Theater, National Archives staff and volunteers will present each of you with a lapel pin. United states of america vietnam War Corporation is an initiative and the lapel pin is the nations lasting memento of thanks. Tonights program is one in a series of events we are presenting in conjunction with our new exhibit, remembering vietnam, which just opened upstairs. The exhibit is a media rich exhibition of the vietnam war, featuring historic analysis and newly discovered iconic original documents, some footage, and artifacts illuminating 12 critical episodes in the war that divided the peoples of the United States and vietnam. Remembering vietnam draws on remembering vietnam draws on National Archives records for all parts of our agency. President ial library, still photography, sound recordings, electronic records. The title of the exhibit, remembering the non bering yet non vietnam was inspired by a quote, all wars are fought twice, the first on a battlefield, the second time in memory. Documents and artifacts we display help us sort through the lessons of the war, but those lessons are also formed by memory. I look forward to stimulating discussion. Its my pleasure to welcome peter white line to the stage. Since 2003, he served as the officer of the former members of congress. To reconnect citizens with their representative government. He plans and directs all policies and initiatives for the association represents them in , the community, and serves as its spokesperson to the public, in media, and the public. He holds two degrees from Pennsylvania State university, attended law school in berlin, and completed his studies at the Catholic University of america. Ladies and gentlemen, please me peter white klein peter weichlein. Thank you for the introduction, and thank you all for joining us tonight for this discussion. I realized on the only thing standing between you and the outstanding panel we assembled. In that spirit, i will be brief. I do want to get in a quick word on the association and the work we do. We bring together, under the fmc umbrella, a Bipartisan Group of former senators and representatives, who Work Together on a wide variety of projects. Our mission includes strengthening the work of the Current Congress by deepening the understanding of our democratic system by focusing on Civic Education and encouraging public service. You can find much more information on our website, usafmc. Org. Tonights panel is an example of fmcs work on issues that affect our nation and democracy. The vietnam era profoundly impacted our nations psyche. The tremendous exhibit that opened a week ago here at the National Archives as well as the 10 part ken burns documentary that aired last month, made that abundantly clear. Through Tonights Panel we want , to explore some of the impacts. We want to take a look at lessons we have learned, lessons alsoould have learned, and want to compare the challenges we faced as a nation in the 1960s and 1970s, and compare that to america 50 years later. To do so, we have recruited an excellent panel. Unfortunately, secretary chuck hagels schedule changed rk bauer changed his schedule to be with us tonight. Please welcome our panel and please hold your applause until all of them have joined me on stage. Moderating this important conversation will be leonard steinhorn, professor of communications in history at american university, a political analyst for cbs news radio, as well as a political commentator for numerous news outlets. He has books examining american politics and culture, with a particular focus on the 1960s and race relations. Jim jones is a former member of congress from oklahoma as well as the former ambassador to mexico during the clinton administration. He now serves as chairman of kirk bauer focuses on using sports to help wounded veterans in their rehab. I have known him for over a decade. Hes an inspiration. Harry robinson is an awardwinning architect, who has served for many years on the director of the memorial fund, which develops and maintains the incredibly moving and powerful Vietnam VeteransMemorial Wall on the national mall. Last, but certainly not least, bob carr, a former member of congress from michigan who came to congress in the watergate class, and who was named to the House Armed Services committee when the involvement in Southeast Asia started to wind down. He served in 1995 and now teaches politics and government at George Washington university. With that, lets welcome a great panel with a round of applause. [applause] well thank you all for being , here tonight. Involvement ine the community of ideas, the opportunity to speak about something important in all of our lives and also our history. A special thanks to the National Archives for hosting such an important conversation and doing what we need more of in our society and culture, which are conversations about the past and how they translate to the present, how we make sense of our lives years ago and how they connect to today. Our topic is the vietnam war. Anybody who lived in the 1960s this is a topic that reverberates. Its a flashpoint in every one of our lives. Its a war that divided our country, eroding trust in institutions and individuals. Its a war that arguably germinated culture wars and set apart some of the populism we see today. It is a war that magnified the racial issues in our country at that time. It is a war that arguably undercut Lyndon JohnsonsGreat Society and helped us split apart new deal liberalism, which had been the postwar consensus of that era. Its a war that sort of magnifying the role of the media. To some the media became a hero , and for others the media , became a villain. In a lot of ways, it shook up americas image in the world. Perhaps more important than the issues it raises for the people who live through that era are , the issues it raises for the next generation. We are trying to figure out how the vietnam war shaped who we are today. In a lot of ways, hoping that this conversation can answer questions for the next generation. Idg course on the 1960s in america. On theach a course 1960s in america. Theres a former student from that course in the audience today. He is sort of a testimony to the questions that this generation wants to ask about the war and how it influenced us. They want to know how so many young men in particular, their parents and grandparents, were sent off to war, that our leaders could barely justify. They want to know about that. They want to know how the personal wounds, cultural wounds, political wounds reverberate in our society today. I am hoping we will answer some of those questions for you and for the audience. Im going to kick it off and sort of ask each of you to say, in some ways, how this war changed you personally. Then to magnify it in terms of a , sense of how it sort of reshaped and changed our country. Ambassador jim jones had a very special place in the war. He served in basic training. After that, he didnt go to be a he did not go to vietnam, he went to another place some might call a war zone, which is the Johnson White house. [laughter] first, he served as an Army Intelligence officer, then on the staff of the johnson, and