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To join the conversation, like us on facebook at cspan history. Announcer next on history bookshelf, Sandra Grimes talks about her book circle of treason the cia account of traitor aldrich ames and the men he betrayed. She chronicles her work as a cia agent to hunt down and capture the cia mole who compromised the secondlargest amount of assets in cia history. She was one of five cia principles cast tasked with rooting out aldrich ames and building a case against him. This is about an hour. Host we are very fortunate with us to have Sandra Grimes this afternoon. She has quite a remarkable story to tell, a story from inside the cia where she worked for years, hired by the cia right out of college in 1967. She spent two and a half decades rising through the agencys ranks and assignments working against the soviet union and Eastern European countries. She was about to resign in 1991 when she was asked to stay for one more assignment. That assignment involves joining a five person team charged with figuring out why so many of the cias most valued soviet assets had been executed or imprisoned several years earlier. The investigation ended up exposing one of the most destructive traders in u. S. History, aldrich ames, a cia counterIntelligence Officer. Since his conviction in 1994, ames has been serving a life sentence. Circle of treason. , was the first account from inside the cia not only of how aldrich ames was caught but of the men that he betrayed. Sandy wrote it with another longtime Agency Member who participated in the investigation. Their book was First Published a little over a year ago in 2012 jean passed away at the end of 2012. But their story has gained fresh attention as the result of the miniseries, the asset, which started airing last month. There has been a lot of focus on women at the cia. The movie, zero dark 30 played up for role of female undercover officer tracking down osama bin laden, the popular showtime series homeland revolves around female analyst. Sandys reallife experience lacked some of the drama of these fictionalized characters and she told me also that one of her conditions putting together the assets was her character have no affairs. She put her foot down. Old school, she says. But sandy definitely remains a very bright and determined intelligence professional who did our country a very great service. A review of her book in the Washington Times calls circle of treason the cia account of traitor aldrich ames and the men he betrayed the most gripping insider accounts of a counterintelligence operations that you will ever read. Ladies and gentlemen please join , me in welcoming Sandra Grimes. [applause] sandra thank you very much. Can everybody hear me . I have to take my glasses off to see my notes. All right. I am delighted to be here to talk about our book circle of treason or co before i get started my remarks , are going to be fairly brief because i want to leave a lot of time for your questions and i will be glad to answer, i assume, most of them i will be i will be able to. , i also want to say i am here to represent my good friend and coauthor jean vertafay. As i tell you about our journey to determine who or what caused the wholesale loss of our soviet in 1986. 1985 and in 1991, that led us to search for a traitor in cia. To make matters worse, we knew he wouldnt be a stranger. He would be a coworker, a colleague, someone we had known for a very long time, and someone we probably saw everyday in the hallways of our headquarters building. But it is not just a story of how we identified a spy. It is much more than that. For the first time, jean and i are able to tell the history of cias contacts with his victims. Many of their stories are ours as well. We participated in the handling of a number of these cases and we watched as those we knew were arrested and executed. Always concerned that we might have made a mistake which led to , their deaths is the burden no one wants to carry. But i have to be completely honest, that is what a number of us in cia had to do for the next eight years. Until our mole was identified. You may have noticed i have yete to mention his name. We all know it is aldrich ames, k as he was known to us. And yes, he was a colleague. And for me personally, he and i were carpool partners in the mid1970s. And on 1985, aldrich ames april 16, decided to walk through the front door of the soviet embassy, Downtown Washington d. C. Sixteenth street and volunteer his services to the soviet union. Two months later, he also decided to provide his kgb handlers with the names of identifying information on every single one of our human sources reporting on the soviet union. Those who were currently reporting, those who were long retired, those who were dormant. And in doing so, he knew full well what fate awaited them. They would be a arrested, they would be interrogated, they would face a trial, they would be convicted, and they would be executed. A bullet to the back of the head. Is 1985. And our nightmare begins. Vulcan invokv who we are handling in athens, greece, received a cable from his headquarters saying you are to return to moscow. He decides to defect and we bring