Nuclear weapons. This is 45 minutes. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. To introduce our next speaker of the morning, we have another very special lady, please welcome edwina sands. [ applause ] good morning. Can you hear me all right . Clear as a bell, i hope. Well, its lovely to be here for another conference. Each one i come to seems to be even better than the last. Now, we have kevin, kevin ruane here, who has written this very, very good book. Churchill and the bomb. So one of my grandfathers best quotations, and there are so many to choose from, is this one. The further backward we can look, the further forward you are likely to see. We think most of us, that history is past. Done and dusted. Over with. Just a memory. But history has a way of coming back to bite us. As Ronald Reagan said, here we go again. I remember when the cold war was over. But then it wasnt. I remember further back when people were scared of the abomb and then worse of the hbomb. And now today, the specter of nuclear war has once again reared its ugly head. Kevin ruane is professor of modern history at canterbury, Christchurch University in the United Kingdom. He has written quite a few books, one on vietnam and one is coming out very shortly on anthony eden. And that will be a very interesting one because he had such a long history with grand papa. He is working on now something that im really, really longing to get my hands on, but its not physical form yet. Its a book on Graham Greene and its going to be called, Graham Greene in love and war. So theres a lot to be said. I think its going to show how fact and fiction is hard to separate. We get a bit of that today here. Nobody thought that was funny. Okay. [ laughter ] anyway, kevins book, churchill and the bomb, in war and cold war, is timely today. It covers amongst other things the close relationship with lord charwell, grand papa and lord charwell. I knew him slightly, like i was a fly on the wall because he was often at chartwell. He wasnt didnt relate well to the children or the children didnt relate well to him. We had a much better relationship with monty. He took a real interest in people. Anyway, the prof was an important person for grand papa because he could bat ideas back and forth with him on science. It wasnt in the house of commons. He could just try to work out his own ideas and what he felt and understood. The proof was a very important person. That is one of the things ive been interested in, in this book. So now give you the wonderful, kevin ruane, who will tell us some wonderful things about his book. [ applause ] thank you, edwina. Is this mike okay . Its just okay. Thank you, edwina. Very generous introduction. Its great to be back again. So thank you to Michael Bishop and the ics, the whole family for giving me this platform now two years in a row. Its great honor. I thought id begin by saying a little bit about how i came to write this book. How i came to churchill and the bomb. Its a big man. Big subject. Churchill, the nuclear statesman. It really began about five years ago when i was asked to do some work by the churchill archive. Thats to say the online digital repository of all churchills papers. Which youve heard about from lawrence amongst others already in the conference. Im told close to a million individual images, so letters as a homesick boarder to his mother and world war i, world war ii, et cetera. Now, the archive is a venture where the original materials is with the publishers. I have to tell you, this archive is one of the great jewels in the crown of this digital age. Although it is subscription only for universities and other what i call grownup organizations. Thanks to the spectacular generosity of lawrence geller, it is as has been pointed out already, at this conference, its absolutely free to schoolkids in the usa, the uk and other places around the world. Lawrence deserves i think a round of applause for that, frankly, [ applause ] theres not many fantastic things around that are totally free these days, it seems. This is, if youre a schoolkid, one of them. I was asked to do a web essay on churchills Nuclear Weapons to illustrate the aladdins cave of riches that is this online archive. In doing the original research i came across a churchill i dimly knew existed. This was a churchill of fantastic imagine nation and scientific vision. Churchill, as a teenager, was devouring science fiction, particularly the work of h. G. Wells. Now, the time machine rather, before i give the quote, im no gary oldman. I think the oscar is safe, i hope. I hope after that magnificent performance. But churchills speech pattern was so ideosyncraticly, i cant quote churchill without trying a little churchillian rumble. The time machine, 1895 he said was one of the books i would like to take with me to purgatory. In 1931, he went on to say, that he had read all of