ultimately in the position of appointment secretary, which we now know as chief of staff. Rep. Jones so many things came out from vietnam from my perspective. One of the things, i was the son of a world war i veteran. We had a great sense of volunteering. That was the thing to do in those days. We had a sense of trust in the government. I think the thing that disturbs that disturbed me more than anything else is how information from the front lines could get so distorted by the time it got to the president of the United States that it was not even recognizable. I still havent figured out how that happened, but it did. The other thing, for me personally, it made me much more questioning and much less willing to just take anybodys word for it. When i left the white house, went back to my home state of oklahoma, and ran for congress a four years later, it turns out that, in those days, you could be bipartisan, you could have friends on both sides of the aisle and Work Together. One of the things that i found out after coming to congress, that democrats and republicans alike heard from their , constituency when they were getting elected how government had become estranged to them and they didnt feel any kinship with the government. Among the things we did was to pass the war powers act, which was designed to clip the wings of a president and make him come to congress, the peoples body, to get approval for the introduction of military personnel on foreign land. On foreign lands. That worked for a while. Now, i think we do need to rediscover that and perhaps put some sort of program like that in. Prof. Steinhorn kirk, in 1969, you were in vietnam. You received two bronze stars for heroism and a purple heart. Obviously, the vietnam war had a deeply personal impact on your life. Please say how, sort of a larger sense of how it changed who you are. Mr. Bauer first of all, my perspective is going to be a little less elevated. I was a noncommissioned officer, one of the grunts on the ground in the ninth infantry division. Actually, even now, still very much ground level because one of the things that when i got hit and lost my leg, my life changed, personally and physically, forever. I became a person with a disability. I didnt know what that would mean. I was a young recruit. Suddenly, i had a tube coming out of me, pins in me. It was a devastating experience. Personally, it affected me, but one of the things it did do was to get me focused on what really helped turn my life around and save my life. For us, it was a Sports Program militaryv. A. And offered to get us back into life again. We now focus on health care, physical activity, the war fighters Sports Program, in serving the warriors with the sports rehabilitation program. We do see now, one of the Lessons Learned, is there is much more of a focus on the complete care for the wounded and health and wellness activities that are going on. Education is the key to getting the jobs. The jobs are the endpoint. Everything we are doing for our wounded and those transitioning out of the military. It changed the course of my life. Prof. Steinhorn we have a sense of our relationship with government, we have a sense of our relationship with veterans. Harry robinson, you went straight to vietnam after Army Ranger School in 1967. You were a platoon leader. You were scheduled in a very dangerous place in vietnam, close to the cambodian border. Mr. Robinson the notion of patriotism and listen to the government ran very strong in my family. When the Second World War came around, all the males in my family served in the military. My uncle was the highest ranked negro when he retired from the service in 1954. His grandson had two sons that two sons both graduated from west point. When he was in the white house, he was johnsons military aid. In vietnam, i tried to get an assignment that he didnt want me to have. He said it was too dangerous. I wrote him letters, called him. Go to the First Division would First Division, it would be a safe place to be. That wasnt quite true. [laughter] mr. Robinson the change to my life runs that i did ranger school, vietnam, then grad school. When i went to grad school, i was a very difficult graduate student because i wasnt afraid of anything. My position was what are they , going to do, send me to vietnam if i dont do this paper . It is the notion of personal confidence that came out of that experience, almost at a very high price. It was a gamble i took. I took that gamble because i decided, when i was in my 40s and 50s and 60s, i wanted to be among those young men in the country who are running the country. That plan worked out exactly as i had hoped. Weve had some opportunities to do some things that we would not have done had it not been for the war. The difference between vietnam, soldiers, military, and whats going on now is it to , the end of the war to unite us. And, to save the country from itself. Now, the military is honored as military has honors as they are in a war. Thank you. Horn obviously, it is the question of how vietnam divided us and how people have tried to knit us back together. Bob carr, former member of congress who ran for congress because of vietnam. You were an undergraduate, i think in law school, at the university of wisconsin, which was really one of the hotbed protests at the moment. What has driven your political career and activism is your experience from those years. Mr. Carr my story isnt that remarkable. I was a scrawny kid from janesville, wisconsin, growing up thinking i would be a nuclear physicist. I was there a good and science. I went to the university and signed up for all the science courses, but they made me take a well, they didnt make me. It was required to take a Political Science course. So i took my very first , Political Science course. I can recall that it was a turning point because, with my Nuclear Physics interest and the book that they required us to read, it was kissingers second book, his Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy book. I read that and i thought, oh my goodness, the war is just percolating along. Reached a fever pitch at this point. Like most americans, i had a sense of patriotism. I said the pledge of allegiance, i saluted the flag, and believed what my leaders were telling me. We were fighting communism. The kissinger book sort of slowed me down and caused me to think about some things in ways that i had not thought about them before. My republican upbringing my moderate republican upbringing my father didnt like joe mccarthy. It started to get me to rethink some of the things i was taught at home. Things progressed and i was going to vote for barry goldwater, the first time i could vote for president. Then in may of the election year, he started talking about, well, maybe we got to use Nuclear Weapons in vietnam. I thought it was crazy and i could not vote for him. The protests started percolating said atsaid, as you , the university of wisconsin. They had a protest over dow chemical, which was the very first violent protest. There were many protests about the vietnam war, but this one went violent. The whole campus was in a state of shock. Upon graduation, you had to think about