Transcripts For CSPAN3 Water Infrastructure 20180111

Well, good morning. I call this hearing to order. Today were holding a hearing to highlight the importance of passing a new Water Resource Development act during 115th congress. Werta authorizes funding for the Civil Works Program. In order to write good legislation we must consider the effectiveness, the status of their implementation as well as our countrys future Water Infrastructure needs. They have jurisdiction over much of the waters infrastructure including locks and dams and ports. Prior congresses have traditionally passed on a bipartisan basis going back to 1986. Unlike other contentious issues, historically republican and democratic members have been able to Work Together and pass legislation. To put it another way, this is legislation that moves. It does so because regardless of Party Affiliation we understand these kinds of investments are far too important to our economy and security to fall victim to partisan politics. They represent a Diverse Group of communities with different needs. Our committee has members that represent baltimore maryland and alaska. Wyoming, wilmington, delaware. And millions of other americans expect us to do our job to grow economies and to keep them safe. When it comes to rural areas in particular, many depend oncor projects for their existence. Congress must act to make it easy for the core to prevent flooding and modernize levies. Those that cause the Big Horn River to flood small Rural Communities such as grabl, wyoming. Ice jams are a major Public Safety concern for towns that cant afford the out of control costs that come with flooding. And rural still face longterm supply and storage. Out west continue to lose existing space as a result of sediment build up. This is a big problem for Western State economies with significant ranching farming communities and enlarging energy communities. I believe the core and the burrow of reclamation need Work Together. Its my hope this committee will work forward to find solutions in a bipartisan way to meet our countrys infrastructure needs. Our nations ports, waterways are just as vite thool countrys economic well being. Goods, commodities go through these ports for export. In wyoming, it key component of making glass gets shipped out of the port of portland, oregon. We all have a vested interest in these ports. So i urge my colleagues to work with me in a bipartisan way to find these solutions in 2018. With that ill turn to the Ranking Member of the community of the committee for his comments. Senator, carper. We welcome all of our witnesses. Youre good to take time to share your thoughts with us and its a really important issue and an issue we might actually be able to work on together and get something done. In past years working with senator Barbara Boxer have been good at showing us how this is done. So hopefully we wont screw up a good thing and with your help, that will be the case. I want to say this is extremely important authorization given we do it about every two years. As we all know coastal issues are extremely important to delaware but as the chairman said in what i thought was a very good statement. You dont have to be on a coast, massachusetts or delaware to have a strong interest in this issue. It effects us all every day. But delawares economic reliance on the cores work is not unique. Over 99 of the u. S. Over sees trade volume and coastal chanls that the core maintains. Additionally the inland waterways and locks form a think of it as a water highway. Connecting waterways and ports and providing direct access and provide Critical Infrastructure for the military and work to reduce it risk to human safety and Property Damage from flooding. Flooding alone currently cost the United States billions annually. 2017 hurricane system illustrated, the nation needs to be a resilient one ready for the next storm or flood or drought event because they are coming. In fact just this week were told by ocean and atmospheric ed a ministration in 2017 total cost exceeded 300 billion. A if that seems like a lot of money, it is. A new annual record in the u. S. So clearly not a matter of if for the next extreme weather event is coming, a matter of when. The flood Risk Management activities account for 70 . But the core has or shares jurisdiction over many other critical Civil Works Programs as well. Including hydropower, recreation, Emergency Management and water supply. Unfofrp if thely in the mid1980s, funding for rehabilitation began to steadily decline. With this trend the cores actions have shifted to operations, maintenance, rehabilitation of infrustructure and a back log has continued to grow ever since. As a result much of the cores inf infrastructure is exceeding its life span. We have a couple graphics here. Its provided by our friends from the American Association port authorities. A busy chart but a good one nonetheless. And everyone should have at your desk a copy of this. But about 66 billion in investment and port related infrastructure is needed over the next decade to insure job growth. To insure that u. S. Job creation Economic Growth continues. I have another graphic also provided by the American Association of port authorities and as this shows investment in our Freight Network of ships, trucks and trains is essential to the safe and efficient movement of goods. And this serves as it backbone of our economy. Not just ships, barges, trains, trucks, its all the above and more. The American Association of Civil Engineers report card tells us a story with waterways receiving a grade of d. Deplorable. Representing an overall cumulative investment back log of nearly 140 billion and an authorized but unconstructed portfolio of another 60 billion. The core face as sizeable math problem as they try to service that roughly billion dollars. Match that up with the annual budget around 4. 6 billion. The math just doesnt work, does it . Clearly we have a lot of importedant work to do. We need to work in a bipartisan fashion. In a smart, Cost Effective efficient way leveraging green and gray infrastructure solutions. I look we all look forward to hearing from our witnesses. I have something i want to submit for the record. I want to submit for the record these letters of acclaim for the newest member of our committee. No, actually this information deals with our hearing material. But i just want to say to chris, welcome aboard. Senator harris came up to me yesterday and said im moving off your committee and i said i know were sorry to hear that. And she said im keenly interested in thei issues and want to be part of your extended family. But for attorney general and somebody you want to be on the Judiciary Committee if you can get there and shell still be part of our team. Thanks very much. Id like to welcome senator rand holland to the committee and since my mom grew up in maryland working at the summer job, i could tell you with two of you from maryland and this history that now we can make sure that the Chesapeake Bay is fully protected. Chairman, i will say no more. Thank you. Welcome to the committee. Were now going to hear from our witnesses. Were going to start with an introduction in a second but we have mr. Scott robertsson, the associate legislature of the association of counties. The chairman elect of the ass association of port authorities. The National Policies specialist and mr. Steven cochran who is the associate Vice President for coastal protection, restore the Mississippi Delta Coalition and i believe senator cassy is going to be here to help hsenator cochran. I appreciate that and also for having the presence of Scott Robinson here. He is hes spent a lot of time in this business and we become good friends. One thing, building a little bit on what he just said. Its not just the coastal states were interested in. We are, in oklahoma, americas most inland warm water port. Now the problem is nobody knows it and i remember when i was in the state senate many in fact in the 70s we conceived something we thought were going to tell the whole world were in oklahoma. And so the World War Ii Submarine veterans came in. They said if you can procure a submarine we can figure out a way to get it from texas to oklahoma. Were talking about a submarine. U. S. S. Bat fish. The length of a football field and all my adversaries were saying were going to sink inhofe with the submarine. And there it is in your port 300foot submarine that shows the world we are in fact an inland port. So anyway, scott, its nice to have you here. You have a tremendous background. Youve been at the point of muskogy for 28 years now with more than 1,000 acres of land in the jurisdiction the port is poised to continue its growth and provide several transportation options. Scotts been active in the waterway communities, serving on a variety of related boards and commissions including the National Waterways conference, the marine transportation system, arkansas, oklahoma Port Operators Association. So its great to have you here. Youll bring a lot of knowledge to this meeting and i appreciate it. Thank you very much for that introduction. Good to see you. I could spend my five minutes talking about you but i wont do that. Well extend dont feel limited to five minutes if youre going to talk but i want to remind all witnesses your full testimony will be made part of the official hearing record and except for mr. Robinson i would ask you to keep your statements to five minutes. It is an honor and privilege to testify before you here today bute americas infrastructure needs. Thank you for this opportunity to contribute my thoughts. I am, as senator inhouse said port of muskogee, ive been there since 1990. Ril its one of two public ports in oklahoma and one of five in oklahoma and arkansas. I commend the committee for the work it has accomplished through 2014 and 2016. I hope to illustrate further in my testimony, the absence of regularly enacted werta legislation between 2001 and 2013 caused serious harm along the mcclellan arkansas Navigation System which in the interest of time i will refer to as m carnes. It is a 445 multipurpose waterway that runs through arkansas and oklahoma at a cost of 1. 