h. G. Wells output with such closeness i could take an examination in them. Beyond this, i discovered a churchill of striking scientific vision. Who in the interwar years was regularly publishing on what you call popular scientific themes. In mass circulations like news of the world and other magazines. Churchill recognized that scientific and Technological Progress was going to be ongoing, revolutionary. It was probably going to be a force for good. It wasnt new enlightenment. It was going to bring betterment to the masses. He saw the positive side. At the same time, churchill worried that mankind might not be mature enough to deal with the gifts science was about to bestow and that science might have a dark side. One of those potentially dark gifts or double edged sword gifts was something called Nuclear Energy. The 20s and the 30s see modern Nuclear Physics come of age. With newspapers carrying loads of stories about the potentialities if the power of nature could be harnessed. Potensionialties of a constructive kind, like cheap energy and also newspapers carrying stories about the potentiality of something else, maybe atomic weapons. Id like to give you a couple of examples of the kinds of things churchill was writing. In the interwar period. He is inspired by wells and as edwina said, he is mentored by the professor of experimental philosophy at oxford university. Physics to you and i. Churchill got to know the prof, as he was almost universally known in that time. As he was almost universally known in the early 1920s and its a very close friendship and scientific mentoring relationship. This piece, 1924, ominously entitled, shall we commit suicide . In this article, churchill writes as follows, he suggests that the poison gas of the First World War might be the first chapter of a terrible book of destructive science. Then there are explosives. Has science turned its last page on them . Might not a bomb, no bigger than an orange be found in time to possess a secret power to destroy a whole block of buildings . Nay, to concentrate the force of a thousand tons of cordite and blast a township at a stroke. 1924. What about this from december 1931 . It appeared in the bumper christmas edition of the strand magazine. Its a pretty well known piece called 50 years hence. Many of you may be familiar with it. He says this, he says Nuclear Energy is incomparably greater than the Molecular Energy which we use today. The coal a man can get in a day can easily do 500 times as much work as the man himself. Nuclear energy is at least one million times more powerful still. There is no question amongst scientists this gigantic source of energy exists. What hes lacking is the match to set the bonfire alight. The scientists are looking for this. The match. You know, within a year, thats 1932, two cambridge scientists have split the atom. And at liverpool university, another english scientist has shown the neutron can penetrate the power chambers of the atom. The nucleus of the atom where most of its mass and energy and power resides. 1932. The match has been found. 1933. January. Adolph hitler becomes chancellor of germany. Six years on, january 1939, two german scientists working at the Kaiser Wilhelm institute in berlin, they prove in their laboratory experimentally that something called Nuclear Fission is realizable. In other words, a a Nuclear Chain reaction using the heavy element, uranium. They done it on a teeny laboratory scale. All around the world, 1939, as europe slips closer to the abyss. All around the world, physicists corroborate their findings. Its agreed that if this could be done, nuclear physician, on a large enough scale, you would have the most tremendous power source. Cheap electricity for everybody. But by the same token, Nuclear Fission could also make for a superlative weapon of mass destruction. What a year to discover that, 1939. Id like to share with you one more piece of intoward churchill pop science i suppose youd call it. Massive effects on modern life. It was written in 1925. It received a much bigger audience when it appeared in this collection of thoughts of adventures in the 1930s. Now, in this, churchill gave us the following prediction. He said that it might be that the military leader of some future world agony could extinguish, london, tokyo, paris, or san francisco, by pushing a button, or by putting his initials neatly at the bottom of a piece of wools cap. 20 years on in 1945 as Prime Minister in the wartime, churchill gave his approval. He put his initials neatly on the bottom of a piece of fools cap. He gave his approval from the request from the u. S. Government that he agreed with them to use the atomic bomb against japan. In so doing, churchill didnt just eerily live out his own premonition, he insured the bombs that would ultimately hit hiroshima and nagasaki bore a british as well as an american seal of