the draft. It was very present in our daily lives, what is going to happen next, what is the draft board going to say, what do we do . It just so happened there were , so i went toment law school and continued to get a draft deferment. I wrote my law school thesis, if you will, it was on the selective services. I had this connection with the draft and with those who were drafted. After leaving wisconsin, i went to michigan. Again, influenced by, among others, participatory democracy, it was an engine for civil rights and the war movement and those kinds of things. I get to michigan and im appointed by a federal judge, mitteran ally, actually, later on, defending people who are claiming conscientious objection. If you are a conscientious objector, the only way you could appeal a draft board decision saying they dont believe you was doing it as a defendant in a federal criminal case. I ended up defending a lot of , and all but one were successful. In congress, i was privileged to put the period at the end of the sentence. On march 12, 1975, it was my resolution to cut off funding for the war in vietnam. Prof. Steinhorn that really just turbocharged your life in so many ways. Thanks for sharing. Im wondering if you think we, as a country, have learned lessons from the vietnam war. What does the philosopher george santa ana say, that those who forget their histories are condemned to repeat it . What lessons might those be coming out of that war . Does anyone take a crack . Ill take a crack at it from a groundlevel. Im going to accuse pete of a bait and switch. You were supposed to get chuck hagel. [laughter] i think one thing that impressed me the most is the public reaction to these current wars and those who served in vietnam. In vietnam, because there was such a division in our country about the war and a real violent hatred for the war, that translated over to some of those guys who served. We were all tainted. It really did affect our psyche in terms of how we felt about ourselves. Now, what the big difference is now whether you are for or against the war, they support the troops and their commitment to serve for this country and sacrifice for this country. I think it came to me rather graphically when i was over here at the 9 30 club, a nightclub and a foundation founded by the grateful dead they were really dead [laughter] but they had this organization that had a foundation and i was get funding for the war fighters program. I thought, boy, things have really changed. I think that is really one of the things. The other couple of things that we are seeing, i went through the rehab program, which was a good program back then to help us get on our feet again. I ended up going to law school through that program. Now, the g. I. Bill is as good as the programs back then that was just for the wounded. That is good. And theres no limits on it. I can tell you, ive been in the deputy secretarys office, arguing cases for those veterans who fell through the cracks and 10 or 15 years later, we were trying to get them back into some rehab. The time had expired. The benefits are available without deferment. Thats an improvement, in my opinion. To focus on ptsd. We didnt even define ptsd coming out of the war. I got discharged on the last day of 1969. I had my first session of ptsd counseling in 1982, when my marriage was falling apart. So, that is different because now, we try to encourage the warriors to get in and see some help. No matter what happens, you do have some posttraumatic stress. We dont want it to become posttraumatic stress disorder. That is when it becomes dysfunctional. Those are some of the positive changes were seeing compared to vietnam. Prof. Steinhorn do you think Vietnam Veterans the narrative early on was very divided. There were lots of issues related to Vietnam Veterans. Do you think our country has welcomed Vietnam Veterans more . Mr. Bauer yes. It was really sad to see people coming back from vietnam or military service and being ashamed of their service because the communities where shaming them basically. Where shaming them, basically. I think thats one of the good things that has happened in the past couple of years, that the human beings who fought this war are being recognized for the patriotism that they exhibited. I think that has an effect on the response of Political Leadership, as well as the large on soldiers who are fighting todays wars. I think that, even though the country was fairly divided on the iraq war, for example, they were not divided on the people who were fighting the war, and they did give them kind of respect that they deserved for doing that. Once again, context is really important. During vietnam, the rotc programs at colleges had full brigades. Every freshman and sophomore was required to take it. That fell apart. When i finished university, six of my classmates were killed in vietnam. In the senior class, we had at least 60 Second Lieutenants who graduated. Knowmany of us do not somebody who is in the military. Almost everybody knew someone wounded or killed in vietnam, that is not the case now. On tv, if you go to arlington you can see it every day. It is not as personal. Theou think about documentary on vietnam, one thing that was missing, everybody who went to vietnam will agree, it was sabotaged. There were no smells that went along with that documentary. You are watching essentially a war cartoon that someone has put together and has put their spin on it. It was not the gritty, grimy, very difficult day on day war that those who went to vietnam experienced. That context influenced what can burns did ken burns did. The only kid that was in the military was one of my graduates who went into rotc. I used to know hundreds of my friends or relatives and associates who were in the military. Not having that intimate relationship with their American Public and much easily best much more easily digested much more easily digest this. Let me flip this question. If we come to terms more with veterans who have thought the war, do you think we would come to terms with the Antiwar Movement overtime . The Antiwar Movement itself was a Major Movement in this country. In many ways, people still harbor resentment about the Antiwar Movement. Thinking it is unpatriotic. I was about to say. Like anything, we tend to think of things as monolithic. The Antiwar Movement was not monolithic. There were deep divisions between those who disrespected the veterans, people who served were blaming veterans rather than the leaders. There were a lot of tension between groups about tactics, respect, those kinds of things very i think, similarly, there are a desk those kinds of things. I think similarly there are vietnam vets who came back and join the movement there are those kinds of things. I think similarly there are vietnam vets who came back and joined the movement. I and two, the american legion, dfw, all these other groups initially had some hard times excepting vets and very it wasnts just thats accepting vets. It wasnt just vets versus these next. I joined the Armed Services committee, i did not serve of the military, but i learned a lot about it or my service on the Armed Services committee. My respect