him safely to the u. S. Early august, our kgb assets, arrested in moscow during of a home leave. Sometime between late august and inly october, are asset lisbon, portugal is also arrested in moscow also during a home leave. November 6, our kgb asset in washington d. C. Boards and their a flight at dulles bound for moscow. Over and back, short trip. We never see him again. Again, early november. Our kgb asset in west germany travels to east berlin for a three day conference. He disappears. In 1986, february, our kgb asset in moscow is arrested. June or july, as best as we can in moscow is asset arrested. July 7, 1986, our long retired g. R. U. Asset is arrested in moscow, one day after his 65th birthday. He is the highest ranking soviet Intelligence Officer this government has ever run. To 1987,rtunately, in our kgb asset in moscow, long retired, is arrested. So here we are, it is the end of 1985, and obviously something is seriously wrong. Two possible explanations. We either have a human penetration of cia, or our communications have been compromised. In other words they are reading our traffic. What do we do . Our first action was taken in response to a new volunteer. In january of 1986, a soviet Intelligence Officer volunteered to cia. Now, our goal was simple. We got to try to keep this one alive. We have no idea whether it is a traitor or technical penetration, so we have to guard against each possibility. With respect to the traitor side of the equation, we institute what we still to this day still affectionately call draconian security measures. We simply eliminate almost everybody from those who are aware of our new asset. Now, we have got to address the technical side. With respect to our Staff Communications and the possibility that they are reading traffic on soviet cases. Well, this one was a little bit more difficult, so we basically punted. We ignored Staff Communications. We did not, there was zero cable traffic between headquarters and the field station where our new asset was located. We went back to basics to communicate. As we affectionately also say, it was not the stone age but it , was pretty close. Although we did have something that was sort of out of this world at the time. Ok. We have our new asset, he is okay. We are keeping this one alive. Enter my coauthor jean vertasay assignment in libreville as our chief of station. She returns to headquarters in the middle of the 1986, and she is tapped with trying to determine what the heck happened. She has a Small Task Force of people who begin this effort. Jean ande same time, her people are looking at our losses, the fbi has also established a task force. They suffered similar problems with their soviet cases during the same time period as we. Alright. Now we are going to have to fastforward. It is early 1991, a little over five years, we still do not have a clue as to what happened. Not a clue. Now, that is not to say that there were not plenty of explanations, plenty of leads. There were lots. Each was fully investigated and each was discarded. Meanwhile the fbi also doesnt , have a clue as to what caused their losses. However, there is a bit of good news. Since we instituted those draconian security measures we havent lost a single new source. And the number of reporting sources on the soviet union had continued to increase and we were able to keep every single one of them alive. Because of this, there were some people in senior positions in cia, who believed that what had happened in 1985 and in 1986 was largely a historical problem. It might be nice to know the answer but it was not affecting , our current operations. We were doing just fine. We were once again back in business. Enter jean again. She was facing mandatory retirement at the end of 1992. She still felt terribly guilty that she had been unable to answer the question as to why we suffered so many losses during that awful period, and she wanted to spend the rest of her time until mandatory retirement taking one more look at these cases. There had to be an answer. Viewed this as a solitary effort. It would only be jean. However, that was soon to change. I have to be completely honest. It was really due to happenstance that i ended up working with her looking for the , answer, as did two fbi employees, one was a special agent and one a soviet analyst. Eventually we added a fifth , member to our little task force, cia officer, our office of security. Now, the book takes you for our search for a traitor. Out of approximately 160 cia employees who over the years had , access to information about one or more of our lost cases. The investigation itself, i will use one of jeans favorite words anypronged, and it really involved just simply months of mindnumbing work with the occasional nugget which kept us going. That and is not to say there wasnt a eureka moment. There was. And it occurred in early august, 1992, just about a year after we had been our group had been assembled. Time, i had been given the task of creating a chronology of all of ricks activities from 1985 until the present, 1992. That particular august morning i was able to connect the dates of meetings he was having with the soviet development of contact in washington d. C. With