approval. More on that later. Let me go back to todays theme. In expanding that small web essay into a booklength treatment i discovered the nuclear churchill. The nuclear statesman. Unli like splitting atoms, churchills career splits into three chronological phases. And if i may, id like to run through those now. The first phase, its the wartime phase. The first phase is what i call the atomic bomb maker phase. Let me take you back in time to 1941. More precisely, to the 30th of august, 1941. Churchill is 15 months into his wartime premiership. His country remains in the toils of a desperate struggle for survival. On that day, on the 30th of august, 1941, his love of science fiction, his love of the appliance of science to warfare, his belief in innovation and technology, all come together, along with the urgent promptings of the man in the bowler hat. They come together for a top secret british effort to develop an atomic bomb. Its code named, tube alloys. I think we can all guess if we dont know what the great spur is. The great spur is the thought that nazi scientists could put one of these things in hitlers hands. This was a race that simply had to be won. December 1941, of course, the United States entered the war. By late 1942, this pioneering british atomic project becomes subsumed in the juggernaut, the leviathan, the monster that is the u. S. Manhattan project. From that point on the United States drives this atomic bomb project, but the british are still there as junior partners, maybe, but theyre still there. And so we come to july 1945. Out in the wilds of new mexico, the world enters the nuclear age. When a plutonium device is successfully tested to spectacular effect. July, 1945. The test is code named trinity. Now, by then, of course, hitler is dead. The third reich is a smoldering ruin. It turns out the race, although won by the allies, it turned out the nazi Atomic Program was nowhere near as advanced as at one time feared. But nonetheless, but out in the distant reaches of the pacific, in asia and the pacific, the war with japan grinds on and on and on. And so to come full circle, on the 2nd of july, 1945, Winston Churchill has id already said, gave a British Green light to a request from the u. S. Government to the use of the bomb against japan. He gave that approval in keeping with the Mutual Consent clause of a secret atomic agreement that he had signed with president franklin d. Roosevelt at quebec in august 1943. The Mutual Consent clause. Just over three weeks later, thats the second of july, Winston Churchill isnt Prime Minister anymore. Hes lost the general election. Labor are in. Not too long after that, of course, we have the atomic end game. On the 6th of august, 1945 little boy, the code name for the uranium bomb is dropped on hiroshima. Its an air blast. Its not dropped literally on. On the 9th of august, 1945, fat man, the code name for the plutonium bomb is used against nagasaki. I think the results of the bombing, the impact of these two weapons of mass destruction is so well known, i really dont need to underscore it. For churchill, the most important thing, although has he is now leader of the opposition, is that on the 14th of august, 1945 a japan surrenders. For churchill its cause and effect. The bombs are dropped, the surrender comes within five days of the second atomic bombing. Eight years later, 195354, in the final volume of his history of the war, churchill maintained two things. Absolutely maintained two things. First the decision to use the bomb in 1945 was a joint decision between himself and president truman. A joint decision. The second thing he maintains, and im going to quote him again, is that the decision to use the bomb was never even an issue. His thinking went like this, in war bombs get used. The allies were at war with japan in the summer of 1945. The atomic bombs were weapons of war. Ipso facto, you use those weapons. Moral qualms, ethical qualms were a luxury for churchill, others to indulge in. Not for him who had been tasked in 1940 with defense of country. Commonwealth and civilization. Bomb maker. Phase one. The second phase of churchills nuclear career runs roughly from mid 1945 to 1950. And its maybe slightly more controversial. Its what i call the would be atomic warrior phase. Let me begin this one with ve day. Victory in europe day. 8th of may, 1945. When churchill looked at the map of europe, as he must have done, as we know he did. He did not like what he saw. He saw Stalins Red Army in occupation of Eastern Europe, the balkans, bat tick state, half of germany. There was little to no sign that stalin was going to abide by earlier agreements to allow freedom and democracy, free elections and so forth to flourish. No sign. For churchill, this was a staggeringly distressing and upsetting outcome to the war in europe. Having fought the war in a sense to save the continent from