for the military grew and still grows that this day. It we can count on some of the best Lessons Learned being learned in the military. In military doctrine and military manuals. To incorporate the Lessons Learned and pass it on, whereas some of us can learn a lesson but not pass it on. I would like some comments from my colleagues here. I had a little theory. That we learn the limits of military power during the vietnam war. We learned that as a society and culture. That you cant kill an idea with a bullet. There are other things. Diplomats are on the front line. When diplomacy fails you call in the military. I think there was a generation of military leaders, during the vietnam war, who learned that and were a restraining force on civilian Political Leadership and military adventurism. Sadly, they began to retire and age out and a new generation came in. I have always wondered, i thought that the military legacy from goingkept us overboard when we rescued to wait kuwait. A few years later, that military resistance is the to civilian authority began to crumble. Thoughts . After you. Careerism took over. I think we have to keep learning the lessons and we learn the lessons by mistakes we have made. When you get into a higher position, dont make those mistakes again. Then things will along. Roll along. We make the mistake thinking that military can change peoples minds with our might and bring everybody to our way of thinking. That just does not happen. We see that today. I think we still have to relearn those lessons. Can i make a point . Learned totect we think around the box. That was to my advantage in the military. Many of our commanders did not like that i did that. It was always to the advantage of those who were leading and the mission. Im going to give you an example. I use this all the time. When i tell this story i get cold chills. As a particular leader platoon leader in the First Division and they needed somebody to go to a base on the cambodian border. They needed a task force to maintain the cambodian border. The new investor built ammo dumps, prepare for the big battle that was eventually going to happen they needed us to build ammo dons and prepare for the big addled that would eventually happen. The cia had a little cut in the encampment. I would go over and i would get the intelligence reports. I would read it. , my streets instincts from growing up in washington, d. C. Told me this was not right. One of the things that my father did when i was little was take me to the oh Street Market because he lived in that neighborhood. What i discovered from that was that that was the voice of the community. That is where people met. It is where they exchanged ideas and goods and currency. The same thing occurred in vietnam. There was a market. There was a buddhist monastery, a small school, and this market in a town square. I would go there every morning. I would get my jeep and drive over there. The mornings i would go there and they werent speaking, i knew the viet cong and north vietnamese were in the market. I knew they were in the area because they bend could relate to me as the guy who can every morning. I would go back to the cia and say this is wrong. And let me tell you why this is wrong. They would ask me why would you think of that . Because im an architect and i understand places. This is an important place. I will make the story short. We took a delegation of executives who went back to vietnam for the 25th anniversary. Meeting with a big viet cong person who was n presiden i said i am harry robinson. T. She said we did not know what to do with you. We didnt know whether to kill you or capture you. Every morning you would come to the market and walk around and buy things and talk to the vendors and leave. What were you doing . And she said they thought thats what you are doing. Why did the cia think of that . Why didnt the cia think of that . Why hadnt they looked at how people lived there and make that work for them. Them . That helps me a little bit. I mentioned in the beginning that it always puzzled me how the information, when it finally got to the president , was so different from what we heard and what happened on the ground. It used to drive the president crazy. One time i started my day in a prisoners bedroom and the night before we had given them all of his reading. I had basically filtered all of the night reading, the situation reports, intelligence reports, as well as domestic stuff. We would discuss it in the morning and give out assignments. He had three televisions, and those days you only have three networks. He had three televisions in the bedroom watching them all at the same time. Reading the New York Times, the washington post, etc. I came into the bedroom and he was cussing. He said who is this johnny apple. The New York Times reporter. A said, either we have bunch of nincompoops working for us or he is a communist. For the same situation, the same situation, they reports were night and day different. It drove him crazy. That gives me some insight. Some of the other insights were, as he went up in ranks, you did not want to be the one to say that you are failing. You would change it a little bit until it finally got to the president. It was a disservice to the president. I have to ask you on lbj question. How much doubt that he harbor about the escalation of the war . He harbored a lot. We met once a week and had a with dick allens come as cia director, a luncheon every week. He used to press them pretty hard. One time we had a latenight meeting and we were walking to the west wing. , he is going to have to rate me before i give him any me before i give him any more troops. Rephraseght want to your earlier statement about starting your day in his bedroom. [laughter] just a thought. That is the way he works. He works from bad for about does go or three hours in the morning. For abouts from bed two or three hours in the morning. In 1954 he was in the senate, and i did not know him at that time. He was one who was very skeptical of the division of vietnam and he was skeptical all the way through. Through his presidency. It was not that he couldnt win that he did not run, he thought the only way he could get peace in vietnam while he was in office was to not run for office and have complete freedom to do whatever is necessary. It turned out that turned out to be true. We all must have peace in vietnam. Thet had not been for republican candidates getting a message to madame, whats her name, i have lost her name. I am talking about here in washington. She was very close to saigon. , the fbiepted intercepted a message from Vice President candidates agnews plane to her and she relayed the message to saigon to the president of south vietnam, saying hold out. We are Getting Started on the peace negotiations, holdout and nick will give you a better deal. Everything went cold and nixon will give you a better deal. Everything went cold after that. We could have had peace in vietnam and we never got it. We never got it in that respect. Following up on that, politically, are we still fighting the battles of vietnam . I dont think we are. I want to agree with some of the congressmans statements