cash deposits he had made to one of his local checking accounts. This was the first link that would lead to his arrest and his conviction. It was cash. It was after meetings with the soviet national, who was knocked an Intelligence Officer, arms control specialist. He really was what he said he was. And every one of these deposits, at that time there were only three we had records of. Every one of them was below the 10,000 reporting requirement that the feds had put on the banks at the time. Alright. Lastly, where we ever afraid he was going to get away with treason . You bet we were. All enough, it happened as our task force was drawing to a close in early 1993. , the fbionths prior analyst began to prepare a report of our findings. Now this was not a cia document. , it was an official fbi document, because we were turning everything over to them. Jeanne and i definitely had a say in the draft stages of the paper, but the final wording was beyond our control. And as we understood it, when the report came out in march of 1993, it did not identify rich ames as the primary suspect. It did, however, have his name on a short list of other possible suspects. Four for jeanne and myself it was a very difficult time. We were convinced aldrich ames was our traitor. We spent two years looking for him and our analysis proved that to be the case. We also knew the fbi did not share our belief and would continue to focus on others on their new short list. Thankfully, and it truly is thankfully, Additional Information became available which it did not identify him, but it certainly pointed in his direction. And most importantly it forced the fbi to open a fullscale investigation of aldrich ames. One year later, february 21, 1994, president s day, a government holiday, and we were at work. Is arrested around the corner from his house. He was on his way to cia headquarters to answer a fictitious cable. However, not very long after that his wife was arrested at their home. Both of them eventually pled guilty to espionage. Rosario received five years which she served in a federal , facility in danbury, connecticut. Upon her release she was stripped of her u. S. Citizenship. She was a naturalized citizen and deported to columbia. Rick received life. And you know, i was just thinking it is almost 20 years, coming up on 20 years. And he is at alanwood federal penitentiary in pennsylvania. Still residing there. As i mentioned at the beginning, jeanne and i are most proud the at we have finally been given permission to be able to tell the story of our assets. They are about real people, real spying and real contributions. And most important, jeanne and i, and to so many others at the cia understood when these soviet Intelligence Officers for the most part volunteered their services to the United States government, they knew they were putting their lives in our hands. And we, meaning cia, failed them. We couldnt repay them for their sacrifices and we certainly couldnt repay their families for their losses. But we did owe each and every one of them an answer. That was our goal, that was our mission, and that really is the story of circle of treason. Note . Ons on that sad [applause] yes . So this happened over 20 years ago. With todays technology, with data mining and predicted analytics do you think that , would have accelerated you or helped you in your search . Sandra no. Not at all. I will use this as an example. Aldrich ames had no personal meetings here in washington d. C. All his personal meetings with his kgb handlers were abroad. However, he managed, just like bob hansen from the fbi, it f you keep it simple it usually tends to work. The basics usually dont fail you in spying. He loaded drops, he made signal sites, he unloaded drops comment completewas under technical coverage by the fbi and they are very good at that. And the phones were bugged, cameras everywhere. House itt just at his , was at cia headquarters. There were beacons on his car. So no, all that stuff, not in the terms of the spying that we did. Questions, please. [indiscernible] i remember at the time the report talked about consumption, increased fluids, and it has been a long time, but i remember questions about how could people not see his increased influence . And why that did not raise questions. Increasedck and his consumption, and one thing you read in the papers all the time, was his red jaguar. Lets put it this way. Rick, as i said, walked in, started to work for the soviets in april of 1985. You saw zero change in aldrich ames until he returned from a tour in rome. That was in 1989. He was still the slovenly rick ames i had always known. Truly. But rick said, this was his cover story, that he had gotten the money from his wifes family, rosario. Her father had died in the mid 80s. We knew they were from a wellconnected family in colombia. As a matter of fact, the family as it turned out, the extended family gave the land to build the largest soccer fields in bogota. Rosario, who met rick when they were both assigned to mexico city, she was with the colombia n embassy. She was there secretary. She got an appointment from the president of colombia, so it was not out of the question that obviously some of this