2 billion. It was the largest federal investment ever made in a civil works project. Connecting the two states, oklahoma and arkansas with domestic rivers, ports and terminals along the inland waterways of the United States and ports all over the world, via the port of new orleans and new mexico. In 2015 there was a regional impact study conducted and published documenting the impacts, 55,000 jobs, 289 million in taxes to the national economy. Youll find a copy of that in attachment 8 of my testimony. In attachment d you will find a letter signed by the president of the oklahoma arkansas Port Operators Association endorsing its priorities for the mcarns. You will find my the briefing we made to the congress and to stake holders and congressional staffers in attachment b and c. I would like to take a few minutes to talk about inf infrastructure for the mcarns and give a glimpse of the water structure needs. Number one, priority was modification of an existing structure near the confluence of the mcarns and the Mississippi River, the Arkansas River and the white river trying to come together. The court has to spend money to fix the problem. A solution is imperative. The permanent solution will soon some out of a core study. And costs shares by the state of arkansas. Once it stidy is completed, the melinda structure will face new start and cost share hurdles. Until then its at risk of failure. Number two, back log of critical maintenance. Theres a back log of deferred maintenance. 143 million of which is deemed critical. They define critical as having a 50 chance of failure within five years. In march of 2017 there were 42 such critical maintenance items. More alarming than that, the critical back log is growing rapidly. In his testimony in 2016, tulsa director expressed concern that the critical back log had reached 70 million. So thats twice as much today. The problem on the ncarns is no different than across the nation. We are fixing critically important infrastructure as close to failure as possible and in some cases after it fails and an on emergency basis. This is not an acceptable asset management, this is for failure. Before 2014 and 2016 the congress in section 136 of the energy and Water Development appropriations act of 2004 authorized the deepening of the mcarns from 9 to 12 feet. In the Water Development and appropriations act, 7 million was appropriated for the channel deepening. 5. 5 million was useds for design activities which reduced the project cost by a like amount. In 2009 the Court Expressed a 40 million capability but it never ended up in the president pfsz budget. Suffice to say being lost in the switch is not good. The committee can rescue the 12foot channel and restart the dilemma by including clarification language as follows. Congress finds that initial funding was provided and construction started on a 12foot navigation of the mcclellan Navigation System as directed in section 136 of the energy and Water Development aproepriations act, thereby meeting the new start requirements. According to the institute of Water Resources from 2010 to 2012, the army core off engineers provided a nationally economic net benefit of 87 billion in stimulated 27 billion in returns to the u. S. Treasury. 16 1 return in terms of economic benefits and 5 1 for the treasury. Waterways investment is a wise investment. If theres going to be a comprehensive infrastructure plan then my plea is that it not just be for roads and bridges but for waterways too. Not just for deep coastal ports and harbors but for waterways too. For efish nlt competitive movement of freight. To the extent waterway projects are favorably considered in such a plan and require private investment as leverage, then the Water Infrastructure created 2014 may be just the tool necessary to track such investment in projects for which the trust fund revenue are not sufficient to share. Wed be happy to answer any questions you may have. If you want me to tell some of the stories i will. Thank you very much. Before moving to ms. Effner, id like the invite senator cassdy, if its convenient to introduce your guest here today. The person, Steve Cochran is sitting behind me. I gather hes on the next panel but thank you for allowing me to introduce. And Ranking Member and other members, thank you for allowing me to introduce Steve Cochran. A dedicated louisiana servient. Hes worked for many years to restore and protect louisianas incredibly fragile echo system. The lake pauns train foundation, the Mississippi Delta Coalition and the Environmental Defense fund that makes him uniquely qualified to speak to the need of an innovative strategy to restore wedlands and restore coastal echo systems. Coastal louisiana is losing land as we speak. As we speak theres something on a google map that looked green and now would look like open water. It pose as serious threat to our state, to our communities and upon our state and nations economy. It is required our state to develop in a bipartisan fashion a comprehensive plan referred to as the louisiana comprehensive master plan for sustainable coast to restore louisianas coast based on sound scientific and modeling principals required to be updated every five years. While louisianas prepared to implement projects, the problem is the Environmental Review process challenges that threaten to stop these projects from going forward. Currently the average time frame for the government to approve a federal project is close to five years. Remember i said were losing coastline like this minute . We get five years to permit something and by that time theres been dramatic change. This time frame is unacceptable given the magnitude of the threat to the louisianas coastline. Revising the permeating approach for the core, particularly when multiple agencies are involved is critical so they focus on ways to expedite consideration of longterm echo system projects, rather than maintain the regulatory focus that only seems to impede the projects moving forward. A werta authorized project offers a textbook example of the need to increase transparency and improve coordination between federal agencies. The conversion will take fresh water and to threaten wetlands on the western side of the river to build and sustain new and existing wetlands. Now, the existing regulatory hurdles and multiple federal agencies will likely lead to multiyear for this and other large Ecosystem Restoration project, resulting in the loss of more coast. I look forward to working with this committee. To update and modernize the federal permitting process in the next authorization bill so were better able to maintain coastal environments and communities in louisiana and across the nation and i appreciate your letting me introduce senator cochran. Youre welcome to stay as long as you like. Now id liking to call on ms. Julie ufner, the associate legislative director for the National Association of counties. Welco welcome. Good morning. Im honored to testify before you today on Water Infrastructure needs and challenges. Im from the National Association of counties. We represent the nations 3,069 counties. Ive been asked to share with you our western counties experiences with the Water Resources Development Act, to work with the army corpse to keep our communities safe. Consider this. Counties own 45 of the nations road miles and close to 40 of the nations bridges along with harb rbz, ports, inland waterways, levies, dams. These play vital roles to keep our economy safe. This especially plays out in the west where water issues can be more complex. The federal government owns vast tracks of lantd which prevent counties from raising property taxes. Yet were so responsible for Law Enforcement and Emergency Services while also protecting our residents on nonfederal lands. The it federal government owns 97 in the land of city, juneau, alaska, which leaves the bureau with only 3 of useable land. Theyre highly dependent on tourism, mining and fishing to drive their 2. 6 billion economy and a large part of their success comes from funding that helps them maintain those navigation channels leading to their port. In park county wyoming, a community of 30,000 residents and comprised of 81 land in the last years has had mountain flooding and ice jams. This has destroyed bridges and roads, many of which lead to the gayw gateway of national parks. Werta could do more. Counties have aging infrastructure in their communities. Some of which close to 100 years old and we have a limited pod of funds to pay for this. One example, california where the local economy off 54,000 is almost solely dependent on an old wooden flum and ditch system for its water, which was built in 18 50s. This flum is located in a heavily over grown National Forest vulnerable to wild fires. If it were destroyed, the community would be without water for months. It would take over a year to rebuild, dev stating the local economy. Additionally some federal regulations slow down construction and ease costs for Public Safety projects. Orange county, california maintains several 00 miles of flood channels intended to protect roads, businesses from flooding. But for maintenance activity, such as cleaning doubt bree, the county is required to obtain permits from the army core of engineer. It took the county approximately three years to obtain the permit and required 20 acres of mitigation at a cost of over 3. 5 million for a permit only valid for five years. This is not an isolated example. Additionally our counties note there are challenges within the existing army core structure which includes cumbersome and complex requirements, the lengths of time it takes to complete water studies, limited fundish and competing hc requirements. Congress has a unique opportunity to address this issue and were encouraged by the senates stated commitment to complete a bill this year. We continue to look forward to addressing challenges for Public Safety infrastructure. We would also like to address funding needs because our countries would not have been able to accomplishing the multitude of projects that wooevl rr been able to carry out in the past several decades. Finally we encourage congress to provide framework of meaningful consultation between state and local government partners on pending rules and policies that directly impact those entities. We believe this will solve many of the conflicts that exist with twhe between the army corpse and its governmental contracts. Together we can work to make the partnership stronger. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and id be happy to answer any questions. We appreciate your being here today. Id like to turn to the president elect of the port of authorities. Thank you. I want to thank you for the opportunity to provide remarks to the environment and Public Works Committee on americas Water Infrastructure needs and challenges. Im president and chief executive officer of the Cleveland Port authority which we usually shortn to the port of cleveland because its a mouthful. It is the maritime sector, which is a Major Economic contributor to our state and economy. Transport 3. 