Stories. And finding out what inspired you about winston. Its been a lovely day and a half. Were more than experts on the family life of winston churchill. And it was very exciting yesterday to hear Lady Williams talking about what it was like to be a secretary at chart well. And part of the project were doing we plan to open the secretary room in 2020. So if you want to hear more about that, theres something in your pack act the project. In terms of churchill and island. I was thinking what we had in the collection. About that. We have a gift from london. Of a replica of one of my favorite items in the house. In the library. I was really interested yesterday to start to hear a little bit about churchills relationship with attlee. Well hear more about that now. So we have another family of writers like the churchills here. We have the bews with us this morning. We have lord bew. Professor of politics at Queen University in belfast. And we have john. Who is professor of i have that wrong. So lord bew is the politics expert. And john is the history professor and Foreign Affairs and Award Winning historian. Theyll give us an excellent take this morning. Starting off with john. Can we have a big warm welcome for the bews. Thank you. Can everybody hear me okay . Okay. Id like to thank again the organizers for a fantastic conference so far. Its been wonderful at many levels and particular to myself to Michael Bishop who extended an invitation to me. And its doubly a pleasure. Because 2012 we first met. About six people turned up at and michael was one. We stayed in touch. He was with me at my darkest hour. If youd like. Its very nice to be here. My father and i were discussing this to break up the talk and hopefully it will be something of a confers. While were related our books are not. So we have the discussion as to who to go firs. On the basis of the youth and book sales went for me. He will no doubt interrupt at various points. I want to talk about the relationship that Clement Attlee had with churchill. And more specifically because we are in a churchill conference i want to talk about the insight i think attlee offers about churchills character. And particularly strategy during the second world war. I can Start Talking about churchill and attlee through many antidotes. Some true. That churchill said for example that attlee was a modest man with much to be modest about. Or a sheep in wolves clothing. Or the famous one thats too crude to mention. I must do anyway. The story of them entering in the war cabinet. Where apparently winston shuffled off to one corner and attlee said unusually modest for you. To churchill replies any time you socialist see Something Big you want to nationalize it. Im not sure how much any of this is true. Just to say while theres lots of disparaging remarks attributed to churchill about attlee. He would never allow anyone else to disparage him in his company. And would reply and say no, hes a great patriot. Do not ever criticize him in my company. Theres a really close relationship that extends to the later portion of their life. My favorite story as winston got dafr. Attlee sat by his side and talked to him by him. And churchill couldnt hear anything back. But that says perhaps something about the relationship. That actually has a number of interesting punctuation points and goes back to the fact that the first connection between churchill and attlee is they shared a governor. The home schooler. Who didnt last very long with churchill. Attlee told this story of how the bell would come ringing from churchills room when he was in his governess. And the maid come running in saying whats wrong. Winston replied shes very cross. Please remove her from the room. Thats the first connection. Theres a familiarity there. The second connection is attlee was a conservative. And imperialist. In his skill days. And the one thing for which he ever got in trouble in school was celebrating the relief of lady smith. He was reading the reports from that. Thats when he became aware of churchill. It was nine years between them. Secondly when churchill was elected and 1900. Attlee remembered reading about this young rising star of our party. He was a conservative. By 1911 interestingly churchill was home secretary sends in the army to deal with an incident with a series of anarchists. Attlee is there watching it going on. As a social worker and socialist in the local community. His own career transformed. This odd scene of churchill with his top hat and cane ordering the army. And attlee with the working class really is a very striking one. And also lord o wen talked about this. Five years later attlee find himself fighting in churchills campaign. Sp hes the second last man off the beat. I will let my father come in here. Ill come back to it. He has a point to make. We talk about the act. I agree with everything that i have heard. But i want to add one point. Its very important for islands. Not just australian who died there. Its a good section of the soldiers who died more importantly the type of soldier. The society. The modern unionist the moderate nationalist. Who joined up and died. Its the particular group. Its really the society. And professional background and so on. They die in their droves. Why i want to make this point is churchill always he knew some of the people. And major who dies had been imprisoned in the same cell. He knew him he would have known the sons. If you look at the plaque in west minister hall theres many sons. As other mainstream british parties. He knew these people and says very little about it. He always writes a lot about irish military. How great soldiers the irish are. In in 1921 when you get the troubles and the awful violence and the secretaryism and the he says where are the decent irishmen i knew . Where are the same moderates on both