really not about the legal or illegal. The point is that they shouldnt even be called illegal. Theyre either here unauthorized. Theres so many people brought here against their will, whether through human trafficking, through drug cartels. They may have had an expiration of their visa. Again, theres no way for someone to determine at the Housing Authority level that anyone is illegal. In fact, isnt it true that you prorate the rent down . It is true that you cannot prorate a roof over somebodys head. Thats not the question im asking, sir. Do you not prorate the rent, that if theres someone there that you think is unauthorized, that person does not get that portion of the rent . The concept of prorating makes no sense in this context. Sir, the question is, isnt that, in fact, the process that you use now . You may call it prorating but it doesnt make any sense and thats not what it what do you call it, sir . I call it giving aid and assistance to people who are here illegally. Its interesting to me because your staff seems to call it prorating and everybody else does. Lets go on to another point about cost. Are you going to be able to reimburse all these housing authorities if this rule were put in place for the millions of dollars its going to cost to evict these children . You know, what fascinates me is how you can be so interested in the symptoms without wanting to get to the root cause of the sir, im the one asking the questions with all due respect. Theres about a 13 million cost that ive come across. Its an estimate, only an estimate, in any of these evictions. Is hud going to provide any funding for the local authorities if this rule is put in place . All of huds current programs are in place. So youre going to shift 55,000 children from being with their families to then a homeless status. Whats going to happen with these children . Have you thought this program through . Maybe what will happen with them is that you and congress will do your job and solve the problem. Sir, it is your problem now and it is your solution to try to do this mixed status rule. Im asking if you thought this through. Again, this administration is attempting to separate children. Are you going to keep track of them . Are you going to be able to put them somewhere or will they be on the streets as little ir chins . As i mentioned multiple times, they have a sixmonth referral that can be requested which can be renewed two times which gives you 18 months. I take it you have no plans as to how youre going to handle this . They have 18 months which is enough time for congress to engage in what is needed to be done to solve the problem. Well, sir, i think its your responsibility because its your rule and i would hope that this separation of Children Policy would be a little bit better thought through because the last one has been a total disaster at the border. Moving on real quickly, im concerned that you have hud regulations that tell projects what they must have to make a home environmentally sound, hot water, cold water, heating. But in the south like texas and houston, it is extremely hot but it does not include air conditioning. Why is air conditioning not as important as heating in new york . I think air conditioning is very important. Why is it not included . It is in the process of being worked on right now. Please keep me posted on that right now, sir. Thank you. The gentle woman from massachusetts, ms. Pressley, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Secretary carson, ive waited a long time for this moment. The residents of my district have been waiting far longer for your agency to do its job. Colleagues across the aisle earlier were critical of a passion and outrage that weve expressed on this side of the aisle. I make no apologies for that. This matter is very, very personal. Let me be clear, housing is a fundamental human right and the displacement of families should be regarded as the Public Health crisis that it is. Mr. Secretary, your pioneering work in pediatric neurology is historic and something to be commended, so it pains me that your gifted hands and mine are doing the bidding and carrying the water of what i believe to be one of the most morally bankrupt president s in our nations history, increasing rents, evicting families. You mentioned that the operating room was a safe haven away from all the troubles of the world. Safe haven, thats exactly what a home should be and what every single person, in particular our children, deserve. Today youre not here as a doctor or even as a Surgeon General which i think might be better suited for your talents but as the official task with leading the agency overseeing our nations crumbling housing stock, and for that i do believe you are unqualified. You said this was not a political matter, but it does seem that political views are being played out in the policies that are being rolled out every single day. When you imply that people are living in Public Housing either because of a desire to be selfsufficient, questioning a work ethic, when we are eliminating a stock but not increasing supply, people in the massachusetts seventh Congressional District would have to work 84 hours to afford a decent onebedroom at fair market rent. Doris bunty, a former massachusetts state representative in my district and was the first africanamerican woman who hold the position of head of bha, the first Public Housing tenant to lead a Public Housing agency in a major city. She said being poor is not a character flaw. I agree. But again, given your medical background, perhaps you could weigh in on the Health Consequences of failing to invest in safe housing. Mr. Secretary, since i am short on time here, yes or no. Is stable unsafe housing a social determinant of health . Sounds like you have not been here and heard most of my testimony. Please just answer the question. Reclaiming my time. Yes or no, is stable