money came from her side of the family. But i always say this with respect to that stupid red jaguar. Rick and i parked in the same garage. This was while we were on the task force. I had to walk past three read d jaguars before i got to my car and one was ricks. [laughter] sandra this wasnt out of the ordinary. The same, i might add, you didnt ask the question with respect to ricks drinking. Jeanne and i had known him for 20 years. We were not close friends, but we were closer in age and we had grown up as young officers together in the organization. Parties,he christmas which were very nice affairs in the golden days i never saw rick , drunk ever. You read all this stuff. He was a binge drinker, particularly after he had married rosario. This was his second marriage. She was out of the country, or out of town, he would get drunk. I think it was this sort of i , owe myself one. And i never met rosario. But she apparently was so difficult that her lawyers couldnt stand her. Even the poor bureau guys listening to the phone. [laughter] sandra they thought rick was abused. [laughter] sandra so a human touch to aldrich ames. And i will add one more thing, if you had told me aldrich ames was going to be one of the worst traitors this country had ever seen i would have said no in the , early days. Not the aldrich ames i knew. And i knew him since 1973. So yes . Were there other people around you other than rick ames that drew more suspicion and had you thought about what was the distinction between him and the others that he seemed to be not suspect to such an extreme degree . And do you know what ever happened to rosario . Sandra i will answer what happened to rosario. I dont have a clue. I suspect she is alive and well and living the good life in bogota where her family is. They did have one child, paul is his name. And he is in his 20s now. When rosario went off to jail, her mother took paul back to colombia where he was raised. He was 5 or 6 at the time. Rick had no children by his first marriage. What am i answering . What was the question again . Why he was so not suspect. Where there others who were more suspect . Sandra i am not going to tell you their names if they were. However this is a story, fairly long story. When we started the task force, we have 160 people, there is no way we can investigate 160 without an army. We had to find some way to prioritize. It was simple, not scientific, and roundly criticized after ricks arrest. We had four members of our task individuals, other four from the cia and two from the fbi. We asked them to please privately write down on a piece of paper im almost embarrassed to tell this story. Ive told it so many times. The names of five or six people who made them uneasy. Dont forget, were looking for a traitor here. Made them uneasy and individuals they thought we should take a close look at first. Okay. Then we asked them to please put them in rank order. The one that made you the most uneasy, second and so on down. This was not a contest you wanted to win. We took the submissions, totaled all the numbers, and a real surprise. Rick ames came out on top. He had the most points. 21. And i will toot my own horn here, as i say, i will use jeannes words. Of all those who voted, only sandy gets the gold star. She had him in first place. Now, here we are. We have a new short list. Rick wasnt the only one who got more than one or two points. What we did, though, we looked at the small group first. Eventually ames became our primary target, our primary focus. That is not to say we didnt continue to look at the rest of the people by this time, probably 150, 200 on the list. We concentrated on those on the short list. So that sort of how it got sorted out. So, these events were 85, 86, 87, and the task force was formed when . Sandra 91. I got there in may and the bureau guys got there in the end of june. And a timeline question. How long did the four of your meet before you zeroed in and thought he was prime. Sandra it was about a year. It was less than a year. It was less than a year. Reka moment came a little bit more than a year, and then there was no question. Then there was no question. Well, it wasnt a question to sandy and jeanne. So the rest was getting the data to support . then what happened, the bureau, in 1993, came in after we got that Additional Information. They got the fisa approvals, and then it was truly an investigative affair. Obviously were very involved with the justice department, and the attorneys, because they want evidence to be able to prove espionage charges. Lawyers its one of the worst cases in the world to have to try. Theyd like to catch them in the act. But we didnt. My question is, how did they vet the members of the program to make sure you werent the mole . That must have been unbelievable . Did they take a chance . Sandra i have to say youre the second person to ever ask me the question. I think its a great question because it would be the first id ask. Jeanne and i both had to be it was crazy. We were fortunate in that, while she and i knew almost all the sources, we had been doing different things. In 1985, 84 and 85. She was unaware of the new sources, the current ones, and i was handling all of our activity