5 billion in annual Economic Activity and supports 20,000 jobs in our community as well. Im also speaking on behalf of the American Association of port authorities. It sets policy for our members. My remarks will provide illustrative examples of needs faced by public ports and recommendations to improve the core of engineer navigation program. Apa members appreciate that they understand the role in the sea ports economy. Its essential to the nations infrastructure opportunities. Theyre committed to this challenge with plans to invest upwards of 555 billion between 2016 and 2020. It is imperative that related infrastructure be a part of any investment legislation the committee develops. The apa has identified 66 billion in potential water side and land side investigations from an anticipated 155 billion in port capitol infrastructure. And consists of full use of harbor trust fund, revenues, surplusz to restore federal navigation channels and 6. 2 billion for the cost share improvements authorized in 2015 and 2016 and projects currently being studied that will get authorized in the coming years. They believe a significant federal investment would increase the economy, enhance Americas International competitiveness and generate additional tax revenues. I provided two graphics which senator had pointed out that outset. Theyre both available to you. They look like this. The first provides details on the 66 billion needs and the second graphic highlights the types of port related projects that can benefit. Turning to werta, it is vitally important it be passed on a two hadyear cycle as it enables small policy changes and navigation projects to be authorized. I look forward to the next legislation to continue making these improvements in the legislation and would point out apas three key Priority Issues for the next as follows. First, 2014 was landmarked legislation establishing a path to full use of the Harbor Maintenance tax revenues for its intended purpose. 2016 adjusted the annual funding approach so progress is made. Were grateful the funding projects are being met through the appropriations process. However, we contend to be provided directly to the core of engineer. My fellow members and i working on a an approp that includes an industry supported spending formula. Number two, authorize and proceed to construct navigation improvements recommended in chief engineers reports. This includes the sulocks rehabilidation on the great lakes and past include streamlining the core of engineer, and that has worked well. We think additional streamlining approvements can be made. The apa will submit a list of streamlining soon. I urge you to develop and pass Infrastructure Investment in the legislation at the earliest possible time. Be happy to address any questions you might have for me. Thank you very much. We look forward to the questions in a little bit. Id like to first turn to ms. Nicole carter for the Congressional Research services. Members of the committee, my name is nicole carter. Im a specialist at . Congressional research service. The committee requested we folk thons legislative process for related issues in 2018. I will start with a premmer and then discuss delibitations and end with broader contest in 2018. Congress is often involved at the project level when it comes to the u. S. Army core of engineer. Congress authorizes the core to perform specific projects and restore aquatic echo systems. Prior to providing federal funding. Most dont require reauthorization. A time number of tom limited authorities and authorizations of appropriations end in 2018 and 2019. Authorization does not guarantee federal appropriations for a project. Although congress does not attribute funds. Provisions have provided targets for Navigation Trust funds and have established the nonfederal, federal split of timing costs. Werta 1986 marked the end of a decade long stalemate regarding cost sharing and user fees. Since 1986 congress has aimed to avoid long delays between the planning and execution of projects. Bienial enactment was followed from 1986 until the early 2000s. Since then its been less regular. In 111 and 112th congresses was how to draft a bell without commonly referred to as ear marks. Instead they developed new re porting process ease. The 113th congress enacted theal wot resources reform act of 2014. And authorized 34 new construction projects. The 114th congress enacted the next one in 2016. It authorized 30 new construction projects. Werta 2016 was a title of a water authorization bill that covered a range of issues includingtle activities. All 64 new Core Construction projects authorized in 2014 and 2016 had a complete report by the core of engineer. Since 2016 five chiefs reports have been completed to projects in texas, two in florida and one in new york. An additional 12 to 18 reports may be completed by the end oif 2018. Congress also uses them to authorize significant changes and projects. They recmnd an increase in the savannah harbor expansion project. It created a new process and requirement to annually collect and report on publicly submitted proposals for core studies and projects. The most recent was delivered in march 2017. It includes 14 public proposals and modifications to existing projects. The deadline for the next report is 2018. Many topics sdhap livereratiber such as the safety and operation of core dams and levies. Three broad topics are relevant to 2018 are the infrastructure initiative. How may a broad infrastructure november initiative relate to existing federally owned inf infrastructu infrastructure . Two, what will the federal government expect of nonfederal project sponsors in coming years and what can they expect in terms of partnering and financing projects. Three, floods. Recent disasters have raised numerous questions. Like how effective and efficient are current process ease to reduce nations flood risk. Thank you. This concludes my statement. Well, thank you very much. We appreciate your testimony and may be questions in a little bit. Id like to now welcome the aVice President for coastal protection, restore the Mississippi Delta Coalition. Thank you so much for joining us today. I also want to thank senator cassdy for coming here this morning. I dont know if you notice but hes got a bad cold so i particularly appreciate him being willing to come out today. They do valuable work on behalf of our communities. For the record im Steve Cochran. Director of a coalition called restore the mississippi delta. Were a combination of the National Autobahn Society and National Wildlife association and the coalition to restore Coastal Louisiana and the lake paunz train base foundation. In addition to my own written statement, which is submitted for the record, Coalition Members have also submitted written testimony and i hope the committee can give them Due Diligence as well. Id like to tell you a little bit about the challenges in my home state, louisiana, where as senator cassdy said we have a crisis. I want to focus on possible solutions from what we believe are lessons from the front. Louisiana coast, since the 1930s, has lost about 1900 square miles. That loss is roughly the size of the state of delaware. Without arksz we are projected to lose miles. These losses have dramatic implications for millions and atlaumg coast. For globally significant port facilities and world class habitat that supports countless wildlife species including recreational fisheries. While the crisis is unique, its challenges are reflected across the kwucountry. 2017 set the record for weatherrelated damages across the ucountry. Majority of which were from hurricanes and flood. From that perspective here are general concepts we would recommend. First, coastlines are complex system and each area requires its own carefully considered measures to adopt changing conditions. Second no engineered or National Structure is 100 effective. But they can be ruled far more important when in concert with natural processes. And in many cases our nations wetlands and flood plains are in themselves critical infrustructure. They can be used specifically to reduce the impacts and costs of floods and storms. In louisiana, the state and its partnership use these concepts in constructing their own approach. Louisianas master plan is a document which guides comprehensive state planning initiative, based on cutting edge science and modeling, driven by priorities. Recognizes finite funding and quite remarkable bipartisan support. Its incorporated the latest science and reflect progress. Each update must be approved by the state legislature and each of its iterations have all been approved unanimously. Its also informed by a exceptional public ingaugement process. We strongly recommend other states facing significant flooding challenges examine the master plans approach. Gray projects like rock shore lines or levies are complimented with oyster reefs as well as nonstructural approaches. These combination of these measures are organized to create multiple lines of defense. You see the array of various approaches that can be married toorpth, both structural and natural to really provide the sort of multiple lines of defense. Thats true along rivers. Its true along coastlines and its this kind of thinking we would strongly recommend to the committee in incentives that it builds into the system going forward. This next chart is simply a version done specific to louisiana where you can actually see how it works in our setting. These charts are in the written testimony. And you can look at them in more detail that way. Now, the natural aspects of these are really beneficial because they have so many cobenefits. Oyster reefs, which help reduce wave problems also grow oysters. While the storm surges that can be stopped by wetlands, wild wetlands maintain significant habitat. Maritime swamp and mangrove forests can lower wind speeds from storms while also supporting vast numbers of wildlife and commercial species. So its these things together that we think really make the most sense, particularly as we have limited assets and finite resources going forward. One final element i want to tell you about, senator cassidy mentioned was the sediment diversion as a unique and innovative approach. This was initially authorized in 2007 under a different name. It will take up to 75,000 cubic feet of fresh water and sediment from the Mississippi River at strategic times in the rivers cycle, deliver to it the threatened wetlands on the western side of the river. In doing so, it will use the power of nature to build and sustain tens