Transcripts For CSPAN3 Firearm Regulations Background Checks 20180102

Also on the calendar, this years state of the Union Address from President Trump before a joint session of congress. As always, you can watch the house live on cspan and see the senate on our companion network cspan 2. Next testimony from officials with the atf and the air force on proposed firearm regulations. And updating the criminal background check system. The measure proposed banning bump stock and similar devices. Senator Dianne Feinstein is the Ranking Member of the Senate Judiciary committee. She introduced the legislation. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for attending todays hearing. We gather here today in the wake of violent acts by an evil man in las vegas and southern springs and those two places get all the attention, but theres lesser number of people have died other places as well. Today with the help of our witnesses, we hope to learn more about how those tragedies might have been prevented. And we will discuss various proposals on preventing similar tragedies in the future. Then a shooter used bump stocks to fire more than 1100 rounds into a crowd of those attending a Country Music concert. The shooting lasted only ten minutes. The bump stocks enabled this person to fire ammunition as fast as if he had used an automatic weapon. 58 people died. Our laws prohibit the manufacture machine guns for decades and decades that has been the case. And greatly restrict their sale. During the Obama Administration they determined that bump stocks are legal. A number of member of congress recently rote the atf asked it to revision the decision. Two days ago the atf announced it was changing its mind and issued advanced notice of proposed rule making that would apply the statutory definition of machine gun to bump stocks and similar devices. It will provide the public and the firearms industry to submit formal comments on the rule making. We do not have any proposed regulatory text before us today, but the committee deserves to know why the atf decided that its classification of bump stocks during the Previous Administration was incorrect. Its also important for the committee to understand how atf is now proposing to interpret the statutory definition of machine gun. Under current case law, the courts may give deference to the agencys interpretation of statutes governing firearms. Depending on the interpretation, Congress Might wish to weigh in. Today we will also have a discussion about the National Institute criminal background check system commonly known by the acronym nix. Nix is the system used by those licensed to sell firearms to quickly determine whether a buyer is eligible to buy whatever he wants to buy. Nix background checks are supposed to prevent prohibitive persons like convicted felons, domestic abusers and those who have been determined to have Certain Mental Health problems from purchasing firearms. Every year tens of thousands of prohibitive persons are turned away from purchasing weapons. But for nix to keep weapons out of the hands of dangerous individuals, federal and state agencies must swiftly and must accurately report information on prohibitive persons. Unfortunately, this does not always happen as it should. The Sutherland Springs shooting was carried out by an individual who should not have been able to purchase a firearm. While in the air force, devin kelly was courtmartialed for Domestic Violence. He served prison time and was discharged from the air force for bad conduct. But because his information was not entered into nix system as a law requires. Kelly was able to purchase four weapons, including the weapon he used in the Sutherland Springs shooting. Kelly killed 26 people attending sunday services at the Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs and wounded 20 more. In the days following the shooting, the air force acknowledged its role in failing to report to the fbi. The air forces failure to comply with nix reporting standards is inexcusable. But i do appreciate the way the air force has moved to accept responsibility for their mistakes and i look forward to learning more about the steps the air force is taking to make sure that every prohibited person is reported to the fbi. Reporting issues are not limited to the air force, however. Reports on nix in 1997 and 2015 showed severe reporting problems across the department of defense. A report released just two days ago shows that from 2015 to 2016, more than 30,000 of convictions in the department of defense were not reported to the fbi. Other states can also improve their reporting. I was pleased to hear attorney general Jeff Sessions ordered a federal review by the fbi and atf to ensure that all federal agencies are reporting all required information into nix. As far as states are concerned, some progress in nix reporting has been made in recent years. Especially in areas of reporting Mental Health records. But some states, even those represented by members of our committees these states reported fewer records to nix on a per capita basis than most of the oh states. More improvement can be made such as reporting Domestic Violence offenses. It is clear that this is a systemic problem and that there are many thousands of abusers who are not in the nix system, but absolutely should be in that system. States should insure that all records submitted to nix are complete and up to date. All of us wish that the recent tragedies in texas and nevada would have been avoided. Nothing we do today in the weeks to come will restore lives from those that were lost in the two cities. We owe it to the victims of those shootings to seriously consider what we should do as policymakers. As legislatureos that is our duty. One of the most powerful tools we possess is legislation. Legislative power carefully particularly where it involves the liberties of our republic. The Supreme Court made it very clear that laws that concern the Second Amendment right to keep and bare arms is subject to scrutiny. So new laws affecting firearms and firearms accessories must be tailored to address government interest. We have laws and regulations on the books that require reporting and that regulate automatic weapons. The atf has just issued a notice that they intend to prom gait a new regulation about bump stocks based on existing law. Before we pass new laws, we should make sure that our current laws are being effectively followed and enforced. We should also make sure that existing programs designed to ensure nix reporting compliance are fully funded and effectively run. I look forward to this hearing and answers to some of these questions. And once again, as i will thank you again because witnesses go to a lot of work to appear here, thank you for what you have done to make this hearing and bring light on this subject. Senator feinstein. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding the hearing and allowing senator cortez from the state of nevada so much affected by this issue to testify here this morning. It is very much appreciated. Two months ago we witnessed the deadliest mass shooting in las vegas. It was on october 1st, a sole gunman sprayed over 1100 rounds into a crowd of concert goers from the 32nd floor in a hotel room in a matter of minutes. The attack left 58 people dead and over 500 injured. Witnesses describe the scene as a war zone. Think about that. A war zone at a music concert. This was conducted by one 64yearold man with a vast arsenal of weapons. How did he exact such devastation within minutes . He had at least, i understand, 23 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition and at least 12 of something called a bump. Stock. Bump stocks allow a gunman with a semiautomatic weapon to mimic automatic gunfire. With a bump stock device attached, semiautomatic weapons can fire up to 700 rounds per minute. Id like to task you to turn your attention to the screens to a video clip that shows how these devices work. [ gunshots ] machine guns and guns with automatic fire are already banned under federal law. Bump stocks are not. The National Firearms act was enacted in 1934 to strictly regulate machine guns. It was passed in response to the st. Valentines day massacre in 1929 when thompson machine guns called tommy guns, were used in a chicago mass shooting by mobster gang members. The law heavily regulated machine guns but the law was updated in 1986 to ban all future automatic weapons from private possession. Theres no reason to believe that this ban should not also be applied to bump stock devices and other similar devices. While some have argued that the atf can ban or regulate these devices under existing law, the atf has repeatedly stated that bump stocks cannot be regulated because they do not fall within the Legal Definition of a machine gun. We introduced a straight forward bill to fix this. To street bump stocks and other devices like machine guns specifically the bill bans, quote, the import, sale, manufacture, transfer or possession of a trigger crank, bump device or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment or accessory thats designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire from a semiautomatic rifle. Thats what the bill actually says. Several Witnesses Today including police chief tom manger, the president of the Major Cities Police Chiefs Association, will discuss how bump stock devices put us all at risk. The Witnesses Today will also discuss this despicable attack that occurred a month after las vegas at a Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, texas. There a convicted domestic abuser, who was able to pass an fbi background check and obtain four guns, brutally murdered 26 people with victims ranging from 18 months old to 77 years old. I understand one was a pregnant woman with a boy child. It was an act of pure evil. We were all devastated and infuriated to find out that the the fbi background check missed the gunman. He should never have been allowed to get those guns. The air force failed to provide the fbi background check system with records indicating he assaulted his wife and infant stepchild while in the air force. And i must say that i had a very fine call from the secretary of the air force yesterday and she has taken, i think, very effective action, which i think shell outline later this morning. So this is all unacceptable. I understand that we need to look forward to the future. I also understand that it was almost five years ago to the day that america witnessed the tragic shooting of elementary children and their teachers at newtown, connecticut. And mr. Chairman, i just want to take this opportunity before i end to acknowledge the fact that there are large numbers of people here today in this audience who have been is affected by gun violence. So i would like to ask that they stand and i would like to recognize the representatives from the brady campaign, the Newtown Action alliance, moms demand action, Gabrielle Giffords and mark kellys group, the center for American Progress and the coalition to stop gun violence and the National Task force to end sexual and Domestic Violence. If those representatives are here, if you would stand please. Wed like to give you a round of applause and thank you for attending this hearing. [ applause ] thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Thank you for attending. Everybody for attending, but those that have been felt the tragedies particularly. We now turn to the senator from nevada that will speak because of the tragedy that happened in her state and any view she wants to give us. Then well hear from senator cornyn and both senators from texas. Well do that and go to our second panel. Youre our first panel so please go ahead. Thank you for holding this hearing and for allowing me the opportunity to testify. Our subject today is difficult, but it is also incredibly important. On october 1st, 2017, my hometown where i was born and raised in las vegas experienced a tragedy. 58 innocent people were murdered and more than 500 were injured after a gunman rained down fire at the route 91 harvest festival. This event now has a sad distinction of being the worst mass shooting in modern american history. The human cost of this atrocious crime is is incalculable. Those who survived must not only heal from physical wounds but cope with the mental scars. As members of the Senate Judiciary committee, you are in a unique position to take the first steps to end these senseless massacres. I ask the senators of this committee to be brave and do whats right for the victims and survivors of las vegas, Sutherland Springs, sandy hook, aurora and countless communities that want to see common sense reforms. I will never forget the stories i heard walking through our hospitals and meeting with victims and our first responders. Entire emergency room and hallway floors stained with blood. A Recovery Room and one of our hospitals turned into a makeshift morgue. Victims phone ringing continuously with calls from her father who would soon learn she would never be coming home. Theres one life story cut short for each of the 58 people kill ed that night. We have come to learn theres stories of sacrifice, courage and love. We have also learned the thousands of stories from those in the crowd who did not hesitate to help others. They are our true heroes. Stories like that of heather who is here today and youll hear from, but i also want to recognize two other survivors of the october 1st shooting who are here. Lives were saved because stranger helped stranger. There were helpers despite receiving a gunshot wound to the neck, he saved the lives of 30 people by leading them out of the venue and aiding them in taking cover. Other helpers like tammie, an iraq war veteran, stayed behind to help victims on the ground. She used her nursing experience to triage those immobile because of their injuries. Despite her best efforts, she couldnt save one young woman and had the heartbreaking task of telling a mother that her daughter was dead. Tammie said, ill never forget that girls face. I had to tell the mom that her daughter had gone. As a lifelong las vegan, i have never seen such a profound Community Response as i saw in the hours, days and weeks after the shooting. I continue to be amazed at the strength and spirit that will help us move forward. Following this terrible event, i have focused on working with my colleagues on reforms that would stop tragedies like this from happening again. As members of this committee, the mass shooting in my hometown was made more lethal because of a firearm accessory referred to as a bump stock. As you have seen, this is a device designed to turn a semiautomatic rifle into a deadlier weapon. I welcome the testimony today on these accessories. I believe what we hear today will confirm that these devices should be kept off our streets. I am proud to cosponsor senator feinsteins automatic act, a bill to outlaw bump stocks. I believe we must pass this legislation so the law is clear. Bump stocks do not belong in our country. We cannot and should not wait to do this through a lengthy rulemaking progress that could take years. The victims of the october 1st massacre and all americans need action now. I also welcome a discussion on the ways we can improve the National Instant criminal background system. Our wounds from las vegas had not yet healed when we learned of another terrible shooting in Sutherland Springs, texas. The tragic event drove home that e we must reevaluate our background check system so those who should not have a gun cannot buy one. I am proud to cosponsor the fix nix act to place tighter protocols on government, states and localities to ensure the crucial information of purchasers is uploaded into the database. I hope the system today will inform our work on this important legislation. As a gun owner myself, i understand the importance of our Second Amendment rights. Hundreds of thousands of lawabiding people own guns. Its part of the culture of our state. But my constituents also but my constituents also understand that there are common sense steps we can take to keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of criminals. This hearing is an important first step to making meaningful change. I look forward to working with the members of this committee on the next steps we can take to make america safer. Every day i think of the victims and survivors of the Las Vegas Shooting and every day i try to honor their legacy. Thank you for the opportunity to share their stories today. Thank you very much. We usually dont ask questions of our colleagues, so youre free to go if you want to. Senator cornyn . Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate you and the Ranking Member getting us together on this topic. Texas suffered its own tragedy on november 5th when a deranged gunman shot and killed 26 people worshipping at the first. Baptist church in Sutherland Springs. As senator cruz and i learned, when we went down to Sutherland Springs issue the gunman shot through the walls of the church while people were worshipping inside. Then entered a side door to shoot the wounded in the head and otherwise end their lives. It was a horrible, horrific experience. We need to recognize that were it not for the heroic actions of two private citizens there in Sutherland Springs, even more bloodshed and more deaths would have occurred. He was an nra firearms instructor who heard the gunshots at the church and ran a block away along with his rifle and fired on the shooter and forced him to flee wounding him twice. And with the help of a neighbor driving past the church, they chased down the shooter and made sure it ended. Were holding this hearing asking what to do about these horrific events. I personally have gotten a little tired of the statements following this tragedy. We need to do something. E we need to do something. I think its pretty clear particularly when it comes to fixing our broken background check system what that something is. And if it we do that something, it will save lives. And every day we let the current disfunction in the background check system continue lives are in jeopardy. So i hope we will do something. But that that something will make a difference and save lives. We can do it. I think its important what the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms is doing to reevaluate the legality of bump stocks. I share many of the concerns that have been expressed. We learned in Sutherland Springs that the shooter had a significant criminal history of Domestic Violence and Mental Illness that should have prevented him from purchasing firearms. He simply lied when he purchased these firearms from a federally licensed firearms dealer. But because the information had not been uploaded it wasnt available to prevent him from purchasing these guns. I appreciate the sons. They recognize what a problem this is. Its unacceptable when you look across the United States department of defense. And the failure thats required information in the background check system. If anything good comes out of this tragedy, it will be that we finally fix on a bipartisan basis this broken background check system. I believable in the Second Amendment. I believe we each have an individual right to keep and bear arms. And legal gun. Owners they can help protect the community when the police are not immediately available. But theres no excuse for not enforcing current law. It could have avoided the tragedy at Virginia Tech when a person was adjudicated mentally ill. That was not uploaded into the system by virginia and he got a firearm and we know what happened after that. So i am pleased that following this tragedy in Sutherland Springs, we have decided to do something on a bipartisan basis. There are 25 cosponsors of the fix nics act. It has one objective and one objective only. To make sure that federal and state agencies are complying with the current law. I, for one, never want to have to look a mother or a father or a brother or a sister or husband or wife in the face and say, yes, we have could have acted to prevent a tragedy but we didnt. We didnt do our job. Its supported by a number of groups across the political spectrum from groups like the nra and National Shooting sports foundation, Law Enforcement groups like the fraternal order of police and the National Sheriffs association and Domestic Violence groups. So i want to thank my colleagues, all of my colleagues for joining me in this effort. This is something that will save lives. Thank you for holding this hearing and highlighting the problems that we have and what solutions we have available to us to fix the broken background check system and save lives. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I was in Sutherland Springs the day after the shooting. I stood in that sanctuary where over 450 bullets had been fired. Pews overturned, shattered glass, pools of blood, as those who had come that sunday morning to worship hid in fear and terror while a deranged lunatic walked down the center aisle of a small country sanctuary and systemically executed every man, woman and child he saw with a rifle shot to the head. Shooting as young as 18 months old. I spent time with the pastor and his wife who lost their 14yearold daughter, holding them, crying with them, praying with them. Spent time with the victims. One individual lost eight members of his family including his parents and wife and unborn child. One little girl who is 7 saw two of her siblings murdered right in front of her. Heidi and i have a 7yearold daughter at home. I dont know how that precious girl moves on from that tragedy. One of the shooting victims when i visited him in the hospital at Brooks Army Medical center had a ventilator on, his arm was shot up but he could write with his left hand. He wrote in scraggly text, dont blame god. This is evil. We saw the face of evil in Sutherland Springs. Its the most horrific thing i have seen in my life. We also at the same time saw incredible bravery. Steven willerford, a neighbor who lived a block away. His daughter called him and said someone is shooting at the church. Steven ran to his gun safe and pulled out his rifle, an ar15, and he ran a block to the church barefooted, didnt bother to put on his shoes. He sheltered behind a pickup truck. The shooter was still in the church and executing people. He had his rifle pointed at one woman. When steven engaged him and brought him outside the church, what proceeded was a gunfight. The shooter fired repeatedly at willerford. I stood by the pickup truck where he sheltered. Behind him the house had bullet holes in the walls and windows. Steven was an nra rifle instructor. He shot the shooter twice, once in the side and once in the leg. The shooter threw down his rifle, jumped in the car and sped off. Steven waved down a man who he didnt know and said Somebody Just shot up the church. He jumped in the truck with him and the two of them followed the shooter and called 911 were speak. Ing to police directing where the shooter was. The shooter pulled over and took his own life. The day after the shooting i spoke with steven. Hes a humble, simple man. Hes a plumber. Media has descended upon him. Hes not interested in the Media Attention at all. What he said that next day, he said, look, im not a hero. I dont know why people are using words like that. He said i was scared out of my mind. I was terrified. My response, i said, mr. Willerford, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is acting in the face of fear. And ill tell you what a half dozen Law Enforcement agents told me that day on monday and then i was back there all day wednesday of that week. They said the same thing. Had that individual citizen not engaged, not risked his life, many more people would have been murdered that day. Now congress in the wake of this natural asks what can we do. I can tell you what multiple survivors of Sutherland Springs said to me. Over and over again they volunteered, the answer is not gun control. One woman, a mom whose son was in surgery. We all had our guns. We just left them in the car. We left them in the car out of respect for the church. If any one of us had brought our guns in, this madman would have been stopped. The answer, i believe, is not in restricting lawabiding citizens. Lawabiding citizens whose heroism saved lives that day, the answer is stopping criminals and madmen from getting guns. The thing that is infuriating is this shooter it was illegal for this shooter to have a firearm. Existing federal law it was illegal. The reason he had a firearm is the federal government screwed up. In 2013 the chairman and i joined together in introducing legislation. Voted on in the floor of the senate, got the most bipartisan votes of any of the comprehensive legislation voted on. A majority of the senate voted for grassleycruz. 5248. What did it do . It directed the federal agencies go through, review criminal convictions and get them in the next database. Make sure the agencies have complied. If it had passed, the air force should have caught this conviction and reported it to the database. It also directed the department of justice prosecute the felons and fugitives who try to illegally buy firearms. If a felon comes in and lies and tries to illegally buy a firearm, put him in jail. In april of 2016 this shooter went into an academy, lied on the form, purchased a gun, and if grassleycruz had passed, he should have been prosecuted, put in jail and if it he was in jail, he never would have murdered anyone in Sutherland Springs. We need to stop criminals from get. Get. Ing guns. Thank you, my colleagues. Will the four people on the first panel come forth. Before you sit down, i would like to enter an oath and then i will introduce you. Do you each ill wait a minute. Do you each affirm that the testimony youre about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . Each have affirmed. Please be seated. I would like to introduce you before you testify. We have dr. Heather wilson, 24th secretary of the air force. Shes responsible for the affairs of that department including organizing, training equipment, providing for welfare of nearly 660 active duty guard, reserve is and civilian forces. Dr. Wilson is a graduate of the air force academy doctored from university of oxford. This was followed by a distinguished career in the United States air force. Thank you for serving your country in that capacity. From 98 to 2002 she served as a member of the u. S. House of representatives representing new mexico. Mr. Thomas brandon has decades of experience in Law Enforcement. He currently serves as acting director of bureau of alcohol and firearms. Been at the agency since 89. Mr. Brandon has been part of the Senior Leadership at atf since 2011 when he was selected as deputy to director while serving as special agent in charge of Phoenix Field Office throughout his time at atf hes also served as chief of the National Academy as well as a number of other positions throughout the country. Mr. Douglas lindquist serves as assistant director for the fbi criminal Justice Information service division. The arm of the fbi that overseas the nics program. Hes been in his position since march 2017. Hes been with the fbi since joining as a special agent in 97. His experience in the fbi has taken him all over the world, including being a member of the Rapid Deployment team in africa, legal london and supervisor middle east unit of International Terrorism operation in counterterrorism section. Mr. Glen fine is the acting Inspector General for the department of defense. A role hes held since january 10th, 2016. In this position hes responsible for detecting waste, fraud and abuse as well as promoting accountability for the entire department of defense. Prior to being active, mr. Fine was named as the department of defense principle departmenty Inspector General. And we all know him because he previously served as Inspector General doj for 11 years. I think i didnt introduce you this way, but were going to go this way. Your entire statement will be put in the record in the extent to which you can do it in five minutes, i never cut anybody off at exactly five minutes, but when you see the red light, try to summarize. Thank you, mr. Wilson. Thank you, mr. Chairman. My full statement will be in the record but id like to summarize a few remarks to open. What happened in Sutherland Springs was absolutely awful. A mass murder of people gathered to pray. The morning after the shooting in Sutherland Springs, the chief of staff and i directed the rapid investigation to find out what happened, why, and correct it. It was clear very early that mr. Kellys criminal history was not reported and it should have been. In the week since, our review has determined that the breakdown in reporting was not limited to this case and it was not limited to this detachment at the air force base. The actions that we have taken since then include steps to add steps to Case Management for both the office of special investigations and also the air force Security Forces. So that cases cannot be closed just at the local detachment. That higher headquarters must also check off the fingerprint records had been filed. A third check has been added that when the file is actually archived, the file is checked again to make sure that the fingerprints have been put on record. We have also added a requirement that the person working the case, the case investigating officer not only has to file the fingerprints, they have to check the database to ensure that the fingerprints have been properly recorded and received by the database and print out a screen shot or a record of that check and file it in the air force records so that anyone looking at that record knows that the proper steps have been taken. The air force has updated its training requirements and on the 17th of november we had a worldwide standdown for all offices of the office of special investigation for training and reminding of what the requirements are under dod and air force policy. The Security Forces in the air force by squadron are doing similar training. After the 2015 report showed that there were problems with respect to reporting a number of steps were taken by air force osi to correct deficiencies. They were in sufficient. One of the things not done was a review of the cases and the database maintained by the air force to ensure that previous cases not properly reported were properly reported. We have stood up two task forces of 30 people each, one in the Security Forces and one in the office of special investigations to go through the air force database that goes back to 2002 to ensure that any case that was not properly reported at the time is properly reported. I wanted to thank the fbi and the department of justice for working with us and ensuring that we can make those updates expeditiously. I also wanted to comment brief ly on accountability and disciplinary action. There are some things that i cannot say today, and i know many of you may have questions about accountability or disciplinary action. When all of the facts are compiled and theres a final report, commanders with the advice of counsel will make decisions about any accountability or disciplinary action. I have to be careful not to prejudge the facts in a way that would amount to undue command influence by the secretary of the air force. There are still things that we have to to do. We believe it will take between four and five months to complete the database review that we have directed by these two task forces. We know that air force Security Forces we need more electronic fingerprint machines so every detachment of Security Forces has the modern tools that will make it more likely that fingerprints will be accepted. We have directed annual audits for compliance including one within the next 12 months to ensure that fixes have been made and are taking hold. We have also directed a 30day review by the chief data officer of the United States air force. One of the factors in this situation is that were dealing with four government agencies, no less than ten databases, and five title codes. It is a largely manual system and it is labor intensive. Wed like to know from our chief data officer whether there are ways to improve this system electronically. We are also feeding information to the Inspector Generals review, which is looking at the department as a whole and cooperating with our colleagues providing information on what we have learned to our sister services. And finally, we have asked the air force Inspector General not just to look at reporting in this way, but what other kinds of reports are required and to make sure that we are complying with those as well. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Now mr. Brandon. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member feinstein and distinguished senators on the Senate Judiciary committee. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before you today. On behalf of the men and women of atf, i extend heartfelt condo loans to the friends and family of those killed, injured and survived the horrendous attacks in las vegas and Sutherland Springs, texas, and survivors of all forms of the firearms violence that plagues too many of our communities every day. All of the men and women of atf are aware of the need for constant vigilance fulfilling our mission to combat Violent Crime. Although we are a small agency, we embrace the challenge of our mission and strive to the best partner possible to our colleagues. Delivers investigative and technical experience that drive results. Atf is the federal agency primarily responsible for enforcing the provisions of the federal firearms laws, particularly the act of 1934 and the gun control act of 1968. Atfs authority to regulate firearms is limited by the terms of those statutes and they do not empower atf to regulate parts or accessories designed to be used with firearms. Atf to regulate under these statutes the device in question must fit within the gun controls acts definition of a firearm and fall within one of the specific categories of weapons defined in the National Firearms act including machine guns. Atf does not have direct authority to regulate or ban bump stocks. By applying the definitions in the statutes. If a device does not fall within those statutory definition, atf has no authority to regulate the device. The horrible las vegas massacres focus congressional and public attention on specific types of firearms accessories socalled bump stocks. Bump stocks are devices that are designed to facilitate a shooting technique known as bump firing. Bump firing is a technique in which the shooter uses the Recoil Energy of a semiautomatic firearm to accelerate the rate of fire by bumping the guns stock off the shooters shoulder or other item to reengage the trigger more quickly. But the goal of mimicking automatic fire. Some shooters are able to accomplish this technique without using any device or accessory. In 2008 atf received a series of classification requests for bump stock devices wp pef classified most to be a firearm accessory not subject to regulation either because the devices shot only one bullet or pull of the trigger or the devices did not appear to initiate a full automatic firing cycle. In the aftermath of the tragedy in las vegas, members of congress, including many on this committee and the general public have asked atf to reexamine its past decisions on bump stocks to determine whether existing federal law can be interpreted to include these type of devices within the definition of machine gun. Atf and the department of justice have undertaken a review of options. I have directed atf to initiate the process of promulgating a federal regulation interpreting the definition of machine gun to clarify whether certain bump stock devices fall within that investigation. Publication of this anprm will provide the public and the industry to submit comments that will help inform atfs decision regarding further steps in the rule making process. I fully appreciate the desire of the public and congress that this process move quickly. I assure the committee that atf will work tirelessly to complete the process as soon as possible. I am honored to represent atf today and to share this panel with secretary wilson, acting Inspector General fine. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Brandon. Now glenn fein. Thank you for inviting me to testify about the d. O. D. s reviews regarding the submission of criminal history for entry into databases. I have appeared before this committee in a prior capacity. Today i appear before you again in a different capacity as the head of the d. O. D. Oig which i have led since january 2016. Unfortunately this hearing arises from the tragic events of november 5th, 2017 when an individual devin kelly killed 24 at the Baptist Church. At the request of the secretary of defense, the oig agreed to investigate what happened with regard to his criminal history records. Also to review more broadly the policies, practices and procedures regarding when appropriate information is submitted by d. O. D. Law enforcement agencies for entry into fbi databases. The oig has begun that investigation and review. We have previously performed several reviews that found serious deficiencies in the d. O. D. Submission of required criminal history information to the fbi. Our first review in 1997 found significant gaps in the military Services Compliance with the requirement to submit criminal history data to the fbi. In addition, other previous d. O. D. Oig evaluations examined the handling of specific types of investigations by military service Law Enforcement organizations such as Sexual Assault investigations with the handling of specific types of evidence, such as dna. In these reports the d. O. D. Also found that the services were not consistently submitting required data from current investigations to the fbi. In 2015 the d. O. D. Completed another investigation and again found noncompliance by the military services in their submission of fingerprint and final disposition reports to the fbi. In february 2017, the oig opened up a review to determine whether they were submitting reports for its members convicted of qualifying offenses. We reviewed these submissions from the period. In our report which we issued yesterday we determined that military Services Still did not consistently submit Fingerprint Cards and final disposition reports as required. Overall of the 2500 Fingerprint Cards required to be submitted, 601 or 24 were not submitted. Of the final disposition reports required to be submitted, 780 or 31 were not submitted. The results differed by service. The army, navy and marines failed to submit many such Fingerprint Cards and final disposition reports. The air force performed better but still had many missing Fingerprint Cards and final disposition reports. Our report made a series of specific recommendations to address these serious deficiencies and ensure that all reports and Fingerprint Cards be submitted as desired. Also to ensure that such compliance is included in military service Inspector General inspections. Finally, we recommended that the d. O. D. Also ensure that other required investigative and criminal history information such as criminal Incident Data and dna samples has been submitted for inclusion in fbi databases. The secretaries of the army, navy and air force, the deputy chief management officer and the undersecretary of defense for intelligence all concurred with our investigations. In conclusion, the d. O. D. Oig has repeatedly found deficiencies of military Services Submission of required fingerprints, final disposition reports and other criminal history information to the fbi. We intend to follow up with these issues to ensure the d. O. D. Submits all information to the fbi. That concludes my statement and i look forward to answering any questions. Thank you, mr. Fine. Mr. Lundquist. I thank you for this opportunity to appear before you to discuss the fbis National Instant criminal background check system or nics. The brady handgun act of 1993 requires ffls to use the nics to determine whether the firearm transfer would violate state or federal laws. They conduct a search of available records in three National Databases. These National Databases are the ncic which contains information on one persons protection orders. The interstate identification index which accesses criminal history records and the nics indices. It includes individuals have have been determined to be federally prohibited from receiving a firearm when information may not be available through databases. Since 2010, the nics as experienced a steady increase in the volume of background checks. The last three years have been record setting. This past black friday was the highest volume day in history. Nics processed over 200,000 transactions. An increase of 17,000 over the most recent single day report just last year. Nics. By placing records in the triple i or ncic, the information is there for all criminal Justice Purposes not just firearm eligibility checks. Which, by the way are the backbones of national Law Enforcement in by placing records in the triple i or ncic, the information is there for all criminal Justice Purposes not just firearm eligibility checks. Which helps protect the public and our Law Enforcement agencies nationwide. To encourage and encrease the the submission of records nics program is a dedicated team providing providing support to partners to help them assess what records qualify for the nics purposes and provide support for entering and maintaining the information within the nics indices. On the federal side, the fbi continues to work with federal agencies to help identify and report relevant records and these efforts have led to a significant increase in the amount of Information Available to the nics. Additionally, the fbi has also partnered with the u. S. Courts to receive dispositions electronically for adjudicated individuals under federal supervision. Another area of focus for the nics is improving the completeness of state, territorial, tribal and federal criminal history records contained in the iii. The division conducts teleconferences, provides presentations and holds meetings with state, territory, tribal and federal agencies to provide dispositions, challenges the partners may be having and developing ways to over come those challenges. Every opportunity is taken to emphasize the National Need for updated, timely dispositions and provide awareness on how to submit them. The fbi works proactively with our criminal justice colleagues to make resources and Information Available to agencies working to improve their disposition reporting. Recently the attorney general directed the fbi to work with department of defense and atf to increase reporting to the nics. We look forward to accomplishing this important work. We all want to ensure that the nics has access to accurate and complete information so it can do its job to protect the public and keep firearms away from those who should not have them. Our fbi and state partners who use the nics every day to make firearms determinations take their work very seriously since theyre aware of the potential consequences. Our heart felt condolences go out to the victims of the shootings, including the most recent in las vegas and Sutherland Springs, texas. I thank the members of this committee and our American People and partners who have joined us as we discuss these matters today. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank all of you for staying within the time limits. Well have five rounds of questions. Im going to start with director brannon. Your agency two days ago started the process of promulgating the regulation interpreting the definition of machine gun in the National Firearms act and gun control act to clarify whether certain bump stock devices fall within that definition. Can you confirm that atf has concluded that it now has the authority under existing law to regulate bump stocks . Mr. Chairman, were pursuing theres the possibility that its possible as we go through the administrators procedures act, being the first step is the advanced notice of proposed rule making, which is within omb. As i said in my statement. If that wasnt a possibility at the end, we wouldnt initiate this process. Okay. Many gun owners are concerned that a regulation restricting manufacture or sale of bump stocks could apply to other firearms or firearms accessories in common use. Are you confident that the regulation if you move forward with the regulation can be written so that it addresses the bump stock issue separately but does not go beyond that . Well, mr. Chairman, thank you for the question. What i promise to you is that atf will follow the process of the administrative procedures act and the formal comments that we receive from the public and the industry members that we use that information to go to the next step. So i cant promise anything other than to follow the rules of the apa and also to evaluate and categorize the comments that we receive. I think the answer to my next question is obvious but im going to ask it anyway. After you receive comments from your advanced notice of proposed rule making, is it possible that atf will conclude that it cannot regulate bump stocks. Mr. Chairman, i couldnt answer that question at this time until i receive the comments. Secretary wilson, according to the most recent doj report, the air force Security Forces failed to properly report 60 of its cases to nics, whereas air force office of special investigations only failed to report 2 . Can you please explain why that discrepancy exists and what steps youre taking to fix the problem . Push the button. Senator, there are two elements of Law Enforcement in the United States air force, the office of special investigations, which generally investigates crimes that can be punishable for more than one year in prison and Security Forces, which are Security Force squadrons on an individual basis. Theyre organized differently. They have different responsibilities. My responsibility is to make sure that both of these Law Enforcement organizations comply. With respect to Security Forces, there are a number of things that were doing, global training, making sure that every Security Forces office has electronic fingerprints capability. Were adding it in as a special interest item on the next air force Inspector General inspections. And increased command interest and oversight. Weve also promulgated new training for all Security Forces personnel on not only how to do the fingerprints, but how to file those fingerprints with the national database. As i mentioned in my opening statement, we are looking at the database structure with our chief data officer to see if there is a better way to do this thats less manual. Mr. Brandon, bump stocks are not complicated devices. Its my understanding after study of it that it could be a piece of plastic, so bump stocks could be made by a 3d printer in somebodys garage. If im correct on that, given the simplicity if im wrong, you can tell me, but given the simplicity of manufacturing these devices, how does atf propose to regulate them . Well, mr. Chairman, to the first part of your question with 3d printing, theres been rapid advancements in that technology over the last few years. I would imagine thats possible. And as far as going forth with any regulation, again, im just going to go back that to adhere to the administrative procedures act, and well follow that to the t. And go from there. But keep the committee informed. Ive got three seconds left. So i can start my question. Mr. Fine, the Inspector General for the department of defense recommended in 1997 and 2015 that d. O. D. Needed to take steps to improve its nics reporting and to comply with federal law and d. O. D. Regulations and yet in a report issued just two days ago it appears that in 20152016 31 of the d. O. D. Records were not being reported to the fbi. So why has the department of defense failed to do a better job . I think theres a variety of issues. I think there was, as secretary wilson talked about, inadequate training, inadequate verification. They didnt take these recommendations as seriously as they should have. There are a lot of people involved with this. They should have been more conscientious in making sure that everyone knew the requirements and complied with the requirements. There are steps that need to be taken, some of which secretary wilson has mentioned. But there needs to be focused attention on it, there need to be someone responsible for it and they need to have dedicated effort to make sure this is fixed service wide. Senator feinstein, im going to call on you now. Im going to step out for a minute. If im not back, would senator cornyn take over, as her five minutes are up . Thank you. Go ahead. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And director brandon, i just want to thank you and all of your people. Atf, ive learned over the past 25 years, has a very hard job. And i thank you and your people for doing it. When atf is given information that a prohibited person has failed a background check and is likely lied on the background check form and im talking about form 4473 what is the process, if any, by which fbi or atf alerts local Law Enforcement . First, senator feinstein, again, i appreciate your support to atf, and also your genuine concern for Public Safety. I realize half the victims from las vegas came from california, as i understand it. So i thank you for that. My understanding is with the fbi through their nics process, its entered into ncic when someone doesnt pass and is denied. I would defer to my colleague, assistant director lindquist, to answer that question regarding notifying local Law Enforcement. I will ask director lindquist right now. Can you answer that question, sir . Maam, if i can get back to you on that one, i will check to verify, but i believe it is entered in ncic. Thats important to me. I just want you to know that. Director lundquist, what is the main reason for the large numbers of Domestic Violence offenders adjudication records not being entered into the ncic files, the nics files or the iii files . The interstate identification index . Is it that records are not submitted at all . And which states submit the most and the least records . Or is it that records are often incomplete for the purpose of conducting a background check . Maam, thats a multipart question. I will try and address those. It is difficult. Right now we have about 4. 5 million disqualifying Mental Health entries in the system. Those are mainly housed in the go slow. You said you had 4. 5 million disqualifying entries according to Mental Health issues in the nics indices. Thats where theyre housed. So these people who are mentally ill who apply . These are people who no, not necessarily. They are entered into our system in case theres an application. I see. So we have those records. Those are people who have been adjudicated through the system. In other words a court order has put them into a Mental Health institution. And according to the brady act, those are the qualifications there. So we hold those. There are probably more records out there that we do not have and thats some of the challenges that we face on a regular basis. Another part of your question, maam, what else is there that i failed to answer at this point . Well oh, main challenges, i think is what it was. Its a complicated law. Particularly on the misdemeanor Domestic Violence as laid out in the brady act is a complicated matter. We have to have in the records ready for our examiners to go through is one that it has to be a act of violence or a threat and act of violence. There has to be a relationship established in the record for us to be able to process that. Of course it has to be a misdemeanor at that point. Otherwise it will be in the other indices of criminal matters. So its a complicated matter and often times its an incomplete record. How would you sort that out . Education is the main way we try and do it, is to try and get that information out to the public. To the amess agencies that report that information to us. Make them aware that we do need that information to be able to process this according to the brady act. And you do do that . Yes, maam, we do. Okay. Let me go back to director brandon. Year after year, members of congress pushed for policy riders to limit atfs ability to make common sense updates to its definitions to require sellers to report suspicious transactions and to properly classify dangerous ammunition. Can you describe how these riders impact the atfs ability to protect Public Safety. Well, maam, thank you for that question. As you know, riders were particularly sensitive to, because we cant use appropriated funds on things that would be ruled inappropriate. So we cant expend any energy or time or resources to do that, because we would be violating the law. So what impact have they had specifically, if you can. Otherwise ill ask you in writing. No, maam. I appreciate the questions. I can give probably a full some response to your written request. Why dont i give you a written request . Im really interested in this. Ive been here 25 years. Ive watched it year after year after year. And ive seen your agency in a sense effectively crippled. I think we need to do something about that. I think im done. Senator cornyn. Mr. Lind quist, let me try to summarize, the National Crime Information Center is contains information from three databases. Is that correct . Not exactly, senator. It is what were talking about, the nics system, what youre referring to, right. Thats the system set up to enforce the brady act, to make sure we have the Information Available. One of the subsets is the National Crime Information Center, ncic, which has active warrants and protection orders in it. Its not just convictions. Its actually people with restraining orders and protective orders and domestic disputes and people with Mental Health commitments. Where would those records be reflected, in the triple i . Some of it. Youve kind of covered the gamut of the three records that we check for background checks and weapons purchases. Criminal history is in triple i. That is people that have been arrested and convicted of crimes. So that information is in triple i. Ncic has information that is active wants and warrants. Those can be protection orders as well. And the nics indices if it doesnt fit in either of the categories, it will go into the nics indices, specifically for a firearms purchase. That strikes me as pretty complicated. It seems that way at first. Ive learned to work with this. The 18,000 Law Enforcement agencies nationwide, the backbone of the system that they use, the trooper or agent that has someone pulled over on the side of the road, the first thing theyre checking is ncic that system is there for their use to make sure they know who theyre dealing with. Are they actively wanted for a crime . And then they check oftentimes will check iii to find out if they have a criminal history. I want them to know and all of us want to support them to know they know who theyre dealing with. Thats the main purpose of the system. One of the ancillary uses is for our background checks for weapons purchases. Is there anything that the federal