related to soviet and east europeans in africa. Now, i certainly was aware of one of the cases. He was one my branch was responsible for keeping alive. And that was colonel juke in nigeria. But because we had insufficient knowledge, and but youre correct, we both did have to be repollied. It had been determined that sandy and jeanne were going to work together, and the fbi guys were going to come over. So then we got news, youre going to have a polygraph, and i will never forget that day. I said jeanne says, youll do just fine. I said thats because i have to go first. But i got a speeding ticket that day on the way to the polygraph office. Yes. Were the five of you was the rest of the agency aware you were in this hunt or was it kept sandra no. We didnt keep it from anybody. Thats an important distinction. This was not going to be a paper exercise. Like the first time around. We were looking for a human penetration of cia. Rick was aware of it. We interviewed rick cant use the word, the bureau didnt like to us use that word we talk to people who were aware of the operations to gather more information about how paper was really handled. You can read what it says in a file. Nowdays in emails. But you really dont know the interaction of people. So, two questions. Im surprised that he could walk into the soviet embassy in washington, d. C. And didnt wasnt that embassy under surveillance . And, two, i wonder if there was a moment before he was arrested when he realized you knew who he was, or if not, what was it like to have to work once you realized it was him but you hadnt he hadnt been arrested yet, how difficult was it to have to deal with him . Sandra it was more than difficult. I think most of the time were pretty good actors and actresses, but that was tough, and i will say personally, confession i smoked during those days. And you couldnt smoke in the building so i would go out to the courtyard to have my cigarette. Rick was very heavy smoker. And because were friends, acquaintances, hed always come over. What are you doing today, sandy . How is the search going . Oh, its i stopped smoking. [laughter] i was so afraid i was going to mess it up. So i stopped but, you know, in hindsight, i didnt have a thing to worry about. Rick was so arrogant. There was no way that two ladies add two fbi guys, are ever going to catch me. Youre absolutely right, the bureau has coverage. So, what did rick do . He after he leaves the soviet union i mean leaves the soviet embassy, he calls his buddies i assume in the Washington Field office and said, if you see a guy that went into the embassy at 1 15 p. M. Today, its i. Now, he had sort of an excuse for being there, sort of. We, at cia headquarters, never knew that he walked into the embassy. Until later during the investigation. When the bureau was basically handling things. However, at the time, beginning in early 1985, rick was developing, as i said, a soviet national. An arms control specialist. There was nothing out of the ordinary. Rick doing this job. His contact with this individual was known to fbi headquarters, cia headquarters. It was he reported the contacts to each during this developmental phases, and that particular day, rick was scheduled to have a meeting with the man at the mayflower, and the man, who doesnt want anything to do with this rick was an alias this american that means if i have something to do with this american, ive got to report it to the kgb. That is not something that most soviet citizens wanted any part of. So, he kept ignoring rick, and that day, scheduled lunch, chuvakan does not show up, and rick throws down three or four vodkas. Thats when the drinking a little courage, and decides he is going to walk right into that embassy, and if he is ever asked he will just say i got sick and tired of being stood up by this punk. So i walked in. And guess what . He showed up for the next scheduled meeting. So he had cover for action. As we say. You mentioned it was the finding of the fbi report and the way it was structured, could have either made or broken your case. Was there an internal path within the cia you would have followed otherwise, they would have followed up on their open just based on the level of effort you had already put in . Sandra i dont know the answer to that question. All i know is i only know two things. One, when jeanne and i first started this, we always knew we would be able to identify who our traitor was. In our wildest dreams we never, ever imagined that he would be convicted and go to jail. That just wouldnt happen. We would be able to answer the question internally, and the fbi report god, i dont know. It was an official fbi document. Did we make mistakes . Yes. And i think probably one thing we talk about in the book that we certainly should have done, but we didnt werent even thinking about it. These are our buddies were working with. The fbi and the cia. These were not strangers here, and theres no question we were surprised at the final report. How and why that happened is beyond me. I dont know. But in hindsight, we probably when that came out, yes, we should have done that ahead of time. On the off chance because we didnt know what the official final paper was going to look