of thousands of wetland acres, including those created through separate projects. These wetlands will in turn provide buffering for the levees which inside of which are our communities and the industry that we depend upon. So you get the mixed of natural infrastructure protecting built infrastructure protecting our communities and coast. Its that combination that we think makes the most sense. Now its a wonderful approach for us. But i have to add here that these kind of projects are not without challenges. In this case, because of the projects essential nature for our work, the state has decided to fund it entirely on its own through resources that came through the deepwater horizon penalties. Those, of course, are subject to federal agency permitting, as they should be. And i want to underscore the importance from our perspective of Environmental Review and in frank even our opposition to some of the forms of streamlining that weve seen. However, the federal permitting timeline of nearly five years for this urgent already long study project is unacceptable given the urgency that we face. In this case, some delays stem from several factors, including the challenges some agencies face in accounting for what happens if no action is taken at all. Given the urgency of this crisis and the challenges associated with it, it may be that a target legislative solution is required, which if done carefully and without underlying damage to the statute, we support. Here and else where, we are encouraging permitting agencies including noaa to final ways to consolidate the time lines. In summary, louisiana is deploying multiple lines of defense and pursuing innovation to address a coast in crisis. But to be successful, it needs reliable, effective federal partner that can provide timely and appropriate resources and stay focused on solution. As the Committee Moves forward with this authorization, we encourage you they than formula for the rest of the country as well. I went a little long and thank you for your patience. Were now going to move on from a series of questions. Ill start with you if i can. Many stakeholders who work with the corps of engineers have comment and complained a little bit about the process it follows from identifying a Water Resources problem to implementing a solution and can be long costly delays. For example, in the arid west, there are many water supply challenges that havent yet been solved such as removing sediment from reservoirs to providing more water supply capacity and effectively managing multiwater supply needs such as flood Risk Management, drinking water, irrigation, all from a single reservoir. So as a result, the water supply is becoming scarce and more expensive. Can you please share in any thoughts you might have to improve the corpss processes so that the water resource projects are operated more efficiently. Thank you, senator. We actually have a number of suggestion, but in the interests of time, im going to limit it to two. First improve the governmental collaboration between the corps and local governments. The corps has a lot of Technical Assistance that is very valuable to local governments. But the processes and permits that they have often prohibit or slow down projects from moving forward. And secondly, congress may want to consider doing requiring the corps to do a regulatory efficiency assessment of corps processes, and have the corps submit to congress the results of this with potential alternatives on how theyre going to address it. Thank you. And as you say, though, youre just going to share two. If there are additional ones youd like to provide in writing. We would be happy to do so. Thank you. Mr. Robinson as well as mr. Friedman, ports and inland waterways are very important to the lifeblood of the American Economy and our Economic Activity. Every year over a trillion dollars worth of goods moves through the ports and inland waterways from and to every basic corner of the United States and around the world. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of ports and inland waterways and how their management impacts your ability to transport goods, allowing us to keep jobs at home and allowing us to more effectively compete globally . Senator barrasso, just speaking on behalf of the m carnes and from tulsa, oklahoma to muskogee, just in that segment of the waterway, 53 miles, there is more than 8,000 jobs. Annual payrolls to the counties and to the cities are 320 million annually. In muskogee, which is a community of 39,000 people, most of them manufacturers in that community, and muskogee is a manufacturing town depend on the waterway. So they depend on the reliability of the waterway. They depend on the transportation cost savings for delivering and receiving goods on the waterway. Its critically important to the economy of rural america. Were not investing in the system like we should be. Therefore were encountering delays and not a good situation in rural america. Mr. Friedman, would you like to add . Yes, thank you for the question, senator barrasso. So ill address that from the perspective of the great lakes and the st. Lawrence seaway where were all interconnected as ports and we trade with one another both within the system domestically, and there is also of course the international st. Lawrence seaway where we connect to all parts of the globe. The partnership we have with the army corps under werda to keep our harbors dredged is a critical lifeline for big cities like cleveland, detroit, chicago, as well as a number of Rural Communities. Its critical for agriculture, for heavy manufacturing, for steel making which takes place in cleveland based on iron ore which comes down from minnesota as one of the primary examples of the types of trade in our region. And then we have many cargos that flow in and out of the heartland through the st. Lawrence seaway, both exports from american manufacturers and imports like specialty steel that we rely on in the appliance Manufacturing Sector and other Manufacturing Sectors. So i think in total, the number for the entire system is on the order of 227,000 jobs both on the u. S. And the canadian side of the seaway and the great lakes. So making sure that we continue to get werda right, streamline the process, authorize new projects and get to full use and full spend of the Harbor Maintenance tax is a critical priority for us. Thank you. Thank you. Senator carver . Thanks. Lets start off with nicole carter, if i may. Excellent testimony. Very helpful. A question for you if i could. Given our current operating environment, with recently passed tax reform which reduces revenues over the next two years about 2 trillion, crumbling infrastructure, its just as bad with respect to roads, highways and bridges. Complete with limited numbers of chiefs reports and a large backup of corps projects, what are the big issues we should tackle on the next Water Resources Development Act . Thank you for question. In werda 2014, congress established new ways for nonfederal entities to be involved in projects. And this has resulted upon an additional projects being led by nonfederal entities. In trying to understand how well are those projects and processes working for those nonfederal entities as well as delivering in projects would be part of the process to understand how to incorporate a corps projects into a larger investment package. Basically, right now that process consists of the nonfederal entities often providing the funds up front and essentially signing an agreement that upon the availability of appropriations they may receive some reimbursements. Gao recently did a study that there are about 4 billion projects like this in the country. And that about 400 million has been reimbursed. But we dont know the total amount that requires to be reimbursed. How well those are working . Well, how well other agencies in the future want to make those investments and what they can expect in the which of the federal government partnering in those investments if they do choose to lead rather than wait for the corps. Thank you, thank you very much. I want to turn next to mr. Friedman. Thanks very much. Does the Cuyahoga River still catch on fire . No, sir. Were coming up on the 50th anniversary of that infamous fire, senator, and im happy to report that the Environmental Health of the river has been restored significantly. So were proud of what weve been able to achieve since that dark day. I was i stood in Ohio State University around that time. And we used to talk about fish fries up on the Cuyahoga River. The wrong kind. The wrong kind. A question for you if i could. By 2020, the total volume of cargo shipped by water is expected to more than double by what it was just 17 years ago in 2001. Ships continue to get bigger. We see more congestion at the docks. Larger ships require deeper navigational channels, as we know. Wi , which only a few u. S. Ports currently have. Receive goods as ships continue to grow in size is a policy, is it a policy issue . Is it a funding issue . Is it both . If it is a funding issue, how do we go about doing more with less . Okay, thank you for that question, senator. Ill try to address that. Yes, its certainly a funding issue and a policy issue both. As you heard me say earlier, apa is asking for 66 billion over the next 10 years to address many of those issues that you just spoke to, deepening water site projects such as deepening in order to keep up with the ships that are of course enormous today, as well as some landside projects to ensure that we have the intermodal connections so once that cargo comes off of that ship at a port or moves on to that ship, it can get to that port efficiently from an inland point. So we absolutely need a federal partnership. I would also point out that there is already what i would call a Robust Public Private Partnership in place because our port authorities work very closely with private sector Port Terminal operators and ship owners who invest heavily in our ports, are in partnership with our ports and with our federal government. So it will leverage the federal dollars will leverage additional private investment and go towards those sorts of Infrastructure Projects which there is no direct payback on. So we look forward to through this next round of werd and this infrastructure discussion well be having this next year to ensuring we can put a plan in place to fund those important needs at our ports. In my opening statement, i mentioned that the corps faces a rather indeed a real sizable math problem as it tries to service roughly a 200 billion requirement. And more with the annual budget that hovers around 4. 