about, when you have seen the horrors of war, i dont care how patriotic or committed you are, it makes you think twice about getting at the war, because you understand from a very human level the cost of the war and the tragedy and horrors of war. Membersthat some of the who have been in the military are sometimes the most hesitant to make that commitment. When you talk about the transition that happens when some of the healthy skepticism, i consider myself healthy fadeic, that started to when the second round of the iraq war started. I think that had to do with a different perspective of people that had not been in the middle war andand a of had also see the pitfalls and fallacies. There was incredible pressure for us at the ground level to report inflated casualties because it was all about body count. It was done. The pressure was creating so estimates, and if you did not want to go into an area that was shot up you would make an estimate. Those were the kinds of things that really bring this false information. Also, one reallife situation was, our captain who we thought was competent, in the middle of the night got us lost. He had to put his spotter light up so that plane could find us. That immediately alerted the viet cong and somebody with a 50 caliber machine gun was molding is a part. To get him outim of the field and put it into intelligence. That actually happened. You just shake your head and say you have got to be kidding me. It does lead to healthy skepticism, not antiwar skepticism. These are the human beings that make mistakes, and as we say, shit happens. There a lot veterans in the congress and there are today there were a lot more veterans in congress than there are today. They are trustworthy of the president ial leadership, of the military leadership. Today, the really arent that many love served in some kind of combat service in the congress. Gone president johnson had to 1h from private up to four star. And asked them, can we win this war . Everyone of them would have said no. From the guy who gets up and drives a bulldozer to his commander, to the Division Commander who are thinkers, they would have said no. Most of them did their time over letswith that in mind, do this, lets do the best we can and get home. You mentioned richard nixon. Richard nixon spoke about the silent majority, and that was a vietnam war speech. He talked about the forgotten america. All of a sudden, 48 years later, donald trump is talking about the silent majority and the forgotten americans. Was this just a mere rhetorical device or is he still carrying some of the issues from the late 1960s until today . Bob . I think there is an element of that. I also think we need to go to Human Behavior too. Our neural bandwidth is limited. People are overwhelmed with information. The complexity and velocity of information today is much greater than it was in the vietnam war era. I think people are really vulnerable. Even more so today than they were then. And then, lenny, we had journalism that was curating our news in a way that made us have faith if not and our leaders, at least in the information we were getting. Today, what is going on . Arguably, some of the resentment towards journalists originated, if lyndon was talking about rw and wondering what his affiliations were. I think it was 1965 in vietnam. There are many who blame journalists for losing the vietnam war. Once again, that cultural touch point remains with us today. I want to turn it over to the audience, give you an opportunity to ask questions. We have microphones on each side. My request is an important one which is, please ask a question, please dont make a statement, and please allow for the opportunity to have a conversation. As a Michigan State graduate from 1979, mr. Carr you were the first congressman i voted for. When we talk about vietnam first versus the treatment of veterans in modern war. From my generation, i never saw vietnam as a win. The veterans from the an encore part of what we saw as a losing war. Afghanistan, iraq, it is hard to call them wins. And the beginning they all had clear victories that sounded like wins. Do you think veterans today would be treated differently if afghanistan and iraq had gone worse . I will offer an opinion. No i dont. Idle think they would be treated differently. I dont think they would be treated differently. The taliban holds about 40 of the country right now. In afghanistan. No, i think that one of the lessons that our society learned and that we have seen is you have to be very supportive as we serve the severely wounded. We serve up to 12,000 civilian wounded. These are guys that have lost limbs and suffered severe dramatic brain injury, very severely injured. We have tremendous support from the public for them and for their recovery. We see a lot of respect. I think that they have separated out the soldier from the politics. Whether they are for or against the war. I think that support, that is one of the things i find most gratifying, the difference between vietnam and now is that the general public really supports our soldiers and support their service and sacrifice. I think that is appropriate and right and good, because it will help them to recover knowing they are appreciated. They are proud of what they did and trying to move forward, despite challenges. I think that is because of the public. I think your question was, what the public cost reaction with the public cost reaction have been different publics reaction have been different if the war went sour and i dont think so. And sports terms we think of there is a winning or losing. There is another term that is gaining rater appreciation. We use the military to buy time. It is not about winning or losing. We have people on the front lines to help us i time, hopefully for diplomacy, but maybe other factors to work. Maybe an election, maybe a change in regime. There is actually a diplomatic use of military force. I think that was not appreciated in the vietnam era. That was all war fighting, winningnning, war and the shame of not doing so. People that win today can do so with a metal for it. There is one other difference which was that there was a draft. There is not a draft now. Do you think that had no impact . Had an impact . Yes. Absolutely. I cant go you how many times ive heard the statement from wounded guys. Up i realizedd this might happen and i accepted that possibility and responsibility. When you are drafted and forced to go in there is resentment because you did not make that choice. There is a difference. I signed up and knew what i was doing, i accepted that danger and that risk. Now im going to have to live with it. Thank you. I also served with the First Infantry Division in 69 and 70. I would like the panelists to address the moral dilemmas that andaced going into the war our consciences following our experiences in vietnam. I was against the war. I was in graduate school at princeton studying public affairs. I read several books on the war. I thought it was strategically stupid and it was deeply, morally wrong. , thei was at Princeton University offered us lawyers and doctors to help us avoid the draft. When that offer was made, i left feeling