housing a social determinant of health . Theres no question that housing is an important part yes or no . Its a part of health. It is well documented that Health Problems such as lead poisoning as injuries from trips and falls amongst our senior population can be linked to substandard Housing Conditions. Combined these conditions result in billions a year in health care costs. Many of those most at risk reside in public and federally assisted housing. Yes or no, if left unaddressed, do you believe the substandard Housing Conditions pose a risk to tenants physical and Emotional Health if left unaddressed . Yes or no, can you ask me some questions you dont get to dictate what my line of questioning is. Reclaiming my time. Youre a smart man you can reclaim all you want. Please answer, yes or no, if left unaddressed which i believe they are unaddressed because this budget does not reflect the need, do you believe the substandard Public Housing conditions pose a risk to tenants physical, mental and Emotional Health . You already know the answer to that. Yes or no . You know the answer. Yes or no . I know the answer. Do you know the answer . Yes or no. Reclaiming my time. You dont get to do that. The time belongs to the gentle lady. The evidence is clear that if we do not invest in necessary funds today, we will pay the price in Peoples Health tomorrow and what is this administrations response . Cuts. Cuts to crucial funding like the family selfsufficiency program, section 202 housing for early derl and 211 and even the complete elimination of the public Capital Housing fund. These are devoid of humanitarianty. Theres a mother and grandmother living in my district, raised here children and cares for her grandchildren in property with thick mold on the walls. Her son was recently hospitalized because of bone tumors in his arm and leg. He needs surgery to save and improve his quality of life but he wont get it because the family must have a sanitary stable Housing Condition first. Their actual home literally poses a risk of postop injury and infection. Her question to you is what do they become . When you raise children in these conditions, what can they become . So yes or no, do ms. Norcross and her family deserve to live in these conditions because they are poor . If youve learnistened yes or no . Would you let your grandmother live in Public Housing, yes or no . Under your watch and at your helm, would you allow your grandmother to live in Public Housing under these conditions . It would be very nice if you would stop you stated that the the gentleman from florida, mr. Lawson, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Its a great day in america. Doctor, welcome to the committee. When i was five years old, we lost everything, house and everything, and moved a number of times. Six in the family. My father had to recover and eventually we built a house, and i still own that house today after they are gone. So i do believe that if people work hard enough and they want to survive, they can survive, sometimes without the government help because there was no government help then. But one of the things that i would like to do, as you said earlier in your testimony and i lived in all kind of conditions, you know is to ask for the help from your department and to develop housing and im going to give you a chance to respond to that. And what i mean by that is to try to see if we can move people out of Public Housing into homeownership. A certain portion of the rent might go into a deferred account where eventually they can get enough money to get a down payment and be able to live in a home. The other thing is with all the millennials that we have now is also to develop affordable deductible tax deferred iras so as theyre renting all of this time that they can also set aside funds on a tax deferred basis so they at one point will be able to have homeownership. I really appreciate the opportunity when you came down to jacksonville with senator rubio and myself to meet at eureka gardens on the condition down there with these Management Companies and so forth which cause a lot of problems in a lot of Public Housing and are kind of hard to regulate. With those iras, ive been working on legislation on that, probably have a long ways to go to get the concept accepted but i think its something that we can move forward with, is to move people and im going to stop right now where you can talk before my time runs out. Thank you. And thank you for the work that youve done on behalf of the people who particularly in the jacksonville area were suffering very significantly. Thats what we should be doing, looking for ways to get those people into a different type of environment and thats really what this is all about. Its not about ideology and whos evil and whos bad. About about the people themselves, and when we can actually focus on them, thats how were actually able to solve the problems. Thats why i was able to come to an agreement with mayor de blasio in new york, even though we have very different views on things, by focusing on the people. Thats always going to be the solution for the problems that we have here. How do you feel about the deferred iras for housing . I think thats a very excellent idea. Were trying to find better ways to expand the family selfsufficiency program. One of the ways that ive been talking about and suggesting is that people be able to take part of their monthly subsidy, put it into an escrow, and that is used specifically for the maintenance of their apartment. If they dont have a lot of maintenance, it just continues to grow. Then if they leave Public Housing within a certain period of time, they get all that money that is accumulated and can use it for a down payment. There are a lot of people that can keep their head above water but theyll never be able to accumulate a down payment. That, as i said earlier, is the key method