the tyranny of the right, naziism, fascism, was to the tierney going to prevail . What about western europe . The democracies needed to get their act together. Its here this thing the atomic bomb began to enter churchills mind. He first learned of the successful test of the bomb when he was attending the final big three conference of the war at pottsdam. The diary of this man, i could have given you other diariests. Chief of the imperial staff, it gives us an insight, and there are other insights that corroborate churchills reaction. To that first atomic test. He said we now have something in our hands that will redress the balance with the russians. He writes churchill pushed his chin out and scowled. Now we could say to stalin if you insist on doing this or that, well, we can just blot out moscow and then stalingrad, kiev, subastipol and now where are the russians . Three days after that diary entry, 26th of july, churchill isnt Prime Minister or before. A fortnight later the bombs are visited upon japan. Churchill did not have time to factor this new atomic power into his russia policy. His soviet policy. But weve got a good idea of his thinking. For example, on the 7th of august, he had lunch with lord camrose here. Camrose wrote churchill is of the opinion that with the manufacture of this bomb in their hands, america could dominate the world for the next five years. If he continued in office hes of the opinion that he could have persuaded the American Government to use this power, to restrain the russians. Churchill starts talking about a showdown, he uses that word repeatedly. Showdown. A nuclear themed showdown. What he means is a diplomatic head to head with stalin in which stalin is told in so many words, pull the red army out of Eastern Europe, send it back to barracks abide by wartime agreements or else. Dot dot dot. nuclear infused showdown, for the next five years, until early 1950, this was churchills repeatedly, if privately expressed view to all who would listen. Particularly ambassadors to london successively. Politicians in opposition are much freer we all know to express themselves than those who are actually in power. You know, even allowing for that, even allowing for churchills showmanship, the vehome mens with which he discoursed on the idea of a showdown suggests to me some at least seriousness of intent. Just one example must suffice as the clock begins to run against me. November, 1947, he met William Mckenzie king, the canadian Prime Minister and his diary tell us what churchill wanted to do was tell stalin the nations that have fought the last war for freedom have had enough of this war of nerves and intimidation. If you do not agree to pull out of poland and Eastern Europe here and no within so many days, we will attack moscow and your other cities and destroy them with atomic bombs from the air. We will not allow tyranny to continue. In the end, of course, the atomic menaces that churchill had in mind, the sort of punishment of the kremlin for not abiding by democratic principles in Eastern Europe, was never in churchills gift to deliver. It was in a sense of Harry Trumans gift here. It was americas gift. To churchills dismay the United States in the late 40s, never got remotely close to using its atomic monopoly in the kind of threatening diplomatic manner churchill evidently desired. The final phase of churchills nuclear career begins in early 1950. I say begins. It was the beginning of a transformation and extraordinary, it will see churchill move in the space of four years from would be atomic warrior to nuclear peacemaker. Sfroor transition. Extraordinary transition. Let me give you a little bit of background. In account, 1945, the atomic monopoly ended when america nicknamed its first atomic bomb. In the west there was alarm and fear occasioned by this soviet atomic break through. In january, 1950, the United States responded. President truman announced the United States would forge ahead with developing the Hydrogen Bomb, the super, it was nicknamed, a thermonuclear weapon. I say, a weapon . A monsters device a thousand times as powerful as the puny things used against japan. This was a serious serious weapon, if it could be made. Against this backdrop, there was a general election. Lady williams mentioned it yesterday, an election in february, now the election churchill calls for an east west submit. The first time apparently the word summit has been described a meeting. He calls for a summit. East west summit. To see if relations can be regulated. So that cold war doesnt escalate into hot war with the nuclear menaces. Labor immediately accused churchill of lx nearing. Exploring the nuclear. And there maybe something in that. Equally he was very worried now by that soviet. He was worried as well by fact that soviet bombers had the the range to each western europe but not america. Britain is small land