Please welcome edwin a sands. Edwina sands. [applause] edwina good morning. Can you hear me all right . Clear as a bell, i hope. It is lovely to be here for another conference. Each one i come to seems to be even better than the last. We have kevin, kevin ruane here, who has written this very, very good book, churchill and the bomb. One of my grandfathers best quotations, and there are so many to choose from, is this one. The farther backward we can look, the farther forward you are likely to see. We think, most of us, that history is past. Done and dusted, over with, just a memory. But history has a way of coming back to bite us. As Ronald Reagan said, here we go again. I remember when the cold war was over. But then it wasnt. I remember farther back when people were scared of the abomb, and then worse, of the hbomb. And now today, the specter of nuclear war has once again reared its ugly head. Kevin ruane is professor of modern history at Canterbury ChristChurch University in United Kingdom. He has written quite a few books, one on vietnam, and one is coming out very shortly on anthony eden. And that will be a very interesting one because, for me, he had such a long history with grandpapa. He is working on now something that i am really, really hoping to get my hands on, but it is not in physical form yet. It is a book on Graham Greene, and it will be called Graham Greene in love and war. [laughter] edwina there is a lot to be said. I think it will show how fact and fiction is hard to separate. And we get a bit of that today here. Nobody thought that was funny. Ok. [laughter] edwina anyway, kevins book churchill and the bomb in war and cold war is timely today. It covers the close relationship with lord chartwell. I knew him slightly, like i was a fly on the wall because he was often there. But he did not relate much to the children, or the children did not relate much to him. He had a much more fun time with monty. Field marshal montgomery, who would play croquet and took a real interest in people. Anyway, the prof was an important person for grandpapa because grandpapa could bat ideas back and forth with him on science, and it wasnt the house of commons. He could try to work out his own ideas and what he felt and understood. So, the prof was a very important person, and it is one of the things i have been interested in in this book. So now, i give you the wonderful kevin ruane, who will tell us some things about his book. [applause] kevin thank you, edwina. Is this mic ok . Thank you, a very generous introduction. It is great to be back again, so thank you to the whole family for giving me this platform two years in a row. It is a great honor. I thought i would begin by saying a little bit about how i came to write this book. How i came to churchill and the bomb. Big man, big subject. It really began about five years ago, when i was asked to do work by the churchill archives. That is to say the online digital repository of all of churchills papers, which you have heard about from lawrence amongst others already in the conference. Close to one million individual images, so from his mother all the way to the cold war. The archive is a joint venture between churchill college, or the Archive Center where the materials originally are. This is one of the jewels in the crown of this digital age, and although it is subscription only for universities and what i call grown up organizations, it has already freed school kids in the usa, and other places. I think they deserve around of applause for that, frankly. [applause] kevin there are not many fantastic things around that are completely free these days. But this is one of them. I was asked to do a web essay on churchill and Nuclear Weapons to illustrate aladdins cave of riches that is this archive. In doing the original research, i came across a churchill that i only dimly knew existed. This is a fantastic scientific imagination and vision. The churchill who as a teenager was devouring sciencefiction, particularly the work of hg wells. The time machine before i get the quote, i know gary oldman. O gary oldman. m n i think the oscar is safe, i hope, after that magnificent performance. But churchills speech pattern was so idiosyncratic, i cannot quote him without trying a little churchillian rumbling. So, if you will permit me that if you would allow me that. , the time machine, churchill said, [imitating churchill] is one of the books i would like to take with me to purgatory. And in 1931, he went on to say he had read all of hg wells books with such closeness that i could take examination in them. Beyond this, i discovered a churchill of striking scientific vision who, in the interwar years, was regularly publishing on scientific themes. Mass circulation newspapers like news of the world. From this interwar scientific writing, two things emerge. Churchill recognized that scientific programs would be ongoing. It was probably going to be a force for good. It was the new enlightenment. It would bring betterment to the masses. But at the same time, churchill also worried that mankind might not be mature enough to deal with the gifts science was about to bestow, and science might have its dark side. One of the doubleedged swords was Nuclear Energy. Modern Nuclear Physics came of age in the 1950s, with newspapers carrying stories about the potentiality if the power of nature could be harnessed. Potentialities of the constructive