absolutely dirty. Awayould go three blocks into the africanamerican neighborhoods of princeton and there was not a storefront lawyer helping these kids get out area while i was get out. Iile i was against the war have to face the choice, do i earn my draft card burn my draft card a go to canada with would have lifelong costs for my career or do i go along with it . I did get a draft notification and i went along with it. What i saw in vietnam, the misrepresentation of body counts, i saw it personally. I was disgusted with my experience in vietnam. When i returned to the u. S. I threw away my bronze star and threw away i accommodation. Etals Commendation Medals i was embarrassed and ashamed that i had served. I would have felt even more shame if i had refused to go. It is a conscience that i am still grappling with. I am just wondering if the panelists could address that. Ways that many of the troops in country can go , the nature of the war, the rejection of the war, was to do as much good as they could every chance they got. Medics sent to villages to help kids. We did a lot of of medical things, we took care of kids. Chance, youe a always saw photographs of troops holding kids. We respected that. We had a love for it. We understood. That took the sting off of being in that country. , i have always had a little bit of a haunting. I did not go. Because i did not go, i did not feel that that was a great victory, a personal victory for me. If,ve always wondered because i did not go and somebody else did, maybe they did not come home. Let me follow up. Veteransr of our two not seen any of the atrocities committed in any way, shape, or form american troops or seen the consequences of napalm being drop of civilians. Did you run across any of that . It is horrible. When you walk through an area that has been hit, streamers of. Lastic and grotesque damage we did see that. We experienced it and watch it happen. War is kill or be killed. Myself, the guys like ,he moral dilemma was resolved and it could have been a rationalization, but when we were there the saying is you own the ground you stand on and thats it. There was no frontline. We were there to protect our men and ourselves. Maybe help our buddies get back alive. We got shot at and we returned fire area fire. It is a rationalization that im saving my body and myself and the moral question gets pushed back. And myself and the moral question gets pushed back. When it comes to the types of weapons we used. When you get heavy fire from a village, you have no choice. You have to fire back order guys are going to get killed. And you do. You call in either helicopters to fire rockets or you call in artillery. There are people in that village that arent shooting at you, but there are a lot that are. Those of the kind of moral dilemmas you have to shout back. You just dont have time to think. That is the only reaction you can have. The Collateral Damage issue is real. We realize this is happening. It is horrible. In that moment, you are it your buddys life. Thank you for your presentation and discussion. ,n thinking about veterans sometimes maybe they dont know what happened. Im thinking the war and veterans, it is a part of a big social problem. I think our system is rigged. We cannot ask the dod to cut the budget and close a military bases. I am also concerned with the veterans, maybe they have to be treated for mental illness. I think a lot of veterans are victimized and they are labeled mentally ill. Medical cost veterans are really victimized. They use rehab and a hospital as prison and then they charge them and all their benefits and incomes in savings will be gone. Y charge them everything we waste a lot. [indiscernible] do you have a question . Can we Pay Attention to reduce this abuse to fix the system. We cannot allow them to have a e system rate system igg system. Ed rigged system. They sent them from one rehab to another. I will step in. Is the system broken . No. Is it operating perfectly . No. Programs that are being offered that are trying to address the issues that you are talking about. Posttraumatic stress. Dealingissues we are with our traumatic brain injuries and posttraumatic stress. If they have a problem, they should be treated. Mislabeled they are their income, their savings. [indiscernible] but the government and the private sector realize the deficiency of vietnam and they are attempting to address those thats by offering programs deal with counseling for posttraumatic stress. Sports and Wellness Programs that get the warriors back into health and fitness. Education. The best education bills we have ever seen. The real focus by a lot of companies throughout the country on hiring veterans. Those are going on now and it is much more aggressive and much more efficient than they were during the vietnam war. Those elements are there to try and help the warriors transition act into civilian life or back into a healthy active lifestyle. Is it perfect . No. But it is certainly better than what was there during vietnam. Thanks for your comments. I am one of those journalists. Longte a book called time passing, vietnam and the haunted generation. My question is involved in a deep question about the morality of the way that war was fought. We all know that the student movements were amazing and the numbers of people that did go. I want to ask if you are familiar with project 100,000. Which was the building Great Society program in which they brought in 350,000 men who had flunked the physical and mental tests and they brought that then , they were known as the more on moron corps. They were sent to vietnam in disproportionate numbers. One had an iq of 62. This is the part of a war that is as disingenuous as it can be. There were so many deferments. Trump, cheney, bush, all of them were deferred. My question is, can you really look at what is happening today . I read and very interesting article that says a are not volunteers, they are recruited. I can understand some people wanting to go into the army, but a lot of people are free from that. My question is, what a real draft, unlike the abominable one , cents or more people in the thought of going off to war . Because their own children were involved . That is a bad legacy. If anybody wants to talk about that. And also the vietnamese who are fourth generation agent orange because our country is not taken asian origin out agent orange out. This is a ghastly continuing problem. I know people who are working with victims of the landmines, victims of agent orange. What bothers me is it is buried. Do you feel a moral obligation to look at that and speak out about the bad part of the war . Because i have not heard it so far. , 100,000, there was a piece about it in the New York Times. I have actually been corresponding with that author. The stories that he tells about vietnamhat he knew in who were not capable of taking care of themselves and became cannon fodder in the war. It is sad, poignant, and worth talking about. That was written and 85. It was written over and over by the journalists. Might as any military ever addressed it. Asnt in can burns ken burns. It needs to be addressed if anybody is going to look at what type