mass with a concentrated population in maybe ten or 12 big cities was especially vulnerable. Well labor wins the 1950 election. They dont win it by very much. And another election happens in october 1951. And this time winston wins it. Not by much. 16 seat over all majority. The point is winston is back. Again. In number ten. A year on exactly october 1952, britain tests its own First Nuclear weapon. October 1952. Suddenly the nuclear club has three members. America, russia and britain. It is not a club of nuclear equal. A few months later, august 1953, britain is left standing the soviet union and announces to the world that it has the Hydrogen Bomb. Its won the race. The United States had already tested a device in november 1952. Eisenhower wouldnt confirm that. It doesnt matter. For churchill this development was disstressing it chilled him to the marrow. And by the end of 1953, he can be found privately predicting the hot war came, and with the u conclude vulnerable. All we hold dear. Ourselves our families and treasures will be even if some temporarily survive in some deep cellar under mounds of flaming and contaminated rubble there will be nothing heft to do but take a pill to end it all. Out of the dark, dark shadow of the Hydrogen Bomb in 1954 emerges churchill the nuclear peacemaker. Churchill the disciple. Looking for peaceful coexistence between the cold war blocks. No more did he talk of show down. His last campaign against Lady Williams stressed was a campaign of peace. It became his obsession. There must be a summit. Because a summit was the first step to what he calls chaining the nuclear monster. Sadly, it was not to be. Churchill never made it to the summit. President eisenhower amongst other things was not madly keen to rush to the summit table. Star linn talking the talking of peace. Eisenhower said i want deeds of peace not words. Before i run to the conference table. No need to rush. But thats not what an 80 yearold winston needed to hear. Who knew the clock was running down. And the clock does run down. In april 1955, he finally stands down. Steps down as Prime Minister in favor. Of e den here. The ambition went unfulfilled. The cold war continued. So did the danger of hot war and nuclear war. The final great surprise of my work on this was to discover churchill the nuclear visionary. The very end really of his political life. It would be a good ten years before this concept really got traction. The mid60s. Mutually assured destruction. We all know it. Its a concept most related to the 1960s. Winston got there first. A good ten years earlier. I want to close by giving you two examples of what i if you forgive me. I call the madness of Winston Churchill. At least the madness. The first is from october 1953. Hes nearly 79 years old. He talks in the house of commons about what he calls nuclear saturation. Saturation. Both sides having now lots of these weapons. He looked forward to a future when the advance of destructive weapons enables everyone to kill everybody else. Because then nobody will want to kill anyone at all. If thats not a description. I dont know what is. Again his final great speech before parliament in march 1955, on the Hydrogen Bomb. He left with the same message. There might in the future be a Nuclear Balance in the world. That might not be bad thing. It will be a sublime irony. He admitted. But it could be that safety will be the sturdy child of terror. And survival the twin brother of annihilation. In the meantime he closed, never flinch, never weary. Never dispair. And with that he sat down. After 55 years as a parliamentarian. And never got up to make another major speech. In the house of commons again. What a way to go. Lord watson has a fine bookover two speeches. That speech is up there for me. With any of the great speeches. Look, im effectively done. That for me is the nuclear statesman. You get three in one. You get the bomb maker, you get the would be early cold war would be atomic wor wor. And the great transformation into a conviction driven disciple. It was quite a journy from his nuclear starting point to his ending point. I have to say, i have not had as much fun if you can have fun with a subject like this. As i did in writing that book. Thank you for your time and attention. I think i need to wait for the mic. I think maybe ladies first. Hi, its of course rather terrifying story about my grandfather. And gets one worried. Very worried. That im glad that it all turned out well in the end. And the ended up with peace. I think i described him as a nuclear learner. That in the space of tennessee years 1945 to 1955 he went across the spectrum. He had to learn. What he learned if you stick rigidly to dogmatic and positions and churchill was if nothing an anticommunist in the nuclear age sticking to those positions could lead to calamity. That is why ultimately by 1954 he talking about