kind. Newspaper carrying stories about the potentiality of something else, maybe atomic weapons. I would like to give you a couple of examples of the kinds of things he was riding in the interwar period. Churchill got to know the prof in the early 1920s, and it was a very close friendship, but also scientific mentoring relationship. This piece, 1924, ominously entitled shall we commit suicide . In this article, churchill writes as follows. He suggests that the poison gas of the First World War might be the first chapter of a terrible book of destructive science. Then, there are explosives, as science turned its last page on them. Might not a bomb no bigger than an orange be found in time to possess a secret power, to destroy a whole block of buildings . To concentrate the force of a thousand tons of quartite . How about this, that appeared in the christmas edition of the strand magazine . It is known as 50 years hence. He says, Nuclear Energy is incomparable to the Molecular Energy we use today. The man today can do 500 times the work of man himself. Nuclear energy is one million times more powerful spell. There is no question among scientists that this gigantic source of energy exists. What is lacking is the match to set the fire alight. The scientists are looking for this, the match. Within a year, 1932, two cambridge scientists had split the atom. And at liverpool university, another english scientist has shown that the neutron can penetrate the power chambers of the atom. The nucleus, where most of its mass and energy and power resides. 1932, the match has been found. 1933, january. Adolf hitler becomes chancellor of germany. Six years on, january 1939, two german scientists working in berlin proved in their laboratory experimentally that something called Nuclear Fission is realizable. In other words, the Nuclear Chain reaction using the heavier element uranium. They did it on a teeny laboratory scale, but all around the world as europe slips closer to the abyss, physicists corroborate their findings. It is agreed that if this could be done, Nuclear Fission on a large enough scale, you would have the most tremendous power source. Cheaper electricity for everybody. But by the same token, Nuclear Fission could also make for a superlative weapon of mass distraction. What a year to discover that, 1939. I would like to share with you one more piece of interwar churchill pop science, i suppose you would call it. Mass effects on modern life. It was written in 1925, but received a bigger audience when it appeared in this famous collection. In this, churchill gave us the following prediction. He said that it might be the military leader of some future world agony could extinguish london or paris, tokyo or san francisco, by pressing a button. Or by putting his initials neatly at the bottom of a piece of paper. That was 1925. 20 years on in 1945 as Prime Minister, churchill and his approval, he put his initial neatly on the bottom, he gave his approval to request from the u. S. Government that he agreed with them to use the atomic bomb against japan. In so doing, churchill did not just eerily live out his own premonition. He ensured the bombs that would hit hiroshima and nagasaki would bear a british and american seal of approval. More on that later. Let me go back to todays theme. And expanding that small essay to a book length treatment, i discovered the nuclear churchill, the nuclear statesman. Churchills career as a nuclear statesman splits into three chronological phases. If i may, i would like to run through those now. The first phase, it is the wartime phase. The first phase is what i call the atomic bomb maker phase. Let me take you back in time to 1941, more precisely to the 30th of august, 1941. Churchill is 15 months into his premiership. This country is in a desperate struggle for survival. On the 30th of august, 1941, his love of Science Fiction and the appliance of science to warfare, his belief in technology all come together along with the urgent promptings of the man in the bowler hat. Lindemann, his nuclear mentor. They come together to produce churchills approval for a british effort to develop an atomic bomb. It is codenamed tube alloys. I think we can all guess what the great spur is. The thought that the nazi scientists could put this in hitlers hands. In 1941, the United States enters the war. This pioneering british project becomes subsumed in the juggernaut, the leviathan, the monster that is the u. S. Manhattan project. From that point on, the United States drives this project, but the british are still there. As junior partners, but still there. We come to july 1945. Out in the wilds of new mexico, the world enters the nuclear age when a plutonium device is successfully tested to spectacular effect. July 1945. Codename, trinity. By then, hitler is dead, the third reich is a smoldering ruin, and the war in europe is over. The race, although won by the allies, the Atomic Program was no near as advanced as feared. But nonetheless. Out in the distant reaches of the pacific in asia, the war with japan grinds on and on and on. And so, to come full circle, on the second of july, 1945, Winston Churchill gave a British Green light to a request from the u. S. Government for the use of the bomb against japan. He gave that approval in keeping with the Mutual Consent clause signed with president roosevelt in quebec 1943. The Mutual Consent clause. Just over