government can do to a state that fails to upload Mental Health protective orders, criminal convictions into the nics background check system . Thats a challenge, senator. To be frank with you. I know thats something you are all trying to address through legislation. Its something were actively reviewing right now. The short answer is the federal government cant compel the state to do it. That is correct. All we can do is incentivize the state to facilitate that. Thats one of the problems wed ran into with the Virginia Tech shooter who had been adjudicated mentally ill. Which was a disqualifying event. But because they didnt upload that information, it wasnt available to the fbi under the nics background check information, correct . Yes, sir. So we have two problems. Secretary wilson talked about the military. Mr. Fine talked about the d. O. D. Which is a huge gaping hole in the nics background check system. But we also have the challenge of dealing with the sovereign states and incentivizing them to provide that information. Of course, thats part of what were trying to do in our legislation is not only have the kind of accountability and disciplinary consequences potentially that secretary wilson talked about when a federal official doesnt comply with federal law. But also we have the corresponding challenge of dealing with the state governments to incentivize them to upload the information. You know, after sandy hook and aurora, which were mentioned i think by senator feinstein, we tried to look at the Mental Health issues, and we provided additional tools to family members in the 21st century cures bill to try to help family members intercede when they know their own loved one is mentally ill, but is not compliant with doctors orders, not receiving treatment. But it seems to me there is no clearer cause and effect between tragedy and the potential prevention of that tragedy than improving the background check system. But as youve described it, its exceedingly complex because its not only criminal convictions, its Domestic Violence protective orders in divorce cases and custody disputes and its Mental Health commitments. We just simply have to do better. So secretary wilson, i know that you cant comment on the potential results of a pending investigation because of the issue of undue command influence in an investigation there. But what can setting this case aside, what can the military do . What can the d. O. D. Do to make sure that our Commanding Officers, the people responsible for overseeing the people who actually implement this process in the air force and the department of defense actually do their job. Is it possible for congress to make sure this has a negative impact if their Commanding Officer doesnt do their job, that they dont get promoted, that their career can be ended . I think we need to have some means of enforcing this, as you said, accountability and discipline. What would you suggest . One of the things that we have put in place is checks at Different Levels of command so that it is more likely that if there is a failure to file a fingerprint card that the next level of command will be able to see it. As you close the case, you cant just close it at a local detachment. The regional commander has to look at and close that case and say, yes, this has been done. With respect to future accountability or how do we make sure this doesnt happen again and that the system is fixed, i think one of the most important things is making it a special interest item on the Inspector Generals investigations when we go out to command to do command reviews. And then within the next 12 months, the air force audit agency is going to audit to see are the results showing up from the actions weve taken. Senator leahy . Thank you, mr. Chairman. This hearing is important. It doesnt begin to address all of the problems. I know im glad were having it. I held four hearings between 2013 and 2014 on gun violence. And the rest. We had a number of pieces of legislation, which passed the senate as a result of that. Unfortunately, we havent had any looked at this since. But one of the things we found out in those hearings, and ill direct this to director brandon. No matter how tough our laws are, its easy to evade them on gun shows, private seller online. Or a gun show. We see criminals look to straw purchasers. Weve seen people come to my state and elsewhere, buy guns and then go to criminal gangs. Theres no background check. We can talk about tightening up our background check. It wont make any difference. I understand the straw purchaser armed San Bernardino shooter couldnt be charged with firearms trafficking even though he knew the shooter was planning a terrorist attack, but he didnt know what specific attack. 14 people died. The legislation we have here wouldnt close that loophole at all. I mean, im a gun owner. Ive competed in shooting matches in college, helped pay my way through college. I actually have a pistol range at my home, as all liberal democrats do. [ laughter ] but the point im making, i believe these laws should be tightened. I know you worked on gun cases in the field for a number of years. What are some of the challenges bringing firearms trafficking charge . Under 9248 . Senator leahy, thank you for your question. And, yeah, im a gun owner, too. I have often said i have friends that are democrats and republicans. I say raise your hands if youre in favor of gun violence. I never see a hand go up. And thats an american issue. To answer your question, on 924h, which would be knowingly transferring a firearm that would be a commission of a Violent Crime, or a drugrelated crime. It is a harder element to prove. You know, to your point, we have traditionally relied on the paper cases, trying to perfect firearms trafficking cases. So we use the appropriate laws you have given us and tried to enforce them to the best of our ability to reduce Violent Crime. And one of the charges ive put out across atf is sometimes cases are simple, sometimes theyre complex. But they all should be good. And good means they have an impact on reducing gun violence. Thats taking the statutes that you all have begin us and trying to do the best we can with them to go after what i call the two ts, the trigger puller and the trafficker. Its the person pulling the trigger and shooting people and its the person giving that trigger puller the gun. Thats where weve been focusing our efforts to reduce gun violence. Lets talk about the laws that we have. The law is that you have to record the sales of guns entirely on paper. To go back to how that came through, those are saying, well, we have to do this because theres a conspiracy. If its electronic, there would be a nationwide seizure of guns. And there are people including people in congress who actually believe that bologna. So we insist that gun sales be tracked exclusively on paper. The the atf has to search through boxes in a warehouse. Good lord. If you have a recall on your car because theres something wrong with the brakes, its all done electronically. But if youre going to go after a gun that kills people, better check it out on paper. This seems to me like a hell of a burden on Law Enforcement. Its the law. Senator leahy. And like you said, senator feinstein. Its the law, and we comply with it. Senator kennedy. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The incidents that we have talked about today are tragedies and i dont want anything that i say today to be construed as undermining that fact. Let me ask you, have you seen a lot of waste in government . Have you seen a lot of stupidity in government . Yes. Can we agree that training is expensive but bad employees are more expensive. Your mike isnt on. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. Federal problems director lindquist, all things being equal, when it comes to the right to own a gun and whether to own a gun, who do you think is better able to make that decision, the people who are governing or the people who are governed . I would defer to this body for the fact that we are you are governing those that have elected you to do so. So it is representation. So were trying to do that. Were trying to enact the laws that you all as a body have put out there and were trying to do that to the best of your ability. No disrespect but that was a nice dodge. Let me offer a thought. Theres some people in this world who are not confused and theyre not sick and their conduct is not determined by the fact that their mother or father didnt love them enough. Theyre just plain damn bad. Now, i dont know why that is. If i ever make it before the good lord, im going to ask him or her. When a radical islamic jihadist abducts a young girl and turns her into a sex slave, we are told not to judge the actions of all muslims by the conduct of one. Do you agree with that . I have heard that, senator. I know that from my work in Counter Terrorism cases and working Violent Crime cases, most recently in el paso, texas, as the special agent in charge ive seen evil. I know what that is. But do you agree with my statement . I have heard that, yes, sir. Well, i agree with it. Do you think it is appropriate to blame 90 million gun owners in america because of the actions of certain evil people . Nobody is. Sir, i know were trying to enforce the system as it is written. Im just asking yes or no. If you could. Im sorry to be abrupt, but ive got other questions. If you dont want to answer, just tell me. We are trying to enforce the laws as written, and youre right. 90 of the transactions we process are lawabiding citizens, and they get their weapons that they are entitled to have. All right. Let me ask director brandon. Have you ever heard the expression, you cant fix stupid, but you can fire it . No, sir, not until just you said it. Would you agree with it . Uh, without giving it deeper thought, it sounds like a catchy phrase. [ laughter ] youre pretty good at dodging too. What do you think is the best way clearly some people within the state and federal bureaucracy who are supposed to report data to nics, are not doing it. Surely youll agree with me on that. Sir, i believe that all the information could get to nics that is accurate and complete because any system all right. I understand. I get it. Okay. Let me try this way. What do you think is the best way to enforce the requirement this information be turned into nics, to turn to the bureaucracy at the state and federal level and say pretty please with sugar on top and well give you extra money if you do it . Or how about we get out of la la land and into the real world, and say, heres a radical thought. If you dont do it, youre fired . Because nobody around here ever gets fired, madam secretary. Whats that mean . Im done. Senator blumenthal. Mr. Chairman, with your permission im going to yield to senator whitehouse, because he has an obligation on the floor. Senator whitehouse. Thank you. I appreciate that courtesy. My questions are going to be for director brandon. Let me just say that in my years as Rhode Islands u. S. Attorney i just thought that the atf office there was terrific. You made big cases with a small office. You were low maintenance and High Performance and it was terrific. So i just want to express my appreciation to my colleagues from that office back then and to the atf generally now. If i may say, thank you for that, because right now there are men and women all around the country for atf serving warrants, highrisk warrants, i know theyll hear what you said and it will really help their morale. Sincerely i say thank you. Its sincere on my part. Were here because of the general proposition that a database is only as good as the data that actually enters into it. If you search a database for data thats never been entered, its going to fail. So this hearing is mostly about nics. Id like to ask you a few questions about another one the nibm database for blits information. What is your view as the acting director of the atf as to how effective the collection is of data of crime guns, weapons and cartridges and bullets that goes into this system . Do you think were operating effectively at catching the data so we arent having the kind of data slips that in the nics system this hearing is about . Is niben an example that we should use of better collection or is it an area where we need to provide a little bit of attention to make sure there arent data gaps in that system, as well . Thank you for the question, senator. And niban ive testified previously, stands for the nashl integrated ballistics network. Where niban is working well, its where the police chief establishes policy and also changes culture. Culture will chew up policy all day long. Its quite effective. The reason it has been, we at atf actually took an assessment of ourselves and we turned it into a leads generator instead of a scientific confirmation. As an example, i had the assistant chief of cincinnati pd came up to me at the International Association of chiefs of police in san diego and said i have to stop and just want to compliment. We had a shooter shoot at our police headquarters, miss our officer. Within 12 hours we emptied that casing that was left at the scene and it went through a national niban Training Center down in alabama. Which we recently established two years ago now. Within 24 hours we had a match to three other shootings. He said his detectives and the atf agent had three guys locked up in 72 hours. Niban is quite effective. When its properly policied its lead to the arrest of serial carjackers, a triple murder, the murder of a police officer, significant gang arrests, its opened cold cases. Its a valuable tool. My question is, and you can take it for the record because i know this wasnt a specific focus of this hearing, but id love to get an answer on it. In the universe of data that should be coming into niban to populate that database so the searches like the one you described can be effective and generate those quick leads, of that universe of data that should be coming in, how much of it do you think now is . Ill say of the sites that we have that it has improved. I will get back to you. A question for the record, then. I appreciate your service, i appreciate your support for the niban program, and i appreciate its crimesolving capabilities. I totally agree. Thank you, senator. Senator tillis. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today. Mr. Brandon, i want to go back to the timeline for looking at the regulations that could be promulgated regarding bump stocks. Can you give me an idea for the length of time this could take before you could promulgate a rule . If you determine at the end of the process you have the authority to do so . Thank you for the question, senator. I was told that once the anprm would be approved from omb there would be a 30day comment period. And that i dont want to guess, because we could have tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of response, and we have to look at each one and categorize that. So i would be happy to report back to the committee after that was announced to give a time frame to your question. But we are probably talking about months, though. Yeah. It seems reasonable just based on the way apa normally plays out, the notice and public commentgathering and review of the comments. I mean, this is a monthslong proposition minimally. Do you think thats a fair characterization for me to make, not you . Yes, sir. Its an area and then you did respond, i think, to the chairmans question that the end result of this could be that perhaps you dont have the authority to regulate bump stocks. Is that a possibility for what could occur after some months long review of this process . That is a possibility. So it raises a question about whether or not the apa is in place to allow rules to be promulgated to get public comment. But Congress Moves forwards sometimes more quickly and i think its something we should all look at rather than wait several months and find out we have to act to specifically focus on the bump stock issue. Secretary wilson, you mentioned in your opening testimony that there were some ten databases and manual processes that youre looking at as part of your investigation. Is that within the air force or the whole of d. O. D. Or a little bit of both . Senator, its both. Its across four agencies, air force, d. O. D. And those at the fbi. As youre going through this investigation, youre looking at the specifics of what occurred recently in texas and how we put a gun in the hand of somebody who shouldnt have had one. Are we doing a more wholistic view to find the systemic problems. And mr. Fine, im going to lead into a question with you. Its one thing to take a look at who made mistakes, the individuals who made mistakes in this particular case. But there seems to be a number of other of these processes that were going through that just thank god have not resulted in the kind of outcome that we saw in texas. Where does your does your investigation focus on the specific matter, or are we looking more broadly about a lot of people, potentially not doing what they should be doing . Senator, we found both a problem at that local detachment but also a more systemic problem. Our review has not just looked at the root causes in this particular case but also one of the systemic problems and things that need to be fixed. Mr. Fine, when were looking at the whole of dod, there may be some rational basis for more than one database. I dont know that the nature of the database, how else they may be used. But have we done any work to make recommendations about how we consolidate, streamline and automate these processes . We have looked at that in general. There is enormous Information Technology systems within the d. O. D. Theres an enormous number of databases even in the financial statements. Theres differing systems. And that is a problem in the department of defense. There needs to be more standardization. There does need to be in our view a broader look at the systems. In this case in response to your question to secretary wilson, we are looking at the policies, practices and procedures all throughout the department of defense, not just in the air force as secretary wilson was looking at. But in the army, the navy, the defense agencies. This is a critical problem all throughout. I would also say its not only a problem in the department of defense. Not only a problem in the state and local governments. Im quite certain from my experience its a problem in other federal agencies as well whether its the department of Homeland Security or the treasury department, marshal service. We need to look at that, too. I actually think we recollected take a look at a whole of government with respect to this challenge, a whole of government approach. I will say in deference to senator kennedy, often times were going to have people come before this committee and point at dumb that may be going on in an agency or bad decisions. But my guess is some of the promulgation of these databases and processes relate to dumb past decisions of congress that have not properly funded or instructed the whole of government or the dod to modernize. And i think we all need to recognize that there are some things that we need to do to properly resource and properly focus the agencies. And we own that problem. Its not something you can fix. If and the majority of the people who are working in the agencies. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator coons. Ill defer to senator blumenthal. Thank you. I want to express my thanks to you and the Ranking Member for holding this very, very important hearing. And my colleagues from nevada and texas for their very heartfelt and moving statements. I can tell them as we approach the fifth anniversary of sandy hook that they will continue to look in the eye the families and loved ones of victims who died in those massacres for years to come and feel the same sense of heartbreak and grief. But also the families and loved ones of victims of gun violence who die one by one in our communities, on our streets, in neighborhoods across the country and every community in this country. 90 every day still as a result of gun violence. And thats why i want to thank particularly the groups that are represented here today and the individuals who have come because they reflect and represent the victims across the country who know from their personal experience the toll that gun violence takes and how preventible, truly preventible it is. And thats why i have joined with senator cornyn and others on the nics fix legislation, with senator feinstein on bump stock legislation, but also generally to extend background checks to purchases that are uncovered now, 40 or more of all gun sales around the country as well as other measures, these are just the beginning that can make our neighborhoods and streets safer. Mr. Lundquist would you agree with me that the state reporting of convictions and other dispositions is abjectly inadequate currently . It is lacking, yes, senator. And something should be done immediately and urgently to fix a broken reporting system, would you agree . There are fixes that need to happen. There are many states that are doing what theyre required to do and entering these dispositions and final adjudications in the system and thats very helpful to us. How many states are failing . There are a number. I dont have the exact number in front of me. Would you agree with me that it, in fact, is a majority of states . I dont know if its a majority of states by number. It might be a majority representative of the population. In one way or another its putting people in danger. Yes, it is. And its putting Law Enforcement in danger. Yes, it is. Has the department of justice they are the ones at the other end of the gun who should be barred from having it. Thats correct. Has department of justice as far as you know taken a position on the nics fix legislative proposal . I dont believe we have as yet. We are still looking at it. Would you personally agree that it should be passed . I havent read the entire thing but as i see it it has a lot of benefits to it. Thank you. Mr. Fine, i am struck by the failure of the department of defense to comply with the law year after year and after repeated evaluations. Do you have any explanation for it . I think its a variety of factors. I think its inadequate training, lack of verification, the fact that they didnt make this an item on their inspections. What gets inspected gets done. Theres really no excuse for it. It should have happened. Your report, as i understand it, says that the department of defense should go back to the years 20152016 to make sure that convictions are entered. When you say go all the way back 20 years to at least 1998. We looked at 2015 and 2016 and found significant problems. We think there are problems all the way back and we recommend in our report they go back at least to 1998, when the instruction required them to do it. I agree. And would you agree also that there should be greater accountability, namely stern and strict discipline for the failure to do adequate reporting . I do believe accountability should occur. I think there has to be first training, verification and make sure people know their responsibilities. And if they dont do it, when that happens, there ought to be accountability. One last question for secretary wilson. Would you agree, secretary wilson, that the uniform code of military justice should be amended to include a specific article on Domestic Violence . In other words, specific punishment as a felony for Domestic Violence under the ucmj . Senator, there is a proposed revision to the ucmj manual for Court Martial that has enhanced penalties for assault against a family member. I think that has been published in the code of federal regulations and is pending. So one of the questions still in my mind is whether we actually need to change the statute, or whether the enhanced penalty is sufficient. Would you agree with me that specifying an article on the ucmj on Domestic Violence would send a message to our military men and women, the greatest and most dedicated in the world, that Domestic Violence simply will not be tolerated . Senator, it does send a message. I would like to work with you on some things our attorneys have identified as potential unintended consequences, as well, and i would would be glad to work with you on that. I would be glad to work with you, and i hope youll support the proposal. Senator coons. Id like to thank the panel. Id like to thank everyone who has come here today to remind us of the millions of families across our country who have been touched in some way by gun violence. Im from the small city of wilmington in delaware. We are currently struggling with a spate of gun violence that exceeds any previous records. We are a small city but weve had 160 shooting incidents so far this year and 30 homicide victims and 191 shooting victims. We have looked to and received great assistance from atf and fbi. Our struggling with a community as how to address this ongoing wave of violence. I think were just one small window into what we see nationally. The mass shooting incidents that were described early on by the senators from nevada and texas, and then the routine tragically daily gun violence incidents that plague our whole country. And i am hopeful we can make some bipartisan progress. Thats why ive co sponsored senator cornyns bill and senator feinsteins bill on bump stocks. I want to pursue a line of questioning if i night that senator feinstein began earlier about nics denials. It is a crime to try and buy a firearm if the law prohibits you from having one. Right . Both federally and in many states. Yes, sir. How many of these try and buy crimes are prosecuted every year federally do you think . I dont know the answer to that, senator. You would agree with me that if a person tries to buy a firearm but is denied because of a failed background check, they are likely to go somewhere else to try and get a gun. Thats possible. Possible or likely . I dont know the answer to that. Its possible. It certainly would be a good predictor. That someone is in the market for a weapon, if they try and are denied. It can be a predictor, yes, sir. So wouldnt it be helpful to state and local Law Enforcement, to federal Law Enforcement, if they knew about that person and their illegal attempt to gain a weapon, even though being a person prohibited, before they succeed in getting a gun another way . It can be helpful, yes, sir. Well, in my home community, its the sort of thing im hoping we can find a bipartisan path towards solving. A recent fbi report found that last year alone, there were 4,000 instances where individuals were permitted to purchase a firearm despite their not being cleared by the background check process. Thats a tenyear high, if i understand correctly. Why is the number of nics failures increasing so much . Senator, i dont know the exact reasons for that. My supposition is the fact that the number of background checks have increased astronomically. Since 2010, we had 14 million background checks in the nics system. Year was the record number. That is nearly double in that time frame. Its a tremendous strain for those people who do that work for the fbi and the point of contact states across the nation. The threeday background check, the three Business Days were allowed under the brady act, that sometimes gets stretched with those volumes like that. Thats the only reason i can think of off the top of my head that would lead to those purchases being allowed. In other words, the firearms dealer, according to the brady act, after three Business Days and we have not gotten back to them because we have asked the jurisdiction for further information, that they can sell that firearm according to the brady act. So that firearm can be sold. At that point if we get the kwis disqualifying information, we immediately get that back out. And thats why those 4,000 weapons were retrieved at that point. If i might, mr. Brandon, requests by the fbi to recover an an lawful firearm are particularly dangerous. Were asking an atf agent to confront a person prohibited, who is now known to possess one or more weapons. Would you agree that these are particularly dangerous for Law Enforcement officials . Senator coons, thanks for the question. And my executive team and i in 2015 made it a priority of retrieving delayed denials. In fact, i have a monthly briefing, a monitored case briefing, where we track every division, and we see how its trending up and down. The comment about the volume of sales, you know, youre going to have more people delayed denial. I will shed some light on it. It may be the perception that all these people are violent felons. Theyre prohibited and so forth. And sometimes, though, it will come back that theyre not prohibited. So we have to do a thorough investigation, but my affirming to you, senator, that its a priority to atf, and we own it. And so i have an expression. Its pure atf, one atf, working on pure atf, and delayed denials get our full attention. It seems to me if i might in closing say, this is an area where i think i hope theres broad bipartisan agreement that we should be providing the resources you need. In fbi and atf and state and local Law Enforcement to make sure that people who should not have access to firearms under our current laws dont. That we are coordinating and reporting between federal agencies and state and local Law Enforcement, and in particular, that where someone who is prohibited is denied an opportunity to purchase a firearm, that that information is shared in a way that is appropriate and actionable, because the best way to stop gun violence is to make sure that those who under our current law are not allowed to have firearms do not easily get access to them. So thank you very much for your testimony. Thank you, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, for todays hearing. I think this is an important issue for us to work on. Senator hirono. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I thank all the panelists for coming today. I, along with many of my colleagues, have supported reasonable measures to prevent the ongoing gun violence in our country, including the restricting or banning of bump stocks, assault weapons, highcapacity magazines. I would like to follow up on a question that was asked by senator blumenthal because i do have a bill that the department of defense is not objecting to, that would close the loophole in reporting to the nics system. That has to do with the fact that in 2012, devin kelley, who was the texas church shooter, had been convicted in a general courtmartial on assault charges. There is no specific charge in the ucmj for Domestic Violence in the ucmj, so my bill, and this is for secretary wilson and mr. Fine, my bill will close that loophole by making a very specific charge, not just under a general assault charge. So do you think that such a specific charge for Domestic Violence, that would include dating partners, do you agree that a measure like that would bring clarity to the reporting process . Secretary wilson, mr. Fine. Senator, this case should have been reported and was not. The disposition of this case is actually clearly marked as a crime of Domestic Violence. So it should have been reported and was not. With respect to how it would help or hurt the reporting and databases, im afraid i cant answer that question for you now. I would be happy to take it and look at the legislation and take the question for the record. Well, the fact that it should have been reported but it was not i think can be cleared up if there is a charge, a very specific charge for Domestic Violence, and there is no such specific charge. You can categorize or describe a general assault charge as involving Domestic Violence, but there is no separate charge. I think that would be a very reasonable way to clarify that situation. Mr. Fine, would you like to add . I havent looked at this in detail, but it seems to me theres a disconnect between the qualifying offenses in uniform code of military justice and the disqualifying offenses for obtaining a firearm, which does prevent people who have committed a misdemeanor crime of Domestic Violence from obtaining a weapon. There is no specific charge in the uniform code of military justice for assault or crime of Domestic Violence. So that may be something that could insure that those crimes are more accurately coded, noted and provided to nics. On first blush, it does seem to be a reasonable step that could help because we have seen, and were going to analyze this, but we have seen not many crimes of Domestic Violence are reported as such. Theyre reported in a general category of assault. That could be a problem. That is my point exactly. That if there is a specific charge then, whoever is bringing the charge has to think about it and to make a determination. And that is not left to someone down the line trying to, you know, describe what constitutes a charge of assault. So as i said, the department of defense has indicated to me that they would not object to such a clarification. There is a connection between Domestic Violence and gun violence, and for all of the panelists, why is it important that those convicted of Domestic Violence crimes be prevented from owning a firearm . Would you care to opine . Any of you. You acknowledge there is generally a connection between Domestic Violence and gun violence . There are many studies to that effect. Maam, ill take the question. You know, if we have information that someone has a firearm and they have a conviction for Domestic Violence, and that becomes a priority to us because, again, it shows that usually a close partner or a loved one could be at danger, and our whole job is to prevent that, to prevent gun violence from happening. So is that a priority for the military also . Mr. Fine . It is. Domestic violence, Sexual Assault, any kind of assault is a priority for the military. Its an issue that needs to be addressed and addressed fully. There are a lot of members of the military who do own weapons. So i would think that it would be a very high priority that should there be any kind of an assault in the background of these individuals that you are fully apprised of the need to protect the potential victims. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I have one question. Senator blumenthal has two questions, and then well be done with this panel. Im going to ask mr. Lindquist and mr. Fine, when dod Inspector General issued a report in 2015 showing that the department of defense had serious nics reporting issues, what did the Obama Administration do in response . Either one of you. Start out, and then both of you answer it. Well, i dont know what the Obama Administration did. We made the recommendations to the services, and its quite clear that the services did not take appropriate action to follow up on those recommendations. Mr. Lindquist. I dont have that answer in front of me, senator. I came into office here in april, so i didnt look back that far to see what was taking place there. Would you answer in writing . We can, yes, sir. Then i have two questions im going to submit to the panel for answer in writing. Senator blumenthal. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I will be very brief because we have a panel afterward, but i would like to pursue questions in writing with all of you subsequent to this hearing. Let me just say, in listening to the testimony from this panel, an excellent panel this morning, i am reminded of all of the work that i have done and i know fo attorney general have done with the fbi and the atf. And i just want to express my thanks to you and to the men and women who are out there every day literally putting their lives on the line. I can remember well one of the highlights, a trial i did with the atf involving an agent who worked undercover, at extraordinary personal danger to himself. And i think americans should be extraordinarily grateful for your service and sacrifice. Mr. Brennan, i want to ask you a quick question about this advanced notice and anticipated notice of rule making. Youve been asked about the time that could be taken by this process. It could be months but it could be years because there could well be a challenge if there is a rule is in fact promulgated, correct . That would be true, sir. That would be a challenge in court and in fact a challenge in court could use the previous statements that have been made by the atf, i have one june 7th, 2010, id ask be made part of the record. Without objection. Which says about the bump stocks that they are not regulated as a firearm under the gun control act or National Firearms act because they are accessories. There are a number of statements like this, correct . Correct, you i think personally told a meeting in philadelphia very recently that federal law to bar bump stocks would probably require a new statute to be effective. That present law doesnt cover them. Thank you for the question, if i recall correctly, what i was saying they are lawful, however, i asked for attorneys outside of atf to take a fresh look at it because took seriously the letters i received from the senators and congressmen and women on both sides to keep an eye open mind and to do something. Those lives lost really hit everybody hard with whatever capacity we had with atf, we kept an open mind to do whatever we could do. Thats this advance notice of proposed rule making, im not in the legislative branch to make a law. But whatever we could do and then to the people sitting behind here ive been at scenes with gun violence and throughout my career as an atf agent and it hits hard. I take it it to answer your question as, whatever we could do, were trying to do. And i appreciate that, sir. I hope this body will act more quickly than the months or years that might be taken for you to do what you would like to do to better protect the public and i thank you for your sincere desire to do so, thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks to the panel, we give a week for people to submit questions, since theres a lot of absenteeism, maybe expect questions from people that werent here, thank you all very much. While they are going, would the other panel hurry and come. Ill let you sit down and while youre while youre being seated, im going to introduce you to save time. On october 1st miss guz was working at the route 91 harvest Country Music festival when Stephen Paddock began firing from the 32nd floor of mandalay bay hotel. When the firing began, this witness did not flee, instead helped move individuals out of harms way. She then helped comfort a fatally wounded man. Ms. Guz stayed with the man after hours, notifying and comforting fans and loved ones. Mr. David slayton, the administrative director of the texas courts, been in that position since 2012. In this role, mr. Slayton is responsible for directing the operations of the office of Court Administration and serves as the director of the Texas Judicial Council and our Organization Task would continually study the organization procedure of texas courts and methods of improvement. Past president of the National Association of Court Management and formerly secretary on the board of directors of Texas Association for drug court professionals. He has worked in the Texas Judicial Branch since 98. Mr. Hallbrook, a senior fellow at the independent institute, a think tank based in oakland, california. Hes also taught legal and political philosophy at tuskegee institute. Mr. Hallbrook has argued cases before the Supreme Court author of several books on seconds amendment and gun control. One of those books is titled, the founders Second Amendment, origins of the right to bear arms and another one that every man be armed, the evolution of a constitutional rights, his writings have appeared in several legal journals. Chief jay thomas anger, has been chief of police in Montgomery County, maryland since february 20 2004. He began his Law Enforcement career in 1977, Fairfax County Virginia Police department, ultimately becoming chief of police in 98. During thinks distinguished career in Law Enforcement, chief manger has received multiple awards, including the James S Brady Law Enforcement award, the Community Champion award for Law Enforcement, Community Champion award for Youth Leadership foundation and Montgomery County Victims Rights Foundation Public Safety award. Additionally this chief is currently the president of the major cities. Chief association and he also knows very well the chief of police of cedar rapids, iowa, my home state. David koppel is a Research Director at the Independence Institute in colorado. An associate policy analyst for kato and constitutional law Denver University sterms college of law. Author of several books on Second Amendment, one entitled truth about gun contr and no s and also been featured on National Media programs and work published in several legal journals and were going to go in the same way that i introduced you. So ms. Guz, that how you pronounce your name . Members of the committee, thank you so much for inviting me to speak here today. My name is heather gooze, on october 1st, 2017 i was in vegas, nevada. Also there were christine carrier and heather salen. Here sitting behind me today. Before i tell my story, i feel i need to disclose something to the committee. I am not someone who is antigun. Im very pro Second Amendment. But i support the bill to ban bump stocks. They are for hurting people. And they have no place in our general society i hope my story will make you understand why. The threeday Country Music festival going on for four years. This was my second year landing a highly coveted bartending job. One of the main bars in the midst of the fet val grounds. People come from all over the world for this event. At 10 00 p. M. That night, the first round of gunshots peppered the grounds. I remember hearing a loud noise and thinking its just feedback from the speakers or maybe fireworks. People were still dancing then everyone started to trample the bar and pushing through the back doors. At first i thought a group was trying to storm the vip area until i heard the screams, shooter, fwun, help me. This was followed by a second round of gunshots, there were people covered with blood all over their bodies. My own night of terror continued with me helping frightened concert goers go through the back doors, hoping they would be safe. As people tried to hoist others over the fence out back i joined 20 others to push the fence over so they could run out. I went to the v. I. P. To check on the other bartenders when another set of gunshots rang out directly in front of my bar. My coworker ryan was only spared by hiding behind an a. T. M. He saved another bartender in the process by pulling her behind the atm. The woman next to them got hit by the raining bullets. I then ran down the stores and got pulled under the bathroom tail trailer and had a moment to call my mom and sister. I heard them they are going to hear really scary things on the news and most of it was true but for now i was okay. The four set of shots starting pinging off the metal around us. We tried to stay as quiet as possible. Throughout this entire ordeal, at any point i expected to look up and see a gunman ready to shoot. Everyone scrambled for the gate but for whatever reason i ran back into the bar. The first thing i saw was a woman bleeding down her leg who said it hurt. I asked if she had fallen and she said no. I looked down and saw the first bullet holes. I asked a man to help carry her out back. But then someone else came in, dragging a man by his fingers and been hit in the thigh and broken his leg falling. I grabbed an arm and helped pull him through and behind the bar. There were 6 to 8 already injured there. As bodies and wounded continued to grow i ran to the medics tent for help. Every two minutes somebody else was running in. One group carrying a girl shot in the back. I helped adjust her on a route 91 banner and found out after looking at pictures that girl hadnt made it. I ran back and told everyone help was on the way. Strar strangers started to pull up in trucks and cars, volunteering to drive the injured to the hospital while we carried them to the makeshift ambulances. At one point i got called over to hold a jean jacket on a victims head to stop the bleeding. He was breathing but wasnt conscious. As a car pulled up to load the injured, the jacket fell and i was left plugging the hole in the victims head with my bare fingers. The mans name was chris, he died the next day. Then i met the victim who would become a main part of my story. Laid on a maintenance ladder being used as a makeshift stretcher. Three men called me over. I held it with one hand and touched his hand and fingers lightly touched mine. When the group reached the sidewalk area deemed safe from whomever was shooting, they put the ladder down. The man asked if i was okay as i was covered in chriss blood, i told them it wasnt my blood. They ran back to the Festival Grounds to continue helping and i kept holding this unmanned names hand and then it stop holding mine. Strangers checked his chest, nothing they do do. What do you say . He was now doa. Someone draped a tshirt over his face and tablecloth and for some strange reason i felt compelled to stay and sit with the body. I felt attached. I saw other bodies lying alone and didnt want this man to be left alone. I was Still Holding his hand. About an hour later his phone rang and i answered. The person on the other end of the line asked, who is this . Why are you answering my friends phone. I asked them, who are you . Where are you calling from . Who are you calling . The other voice said, im trying to reach jordan mceldoor, british colombia maple ridge. I had to tell them jordan had died and pulling out jordans wallet, took a picture of his i. D. And sent to everybody on his facebook friend list. His girlfriend amber was also at the festival. We got a hold of her and she asked, is he okay . And i said no. She asked if she got shot and i said yes. Hes breathing right . I said, amber hes not breathing, hes dead. Are you sure, hes the love of my life . I said hes gone. I made a promise i would stay by jordan no matter what so amber would know when the Emergency Personnel took him away. I told her i wouldnt leave his side, at that point only two there knew who he was. I called jordans mom back and she asked if jordan was okay and i realized we never told her he had passed. I had to teld her he had died and had to tell her from a complete stranger in another country that her only child had been murdered. I stayed with jordan over four hours during that night. When police and Emergency Personnel arrived, i told them about jordan and i said i promise not to leave until i knew they had his girlfriend. It was about 3 30 in the morning when the police finally got a hold of amber and got her out of lockdown. I made it home not believing or understanding what had just happened. When i asked myself in the days following why i stayed with a strangers body, i could only answer i hope someone would do the same for me. I didnt want jordan to be a john doe his death mattered and i wanted him to be remembered. I dont know why i didnt run. I had more than one opportunity. I still dont know. Im not that strong. Im not that special im not a hero or angel, but something wouldnt let me run and compelled me to help chris and jordan and others who names i dont even know. As i mentioned a moment ago, i may have stayed because i hoped someone would do the same for me. I did it because i wouldnt want to be forgotten. But the truth is that none of us want to be forgotten and i ask the committee not forget all of the lives that were lost that day, all of the lives affected that day. And all of the lives that could be affected in the future. Thank you. Thank you, youre a brave person. Mr. Slayton. Thank you for allowing me to testify. Im testifying on the behalf of state Court Administrators, im the current administrator of the texas Court Administration. The principal core Administrative Officer for each state and territory dedicated to the improvement of state court systems. The state Court Administrators are responsible for implementing policy and programs for the state judicial systems. State courts handle 98 of all judicial proceedings in the country. Id like to share with you about texass reporting to nix. Information about arrest and prosecutions for various criminal offenses are entered by Law Enforcement and jails and prosecutors and courts into the criminal Justice Information system. Those entries populate the ncic and iii system previously mentioned. Information about Mental Health disqualifiers are submitted by court clerks. To be clear, ensuring records are accurately and promptly entered in the databases takes concerted effort by those in the system. This is due to the various stake holders who must contribute records. Many are paper based and need to be converted to a paper format. Some states, including texas do not have a single auto mated Computer System that maintains the records and may require automation upgrades and adoption of state legislation to fully comply with the nix standards. The nix database is only as good as the record it contains and we feel texas made Great Strides in reporting the Mental Health and violence disqualifiers to it. This is in large part due to funding received from the federal government that enabled fex to concentrate efforts on improving records available to nix. In fiscal years 2012 and 2013, oc axt received a nix improvement grant from a the United States department of justice to develop a plan for assisting clerks in reviewing cases to identify Mental Health records to be reported. Mental Health Records from texas increased 69 from the time we received the grant and last friday. Oca has been working to ensure records related to Domestic Violence and Family Protection orders are entered into the systems. In fiscal 201, oca received another grant from doj to improve reporting of Domestic Violence related records in the database. Oca established a task force to study the issue and make recommendations to improve reporting. The task force developed five training models to report to databases and improved timely ns in entering the records. Those became texas law that now requires court clerks and Law Enforcement to transmit Family Violence protective orders within three days after the protective order is entered. Prior to this, texas law was sile silent. Without the federal funding, the significant improvements in texas likely would not have occurred. Perhaps the greatest challenge facing state courts today that want to report records is the issue of resources. Most courts have few resources to devote to developing improvements in the transmittal of these records. Thank to senator cornyn for his bill. It reauthorizes the Grant Programs i previously described. The bill provides good authorization funding levels for these programs and we ask congress fully fund an appropriation for the Grant Programs. Because of the particular challenges state courts have in auto mating and transmitting records to federal repositories, we ask they also be included in the state level and the disbursement of federal funding by state executive agencies for these purposes. Because the nix system queries records from three databases, its difficult for state courts and other agencies to verify the number of records available to nix. The inability to determine whether it contains the appropriate number of records anticipated, limits the ability if there are systemic issues with reporting. We suggest states be given access to reports to verify the numbers available to the nix system. In closing i want to express my appreciation for the state courts role in improving nix. Look forward to working with the committee to develop legislation that addresses the short comings and varied needs across the country. The National Interest in ensuring that our judiciary and courts be part of the solution. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on these important matters and i look forward to answering any questions you might have. Chairman grassley, Ranking Member feinstein and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here. An attorney in private practice, done significant litigation on the brady act, the nix law on technical firearms issues and technical firearm definitions in the gun control act. I was privileged to represent a majority of members of both houses of congress in the security brief filed in d. C. Versus heller. Everybody here is on the same page in terms of we deplor the violence thats taken place and sympathize with the victims. I think the problem is what are the solutions. One thing i think everybody is on same page about, particularly the nix the nix fix nix act. Whats inkredibility, theres been a duty all of these years ever since nix was initiated in 1988, that the records be reported from federal departments and agencies. The improvement act directly stated departments and agencies had to report the records and theres been no oversight. Weve had so many new laws being advocated to make life harder and dont have enforcement whats on the books. Demoating people or firing them is what you do to discipline employees. And instead were to the point we have to political employees will not get bonus pay. Theres some improvements that could be taken place with the fix nix bill particularly involving were denying agencies initiate correction of records with originating agencies, we have a nix appeals when people are wrongly deny, theres a problem with putting the onus on the person denied and not doing things that the nix system to verify and correct records knowing it takes system and state ee quifl lens of that. Its a complex situation, ill move onto the the automatic gunfire prevention act which doesnt apply to automatic gunfire, explicitly states it does not refer into machine guns. The language thats disturbing in this legislation is this would ban any part thats designed or functioned to ak sell rate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle. If you understand anything about firearms you understand that trigger pull has a lot to do with rate of fire. You could have a tenpound trigger pull and if you have a gun smith change that part so its more efficient, more reliable and more accurate, youre going to enr increase poo potentially the rate of fire. Theres several other aspects about trigger pull, how smooth they can be. Again, these are gun smithing terms, the word trigger creep the more you decrease that, the potentially the higher the rate of fire. That raises the question you could ban any semiautomatic rifle based on a gun smithing job. Were not talking about bump fire stocks but simple mechanisms that raises Second Amendment issues. The heller case held the Second Amendment protects firearms that are commonly possessed by law abiding people for lawful purposes and majority of firearms are semiautomatic. Theres also a vagueness problem with the definition. How would one know if you have a trigle pull down, job done that instead of taking 1. 4 seconds to pull the trigger, might take 1. 