peaceful coexistence. Which was a very hard thing for him to do. Peaceful coexistence effectively meant no longer overtly trying to free Eastern Europe. Trying to challenge and confront soef soviet control. It was simply too dangerous. Particularly for a United Kingdom within range. And at that point he felt uniquely vulnerable. Sorry, did you mention the bomb that was wrapped had a ewe rain nam base. The bomb later had a plutonium base. I classified them as atonic bombs. Wondering if you can explain why they switched the bomb they dropped and one had more than the other. I wont go heavy into the science. Initially the heavy element was the thing everybody was working on rlly in the war. Now in trying to enrich uranium. In the process of trying to get the core of the uranium bomb, a by product in what we call reactors today. A by product was plutonium. Which they were able to farm. And as a by product to try to actually make an explosive core. Uranium. Plutonium turned out to be just as and more explosive. The scientists were confident that the uranium bomb would work. That wasnt even tested out in new mexico. They were confident the bomb would work. They werent so confident about the detonation for the plutonium. Thats why it was a test. Without going into the science too much. It was a by product of efforts to create a uranium bomb. They ended up with two. Does that help . Thank you very much. Gentleman, do we need to wait . Sorry. I think this gentleman first and well pass it down. Two points you might elaborate. That is number one, the soviets obtained information to create a bomb through espionage. They didnt do the original research. Number two somewhere along the line, the u. S. Disallowed the relationship with the brits in terms of information on further Atomic Energy development. Comment. Well, broefly there is no doubt that the atomic projects was penetrated by soviet agents and the information as i understand it that was funneled did contribute to the soviet bomb in 1949. So i think thats accepted. Despite the fact general grove went to elaborate efforts to keep this thing sealed. Your second point is that the british decide that they can no longer do a bomb project on their own. They decide that really early 1942ish. Its too expensive. If you stop building all this stuff in the uk youre vulnerable to bombing. There are reasons why merger with the United States was a good idea. The two come together in 1942. But very quickly the United States out strips anything that the uk can contribute to the project. And there are interests within the Manhattan Project that dont see the need anymore to interchange with the uk. And churchill find that a distressing development. Its top secret. There were people in the know sdp those around him. And i mention the quebec agreement. It takes seven or eight months to get the british back into the partnership. It isnt equal. Its a partnership of one dominant partner and the british there as a support act. The biggest exclusion of course comes after the war. And with the act that doesnt just shut the uk out but other countries as well. Pure speculation. Would churchill feel comfortable with the nixon school or more with the Ronald Reagan school that wound out the cold war . I think i have thought about this. Clearly you cant research this particular at this history without having contemporary residences in your mind. I think it depends on why along that nuclear journy you halt churchill. What he would be like. The churchill at the end the peacemaker. And i think that if you accept the churchill anticommunism ran very deep, not with standing his efforts to get on with starlen. To embrace peaceful coexistence suggests to me one of the most remarkable acts of statesman ship. That his view was you cannot remain locked into dogmatic ideology positions in the Thermo Nuclear age. Because if you do, were going somewhere very bad very very soon. As for how he would manage World Affairs today, Nuclear Affairs today. Thats a difficult one. It makes me as a historian uncomfortable to extrapolate. I dont think he ever foresaw proliferation. For all this vision and scientific interests i think he probably suspected that britain, russia and america would be the only members of the nuclear club. Im in the sure he would have anticipated what we have. Not just talking about north korea. But others in the world. That would have been a challenge to him. Okay. [ applause ] sunday on cspan q and a. Lee edwards chronicles his 60 year involvement in the conservative movement. I met general mcar thi through my father. And he was a hail fellow well met. He liked to party. He liked to drink or two. And as long as you didnt talk about communism you couldnt ask for a more fun guy to be with. Hes very serious about that. And he was also someone who didnt take advice very well. And he said things and even did things that hurt the cau