three weeks later, the second of july, Winston Churchill is not Prime Minister anymore. He has lost the general election. Labour is in. Not long after that, of course, we have the atomic endgame. On the sixth of august 1945, little boy, the codename for the uranian bomb, is dropped on hiroshima. It is dropped on. On the ninth of august, 1945, fat man, the codename for the plutonium bomb, is used. I think the impact of these two weapons of mass destruction is so wellknown i dont really need to underscore it. But churchill, the most important thing, although he is leader of the opposition, is that japan surrenders. For churchill, it is cause and effect. Surrender comes within five days of the second atomic bombing. Eight years later, 1953, 1954, in his final volume of the war, churchill maintained two things. First, the decision to use the bomb in 1945 was a joint decision between himself and president truman. The second thing he maintains, and i am going to quote him again, is the decision to use the bomb was never even an issue. His thinking went like this. In war, bombs get used. The allies were at war with japan in the summer of 1945. The atomic bombs were weapons of war. It is a fact you use those weapons. You use those weapons. Ethical qualms were for churchhill a luxury for others to indulge in, not one that he saw himself, tasked in defense of country, commonwealth, civilization. Bomb maker, phase one. The second phase of churchills nuclear career runs roughly from mid1945 to 1950, and it is slightly more controversial. It is called the wouldbe atomic warrior phase. Let me begin this one with vday, 1945. When churchill looked at the map of europe as he must have done, he did not like what he saw. He saw stalins red army. There was little or no sign that stalin was going to abide by earlier wartime agreements to allow freedom, democracy, free elections and so forth to flourish. No sign. Having fought the war with a sense to save the continent on the tyranny of the right, nazism, fascism, was the tyranny of the left. But what about western europe . The democracies needed to get their act together. This is when the atomic bomb began to enter churchills mind. Churchill first learned of the successful test of the bomb, 16 july, 1950, when he was attending the final victory conference of the war, the potsdam. The diary of this man i could have given you other diarists the diary of this man gives us an insight and other insights that corroborate it into churchills reaction of that first atomic test. Churchill said we now have something in our hands that would address the balance with the russians. And he writes in his diary, churchill pushing his chin out and scowling, now we could say to stalin, if you insist on doing this, we can blot out stalingrad, krakow, and now where are the russians . Three days after that diary entry, 23 july, churchill is not the Prime Minister anymore. The next days, the atomic bombs are visited on japan. Churchill did not have time to factor this new atomic power into his russia policy, his soviet policy. But we have a good idea of his thinking. For example he, on august 7, the day after hiroshima, he had lunch with this man. He wrote this, churchill is of the opinion that it was with the manufacture of this bomb in their hands, america can dominate the world for the next five years. He is of the opinion that he could have persuaded the American Government to use this power to restrain the russians. Churchill starts talking about a showdown, that is the word he uses. Uses it repeatedly, showdown. A nuclear themed showdown. A headtohead with stalin, where stalin is told, send the red army out, abide by wartime agreements, or else. Dot, dot, dot. A nuclear infused showdown. In early 1950, this was churchills repeatedly if privately expressed view, to all who listened. Particularly successive ambassadors to london. Opposition is freer to express themselves than those in power. But even allowing for that, for churchills showmanship, the consistency over five years, the vehemence with which he discoursed over the idea of a showdown suggests to me some, at least seriousness of intent. Just one example must suffice as the clock begins to run against me. November 1947, he met William Mckenzie king, the former canadian Prime Minister. Kings diary tells us that churchill wanted to tell stalin that the nations have had enough of this war of nerves and intimidation. If you do not agree to pull out of poland and Eastern Europe here and now within so many days, we will attack moscow and your other cities and destroy them with atomic bombs from the air. We will not allow tyranny to continue. In the end, of course, the atomic menaces that churchill had in mind, the punishment of the kremlin for not abiding by democratic principles in Eastern Europe, was never in churchills gift to deliver. It was in Harry Trumans gift. It was in americas gift. To churchills dismay, the United States never got remotely close to using its atomic monopoly in the kind of threatening, diplomatic manner that churchill evidently desired. The final phase of churchills nuclear career begins in early 1950. I say begins. It was the beginning of a transformation. It would see churchill move from would be atomic warrior to nuclear peacemaker. Extraordinary transition. It begins in 1950. Let me give you a tiny bit of background. In august 1949, the american atomic monopoly ended when the