2 seconds. You would need specialized equipment and Specialized Knowledge to have any idea of that. Particularly, when we Start Talking about the penalties here, we have ten years incarceration with no willfulness requirement. The same thing if youre a fell on in possession with a firearm. We dont even have a definition of those in this legislation and as the atf acting director noted some people can learn how to do a bump fire on a rifle without any special device on it. Youve got to have a definition. Its not a conversion kit. You had some discussion proposed rule making and we have to keep in mind we always like clarification from atf. This body makes criminal laws, not an agency. Ill close by mentioning that all previous gun control legislation, you either have a grandfather clause or amnesty for legislation. The nfa passed amended in 1968, you had an a. M. Necessarity for firearms illegal after that date and a grandfather clause when youre talking about incarcerating people for ten years with no willfulness requirement, we need to be some kind of have some kind of discussion about what do you do with all of those that are out there and with machine guns you have a grandfather and you have those that are registered or continue to be lawful. And youre going to take a something not even a a weapon and give these draconian theres got to be some kind of way to ameal yor ate that situation. Chief . Chairman grassley, Ranking Member feinstein. Thank you for holding this hearing. Its i know its a very politically sensitive issue but its an important one we need to talk about. Im here representing local Law Enforcement and Largest Police agencies around the country. And im here to speak for the men and women who speak to gun violence every day and for the victims of gun violence and to speak for the officers who have been killed by gun violence. On behalf of american Law Enforcement, its our greatest hope that democrats and republicans can come together and adopt issues to protect the public from harm because Public Safety should not be a partisan issue. Gun violence continues to be the number one threat for homicides and major cities. Worse yet our nation has witnessed a number of devastating mass murders as the shooting in Sutherland Springs and others we discussed here today have demonstrated. We need to come together to protect the public. A device that results in a military attack equivalent to a full automatic firing must be stopped. Bump stocks and similar devices have no legitimate sporting or hunting purpose. Likewise, the screening process for individuals looking to purchase firearm or ammunition, has had many loopholes for far too long and the nix system must be strengthened. Heathers testimony was pro found. The attend ees at this Music Festival in vegas, experienced a horrific hail of gunfire, 1100 rounds in a matter of minutes. The worst mass murder in the ou of a device you must prohibit, a bump stock. 12 of the 23 guns were outfitted with a bump stock accessory that you are considering today. He was able to fire approximately 90 rounds every ten seconds. 90 rounds every ten seconds into the crowd below. This deadly device has only one purpose, enables a gunman to fire rounds at the speed equivalent to that of a an automatic firearm without removing his finger from the trigger. While its illegal to possess fully auto mated weapons, bump stocks are legal. The sole purpose is to accelerate the rate of fire. Exactly what congress has attempted to stop with previous legislation that bars fully automatic weapons. To prevent such horrific mass murders in the future the Chiefs Association strongly supports senator feinsteins proposal to ban bump stocks and similar devices and im entering in the record from joe lombard do in which he likewise calls for action by congress. A broad systemic weakness in the nix system. A 26yearold gunman enters first Baptist Church where he injures 20 others. Wearing a Tactical Gear and ar ruger 556 semiautomatic rifle. Walked up and down the aisles of the church firing into the pews. Law enforcement found 15 ar15 rifle magazines, each one capable of holding 30 rounds. This hearing today as its demonstrated, this killer should have been been barred from the purchase of firearms because of Mental Health history. He was charged with assaulting his wife and fracturing his childs skull, he openly made Death Threats against the superior officers who charged him and caught sneaking firearms on the air force base where he worked. This case also raises a broader question for the committee. Does the current nix law adequately cover Mental Health and Domestic Violence . The Sutherland Springs shooter was admitted to a Mental Health care facility after the threats against others and himself. He escaped from that facility and apprehended and brought back to be taken for courtmartial and later found he United Statesed used computers to order numerous weapons and Tactical Gear. Allowing a prohibited person to purchase multiple weapons. Thats why we strongly support senator cornyns proposal to strengthen nix. A fix nix act is a major step to strengthen Communications Communication efforts to ensure federal agencies and states will produce implementation plans and correct current deficiencies in persons not allowed to purchase firearms. The fire chief supports the measure and goes further to call on congress to expand background checks. Sheriff joe lombardo calls on congress to swiftly adopt the long overdue measure to xren then nix. These incidents are only the most recent reminders of what we all have already known. We knew it after charleston, South Carolina where nine parishioners killed by a white supremacist or tucson, with Gabby Giffords was shot by deranged shooter, 13 other people injured, six people killed. Blacksburg, virginia, 22 people shot by a mentally ill person. It is focused on cases that should have barred a person from a licensed dealer. This is incomplete and only part of the problem. A man was a man in morgantown, West Virginia was able to buy a gun and murder four people. A felony kidnapping and sentenced to ten years in prison for abducting a former girlfriend. This should have prevented him from being able to purchase a fire diagnose arm or ammunition as a background check would have been flagged with the felony convictions. He was able to buy a. 9 millimeter hand gun through a purchase on facebook. We ask the committee, why does congress require background checks for some purchases but not all of them . You should not consider strengthening nix without considering how background checks may be expanded to cover all gun purchases. In a letter submitted regarding the recent texas shooting he notes even if the killer had been barred from buying from a licensed gun dealer he could have purchased the weapon elsewhere. This is not a controversial topic. 91 in a recent gallop poll, 91 of americans would vote for a measure requiring criminal background checks on all gun sales. Ill close where i began. I call for a coalition to curb gun violence, we ask today you make today the beginning of a presencive dialogue to strengthen legislation to curb gun violence. The two measures before the committee will take us down a path to meaningful reform and protection of the public and should also be the first steps towards reducing gun violence. I will tell you the chiefs and sheriffs of this country will be with you every step of the way. Thank you. Thank you, chief. Thank you Ranking Member feinstein. I most preently represented the National Sheriffs association in the u. S. Supreme court in the petition of the case of colby versus hogan asking to overturn marylands excessive arms prohibition laws, ive represented Law Enforcement, a large Law Enforcement Coalition Led by the International Trainers association, the main body for the Law Enforcement officers who trained the rest of Law Enforcement. I represented them in the Supreme Court in mcdonald versus chicago and district of colombia versus heller and colorado sheriffs and many Law Enforcement organizations in support of Second Amendment rights. On the evening before the tv coverage again, a twitter user provided a video showing the hotel tower and crowd. It sounded like automatic gunfire. There is much we didnt know about the crime. We do know the criminal used bump stocks that allowed him to fire regular semiautomatic guns as fast as a full automatic. Under current federal law, the laws for automatics are very stringent. In district of colombia versus heller, the Supreme Court suggested such guns are not protected by the Second Amendment. If a device makes an ordinary gun capable of sustained automatic fire, then it should be regulated similarly to an automatic itself. Under the 1934 National Firearms act, many devices that make a normal firearm fire like a full automatic are already highly regulated. Based on the wording of the statute, atf correctly ruled that bump stocks are not within the scope of the present statute. Congress not the atf has the authority to change the law. Any realistic new law must account for people who already own the items in question. When there are tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of such people being realistic is especially important. Unfortunately, s 1916 has no provision for grandfathering. It takes effect 180 days after enactment so current owners have 180 days to destroy their property. Some will but others will be driven underground and pushed outside the lawful system. A better policy and precedent have been adopted by the atf when items are reclassified. In 1994 the atf decided three particular models of shotguns were covered by the 1934 National Firearms act and therefore had to be federally registered. Because atf was changing its mind about guns that previously had been bought and sold as ordinary guns not as special items, atf offered a sevenyear Registration Period and waived the 200 tax per gun that could have been imposed. This appropriate kept more arms in the legal system than a more draconian approach would have. If a law provider for grandfathered registration submitted more new sales to the string ent system of the National Firearms act it would likely pass constitutional muster with the courts. Heller indicates full automatics are outside the scope of the Second Amendment and bump stocks degrade accuracy and make it less suited for selfdefense or hunting and lawful use has been the range novelties and not selfdefense items. Unfortunately, the bills definition doesnt define a bump stock but it does go much further. It prohibits anything that is designed or functioned to ak sell rate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle but not convert it into a machine gun. This is insane extremely overbroad. One thing that functions to ak sell rate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic are gun cleaning tools. When you remove the debris from gun powder and lead residue you make the parts move together better. As with any mechanical tool, cleaning it makes it work faster. Certainly the sponsor didnt intend to yoult yoet law gun cleaning tools but thats how the poorly written language goes. Likewise, as dr. Hallbrook testified, if you change the trigger pull from six pounds to four because your Hand Strength isnt as strong as the average person, that would be prohibited. In fact, all of the people who have had trigger jobs done in the past, their arms would be retroactively outlawed and they would become 150year federal fell ones. Other things that function, including better grips such as replacing a forward grip that came from the factory with a molded grip that helps the person stabilize the rifle and be able to fire it faster. Anything that helps with stability, that reduces shoulder pain, advil or things that reduce the recoil that a user feels help the user stable isz the firearm and therefore help in effect function to accelerate the rate of fire. Guns operate by the expanding the gas energy. Some of that gas energy goes forward to push the bullet down the gun and out the muzzle and some of it comes backward to the user felt recoil and some dissipates elsewhere. Anything that improves the efficiency of the gun will accelerate the rate of fire. These changes might only be acceleration of the rate of a few thousandths or tenths of a second but they are all captured by the generic catch all language. The bill would be significantly improved if it were only about bump stocks and not about other items. Thank you very much. I think youve answered it but im going to ask it anything about senator feinsteins bill criticized as overly broad. In your opinion would such a law survive constitution scrutiny mr. Holbrook and mr. If it was limited only to bump stocks or included any part that right now im asking the question on the way its written. The way its written, the Second Amendment would ban commonly passed semiautomatic rifles, that is the heller test in the Supreme Court case. And this goes back to a tennessee Supreme Court case from the 1870s thats been very influential. Anders versus state that said part of the right to arms includes gun repair and taking the gun to a place from a place for repair. By outlawing ordinary repairs and similar modifications, this would seriously violate the Second Amendment. Okay, and followup, more generally is there a danger that regulation restrictsing firearms or accessories based on rate of fire could be used to restrict semiautomatic weapons from the two of you as well. It would potentially ban any semiautomatic rifle that applies specifically to semiautomatic rifle parts and any kind of part that is more efficiency in some other slower part would be accomplished in the language. Yes, semiautomatics are theres a big difference between a full automatic and semiautomatic. As i said somebody say wit, different from calling them a half witness. Theres been too much of an effort in sometimes to conflate semiautomatics which fire only one round when the trigger is pulled with automatic guns which fire continuously. But bump stocks are something that takes things over the line and turns a normal gun into something that effectively fires as fast as a full automatic. Legislation which respects due process but restricted bump stocks would not violate the Second Amendment and i think would be reasonable. Two of you again on atf announcing that they going to see if they can issue regulation, whether or not they are going to issue regulations in your analysis, how might bump stock fit in the current statutory definition of machine gun, i should let you answer that question. Theres two types of opinions that atf has set forth. A bump stock that doesnt use any mechanical device like a special spring would not be a machine gun conversion kit. Theres an atf ruling and i cite the number in my testimony where atf found that because of the use of a spring that makes the mechanism work more in an automatic way, that that type of bump stock would be in the conversion language but when you look at the atf letters about approving other bump stocks that do not have any such function where you end up with a Manual Movement thats required for every shot, equivalent to a single pull the trigger. Thats why the word bump stock itself is ambiguous. You have anything to add . Yes, the National Firearms acts of 1934 defines a machine gun as something that fires two or more rounds by a single function of the trigger. Thats the statute that atf has to apply. It doesnt seem that a bump stock fits within that. It doesnt youre still getting it doesnt make one trigger pull fire multiple rounds. So ill be intrigued to see if how atf works its way through that statutory language. Given the high level of chevron deference used by the courts, sometimes imaginative readings of statutes have been upheld on judicial review. Again to the two of you, what should be done of bump stocks with them that have already been purchased by consumers and that will be my last question. Well, theres two choices that we have precedents for in the gun control act and historical origins of it. Number one, you could allow bump stocks to be registered and grandfathered as was done multiple times. In 1986 you have more an expansion of the machine gun Conversion Court definition for example and grace period in which they were allowed to be registered. After that date could not be manufactured. Or you could have complete grandfathering of those that were in existence on the date of enactment or Effective Date as was done with magazines and semiautomatic rifles banned under the 1994 legislation. So you could have a grandfather clause, thats completely the band doesnt apply to anything made before that date or a Registration System as with the nfa where you would register items up to that point. Do you have anything to add . If theres no grandfathering, then the items get driven into the black market which could make things more dangerous. Senator feinstein. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, i want to point out that california has had a law in effect since january 1, 2012 which essentially says a trigger activating device constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic firearm, it increases the rate of fire of that firearm. And that is prohibited and there has been no case brought in court against it. Im not wed to any language. We try to make this simple and direct and understandable. And anything in it can be changed but the point is that its unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacturer or transfer or possess a trigger crank, a bump fire device or any part combination of parts component device attachment or accessory thats designed or functions and heres the key, to accelerate the rate of fire in a semiautomatic rifle. But not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machine gun. So i can certainly change the language but i think that this is worthy, it was drafted by attorneys who know their stuff. So we will see. But chief, i wanted to thank you and i wanted to thank your organization, you always have been standup and its really appreciated. Everything in this area is tufr tough to get done. And its just an amazing thing as i sit here and i see what happens in this country and it gets worse and worse and worse and the bodies cant step up and do anything about it. This is one small thing that could be done, that could make a change that hopefully could keep these things off the market. But i really want to Say Something to you, heather. Ive had occasion just in a small way to find a colleague of mine that had just been shot to death. I know a little bit about what its like. But on a microlevel in comparison to what you experienced. You are one strong woman. I want you to know that. I want you to feel it. I want you to hold your head high. What you did most people could not. And i am just so proud of you. So i want to say on behalf of all of us, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Durbin, senator durbin. Let me join the chorus, heather. I know youre a native of illinois, grew up there and thank you for telling your story. Im sorry you had to tell it but we need to see that these gun tragedies are real human beings who are dying in front of us and we need to do more to stop it. We have two tragedies here. We have the tragedy in las vegas, tragedy in texas which have been referred to and two different circumstances. A little bit different circumstances in one, the man in texas never should have had a firearm. The system failed. But the system is not perfect nor is it designed to be even close to perfect. There are loopholes in the system. There are ways to avoid a background check and buy a gun. I know that. 40 of the crime guns used for murder in the city of chicago, come from joining jurisdictions and gun shows where theres no background check. So to say were going to fix nix, the evenly wonly way to re, it pledge to every firearm sale, otherwise we say tsa check every other airline passenger. We would never say that. When it comes to the sale of guns we say that in america. The other thing is the nature of the weapons involved. Assuming the Second Amendment constitutional right to bear firearms, does anyone imagine and im sure everyone realizes what im saying is an exaggeration, that our Founding Fathers fought that gave an american citizen the right to own a firearm that discharged 480 rounds in that church in texas and 1100 rounds in las vegas. How does that fit into the notion of selfdefense or the use of firearms for sport or hunting . It doesnt. I think future generations may take a look at this hearing and play it back and say my goodness, they were Walking Around the obvious. There are weapons there that only have one purpose, mass killing. Thats what its about. It doesnt have anything to do with shooting ducks or deer. If you needed that kind of weapon to shoot a deer, you ought to stick to fish. You know, that is a fact. We seem to have agreed, nobody argues with the notion of banning automatic weapons. No one said thats unconstitutional. At least i dont think so. We accept that. But when you can take a semiautomatic weapon and make it virtually an automatic weapon, now weve got a big debate here as to whether thats banning advil as mr. Koppel drew an analogy, ill remember that one for a long time. In terms of whether or not you could have repetitive use of a firearm. I dont get that argument. Today its bump stocks and tomorrow it will be something else. I was on your assault weapons bill how many years ago was that senator feinstein . 1993. Well, i think that was the right thing to do and it ended up that the firearms industry just inverted their way around the bill. Theyll invent their way around bump stocks too to finds another way for people to charge hundreds if not thousands of rounds killing innocent people. Weve got to come to grips with the reality here as the chief said when 91 of the American People say to us, for goodness sakes, be sensible, use common sense when it comes to background checks, use common sense when it comes to firearms, even firearm owners are saying that to us. We cant hear it in congress. Were not paying enough attention to hear it and do something about it. If youre allowed to carry into one state, you can carry into another with impunity. I think its misguided and its dangerous for the community. And dank rougs fgerous for my p officers. I will tell you they did help in that situation but there are many, many more, hundreds of times more situations where someone with a gun inserts themselves into a situation thinking that a firearm will solve a problem. As a cop with ive been a cop for 40 years, i know this from firsthand experience, that theres only a rare occasion when the use of a gun is lawful, appropriate and necessary. And suj land springs may have been one of those situations but the presence of a gun in my view only increases the danger to the community and my Police Officers. Thanks, mr. Chairman. I think youll be the last one. Thank you chairman grassr rl and Ranking Member feinstein. I want to thank this panel for your testimony and particularly heather for your testimony and for the insight that you give all of us and everybody who is watching about what the horrific experience of being a victim of gun violence and around those who are struggling to survive an incident like this go through. As you may know, im from wilmington, delaware, we had a great deal of gun violence in our little city over the last few years and ive met with families of victims of gun violence, none of the incidents is massive or as tragic or overwhelming as the one youve survived. Are there things you would like us as members of congress to know about your experience that you havent had the opportunity to share . Or is it best if i just thank you for your testimony today and move on . Well, thank you for thanking me. I dont feel like everybody who was there did what they had to do. But you know, at any point you expected to turn around and see this guy or men or women running through here with machine guns. Thats what it sounded like to us. And just from listening to what everybody has said, gun, ougaga automatic weapons are not allowed. Why is a piece of equipment that turns a semiautomatic into an automatic allowed . Now its an automatic weapon. Thats just what ive gotten from listening to everybody. And it doesnt matter if its a one on one gun or snomebody shooting from the 32nd floor into a crowd of 22,000, it affects all of us. We become members of this family, this community that none of us want to be a part of and were in it for the rest of our lives and it affects us for the rest of our lives. None of us will ever get over it. If theres anything we can do to stop this from happening, next week, next month, next year, if we can stop somebody from walking into a festival and into a church or school and then we need to do Everything Possible to make this not happen ever or as often as it is. Thank you. Thank you for that passionate reminder that the struggle to turn loss and suffering into positive Forward Motion is one of the most inspiring common features of everyone who has had this kind of experience. Chief, if i might, you may or may not i was a county executive before becoming a u. S. Senator and was honored to have the opportunity to serve alongside a county police force of about 480 sworn officers. I asked a question in the Previous Panel about officer safety and how we are putting atf officers, agents at risk by asking them to go and try to locate and secure weapons that may have been inappropriately secured. Id be interested in hearing more from you about how if the fix nix act passes, what other gaps are there that would allow dangerous individuals to acquire firearms and what are the main challenges facing local Law Enforcement when working with federal agencies to prosecute illegal firearm purchases . Do you think it would enhance Public Safety if more illegal firearm purchases were prosecuted . And do you think it would enhance officer safety if local Law Enforcement was notified when there is a failed background check . To your last two questions, yeah, the answer is yes. I think that the biggest gap we have is the gun show loophole. We can fix nix but if people are still allowed if we do not accompany that with universal background checks, a background check on every single gun purchase, then there is a huge gap in what we need to do. I think that firearm violence is probably one of the most challenging things for cities around this country. Especially the major urban areas. And anything that we can do and i will tell you the atf has been phenomenal working with local Law Enforcement. The u. S. Attorneys Office Around the country have worked closely with federal prosecutions which are tremendously effective, often times more effective than what we can do at the state level. And so i think that the relationship is there and its it is effective. So im you asked me several questions and i think i hit on all of them. I appreciate your testimony to the effect that it would help promote officer safety and help promote the cooperation between federal and state and local Law Enforcement if failed background checks produced notification to state and local Law Enforcement and if more illegal firearm purchases were prosecuted. I do think theres a big divide between most members of our two Major Political parties on whether we should do things that outlaw particular devices or styles of weapons but what i hear from gun owners and from Police Officers and from civic activists in my home state and home city, why cant we start by strengthening the background Check Systems we have, by strengthening the resources for federal state and local Law Enforcement and by doing our best to make sure those who should not have access to weapons dont in the have been the focus of this hearing today, we had one individual who absolutely should not have been able to purchase weapons, who tragically did and murdered many. And another who modified legal weapons in a way that made it deadly effective in a way that i think should be illegal. So chief, thank you for your service, and thank you for your testimony today. And id like to thank the entire second panel and senator blumenthal for your leadership on this important issue. Thank you. Thanks senator coons. I seem to be the last senator here. And even though im not a member of the majority, ive been asked by senator grassley to ask my questions, and i think at that point we are probably in a position to adjourn. And i just want to thank all of you for being here today. Both of these panels have been really excellent and have given us both facts and perspectives that are extremely valuable. And i particularly want to thank you, heather, for the courage and strength to be here today, knowing from other families who have been before this panel the kind of fortitude that it takes not only to do what you did, but then to relive it as youre doing now. So my thanks, i think, from all of us on the panel. And i want to, if i may, ask mr. Slayton, you mentioned the importance of resources. And im wondering if you could give us some specifics in amounts of money that were necessary for texas to improve its system and also exactly why thats important. Is it Computer Software . Is it people . If you could give us some more specifics. Thank you, senator. In texas, the resources that the grants that we received from the federal government were i can get you the specific amounts but it was somewhere less than half a Million Dollars over a couple of years that we received. We used the funding to be able to literally hire staff to go out and review records as was mentioned earlier by one of the panelists we went back 20 years to review all the records that should potentially be in the nix system and made sure they were. We assisted the counties and jurisdictions and clerks offices across the state in finding the records and entering them into the nix system where appropriate. So thats one thing, is using resources of staff who can go out and literally go out and be a task force or a force to go out and sort of work through those historical records. Going forward from that, one of the things we found helpful is of course providing training and ongoing training to make sure that individuals who were responsible for these functions understand exactly what it is they needed to be doing, whether that be Online Training or face to face training and making sure manuals and task forces are in place. From that perspective, thats one of the issues. And you mentioned this, but the other side of the coin is the issue of automation. When people are involved and having to do this on a manual basis it produces the risk of someone missing something. If we can use an Automated System that can truly identify these and put them up on the system automatically that works better and certainly that takes money to make that happen in many jurisdictions. Weve had some questions about Domestic Violence and the relationship between Domestic Violence and gun violence. And i think the statistic that ive heard repeated many times is that a woman is five times more likely to die if there is a firearm in the home during an incident of Domestic Violence. I dont know what the basis for that number is, but would any of you disagree that gun violence is far more likely or i should say, Domestic Violence is far more likely to be deadly and far more injurious if there are guns involved . Chief. Senator, we are many of the homicides that occur in this country are domestic related. There have been studies, extensive studies done about what were the red flags that folks might have been able to see when you start off with, you know, two folks just arguing or getting in fights, to progressing to a homicide. And what these studies taught us, we have put together whats called a lethality assessment tool. Every time one of my cops goes to a call for Domestic Violence there is a checklist of about a dozen questions. And they ask things like has the person ever threatened your children . Has the person ever choked you . One of the questions is do they own a firearm . The reason that question is in there is because that has been determined to be under certain circumstances been determined to be a red flag. So there is definitely you can connect the dots between some behavior, Domestic Violence, and the possession of a firearm that would increase likelihood of there being a homicide at some point in the case. I appreciate your answer, and i agree with your conclusion. Thats one of the reasons why i have sponsored a measure called Lorie Jackson Domestic Violence protection act. Lorie jackson was a woman in connecticut who was killed by her estranged husband while he was under a temporary protective order. Not a permanent one, but a temporary one. And women are killed, principally women, by their intimate partners while under temporary protective orders which are issued in the first ten days or two weeks, during the time when the level of rage is greatest. In other words, the danger to the woman is highest, and they are least protected. So the Lorie Jackson victims protection act would extend that coverage to victims of Domestic Violence who were protected by temporary orders. The law now applies only to permanent orders. Likewise, another loophole in the current law is the 72hour exception. Im sure you are familiar with it. If a beckground check isnt complete in 72 hours, the purchase can go forward. Even if the purchaser is ineligible under the current federal law. Its a loophole. Ive called it the charleston loophole because dillon roof in charleston was able to purchase a firearm only because of that loophole. He would have been he was ineligible under the current laws. So there are loopholes even under the current nonuniversal background check system that would make enforcement of the current law more effective. And more broadly, we need universal background checks is my personal belief, as well as other measures, commonsense measures that will help prevent gun violence. My time has long expired, and i want to thank the chairman for his indulgence. And again for his holding this hearing which i think shows the ability of this panel to disagree and we do disagree, but still want to explore and elicit all the facts that are important and all the perspectives. Thank you all. At the end here, i thank you, and i suppose most of us in congress dont appreciate all the work you have to do to get prepared for this, but thank you. And were going to continue to consider this issue very much. Thank you all for your being here. Hearing adjourned. Next, Supreme Court oral argument in a case to legalize sports gambling in new jersey. Then a discussion about terrorism and isis in north africa, followed by part of a conference on u. S. Military cooperation with south korea, and later, in primetime, beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, a look at the role of the u. S. Navy in global security. Tonight on cspan, a look at defense funding and readiness with military and elected officials. And executives from the defense industry. They discuss the equipment and people required to handle current and future global conflicts. Heres a preview. Obviously going to defend ourselves against a Nuclear North Korea and if god forbid iran becomes a Nuclear Weapon state, were going to defend ourselves against them too. Were going to keep fighting ato terrorists, unfortunately, and we have europe and asia traditionally congressman gallagher was saying this morning, have been areas where we have not wanted to see dominated by another hostile power, and were going to continue to do that, i think. So everyones candidate for this that were going to scale back our ambitions are going to be the middle east. And god knows, i would love to, for the region to return to the obscurity it so richly deserves, but thats just not going to happen. Its going to continue to impose itself on us. Were talking about risk and or resources. When we talk about resources, i think everyone automatically goes to the issue, this is the budget, the top line, how do we increase it . It also is intellectual resources. How do we think about fighting these potential conflicts in the future differently . You can watch the discussion about defense in its entirety from the Reagan National Defense Forum in simi valley, california, tonight at 8 00 eastern on cspan. The second session of the 115th Congress Gets under way this week with the senate returning on wednesday. That day will see the swearing in of two new democratic lawmakers. Doug jones of alabama and tina smith of minnesota. The house returns the following week on monday. In the new year, Congress Faces a government funding deadline with temporary spending set to expire on january 19th. Also on the calendar, this years state of the Union Address from President Trump before a joint session of congress. As always, you can watch the house live on cspan and see the senate on our companion network, cspan2