of wars we are going to go into and who is doing the fighting. I think your question in a larger sense is, there are a lot of stories in vietnam that are very troubling. What is our obligation to keep telling those troubling stories . To make sure that we learn from those lessons and try to rectify some of the past injustices that we may have been involved in. Toespective of how we tried read tell the story of veterans for their bravery and courage in a war that they did not necessarily choose to be involved in. What is our obligation to tell the difficult sides of this war so that the next generations can learn those lessons . It is very much an obligation. To go back to your point about the draft. I think if we had a genuine draft where there were no, except with some exceptions, deferment, i think we would be in a lot less wars. I think we have a responsibility absolutely to tell the truth about the horrors of war. Of from an antiwar point view, just because the truth needs to be told. When i see these wounded veterans in the hospital, they are in bad shape. Trauma, dramatic , the impact of a 30 pound ball is devastating. You dont see the artillery damage in the orthopedic damage and the traumatic brain injury that occurs. They are going to be dealing with that for the rest of their lives. The public needs to know that. It gives them a healthy skepticism about or so we dont just jump into it. A dentist it does give you pause when you see the casualties firsthand. When you see the impact of these people and their family. When we talked about napalm you said it was horrible, but you did what you could to survive. Does our country have an obligation to do some sort of moral reckoning with the fact that we did drop napalm and agent orange chemical weapons, of another country. Irrespective of how are our own soldiers feel that i needed to survive. And that a conversation we have had as a country . The problem is our country has a short Attention Span. Hook i thought we are going to fix this problem. I am a big gun guy by the way, but we are going to fix this problem. We have forgotten about las vegas. We have forgotten about taxes. We have a very short Attention Span for the order of things. Something will happen, not a response that will solve the problem. We have a short Attention Span. Yes, please. Thank you, good evening. Principles of war havent changed since they were formulated a couple hundred years ago. My basic question is this, principal of war number one is thein you must invade territory of the enemy and conquer that territory. Three tors of duty in vietnam. Y first tour was in 1966 a huge force was assembled on the 17th parallel and waiting for the gong to ring to invade north vietnam. After about a month, the gong rang to go back home. ,ll of a sudden the war became if it was a war, body count. You dont win wars by body count. Of best example of principal war number one is exemplified by world war ii. We won, but what happened. You had to invade not see germany and conquer that nazi germany and conquer that country. My basic question is this. Was a decision made on high that we dont want to win this war, we violate the basic principles of war to invade the territory of the enemy, and then go into some kind of Holding Action and start telling the press and the country body count is the way were going to do it . I leave this open to you because this is such a basic principle and the title of tonight is Lessons Learned, lessons ignored. I think what was ignored was this very basic principle. There are many who do hold political leaders responsible for failing to prosecute this war in a way that left our soldiers holding more of that responsibility. There is that argument that it was the political leaders that failed to prosecute this war possibly. That we could have won this war and they did not do it right. I would say several things on that. Number one, the socalled, no theory had a lot of credence the socalled domino theory had a lot of credence. It has not been well received since then, but there was all kinds of intelligence that the chinese and russians were wanting to spread communism through Southeast Asia. The main effort was to prevent that from happening. Defense wasne of south vietnam. E did not want to lose the war it was always hanging over the head, the want to make this a much wider war with the chinese and russians and bring them into the war . That is not a situation we had enrolled war two, we knew who they were. Case, youarticular enemies but they werent fighting yet because they had not been drawn in. Wideneling was, if you the war that there is no end to it. There is no end to it very similar to what we did in korea, we try to hold the line and to it. Similar to what we did in korea, we try to hold the line. Youre not trying to hold anybody back, you are just trying to not widen that war to a major confrontation. To it was a war of containment, not a war of victory . Containment is victory. That was the theme of the pentagon papers. This is all about containing china. Yes, please. Context, i was at the Army Recruiting station because im looking to join up. That is what my question comes from. There was some mention that it has gone from everybody was in the military to it is harder and harder to come across someone. What do you think are going to be the greater political reaches of that trend . I was writing an article the , military families are bearing much more of the brunt. Their children are signing up and set of people across the country and there are fewer people seen as qualified. What do you think are the political, social implications of that . To . O you want think, we are creating a bit of a culture of the 1 . , and this is why discussions like this are important, people generally dont, like you said we have a short Attention Span, we dont understand and appreciate the horrors of war and we dont understand the cost of war from a human point of view because we have not been exposed to it. We dont have friends or relatives that have served and can tell us stories. We are in danger of falling into a situation where it will be easier and easier to make the decision to go to war. I think that is dangerous for this country and for any country. Not that we dont find situations where it is necessary, but it makes it a lot easier to do it because it is such a small segment of the population that is experiencing what it is like to be at the front lines. What it is like to be the tip of the spear. In other words, one of the results of vietnam which was to end the draft and creative volunteer army which limit the number of people to get involved with the war may have ultimately resulted in fewer people knowing the consequences of war and not making informed decisions which could potentially lead us to conflicts that may be your mirror the anon. That is better put. [laughter] im a veteran of the persian gulf war. Had the talk in solution. Tonkin the century we have the weapons of mass destruction. In the 60s and 70s we had the bombing of innocent civilians in cambodia and laos. The president himself orchestrated groanings dronings of civilians in afghanistan. Why isnt one of the lessons we have