soviet union tested its first atomic bomb. Here it is. In the west as well, there was alarm and anxiety and fear occasioned by this soviet atomic breakthrough. In january 1950, the United States responded. President truman announced that the United States would forge ahead with developing the Hydrogen Bomb, the super, it was nicknamed. A thermonuclear weapon. A monstrous device, potentially 1000 times as powerful as the puny things used against japan. This was a serious, serious weapon, if it could be made. Now against this backdrop, there was a general election. An election in february 1950. In the midst of that election, churchill calls for an eastwest summit. The first time apparently the word summit had been used to describe a meeting of the leaders of great power. He calls for an eastwest summit to see if relations can now be regulated, so the cold war does not escalate into a hot war with its nuclear menaces. Labour immediately accused churchill of exploiting the Nuclear Anxieties of voters, and there may be something in that. But equally, he was very worried now by that soviet bomb. He was worried as well by the fact that soviet armors have the range to reach europe and britain, but not north america. He was aware that britain, this small landmass with a concentrated population in 10 or 12 big cities, was especially vulnerable. Well, labour wins the 1950 election, but they do not win it by very much. Another election happens in october 1951, and this time, winston wins it. Not by much, a 16 seat majority, but the point is winston is back again. A year on exactly, october 1952, britain tests its own First Nuclear weapon. Suddenly, the nuclear club has three members. But it is not a club of nuclear equals. A few months later, august 1953, britain is left standing. The soviet Union Announces to the world that it now has the Hydrogen Bomb. Its won the thermonuclear race. The United States had already tested one, but they did not officially confirm it. It didnt matter. For churchill, this development was distressing. It chilled him to the marrow. By the end of 1953, he can be found privately predicting that if hot war came and with the u. K. Vulnerable, all we hold dear, ourselves, our families, and our treasures will be emolated. Even if some of us survive under contaminated rubble, there will be nothing left to do but to take a pill to end it all. Out of the dark, dark shadow of the Hydrogen Bomb in 1954 emerges churchill, the nuclear peacemaker. Churchill, the disciple of detente, now looking for peaceful coexistence between the cold war blocs. No more did he talk of showdowns. It was a campaign of peace. It became his obsession. There must be a summit, because a summit was the first step to what he called chaining the nuclear monster. Sadly, it was not to be. Churchill never made it to the summit. President eisenhower, amongst other things, was not madly keen to rush to the table. Stalin had died and his successors began talking the talk of peace. Eisenhower said, i want deeds of peace, not just words. No need to rush, winston, but that is not what an 80yearold winston needed to hear. He knew the clock was running down. And the clock does run down. In april 1955, he finally steps down as Prime Minister in favor of anthony eden here. The cold war continued, and so did the danger of hot war and nuclear war. But the final great surprise of my work on this was to discover churchill, the nuclear visionary. At the very end of his political life. It would be a good 10 years before this concept really got traction, the mid1960s. Mutually assured destruction. Dr. Strangelove. We all know it. Winston got there first. A good 10 years earlier. And i want to close by giving you two examples of what i call the madness of Winston Churchill. Thats m. A. D. Ness. He is nearly 79 years of age. He talks in the house of commons about nuclear saturation. Saturation, both sides having lots of these weapons. She looked forward, he said, to a future where the advance of destructive weapons enables everyone to kill everybody else, because then nobody will want to kill anybody at all. If that is not a description of mutually assured destruction, i dont know what is. In his final great speech before parliament in march 1955 on the Hydrogen Bomb, he left mps the same message. There might in the future be a Nuclear Balance in the world, and that would not be a bad thing. It would be a sublime irony, that it could be that safety will be the sturdy charge of terror, and survival the twin of annihilation. In the meantime, he closed, never flinch, never weary, never despair. And with that, he sat down after 55 years a parliamentarian, and never got up to make another major speech in the house of commons again. What a way to go. There is a fine book on two speeches, but that speech is up there for me with many of his great speeches. Look, i am effectively done. That for me is the nuclear statesman. You get three in one. You have the nuclear bomb maker, the earlier atomic warrior, and you get the great transformation into a conviction driven disciple of detente. It was quite a journey from his nuclear starting point to his nuclear ending point, but i have to say, i have not had as much fun, if you can have fun with a subject like this, as i did in writing that book. Thank you for your time and attention. [applause] mr. Ruane i feel i need to wait for the mic. I think maybe ladies first. Hi. There