of wealth accumulation in this country, homeownership. I want to thank you for all your hard work and i would like for your agency to work with us to try to see if we can craft some legislation to bring before congress because i think this is a key of what we can do. Id love to work with you on that. Thank you very much, madam chair, and i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman from minnesota, mr. Phillips, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, and welcome, mr. Secretary. Thank you. One day in the distant future when you look back and reflect on your work at hud, what do you want your legacy to be . Im frequently asked about my legacy, and to be honest with you, im not a legacy person but i would very much like to see the Organization Turn from one that just takes care of people to one that sets people on a trajectory of success. In general terms, your philosophy relative to the role of federal government in providing housing to the least advantaged in the country . Well, i think we definitely have a responsibility to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves the elderly, the disabled, who simply arent able to do anything, but i think we have a responsibility to help those who are work able to get on a trajectory of success where they begin to believe in themselves. As i said before, most important resource that we have in this country is our people and we only have 330 million people. Thats not a lot of people compared to china that has four times that many, india that has four times that many. We have to compete against them. We will never be able to compete with them in the future if we dont concentrate on developing our people. I would agree. If i gave you a magic wand right now and you could wave it and affect one policy change that you think would lead us to that end, what might it be . If i could do one thing with a magic wand, i would make this country stop hating each other. Herehere. I would join you. Wed get a whole lot done. Ill share the wand with you. I have a question about mortgage insurance premiums. As you know, this is before you became secretary, but the Trump Administration suspended the proposed decrease by a quarter point in the premium rate and im just curious, have you considered that, and your thoughts on it and why this indefinite suspension continues. Certainly when i first came there was a lot of pressure to lower the premium by 25 basis points and they said more people would be able to get mortgage guarantees, but if we had done that we would have ended up less than 2 capital ratio required by congress. We would have ended up at 1. 7 . Now were in reasonable shape but we still have to be very careful because we have a lot of things that impinge on the mutual mortgage insurance fund. Its done on a day by day, month by month, week by week basis and making adjustments as necessary. Prospectively a chance . Always, absolutely. My last question, your position on establishing mortgage insurance with the private market, your thoughts . With the private market, we want to bring as much equity into the private system as we possibly can. Obviously we need to have government backstops in order to provide confidence in the market, but we need to enact policies that encourage private capital to come in. Your thoughts relative to the 78 threshold, when reached no longer requires mortgage insurance in the private market visavis fha . You know, i can understand why people come up with numbers like that. I think, again, we have to look at the risks their involved. What are the risks that were looking to mitigate against, and is there a one size that fits all model where 78 is the magic number. Im not sure that there is. What number might you select if you could choose one . I think it depends on the circumstances. Thank you, sir. I yield back. Thank you very much. Id like to thank secretary carson for his time today. The conversation that we had earlier about taking a break is not necessary now. Were going to go to our classified briefing and theres no need for you to remain. So without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit additional written questions to the chair which will be forwarded to the secretary for his response. I asked the secretary to please respond as promptly as youre able. Without objection all members will have five legislative days within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion into the record and with that this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. Later today, democratic president ial candidate, senator Amy Klobuchar of minnesota, will meet with voters in iowa. You can see it live at 6 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan, online at cspan. Org, or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Tonight on the communicators, we talk about the future of journalism in the age of big tech firms with news media alliances david chaverne and matthew shears. Facebook, google, apple, they employ exactly zero journalists. So the amount of journalism theyre doing is zero. Theyre not going to city hall. Theyre not going to school board meetings. Theyre not covering the president. They rely on delivering our content. New don. So the question isnt whether or not we want a strong and vibrant journalism industry. The question is how to get there and should we do it with antitrust specifically. We tried that in the 1970s when newspapers were last threatened by a new media, the broadcast era. It didnt work. Watch tonight at 8 00 eastern on cspan2. Former special Counsel Robert Mueller at the house intelligence and judiciary committees on wednesday, july 17th at 9 00 a. M. Eastern to testify in open session about his report into russian interference in the 2016 election. Watch live coverage on cspan3, online at cspan. Org or listen on the free cspan radio app. Now, a Senate Banking Committee Hearing on the re