like. We should have written our own. These are our beliefs, rick, blah, and this is the reason, but we didnt. Caused lots of problems. This is about the tv program. I watched the two episodes that were aired. Is there any way to see the other episodes . I would like to see them as well. I will say this, there is hope. And there is the reason there is hope is because the president of abc announced to the press that the assets will be shown in some format, whether its cable, whether its netflix, whether its back on abc proper. Now, he said that one week after he cancelled us. But no, i have hope. I have hope. Its sort of one of these, stay tuned. I did get to see episode three, and its much better than the first two. To the going to write president of abc and complain. Sandra there is still hope. Another thing i will say for any of you who watched it, there is some creative license. Number one, i have never made pancakes in my life. And i certainly have never prepared a hot breakfast for my family during the week. Ever. And it was always cold cereal in the cars as i took them to the babysitter. And no milk. Dry. Yes . My name is jordan and what did you think about the new tv show the assets . Sandra well, it was a world that obviously id never been a part of, and i will laugh, though. I wish that it happened maybe 20 years ago. A lot more fun. However, for you ladies here, the day i was on Good Morning America i had a professional Makeup Artist who traveled with me the entire day. For each it was wonderful. For days,wash my face either. And false eyelashes. It was fun. Thank you. Sandra youre quite welcome. You said that you checked his bank records, and im just wondering in terms of employee confidentiality and stuff, do agents, cia agents, sign a release that how do you get access . Sandra called the National Intelligence letter or Something Like that. I have to tell you, i didnt know it existed simply because i was never involved in personnel security. But it is part of the authority of the director of cia, but only in a counterintelligence case. In other words, there has to be some suspicion. Evidence . Sandra i wouldnt call it evidence. There was certainly circumstantial. Theres no question. There was circumstantial. Now, it also included brokerage houses, bank accounts, checking accounts. However, they could say no, and in ricks case, they did. But what they said no. But the big thing was, i would say, part of it wasnt just his bank accounts. Credit card accounts, and Little Things would come up. I cant believe he was so sloppy well, i guess i can. Hed charge an airline ticket, new york to vienna, austria, and we were under the rules and regulations as a cia employee, you traveled anywhere out of the country, whether it was for pleasure vacation you had to get approval from the office of security to do that, and rick had not done that, and of all austria, thea, hotbed of spying east and west . So there were Little Things like that. I have to say, as we were going along, its probably like a police investigation. If youre looking for a murder suspect, or you are trying to eliminate rick as your suspect. Every piece of information. You dont want to get the wrong guy. What did you determine were his motivations . Sandra simple greed. It was money. Now, money, though, with, again, a little bit of a twist. Jeanne and i are absolutely convinced if it had not been for rosario, rick never would have committed treason. The material things were not important to him. But in early 85, he was facing a divorce, although he had had not told his current wife that he needed a divorce because he had promised rosario, who was now in the states, that they were getting married in august. So and rick knew he had to divide up his and nans assets. There werent a lot. Basically it was 20,000. Thats really all he needed. And he certainly could have come to the agency. We help our employees. And he chose not to. However, he never, ever would have been able to keep rosario in the style she had she thought she was accustomed to. Neiman marcus was and up the ladder, thats all she was concerned with. You indicate in the book that getting the manuscript vetted by the agency was a struggle. You finally got 90 of what you wanted approved, but you think this would be a story that the agency would want out. Why the difficulty . Sandra well, first, let me just tell you, we didnt start to write circle of treason until nine years after ricks arrest. The first time we put pen to paper. Then it was four years later, after several serious medical issues, that we had our first draft. We submitted it to cias publications review board for approval. It was painful. That first draft came back jeanne and i were shocked. It was pages of black. So it took us three years of back and forth, and i think a big part of the problem was the story of the assets. This is the secret world of spying. However, every one of those guys, they were gone. And the kgb certainly knew more about the operations than we did because they were able to interrogate them. There were some other things that the agency asked that we removed. They didnt tell us why. Although we sort of had an inkling. Times change. Things that might not have been