is a rather terrifying story about my grandfather. It gets one a bit worried. But i am glad it turned out well in the end. Mr. Ruane i think i described him as a nuclear learner. In the space of 10 years, he went across the spectrum. He had to learn like a lot of people learned, and what he learned in the end is if you stick rigidly to dogmatic and ideological positions and churchill was if nothing an anticommunist in the nuclear age, sticking to those positions could lead to calamity. That is why by 1954, he was talking about peaceful coexistence, which was a very hard thing for him to do, because peaceful coexistence effectively meant no longer overtly trying to free Eastern Europe, trying to challenge and confront soviet control. It was simply too dangerous, particularly for a United Kingdom within range. At that point, he felt uniquely vulnerable. Sorry, sir. You mentioned that the bomb that was dropped in hiroshima had a uranium base while the bomb dropped on nagasaki had a plutonium base. I have always described them as atomic bombs that did a lot of damage. Can you explain the types of bombs they dropped . Mr. Ruane i wont go heavy into the science, but initially the heavy element uranium was a thing everyone was working on early in the war. In trying to enrich uranium, it is a particular isotope. In the process of trying to get the core of the uranium bomb, a byproduct in what we call reactors today, a byproduct was plutonium. Which they were able to farm. The tony him as a byproduct, trying to make an exploding uranium core, it has a byproduct that turns out to be just as fissionable, and more explosive. The scientists were confident the uranium bomb would work, so it was not tested in new mexico. They were not so confident about the destination mechanisms for the plutonium bomb, and that is why the trinity. Test was eight plutonium test that was a result of a plutonium bomb. They ended up with two versions. Thank you very much. Mr. Ruane do we need to wait for the mic . This gentleman first and we will pass it down the table. Just a point to elaborate on and that is the soviets obtained information to create a bomb or espionage, yet they didnt do the original research. Number two, somewhere along the line, the u. S. Disallowed the relationship with the brits in terms of information on further Atomic Energy development. Comment on those . Mr. Ruane there is no doubt the atomic projects were penetrated by soviet agents, and the information as i understand it that was funneled to the soviets contributed to the bomb. I think that is accepted, despite the fact that the general went to elaborate efforts to keep this thing hermetically sealed. Your second point was that the british decide they can no longer do a bomb project on their own. They decide that really early 1942ish. It is too expensive. You are vulnerable to bombing. There were a lot of reasons why merger with the United States was a good idea. The two come together in 1942, but very quickly, the United States outstrips anything that u. K. Can contribute to the project, and there are interest within the Manhattan Project that dont see the need anymore it was called atomic interchange with the u. K. Churchill points at a distressing development. There were people in the know who found it distressing. I mentioned the quebec agreement. It takes seven or eight months of personal churchill diplomacy working with fdr to get the british back into the partnership, but it is not a partnership of equals. It is one dominant partner in the british as the supporting act. The biggest exclusion comes after the war. It doesnt just shut the u. K. Out, but shuts other countries out as well. Pure speculation, but would churchill filmore marketable with the nixonkissinger detente school or the Ronald ReaganStrength School . Mr. Ruane i have thought about this, because you cannot research this era of history without this contemporary nances in yourreso mind. I think it depends where along that nuclear journey you hold churchill and say what would he be like . I prefer, as i expect edwina does, the churchill of the end. The peacemaker. I think that if you accept that churchills anticommunism ran very deep, notwithstanding his efforts to get on with stalin, for him by 1953, 1954 to embrace peaceful coexistence suggests to me one of the most remarkable acts of statemanship. If you do, we are going somewhere very bad very soon. As to how he would manage World Affairs today, that is a very difficult one. It makes me a little uncomfortable to extrapolate, but one thing i would say briefly because i expect my time is running out, i dont think he ever foresaw it. For all of his vision and scientific interest, i think he probably suspected that britain, russia, and america would be the only members of the nuclear club. I am not sure he would anticipate what we currently not. And i dont just mean north korea, i mean six or seven other Nuclear Powers in the world. I think that would have been a challenge. Ok. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] interested in American History tv, visit our website. It presents a recreation of a 1948 Womens Rights Convention held in seneca falls. The film also includes events leading up to, and in the years following the convention and segments with male and female teenagers debating their views on equal rights. The National Archives restored the film and posted it to the youtube channel