6 billion. Think about that. Think about that. 200, if you will requirement to meet and an annual budget that hovers around 4. 6 billion. Were just we know it costs a lot of money. We know how economically important it is in our country. Were just not spending the money. Were not investing the money. And we can do streamlining from now until the cows come home. Weve done a lot of smart streamlining. I think were prepared to do some more. There is a good opportunities to figure out how to leverage federal resource, state resources for to bring in private sector resources. Were doing that right now with the extension of the port of wilmington. But at the end of the day, one of the things we need is for the federal government to do its share, to do its part. And i thats not something that requires a response from any of you. I think thats the 800pound gorilla in the room that is the 800pound gorilla in the room. Thank you. Senator inhofe . I think senator carper brought out something that is significant and is unique that is in this area where were trying to bring in private sector funding, we actually had to pass a bill and a provision into the law to allow that to take place. I cant think of any other place in government where you have to ask permission to let the private sector pay for something. Mr. Robinson, i again appreciate your being here so that we can make it very visible to people that we have problems on this inland waterway. I can remember back when i first came to congress, i would go up through some of the Eastern States and see the problems theyve had with their old ports thinking, well, were pretty fortunate in oklahoma we dont have those problems. Well, now we do have those problems. Enough years has gone by weve outlived the lives of some of the our ports. And so we have to address that. We had a subcommittee meeting that i shared not long ago on transportation and infrastructure. And someone suggested that in the cost share of the inland Waterway Trust fund, it should be changed in some way. One suggestion was from 15 from the trust fund and 85 from the general fund. Are you familiar with that suggestion . Yes, senator inhofe, i am. And i think there probably needs to be an adjustment. You know, the problem as senator carper acknowledged is not doing more with less. Weve been trying to do that forever. Its not working. We need to do more with more and do it efficiently and in a businesslike manner. Yeah, well thats and those of us who have been down there and observed the problems that we have in some of these relatively new ports that carry our goods and services. Our nations system directly touches 38 states has been brought out. Its not just the coast. Three of our ports go through senator boozmans state. And two more ports are in oklahoma. Now in the fast act, for the first time, and ive been through all seven of them since 1987 that we were able to have a freight provision. And that freight provision left a lot of the authority up to the states as to how to how to expend that and so forth. So id ask the question, would allowing the states to use fast act freight funds on our waterways, if they chose to do it, would that be a valuable tool to address the issues and the needs of our inland states . I think so, senator inhofe. I think we need more tools. And that would be one of them. The question of course would be whether states who are so focused on their highways needs, roads and brirdges, how much effort or expenditure they would allow from those funds for waterways. And the other question is what would they use those funds for . Would they use to it costshare new projects . If that were the case, thing is a real need to costshare projects there is not enough money in the inland Waterways Trust fund to do that. Perhaps the states are going to have to pick up a little bit of the load there. So, yes, i think that. Its not going to happen unless somebody does something. Thats exactly right. Youve got to get aggressive and come in with the state. Right. Decide what the alternatives are, and then what percentage perhaps might be appropriate for that. Because id look at sources. And i run out of ideas. Anyway, i think thats something we can do and something that doesnt affect us here in the federal government as much as it does in the state government. Well, and i also think, senator inhofe, the water structure refinancing act that the congress authorized in 2014. Right. Is another tool that could be used. Its a leveraged, you know, because the federal government is getting the money back. Its a loan. So i think thats another one of the tools at our disposal. Tiger program. Okay. And there is a variety. Sure. We can get together and decide what we want to do on the state level. Ms. Ufner, the cities and states are facing a lot of crises when it comes to Water Resources and address these. I know other state, not just oklahoma, have some of these problems. In the city of bartlesville, oklahoma, the city is growing and in need of additional water storage. Now, we had water storage. And a result from one lake in that city. And as a result increased our the rates to the customers by over 100 . But when we tried to open up another one, and im not sure if youre familiar with this particular issue, but we went to the corps of engineers. And they increased they had a rate increase of 3,000 , which obviously that particular city of bartlesville was not able to do anything. When i ask the gao to investigate how the corps comes up with their prices that. Reported back that they couldnt because the agencys recordkeeping was so bad and varied, they could not actually study how the agency arrives at their numbers. Does that shock you . I almost feel like thats a trick question, senator. No, its not a trick question. Its a serious question. And now is the time to talk about it because we have new people coming in, and weve had a hearing already with the Civil Division to the corps of engineers. And they recognize changes have to be made. But not if we all sit around and keep quiet and dont talk about it. I think that you hit a strong point on the head there is a lot of information that is not available out there. And its something that we need to figure out and Work Together to do it. Yeah. Well, my time is expired. But thats something we need to address. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator. Senator whitehouse. Thank you, chairman. I appreciate the panel being here. Particular welcome to mr. Friedman. Rhode island has two ports that were investing in and proud of, quonset. Were the home of one of the worlds best ship servicing agencies. So were keenly interested in ports. And im interested in your take on what Sea Level Rise infrastructure impacts our ports are looking at. I think our ports are keenly interested in and concerned about Sea Level Rise and what they can do in partnership with local state and federal government to enhance resiliency, as we heard mr. Cochran speaking to earlier. You know, i think we would look toward this werda bill to increase our ability to work in innovative ways with the army corps of engineers. I think that you usually find that a lot of the new and interesting ideas tend to bubble up from those of white house are on the ground at our local ports and communities, and we need the ability to sit down with our Army Corps Districts and Work Together on those solutions. We are engaged in those discussions with the Buffalo District of the corps which oversees cleveland. Believe it or not, weve had some coastal resiliency issues in cleveland. Superstorm sandy did a tremendous amount of damage to our breakwater and other structures in our port. So were looking at ways to dredge material for example to fortify our port. Is it fair to say that the concern of americas ports about Sea Level Rise goes beyond the actual seashore itself, that you can raise piers and seawalls and so forth, but if the sea is infiltrating through for instance Water Systems and bubbling up behind, if its flooding access roads that are necessary to get goods in and out of the ports, those are matters of equal concern to the actual short line itself. Is that correct . No question, senator. I think our ports are literally on the front lines of this issue and theyre very concerned about the upland impacts if the Sea Level Rises al well as being inundated being right on the docks. There is no question our port are focused on that question, and i think theyre all working very hard to figure out how do we mitigate going forward. Misufner, youre here on all countieses, can you tell whats youre hearing from coastal counties about the infrastructure hazards and risks and problems and challenges that theyre seeing related to sea level prize storm surges and so forth. Well, its much even broader than Sea Level Rise and storm surges. Were definitely getting the flooding in the coastal counties. I also work very closely with our gulf states counties and parishes caucus, and especially with the hurricanes that have come through this past fall, theyre increasingly focusing on how to address those issues because the weather events have been getting more severe. And the population growth within those communities makes it even more essential that the communities can address these issues at the local level. So my my view on this is that this is a problem that coastal communities face, counties and municipalities, that very often those counties and those municipalities dont have a lot of resources to do the planning. I see your head nodding for record. Yes, good. Its also my view that a lot of the fema mapping has proven itself to be wildly inaccurate. And so so you have counties that are counting on the federal government for planning as to what Sea Level Rise and flood risk looks like, and theyre being given bad information. Which puts it, again, back on the community to try to reach its own better planning process, but without the resources, its really hard to ask a local community to take on a task like that. Is that a fair description of the problem as you see it as well . It is. Counties drive a large part of their income from property taxes and states set the limit of how we can even raise property taxes. So it sets an ugly cycle of how do we fund for something, how do we strengthen our local communities. And thats why the federal state partnership is so valuable to us. Well, ive got just a few seconds left. Let me just make one point to my colleagues. I think that we are beginning to address these werda issues, one of the areas in which we can become more efficient and more helpful to the army corps would be to