learned in the obama in vietnam that the president must that he or she will not only be impeached, but tried and if found guilty incarcerated , for lying our country into an unjustified war or for slaughtering innocent civilians . Why isnt that an important lesson we have learned . You were there. You werent there the tonkin there must of a conversation in the white house about the fact that tonkin gulf was not necessarily an attack on our ships. We were there, we still d. Lieve at least during that four your span, the feeling was that you were trying to make the right decision and you are not considering this tangential damage, Collateral Damage because it was all in a war. We were kind to protect our troops and get the objectives, the military objective you were trying to reach. I dont think anybody ever thought about a war crimes trial or things like that. That has only come up in fairly recent years where someone would suggest our president be tried for war crimes. Out. Want to point our system is designed to prevent things from happening easily. The check and balance separation of powers in the Internet Nuclear velocity age are inadequate. Forngratulate corker starting a bit of a hearing on capitol hill about trying to see ort could happen to rein in give some congressional oversight or some kind of oversight to the use of Nuclear Weapons. Have some structural problems in how our constitution portions power and influence. Thes not held up well in velocity of Information Age that we are in. There are serious consequences when you take patients to war based on inaccurate information. That does reverberate and it leaves people to have less trust and less favored institutions. And less faith in institutions. If you go through having trials or impeachment, it debilitate our society. Part of the responsibility of our leaders to make sure that they tell us accurate information. We had that in the mexicanamerican war, the spanishamerican war, it has happened throughout our history. You dont recognize it at the time, but it is inaccurate information. We only have time for this final question. Hello. Vietnam ended up being an unwinnable war, and today a lot of our foreign threats include cyber warfare, terrorist organizations, and the civil war can seem syria unwinnable. What lessons do we learn from vietnam when looking at how to react to Global Threats we are facing . A lot of it has to do with, and this is where i have faith in the military frankly. And capitol hill, we dont engage in a lot of criminal thinking. [laughter] critical thinking. [laughter] it is all about can kicking and credit claiming. Is not a policy institution, it is a political institution. I am i think military does engage in a reasonable amount of critical thinking. I think they are looking at the threats in a more holistic way. The certainly are on frontline line of having something disastrous happened. Their incentives are not getting reelected next week. Their incentives are in the proper place. I have some hope in that regard. Faith,oped, it is because i dont have top security clearance. I dont know what is going on. I am heartened by what ive seen. One of the other lessons we have talked about here tonight, as you are making political decisions you have to factor in the total cost of war. That is not just sending young men and women to war, but what happens to them when they come home and the costs of taking care of them when they come home. We dont factor that in and it is a huge cost. That is one of the lessons i hope we can learn. Is, weink another lesson need to not overreact in a state of hysteria on every act that happens. Het is where you get this rd effect of stampeding out the door to solve something when you look at the reality of what has happened and not overreact to it and keep more of a steady approach to these crises and to these problems throughout the world. I think that is when we get into this escalation. Escalation of what we do in reaction. I have a final wrapup question for you all. Lets say you are teaching my course on the 1960s. My students in class, they want to note the one lesson they should learn from the vietnam war as they begin to take the and begin tocracy be that generation that will be running this country. What is that one lesson from vietnam that you would tell young people today . Be skeptical and curious. Skeptical and curious. Combinedthy skepticism with patriotism, but a healthy skepticism. Information and with the kind of questions and approach so that we have our eyes open and can take action. Things, and to value the Human Capital of this country. Some of our bright minds died in vietnam. The longad the book grade nine gray line. They recount one by one how they died in the amount. They arent soldiers, they are marines, they are people. They have an opportunity, if left to live, to make a contribution to this country. Honesty and humility. Idle think you can have greatness without humility i dont think you can have greatness without humility. Being able to put a period at the end of a sentence, not just another comma. There there were times i asked how many people died in the annulment they would say 58,000. Thereby couple of million vietnamese who died in vietnam. I hope they take away from that single question that the Human Experience has to be much larger than any particular policy or decision that goes on in one nation or that we have to understand the consequences of those policies and decisions. And the long run, they do boomerang back home. In any case, we are out of time. Please thank our panelists. [applause] this weekend on American History tv on cspan3. , onght at 8 00 p. M. Eastern lectures and history, we visit Iowa State University as professor pamela teaches a class on food during the great depression. And a lot of families there was selective starvation of adult, meaning adults would choose not to eat in favor of letting their children eat. There were families that stayed in bed all day and reduced their so that two a day everybody would conserve as much energy as possible and not get is hungry. They also rely on the kindness of friends and strangers. Railamerica a. Damerica, 1999 a look at family life in the 20th century. Withlitsecond lunches disposable dishes. All part of the instant society of tomorrow. A society rich in pleasure and taken for granted. Eastern, at 4 30 p. M. Historian talks about runaway slaves and the consequences of you did of slave laws. Fugitive slave laws. One of the deliberate refusal to enforce the law in many northern communities, particularly black communities. 8 00, we will tour the National World war i museum and memorial in kansas city. I think it is an extremely extraordinary story of grassroots support and grassroots funding to pay for what turned out to be an American History tv this weekend, only on cspan3. Artifactsek, american takes you to museums and historic places. Mr. Toomey hi. Im dan toomey, guest curator at the Baltimore Railroad museum, and this is the war came by train exhibit. This exhibit is the largest civil war Railroad Exhibit ever presented. It coincides with the American Civil War sesquicentennial. It runs for five years, and changes ea y