sides . The answer im afraid is a lot of them are dead. Its something he never really faces up to. Pick up from that. Attlee is hugely pride to a fault. Hes carried off the battlefield three times. And a major part of the political identity. It distinguishes him in the labor movement. Huge part of the relationship with churchill there after. Even when they are having strife and argument in the 1920s. Attlee is always prepeared to say im prepared to give the devil his. Churchill was right. To the extent he says its the one great strategic idea in the last war. It sets the tone for the relationship between them. You can imagine the meeting in the lobby. They do meet over the course of the 20s and 30s. And have a respect between them. The major and the man who sent the major to this part of the world. And one thing is striking in his k correspondent. Winston looms so large hes kind of a point of reference. Even when he seemed to be out in the cold. Hes referred to. Attlee thinks winston is completely off the mark on things like india. The stars start to align over the 30s. They share ultimately a similar world view. Many on the last attlee believes in the same core western values as churchill does. When it comes to the crunch and hes not apology for. He doesnt bat his eyes. Those core sort of sense of western energetic by partisan ship starts over the course of the 30s. By the time you come to may 1940, the famous cartoon which some maybe aware of. Called all behind you winston. And it has the Coalition Government loining up behind churchill. As he rolls up his sheaves and marching into battle. That was attlees proudest moment. Attlee writes a letter to low. And he asks for the original copy. And later when low puts it up. Attlees wife insisted they have the copy back. Its his proudest moment to step into the Wartime Coalition with churchill in 1940. Its not just that relationship means a sort of broader and large respect for churchill strategic mind. It shapes how attlee guides the labor into the Wartime Coalition. He says a few things about glip lee. The reason he thinks its badly organized and the first war was due to progeneral ship. And political squabbling at home. And the first thing he says to churchill is that i will not squabble over seats. You give me whatever seat you want. And well proceed from that basis. He has a strong view internal struggling and causing issues or jostling for advantage in the Wartime Coalition is not the way to proceed. By the way hes under immense pressure from the party to do that. And hes always sticking and backing with churchill. Its colleague says basically comes to the conclusion that attlee had decided right at the start of war to back winston on all decisions. As much as we talk about the Great Success story. 40 to 42 the war doesnt go well for britain and churchill. And there are plenty of shots circling around him. Including those like lord beaver brook. Who are supposed to be closest to him. Its not just during the last flashes of appeasement. Its through all those early major decisions. And that relationship is crucial. Attlee needs to be given his due. And churchill did appreciate him. Because who is criticizing attlee for being to churchill. Now you can say he does so because hes a simplistic thinker or too thats what his party said. Thats what the general said. I have to suggest that actually attlee had a broader appreciation of what he called higher strategy. Which distinguished churchill from the generals in particular the chief general staff who had a more limited conception of strategy. And also attlee understood that churchill had a better appreciation and understanding of what he calls the precurious balance of coalition warfare. In particular the key generals. He feels attlee they didnt appreciate the difficulty of getting the americans into the war. And the necessity of steering them towards key strategy theaters that britain values. And this goes to the point i heard roberts make. Which is that act of american statesman ship the decision to fight first in europe is the most selfless act of statesman ship in the 20th century. It is not an inevident blt. And attlee following churchill believes that churchill managed to achieve this finally balanced coalition through the effective rels relationship with the americans. And its his generals who sometimes why squabbling and complaining about eisenhowers command jeopardize it. Thats the first level of appreciation. Secondly attlee understands that with the key maneuvers in the war the politic of churchill is doing. Therefore he supports things that the generals regard as quite ub surd. Like the suggested campaign. Attention grabbing, eye Agenda Setting political maneuvers that churchill wants to try at various poipts. Back to the quote that under churchill britain this essentially one army in three theaters simultaneous. Attlee appreciates and understands what churchill is trying to do. Which is set the political agenda. And the big example is britain leading the invasion of italy. Churchill turns to attlee at various points and say they respect us now. The political optics of the maneuvers attlee has a refined appreciation. Ill hand it over to my father. Attlee is responsible for one of the most insooifs and interesting quotes about churchill. He said i used to compare him to one of those. He had a 17th century lair. And 19th century lair. And sometimes a 20th century lair. The thing was youre never sure which lair was upmost. Thank you, john. That last comment about the remind me of a different variant. The irish ambassador in london. And had a meeting sp said to him, he had known churchill a long time. Backed him in politics in the first decade of the 20th century. So it was a long standing relationship. He says he stuck in the 18th century now. And said you just dont understand