try to find a good, honorable and transparent way for congress and this committee to be able to assert its own priorities in the process. It concerns me that we shovel projects in one side of the werda bill and we shovel money in the other side of the werda bill. And how the army corps of engineers connects that money to those projects is a giant black hole. And i think we need to fix that. I know weve been through a problem of earmarks that received a lot of justified criticism. Our response was to abandon this responsibility entirely. I think that was an overreaction, and that we can and should in this Committee Try to frame out an honorable transparent proper way for these priorities to be met under our supervision rather than just throw it off to the army corps bureaucracy. I hope that statement was not unwelcome and i appreciate the extra time. It was very welcome. Thank you very much, senator whitehouse. Senator wicker . Thank you. Mr. Friedman, lets talk about the Harbor Maintenance trust. And i notice in your testimony, you advocate full use of hmt revenues over a tenyear period. What weve been doing, as is pointed out, weve been taking in more hmt revenue and sort of setting it aside and making the deficit look better by not spending it for its intended purpose. If we take your recommendation and restore over a tenyear period the full use of these revenues, will that get us where we need to be in terms of meeting our funding needs . Thank you, senator wicker. It gets us part of the way there but not all of the way there if you look at the numbers that apa has submitted in the info graphic, and they can provide more detail we are calling for full spend every year of the revenues brought into the trust fund and spending the roughly 9 billion surplus that has been built up, as you just mentioned. And then on top of that, we would need additional moneys through an infrastructure bill to reach the 66 billion which we identify as the full need. So we would certainly be fully maintaining our harbors at that point if we fully spend the Harbor Maintenance trust fund, catching up with the backlog if we use the surplus. And then for some additional water site improvements such as deepening, which was mentioned earlier, some of our largest harbors for the larger ships, some of the big container ports. And then some critical landside multimodal connections using infrastructure dollars. We think that gets us to where we need to be as a nation. Okay. So its your hope that the president s infrastructure plan which should be outlined to us and to the public within a couple of weeks, or perhaps at least within a month, that that 1 trillion infrastructure plan will be the third step in getting us where we need to be to meet our needs . We hope so, senator, yes. Okay. And i hope so too. Now thank you for this chart. And senator carper or these graphics. Senator carper showed a bigger copy of this. But illustrative examples of port related investment needs. And i notice you have three rail projects, one being the mississippi rail relocation project and Marine Terminal project at pascagoula, mississippi. Thats the only city in the United States that rhymes with hallelujah. You might tuck that away as a fact to be learned today. Also, a cross harbor rail tunnel and a port arthur rail project. How are we doing in rail access to ports . And why arent we where we need to be . What have been some of the challenges in getting that rail to the ports . Okay, well, i think weve made Good Progress in the last 20 or 30 years or so improving a rail access to ports. Intermodality, or the whole concept of putting a container on to a train is not that old a concept. And so many of our ports had to be retrofitted with the kinds of rail connections that would be functional for them, the granddaddy of all those would be the alameda corridor project in southern california, which consolidated all the rail lines in a cut so as to eliminate grade crossings. Youve seen those sorts of projects on somewhat smaller scale at many of our ports. And thats been i think a good Public Private partnership between ports themselves and the federal government. But we do need more. Were seeing increased volumes to and from our ports. I think its particularly important for exports. Well tend to think about containers coming in through our ports. But where i am in cleveland we think a lot about exports. And we need those strong rail connections are from the hinterland into the ports in order to move exports which quite often are heavy and bulky products that we make here in the u. S. Thats why in that 66 billion, we have included those critical rail connections. In some cases its tunnel clearances. In some cases its rail bridges. Some cases its grade crossings, its more track in order to manage those trains as they move in and out of the ports. Thank you. Thank you. Quickly, mr. Cochran, this loss of land in louisiana is something im familiar with as a nextdoor neighbor. The truth of the matter is its im not advocating doing away with Flood Control. But its actually Flood Control over the centuries and decades that has caused the absence of sediment and the loss of land. That correct . One of the significant factor, yes, sir. Just the point i would make is no one would advocate the solution to the problem is to go back to the wild days that we used to have that caused the sediment. I parade y i appreciate you and your testimony thinking of innovative ways, different ways to address something that we cant change back to the way it used to be. And i appreciate that also, let me just say i understand that were all for streamlining permitting. You have some doubts about some of the suggestions at the other end of the table. Were going have to come together across the aisle on ways that we can streamline the permitting process. So im glad to see, to see a consensus among all five of our witnesses, i believe, that we need to address that. And i hope we can work on nuances that can be a happy solution and a winwin for all parties. I just would offer and i appreciate that. I think the key there is what you identified, which is sitting down together. Sitting down together. One of the things weve been lucky enough and maybe threatened enough in louisiana to do is to recognize that hurricanes and other things arent theyre completely nonpartisan. And we need to be too as we figure this out. So looking at how to make the system work better, how to make underlying protections do what theyre intended to do, but to do so in the most efficient way, thats a great conversation to have. Thank you, senator. Senator gillibrand . Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, mr. Ranking member. Im very grateful to you for holding this hearing. Its a very important work that our committee does. My state of new york has a wide range of diverse Water Infrastructure needs and challenges. We are a coastal state threatened by the impacts of Climate Change, coastal storms and Sea Level Rise. Were also a great lakes state, constantly challenged by aquatic Invasive Species like carp that have the potential to destroy our species if theyre not stopped from gaining a foothold in the great lakes basin. With eis rethe largest and busiest port on the east coast, which is essential to international commerce. And we have a number of small ports and harbors across our state that are important to the local economies and need to be properly maintained. We cannot address all of these challenges without a strong investment in the army corps. But funding is only part of it. We need to ensure we are investing our federal dollars so that we are more resilient in the face of these challenges. I was very disappointed that the Trump Administration chose to rescind the flood Risk Management standard implemented by the Obama Administration which required federally funded projects to incorporate best available and actional science on Climate Change and Sea Level Rise and build above the base Floor Elevation levels. If we are spending, as we are in the northeast, billions of dollars to build the infrastructure to protect our communities, it defies logic that we would leave taxpayers exposed to the types of catastrophic losses we saw after super storm sandy, and more recently hurricanes harvey and maria by not building to withstand the current and future flood risks. So to ms. Ufner, what are the consequences to counties and local governments and their taxpayers if we fail to properly assess risks, both current and future when planning to build in flood plains . Thank you, senator, for your question. Ultimately, counties are responsible for our Public Health and safety of our communities. And probably if you look at whats happened in Santa Barbara county, california within the last day with the flooding that is due from the wildfires, there is only limited things that you can do after a wildfire to address the risk. But it demonstrates that when floods happen, people die. Homes disappear, roads are gone, memories are gone. And this is something that local governments want to prevent, and they want to be there to help with their residents. Are we doing enough to ensure that we are adequately protecting ourselves and our assets from future storms and floods . And what could we be doing better . Its a combination approach there is a responsibility on the local governments. A lot of our local governments, though, they have the limited income and Technical Assistance to follow through with these projects. And thats where they really look to the army corps of engineers and other federal agencies to bring the Technical Assistance, the data, the modeling the communities can use. And weve been working with our counties on best practices that they can use in their own communities to build the resiliency at the local level. What else could we be doing . We just keep on going in the direction were doing. And the way of it is these are steps on the ladder that we can help the communities that are out there really being aggressive. Theyre our trend setters. And theyre the ones that we learn from on what may work in other communities. Thank you. To mr. Cochran, what needs to change in terms of army corps policies and procedures to allow for greater use of natural naturebased solutions s tmiti flood risks along our coastlines . One of the things i want to point out is this multiple lines of Defense System chart that we used early to illustrate the integration of hardened infrastructure and natural infrastructure is actually based on a chart that the corps put together following in its post sandy efforts as it did a comprehensive coastal study in the northeast. So i take that as both a positive sign that, you know, too, too often what we do is learn about these things after the fact. And this is a postsandy study, not a presandy study. One of the things we really need to encourage within the corps is to take the learns that have occurred in these postsandy situations and really make sure that they penetrate across the corps, across the various divisions, not just singular in one place so that all the areas both coastal and inland can get the benefit, clear benefit of this kind of thinking, this kind of an approach. Because from that comes actual information and data so you can do the kind of comparisons that will let you select the things that work best, not just take one old system, but integrate these things so they become not only protective but sustainable in the process. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator gillibrand. Senator ernst . Thank you, mr. Chair. A number of my coastal colleagues have mentioned the detriment to hurricanes and so forth. And i would just offer them the opportunity to come inland a little bit. Iowa has about a thousand miles of coastal setback in either direction. But regardless of those large scale effects that come from hurricanes, we do have Flooding Issues in iowa that occur on a much more regular basis than those 100year floods or 500year floods that are recorded out there. Senator whitehouse mentioned that black hole that exists within the army corps of engineers. You know we get the projects in one side. And as he said, the funding in from the other side. And i tend to agree with the senator in that there is a black hole, and we need Greater Transparency there. Part of that black hole i feel is the benefit to cost ratio. And and mr. Cochran, in your testimony, you encourage congress to direct the corps to modernize that bcr, the benefittocost ratio analyses because you believe they are often inaccurate. A priority of mine is to modernize the bcr metrics so that more communities, particularly our rural ones have an opportunity to get their projects funded. We have a flood mitigation project in cedar rapids, iowa, that was authorized by werda in 2014. It was mentioned for prioritization in werda in 2016. But has not received any funding due to the low bcr that results from iowas relatively low Property Values. And i know that that is that is true in other areas as well, and maybe mr. Cochran in louisiana too, because your Property Values are low also. Do you have any thoughts on how the bcr metrics could be modified so that project likes this flood mitigation project in cedar rapids have a better chance of receiving funding . One of the recommendations that we have is really a focus on making sure that you can in fact take account for the range of benefits that can come from projects when youre doing protection. And a lot of that has to do often with the benefits of wetlands, the benefits of setbacks, things like that that you are used to in your riverine situation that really dont get accounted for any benefits when you get into the cost benefit. Well, there is some land there. But they dont actually look at the benefits associated with it. These kind of benefits. So a true accounting for the benefits from natural infrastructure for the benefits of there really needs to be done. And it will end up benefitting these discussions that youre talking about. Because it actually gives a true picture, not one that just slanted towards an old way of doing things. Part of the challenge that i think a lot of people have had with these analyses too is a real lack of transparence it is. Its difficult understanding exactly where the numbers came from or how they got there and no real requirement that they be justified in a way that will allow people to actually engage in that conversation. So we think that transparency is a fundamental piece of this. Data transparency, real accounting for real benefits, those things together really can make a difference. That is too true. Again, going back to that black hole that senator whitehouse was referencing. So thank you. I think thats important. And i hope that we are taking a look at the bcr as we move forward. And, of course, ms. Carter, the army corp. Component of the program that was established by wrda in 2014 has yet to get off the ground. Thats the army corps portion. The epa has already implemented their portion. What are some of the challenges the corps is facing in implementing this program and at this current pace, how long will it take for the corps to catch up to where epa is . Thank you for question. Indeed the wifiy program for the corps has not been funded. And part of what has been going on is there is the corps nooz history with a loan or Loan Guarantee program. So developing the guidelines and understanding how will those projects be scored in terms of the risks to the government have been some of the primary challenges. So as basically as those issues get worked through with either congressional or administration involved in those discussions of how do you score the risk, as those progress, then funding could be provided and the corps could start providing these loan and Loan Guarantees which could assist with projects like flood levees where communities could potentially proceed on their own to be able to perform those projects. So those interest matinterest main ones to understand the scoring of the project. Would it be helpful since bca already has an established process, would it be helpful if the corps could determine those projects and then fund those through wfia and epa . Ive not looked at those as an option, but there i believe is some legislation throughout to that effect. We have a expert that covers the wfia program. And any questions for the record you would like to provide for us we would appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thank you, chair. Thank you. Chairman boozman . Thank you, mr. Chairman. I dont have a question for you, but we appreciate bcs. We appreciate all of your knowledge and crs in general. You all do a great job and probably arent thanked enough by us as we try and get things together. Give yourselves a big pat on the back. Those type of comments are what keeps us going. So thank you. We do appreciate you. Mr. Robinson, to capitalize on americas changing economy, its necessary that americas necessary Infrastructure Improvements must be made to our inland water waist aways and po. They have been working for years to deepen the river navigation so barges and boats can carry larger loads. I think about 40 greater load. So its very, very significant. Senator inhofe and i both understand and certainly we appreciate his leadership. But also the National Significance of a 12foot channel versus what we have now. And were going work really hard in wrda 2018 to try to get that accomplished. Can you explain why the 12foot channel would be a benefit . Well, as you said as you said, senator boozman not just for arkansas and oklahoma, but for country as a whole. Let me give you an example. And you know Scott Mcgeorge with pine bluff sand and gravel, operating a rock quarry there in pine bluff area. The closest rock quarry to new orleans in the country. And so Scott Mcgeorge and pine bluff sand and gravel werent able to compete when new orleans needed rock desperately. So as a nation, we paid more for that rock than we otherwise would have because we werent willing to deepen the channel. We started the channel. But we didnt complete it. We didnt go forward with it. Along that line, i have great concern in the sense as recently as 2016, bob portis expressed concern that the critical backlog on the mcarns was of that nature. That number has now ballooned to 143 million in less than two years. If we continue to kick the can down the road and to not address the critical backlog, talk about that. Talk about what how the effect of it, if we actually had to shut the system down. Again, not only for arkansas and oklahoma, but for the rest of the country. Also, according to the u. S. Army corps of engineer, 58 of locks and dams are past their life expectancy. Talk about if we can do some more things, the positive effect. The locks and dams on the mcarns are 47 years old. I realize that lox and dams on the rest of the system in the nation are older than that. But one of the reasons that the backlog of critical maintenance is growing at such an alarming rate is because were near tending of the 50year life that most projects like that have from an engineering standpoint. So were discovering new things every time we dewater a lock. And we do that quite often in order to make sure were keeping up with the maintenance that needs to be done. Unfortunately, the funds arent available to do the maintenance even when we know they need to be done. If the mcarns were shut down as a result of failure of the system in one way or another, then we have calculated that the cost in oklahoma would be 2 million a day. Thats a significant cost to shipment and Terminal Operators and to the nation. Its just not a good way to do business. These projects were justified on expectations that the benefits would exceed the costs. They have done that. There are significant earnings to the government, to the federal government that go into the treasury. Its not a matter of not enough benefits and revenues. Its a matter of using those revenues for other purposes. Mr. Friedman, a top priority for the chairman and Ranking Member for the entire committee is passing the wrda bill. We went through a period from 2007 to 2014 where we had a gap. 2014, 2016, weve gotten back on track. Can you talk about what it means to have certainty with having a wrda bill every two years to address these problems . Sure. Thank you, senator. Yes, its critically important for the port industry, the maritime industry to have a wrda reauthorized every two years on a regular cycle. Because adjustments need to be made to the new construction start authorizations as projects are designed and then being built that as we know the corps, army corps has been plagued with, you know, projects that string out for many, many years, adding costs. It hurts the competitiveness of the nation if we cant complete these harbor improvement projects, complete these deepenings. So a gap of seven years, as you mentioned, is very, very harmful. It also givers us an opportunity to address the issue that was brought up in terms of transparency and sort of opening up decisionmaking process at the corps, the socalled black box which we think would be good for all stakeholders to be able to have input to modernize the benefit cost ratio, to make sure were funding the best projects for the nation. So apa is strongly in favor of getting back to the regular order on wrda. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator boozman. Senator carper . Thank you, sir. A question for you, ms. Ufner, dealing with stakeholder involvement. I think we all realize that collaboration with the army corps of engineers is essential to solving our Water Resources challenges, which is many. This collaboration helps to limit the cost of missed opportunities, promotes better planning, provides better transparency, results in more fiscally and environmentally sound projects. A question for you, if i could. And how can the army corps adapt its efforts to promote integrated planning in management . Please. And youre talking integrated planning from the concept of Environmental Protection agency, but using it also within the army corps of engineers . Yes. To and basically, how to its a big issue for us with water issues whether in the corps or the army corps to address clean water act issues in a holistic way. And that essentially includes potentially i dont want to say bundling projects, but its a way for us to look at what is the most important thing. And were still meeting our Clean Air Act goals in the corps or epa, but we can do it in a much more affordable way and thats something that nika has been supporting within the realm of the Clean Air Act. Thanks. I want to go back to something i said earlier in my opening statement. And im going to ask you to join me in an airplane, go up to about 30,000 feet. And then id like for you to just react to what im going to repeat that i said earlier. As the 2017 Hurricane Season illustrated our nations needs. I spent time in puerto rico, i spent time in the virgin islands. I spent time in houston and saw the kind of devastation that were going to pay for a long time, a long, long time. Illustrated our nation needs to be a resilient one ready for the next storm or flood or drought event because it is coming. In fact, just this week, noaa estimated that the total costs for extreme weather and climate events exceed 300 billion, which is a new annual record for u. S. So its clearly not a record of if our next extreme weather events are coming but when. Together the corpss navigation together the corps navigation in flood Risk Management accounted for more than 70 of the agencys annual solo works appropriations. But the corps has jurisdiction as we know over any number of critical Civil Works Programs including hydro power, they include recreation, they include Emergency Management and water supply. Unfortunately, the mid 1980s federal funding for new project construction had begun to decline steadily. With this trend, the corpss inactions have shifted to operations, to maintenance, to rehabilitation of existing infrastructure. And a backlog of deferred maintenance has continued to grow ever since. As a result, much of the corps infrastructure is now exceeding its useful life plan. If youre sitting on this side of the dais, as members of this committee, what would you be doing about it . And well start with you, steve, please. I think that the situation you described is incredibly debilitating to the people who work at the corps of engineers. They are, many of them, quite skilled, quite talented, quite able, and yet they the vision of what it could be and what they need to be is completely overwhelmed by a backlog of things that theyre not getting done. And so it does seem to me that with its essential to find a way to overcome the backlog, not by doing all the projects. Frankly, thats not going to work. But by creating a new vision that actually does we talk a lot in louisiana about getting ahead of the next storm, the same way you talked about it in your opening statement. Well, thats critical because otherwise youre always playing catchup. Thats what the corps is doing now. Thats all they can do is play catchup. We should i dont actually mean this, but we should either give them a real job to do or we should just get rid of them so that because the way it is right now, mr. Robinson said earlier everybody has learned how to do more with less. Thats just business as usual. If you do that long enough you give up on what you really need to do. I think thats what the corps has done. All right. Thank you for that. Ms. Carter, please . Crs has no opinions or reactions. But one of the topics that may be of concern in the future is dam and levee safety issues. The corps should be coming out in the next few months with reports related to some of the Infrastructure Investment needs in that area. Including related to eye walls, which are one of the pieces of infrastructure that failed in new orleans and contributed to the cost to the federal government for Emergency Response and recovery. Figuring out how aging infrastructure like that fits into the infrastructure package in the long run will potentially help or hinder the governments ability to manage its risk. Well, were going to ask you to just react to what i said earlier, and just repeat it, please. Absolutely, senator. You know, with my aapa hat on, i would repeat what ive said which is our ports wants to see the continued Movement Toward full use and spend of the Harbor Maintenance trust fund. That would make a tremendous difference for us, and we are grateful for the progress that congress has made and youve made in that direction recently. The numbers are remarkable from where we were five or six years ago. And then we would, again, submit that our waterways, our Water Infrastructure needs to be viewed very high priority in any upcoming infrastructure legislation thats passed out of congress. And then just speaking for myself, if i were on your side, in your shoes, i sort of think back to when the army corps, the days when the army corps was building some of the greatest public works projects known to man. The panama canal, our great dams and other waterways and waterworks. And i think we need to get back to sort of that spirit of we can do this. We have to fund it, but we can do it. We can address these issues. And i do think sort of share the view that without enough funding, there is not much the corps can do. Theyre fighting this backlog perpetually. But i think we have to start thinking bigger, on a bigger scale to address these problems and make that a national priority. All right, thank you. Julie . Thank you, senator. Actually two, thoughts on that well, several thoughts there is such a backlog within the corps, and the need within the communities are so huge there are communities throughout that would love to partner with the corps on projects, but there is no funding. They dont meet the cost benefit analysis. And the Technical Assistance that the corps offers is so valuable. Having said that, there is a lot of challenges within the corps with the processes, the bureaucracy, complex requirements that make it very difficult, even if counties do want to partner with them, that they may go to other federal agencies first because it may take ten years through the corps as opposed to seven years somewhere else. All right. Thanks. Last word, scott . To beat a dead horse. No, go ahead. The Civil Works Program in the country for many, many, many years has delivered significant benefits to the country. And revenues to the treasury. Revenues far in excess of the cost of the program. Its time to reinvest some of those earnings back into the system instead of using up the principle, the capital that was originally invested. All right, thanks. Good words of wisdom. Thank you, all. This has been a good hearing, and we appreciate very much what youve added to it. Thank you, all. A couple of quick questions. Im going to point to you, mr. Friedman, when you talked about the days of the panama canal. The path between the seas. Ive read it. They comment about the time, the complexity, the bureaucracy, all of those things and how long. The title is the path between the seas the panama canal it was a remarkable achievement. It was over 100 years ago. Thanks ffr bringing that up. Several projects sdp programs passed in the Water Infrastructure improvement for the nation act. Theyre important to reduce flooding. Ice jam prevention. You mention mitigation pilot program. In your view how important is preventing flooding to the Economic Health of Rural Communities. To reiterate what we mentioned before, it is immeasurable. Communities are responsible counties in particular are responsible for health and Public Safety. And we take many measures to ensure that our public is protected. Were the first on the scene of any emergency. Flooding disasters. And when they result in deaths, and or damage to our economies ultimately impacts the national economy. So its huge that were able to address this long term and figure out the steps that we need to get there in the end. Together. One of the things i didnt mention yet in terms of i have continued to advocate maintaining this. To help inform agencies like the core as to Flooding Issues of drought as well. Is there more that can be done to better predict flooding and drought. This is more that can be done. There needs to be more available data. That is reliablely updated. We hear this a lot about the light our data used for nfip or also Flood Elevation data. That is not readily available and or updated. For communities to make the most efficient decisions in their community they need the most up to date information. Thank you. Thank all of you. Some members may ask senator. I have a question. I wont ask it now. I want to flag if for mr. Dock ran. If it ill submit the question for the record. One of the things that is important to a lot of us on the east coast from maine to florida is the issue of cost benefit ratio with respect the beach renourishment and the dune systems are protected. Well send that to you and take a good look at that. Members maybe submitting written questions to each and every one of you. I ask you follow up quickly for the record. The hearing record will remain open for two weeksment i want to thank you for being here. The hearing is adjourned. Thursday on cspan the Senate Foreign Relations Committee looks into u. S. Policy in syria after the defeat of isis. Theyll hear from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Beginning at 10 00 a. M. Eastern. The cspan bus continues its 50 capitol tour this month. With stops in columbia, atlanta and montgomery. On each visit well speak with state officials. Follow the tour and join us on wednesday at 9 30 a. M. Eastern. For our stop in north carolina. On our washington journal guest is north carolina