classified when youre dealing with human beings, things that might not have been classified in 19 i dont know 2004. There can be a circumstance that would require that story not be released at that time. So, for the most part, i would say we were able sorry, sorry. For most part, yes, 90 , and the 10 , one where circumstances had changed, and the others were just stupid. In the sense, when you read the book youll see people, their first name, and the first initial of their last name. I dont know. I think it was like working for an insurance company. It was just what was on the rules and regulations. It didnt make any difference if these people had not retired under cover. It did not make any difference they had passed away 20 years earlier. It did not make any difference that their names were in books all over the place. So, finally, we just gave up on that and said, he heck with it. But i would say it was one of these it was just hard for them to accept that this kind of material should appear in public. But you paid for it. You mentioned that you did the straw poll and discovered that, amongst the investigators, for lack of a better term, you did a straw poll, and mr. Ames made people the most uneasy, whatever the gramar is in the wake of all we learned over the the last ten years and more about the brilliance and genius and manifests itself after years of experience. Did you ever sit around with them or articulate now what made you uneasy about him . Sandra it was his ego. It was so huge, to the point that even his posture changed. That was the difference when i saw rick when he left for rome, when he came back. Rick was a tall guy and always, as i say, slob, and slouched like this. He was erect. He was in charge of everything. He was smarter than anyone in the room. And we all knew that it certainly was not coming from cia. His career was a dead end. He was a gs14 and that was it. All of his classmates were rising through the ranks, but it didnt make any difference. You have never seen anybody with such a frightening ego. It really was almost frightening. It was so huge. And that was, as i say in the book, wasnt the rick ames i had known. He was a gentle soul. It was really a personality change. But you have to remember, we worked with all of these people, with a pretty small little group, and we had known them for years, and im certain if you ask the same question yourself, to your own organization, you can look in your office and say, that person would never be a traitor. Hopefully. And it was really one of those. And i know the guys in the bureau said, just cant believe were doing this. We said, trust us. Its just like jeanne and i could never find a spy in the fbi. We dont know the people. Even though we know some. We dont know the people and we dont know how the game is played. That does make a big difference. So, yeah, a lot of it is if we could never find a spy working for the chinese. The reason we couldnt do that is we dont know the chinese service. We knew the soviet services. We knew them probably better than almost any individual working in them. And you have to at times you have to think like the opposition. Its that old story, anybody there are a number of you here who saw george c. Scott in patton, when he said, rommel, you sob, i read your book, and thats really what it is. Thats part of it. Anymore questions . One more. If all this evidence and he was convicted, i have to say this rhetorically. Why was he given life instead of the Death Penalty . Sandra a good question. That all that was on the federal books. At the time, and i think this went back i am not positive but i think this went back years to frank church, the church committee. I think thats what it was, and i think it was death only in times of war, and might not even have been that. However, what did happen because of ames, the Death Penalty was put back on the books, and Robert Hansen faced death, but instead i think he got something even worse. He went to supermax in colorado. Bad place. Thats the reason. Was rosario a spy . And if not, what was she convicted of . Sandra i had to look this up. All honesty. Rosario was convicted of two things, espionage was one. And income tax evasion was the other. [laughter] she signed those 1040s. She did not know rick was spying until about a year their stories match on this one until about a year and a half before he was arrested. She found some note that it was obvious this was this had to do with the soviets. However, as it always said, she never once asked one question about the thousands of dollars, the bags bags of cash in the garage, and she spent every single cent she could. [laughter] so, its my personal opinion, those guys having to listen to those taps, something was going to happen to her. But thats the reason she got the five years. Okay . Thank you, guys, for coming. [applause] thank you very much, sandy will be up here. She is happy to sign copies of her book, which are for sale if you dont have one, at the Cash Register at the front. Thanks again. Sandra thank you. [inaudible conversations] on history bookshelf, here from the countries as known history writers of the past decade every saturday at 4 00 eastern. You can watch any of our