even in india he really gets it. His commitment is to he knows whats going to have to come after this war. Youre just falling for this image of a actually he says stuck in the 18th sempbl ri. Falling for something thats not really there. He knows exactly whats going to happen. Including with india. And very interesting conversation. And hes not. And to add to that document i came across after finishing the book. Telegraph of churchill in september 1943. Saying if island comes in now we will support irish unity because he thinks that the union is go along with that. Because island demonstrated british war effort. Everything will change and im quite happy to support irish unity. There are other people in the cabinet saying dont play with us. As the war went on it became clear who was going to win. Nations started to declare war on hitler. British cabinets they can see the people leaping into the spoils. They discuss what do we do here . Being neutral. Having many respects objectively headed the german war effort. Had lost their lives because of lack of irish facilities. And but what we do is they die. Most of the cabinets are Holding Churchill back. They dont come in. And he makes this speech which is so critical and so we talk about frolishing with hitler and saying the light to freedom is only preserved by the fact that Northern Ireland and the union part of the north remained part of the war. And american soldiers would be stationed there. Military facilities and so on. Vital to the war. So there is a problem here. Because for the talk because john when he talks about attlee is talking about somebody who really did engage with churchill. When i talk about churchill. For all his life engaged with ireland. But fascinated by it. Ireland has a colder relationship with churchill. Thats the unevenness between the two talks. To return to the beginning. Churchills whole life is has these significant irish phases many it. His first public appearance in dublin. His father is working as an aid to the lord. Grandfather. I read the newspaper report of this child and the dublin press making. Everybody thought the most beautiful portrait they had seen. From that moment on, he put dublin stories he told by his nanny. More importantly he remembers the present he received from thomas burke. Who was the top civil servant. Who was he says i cant remember what he looked like. I remember the drum. That l that links him to the most important assassination. Theres always this emotional connection. He has cousins in ireland. And roughly of the nationalist side. And one of whom is very much on the unionist side. Standing for parliament in all the time these families standing engaged in high level of toll picks in all the time churchill is involved no politics. After he joins the liberals, churchill gradually becomes a accepting of the broad liberal view that home rule is right for ireland. Its a slow process. When he first joins the liberals and switches. I dont really believe. Over the next few years up to 1910 Irish National is pick up on it. He becomes more identified sympathy for the home rule cause. He mimics in some way broadly speaking his career after his father. A very crude way to look at it. His father started as a strong unionist. Then had a flirtation with Irish Nationalism in the 1880s. Or engagement. And reverted to being a strong unionist. In some ways churchill career has the same structure. He starts as a strong unionist. And has an engagement with nationalism. And then in his later career is a identified more with unionism. All the time you know after a very strong statement. So it all the time this is complicated messaging. But thats the broad picture. And he follows his fathers path. Unionist first and engagement with nationalism. And of course america is important here. Not the only reason why hes so interested in. He does think of the irish as a principle part of the English Speaking people. The importance of the irish in american politics. Very important in holding roosevelt back from engagement in the war. Because that was the sells point with the nazi. We can hold back america. Sdp because of the control of this population. Hes aware of all this, he gives up in the end. 1937 he writes a piece in which he says i always wanted the irish to be a part of the English Speaking people. Its not happening. Theres a book review. Its not happening. In 1938 he writes about absolutely brilliant. And he did consult with his cousin. Its a brilliant essay. Which really is superior to most of the subsequent academic over the next 50 years. One of the things about that is as a boy he had seen parliament. He had been taken in by his father. And the great contemporaries are people he had known. The great Irish Nationalist leader. One of the things about is this. It sees the conservative side. Which is what attracted churchills father. To why there was a close relationship for a year or so. He sees this clearly in a way many historians missed for decades. A brilliant essay. But hes writing his people have said this. End of 1930s and saying i was really important. I dealt with it. For 40 years it. Convulsed it. And different issues arose. There was almost a civil war. I was in on that. I worked on that. Actually probably made a will the of mistakes in his handling of that. He would switch around from one position to another. Then i dealt with the war. Brought that to a reasonable compromised conclusion. And widely respected for doing that. But actually says everybody has forgotten what i did. Everybody forgot about island. A small place of a collection of agriculture communities gathered together for no purpose. Its also here am i winston churchill. This was big stuff. I was heavily involved in it. And certainly in 1921, 22. Played a major role in switching off this war. Which looked as if it was getting completely and utterly out of control. He played a role. This is interesting. We talk about this. Churchill and violence and war. And peace equally valued and strong in knowing when to make the switch. He is the drive the you cant give way to the ira and rough methods have to be used. Its a dirty war. And he faces up to this. He doesnt hide from this. He says were doing terrible things. And propaganda. So its absolutely intense. And when he thinks by enough application of dirty war against dirty war, that theyre going to compromise, and theyre not going to push for an irish republic. And not going to push to take over the island. In churchills view that prospect meant a civil war. Dragging in america he would say. So when you get them to compromise on those two big things and accept. And you hes one of the first people. Hes in the minority in the cabinet. We fought hard enough long enough they now know were not a push over. Now we go for the deal. Hes way ahead of the most of the people. Including people you would not expect in the cabinet. Well known people. So its the we fight you really fight. Again you reach the point where you calculate. You can get a compromise and go for it. He writes about this later on. Hes writing about the irish leader he makes the deal with. Hes talking to about that, he writes an article ten years later recalling on this. He recalls the bravery sticking with the deal. Churchill clearly observant of this knows this. He talks about the end of the war. And recalls castle ray. Who he is connected by family. The greatest British Foreign secretary. He immediately says thats it now, no more punishment of the french people. We have to make the break. And says this is what you have to do. And the trouble the difficulty is, at the end of war at the end of conflict its the hardest struggle is with yourself. Its a new era. Its a brilliant essay. In which he recalls this. And the about germany. About the bitterness. This is what the kind of part of churchills broader international legacy. In which ireland played a big part in flowing and forming into the wait he thinks about these things. Its there all his life. In the 30s hes isolated. This bitterness. I did great work in this area and nobody cares. Ill tell you anyway. I was really heavily involved nd this stuff. When the war comes along, how he dislike irish neutrality and the reason. Theyre really military reasons for disliking it. Theres no question in my mind. It was reasonable to say island is so divided politically. Thats a reasonable thing to say. The deal wasnt a bad deal. Really given the divisions of Irish Society which britain is partly responsible for, you cant do bert than that. Theres no doubt that thousands of british sailors died because the decision was made by in the 1938 to actually rewrite churchills deal with collins. And give back troetty ports. The naval ports britain ha in ireland. No question churchill bitterly denounced it. Everything he says about that deal was justified. Chamberlain was motivated by. I want to send the signal sot germans. Lets not have a war. Thats a big part of chamberlains calculation. Which churchill can see as bonus and not likely to work. This is the key thing even with who was the irish leader. He hated the most. Because he regards him as having undone churchills deal. Quite accurately. In 1953. And Lady Williams is here. Kind enough to come she was there. When churchill our friendly meeting in 1953. In downing street. There was a certain type of low key reconciliation. So always without theres an emotional engagement. Always a massive respect for irish soldiers. This is why he talks about the irish. One of whom ironically is actually english. Because what this hes a tear away. At one point left the army deserted and wanted to rejoin. And took an irish laborers papers and joined. Churchill thought he was doing making a great gesture. Were talking about the wonderfully brave. But actually this guy was from brad ford. So theres but thats in that case he wasnt accurate. But as you know all leading generals are irish. The fighting broks he road in with. Brooks. Churchill has intense respect for irish war like capacities. The literal capacities in 1948 towards the end. In which he engages with his father and has the dream is provoked by somebody sending mem ra peel ya from belfast. And to his fathers role in belfast. And many people argue churchill was dancing on his fathers grave. When he went in 1912 he was basically on the nationalist side. Moderate side. When he went and his father went in 85 he was on the unionist side. He was sent memorabilia. Thats what the dream is about. They talk about lots of things. When you consider what a small place ireland is. When you consider all the massive issues that churchill was engaged in. That shows you the importance emotionally that ireland had for churchill. Just one more point. He says in the dream hes discussing his relationship with socialist. His father says youre in government with socialist . And he says they wear tank tops and theyre badly dressed. You wouldnt believe it theyre completely royalist. And not that difficult at all. Thats what he says about the socialist. On the irish comparison. He fights with furiousty. And the comparison comes up later in the second world war. What attlee says quite striking. Had compares him to britains various wartime leaders and says hes the most superior of all the war toim leaders in history. Attlee says this in 43. Comparing to different possible alternatives. Cromwell was a better soldier. But if you compare to the wartime leaders, pit. And the french revolution. Didnt really speak for england. Sufficiently. Lloyd george while he was a wartime leader in the second pors of the first world war, failed on the grinds he didnt have enough military knowledge to push back ain